559. Are Christians Allowed to Curse? W/Douglas Wilson

Summary

Apologia Radio: Are Christians Allowed to Curse? (w/ Douglas Wilson)

Episode Date: February 13, 2026
Host: Jeff Durbin (with Luke)
Guest: Pastor Douglas Wilson
Theme: Examining the place of strong, harsh, and "dirty" language in the Christian life and witness, especially as discussed in Wilson's new book No Such Thing as Bad Words.

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into a provocative and often controversial question within the Christian community: Are Christians allowed to use strong or “curse” words? Pastor Douglas Wilson joins Jeff Durbin and Luke to discuss the biblical, theological, and practical dimensions of language, “bad words,” satire, and the role of strong or offensive language in faithful Christian communication—drawing on his books The Serrated Edge and the new No Such Thing as Bad Words.
The conversation aims to challenge pharisaical traditions while emphasizing that careful context and motivation are key.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Basis & Purpose of Strong Language

• Wilson's Writing: Wilson distinguishes his earlier book, The Serrated Edge, focused on satirical tone and attitude, from his new book about the actual words Christians use, not merely their tone.
  • “The Serrated Edge is a book about tone and attitude... This book, No Such Thing as Bad Words, is dedicated to another aspect: is there a list, a registry of words kept in heaven that Christians are not allowed to use?” — Douglas Wilson [08:01]
• No List of 'Bad Words' in Heaven: Wilson emphatically argues that there isn’t a divinely ordained, timeless list of forbidden words—context, purpose, and heart matter more.

Four Categories of 'Bad' Language

Wilson breaks down English objectionable language into:

1. Swearing (invoking God’s name wrongfully)
2. Cursing (wishing ill upon someone)
3. Obscenity (referencing things considered off-stage or indecent)
4. Vulgarity (coarse or crude talk, e.g., ‘bathroom humor’)
   • “There is swearing, there is cursing, there is obscenity, and there's vulgarity. ... The Bible prohibits all four. And in other places in the Bible, we have godly instances of all four.” — Douglas Wilson [23:36]

Biblical Examples of ‘Strong’ Language

• Obscenity: Ezekiel’s explicit sexual metaphor (read at the outset) and Isaiah’s “used menstrual cloth”.
• Cursing & Swearing: Paul’s “let him be accursed” (Galatians), OT oaths, and passages like KJV’s “he who pisseth against the wall”.
• Conclusion: The Bible itself, in certain contexts, employs harsh or shocking language for a holy purpose.

The Importance of Context and Heart Attitude

• Calculated, Not Flippant: Wilson stresses the difference between calculated, contextually appropriate use and flippant, habitual profanity.
  • “We're not talking about just sprinkling obscene words or bad words into your language as sort of all-purpose adjectives. ... Language is a tool and it's a tool to be used to the glory of God.” — Douglas Wilson [09:52], [10:21]
• Guardrails & Context: Critics will sometimes extract such words from their context to accuse speakers of indiscriminate cussing.
  • “They'll go through my writing to find all the jalapenos, and then they make a paste... and then they make a meme out of it... without any of the guardrails that I was very deliberately putting.” — Douglas Wilson [28:53]

Illustrative Moments—Collision with Christopher Hitchens

• Wilson’s Use of "Shit Happens": In debate with Hitchens, Wilson uses the phrase not out of carelessness but as a reductio ad absurdum to demonstrate atheism’s moral bankruptcy.
  • “If there is no God, then you have to just surrender to the way things are because shit happens.” — Douglas Wilson [16:39]
• Durbin’s Reflection: Durbin says such moments of directness force skeptics like Hitchens to “look at their feet” and reckon with the inconsistency of their worldview [18:28].

Christian Traditions and Pharisaical Boundaries

• The “Two-Mile Fence” Analogy: Christians often create ever-wider zones of traditional safety around actual biblical commands—eventually making common expressions taboo.
  • “Pretty soon we're sailing around in this little tiny square in the middle... And that's how a lot of Christians think of language.” — Douglas Wilson [34:20]
• Exaggerated Sensitivity: The hosts share personal stories of being rebuked for even saying “heck” or “gosh”. Wilson highlights how traditions not rooted in Scripture can become oppressive [36:00–38:13].

The Role of Culture in Language

• Fluidity Over Time: Words considered profane can lose their potency (e.g., “sucks”) or vary dramatically by culture (“fanny pack” vs. “bum bag” in the US/UK).
  • “Language is dependent upon context and there are different contexts... If you say the kids are cute little Dickens, well, that's shoot cussing that everybody forgot is shoot cussing.” — Douglas Wilson [51:16]
• Ministering in a Different Culture: Over time, missionaries or emigrants might adapt to “local color” out of necessity, not compromise.

Guiding Principles for Christian Speech

• Speech Must Be Purposeful and Edifying: Strong or offensive words may in rare cases serve truth or expose sin, but casual or angry use is always out.
• Personal Sensitivities Matter: Some believers will never feel free to use certain words—and that’s okay. The conscience must be respected.
  • “If a very pious little old sweet lady reads my book and is persuaded by it, I don't want her to change her personal pattern speech patterns at all.” — Douglas Wilson [39:35]
• The Goal: Not to advocate flippant or widespread cussing, but to free Christians from man-made rules and empower them to speak boldly and biblically.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Wilson clarifies scope at the start:
  “This is not an apologetic for thoughtless cussing.” [09:52]
• On using strong words with purpose:
  “I wanted that phrase to be the tip of a spear… Which is very different than someone who just sprinkles a bunch of cuss words into his language in order to be able to relate to the non Christians at work.” — Douglas Wilson [22:01]
• Durbin on shifting boundaries:
  “...There's all these rules that sort of are constrained. There's no more language left. And so this is super helpful, Doug, to understand that there's an appropriate use of language as a tool.” [36:00]
• Wilson on contextual example (“fanny pack”):
  “Right now, I know everyone in the UK right now is hating me right now because I'm saying, fanny, fanny, fanny pack… In America, we call them fanny packs. And over there, they would never use that word.” — Jeff Durbin [56:13]
• On conscious cultural adaptation:
  “After years of being around sailors like that, I didn't talk that way, but you just hear it all the time and get desensitized to it. ... My sensitivities got readjusted the way they ought to be adjusted.” — Wilson [55:39]
• On gospel vs. law:
  “All of a sudden we're trying to fix our Christian walk problems with law and with made up law but the only thing that addresses things like that is gospel.” — Wilson [37:35]
• On purpose in writing the book:
  “I wish that the pietistic Christians would loosen up a bit... She needs to be OK with the people who are in the battle, in the fray, and who are using this kind of language judiciously and for righteousness sake.” — Wilson [38:37, 39:35]
• On Bible’s own 'bad words':
  “In the King James version of the Bible, males are described as he who pisseth against the wall... That's just. Pisseth is KJV ordinary language. They're not being naughty or anything like that. But if you grew up in a fundamentalist church... they would never give you that verse.” — Wilson [53:25]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [07:02] — Introduction: Wilson distinguishes new book vs. Serrated Edge
• [08:26] — Are there forbidden words in God's eyes?
• [09:52] — “This is not an apologetic for thoughtless cussing.”
• [11:57-16:39] — Collision clip: Wilson with Hitchens using “shit happens” in a pointed argument
• [18:28] — Reactions to Christians using strong words in apologetics
• [22:01] — Calculated use vs. casual profanity; four types of “bad” language
• [23:35] — Bible’s prohibitions, yet also its own use of strong language
• [34:20] — The “two mile limit” analogy: tradition building extra, non-biblical boundaries
• [36:00] — Personal stories about oppressive Christian speech subculture
• [38:37-40:24] — Wilson’s hope for the impact of his book
• [41:41] — Was Seth Gruber’s use of “asshole” appropriate?
• [49:39] — Cultural differences: Ireland, words’ changing meanings, historical examples
• [53:25] — KJV’s “pisseth against the wall” and what it shows about cultural taboos
• [55:39] — Contextual desensitization and readjustment
• [56:13] — "Fanny pack" in cross-cultural hilarity

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Closing

• Key Takeaway:
  Scripture, context, intent, and edification—not tradition or cultural taboos—should govern Christian language. Occasionally, a “serrated edge” or pointed strong word has godly precedent, but careless, habitual, or angry cussing is never justifiable in the Christian life.

• Where to Get the Books:
  Both The Serrated Edge (revised) and No Such Thing as Bad Words are available from Canon Press, with release in March.

• Final Words:
  Durbin expresses gratitude for Wilson’s ministry and calls for listeners to embrace biblical boldness, not pharisaical scrupulosity.

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“We are going to be held accountable...for every idle word. So this is not an apologetic for thoughtless cussing. That’s not what we’re talking about.”
— Douglas Wilson [09:52]

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For those wrestling with these issues, the episode offers a bold, biblically rich, and pastorally nuanced framework for navigating speech, truth-telling, and the dangers of legalistic traditions.

Transcript

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[Jeff Durbin]

Non Rockabotus must stop.

[Douglas Wilson]

I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it.

[Jeff Durbin]

Are you gonna bark all day, little doggy? Or are you gonna bite? Delusional. Yeah, delusional is okay in your worldview, I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being so. You calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly okay. It doesn't really hurt. She hung up on me.

[Douglas Wilson]

What?

[Luke]

What?

[Douglas Wilson]

Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men. The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage. Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make.

[Luke]

Buddies, not to make corrosives.

[Douglas Wilson]

Right?

[Luke]

Don't go in the world. Make homies.

[Douglas Wilson]

Right.

[Luke]

Disciples.

[Jeff Durbin]

I got a bit of a jiggle neck.

[Douglas Wilson]

That's a joke, Pastor. When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

[Jeff Durbin]

Take an amazing journey to a place.

[Douglas Wilson]

That will blow your mind and move your mind so you will never be the same again.

[Jeff Durbin]

When she carried on her whoring so openly and flaunted her nakedness, I turned in disgust from her as I had turned in disgust from her sister. Yet she increased her whoring, remembering the days of her youth when she played the in the land of Egypt and lusted after her lovers there, whose members were like those of donkeys and whose issue was like that of horses.

[Luke]

Did we put an explicit.

[Jeff Durbin]

No, because I'm just reading. I'm just literally reading. I'm literally reading the holy words of God. So there's really no reason to. There's no explicit warning in the front of my Bible. Although maybe in some people's minds there should be nothing like starting to show off with a bang. Right, everybody? That was the Bible, everybody. And so very excited about today's show. This is Apologia Radio, the gospel heart around the world. You get more@apologia studios.com. that's a P O L O G I a apologia studios.com Go there, get all the past episodes provoked Shiologians cultish Apologia Radio everything. And when you guys sign up for All Access, you guys become partners in this ministry with us. And all of this content, everything that's happening with Apologia around the world, the millions and millions and millions, millions of people impacted. The people coming to Christ out of the cults, everything happening is because of you partnering with us. You get additional content with All Access, like the Academy, the full episodes of Collision, Ask Me Anything. The after show and more coming this year. We're working on all that stuff for you guys now. Thank you to everyone who's a part of this ministry with us. I'm Jeff, they call me the Ninja. That's Luke the Bear right there just starting off. As you guys are getting into the show right now, I do need to tell you about two very, very, very important things right now. And that is number one, next Tuesday. That's the 17th of February. Next Tuesday, I'm going to be at the state capitol in Illin with Senator Neil Anderson for a press conference inside the capitol. Want to invite the church in Illinois. We just had a meeting with pastors there. Such a fruitful time. So many of you guys are a part of this with us now. In Illinois, we have a bill of equal protection in the state of Illinois and Senator Neal Anderson is the one who put that one in. We're doing the press conference. We need the church to show up to be there with us. We're going to be at the Blue Room for the press conference. We need you to fill the hallways. Be there, invite your entire church, every pastor you guys know, to let the legislature there know that the church in Illinois wants to see justice established for the preborn. They don't believe that it's true. They don't believe that the church wants it. They don't believe that their constituents want it. A lot of pressure right now on Senator Anderson. Please pray for him. And let's go to show that this is the will of God, number one, justice for the preborn, but also for the church in Illinois. Then on the 20th, that is next Friday, February 20th, at the Georgia State Capitol, we're holding a press conference inside the Capitol itself. And so that is at 1pm no. Yes. 1pm for Georgia and sorry, 12pm for Illinois, 1pm for Georgia. Join us in Georgia. Come. We want to fill that place with over a thousand Christians there. And so we have so much support there from many different organizations and churches. And so we need you there for these things. So Illinois. Next Tuesday, 17th, 12pm state capital, Georgia, February 20th at 1pm in the state capital in Georgia. That's what's going on. Get the word out. Let everybody know. So I just started the show today with some very strong words, very strong words, very strong from the book of Ezekiel. And there's much, much more than that. And I am so excited today because I have my friend, our friend Douglas Wilson on the show today. He has written a book in the past that's been very helpful, a small book, very, very helpful. It's called the Serrated Edge. And if you don't have that in your library yet, make sure you sell your shirt and shoes to buy it. The Serrated Edge will bless you in a big way. And it's very important. And it really, that book speaks to speaking the word of God and even saying hard things using a serrated edge. Many Christians are, I think, fearful of using the hard words in the harsh language at times. And so that book is very helpful to look at scripture and see how God uses the serrated ed edge, when it's used and what the right context for it is. And I've, I think Doug has been super helpful on this point. And so he has a new book. A new book, Are Christians Allowed to Curse? And so thank you, Doug, for joining us once again on Apology Radio.

[Douglas Wilson]

Brother, great to be with you. Thank you.

[Jeff Durbin]

Absolutely. So the first thing I'll ask you, Doug, is as we get into all of this discussion, are Christians allowed to curse using kind of strong language? How is is this book that you've written different than the Serrated Edge? Because that book was so helpful.

[Douglas Wilson]

Yeah. The Serrated Edge is a book about tone and attitude. You can there's different kinds of satire. There's satire with a canoe paddle, you know, juvenileian satire where you just take dismantle the opposition, which is what Jesus does in Matthew 23. That that would be hard hitting satire. And then there's what's called Horatian satire, after the poet hor. Jane Austen is a satirist of that type, where she does all her work with needlepoint. It's just very deft and very light touch. And there's no cursing at all in Jane Austen's novels.

[Jeff Durbin]

Right, Right.

[Douglas Wilson]

So satire is one thing that people have objected to and so Serrated Edge is dedicated to that topic. This book, no Such Thing as Bad Words is dedicated to another aspect of that. And that is is there such a thing as a list, a registry of words kept in heaven that Christians are not allowed to use?

[Luke]

You know? Right.

[Douglas Wilson]

And I'm, I'm arguing no, there is no such thing in that sense. There's no such thing as bad words. Now I have on occasion, and I would argue on rare occasions used that kind of language.

[Luke]

Right.

[Douglas Wilson]

When I use that kind of language, there are Christians who object, some object to tone. That's the satire issue. Some people object to certain words they think are malam and say sinful in themselves. There's no righteous way to use that word. And so this book, no Such Thing as Bad Words is meant to address that particular problem. So the. But I do want to say right at the outset of this discussion, I know that there are probably some 15 year old boys who will be listening to this. And they say, oh boy, oh boy.

[Jeff Durbin]

They're so excited, Doug. They're thrilled.

[Douglas Wilson]

They are whizzed up. I heard from, I heard from Pastor Wilson, mom and Pastor Durb. I heard from these apologia radio said there's no such thing as bad words. Mom. And I would like to say at the beginning of the story of this episode to little Billy, whoever he is, that there are such things as bad words for you.

[Jeff Durbin]

Okay. Yes.

[Douglas Wilson]

You're approaching it in the wrong spirit entirely. Language is a tool and it's a tool to be used to the glory of God. Everything we say has to be for edification. The Apostle Paul tells us Jesus says that we're going to be held accountable in the judgment for every idle word that we utter. So this is not an apologetic for thoughtless cussing.

[Jeff Durbin]

Right.

[Douglas Wilson]

That's not what we're talking about. And we're not talking about just sprinkling obscene words or bad words into your language as sort of all purpose adjectives. That's not what we're talking about.

[Jeff Durbin]

Very good. Oh, I hope you guys hope you have your appetites whetted. Right now for the rest of the show today, this is a very important discussion. I think it's hopefully going to bring a lot of clarity as well. So, Doug, you had mentioned before that you are known for times for using a serrated edge and even using at times against the opponents of the Christian worldview, the commonly understood dirty words. That's a no, no word. You don't say that. And right. I remember the first time that I watched Collision and then I, I understood it and I was like, that's fantastic what you did with Christopher Hitchens. And then I, I used to show this, I used to show your film to, to groups of people, to other Christians, people at Bible studies kind of thing. And I was, was excited to see how people were going to respond to the moment where you addressed Christopher Hitchens in the pub. And here you are, a Christian minister, talk about the Gospel, defending the Christian worldview. And then you used a dirty word. And it was always interesting to see how people handled that. And maybe it's just, maybe it was wrong for me to put people into the situation, but I did. Okay, here we go. So I'm going to show everyone an example, I think, of what Doug is getting at at the outset and then I'll have you respond here. Doug, this is from the film Collision. Christopher Hitchens, debating and engaging with my favorite atheist in history. Sorry, Douglas Wilson, engaging with my favorite atheist in history, Christopher Hitchens, Your denunciations.

[Douglas Wilson]

Because I agree with them. I just, I think you have a very fine house with no foundation. You don't have. It's just sand under there. I want to know not what you denounce, but why you denounce it. That's what you won't do.

[Jeff Durbin]

Would you be willing to admit that at the end of the day, I'm not talking about personal justice, whether you have a basis for personal justice. I'm not talking about that. But at the end of history that there is any basis for cosmic justice in that scope, or would you be willing to admit no, in fact, there isn't. There is no rational basis for justice at the end of history. Some people are going to get screwed. Some people are going to have a really good time. And though you might, whether you have a reason to or not fight for justice, there is no ultimate justice at the Antist. Would you be willing to admit that?

[Luke]

Oh, yeah.

[Douglas Wilson]

I mean, I don't think one can.

[Luke]

Avoid the conclusion, unwelcome though it may be.

[Christopher Hitchens]

If there's a designer and a creator and a perfectionist, he isn't perfecting and loving all the time. Sometimes he's capricious, sometimes he's inattentive, sometimes he's incompetent, and sometimes he's very cruel. That's the minimum you can believe. Why are we created sick, created diseased, according to Pastor Wilson, created diseased and then ordered to be good. There was no rebellion against God.

[Douglas Wilson]

And if there was, why?

[Christopher Hitchens]

Why would he create us in such a form as to demand that we rebelled? The Eternal Father is the one who just won't quit and says, I own you. I've got you forever. We'll prevent you from growing up. We'll keep our species in the area where I said religion keeps it in its infancy. It's against freedom, it's against inquiry, it's against science. This is a wicked cult and it's high time we left it behind.

[Douglas Wilson]

I want you to give me the evidence for an objective moral standard that governs all of us. And you can't appeal to innate anything because those conflict. You can't appeal to the general consensus because those differ over time. You haven't given any evidence whatever for all your condemnations of this, that and the other thing. I can understand an atheist saying, there is no God. Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die. There is no God. And I'm going to embrace nine. I understand that. What I don't understand is the fierce puritanical denunciations of Jerry Falwell and all sorts. You know, all the different people who are doing, just doing their thing, doing what protoplasm does at these temperatures and under these conditions. Now, why would enunciation.

[Christopher Hitchens]

It's not unlike what the physicists of ordained said about the universe. It's not just stranger, or he put it queerer than we understand, it's stranger, queerer than we can understand. I'm quite happy that the arguments of ethics and morality of philosophy remain unresolved. See, I don't look for certainty.

[Douglas Wilson]

But you don't have to.

[Christopher Hitchens]

I don't look for a final teleological verdict. I know that I will always be arguing, why is it that the killing, the kicking of a pregnant woman in front of me is incredibly repulsive and yet I could demand the killing of her and her unborn child in different circumstances.

[Douglas Wilson]

You just said this argument will go.

[Christopher Hitchens]

On and probably can't be resolved. It doesn't mean we have to capitulate a situation or ethics or to relate. But it is not improved. It is not improved, let alone solved by the introduction of a supernatural authority.

[Douglas Wilson]

I will make argument.

[Christopher Hitchens]

The supernatural authority is of no help to us and it may order us to do things that a secularist would cringe from doing, such as murdering his son to please a stone aged idol.

[Douglas Wilson]

I'll make you a deal.

[Christopher Hitchens]

For example.

[Douglas Wilson]

I'll make you deal. You say that the basic questions of morality are unresolved. Here's the deal. Why don't you write like they are unresolved? Well, I. Virtually everything you write, you act like and you. And you write, I think many times correctly. You denounce as though they are completely and totally resolved. Look, Christopher, there is no God. Shit happens.

[Jeff Durbin]

All right, So I wanted to play that extended clip there so you can get the context of the conversation and the argument that's going on between Hitchens and Pastor Doug. So there's a dirty word, and that's a no, no word in Christian households. Christians never let those words cross their lips. Pastor Doug. And you said a dirty word and you're actually saying that there are no dirty words. There's no list of them in heaven, which probably startles a lot of Christians. They thought that there was a list of dirty words in heaven and you just used one.

[Douglas Wilson]

And that's linguistic Platonism, basically. Our language down here has to match. Our appropriate language down here has to match divine heavenly language in every respect. But we live in a fallen world. And what I was doing there with Christopher was a reductio. I was saying, if there is no God and we are all just the chance concatenation of atoms tumbling down the concourse of history, you can't object to anything. Right? Nothing. Yep. Right. And so consequently I was stepping in a reductio is where you step into someone else's premises, the car of their premises, and drive it into a tree. Okay, so what he was wanting to do, and Christopher throughout his life was a fierce atheistic puritan. He would denounce all kinds of things and he would denounce them as though they were objectively, truly moral, morally evil. And what I wanted him to see is, look, there is no God. If there is no God, then you have to just surrender to the way things are because shit happens. Now he doesn't want to look at some outrage and say that, but he has to say that. And putting it in that form makes it sort of. It's a in your face way of recognizing the reality of it. If I had said something like, Christopher, there is no God, at the end of the day, you can't denounce anything. That would have been true. And it would have been the same truth, but it wouldn't have stopped him.

[Jeff Durbin]

Right, right.

[Douglas Wilson]

That exchange that you just played was, Was confrontational and, and it stopped him with the issue at hand.

[Jeff Durbin]

That's right. And of course, you're. You're speaking his language in a way he understands. He's. He's probably seen the bumper sticker, right?

[Douglas Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jeff Durbin]

That's the point is that's what the. That's within the atmosphere. That's what they understand. That's the language that he speaks. He understands that. And so you're making sure that he looks. His feet. Look at your feet, Christopher. And that was potent. It was a powerful, powerful moment. And I, I've always said, Doug, about this particular film and your interaction with Christopher Hitchens, I've always encouraged people, you need to watch this. Of course, you can listen to the debate with Bonson and of course that classic. The classic debate. You can listen to debates with Christians and you should. Between Christians and atheists. But I've always encouraged people go and watch this interaction between Christopher and Doug. And the reason I've tried to encourage people to do that is that. And I've seen Christopher Hitchens debates, probably all of them with Christians, everyone that could possibly see. And, and, and it's clear that, that Christopher had the hardest time with you than any of his opponents, because you did have a number of times like this where you would make him look at his feet and you spoke to him in a way that he understood, and I think he really respected you for that. And it was, it was moments like this that really unraveled Hitchens regular methodology with Christians. He always had Christians on their heels. And in this way, you had Christopher on his heels many, many times.

[Luke]

That and post Millennial.

[Jeff Durbin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Douglas Wilson]

That was another thing. But I would argue if someone came to me and said, look, Philippians says whatever's pure, whatever's noble, whatever's lovely, you know, your language should be that. I would agree. That's what Paul tells us to do. But I would also want to argue that that exchange with Christopher was noble, pure, lovely.

[Jeff Durbin]

Yes, sure. No, I completely agree, Doug. Absolutely. So, but you say, you say the title of the book is no Dirty Words, right? No dirty words, no bad words.

[Douglas Wilson]

No such thing as bad words.

[Jeff Durbin]

No such thing as bad. No, sorry, I had a different title. It was sent over to me. Okay.

[Douglas Wilson]

So, yeah, it's gone through different iterations.

[Jeff Durbin]

Okay.

[Douglas Wilson]

Effing on the Blim Blam was one of them.

[Jeff Durbin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah. So no such thing as bad. Words. It's. That's interesting to. I think people hear that because Christians have adopted a particular language to get around the list of bad words in heaven. You know, like instead of the F word, we say fudge or fart balls or flip or something like that. You know, shucks or shoot or, you know, instead of. So could. Because we think that there is a list of bad words. We can. These are the. No, no words. We can ever say these words in a pure way. There's no context to say it in a pure way. And so we have different ways that we even make exclamatory remarks to avoid the dirty list of words. So, but I guess let's dig into that, though, because I think you're contextualizing and you're saying. You're saying, okay, here is an interaction with an unbeliever where I'm speaking to him according to his. His own worldview, his own understanding, the words that he uses. He's seen the bumper sticker. This is the way to stop the conversation and to expose the folly instantly. So that's a pure way to use that. But someone says, but, Doug, like, no bad words. And so am I just regularly allowed to, like, let this flow out of my mouth or if I have a tough moment, can I just. Can I use the F word? Is that. Yeah. Is that what you're saying?

[Douglas Wilson]

No. Yeah.

[Luke]

Okay.

[Douglas Wilson]

Yeah. That's not. Not what I'm saying. Part of the problem is when I. When I was using this language with Christopher, I was doing it in a calculated way, and. And the calculation had to do with the potency of the argument. I wanted that phrase to be the tip of a spear. Yeah. Which. Which is very different than someone who just sprinkles a bunch of cuss words into his language in order to be able to relate to the non Christians at work. Right, Right.

[Jeff Durbin]

Yeah.

[Douglas Wilson]

You know, that comes across to me as altogether artificial. Sort of a hello, fellow kids kind of thing.

[Jeff Durbin]

Yeah.

[Douglas Wilson]

You know, where it's. It's just simply trying to flatter or become one of the boys. That's not. That's not what I'm talking about. I think we should. We have to remember the antithesis all the time, and we have to be under the authority of Scripture all the time. And one of the things I lay out in this. In the book, in the. At the beginning of the book is that in English, there are four general categories of objectionable words. There is swearing, there is cursing, there is obscenity, and there's vulgarity. Okay, okay. So swearing would be, you know, God damn it. Cursing would be go to hell. Obscenity would be fu. Kind of language.

[Jeff Durbin]

Yeah.

[Douglas Wilson]

And then vulgarity would be junior high bathroom humor, you know, Coarse jesting, the apostle Paul calls it in Ephesians. Okay, There should be no coarse jesting. So you have swearing, cursing, obscenity and vulgarity. Now, the Bible prohibits all four. Okay? The Bible prohibits all four. And in other places in the Bible, we have godly instances of all four.

[Jeff Durbin]

Okay, yeah, that's very helpful. Yeah.

[Douglas Wilson]

Right. So basically, their mouths in Romans, the non believer, their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness. That's off the table. But then Paul says in Galatians, if we are an angel from heaven preached you a different gospel than the one you received, then God damn that guy, let him be accursed.

[Jeff Durbin]

That's exactly right.

[Douglas Wilson]

Okay, so you have ungodly cursing and godly cursing. Okay? Then it says, Jesus says, swear not at all. Don't swear by the earth beneath you or heaven above you. Jesus says not to swear. Okay, but then in Deuteronomy it says, you shall trust in the Lord your God and take your oaths in his name. In Hebrews it says, God could find no one greater to swear by, so he swore by himself, saying. Or the apostle Paul says, as God is my witness, I'm telling you the truth. Those are all oaths. Those are all instances of godly swearing. And yet there is clearly a category of ungodly swearing. So you have godly cursing, ungodly cursing, you have godly swearing, ungodly swearing, you have ungodly obscenity. Right? Paul says in Ephesians that it's shameful to even allude to what the unrighteous ungodly do in secret. Let there not even be a hint of that among you. So he's talking about obscenity, the dirty deeds of the dirty birds. But then you have the passage from Ezekiel that you read at the top of the show. All right, that is obscene. Off state. It is obscene. Obscene is something that is off stage. Basically, that's what the word means. It's something that you don't show directly. And then when you show it directly, there is a real obscenity in it. Another obscenity would be photos of abortion victims. Okay, that's an obscenity. We shouldn't have to be looking at this, but it's better to look at it than to pretend that it's not happening. All right, so you have obscenity, Godly obscenity. Ezekiel, and ungodly obscenity. Then you have vulgarity where you have got. You know, I alluded earlier, in Ephesians, Paul says, objects to crass joking, coarse jesting. Don't talk that way. Paul says, and yet we have your righteousness in Isaiah. Your righteousness is like a used menstrual. Menstrual cloth. And that's vulgar on two levels. That's simply a bodily function reference that everybody would find distasteful, but it would also have a layer of a religious taboo for the Jews, where your righteousness is like the pinnacle of this unclean thing. And so it's offensive language. And it's offensive language just in the very. That the word brings along with it. And so consequently, you have to say, all right, what are the contextual parameters that will keep my occasional use of such words? Godly. Yes, Now.

[Jeff Durbin]

All right.

[Douglas Wilson]

And that's the. Now, if you can't keep it. Godly, if it. If you can't keep it in the right lane, it's better not to use those words at all. But what happens is. And people have done this to me, it says, I don't talk. You know, I don't talk this way in ordinary discourse and ordinary conversation. I just don't talk this way. Occasionally, for effect in my writing or different places, I will do something like this. And what happens is my adversaries or opponents or critics will comb through my writing. I've written millions of words. They'll go through my writing to find all the jalapenos, and then they get the jalapenos, and then they make a paste out of all the jalapenos, and they put them all on one cracker. And then. And then they make a meme out of it. Wilson said this. And they just throw it out there without any context or any. Without any of the guide. Guide. What do you call. Guardrails?

[Jeff Durbin]

Yeah, yeah.

[Douglas Wilson]

Without any of the guardrails that I was very deliberately putting in the prose that led up to that particular use. They take all those away and then say, see, Wilson is just freestyling with his cussing. Well, no, that's. That's a slander. That's not what I do.

[Jeff Durbin]

Yeah, very good. That's very helpful, guys. I hope this is a blessing to you right now. We have more to ask, Pastor Doug. Very, very helpful. Thank you for that, Doug. That was. That was really great. We're going to come right back after this quick commercial break. So stay with us. Make sure you do all the things that YouTube likes like the like and the share stuff and so everyone else can see this. We'll be right back. This episode is brought to you by ion [e-mail] Go and check out the health benefits, the wellness benefits and longevity benefits of NAD treatments. NAD is nicknamed the fountain of youth for a reason. You have an abundance of this in your system when you're young. As you get older, it drops off. And now we found a way to get NAD into our systems. They do it through IV treatments, but they're very expensive and it's also extremely painful and difficult. However, Ion Layer found a way to get a high dose of NAD into your system through a medical patch you wear on your arm. You wear it for about 14 hours. You get a high dose of NAD treatment into your system and no pain at all. And it is a fraction of the cost of what you would pay for an IV treatment. In the coupon code, type in Apologia in all caps. They're going to hook you up with a great discount for an already amazingly cost effective product. And they bless Apologia studios and help us to stay on the air and do all these programs with you. Don't forget. Also, Ion Layer has added a glutathione patch as well. Glutathione, the master antioxidant. Go check out the health benefits of glutathione. I'm doing this stuff anyways. It's blessed my life in tremendous ways. And so if you want to focus on your health, wellness and longevity, nothing better in my mind than ionlayer.com for your NAD and Glutathione treatments. Ionlayer.com don't forget to put Apologia in all caps in the coupon code.

[Douglas Wilson]

Slime eating dogs, you scum sucking pigs. You sons of a motherless goat. Son of a motherless goat.

[Jeff Durbin]

Doug, who are you? Doug, can we, can we say that?

[Douglas Wilson]

Well, apparently you can play it.

[Jeff Durbin]

Doug. That's very helpful. That last conversation was particularly helpful. So obviously I think people can understand those concepts and how you can play between those two concepts biblically because you can't get away from it. Reading the Bible. I mean, there's some very strong dirty language that's used, but it's used, like you said, like calculated. There's a reason for it, a context for it. I like that. The point you made, Pastor Doug, about obscenities and what's obscene. And you mentioned the issue of like, you know, using, you know, pictures of aborted babies. And I think people would recognize that the difference between Thanksgiving Dinner with all your family gathered and someone starts tossing down pictures of aborted babies between the mashed potatoes and the turkey at the table. And then the difference between that and going to the Capitol or going to the abortion mill and showing those obscene photos, it's context matters, Correct?

[Douglas Wilson]

Context matters because these words are a linguistic thing. You know, it's part of language where we're seeking to communicate, we're not seeking to miscommunicate. And all communication depends on context. And so what. The example that you started with, I would describe, you know, in my book, I talk about someone saying that this was as black as the Earl of Hell's riding boots. Okay, well, that's, I would describe that as just colorful language, just metaphorical color, you know, so if, if someone says, I need to tell a story here. When I was in the Navy, I was in the navigation department. I was a quartermaster on a submarine. And we would go out into an operating area and the operating area was a square on the chart, and we would conduct our operations in that square. And we had a standard 2 mile limit inside the boundary of the operating area to make sure that we didn't go out of it. We just gave ourselves a buffer. And one time we had a bad navigation fix and the navigator told me to put a two mile limit inside the two mile limit. And so I did. And then I had the night watch and a nervous ensign came up to take the con and he saw what the navigator had done, so he was really nervous. So he had me put another two mile limit inside the two mile limit. And so pretty soon we're sailing around in this little tiny square in the middle, right? Because we've got a fence to guard us from the fence to guard us from the fence to guard us from the cliff. And that's how a lot of Christians think of language, right? Telling someone to go to hell. May God damn you to hell, is cursing. Okay, now if. And it might be Peter telling Simon Magus, may your money perish with you.

[Luke]

Right?

[Douglas Wilson]

That's, that's what, let's go to hell. Okay, let's go to hell. It could be a righteous thing or an angel giving a different gospel is being told to, may he be condemned. Or it may be that a road rage thing where you're talking about the driver ahead of you is going too slow, that, but if you tell him to go to hell, well, Then here's the 2 mile limit inside of that. If someone says, man, it's cold as hell today. Okay, yeah, you're not cursing Anybody, it's just a metaphorical expression. And then another 2 mile limit is heck, heck instead of hell, right? And there's some, and there are people who object to shoot cussing like that. You know, hex darns, shucks, all of that. And so they put another two mile limit inside. And pretty soon in this pharisaical approach, you're not anywhere close to anything that the Bible prohibits.

[Luke]

This reminds me of my favorite Babylon Bee article of all time where it said, parents for spring break or something, the homeschool parents take their kids to the Hoover. Darn.

[Jeff Durbin]

Well, I've struggled with that, Doug. When I came to Christ, one of the first things that went, started to go and sanctification started was on my mouth. I just had a foul, foul, foul mouth. And it's one of the very first things I began to experience conviction over. I didn't never even experience that before. And I felt convicted and I hated it and I didn't want to speak like that. But, but you're bringing up a good point is as I started to kind of grow out of really, I understood it was really from a heart that was just black and dark and, you know, dirty and that's where those words were coming from. But I, I struggled though, because as I got, you know, further into my relationship with the Lord and starting to walk with the church and everything else, that two mile limit thing started to happen and it became oppressive. Right? Like I even, I remember, I remember the times where I even used the word heck and a person chastised me and said, you may as well use the word hell, brother. I mean, you're saying heck as a replacement word. Or if I said, gosh, they were like, that's just a replacement word. You're just, you're, you're just trying to find a way out of, you know, blaspheming. And so stop saying gosh, stop saying heck. And I'm thinking to myself, well, what am I going to say if I bang my foot? Like, I can't say, you know, dang it, or you know, you know, that you're saying, you're saying, damn it, you're saying it. Yeah, I mean, whatever. What's the appropriate word as an exclamation or exclamatory remark when I'm hurt or something? There's all these rules that sort of are constrained. There's no more language left. And so this is super helpful, Doug, to understand that there's an appropriate use of language as a tool. And you use the word pharisaical And I think that's important for us to, to, to at least engage with is that even within the Christian church where we say the Pharisees are the bad guys, oftentimes we through our own traditions begin to have very pharisaical rules. It's just not, it's. The problem is, is, is the Pharisees, you know, could write it down and say these are the codes and these are the rules. We haven't written these down yet as Christians. You know, in our church it's just traditional.

[Douglas Wilson]

The Bible. The Bible says not to get drunk, right? And so some people say, here's our two mile limit. If you never drink anything alcoholic, you can, can never get drunk. There's a two mile limit. So you, you can't, you can't drink anything. And then someone else says, I've got a better idea. If you never come within five miles of a tavern, then, then you will never be tempted to drink. And if you never attempted to drink, you never. Well, all of a sudden we're trying to fix our Christian walk problems with law and with made up law, but the only thing that addresses things like that is gospel.

[Jeff Durbin]

That's right. So Doug, let me ask you because this is so helpful, what do you, what are you trying to communicate with this book? What do you, what do you ultimately hope happens with believers who read this book? They digest it. They're convinced with the biblical and rational argumentation over this subject. What do you, what do you want to, what do you wish to happen from this?

[Douglas Wilson]

Well, I wish that the pietistic Christians would loosen up a bit. Not in their own personal conversation. I don't want anybody to start using sprinkling words like this for no particular purpose. That's not what I mean by loosening up. This is a related topic. But for example, my parents were both teetotalers and they came out of that tradition of the, of the fundamentalist evangelical movement. They were teetotalers. But we moved to a town once and they checked out a church, a Baptist church, and they didn't join it because in order to join the church made them take an oath that they would not drink alcoholic beverages. Right? And they didn't. But they wouldn't take that oath. They wouldn't bind themselves to something unbiblical.

[Jeff Durbin]

Interesting.

[Douglas Wilson]

They knew that. So they knew that drinking was acceptable in scripture, but they personally weren't. They just didn't do it. They didn't care for it, but they wouldn't bind themselves to obey this man made law. It's the same way if a very pious little old sweet lady reads my book and is persuaded by it. I don't want her to change her personal pattern speech patterns at all. There's no need to. This is not a mandate to go start using these words. But it, but it does mean that you've. That she needs to be okay with the people who are in the. In the battle, in the fray and who are using this kind of language judiciously and for righteousness sake.

[Luke]

Right.

[Douglas Wilson]

Instead of freaking out when it happens.

[Jeff Durbin]

Right. It's a good. It's a good corrective. And so, Doug, let me give you an instance and just tell me what you think about this. So you know Seth Gruber? Yeah, yeah, Seth, a friend of mine just was speaking to him yesterday. He's a big help to us. He had a recent conversation, I think it was at a TPUSA event and. Prepare yourselves, everybody. I'm about to use a dirty word. And in the conversation, they were talking about abolition and things like that. And Seth said something that kind of resonated with me and I understood what he was saying. He said he fully understand. He fully agrees with equal protection and equal justice. He's all on board. Seth is going to be helping us with some of our bills as well. So he's. He's already there. But he said that he didn't want to title himself as an abolitionist, he said, because I think he said many abolitionists are. And he was talking about the behavior of. Of many people. Would you say that that could be an appropriate use an instance of a word like that to try to get at the main issue where we have people that use that title that are honestly abusive at times, abusive even in local churches. What would you say about that? Because a lot of people, he took a lot of heat for that. And so I'm curious is, would that be an instance there of trying to communicate to an audience this is a real problem of behavior? Can I use that dirty word then?

[Douglas Wilson]

Yeah. So I think that that's a justifiable use for this reason. If he's. Again, if this is a road rage incident and he's yelling that at the driver ahead of him. No, you. That's just out of line. You can't.

[Jeff Durbin]

You're just angry. You're just angry. You're just angry.

[Douglas Wilson]

Yeah. Right. And you're angry and you're using corrupt speech that, that displays that anger for us.

[Jeff Durbin]

Yeah.

[Douglas Wilson]

In, in this instance, he is using a word that highlights the hyper purist. Right. The people he's talking about are people who have their righteousness cranked up to 11 and they've got necks full of righteousness. And all that comes out of their mouth is unrighteous denunciations of brothers and unhelpful. It's just manifestly unrighteous. All being done in the name of righteousness. And that kind of language, in that kind of situation might be the needle that. That punctures that balloon.

[Jeff Durbin]

Good. Yeah, very good. Yeah. You know, a couple of years ago, I took some heat. I was at actually a fight LA feast conference. And I did my best, Doug, to make sure that I put it into context. And I explained ahead of time. Get ready for what I'm about to say.

[Douglas Wilson]

I think you did about 10 minutes. I think you explained beforehand. About 10 minutes.

[Jeff Durbin]

10 minutes of explanation just to make sure that I. I softened the blow as much as possible for the pietistic people. But I really meant what I said. I would say it again. I meant to say it. It was calculated. I even asked for permission from my elders the night before, explained to them what I was going to do. So it was calculated that far in advance? Not even the night before. It was calculated way before that. And man, oh, man, there were the articles written and the Christian media and platforms writing about me.

[Luke]

Doug knows nothing about that.

[Jeff Durbin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cursing. The cursing pastor. And because I use that dirty word. I said the word prepare yourselves. I called it woke. I took a lot of heat for a long period of time. People saying, you know, I'm not going to support your ministry anymore. But I thought to myself, this is just compelling to me because. Because at moments, at pivotal moments like this, in. In redemptive history, you see the prophets making sure that they speak to something that is so spiritually devastating, so clearly and so powerfully, and they use those same dirty words. And I thought to myself, get it? I don't understand how Christians, you know, and you made the point of the list. You use the. You use the word on the list that's not to be used. And yet I'm thinking to myself, but are we not reading the Bible? I mean, this is all throughout Scripture. And so, yeah, I took. I took a lot of pain for that.

[Douglas Wilson]

Yeah, there's. There's debate about this. But in. So I'll mark that. But in Philippians, for example, Paul says, he, He. He describes the righteousness, the righteousness that he had before as a Pharisee as so much scubalon. Okay? So much scubalon. Now the King James renders that as dung, okay? And you could say manure as. You know, one time Harry Truman was talking about, they're visiting a farm or something, and Truman was just talking about, look at this manure, Manure here. And someone came up to Mrs. Truman and said, you know, could you get your husband to quit saying manure? And she said, you have no idea how hard I had to work to get him to start saying manure. Now, I could say dung or excrement, but that doesn't have the punch in the mouth feel that. That I think Skubalon had.

[Jeff Durbin]

Right, right, right.

[Douglas Wilson]

And so if. So when you. When you use language like this, the only other way I think you could get that would be if I did a, you know, a message translator or the. Some very loose paraphrasing and called it dumpster scrapings. You know, all our righteousness apart from Christ are worthless, vile, excrement, dog. And when you talk that way, it is. People get upset because you triggered them. Because they were told many times when they were a little boy or little girl that you never, ever, ever say these words. Now, I've got a friend who is a great story. A friend who one time offended a lady in his. He was a preacher. He offended a lady in his church, and he couldn't figure out what it was. And he talked to her. Have I said something to offend you? Yes, it was something in a sermon. He couldn't imagine what he could have said in a sermon that would have so offended her. And he went over to her house and could you please tell me what word I used? And she said, I can't, I can't. I was taught never to say this word. And he was. He finally said, could you write it down for me? And so she said, yeah, I could do that. And see, she wrote it down. And he looked at the paper and said, liar. And she'd go. He said, liar. Well, she'd been taught when she was a little girl, you never, ever say that word. Well, people. People bond with rules like that. Okay. And they say, okay, that really is completely off limits. And one of the. One of the examples, and this is something that. That I budget for in my own experience when I was a young man, when I was a teenager, the word sucks.

[Luke]

Yeah.

[Douglas Wilson]

Was. Was the. That was the equivalent of the F word.

[Jeff Durbin]

Yeah, it was like that for me, too.

[Luke]

Yep.

[Douglas Wilson]

Okay. And if I had ever used that expression around my mom, I would have been slapped into the middle of next week. Week. You know, it was. It was. It was just off limits. And that had an Impact on me. Right. I. To this day, in. I hear other Christians using it in. Not in the calculated way that we're talking about here. It's just used in common discourse. Right. And I don't. And I don't. Because of how I was. How I was taught as a kid. All right? And there's certain. Certain things where I've seen my way clear biblically to use these words when it accomplishes my goals. But there are some words like sucks or the. Your earlier use of a hole is. I just don't do. I just don't do that because of how I was brought up. I would find another creative way to get the same impact. Right. And I think some people, it's that way with all of those words.

[Jeff Durbin]

Right.

[Douglas Wilson]

And they. And they just can't get around it.

[Luke]

Yeah, I. I appreciate what you just said, Doug. That resonates well with me. I was just sitting here thinking. I. I'm sure very similar to you. I was raised in a very legalistic Northern Baptist environment. And, you know, if you even thought, like, if you even thought a bad word in your head, you're probably going to hell. Like, you know, sort of a thing. And that's been a real challenge for me over the years, is just kind of getting out of that pharisaical, pietistic mindset. And so I appreciate. I appreciate that a lot. What you're just saying, this is. This has been super helpful. I do have. Well, I guess I'll do this. I have one more question. Kind of switch topics a little, because I wanted. I wanted to get your thoughts on how culture comes into play here. And I specifically am thinking of, like, I don't know if you've been to Ireland, for example.

[Douglas Wilson]

Yeah.

[Luke]

You know, like, okay, so you know that they use the F word in some very impressive ways. Like it's poetry. And it's not. Not that I'm justifying using the F word, and it's still appalling, but sometimes you're more like. I'm actually impressed at how you use that word just now.

[Jeff Durbin]

Like an artist.

[Luke]

Yes, just exactly. You just paint like a paintbrush, and you're just going to work there. But, like, how does culture come into play then? Say so say you're going to a place like Ireland where, you know, you. You can get away with maybe saying some of those words you can't get away with here and other places. Like, how would that come into play in this conversation?

[Douglas Wilson]

Yeah. So I wouldn't. I wouldn't describe that as getting away With, I would describe it as moving from one linguistic context to another. If, if you just visit Ireland for a week's vacation, I would just notice what they're doing, come home again the wiser. But if, let's say you had, you were moving to Ireland, administer there, and you're going to live there for the next 30 years, 25 years into it, you might find yourself having acclimatized, right? Because language, language is dependent upon context and there are different contexts. So, for example, a few examples of this. If you call someone, you visiting a family and they just had a little baby and you going out after the pastoral visit, you call him, call the baby a cute little son of a gun. Okay? Nobody is going to think anything of it.

[Christopher Hitchens]

Right?

[Douglas Wilson]

But son of a gun is originally the son of a prostitute because the, the British Navy used to supply prostitutes to the sailors. And when a prostitute got pregnant, nobody knew who the father was, and so that was the son of a gun. Okay? Now that, that's an example of a linguistic expression that has had all the energy drained out of it. It's just an expression. Or if you say the kids are cute little Dickens, well, that's shoot cussing that everybody forgot is shoot cussing. Dickens is the substitute for devil. People know that shoot is a substitute, and they know that darn is a substitute, but they don't know that Dickens is a substitute. Okay? Or if someone is trying to write a medieval, you know, graphic novel or something about Robin Hood and one of the characters swears odd bodkins. You know, odd bodkins or zounds. Right. Zounds is short for God's wounds. Okay? That's an oath. An oath appealing to the wounds of Christ or odd bodkins for modern readers. It just sounds kind of quaint and medieval, but it's God's little bodyguns. God's little bodies referring to the host. The host and the Lord's supper. Right. So, and I, I just used the example of sucks having changed. Its, its, its potency has drained.

[Luke]

Yeah.

[Douglas Wilson]

Over the last, over the last 40 years. And now it means mildly unpleasant. And, and before it was a lot of voltage in it. So if someone said, hey, is it possible that in a Christian Republican 500 years from now that the F word is going to be acceptable in common? Yeah. I'd say stranger things have happened than that. Yeah. Right.

[Luke]

Yeah.

[Douglas Wilson]

Right. So a good example right out of the Bible is in the King James version of the Bible, males are described as he who pisseth against the wall. So when David is going to go down and kill Nabal and all of his. All the males down there. He was talking about. No one who pisseth against the wall is going to be left alive. And that's just. Pisseth is KJV ordinary language. They're not being naughty or anything like that. But if you grew up in a fundamentalist church and you were in an Awana Bible memory program, they would never give you that verse.

[Jeff Durbin]

Yeah, right. And if you raised your hand in the Juanas there and said, hey, teacher, can I do take a piss? You might get smacked into next week.

[Douglas Wilson]

That's right.

[Jeff Durbin]

But it's in the King James. It's in the King James.

[Douglas Wilson]

Exactly. So consequently, when you go from one culture to another, you have to be mindful of how distinct is this culture.

[Jeff Durbin]

Oh, yeah.

[Douglas Wilson]

Is it. Is it a corrupt culture or is it a subculture? So, for example, when I was in the navy, in the submarine service, that was a subculture. There were certain things on the. On the boat that there was no clean name for.

[Jeff Durbin]

I bet.

[Douglas Wilson]

Right. And then after a while, after years of being around sailors like that, I didn't talk that way, but you just hear it all the time and get desensitized to it. And I remember one time I watched a movie on the submarine that they'd showed, and I thought it was really funny. And then it was re. Released after I was out of the Navy and I was married now, and I thought, oh, that was really funny movie. I'll take Nancy to go see it. And so we went to it and, you know, good grief.

[Luke]

Watch your mouth there, Doug.

[Douglas Wilson]

Yeah, What's. What's going on?

[Jeff Durbin]

You're like, I don't remember it like this.

[Douglas Wilson]

That's right. Because it had just become part of the wallpaper of my brain.

[Jeff Durbin]

Right.

[Douglas Wilson]

People talk that time, and I didn't see. I didn't notice anything in the movie. And then after I was out of the Navy and I was hanging around Christians all the time and nobody talked like that, my sensitivities got readjusted the way they ought to be adjusted.

[Jeff Durbin]

Right.

[Douglas Wilson]

It really. We should labor to speak in all purity and nobility and loveliness and so forth.

[Luke]

Forth.

[Jeff Durbin]

Right.

[Douglas Wilson]

So basically, I believe that these words are lawful, but they should be used very, very sparingly. All right. Very sparingly. Because you don't want to wreck them.

[Jeff Durbin]

Very good. I. Look, you remember early on in Apology Radio's history, I don't even know how it ultimately came up. We. We had a. We had a strong opposition to Men wearing fanny packs. And we talked about it just casually, like, men wearing fanny packs. What's with a fanny pack? And, you know, we just said the word fanny, like, and right now, I know everyone in the UK right now is hating me right now because I'm saying, fanny, fanny, fanny, fanny pack. And they're like, it's really hurting their ears right now. And we. We were notified, Doug, by our. Our friends in the UK and in Ireland. They were like, please, I was listening to this with my children in the car. Could you please stop saying fanny pack? And I was like, like, why? And they're like, we don't call it that. It's called bum. It's called a bum bag. And. And I was like, well, what's fanny? And they were like, explaining it. And I said, I'm very sorry, but I can't. You know, it's just that's. In America, we call them fanny packs. And over there, they would never use that word. It's bumbag. And I'm sure people are using Google right now to figure out what I'm saying. If you don't know.

[Douglas Wilson]

That's right.

[Jeff Durbin]

Yeah.

[Douglas Wilson]

One time my. My daughter was in another country and she was. Was having a language problem at a. At a coffee joint and was trying to communicate that she wanted two coffees. And you just don't do that, you know?

[Jeff Durbin]

Wait, I'm missing something.

[Luke]

It's. It's like. It's the middle finger. Oh.

[Jeff Durbin]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, that's right. Yes, exactly. Very good. Is that why they do that in Germany? They do one, two. I don't know. What, they go backwards? I don't know.

[Douglas Wilson]

I don't know.

[Jeff Durbin]

There's something to that. All right, so quick commercial break, everybody. We're going to come right back. More Pastor Doug tell you guys how to get the book. And, and, and yeah, it's. I'm so grateful for you, Doug. This is such a great conversation. So stay with us, guys. Do all the things, the likes, the shares, everything. Be right back.

[Luke]

This video is brought to you by amtech Blades. We are very excited to be partnering with amtech. Bill Rapier, long time Navy SEAL dev group operator, amazing brother and friend looking for a battle ax to carry on your person to chop some wood. They've got you covered. Looking for a blade to carry on you every day. Also got you covered. Look at this. I gotta check my mail. What do we got going on here? Oh, look how sharp that is. What is this? Oh, 5% off. You can go to amtac blades.com Put apology in the coupon code. Get 5% off your order and he will match that and give 5% to End Abortion Now. Again, amtech blades.com we're grateful for them. Check them out.

[Jeff Durbin]

Welcome back, everybody. Great conversation with Pastor Douglas Wilson. Doug, I've seen the Lord using you a lot over the last six months. Getting a great opportunity to give a solid proclamation of the gospel and the word of God and multiple different platforms. So I've just been so thankful to see all of that. And now you've written, which. We've talked about this before. Doug, I don't know how you write so much. I mean, I know how you've explained it, you know, you know, plotting just a little bit at a time, but I still don't understand how you write so much. Such helpful stuff. So I will. I will recommend to everybody, number one, get the book, the Serrated Edge. Again, if you don't have that, you should get that. It's a little book. It's not overwhelming.

[Douglas Wilson]

It's.

[Jeff Durbin]

That's so, so helpful. And now also get this book. And it is no such thing as. No such thing as bad words. No such thing as bad words. Doug, tell everyone how they can get it, where to go, all of that.

[Douglas Wilson]

Yeah, Ken. A revised and updated version of Serrated Edge is being released by Canon Press in March next month. And no Such Thing as Bad Words is also releasing in March, March 17. And both are available for pre order now, I believe. Canon Press.

[Luke]

Did you intentionally release that on St. Patty's Day?

[Douglas Wilson]

No, I didn't. Somebody else might have.

[Jeff Durbin]

Works out of Ireland. It works out perfect.

[Douglas Wilson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jeff Durbin]

It is a. It's a fun, different culture over there for sure. And I love how they say cow. Caillou. Caillou. Caillou. Yeah. Took me while even to figure out how to do that. Doug, so blessed by you and grateful for everything you're doing. I don't know. But besides this, what's. What's new? What's happening in Moscow right now? Any. Any cool things or exciting things to report the Lord is doing?

[Douglas Wilson]

We are. I'm taping this for or recording this with you from Canon Press's new studio. All right, so. So we've moved into some impressive digs here. We're enjoying that very much.

[Jeff Durbin]

Oh, awesome. Excellent. Well, you bless our life, Doug. We're super thankful for you, man. And looking forward to. Looking forward to getting together with. And I can testify for sure. I've known Doug for many years. He's one of my, one of my heroes and spent time eating together, serving together. And I've never, never heard Doug cuss ever. Except when he's writing and going after unbelief and sin. That's right. Which is appropriate. So there you go. Thank you, Doug. Me. Bless us, brother. Thank you so much.

[Luke]

Thanks, brother.

[Jeff Durbin]

All right, everybody, hope this is a blessing to you guys today. Thank you for joining us on Apologia Radio. Do want to encourage you if you have not. So Please go to apologiostudios.com and get your free, completely for free, Bonsen U account, get access to Bonson u, all of Dr. Greg Bonson's teachings, his seminary lectures, all that stuff. Top tier theological education, completely for free for you. And as I always say, a big thank you to everybody who's all access with this ministry. You are helping to pay for Bonson U to be free, because it's not actually free. Free to do that. It costs money to actually have that service for others. And so you guys are blessing people with, with some amazing theological education. But if you don't have your Bonsa account, please go get that. It is completely for free. You need to have that. It'll bless you. His study through the book of Proverbs will truly bless your life. I mean, it's his sermons from church lectures, it's his debates, it's his literally seminary classes. So if you want to learn about philosophy and apologetics, learn how to defend the Christian faith. Faith you're not going to get better than. Dr. Greg Bonson is one of the greatest in the history of the Christian church. And so if you don't have that yet, guys, do it. It's. It's free. And, and so go pick that up. And I want to remind everybody, if you're just getting into this today, we have some big stuff happen. Actually, let's do this. Can, since everyone's here, can you just do a kind of live report as to South Dakota and what happened in South Dakota? Let's just let everyone get inside. What's going on?

[Luke]

Yeah, so we. I just literally got back yesterday from South Dakota, from Sioux Falls, and it's, it's interesting. Sioux Falls is, is the largest city in, in South Dakota at 180,000.

[Douglas Wilson]

Wow.

[Luke]

And they are the 121st largest city in the nation.

[Jeff Durbin]

Wow.

[Luke]

So not a lot of people there.

[Jeff Durbin]

Not a lot at all. No. That's very small.

[Luke]

Yeah. So it was good. We had, we had a great turn to the pastors meeting and so we had a bill that Went in last week, got voted out of Committee 8 to 5. But that we were very encouraged for the first time. And so there's no clinics in South Dakota. The only thing, the only way you can have an abortion in South Dakota is by getting the pill shipped in, which is great, obviously, but this has never been done in South Dakota before, an equal protection bill. So we had a. We had a. Someone in the House, Representative Randolph in the House, and then one in the Senate as well. And then. So got voted out of committee. But then they tried. Did you see the smoke out they tried to do.

[Jeff Durbin]

Yep.

[Luke]

So that's actually loudschlogger's movement. He invented that move. He was telling us. But so they tried to do a smoke out in the House, which essentially forces it to go to a roll call vote. And why this is important is because a roll call vote makes every one of those legislators go on record voting for or against it. And the speaker of the House, who's a conservative Republican, who Zach knows very well, he. He wouldn't allow it and shot that down and essentially did a yay or nay. So. So that the people that were against the equal protection bill could not go on record. And just so cowardly.

[Douglas Wilson]

Yeah.

[Jeff Durbin]

They want the record of it.

[Luke]

Yeah. So that was just. We just did this week. We've got a team there on the ground now in South Dakota. We had a great meeting. We're thankful for everyone that came. And I'm excited to just see, you know, how the Lord works going forward there.

[Jeff Durbin]

Yeah. If you didn't see. See last week's episode of Apology or Radio, you guys go pick it up after this. Go check it out. We played some clips from South Dakota and what took place there. Obviously, it's discouraging and disheartening at points, but it's also very encouraging to see we have legislators now in the hearing standing for the bill, arguing against the bill. We have. It's. God is advancing this in. In truly incredible ways. So. So go check that out. We played clip from all of that. And so also, if you're just getting onto the episode today, wanted to remind everybody two very, very, very important events happening next week. Number one is in Illinois, in Springfield, Illinois, where the Capitol is inside the Capitol building, the Blue Room press conference. I'm going to be there with Illinois pastors and leaders and others doing a press conference with Senator Neil Anderson, one of the heroes of Illinois, such a courageous man. Pray for him. It is extremely difficult to do this and to have the kind of courage to actually do this bill and so please pray for him. But that press conference, we need you there. You may be thinking like what's the real benefit of me driving up to Springfield? It means everything because you need to be able to show in your state, the legislators that the church in Illinois stands for this and wants justice. We need you there. Having your body, your face, your hands there is vitally important. And so if you can move heaven and earth, if you can, to be there at noon or before noon so that you're standing there and everyone sees you there at the state capitol in Illinois, in Springfield. Be there next Tuesday the 17th. Stand together with us and with the church in Illinois. Bring your pastor, bring your congregations, fill the Capitol up with support for this bill of equal protection. Let the legislators know that it is the church in Illinois that wants to see justice and only justice. And so please come, make a way to come and it will be such a blessing to have you there next next week on Friday at 1 o' clock and at the state capitol in Georgia, we're doing inside the middle of the Capitol. I think it's technically the second floor. It's the main big open space there. It's beautiful, actually. Beautiful puts, puts ours to shame. Capital. We're going to do a press conference there.

[Luke]

Take much to put our.

[Jeff Durbin]

That's right. That's right. We have a number of leaders and pastors from Georgia coming in. Just got confirmation today that we're actually also going to have Georgia pastor and ex military, awesome soldier. If you haven't seen his episode on Sean Ryan, go see it. John Lovell is going to be joining us at the Capitol as well, speaking at the press conference. Love that guy. He's such a faithful man, strong man of God. And so anyway, it's going to be one o' clock, Georgia Capital next Friday the 20th. Please join us. We're hoping to have a thousand plus Christians, pastors, leaders from across Georgia. So get a bus, bring your vans, tell your church, show up. Here's why you need to hear this. In Georgia right now, what's happening is historic. We've, we've had a couple of historic moments over the years in what we're doing to fight against this evil. The, the big, big one of historic was in Louisiana, the first bill of abolition that went to the hearing, passed the hearing and went to the floor. It was a huge moment and that was historic. But this one's historic in the sense that most of the time for these bills of abolition you only have a handful of courageous legislators, a Small handful. Like, if you have five to nine sponsors, co sponsors, that's a big deal. That's huge in itself. Sometimes it's just one or two or three. It's been like that in the past in Georgia. Right now we have. I forgot what the number was at this point. I think it was 27 or 28 co sponsors on the bill in the House in Georgia. That is historic. It is huge. And so we have so much going on in Georgia right now. And so the legislators are behind it. They need to know that the church is behind it. They will respond to the people. They represent the people. And so if we fill the Georgia capitol up with Christians and pastors from across Georgia, it will be a testimony to the legislators. You can be courageous. You can be. You have space to be. Wes said something powerful, Luke, while we were in Illinois. He said, cowardice is contagious. Cowardice is contagious. And he said, but so is courage. Courage is contagious.

[Douglas Wilson]

Oh, yeah.

[Jeff Durbin]

And more so, I think. Yeah. But you do see that, for sure. You know, you surround yourself in a legislature with a bunch of people who fear men and not God, and they're all like, well, this isn't going to work. And we're afraid and all the rest. That gets contagious. And it influences all the legislators to just yield because it's cowardice. And by the way, book of Revelation says that cowards go to hell. It's a sin that'll send you to hell, but it's contagious. And you see that all the time in a legislature. We'll see, you know, one or two courageous legislators, and then the rest are just, you know, just swimming in this cowardice. And they try to influence the courageous legislators. No, come with us to the fearing of man. Come with us to yield and come with us to compromise. Come with us to pragmatism. That's what you see constantly. And so we need courage. Courage. And you already have a lot of courage on display in Georgia, a lot of it. And so help to embolden them by please showing up. Yes, we need your prayers, but we need you to be there. Please show up. And the last thing you can do to say this briefly is please, please go to endabortionnow.com and please give financially, we are a small ministry that God is using to bring a lot of damage to this darkness. But man, oh, man, do we need you to stand with us. Because I'll tell you, it does cost to be able to go to the estates to do these meetings. To gather the church to do all of this and get these bills in, to do all of this, it takes a lot of work, a lot of time, and it takes money. And we do not even ask for or have the multi million dollars budgets of some of these major organizations that are just perpetrating partiality and regulation. We're working for the abolition of abortion. And it's working. We're getting there. And we're doing it on a shoestring budget in comparison. But we do need, we need your help. Please, please show up to these events, please. And please give financially because we need you, we need your support to do this, to pull this off. And so big thank you to everybody who is a part of this with us and has been many of you since the very, very beginning. God bless you for that. And so quickly also, as we end this, go to apologiastudios.com, go to the Apologia store, Apologia Studios store. You have lots of tracts you can hand out. There's tracts for Mormons, there's basic gospel tracts, Hope for Tomorrow tracts for people who are struggling with depression or suicide. You have tracks to use at the abortion mills to go out to do the abortion mill ministry. And so you also have swag and gear and T shirts and coffee mugs and all that stuff. And also you can get coffee as well pre sip and all that's there at Apologia Studios at the store. And so just go check out what we have, guys.

[Luke]

Yeah, and I was gonna say too, I mean, as far as an abortion now, I mean, we have. Guy keeps dropping bills. We just found out today that there's a House and Senate bill in Tennessee.

[Jeff Durbin]

Tennessee.

[Luke]

That literally just dropped today. We still have. Well, there's a one in Iowa that dropped last week that's still in play. We have one in Idaho, still working on that one. And they're just, they keep coming and it's just.

[Jeff Durbin]

And Oklahoma. Yeah, Dusty Divers yesterday dropped Oklahoma. It's happening in Oklahoma as well. Praise the Lord.

[Luke]

So they just, they keep coming. And you know, it's basically just Pastor Jeff and myself here and Daryl from Red State.

[Jeff Durbin]

It's overwhelming.

[Luke]

That's about it. We can only, we can only do so much.

[Jeff Durbin]

Let's just. Can we say it to everybody? It's like total transparency here. We're not special people. We're not superheroes or anything like that at all. It's overwhelming. It is. I was. Yesterday I was on the phone, Luke, from 8:00am until probably 7 or 8:00 clock at night. I was consistently on the phone with people in Illinois, different senators and then Georgia and different women who are helping us, women who have aborted their children that want to speak at the press conference. And just I was on the phone all day long on top of all the other ministry things I have to do as a. A local pastor. And so it was overwhelming. Today was. Is really the same. And so, yeah, it's a. We're a very small team here, guys. Very small. All we work together with pastors and leaders from across the country and different organizations. We're all together in this. But End Abortion now is very small. Yeah, Very, very small and small. A small amount of resources and so. Yeah.

[Luke]

Did you get my voice message about the lady in Arkansas?

[Jeff Durbin]

Yes. Yes.

[Luke]

So this is, this is a bar. I'm gonna just drop this here right now. But we're trying to figure out if this is nationwide or if it's just Arkansas. But the, the Arkansas Right to Life puts out a questionnaire for their candidates, those who run it. Running. Running the legislator and they give them a pro life grade. Right. So one of the questions this year, which is new, they asked if. If the candidate would support equal protection. If they're committed to support equal protection. Well, we. There is a candidate in Arkansas who does. Who is committed to support equal protection. And they go got not so high of a grade from the. The Arkansas Right to Life because of that. And so like this, we. People think we're crazy when we say it's. It's the National Right to Life and groups like that that are actually harming our bills. It just happened in South Dakota. It was the head of the South Dakota Right to Life who came out and lied about the bill and put an end to it. But they're actually now harming those running for office who will protect the Lazer preborn neighbors. And when I heard that, I was like, that's really a huge deal. And so just, you know, want to make people aware of that. Like I said, we don't know if it's nationwide. We're trying to figure that out. We're looking in that. But for sure it happened in Arkansas. Treachery.

[Jeff Durbin]

Very much so. You want to point everyone to the last stuff we have all the people we love and support.

[Luke]

We already talk about amtech. So speaking of bills, we can just. Bradley Pierce, we love him. He's on last week week he's been talking about Busy man because he's flying all over to go to all these hearings and even the One in South Dakota wasn't in Sioux Falls, it was in Pierre, which is like in the middle of nowhere. And it's impossible. You can't. I don't even know if you can get a direct flight into pier. But anyways, Bradley's also runs a heritage defense and if you are homeschooling your kids, please go to heritage events and sign up. Get your first first month free with apology and the coupon code and just protect yourselves from three letter agencies. And I think that's everything.

[Jeff Durbin]

Our wealth. We had to.

[Luke]

Oh, Dominion. Yes, Dominion Wealth. You saw the commercial? Being sorry. Grateful for them. We had them on a couple weeks ago, man. They're just awesome dudes.

[Jeff Durbin]

Yeah, three or four weeks ago we had them on.

[Luke]

Yeah. And grateful for them. So you can go to Dominion, wealth or no, sorry, it's reform money. And get a free consultation from them. And I highly recommend it.

[Jeff Durbin]

Absolutely. Thank you guys so much. Many of you constantly send messages of encouragement, blessing and support. Thank you for your prayers. Your prayers really mean everything to us. So please continue to pray for us as ministers, pray for us as a church, pray for these ministries. We're thankful for all of you guys. We're gonna head over and do an after show at apologiastudios.com so head over after show right after this@ apologiastudios.com if you don't know what that means, then get all access, be a part of this ministry with us and then you get the after show as well as well. We'll spend a few minutes with you guys over there and I want to thank you guys. Please pray for us next week, Big week next week. And we will catch you again on Apologia Radio.