Michael Tson (3:38)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Luke the Bear (3:40)

But I got Michael Tson. Is that French Canadian?

Michael Tson (3:45)

No, dude, it's German. Von Tyson. Don't insult.

Luke the Bear (3:47)

Oh, it's German.

Joe (3:48)

German for tiny, don't bring.

Luke the Bear (3:56)

I didn't know that was German. I thought it was French. I'm German.

Michael Tson (3:59)

Yeah. Don't.

Luke the Bear (4:02)

How did you.

Michael Tson (4:02)

I was.

Luke the Bear (4:03)

You're literally German.

Michael Tson (4:06)

Sorry, I got nowhere to go. Okay, move on.

Luke the Bear (4:11)

This is your second timeline. Well, we did a mashup, and of course, Dr. Job I'm very excited about to have with us today.

Joe (4:17)

Good to see you, Luke. Always good to be in Phoenix with you. And especially when I get into the studio. It's only been a few times. Usually it's remote.

Luke the Bear (4:24)

Yeah. Usually it's from either Canada or uk.

Michael Tson (4:27)

So it's probably a lot better remote. It doesn't smell so bad.

Luke the Bear (4:32)

It's hot and steamy here. I know because my glasses are fogging up. So tell us about yourself there, Mike. What do you do?

Michael Tson (4:40)

Well, I am a pastor in Georgetown, Kentucky. I pastor a church called Royal Spring Chapel, and I'm also the chief of Operations here in the US for the Ezra Institute. I serve at the pleasure of the President. And we are. So we're really excited about what's going on in the US for the Ezra Institute. So we've got training programs, we've got new curriculum coming out. So I'm really in charge of working with Joe and making sure that we just execute on our plan to grow out the ministry here in the US.

Luke the Bear (5:12)

And how long have you been in the States now?

Michael Tson (5:14)

Three years. Three years since my legal migration into this great nation.

Luke the Bear (5:21)

And I've heard that legal migration is a royal pain.

Michael Tson (5:24)

It's. It's terrible. I. Especially when you know how much illegal immigration is happening and how confused Americans are about that. It's. Yeah, I think we've spent 33,000 US on lawyers and everything like that just to get in the country and. But we're happy to be here.

Luke the Bear (5:41)

You got a green card?

Michael Tson (5:43)

No, that's. That's like a. That's a golden ticket. That's. That's a soon. That's. That's down there.

Luke the Bear (5:49)

So what are you. What are you functioning off of. Then how does that.

Michael Tson (5:52)

An R1 work visa.

Luke the Bear (5:53)

Okay.

Michael Tson (5:54)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which, which, which has a pathway to a green card. So we're excited about that.

Luke the Bear (5:58)

And then eventually you want to become a citizen so you can buy a suppressor.

Michael Tson (6:01)

Absolutely. Sorry, we can't say that on air. Can we say that on air? I don't know about that, but yes, eventually.

Luke the Bear (6:07)

Yeah, yeah. Are you allowed to have a firearm?

Michael Tson (6:10)

Yes.

Luke the Bear (6:10)

Oh, yeah, we talked about that.

Michael Tson (6:11)

Yeah.

Luke the Bear (6:12)

How does that work?

Michael Tson (6:14)

It's very simple. You go to buy a firearm, and when you fill out your form, it just says you're not a citizen. So you have to fill out a section on, on who you are, and you just tick off that you're going. You have a hunting license.

Luke the Bear (6:29)

Okay.

Michael Tson (6:29)

And if you have a hunting license and you can show a hunting license and you can buy any fire, easy peasy.

Joe (6:33)

Yeah.

Luke the Bear (6:34)

And Kentucky's constitution carry. Yeah, that's why it's easy then.

Michael Tson (6:37)

Yeah.

Luke the Bear (6:38)

Some states you probably would never.

Michael Tson (6:39)

Probably. Yeah, yeah.

Luke the Bear (6:41)

Like California, for example.

Michael Tson (6:42)

And it's a bit of that unknown thing where some Americans know that you can do that. And then other gun stores, you walk in and they look at you and go, we can't do that. You go, wait, just let me show you the form. And then you fill it out for them. They get it.

Luke the Bear (6:53)

Welcome to the U.S. joe just from the UK doesn't.

Joe (6:57)

Joe.

Michael Tson (6:57)

Joe's been waiting 18 months. Well, it's been 18 months for you in the UK for a rifle application. 18 months.

Joe (7:05)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. It's been, it's. It's been a long time. Just processing. I'm in a rural area and I do clay pigeon shooting and be that kind of thing. And there's lots of farms in the area where you can do seasonal shoots with the, with the farmers. But it's been, it's been a long time. And I'm a British citizen.

Luke the Bear (7:25)

Yeah.

Joe (7:25)

And it's been a. Yeah, just, just, just even making a start on that is. I don't even want to go there. It's just so, so frustrating when you, when you come to the US and you can see people's constitutional right to, to defend themselves.

Luke the Bear (7:40)

Yeah.

Joe (7:42)

You know, but I just rely on the firepower of the Holy Spirit usually, but, you know, it's 1776.

Michael Tson (7:49)

That's right.

Luke the Bear (7:52)

What about blades? Speaking of blades, you can go to blades.com, put apology in the coupon code, and get 5% off your order, and they will donate 5% to an abortion. Now, what is it like to get a blade in the uk because that's tricky too, isn't it? Isn't that?

Joe (8:04)

Yeah, there's heavy restrictions on those too. I mean, we do have a very serious problem with knife crime in the, in the uk. I mean that's, that's, that's the myth of, you know, think, oh, well, if you. After World War II, basically, that they started taking our guns away and stripped the population of their firearms. Of course, people figure out other ways if they're going to commit crimes. They just simply figure out other ways to do it. And so we've got, you know, machete wielding people in the streets and all kinds of. There was a terrible stabbing just a couple of days ago on a train going from Doncaster to London and nine people were badly injured too critically. People aren't armed to defend themselves in the uk.

Luke the Bear (8:46)

Yeah, yeah.

Michael Tson (8:47)

It's the same old garbage. Right. The criminals can have the arms, but, but citizens can't. Yeah.

Luke the Bear (8:52)

I'll never forget, I think it was the, it was one of the first times we were in Ireland, we were in the north, so it's UK and on the newspaper, it's like one of the most Irish things I've ever seen. It was like front page in the newspaper. It was that there was a funeral and there was a fight broke out at a funeral and they confiscated. That is very Irish, like 15, like weapons. There was blades, there was hatchets, there was gardening tools, like, and the front page of the paper and it was all the, the weapons that confiscated.

Joe (9:24)

Well, if you go into a gardening store in the uk, I went in recently, a few weeks ago, I was in a, in a gardening store and some of the, like the hose and some of the blades, some of the shears and stuff, you have to be over a certain age. They've got an age restriction on buying them. Like at some point they're going to start banning, you know, bread knives. You know, you can't cut your loaf of bread. I mean, it's the myth that you can, that, that the problem of violence, of lawlessness is the availability of a blade or of, or of a weapon. And of course we know that that's not the issue at all. It's a heart issue. And, and the choice, very often the choice of, you know, of, of terrorists in, in Europe is driving trucks and cars and vehicles into, into crowds of people need a, A gun.

Luke the Bear (10:13)

Yeah.

Joe (10:14)

So. Yeah. But trying to explain this today to people who've been indoctrinated in Europe and in Britain against guns and they view that you know, the Second Amendment as some sort of scary thing they can't comprehend. Even in the Christian community. They don't, they don't get it. They don't recognize right. Why the Second Amendment exists and why it's important.

Michael Tson (10:34)

It's actually that, to that point that Joe was just talking about, it's hard for Americans to understand when people have been indoctrinated for so long, how hard. They just, it, they just. I'll have Canadians come and just visit us and they'll just kind of walk by my gun collection and freak out for a moment because they, and then you try to explain it and they've just been told so long that the problem is you and it's you owning a firearm that could protect you. And they have no concept of the importance of the Second Amendment being the citizens right to. Part of the citizens right to criticize the government.

Luke the Bear (11:13)

Yeah. Yeah. That's crazy. Well, we're here today to talk about Joe's new book, Think Christianly, which we'll get into. Very excited about this. Before we get into that, what, what's it like in the UK right now? Because it's. You're about to become a Muslim country, aren't you?

Joe (11:35)

You're really hitting some top issues here.

Michael Tson (11:38)

Actually, I'm glad you're doing it because the number one question everybody gets is, Joe moved to the uk has he just given up? What's wrong? No, everybody misses him.

Joe (11:49)

Well, we do have a serious problem with Islam in the uk. In fact, we just did a conference in Canada on the weekend. Actually we had our, our Ezra Conference east and we were dealing with Islam and immigration. And actually in the uk, our last Mission of God conference was on Islam because 6.5% of the population of the United Kingdom now are Muslim. And some of the, in some of our cities, it's 30%, 40%, 50% of the, of the population. They're almost becoming sort of ghettoized, totally unintegrated areas. Sharia law courts are, are, are widespread and basically Muslim communities trying to rule themselves in terms of Sharia. And this is with the permission of, of civil authority as well. So we do have a, we do have a significant problem. There is, there is pushback. Finally. There is the, the Reform Party in the UK is way ahead in the polls. If there was a general election next week, they would win by a landslide.

Luke the Bear (13:00)

Good.

Joe (13:02)

And there's a, there's increasing recognition of the threat of Islamic ideology, but it's late in the day and of course there are, there are non Christian Professors, in fact leading professors in London like David Betts for example, who is talking about the notion that unless something is done very, very quickly, we are on an irreversible path to civil conflict. And we are seeing the early, We've been seeing the early signs of that for the past 18, 18 months and continuously more of these illegal migrants arrive on boats on the. Every day, Every day or every week. I think we're over 40,000 completely illegal arrivals, mainly men from Islam, young men from Islamic countries and they've been put up in hotels up and four star hotels up and down the country at the taxpayer's expense and people are absolutely furious.

Luke the Bear (14:00)

Yeah.

Joe (14:00)

So, but we do, we do have a significant difficulty there. There's no. I mean, joking aside, it really is a massive issue that the church has to confront.

Luke the Bear (14:10)

Is it primarily. Is it all over? I mean we'll stick with, with Britain. Is it pretty much all over Britain or is it concentrated in some of the bigger cities?

Joe (14:21)

It's concentrated in specific areas. I mean if you look at for example Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland I think is, is less than 1%.

Luke the Bear (14:27)

Yeah.

Joe (14:28)

Muslim. I think the U.S. is about 1 or 1.5 Muslim. And you've got some areas that you have tiny, you know, 0.5% or less and then you've got specific cities mainly where you've got large concentrations. This, this particular professor who studies the history of war basically talks about the fact that what we're heading towards unless something is done is, is a conflict between city urban centers and rural and semi rural communities. They would be almost divided along those lines. I mean I'm. This is the strange thing for me as Christian apologist, I'm able now to talk about secular professors who, looking at things like war.

Luke the Bear (15:10)

Yeah.

Joe (15:11)

Saying this is what we're facing because it appears that these might. This is the Islamic migrant community on the whole there will be some exceptions, does not want to integrate and they appear to want to fight. And they're getting now elected that we got five Muslim MPs wow. In the house in, in as members of Parliament who were elected purely on Islamic issues like Gaz, like Gaza. So they broke with the sort of two or three party idea. They, they didn't run with their traditional political home home which would be the Labor Party, the Socialist Party that the Muslims have always been attached to the Socialist Party in Britain and they've started to run as independents on purely Islamic issues and are getting elected on that basis. That shows you that we're reaching that sort of. We're approaching that critical mass.

Luke the Bear (16:02)

Yeah.

Joe (16:03)

When you get towards 7% and then what happens between 7%, 10% or 10% and 15%? Islam tends to become more belligerent as it gains greater hold in, In. In the culture. And that's where we're in the sort of danger zone right now.

Luke the Bear (16:17)

Do you fear that they are bringing in weapons, firearms?

Joe (16:25)

I have no doubt that that's going on. Mosques are used very often as caches, as storage centers for weapons seen within the last 18 months, when there were. There was unrest over a knife attack by a, By a Muslim.

Luke the Bear (16:42)

Okay.

Joe (16:43)

A young Muslim immigrant on a. Girls dance, little girls at their ballet class. Dance class. And there was a, A frenzied knife attack on these children. And the, the government was initially trying to cover it up and cover up the identity of the, of the perpetrator. Yeah. It was found out and then there were, There was unrest and there were, There was protests outside migrant hotels and stuff, and there was some violence. And interestingly, the, The. At which point some of these Muslim communities came out of their mosques with machetes and all kinds of weapons.

Luke the Bear (17:27)

Yeah.

Joe (17:28)

And the, the dangerous thing is the fact that the police themselves, knowing this and confronting some of these crowds, just said, look, if you take your weapons back to your mosque and put them, leave them there, we won't, we won't pursue any charges against you. Right. So instead of dealing with the issue. So, yes, they are, and I've no doubt that, that firearms are involved in. They have to remember that the mosque, in the Islamic worldview, in Islam, there is only two houses. There's the House of Islam, where Islam is dominant, and there's the House of War. And the mosque is a symbol of the presence of the House of Islam in a context where they're minority. It's a house of war. That's the nature of the mosque. It's symbolic of that. That's why they prefer to take over churches and turn churches into mosques, because it's a symbol, a sign of their conquest of Christianity. So, yeah, the weapons are an issue. And tragically, just to finish that comment, those, the, the people that were the, the government, the state really clamped down on were the concerned indigenous Brits, and they were sending them to jail for tweets during that period. If they were seen to have been passing something on on social media that was considered hateful. They sent a. One woman, a married lady with it with a, With a, With a child who'd actually served in her career, migrants who, who said something unguarded on social Media about, you know, saying, you know, you know, burn the, the hotels down for all I care. The people were so angry. Right. She went to jail. She was sent to jail.

Luke the Bear (19:08)

Unreal.

Joe (19:08)

So, you know, this is the problem that the state recognizes. It's sitting on a powder keg.

Luke the Bear (19:14)

Yeah. Oh yeah.

Joe (19:14)

But it's not prepared at this point to actually side with Britain's.

Luke the Bear (19:19)

Yeah. Ellen, this is why it's good to have firearms. You're about to find out who's your Prime Minister right now.

Joe (19:29)

Two tier Kia Keir Starmer.

Luke the Bear (19:32)

Yeah, no, that's right. We were talking about that lesson.

Joe (19:34)

Yeah, he's a socialist.

Luke the Bear (19:35)

Yeah, that's right.

Joe (19:36)

Okay. And yeah, I mean he's seen as somewhat Blairite, that is, you know, soft, soft socialism, sort of seen as a centrist socialist. But he's being now increasingly controlled by the, by the hard left of his, of his party, I have to say. I mean the man's a national embarrassment. He's weak. The economy is tanking. Law and order is in a state of crisis. He won't grasp the nettle on any of the issues. He can't get control of our borders. And we're about to have a budget in November which will ratchet up taxes yet again on ordinary hardworking middle class people who are already footing the whole bill. So it's, it's, it's coming down basically. I mean it's, it's a, it's a state of crisis. And this is one of the reasons for the stratospheric rise of the, the Reform Party in the uk the two party system, that quiet tranquil conservative labor two party system is done, it's finished, it's over.

Luke the Bear (20:39)

Interesting. How's old King Charles doing when he's.

Joe (20:43)

Not saving the planet with, for climate, from climate change? Well, he's, you know, I think two ways of looking at it. He's. For many people he's not as bad as he, as they thought he was going to be.

Luke the Bear (20:56)

Yeah, I've said that.

Joe (20:57)

Yeah. And he, there did seem to be a bit of, around the time of the death of his mother that did seem to be a moment there where he was taking the faith a good deal more seriously. And I think the weight of the coronations and so forth really did hit him and the legacy of his, of his mother. And for the most part, I mean he just hosted Trump of course for, for a, almost an unprecedented second state visit for, for, for a US President. And it's actually really good. It was a Trump, Trump made a great speech during that occasion. And so he's, it's, it's, it's a mixed picture unfortunately. He does, he, he is, because of the nature of the British Constitution, he's not allowed to openly engage in bipartisan politics.

Luke the Bear (21:46)

Yeah.

Joe (21:47)

But of course by leaning into all the climate change stuff. Yeah, he shows his left leaning, left leaning colors.

Luke the Bear (21:55)

Well, I appreciate all the stuff you, you did on the Queen. I actually was in Belfast when she died, which was kind of cool to experience. I had my middle child with me and it was kind of cool just to see all that. Grabbed a bunch of newspapers and stuff. But anyways, I appreciated all the stuff you did on the Queen. That was super encouraging, helpful.

Joe (22:15)

It felt like a tipping point, a turning point really when she, when she passed. And I remember watching the incredible. I mean probably in the last few years, in the last three years, the two, the two moments in which the Gospel was preached to, to more people over the airwaves, you know, digitally than any other time in history would have been the Queen Elizabeth II's funeral, which she wrote, she designed and it was very, very Christ, it was an amazing funeral. And then of course Charlie Cook's funeral. Those would have been the two sort of public airwaves, mass media exposure of people to, to, to the gospel. So. But it did feel for me as a Brit, like, like a turning point when she died. The end of an era, the end of the, the passing of in a sense the old world, she to that world of sanity, of Christianity, of Christendom.

Luke the Bear (23:11)

Yeah.

Joe (23:12)

And it is going to be a long journey back. Luke. I think.

Luke the Bear (23:15)

Did you watch the Crown?

Joe (23:17)

Yes. Excellent.

Luke the Bear (23:19)

Did you like it?

Joe (23:19)

For the most part, yeah.

Luke the Bear (23:21)

I mean I know there was some stuff that was.

Joe (23:22)

Yeah, they take liberties with thing and obviously they don't know what private conversations went on, but for the most part, yeah, upon key, key moments. And it was, it was an enjoyable series.

Luke the Bear (23:34)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We watch it as a family. All my kids, well, not my son, but my daughters loved it.

Joe (23:39)

Yeah.

Luke the Bear (23:40)

You're still here. I know. We're gonna go to a break. You're gonna hear from our sponsors at Ion Layer and we come back. I'll make sure Michael gets some time to talk.

Michael Tson (23:51)

That's great.

Luke the Bear (23:52)

See you in a minute.

Joe (23:53)

So not too much time.

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Luke the Bear (25:27)

Welcome back everybody. So we're gonna get into Joe's book here. Michael, tell us about Joe's book. Why is it so great?

Michael Tson (25:36)

The COVID is white. It's got the words think Christianly on it. Actually, it's interesting. Joe and I were talking on the way over about the book. Joe's other major work, Mission of God, which we've got the 10th anniversary edition out, really was helpful for me as a thinker and a pastor about not truncating the gospel, not limiting the vision of God's mission to the church within the walls. But on our way over, Joe and I were talking about this. This particular book is the Christian philosophical underpinnings that would even lead to the mission of God's application for the church. And so I think even that conversation that you guys were just having about the uk, the reality of it is, is I that's the way I feel about every Western nation now. We left Canada because it feels like Canada is either going to slide into Chinese totalitarianism or into a civil war between Chinese totalitarianism and in Islam and the traditional Christian Canadians. And then here in the US everything that Joe was describing, the immigration Problem was to a greater degree. So you talked about 40,000. It's like 11. 11 to 21 million are the estimates here in the U.S. well, this.

Joe (27:11)

I was just mentioning the illegal boat crossings so far this year. Right?

Michael Tson (27:14)

This year.

Joe (27:15)

But there's other illegal migration, and of course, then there's legal mass migration. Right. Which is a challenge, too.

Michael Tson (27:20)

So the, the, the whole leftist approach to religion is we don't really care where everybody comes from and their worldviews, because we will. And we just talked about this on our podcast because we all just rule them with an iron fist of secularism and scientism. So virtually, in every space that we go to here in the US you walk around, you've got Tucker Carlson just talking about this two or three weeks ago, where he says, if nothing happens, we are going towards a civil war. So everybody is understanding the disunity of the culture, the disunity of political thought, the disunity of a vision for their nation. And in short, when that is what the Ezra Institute provides, a reformational framework, how to think Christianly about all of these things. And so, you know, I, I've dug into the book a little bit. Specifically, I was digging into the chapter on apologetics, because I was lecturing on that recently. And this is just a lot of great work with that. If you listen to the podcast, you're going to hear a bunch of this come out in the podcast. If you've read Joe's previous works, if you've heard lectures, this is a great work that is, again, promoting that reformational vision for the nation. So, you know, crisis conservatism is over. Removing Christianity from a national vision must be done. We need to have a Christian mind towards all of these issues. So it's interesting you guys were talking about guns at the beginning. It's like I was just looking in the book. I don't think there's a Think Christianly about.

Joe (29:10)

That's volume two. Think more Christianly.

Michael Tson (29:13)

Think more Christianly about ammunition and think more Christianly about property rights. And think more.

Joe (29:20)

Like, I do deal with property rights in the chapter on Marxism in there, but.

Michael Tson (29:24)

Exactly. So this is the type of thing where we got sold a bill of goods, our generation, from our parents. Our parents were duped into all of the multiculturalism, all of the secularism. They became functioning secularists where the church was a good thing for me to be saved. But if you ask them, okay, what does the Bible say about this? And Joe is helping people regain that. And I'm excited to be. That's why I'm. That's why I'm excited to be a part of the Ezra Institute, and that's why we're excited about the book coming out.

Luke the Bear (29:59)

So was it, was it you guys? I've listened to a bunch of podcasts since Charlie Kirk's assassination. Was it you guys that was talking about the difference between revival and reformation, or was that Doug? It must have been Doug because you're looking at me like literally in my.

Michael Tson (30:15)

Mind it was like, we've talked about it. But do I want to take credit for something that Doug did too? You know, he may have. We did a podcast specifically about owning Charlie Kirk as a martyr.

Luke the Bear (30:24)

Yeah. And it was you guys.

Michael Tson (30:28)

Revival leads to reformation.

Joe (30:29)

Yeah.

Michael Tson (30:30)

But that's been our problem. The churches here in Kentucky, people will literally say to me, there was a kid who visited our church. I said, where were you last week? He was like, I was at a revival meeting. We need a vision to move from spiritual awakening to an undivided mind. That scripture that you read. So go ahead, Joe, it's your book.

Joe (30:49)

Revival presupposes reformation in, in my view. So the only way you could have the evangelical awakening in the 18th century in Britain and, and in the 18th and then the 19th century, the Second Great Awakening, as it were in America, is because there was something to revive. Right, right. And the difficulty now.

Luke the Bear (31:11)

Right.

Joe (31:12)

So it, take, take the UK for example, for a. The, the Z generation, the Bible study, just. The Bible Society just did a major study, six year study looking at 18 to 24 year olds and found that there had been a. About a 16 or 17% increase in the Z generation in Britain going to church and reading the Bible in the last few years because of all the chaos and the confusion and the, the sense of hopelessness and meaninglessness, they're casting about for meaning. But then what strikes you as a believer is, yeah, but look at the state of the church in Britain. So what kind of a church do they pitch up in? And so many of them are don't think Christianly. They don't have a biblical world and life view. They don't. And so the, what kind of a Christianity are they encountering? And one of the things I'm hearing anecdotally from pastors and leaders is a lot of young men are showing up at these churches out of nowhere, but they're struggling to retain them. And one of the reasons for that is unless you have a kingdom vision, unless you have an undivided mind, unless you have a mission to give them in this Unless you're saying to them, this is what it means to think Christianly about everything. That's chapter one of the book, by the way. In a sense, what Michael was driving at, Luke, was that is that think Christianly functions almost as a sort of worldview, philosophical prolegometer, that which goes before the mission of God.

Michael Tson (32:37)

I wanted to let Joe say the word prolegoma.

Luke the Bear (32:40)

You can't even say it.

Joe (32:40)

I had to tell him what it meant on the way here.

Luke the Bear (32:42)

But I know because I read Bhavik.

Joe (32:46)

That's right. Oh, there you go.

Luke the Bear (32:48)

But I didn't get very far. I tried reading, I should say. I think I read the first volume and I couldn't keep up after that, anyways.

Joe (32:54)

Well, we forget that when we talk about. When we talk about doing theology. And we've got a lot of theologians out there and a lot of theological discourse, doctrine, dogma. There is the prolegometer to theology, though, which is, what are the philosophical assumptions that I'm bringing to the theological task? What are the philosophical assumptions that I'm actually bringing to Scripture? Are they actually informed by and grounded and rooted in the word of God? And I think, because they haven't been. This is why we've had this dualistic, let's call it schizophrenic church that has been part Christian, part humanist, part secular right, part Christian. The church is for Jesus. The. The Bible is for the church institute, but it's not really for every other area of life. And so chapter one, I kind of open up the stall, think Christianly about everything, and then actually talk about how do we think Christianly about Christ? You know, that's almost sounds like a weird chapter type.

Luke the Bear (33:55)

No, I love that chapter. Yeah, it was great because it was just the historic. You laid it out historically, like.

Joe (34:00)

Yeah, about the Council of Nicaea and all of that and how we. How we are to understand the person of Christ and the implications of the formulation in the end of Nicaea and recognizing the apostolic teaching, what that meant for culture. So it's kind of the building blocks of the development of the Christian mind, which is why, you know, I took that verse from Psalm 86, give me an undivided mind to fear your names. Because we desperately need a new generation of believers who do not. A divided mind.

Luke the Bear (34:31)

Yeah.

Joe (34:32)

Who, you know, they're not. They're not separated into two kingdoms. Right.

Luke the Bear (34:37)

Which you address.

Joe (34:38)

Which I. Which I address extensively in the book. That era and how it's led us to this point where we're sat on a podcast in America in Phoenix talking about the fact that commentators in the west are talking about civil war, civil conflict, and because the demi, the divided.

Michael Tson (34:58)

Mind of Americans is leading to divide like this is. This is literally the expression of all of the confusion now coming back. And we're going to see it in that generation. I have, I have two boys, 21 and 19, and I've said in the number in the last few months, they could see active conflict in their lifetime because of. Or a great change, a great turn back to Christ and the proclamation of the gospel for people to repent. But. But we need to be able to do that in a way that leads them back to Scripture. Going to your point, Joe, about people showing up to churches and not retaining young men, it's because they're seeing the gimmick. They're seeing the gimmick effeminate church and.

Luke the Bear (35:45)

They'Re looking for something masculine.

Michael Tson (35:48)

Yeah. Or they're going to an authoritarian church that's trying to pretend to be biblically masculine. It's gimmick either way. And it's exhausting when you're just elevating the human little bait and switch stuff. I think the next generation is tired of that. They're seeing it everywhere.

Joe (36:08)

Well, I think the temptation that's facing Christians and the younger generation especially is, is there a shortcut? Is there a quick fix to the cultural crisis we're in? You know, is there a political quick fix to the situation app for that? Yeah. Is there an app for it? Yes. Can we download something that will fix this problem? And because we didn't get here overnight, we're not going to get out of this overnight.

Michael Tson (36:35)

Right.

Joe (36:36)

And, and patience is, you know, God taught Abraham patience. It said, the scripture says that God searched out Abraham. He searched him by. Because he'd given him a promise, and yet he didn't have a son. And he was an old man. Moses, in the same way, he's out there in the wilderness for a long time, many, many, many, many years, looking after sheep, having been a prince of Egypt because God was needing to teach and prepare Moses. And I think that that test, one of the tests we're in right now is patient. Patient endurance is one of the key messages of scripture. And we have to engage at every level, the political, social culture, you know, the every aspect of culture. That's what I think Christianity is really about. It's how do we engage the academy with the sciences, history, sexuality, the life issue. You guys constantly addressing this critical issue in our culture, bringing bills in, the Louisiana bill that you guys are dealing with even at the moment. We have to battle on all of those fronts.

Luke the Bear (37:42)

Yeah.

Joe (37:42)

And we need faithfulness on all of those fronts, and there isn't a quick, easy fix. Here's the downloadable, you know, solution. And, you know, the. The liberals have tried to drape the rainbow flag over the pulpit. Others are trying to, you know, elevate Andrew. Andrew Tate to an, you know, an apostle in the church. And, and neither is. Is scriptural, Neither is biblical, or Nick Fuentes or Fuentes or. Or drape, you know, the swastika over the. Over the Lord's table. Both are ideological sin and error. And there isn't a quick fix to this problem. You know, I was once accused when I, When I was talking about the.

Luke the Bear (38:25)

The.

Joe (38:25)

The central reason why we're in. We've talked about the crisis of the west, of why we're in the grip of it right now, is that Scripture is absolutely plain. For example, let's take the lgbtq, the Alphabet soup for a minute, the queering of culture. Paul says very explicitly in Romans 1 that that is the mark of God's judgment. It's not a harbinger of judgment. It is the judgment. We are in the grip of the judgment. And I talked about the. You look no further than our murder of babies, of our. Of our abandonment of the living God, of our destruction of the family, of all these things that we have been going on with as a Western society now for, you know, basically since the. The 20th. The 20th century, but got onto steroids in the 1960s. And we're in the grip of. We're in the grip of God's. God's judgments. And I was accused of theologizing. I remember one individual accusing me of theologizing history. And this was just basically political problems, as though God's active judgment and justice in history, which the Bible teaches everywhere, is theologizing history. No. Well, God is involved. And the good news is that when God is judging something and he's bringing his judgment to bear, he's salvation is also in his arm, and he's sweeping something aside to replace it with something else. And interestingly, God has used Islam before to judge apostate and faithless nations. And, you know, that. That does scare me a little. You know, that has been one of God's tools in the past. But. But all in all, we need to wake up, and we. If we don't think, start thinking Christianly, it's all over for goodness knows how long.

Luke the Bear (40:21)

Right.

Joe (40:22)

I mean, we're. We believe we have an Eschatological hope that. That knows that Christ triumphs in history. But we've got a responsibility to our generation.

Luke the Bear (40:30)

Some of us more hopeful than others.

Joe (40:32)

Yes.

Michael Tson (40:33)

Some of us more willing to acknowledge the tension.

Joe (40:37)

He lives in the tension.

Michael Tson (40:38)

That's right.

Joe (40:39)

He lives in that space.

Luke the Bear (40:40)

Yeah.

Joe (40:40)

No, he's. He's fully converted.

Michael Tson (40:42)

That's literally going to be my tombstone.

Joe (40:44)

He lived with the tension.

Michael Tson (40:46)

He's a friend of Joe and he lived with the tension.

Joe (40:50)

But I, I think sinners, because Christian action presupposes Christian thinking. If we don't think Christianly, we can't have Christian action. And, and again, that's not something that we can bypass.

Luke the Bear (41:04)

No.

Joe (41:04)

We can't short circuit the route.

Luke the Bear (41:07)

I know you've been patiently waiting.

Joe (41:08)

No, no, no.

Michael Tson (41:09)

You should. Like, we podcast together all the time, so we throw back and forth.

Luke the Bear (41:14)

You're my guest, so go for it. I know you're waiting and I have stuff to say.

Michael Tson (41:17)

Well, I just, I just think, you know, number one, when Joe was bringing up Romans, chapter one, there Paul gets to the list and he has to say, they invent ways of doing evil. Like, he can't. I've given you a list. And then I've just got to say, they invent other ways. And that is exactly what our culture is facing right now. Just people inventing, you know, children not obeying their parents. We're seeing this to the degree of children declaring the differences of their sexes and threatening parents with, you know, I won't even acknowledge you as my parent if you don't acknowledge me as this type of bipod or, or whatever. They want to be furry. And then the other thing, I was thinking about this, and this is why I think Christianity is so important in also in Romans, when we're told to have the trans. The transformation of our minds, the renewing of our minds. When Christ quotes Deuteronomy as, you know, what is the greatest command? Love the Lord your God with all of your heart, mind, soul and strength. He includes the mind. This is an area I just think is unexplored very often because we've left the mind to the academics. We've left the mind to. To the secular space. Even I can think back to my Bible college days. I don't think I was introduced to actually any Christian philosophers in my Introduction to Philosophy class. Like Immanuel Kant, Freud, all of those guys, there might have been a history of philosophical thought, but guys like Van Til, even interacting with the way that Rushduni talks about presuppositionalism. Presuppositionalism wasn't even a thing at a Bible college level, then master's level degree for me. I stumbled on to Greg Bonson because of his great love of the law of God. So reading Five Views of the Law and Bahnsen was the reformed theonomic view. Then started reading him, then heard Joe lecture and said, oh, this is a guy that is. Is aligning with some of the ways. I'm thinking about the covenantalism and then really exploring this beside Joe as he's been writing about it. And so, so I think the focus is we'll lose young people all the time when we don't give them the actual biblical answers to address their minds. And I think of Spurgeon. One of the reasons why Spurgeon was such a great preacher was because his imagination and his acknowledgement of what people actually lived their. How they lived their lives and what they would go through, He.

Ad Sponsor (44:28)

He.

Michael Tson (44:29)

He preached to renew their minds. So that means very. Being very applicational. That means dealing with humans as they are. Like, Joe and I, on the way over, we were just talking about, very sincerely, about, you know, some LGBT issues. And the question was like, how can people get there? Because they're totally depraved. You're starting with a totally depraved mind. So having a proper theological framework for, for how the unbeliever thinks and where we then. And how we need to think according to Scripture. It's a good focus, and it's not academic, and when I say it's not academic. Joe's done an incredible amount of work. He always does in his writing with. It's well researched, it's interacting with Christian thinkers, but it's drawing people back to glorifying the Lord in faith, accepting Scripture for these very practical areas of life. It's a very practical theology. I don't know if you like the framing of practical theology or pastoral theology, but I find it's very applicational when Joe interacts with these topics.

Luke the Bear (45:42)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, that's a great place to start, but we'll go to actually play an ad for you guys right now, and then we come back, we get one more segment, and we'll get a little bit into the book. So I'll see you in a minute.

Joe (45:55)

Scripture claims that Christ is the living word of truth. All things were made through him. Without him, nothing was made that has been made. Instead of God's people challenging and transforming the culture, the culture is challenging, changing, and transforming the church. The fullness of the Gospel concerns The all things that Paul addresses. What is the relationship of God's word revelation centered in Christ to our real everyday life in the world? The way we answer that question will actually determine the course of the future of society.

Luke the Bear (46:47)

All right, welcome back guys. Michael's actually going to tell us real quickly about that commercial and then we'll get into the book here.

Michael Tson (46:54)

Yeah, we're really excited. We've actually got of course the release of Think Christianly. And at the same time though, for the first time we are releasing a small group curriculum or a Sunday school curriculum called A Biblical View for All of Life. And what we've done is we've taken what I would say one of Joe's most foundational lectures on gospel and culture and we've turned that into a three week video series. And actually it's so dense and we can use that in either way we want to use that. It's so thick that I'd actually recommend people do it in six weeks. Listen to the video, it's a half hour video and get through half of the small group questions and then listen to the video again, like some for a refresher and go through the next half. We've test piloted this with about six groups and we'll find that they never get through all of the questions. So it can be a six week curriculum, it can be a weekender, it can be a three week if you're high intensity, if you're really intense about it, or it can be a six week curriculum. And so that's going to be available on our website. You can go and pre sign up for the list. It's going to be available in three or four weeks. So we're very excited about the foundation's curriculum, A Biblical View for All of Life. And it just so happens that we've released a whole brand new Ezra Media website which people can subscribe for, which.

Luke the Bear (48:27)

Has a great picture of Joe on the front.

Michael Tson (48:30)

Well, that's debatable. Hey everybody, if you are an apology listener, can we do a poll? Let's just do a poll. Sue, poll right now. Go into the comment section if you like the picture of Joe in the salmon jacket, just give it a thumbs up if you think we need something more appropriate to the American contest.

Luke the Bear (48:48)

Picture of Joe though. It's just the jacket.

Michael Tson (48:50)

It is, he's looking, he's, he's thinking, he's, he's really very sincere there. But all that to say Ezra Media came out like two weeks ago. We're looking for subscribers there and it's going to be. It's a great platform with a lot of lectures, previous conferences, all of those types of things. The foundation's curriculum, where again, we want churches to. If they've never introduced people to Reformation.

Joe (49:15)

School, study groups, school, high school groups, university groups, families. Want to go to school.

Michael Tson (49:20)

Absolutely. And then at the same time, think Christianly. So we've had three big releases in this one month. So thanks so much for having us to be able to share with everybody about that. We appreciate you guys so much.

Luke the Bear (49:32)

We appreciate you guys. So I was gonna, I told you I was gonna ask him why he decided to write this book. I just was gonna say, if you guys are watching, you haven't read Mission of God, please go get that. I. I legitimately tell people this is my favorite book on theology, and it's just so encompassing and thorough and, and you know, it. It's literally the only theology book I have that there's. I didn't find anything. I just, you know, we all have those. We're like, oh, I love this book. But there's always something. You're like, I don't know if I, if I buy that. You know, like, this is it. Like, that's the one.

Joe (50:08)

And so I always knew you were spirit filled.

Luke the Bear (50:10)

Yeah, I know. It's just. And you know what? Honestly has been proud. I love four missions. I don't know if I've told you that. Four mission. That one rocked me in a good way. I use that a lot with stuff, but yeah, it's just like a, it's basically a part of Mission of God.

Joe (50:26)

Right?

Luke the Bear (50:26)

You just kind of put into a smaller book pretty much.

Joe (50:29)

Actually, it's, it's full mission is, is part of.

Luke the Bear (50:32)

Oh, it's part of this.

Joe (50:33)

Yeah. Think Christianly. Yeah, it was a little, it was a little private. Yeah.

Luke the Bear (50:36)

Oh, it's for this. Okay, gotcha. So why, why, why did you want to write this book?

Michael Tson (50:40)

Prolomina.

Luke the Bear (50:42)

You did it this time. It was a pro.

Joe (50:43)

Pro.

Luke the Bear (50:47)

So what was the inspiration? I know. I mean, I'm halfway through it, and you've pretty much hit on all the things we've been dealing with the last two years. You know, we mentioned two kingdom, Aristotle, natural law, like all the things we've been dealing with. But, like, you took two years, you said to write this, so, like, what, what made you want to write it?

Joe (51:09)

Well, I think the, without harping on about the whole prolegometer thing, the, the, in a sense, Mission of God was dealing with a, with foundational biblical worldview issues and Then theological, specifically theological applications. And in some respects we. I did cover obviously a lot of territory in, In Mission of God. It does cover a lot of bases because it's trying to map out that. That theological worldview. But some of the work I don't get done in Mission of God is that philosophical prolegometer. Why, why is it that, that I would arrive at. At the, the conclusions that I do in. In Mission of God, other people arrive at these radically different conclusions. And actually the answer lies in the what. In what goes before. And so what I wanted to do was really deal with that, that philosophical prolegometer. And I don't want to put people off because it's not a. It's not like, as Michael said, an academic philosophical text. But you also know that it is, it's dealing at the conceptual level with why people will end up where they are. And I felt that that work hadn't been. It wasn't the intention of the Mission of God to deal with all of that. The Mission of God is a manifesto of hope for society. It's like what is the, the, the. The distinctly Christian theological perspective on a multiplicity of issues. In some respects in, in Think Christianly, I'm tackling, I'm anticipating and tackling the objections to what would happen to the objections you might get to Mission of God before they come up. So why do you need to think Christianly about everything? What's at the root of that idea? What about the person of Christ? Right. Himself. When we think about church and kingdom.

Luke the Bear (53:09)

Yeah.

Joe (53:10)

Now I tease out the details in Mission of God, but the sort of philosophical groundwork. So, and then I'm dealing, of course in this with some of the areas that could have been treated at length in Mission of God but weren't, like history, Marxism that. Or cultural Marxism, critical theory that we're dealing with today. Sexuality and an identity, the life issue. So abortion and euthanasia, transhumanism, some of these issues that we need to. We urgently need to think in distinctly Christian ways about. And when I do tackle the issue of law, which of course I address biblical. The biblical law issue from a very robustly scriptural theological standpoint in Mission of God, in this, I'm coming at the. I deal with the question of, oh, yeah, but what about natural law?

Luke the Bear (54:06)

Yeah.

Joe (54:06)

Arguments. What about why is it that we should end up in it with the Messiah king and a theonomic vision of reality? And what are the philosophical underpinnings of both of those positions? So in part, it's prolegometer it's what. It's what goes before. And maybe the first half of the book you could say is that. And then the second half is actually dealing with further applications.

Luke the Bear (54:35)

Some of the.

Joe (54:36)

Some of the cultural issues that I didn't. I wasn't able to devote to time to in. In Mission of God, in part because the book was already.

Luke the Bear (54:43)

Yeah.

Joe (54:44)

Pretty long. And you can't say everything in. In one book. And of course, between these two, I wrote Ruler of Kings, which was dealing with sphere sovereignty and a biblical view of government. So also, I'll lay my cards on the table with it. I'm taking basically a reformational philosophical standpoint, which would be in contradistinction to the Aristotelian Thomistic tradition. And I am thinking about the. And dealing with the thought world of Herman Doyvard, Cornelius Van Till Bavink, this tradition that brings us to a distinctly Christian view of everything, which is where you don't get to. With the scholastic, Thomistic.

Luke the Bear (55:31)

Yeah.

Joe (55:31)

Aristotelian tradition.

Luke the Bear (55:33)

What year did you write the first version of Mission of God?

Joe (55:36)

That was first published in 2014.

Luke the Bear (55:39)

Yeah, I mean, so that was way before intersectionality and wokeness and.

Joe (55:44)

Totally.

Luke the Bear (55:44)

Yeah.

Joe (55:45)

And most. And of course, I was writing that for four years, so I said that project was started in 2010. Wow.

Luke the Bear (55:51)

Okay.

Joe (55:51)

Well, so obviously in this I'm able to get to some of the. Especially as I deal with sexuality and identity and then as I deal with critical theory, those are some of the topics that just weren't really. I mean, I deal extensively in Mission of God with the social justice movement, which was a. Which was cultural Marxist movement, but the critical theory stuff was only just starting to appear in the public consciousness at that time.

Luke the Bear (56:16)

Yeah, excellent. Okay, so here, here's. We got. We got 10 minutes left here. So I told you I was gonna. A question I want to ask him, so forgive me, because I was listening to it this morning. I don't remember which chapter it was in, but you were talking about the. The difference between.

Michael Tson (56:32)

The.

Luke the Bear (56:33)

The aroma and. And incense. You remember what I'm talking. Where, where. What you said?

Joe (56:42)

Give me some more.

Luke the Bear (56:43)

I was talking about. Here I have it. I pulled up, I had. I took a screenshot. I love this. I love this conversation. And I was like, oh, I never thought about this. And it's going to go back to formation because it's going to see. So what's on page two? 217. So I give. I give thanks to God that This is from Second Corinthians 2, 14, 17. Oh, yeah, he is always, and this is from the Knox Bible, so he's always exhibiting us as the captives, excuse me, in the triumph of Christ Jesus and, and through us, spreading abroad everywhere like a perfume, the knowledge of himself. We are Christ's incense offered to God, making manifest both those who are achieving salvation and those who are on the road to ruin as a, as a deadly fume where it finds death, a life giving perfume where it finds life. And so, yeah, so you were saying this is a remarkable imagery. St. Paul likens God's servants to exhibits of the victory of Jesus Christ. Just as Roman conquerors displayed their captives and spoil to the public and triumphal procession to the city. Through us as believers, the living God spread everywhere like a perfume, the knowledge himself. Unlike incense offered to the genius of, he said, spiritual power behind the emperor, we are Christ's incense offer to God, which literally smokes out those on the path to life and those on the road to ruin. And I heard that and I stopped and I was like, that was incredible. So I went back and took a screenshot and I love this idea. I just, and again, going back to the four Mission, because immediately I thought of, you know, the Christians are very good about, you know, having an aroma of Christ in our houses or in the four walls of our church. You know, if we're feeling brave, we might open up the doors and the windows and let some of that aroma out. Right, but, but you're saying like, no, no, we need to fill the air with incense, with the smoke of incense so that you can't escape. Yeah, you can't escape Christ. And in reality, what we've done is by keeping that aroma in our, in our four walls. We're afraid to open the door because we're afraid that the, the smoke and the incense of the world is going to get into our houses. And anyways, I, I, I'm gonna steal this, by the way. So I was thinking about this one on the way here anyway, so I wanted you to talk about that because I had never even caught that before in that passage until I heard you say that, so. Well, take it away.

Joe (59:10)

I think that's from the, that the chapter actually dealing with the apologetics.

Luke the Bear (59:14)

Yes, yes, yes.

Joe (59:16)

And the nature of authority. And one of the things I do towards the end of the chapter, there is talk about the nature of the Christian's authority and how it is completely different to the authority and inverted commas of the world. And I discussed the difference from a Christian standpoint between the genius and the evangelist, the or The Christian who's witnessing to the, to, to the truth of, of the gospel.

Luke the Bear (59:47)

Yeah.

Joe (59:49)

There's been a lot of geniuses in, in, in history. Take a, a Shakespeare or an Aristotle. And their, their work in a sense is, is taken up in, in the, in, in the story of history. And it's transcended. It's. We, we move, we move beyond it. We, we can learn from it. But it's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a part of the historical process. It emerges in history. And so I'm contrasting the idea that the gospel is not a philosophical idea. That was a stroke of genius that somebody had. Right. That, that, that they're, you know, they get in the bath. Eureka. And suddenly, you know, there's a new mathematical equation understood. And, and, and suddenly there's this new message. No, all of those things are always taken up in history and, and we move beyond them. But the authority that Paul had or Peter had was an authority that, and that we have and that we share in Christ is from beyond history.

Luke the Bear (60:50)

Yeah.

Joe (60:51)

And so the, that g. The word genius. And this goes back to now, specifically what you were talking about. Literally the, the. In the early church, Christians were confronting the worship of the state in the worship of the emperor. And there was a requirement that they offer incense, you know, that fragrant incense to the spirit, the genius of the emperor, which was the idea of a spirit that blessed, informed, protected the emperor and was, was and led Rome to glory. And so you had to a demon basically.

Luke the Bear (61:28)

Yeah.

Joe (61:29)

And, and that, that was the, the genie, the genius. You offered it to the, to the spirit behind Rome. And, and this word got taken up and we now talk about geniuses and you know, the whole, think about the whole Covid era where we were supposed to follow the science, where we've got this elite, where we have the, we should be following the, the genius of the age right there. What is the. Who's leading us into a new future? Who are the elites who offer protection to the modern state. That's where we need to offer our incense. But here Paul says no, we are Christ's incense. We're not offering incense to the false gods of the emperor and of the state. We're Christ's incense. And that makes manifest both those who are achieving salvation, those on the road to ruin. It's a deadly fume where it finds death. Death. It's a life giving perfume where it finds life. So we offer ourselves. We are the incense of God to the world. We've been offered to Christ. And it's the Holy Spirit who is actually leading and governing in his providence, history. And we're the fragrance that is to bring life to the totality of the world around us. That fragrant offering that we are and who can prove themselves worthy. And actually the end of that verse which you didn't read, Luke, which is I think, critically important, it's a, it's a calling. So the genius is born, but the, the, the evangelist, the Christian witness is called. I, I can't alter who I am.

Luke the Bear (63:12)

Right.

Joe (63:12)

I can't. I am what I am. I've been as a creature. I'm not Shakespeare. Michael is what he is. He's definitely not Shakespeare or Aristotle.

Michael Tson (63:23)

He's way better looking.

Joe (63:25)

But in that sense we were born, you know, and we're born as, as who we are, but we are also called. And that, that calling transcends the genius of the age. Paul isn't listened to. His authority doesn't come from the fact that he was a genius or Peter's authority is not even Jesus. We don't listen to Christ because in human estimation he was a genius. And that, we look at Christ and we reduce him to that. Oh well, there was Shakespeare, there was Aristotle, there was Cicero, there was Jesus, there was Gandhi. Right. No, his authority is from beyond history. And so Paul says we do not, like so many others, adulterate the word of God. We preach it in all its purity as God gave it to us, standing before God's presence in Christ. So there we are standing before, before God's presence, offering incense. We, we in that sense are, we are Christ's incense offered to God. Christ takes hold of us as his people and he says they are the incense for the, of the world. They are the, they are the fragrant Christ. We are Christ's fragrant offering that manifests the direction, the, the, the, the, the, the reality of what the Holy Spirit is doing in history. And it's, and when we don't adulterate God's word, it's totally transformative.

Luke the Bear (64:44)

Yes.

Joe (64:45)

And that's what I'm sort of driving at this, this distinction between calling and, and, and being born. There's the, the genius is born, but the Christian, whoever they are, is called and has an authority not of the genius of the expert, but as an authority that comes from Christ himself. And Christ offers us to God as his incense to the world, spreading his, that aroma everywhere to, to jump in on that.

Michael Tson (65:14)

Yeah, that verse 17, unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. It follows this question, and who is equal to such a task? And he goes, unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, like men sent from God. Which is Joe, which is what Joe's trying to explaining there. Who is equal to the task of apologetics? Not the rationalist intellectual. It is the person depending on the word of God. I hate to quote Joe, especially when he just insulted me and said I wasn't like Shakespeare, which when I write my wife poetry, she says I am exactly like sweet you. It is smoking hot. I could. I could read some stuff now.

Luke the Bear (66:01)

I need to ask her about that.

Joe (66:02)

But I want sonnets.

Michael Tson (66:05)

Michael sat on it. That's what we're. I want to quote from, I think that same chapter, something that I underlined. And I think it's very helpful. Joe says this. Regrettably, the apologetic mandate is frequently misunderstood and misapplied, being being led to believe that apologetics should principally. Should be principally concerned with establishing the truth of Christ Christianity by the ingenuity of the human mind. So you've used the word genius a lot. I liked it. When you use the word ingenuity, which basically means the most creative same word is in there. Absolutely, 100%. Just very applicationally. We'll often go, what's wrong with Christian artists? Like, what happens? And the reason is because there is an ingenuity there that is drawn drawing and emotive and ingenious. Absolutely. Yeah, I know, I know. I prefer the word ingenuity to repeating the word genius. And you turn around and you go, what happened to them in 20 years? Well, because they depended upon their talent, they depended upon their artistry. They really were not thinking of their art Christianly. And so we got duped into some bad thinking because of their genius. And so he goes on to say, it places an impossible and unsustainable burden on fallen man's theoretical reasoning. Whilst. Which, by the way, you're using that.

Luke the Bear (67:44)

Word a lot more now.

Michael Tson (67:47)

You know what? Honestly, I've got people calling me that. They're like, I have people calling me and texting me and saying, did Joe use the word whilst. Whilst he was living in Canada or is that just a new development? I think it's a new development. You know what? It's just like the fact that we talk about the Queen way more than we used to. Now he's back in Britain. But all is to say, he says this unsustainable burden on fallen man's theoretical reasoning Whilst simultaneously failing to challenge unbelievers at the religious root of their willful rebellion against God. That is exactly what has happened. Instead of confronting sin and calling people to Christ depending upon the word, you get into this. This drift of who is the smartest person in the room. And I really appreciate that. That's something, Joe. Well, uncertain things.

Joe (68:40)

Not on sonnets for your wife, apparently.

Michael Tson (68:42)

Dude, you want to. I got some. I'll bring it up right now. Are you reading his bring it up.

Luke the Bear (68:46)

Right now point presentation? Is that what you were doing just now?

Michael Tson (68:48)

No, that's one of my PowerPoint presentations where I quote my founder and president as a brother in Christ. All right, don't dog on me.

Joe (68:57)

It is the critical point that it's not about the reach of our intellect. It's not about how smart we are. The authority is Christ's. And when we don't adulterate the word, what we communicate, communicates with that authority. And it's always original. And that's the thing. The. The whole idea of the genius is that there's something original, something new being brought out. Right? That's the idea. There's a flash of genius, something new, something original.

Luke the Bear (69:24)

It'd be ingenious then.

Joe (69:25)

Yeah, but in the.

Luke the Bear (69:27)

In.

Joe (69:27)

In terms of the gospel, and when we. For the. For the person who doesn't know Christ, the. The message of the gospel is always original and always carries authority. That's the beauty of being a Christian.

Michael Tson (69:45)

And it clarifies it right there in the text, that it's the aroma of death for those who are perishing. That so much of the desire to placate to the human mind, the mob moment, the fickle fans, is that we think that somehow we can only come up with something pleasing for everyone, which after you've pastored for about 15 minutes, you realize, you know, it's amazing thought.

Joe (70:16)

Isn'T it, that we are. We are Christ's. We are the exhibition of Christ's victory. That's what Paul is saying. He exhibits us as a manifestation of his. His victory. I know that's hard when you look at Michael.

Michael Tson (70:31)

No, no.

Joe (70:32)

He's got a face for radio.

Michael Tson (70:33)

Joe just admitted that he was an exhibitionist. Just literally said that.

Luke the Bear (70:38)

Next PowerPoint.

Joe (70:41)

The fact is that. That it is an incredibly encouraging thought to remember that. That we are in. In Christ. We are. We are being. We exhibit his victory as we spread the aroma of the knowledge of God. And that's worth 10 geniuses, right? When we are faithful to the word of God. Amen.

Luke the Bear (70:59)

That's an excellent place to stop. But, but we are going to have an after show. We'll have a quick 15 minute after show, which I want to continue this conversation because this is.

Joe (71:06)

Can we not have Michael on that? Yeah, I'll leave.

Michael Tson (71:08)

You know what?

Luke the Bear (71:10)

Most excellent. I do want to, of course, again mention Dominion Wealth. You saw the commercial at the beginning. We're grateful to be partnering with them. You can go to Reform Money and they'll do a free consultation for you. And they've helped out a lot of people with just their free consultation. So Josiah Stowe's a good brother. Thankful for him. And of course, course, of course, Heritage Defense. If you homeschool your kids, please sign up with Heritage Defense. It's very, very affordable. And you can go to heritagedefense.org and put apology on the coupon code. Get your first month free. We mentioned Bonson quite a bit. You can go to Apology Student and sign up for your free Bonson U account. His son David has blessed us with Greg's entire digital library. It's ginormous. Talking about, you know, having the right mind. That's a good way to get a, get a good head on your shoulders. So then, of course, I want to direct everyone to end abortion now. Like I said, Pastor Jeff is in Georgia right now for our working on our bill there. Good stuff going on there. But you can go to endabortion now.com and help support what we're doing. So, guys, where can people find you? Where do you want to point people to? Where can they get this book?

Michael Tson (72:22)

Ezrapest.com Joe doesn't even know he looked at you. Yeah. Ezrinstitute.com and ezramedia.com that's really where people can go and find everything we're putting together. And we're really excited about all this stuff. So. Yeah. Ezrapress.com ezramedia.com and Ezra institute.com yeah.

Luke the Bear (72:42)

Michael, thanks for being on Brother the Badger.

Michael Tson (72:45)

You're welcome. I'm going to fight a little bit. He does what he wants in the off show.

Joe (72:48)

I'd like this. I like this name.

Michael Tson (72:53)

His claws are coming out.

Luke the Bear (72:55)

Does what he wants. Joe, thanks again, brother.

Joe (72:58)

Pleasure. Thanks for having us on the show. It's good fun. Thank you.

Luke the Bear (73:01)

All right, we'll see you all accessors. We'll see here on the other side. And everyone else will see you next week. God bless.