#346 - Balancing Academia and Professional Practice

Summary

Archispeak Episode #346 – Balancing Academia and Professional Practice

Hosts: Evan Troxel & Cormac Phalen
Date: September 12, 2024

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Evan and Cormac explore the intersection of architectural academia and professional practice, reflecting on Cormac’s new role as an adjunct faculty member and drawing on their extensive experience in both worlds. Through candid discussion, they examine the value of specialties versus generalism in architecture, the practical realities of teaching (and learning) architectural design, and the importance of critical inquiry and reflection in both practice and education. The episode offers authentic insights for students, educators, and professionals alike.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Entering Academia: First Impressions and Challenges

• Cormac’s New Adventure:
  Cormac shares his excitement and uncertainty about joining Lawrence Technological University as adjunct faculty after 25+ years in practice. He highlights the difference between mentoring junior staff in firms and teaching students in an academic program, especially in terms of theory versus pragmatic application.
  “It's going to be really interesting to kind of immerse myself into the world of academia because of my history...it's significantly different when you are teaching the next generation.” (02:15)

• Academic Culture & Credentials:
  The hosts address the role of advanced degrees (notably the PhD) in academic circles versus practical architectural work, questioning what value such titles genuinely bring outside academia.
  “What is the importance of a PhD in architecture?” (Cormac, 04:39)
  “I don't think you need anything else besides a bachelor's degree in architecture...but there are specialties that do matter for sure.” (Evan, 04:53)

2. Specialists vs. Generalists in Architecture

• What Do Specialists Bring?
  Evan and Cormac consider the rise of specializations (sustainability, building envelopes, acoustic consultants) and how they’re marketed as a differentiator for firms.
  “Specialties are where it's at in architecture…for your career and career development.” (Evan, 07:07)
  “Architects have to orchestrate the entire thing…specialists, it's so specific because architecture is nuanced.” (Evan, 07:17)

• Are ‘Specialists’ Still Generalists?
  Cormac notes that people often cross between focused project types, blurring the line between specialization and general practice.
  “There's the specialty and the generalist application of that specialty that they're able to kind of go across the board.” (Cormac, 08:59)
  “A building is a building. I'll figure out how to program a building.” (Cormac, 13:31)

• Academic Implications:
  They debate whether academia may prioritize advanced credentials and specialization for career progression, compared to practice, which values proven experience and adaptability.

3. Bringing Practice to the Studio: Teaching Plans

• Studio Scope:
  Cormac outlines his upcoming Integrated Design Studio 5 (ID5) course, a senior-level project-based studio focusing on urban infill in Flint, MI. Students will engage with real clients and integrate skills across design, sustainability, and urban studies.
  “I'll be teaching...a senior level course...that basically builds upon all the other integrated design courses...They always constantly build onto that until they get to their final projects.” (Cormac, 18:15)

• Collaboration in Teaching:
  He’ll teach alongside other instructors (including a long-time friend of the show, who remains unnamed as an ongoing in-joke), discussing coordinating studio and lab content for consistency across the curriculum.
  “We're going to be working on an urban project...in the city of Flint. They'll have an actual client that they'll be able to meet with...” (Cormac, 19:55)

• Juggling Tech and Tools:
  Lighthearted banter about the quirks of official university-issued hardware versus personal devices and the ongoing headaches of using Microsoft Teams for remote collaboration.
  “My machine's better, just...I totally love and appreciate this computer now, I just don't understand how a Windows machine does not work well with Windows software.” (Cormac, 22:37 & 25:01)

4. Realities of Teaching: Student Dynamics and Expectations

• Class Sizes and Teaching Load:
  The logistics of managing roughly 40 students split among three instructors, and playful “isn’t that cute?” banter about workload compared to large lecture classes.
  “Dividing 40 by 3. And that's all you need to worry about when you're teaching.” (Evan, 28:08)

• Professional Expectations in Academia:
  Cormac reflects on the importance of instilling real-world practice expectations in students—deadlines, responsibility, and the financial/logistical impacts of delays.
  “When you're in practice...and you think you can not do the work…you won't have a job for long.” (Cormac, 30:23)
  “A couple of weeks turns into couples of millions of dollars or more.” (Cormac, 32:15)

• Graduate vs. Undergraduate Students:
  Evan observes that graduate students often exhibit higher maturity and self-motivation than undergraduates, given the additional life context and responsibilities they bring.
  “Grad students were way more on top of things than the undergrads…a different level of maturity.” (Evan, 33:01)

• Engagement is Key:
  The hosts discuss how engaging teaching—not mind-numbing lectures—is crucial for student involvement and learning outcomes.
  “Architectural history. Interesting subject. Boring monotone delivery equals Evan sleeping in class.” (Evan, 34:52)

5. Mentorship, Buy-In, and the Power of 'Why'

• Teaching the ‘Why’, Not Just the ‘How’
  Cormac stresses the importance of explaining the rationale behind tasks, both to junior firm staff and students, arguing it leads to greater buy-in and professional development.
  “Teaching them the point behind what it is that we're asking them to do and what it builds on…” (Cormac, 35:30)

• Critical Thinking Over Monotony
  Both hosts advocate for questioning processes, understanding underlying reasons for tasks, and eliminating needless busywork—within reason.
  “I sit and listen to all these conversations…what people feel like are the complexities or the pain points in the profession. Then why are you doing it? Like, just cut that out…It’s more streamlining.” (Cormac, 37:15)
  “I don't know if that's true…there’s a lot of stuff in the system that just hasn't worked its way out yet.” (Evan, 38:01)

• Story Time with Practicing Architects:
  Evan suggests offering students real-world stories to bridge the ‘reality gap’ faculty-only backgrounds often create—something listeners of the show have repeatedly valued.
  “Thanks for telling us what it's really like to work in the profession of architecture because our professors don't know.” (Evan reflecting on listener feedback, 41:00)

• On-Site Learning and Practical Application:
  Cormac highlights taking emerging professionals to project sites to contextualize drawings with their real-world impact, reinforcing the connection between design, construction, and user experience.
  “When I'm going to ask them to do stuff, I want them to see what it actually means...So when I ask you to do this...you're understanding that it's not just a line on paper.” (Cormac, 41:18)

6. The Importance of Asking 'Why' and Deep Reflection

• The ‘Five Whys’ Approach:
  The value of persistent inquiry is compared to how children question relentlessly—an instinct that fades with time and professional pressure, but is vital for meaningful design.
  “Why? And then you say the answer and then, why?...It's the five whys.” (Evan, 44:01)
  “That's what I've always wanted. Remember, I said I, like, pin up a question mark on my desk…Question everything. Ask why all the time.” (Cormac, 44:19)

• Maintaining Design Intent:
  They reflect on supporting original concepts from programming through construction by continually interrogating if decisions serve the project’s founding ideas.

• Reflection in Deadlines:
  Despite high-pressure schedules, Cormac insists professionals must carve out time for reflection if quality matters, even if only in “sacrificing your own time.”
  “Even with the tight budgets and tight schedules, there is still time to reflect while you're doing it. Sometimes it requires sacrifice of your time to do that, but if it's something that you feel is worth it, you're gonna do it.” (Cormac, 48:07)

7. The Powers of Ten and Seeing the Micro/Macro

• Inspiration from Eames’ Powers of Ten:
  Cormac recounts how his introduction to architecture school involved viewing the short film "Powers of Ten," emphasizing the importance of zooming in and out, seeing both big picture and detail—an approach he carries into both practice and teaching.
  “There was a point behind it…always look at it from the big picture, the small picture, the intermediate picture…” (Cormac, 49:17)

• Translating the Principle Today:
  While digital tools allow easy ‘zooming,’ Cormac muses that the mindset of constant scaling and questioning may sometimes be lost, and he hopes to instill it in students.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Architecture’s Culture of Self-Importance:
  “We tend to create this air of self-importance and create this air of we're kind of a big deal unapproachability.” (Cormac, 02:15)

• On Credentials in Academia vs. Practice:
  “What does one do with a PhD in architecture? Because it's clearly not necessarily practice. Because if it's just practice in the way that I'm talking about practicing, what's the point?” (Cormac, 15:40)

• On the Role of ‘Specialists’:
  “If you do have a specialty in sustainability…it's good for your career because you could get to a higher level faster within corporate America, but also they market you as part of their staff that sets them apart.” (Evan, 07:17)

• On Teaching the ‘Why’:
  “I want you to understand that, like, it's not just a line on paper. It's not just a…component in the model. It really actually means something. And this is what it means, and this is the why. If you don't understand the why, you gotta kind of ask yourself why you're doing it.” (Cormac, 42:30)

• On the Importance of Critical Reflection:
  “Really great projects and really great things that change the world…you have to think deeply about. And you can't just take shortcuts all the time.” (Evan, 47:25)

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Important Timestamps

• 02:15 — Cormac on joining academia after decades in practice.
• 04:39 — Debating the necessity and value of a PhD in architecture.
• 07:07 — Specialization vs. generalist skills in architectural careers.
• 18:15 — Cormac outlines his new studio teaching role and approach.
• 22:37 — The ongoing battle with institutional tech and tools.
• 30:23 — On teaching professional delivery, deadlines, and consequences.
• 35:30 — Mentoring by teaching the purpose behind tasks.
• 41:00 — The value of real-world stories in education.
• 44:01 — The ‘five whys’ and encouraging persistent inquiry.
• 49:17 — The legacy of "Powers of Ten" and micro/macro thinking.

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Tone and Style

• The hosts maintain a conversational, honest, and occasionally irreverent tone, peppered with humor, personal anecdotes, and practical advice.
• The focus is always on real talk: no sugar-coating, plenty of in-jokes, and a clear affection for both the discipline and its foibles.

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Summary

This episode offers an in-depth look at what it means to ‘balance’ between architectural teaching and professional practice. Cormac’s “blue-collar” approach, questions about credentialism, and the hosts’ shared belief in teaching through real-world context and continual self-questioning set the tone for a relatable, insightful discussion—one that’s invaluable for architecture students, educators, and practitioners alike. The episode ultimately champions curiosity, critical thinking, and honest mentorship as the touchstones for meaningful growth in both the academy and the profession.

Transcript

[A]

Rock and roll. So tell me, tell me what you're, what you're up to. You got, you got a new adventure.

[B]

I do have a new adventure. And it's the new adventure in teaching. An adventure that you have taken on.

[A]

Numerous of the occasions, many, many quarters, many semesters.

[B]

Yeah. There is one thing that I am noticing, you know, because I always kind of liken myself to more of a blue collar architect. You know, probably because of my blue collar upbringing, blue collar family and everything else. But contrary to the name of our podcast, the. The one thing that I don't really do is farewell with ARCA speak. I mean it's almost like what's the point of it?

[A]

That's exactly why we named it this, so you could have this turmoil and so that you could express it on this show.

[B]

And, and so one of the interesting things about it is the fact that here we are having this conversation. What is my.

[A]

What was that?

[B]

Something is beeping. We. This needless. What is. What is a good word? This. This needless desire to over complicate the process of architecture, the creation of architecture. The. The.

[A]

It's hubris, dude. It's self importance. It's like it's. We don't. That. That whole like that extremely seriousness. I'm not using the words in the right tenses here.

[B]

Well, maybe that's one of the reasons why we struggle so much with the. The ratio of how many buildings are designed and built or designed by architects versus just kind of a design build or a contractor led or just world.

[A]

Supply of buildings or world.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Because, yeah, you know, we, we tend to create this air of self importance and create this air of we're kind of a big deal unapproachability. One of the things, so it was interesting is so I'm, I'm teaching. I am an adjunct faculty member at Lawrence Technical University in the Detroit metro area. They've got really, really interesting programs all evolving around design, whether it's graphic design, product design, automotive design, automotive engineering, architecture, you name it. And so it's going to be really interesting to kind of like immerse myself into the world of academia because of my history of spending what the last 25 plus years in the world of practice. And even though I've done things like volunteer with ACE mentorship and things like that, and I kind of work with a lot of our junior staff mentoring them, it is significantly different when you are teaching the next generation of up and coming architects.

[A]

Because it depends on the college, I would say.

[B]

I guess it depends on the college. Yeah, because there's. There, There is still that kind of like, you know, rooted in theory to. Than the kind of like, practice kind of things. And, and you know me, I'm going to be coming at it a little bit more on the practice side of things. I'm going to be coming at it the more pragmatic kind of like, almost. Almost in a way of like, why are we doing this? This is unimportant to the real. The reality of architecture.

[A]

Dude, you just, you just wrapped yourself up in a bureaucracy. And I'm using that term loosely. Right. But like, it's a business.

[B]

It, it is in it. But it's interesting because so like, here I am and I'm listening. God, I'm gonna get myself in trouble if. Yeah, you are, but can something. Can somebody tell me what. Boy, I'm gonna sound like an ass.

[A]

You get to edit this. You, you, you can, you can, you can divulge and then edit. How about that? Let's, let's make this psychotherapy section.

[B]

What is the Importance of a PhD in architecture?

[A]

Letters after your name, credentials. I, you know, I'm gonna get in trouble too. So if you're asking me that question.

[B]

I am asking you that question.

[A]

I don't think you need. And so again, like, I'll get in trouble. I don't think you need anything else besides a bachelor's degree in architecture, but I mean, there are specialties that do matter for sure.

[B]

Well, okay, so anyway, there's, you know, let's say, hey, I've got a PhD in, I don't know, building sustainability. Sustainability or building. Building products or, or building envelope or things like that. Things that practitioners gain experience on by doing over and over again. And whether it's through maybe an investment with the firm or an investment in yourself, you go and you pursue, whether it's through seminars or white papers or conferences or things like that that you learn kind of a. You, you teach yourself how to become a specialist in some of these, these things that people are doing, but you do it in a way where you have the practical application of doing it on a project, doing it for a client, doing it in reality where you are actually understand the ramifications.

[A]

You need both. I think you need both.

[B]

Well, I mean, so like, I don't, I don't want to dismiss or downgrade it. I'm. I. That literally, that was legitimately a real question is like, I don't know, because I stopped at a Bachelor's of architecture.

[A]

Yeah, easy for me to say. That's all I have. Right, right.

[B]

You know, so. And I'm not, and I'm not, I absolutely 100am not discounting anybody who has all of the advanced degrees, including a PhD in, in advanced studies of architecture. Because the one thing that you and I always talk about is this lack of research and development in architecture and that other people or people either leave the profession to do that and make money off of doing kind of that advanced research because architects are either uninterested or busy or whatever the excuse is to not do advanced research for the development of the practice of development of what we do. So I'm legitimately asking because I, because I.

[A]

Well, I mean, if I were to just go off the cuff, right, like specialty. We've had this conversation with Michael Ehrman from Amber Book and Virginia Tech, right. We went to dinner with Michael at the AIA conference. Michael's an amazing person. He's been on the Troxell podcast. He's been on this podcast. He's a smart dude and he is absolutely of the mind that specialties are where it's at in, in architecture. I mean, and you, I'm sure he would apply it beyond architecture, right. For the purpose of your career and career development and focus, right? Because I, I think I've always more fallen on the side of generalist because architects have to orchestrate the entire thing, right? We have to deal with the contracts, the design, the, you know, the herding of the cats, the, the ceremonies of the uninvolved. We have multiple, the multi headed clients, we have the stakeholder, you know, all the buzzwords and we have to do all that. But the specialists, like it's so specific because architecture is nuanced, right? Like there's so many tech companies that come into. Why can't you just make it like the assembly line of the automotive industry and apply that to architecture? And it's like, yeah, it actually kind of just doesn't work. And many companies have failed trying to do something like that. And it's because it's so nuanced and so if you do have a. In sustainability, number one, it's good for your career because it, you could get to a higher level faster. I do believe within corporate America, corporate architecture firms, but also they market you as part of an integral part of your staff that sets them apart from everybody else, right? So not everybody has that position. Not everybody has that credentialed individual or individuals working on their teams. And I mean we see that in a lot of larger firms, right?

[B]

So what's happening. What's interesting about that. So we have those architects who have specialized in sustainability and the whole process of materials and construction waste, the whole like everything that they need to know about. Let's. I'm going to generalize the way that I explain this. The lead process or the sustainable process on a project. But they still in a way are somewhat generalist because they're. They approach every building very much the same way. And so there's the speciality or specialty and the generalist application of that specialty that they're able to kind of like go across the board. And I know that, that even when I'm saying it, it sounds a little weird, but. And it could be like way off, way wrong. But I mean, it's just, it seems when we say, when I think of specialists, maybe that is what I am actually thinking of because I've worked for firms that have specialized in chip like now just higher education buildings. But there's specific types within higher education that we have broken down in our higher education because that's all we do is higher education. We have campus planning, we have student housing, we have kind of more like STEM type buildings and then cultural resource buildings and things like that. So, but whereas that is a speciality of the types of projects we go after, it's still a very generalist approach to the overall thing because people bounce back and forth between projects and the project types and stuff. And so I may be working on a lab building today and I will be doing a cultural asset like storage facility or something like that.

[A]

On another one, I was thinking you sound like a. You're like one of the Bourne movies talking about cultural assets. You're Jason Bourne.

[B]

Well, I mean, we do, we, you know, we have a cultural arts studio that actually does things like we have a continuing contract with Smithsonian, with national parks and things like that. And so that's where I don't think.

[A]

Of specialties in market segments, although that definitely exists, like healthcare planner. And that's why I was very specific. I actually think more on the technology side. Design technologists, BIM managers. Right. Like there's computational designers. There's definitely been a boom in that area. And even to the point now where we're not even hiring architects in firms to fill roles like data analysts and developers, people are doing software development, things like that. Very specific. And I think what's interesting, that has never interested me. I'm interested in design, I'm interested in projects across the board, and I like variety. And then there's other people who Want to really like, niche down and do this very specific stuff. Like, I mean, to Michael, back to Michael Ehrman. Right. Architectural acoustics, that's his thing. That's where he got his foothold in the industry. And because he was so specific in that he was the go to guy and he got to get on the phone and talk to Raphael Vignoli about a theater project. Right. Because no one else knew the words to say.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So it's interesting to think about, like, my role trended toward technology and I built a network around technologists and that opened doors. And I think that's harder maybe to do as a generalist. I mean, and so that's why people trend toward a role in architecture that is like design or technical or specifications or, you know, actually doing code research or things like that. Because, like, you become so valuable in that thing that you do that you become kind of a linchpin in your firm and they can't live without you. Right. And so that's why people trend towards these kind of really more specific roles.

[B]

Yeah. So like, as I said, I was getting the whole usage of specialist clearly wrong. And that. That's fine, I'll admit it. I was wrong with it.

[A]

Well, no, like, back to your point, like, there are people who do healthcare architecture, period. Right. And so like that, that is a thing for sure. I mean, but, but at the same time, like, I don't see it that way. A building is a building. I'll figure out how to program a building.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. It's funny, as I was having a conversation with somebody and referring to myself as a specialist is like, you give me a building, I will. If I've never done figure it out. If I. Yeah. If I've never done it before, I will find the people who will help me in the planning process, the things that, that will achieve it. But a building, I can do a building.

[A]

You put a building together, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And anyway, why did you ask this question in the beginning? Where, where were you going with this about the specialists and the PhDs and the. Well, is it an academia kind of a thing?

[B]

Because we were having. So, you know, I was involved with my first kind of like, you know, faculty meetings the other day, and people were introducing them, they went around the room. Everybody kind of introduced themselves and stuff like that. And some people were saying, you know, licensed, practicing architect. Other people were sitting here saying, I'm this, I'm that, you know, and then a few people were just like, I'm, I'll be teaching this and I've got a PhD in this and this and this. And honestly, because it was never really an offering where I went to school or really, to be quite honest with you, it literally sort of. I almost consider sometimes the, like, I was perfectly suited to go to the school that I went to because of my own mentality on the way that I approached architecture and sort of the way that a lot of the people who taught and teach at. At Auburn are very much like that. You know, the whole mentality behind the Rural Studio is this kind of like, roll up your sleeves and do whatever the hell it is that you need to do to do this. And it's like you become the Swiss army knife of the project. You, whatever tool you need that you're there kind of thing. And so I, I honestly was legitimately asking. It's like, I don't. Because of everything that I do in architecture, every like, role, every hat that I've worn, everything that I've done, I've been able to do it under the, the limited role of just having a bachelor's degree in architecture.

[A]

You're not pursuing, becoming an academic. And that's, I mean, the people that you're talking to are. And that is what won them that role. I mean, among other things. Right.

[B]

And again, you know, where the question was coming from is like, you know, what do you. What does one do with a P. PhD in architecture? Because it's clearly not necessarily practice. Because if it's just practice in the way that I'm talking about practicing, what's the point? What's the point of having one? So, you know, it was legitimately just a question of curiosity, of just, hey, I kind of like hemmed and hawed about, oh, I can. I'm going to get myself in trouble. Because I wasn't sure how to phrase it without sounding offensive is like, you know, what's the point of it? But it wasn't necessarily demeaning it. I was just curious, what the hell do you do with it?

[A]

Well, the beauty of this is you don't just get to ask me. We get to. The audience can give us feedback and provide that. I mean, my general sense is, number one, like, it solidifies your position as a specialist in said area, which becomes not only like a backstop of expertise within the firm, but or in academia, but also as a marketing, promotional outward statement to say, like, we care about this stuff so much that we've hired the experts who pursued that through academia. Right. To achieve that. And then they're working on your project and that could be a differentiator. Right. When it comes to winning work. Because we do compete for work.

[B]

I mean, we use subject matter experts all the time for very specific roles within the project. And that's the, that's the, you know, I'm starting to, as we talk about it, answer that question.

[A]

It's like work it out.

[B]

Those are, those are the specialists. Those are the people who do have the PhDs or the advanced studies or the advanced research in that specific thing. So, you know, if we're talking about like a Michael Lerman and we're saying that we have. Because we use acousticians all the time and they are very specific about what it is that our understanding of what it is that sound does to a building and the material choices and the way that you lay it out and all of that other stuff. And then that then helps us as the designer and the technical architects achieve the goals. Yeah, exactly. Take that data and achieve the goals. Yes.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're a new adjunct faculty member. You're launching into a new adventure. So, okay, so now that we've gotten that, your question about, like, why these specialties matter, talk about what you're actually going to be doing.

[B]

I will be teaching a. What's called a ID5, which is Integrated Design Studio Level 5, which is a senior level course that basically builds upon all of the other integrated design courses that they take throughout the year, which builds on things like concept planning and urban studies and all the different things that they are learning about sustainability and everything kind of. They always can constantly build onto that until they get to their final projects in what's called comp design, which is a comprehensive design which takes all of the knowledge that they built over the course of the five years and then does a big project for. To basically illustrate that they've learned all of this stuff throughout the course of the however many years they've been there.

[A]

So that is that. Would you, would you, would you equate that to a thesis project like we. That's what we had.

[B]

We called it. Yeah, yeah, I would. I would. And so what this particular course will be focusing on, and it's still a work in progress. I'm actually going to be teaching with a friend of the show, with a friend of ours that has constantly failed to produce coffee for you.

[A]

Still nameless.

[B]

So he still doesn't get it.

[A]

Still nameless. Yep. Hasn't earned it.

[B]

Exactly. You know, has not earned the right to be. To have his name used until Evan gets his coffee.

[A]

But, but true, it's absolutely true.

[B]

Yeah. But you know, shame.

[A]

He's a shame.

[B]

He's been teaching for a while and now he is full time staff and. And so he. He's kind of leading the studio effort. And where there's three studio instructors, him, another guy and myself. And we're going to be working on an urban project, an urban infill project in the city of Flint. They'll have like an actual client that they'll be able to meet with, which is a client that, you know. Almost said his name. Had to back up there. Whoa, good sound effect.

[A]

You almost said the name.

[B]

Almost said his name.

[A]

You could have bleeped it out. It would have been okay.

[B]

Has kind of put together, which is a really interesting. And I will definitely talk more about it like once the actual assignment is pulled together. We were in fact just before recording we're having a meeting with studio and lab instructors to kind of like coordinate everything that's going to be taught in at least the first half of the semester and make sure that there's quantifiable like correlations between what's being taught in lab and what's being taught in studio. It's a little bit different than what I'm used to because basically what's the.

[A]

Difference between a lab and a studio or you mean lecture in studio?

[B]

Well, I mean, so where, where we would typically have. In our. In my studios, we would have lecture and studio all kind of combined. So sometimes you would. You would be doing lecture, sometimes you would be doing like actual studio work and things like that. This is sort of separate so that like the. There is a certain requirement of things that they would be doing in a lecture type format. They're doing that in what they call a lab. And then everything else that they will be doing.

[A]

That'S so confusing to me.

[B]

Let me learn terminology. Yeah, let me learn it first and I'll have a better. I mean, dude, this is literally not.

[A]

Even at day one yet.

[B]

Yeah, right. I just went yesterday to pick up my faculty id. That's about how far into the adventure I am now.

[A]

You can get discounted software and what else? I don't know.

[B]

Well, they keep. Nothing. They keep asking me. They're like, had you, have you gone and got your faculty computer yet? And like now. And they're like, well, you know, it's got all the different software and stuff on it. I was like, well, what software? And they're like, well, it's got this, this, this, this and this. I'm like, well, I've got Revit 2020-2024.

[A]

You can't use the, you can't use the company machine for that right now. Your. But my IT department would not be happy.

[B]

But honestly, my machine's better just.

[A]

Of course it is. Of course it is. I, I never ever got a school machine. Never once. It was, it was. Just assumed it was bring your own device, so. Well, at least you get the option.

[B]

Well, they do. And actually, you know, they, they are, I mean, they're, they're just a Lenovo ThinkPad. And who uses those? I mean, a lot of people. Why? Why what?

[A]

That's a good brand. What are you talking about?

[B]

Yeah, whatever, you know, I mean, it was, it was so undesirable that IBM sold them.

[A]

Oh, no, I think that's one of the quality, one of the more quality brands out there. So still.

[B]

It probably is, actually.

[A]

It probably is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. They still have that cute little red dot mouse thumb thing in there.

[B]

Yeah, they do.

[A]

In addition to the trackpad. I remember when like the first thinkpads came out with that and it was.

[B]

Like, well, which is.

[A]

So here's like a little pencil eraser in the middle of the keyboard.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. It was just like, do I like. Or. Or it's like, you know, oh, my fingers, my finger itches and you can just like rub it up against the.

[A]

Yeah, it's a very rough.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Scratching post in the middle of your keyboard.

[B]

You know, it's, it's what's interesting about. So everybody, like, I didn't have time to go and get my computer yesterday, so I, I didn't. And I still have an opportunity to go and get my computer later. But at the time I didn't have. There was just too many things going on. Plus while I was there, I was also trying to work and answering a lot of questions and all this other stuff. So we were sitting in a architectural. Factory. Factory. Yes, I was sitting in the factory. But. But while I was at the factory, I was also in a faculty meeting. I'll get that word right. And everybody was like doing their little work and all that other stuff. And here I am and I'm like, people are sending me images and they were like, hey, can you mark this up and let me know what else I need to change and stuff. And here I am with my little stylus and I'm like drawing on the computer and I'm change.

[A]

I'll remind you, you did not like this computer when you first got it.

[B]

You did not appreciate it. Totally.

[A]

You've got you've done a U turn here.

[B]

I have to.

[A]

I've done a 180.

[B]

I totally love and appreciate this computer. Now I still don't understand how a Windows machine does not work well with Windows software. That I don't understand. Let me explain.

[A]

Are you talking about like teams or.

[B]

What are you talking about? So on teams, if I'm just a.

[A]

Piece of junk, teams.

[B]

Teams is garbage. But yet for some reason everybody loves to use teams. And so clients are using teams.

[A]

I like mediocre. Yeah.

[B]

I guess. Yes, that, that's the thing. And so they're like, hey, Cormac, can you share your screen? And I'm like, let me preface this by saying that I can share my screen. You will see the first image I put up. But I, when I advance, it doesn't advance for you, it advances for me. And I can see things moving.

[A]

Everything's fine on my end, but.

[B]

But on yours it does it. Nothing moves, nothing changes. And I've had like, I, I have to do these presentations where I start and stop sharing each time. I, I'm going to the next slide, I'm going to stop, I'm going to reshare my screen so you can see the next slide. And they've literally given me three, three machines, two Z books and this. And for some, I don't know if it's something that is.

[A]

It's you. Operator error.

[B]

Well, here's the, here's the interesting thing. There is a very, very well known glitch between Microsoft computers and Microsoft hardware specifically.

[A]

I was gonna say there's a very known glitch between Cormac Phelan and his computer.

[B]

There is that too. There is that too. I, I use computers. Let's just put it this way on your resume.

[A]

I use computers.

[B]

I care so little about actually learning how to use this that I just use enough to actually get me by throughout the day. It is a just. It's a digital notepad for me, it is a digital sketch pad for me. It is a digital talking machine like you know, we're doing right now. But other than that I don't really care.

[A]

It's an appliance.

[B]

It's an appliance. It is, it's just an appliance.

[A]

So how many students are you going to have?

[B]

So between the three instructors and we kind of like rotate during like doing desk crits and things like that, but there are 40 students in the ID5.

[A]

Studio, so kind of. Okay, so what do you mean by rotate? Are you going to be teaching all of them or doing the desk crits for all 40 at the same time?

[B]

No, no, no, not at the same time. So we'll divide that by three. One, one professor will have like a group of students and then the other two will have equal split between that.

[A]

I get to pull a Cormac Phelan. Now I get to say isn't that cute? Isn't that just cute what you just said? Dividing 40 by 3. And that's all you need to worry about when you're teaching.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

I think the last time I talked about some budget on a project, you're like, oh, that's a cute budget. So I've had courses anywhere from 20 to 120. And let me tell you, the 120, that's not fun when it comes to grading season, I'll tell you that. Oh my goodness.

[B]

I mean, you know, like I've. I'm married to an actual teacher.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And trust me.

[A]

But you just did it. You just did it. Isn't that cute? I'm married to an actual teacher.

[B]

Oh, that sounded so horrible. You know, college is fine. But I'm sorry.

[A]

So what you mean by that is teachers who come home and cry at night. Because that's what real teachers do. Well, I mean it's kind of like architecture.

[B]

Let me expand on that. Cry while drinking. Cry.

[A]

This is why mommy drinks.

[B]

Cry while self medicating. Why self numbing? You know, I. It's just like the reason we're laughing.

[A]

Because it's all we can do to cope.

[B]

The reason why they can go back the next day with a smile on.

[A]

Their face is because they forget.

[B]

Because they've drank themselves into forgetting the day before. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'll tell you that's. Yeah. And I don't necessarily think it was interesting is like the conversations that were having. It's just like you're gonna have these students who, they don't want to do the work or they're just going to be kind of like a wallflower and all this other stuff. And they're just like, you're just gonna have to learn to kind of deal with them and all of this other stuff. I'm like, deal with them. Here's the conversation you have with them. Listen, when you're in practice, when you're actually doing this for real and you're getting a paycheck and you think that you can not do the work or.

[A]

Earning, it's like, it's like having a conversation with a kid.

[B]

Right. You won't have a job for long. Like, we can't just like, oh, can I have a little bit of extra time? It's just like clients don't, you know, when we issue a, you know, a schedule or we're working with say a construction manager who is obligated to have a schedule. And I had this conversation with our construction manager and our client today and we were talking about the schedule and impacts and delays in some of the modifications of designs that we're doing for, for this, this lab building. And I've talked about it, about this transition from the generic labs to a, these specific labs. And we were talking specifically about like, well, like if, if we don't get these design changes by X date, it's going to have impact. The overall construction and delivery and opening and turnover of the building and everything else. Huge financial and logistic implications. Huge. And, and of course we're talking about, well, we need this information, that information and all this other stuff to make these decisions. Have everybody stick to them and so we can move on. Whatever that part is. That's not really the point of this. It's like the, it's all of the implications of the finances of it. The. And so when you say, oh, I can't really turn it in right now or I haven't been working on it, can I get a couple more weeks? And all this other stuff in couple of weeks turns into couples of millions of dollars or more than that, you know, and stuff like that, I mean, that's huge. And that's the conversation that you have with him about like, the reason why we're asking you to do this work is we're training you to understand and how to deal with the challenges within the profession of being able to stay on task, being able to deliver when you're, when you've promised this. And because when you say, here is my delivery schedule for my deliverables and then the contractor builds off of that and they build theirs and then financing goes through and they built it off of the construction schedule and, and it slips. Who's the, the client is going to say who's going to pay for all of this overage that I now have to incur because of delays in the schedule. Yeah, that's what you have. It's a lot. And this is me being naive, not being in the classroom yet and all of this other stuff. But, you know, you know, like, yeah, when, when we're talking about, well, I really need this extra time. It's just like, tell the contractor, tell.

[A]

The client, I'll Tell you, like, with the courses that I taught, the grad students were way more on top of things than the undergrads. Yeah, way more. Way more invested in their own education. And. And okay, so I taught. The bulk of my teaching was 2000 to 2010, so it's been a while. And then I taught a few courses at the, you know, 2017, 2018, 2019 time. And that was to a wide range of students. But there were a lot of grad students in there as well. But the grad students were. Because they already had been. They already have an undergrad. Right. So they already understand the workload and they're balancing maybe a family life and they're balancing a job, you know, and. And like, you have to be on top of things. You have to be on top of scheduling and when you're going to get things done and what all the deadlines are and who needs what by when. It's just a different level of maturity. I think that's really what you're talking about here, right? It's like this level of potential immaturity. You don't know yet. But I mean, being engaging, I think is the first part of winning that battle. Right. Because if you have an engaging course that isn't out of control with the workload, I think you're going to get great. You know, like, people are going to want to show up and they're going to want to do the things that you're asking them to do. I think there's a lot of courses that I took. We had a conversation about this recently, right? Like architectural history. Interesting subject. Boring monotone delivery equals Evan sleeping in class. Like, that's what. That's what that was. Right. And that's the class I learned how to sleep in class in. Right. And that's not like, I'm not saying that something that is a badge of honor.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's unfortunate, but it be. But the engagement is what I'm focusing in on here. There was a complete lack of engagement. And the teachers that I wanted to engage with, like, they had 100% of my attention and 100% of my commitment to deliver. And usually that was Design Studio. Like, that's how architecture school kind of is. Right. But also, you're teaching Design Studio. Like, you don't have to compete with Design Studio. You are Design Studio. So I think, I think, you know, maybe there is a difference in students today, but I think, you know, the odds are stacked in your favor at least. And, like, it's the core class that these Students are showing up for.

[B]

The one thing that I found is very successful in just working and mentoring younger staff and stuff is teaching them the point behind what it is that we're asking them to do and what it builds on and what it supports in the progression of a project, the progression of your, of your career. All of these things that, what we may find as simple or boring or pointless tasks, what they really are intended for, what it really supports. And a lot of times you get more buy in on people who realize, oh, you know what? I get it. That's, that's why I have to do these details or something. Or this is why I have to do like this research on what.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, the contribution, right, to the, to the overall goal and looking at it from a big picture perspective rather than just like the, the monotony of the potential, the potential monotony of the.

[B]

Task that's been assigned, you know, because if you're talking about like, hey, I want them to do some work, but it's going to be like more busy work and all of this other stuff if there is no contribution to like, say, the end goal of a project or, you know, the end goal of your career or whatever, you got to ask yourself, what's the point of actually doing it? You know, and, and it may sound like it's being lazy on something, but I look at it this way. It's more streamlining. It's just like, is this going to benefit, Is all of this busy work going to benefit the, the project? Yes or no? Yes. Okay. And then it's like that whole little diagram. It's just like troubleshooting something. It's like, have you, I'm sure you've seen those things. Like the little diagram, it's just like, yes, then keep doing it.

[A]

No, like, like the flowchart.

[B]

Yeah, like the little flowchart of like, yeah, of like an engineer's flowchart or something. It's just like, right, will this work on the project?

[A]

Yes or no? Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And then, then it gives you the next steps of. It's like, good job. You've cut all of this out of like your process and it's made life easier on you. It's just like we. I sit and I listen to all these different conversations, both now academically as well as in the profession. And I listen to people, what people feel like are the complexities or the pain points in the profession. And I think to myself, well, what then? Then why are you doing it? Like, just cut that out. Because, like, clearly that's not needed in the process of what it, whatever it is that you're doing. So just don't do it like it's the, you know, for you to say.

[A]

I don't know if that's true. Like, like you can't just apply that filter to it because obviously there's a lot of things we have to do because it's the way somebody requires it or you know, the way we've always done it. We've heard that before. But there's a lot of, there is a lot of, there's a lot of stuff in the system that just hasn't worked its way out yet.

[B]

Yeah, well, you should. It would be really interesting if I could like invite you like blind CCU on some of my meetings and just see how I conduct meetings differently than like I was taught how to conduct meetings. Because I do try to cut a lot of that crap out. I'm like, there is no point in me sitting here talking about the, the process of how I got to where I am. I'm going to tell you that there was a process I got to where I am. The reason why I got to where I am is because of X, Y and Z. And that was the, that was the actual driving factors of why the design now looks like it is because I'm preparing a, I'm preparing a presentation for a user group for tomorrow and they're going to see a significantly different floor plan from what was presented in the last meeting. There is a whole lot of implications of, of why it's changed. And so that's where I'm spending my time is explaining to them what were the ramifications of what made it, what made me change it. Explain to them so that they understand like the rationales of why I chose to change it because of impacts and schedule impacts in constructability. Like all of these other things, some, some unnecessary things that we would have to do to make things work that doesn't really benefit the overall space, their use of it and all of that other stuff. So I basically chose to streamline things and here is the result. And like, I think one of the interesting things about one of our clients that they kind of appreciate my like, no nonsense approach to, like there is no reason for us to sit and kind of like just jabber on about like the, the touchy feely things of, of all of this. Like at the point where I am right now in like construction, I will talk about the emotional attachment to design and all of that other stuff when it's Appropriate when we're talking about design, but when I'm talking about, like, trying to get something constructed, that. Or reconstructed because it was already built, now we're building it again, there is no point in wasting time talking about, like, the. The nuances of the design. Let's just talk about. Here's the result. Do you like it? Yes or no? Yes. Flowchart.

[A]

This. This is the kind of thing that I think you should start your course, your classes out with. It's like story time with Cormac. Here's what happened this week and the realities of a practicing architect, which I think a lot of their faculty cannot provide. I mean, and I'm not specifically talking about Lawrence Tech, but I'm, you know, architectural faculty in general. A lot of, you know, we've gotten a lot of feedback over the years.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Saying thanks for telling us what it's really like to work in the profession of architecture because our professors don't know. Right, right. And. And this kind of thing that you could potentially say, I guess, would. I think would be really valuable. It'd be. It'd be like, oh, that's what it's really like. I had no idea. That's what it's really like.

[B]

Well, you know, one of the things. You've heard me say this, and everybody's probably heard me say this through the course of, like, our recording, this is one of my favorite things, is to take new graduates and new hires out on site, because when I'm going to ask them to do stuff, I want them to see what it actually means to do that. Like, I'm telling you to draw this in a bathroom plan. Let's walk around the bathroom plan. The reason why I'm kind of, like, neurotic about maybe the way that this is laying out is because this is an adaptive reuse or a renovation project. And there are some ramifications. There are some constraints that you have to work around. I want you to understand that, like, so, like, things actually have a point to it. Things make sense for a reason, and these are the reasons. And so when I ask you to do this, or I assign you to do this or, like, whatever, you're understanding that, like, it's not just a line on paper. It's not just a. Some component in the model. It really actually means something. And this is what it means, and this is the why. I mean, if you're not doing anything and not. And you don't understand the why, you got to kind of ask yourself why you're doing it.

[A]

Yeah. Right, Yeah. I was gonna say, like, the whole time you're saying that. Why, why, why. It's important to understand why for sure.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Well, I mean, if. If. Then you can ask, why am I doing this? And then, you know, you can have the conversation about, oh, you're doing. Why you're doing this is because of this, this, this, and this. Or. Or it'll impact this. Or we're doing such. This rigor of this design and these alignments and everything else. Thinking about this ARCA marathon reel that they just posted about a building, a Renzo building that they had. Had visited, and they were like, following these lines around and all of the rigor of things, and it's just like, oh, my gosh, look at the edge of the. The pattern in the tread and how it aligns with the handrail and how it aligns with the. The mullions of the window and all of this other stuff.

[A]

We're architects, which. But realign things.

[B]

Yeah, but those are the whys. Just like when. When some. When I assign somebody to do something and they want to know why, those are the things that I want to talk about, like how those. Why support the other things that we're trying to achieve. And if you just get. Take the assignment and you don't ask why, then you're kind of missing the point of, like, how you can grow and learn and how you can do really enriching designs and all of this other stuff. And so, you know.

[A]

I mean, it reminds me of little kids, right?

[B]

Why?

[A]

Why? And then you say the answer and then, why? And then you say the answer and then why? And it, like, it's the five whys. It's. It's how many. How deep can you go?

[B]

I swear.

[A]

And we do lose that. Like, that gets kind of pulled out of you. Numbed. I don't know, like, what's the right word?

[B]

I've talked to you about a friend of mine and a co worker, and she. She's just like, hey, Cormac, you're probably going to get tired of me asking all of these questions about all this other stuff, but I just really need to understand what it is that we're doing, why we're doing it, and all that other stuff. And so if you ever get, you know, frustrated with me asking all these questions, just let me know. I'm like, I'm not going to get frustrated with you asking questions, because that's what I want. That's what I've always wanted. Remember, I said I, like, pin up A question mark on my desk. And it's like question everything. Question, ask why all the time. Like, and if you. That's what this conversation that I've been talking about, like the idea and the execution and you know, to successfully like link those two together, it's always that question of that, that, that, that inquiry that, that questioning like, have I successfully implemented all of these designs? So the diagram is read in the final production. And when we were talking about the I, I called it in the last episode, I called the slide house. It's the sliding house. And I knew that I just kept saying slidehouse for some reason from Brian McKay Alliance. And he was in. You. You had said, well, you can really see the diagram. Like the diagram, the, the idea, the concept. The diagram reads in the final, final production. And that's kind of what the questions support is. You, you are questioning in your concept, like all of these different ideas, all of these notions through design development. You should be questioning why and how you're supporting that initial concept through construction documents. You're questioning how you're supporting the design development and the concept. And it's just like this constant, like keep going back and zooming in, zooming out, zooming in, zooming out to make sure that you're like following through, following true to like the original concept. And that's what gets the Capital A architecture right.

[A]

Yeah. I think one of the things that it encourages is deep thinking. And I don't think there's enough of that in today's world, which is like, just do what I told you. Or, you know, we have, we have a deadline, just get it done. And I think what asking why encourages is actual reflection.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And. And it, it forces you, if you take it seriously, to think critically and say, yeah, why do we do this? It's not, it's not even important for you to come back with an answer. Maybe you have it, maybe you don't, but. But it encourages you to say, you know, like, slow down so that we can actually assess the situation and then move forward together. I think that that is. Doesn't happen enough. And there's this weird encouragement to just go fast, go fast, take shortcuts. The incentives are.

[B]

And we all know this schedule the time. We don't have time to question why. Just do.

[A]

Really great projects and really great things that change the world or change the outcome of the project or the clients or the organization or whatever you have to think deeply about. And you can't just take shortcuts all the time. So. Yeah, I mean it's important. And if there's one thing I guess, that we could take away from this conversation is like, yeah, spend the time to do that more often. I mean, you can't. You can't do it all the time. But notice the moments when it really matters and actually do it. Because if you don't, if you're just regurgitating.

[B]

Right.

[A]

The progress is not made.

[B]

I don't. And I'm going to say this is somebody who is a habitual overworker that I think even with the tight budgets in the tight schedules, there is still time to reflect while you're doing it. Sometimes it requires sacrifice of your time to do that, but if it's something that you feel is worth it, you're gonna do it. I mean, in. And if you don't, then you're gonna. Gonna get what you get. And a lot of times people are okay with just getting what they get. It's just. Yeah. I mean, I was telling. My plan is if. If no one else is going to. I will show in, like, the early stages of the studio. I will sit down with everybody and I will pull out my laptop and I'm gonna pull up YouTube and I am going to show. Because even though I do have it on dvd, good luck finding something to play it, because I don't even have a computer that, you know, plays a dvd.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

But Eames is Powers of ten. I honestly have the day that I got into architecture school, the very first day after we had our convocation and we talked about, like, you know, welcome to architecture school, and this is the challenges you're going to face and all of this other stuff. Now here are your studio professors and go meet with them. And it's just like. And then we got together with all of the first year students and we're sitting here huddled inside our studio and there's everybody, all the professors are there together and all of the students are there together. The very first thing they showed before they ever started working or talking about anything that we were going to be doing, they showed powers of 10 and there was a point behind it. And I think we've. We've been talking about that point tonight, but. Or now, but we've. I think a lot of people lose the point behind all of that, that zooming in, zooming out, looking at how everything is interconnected, looking at the adjacencies, looking at it from so many different perspectives that you're always questioning the. Why you're always questioning the end stuff. And that isn't I've asked on numerous occasions, anybody that I've, like, I've even gone back to Auburn. They don't show it anymore. I've gone back to. I've done all of these different, like, crits at different schools and stuff. They don't show it. And it's just like, there's some. There's something about the 10 minutes that it takes to actually look at that video and really understand what it is that Charles and Ray were talking about when they did it and what kind of like the whole intent of it, that it's literally something that I've carried through my entire career.

[A]

I hope that they can get as much out of it as you did. I won't count on it. But.

[B]

And maybe the other people that were sitting with me in studio didn't get. Wasn't impacted the same way I was with it. It was always these, like, always look at it from the big picture, the small picture, the intermediate picture. Like, the thing that I learned about when we were doing hand drawings, right, you know, back in the old day, back in the day when we were doing hand drawings and stuff like that, is that you could literally stand up from your desk, take a few steps back, stare at it and say, all right, what am I not seeing? What else do I need to look at?

[A]

Now you just move the scroll wheel.

[B]

And now you scroll in, scroll out, and all this other stuff. But then you're like, but I don't. I don't. Maybe. Maybe I. Maybe I should disagree with myself on this one, is that I don't see that it's the. The same thing. And really, to be quite honest with you, you could see more with just scrolling in and out. I mean, like, hell, I've got, like, on one of my other screens, I've got NavisWorks open, which is like the entire development that this one university in Riyadh is that we're doing is. And it's got the whole entire development. So when you scroll out, you literally see it as a spec within the overall development. And then when you scroll back in, you know, you start to see it and all this other stuff. And that's kind of the point is, like, does it blend in well with the. The overall intent of the design language of this particular development and stuff like that?

[A]

So micro macro. Micro macro.

[B]

Micro macro.

[A]

Yep. Cool, man. Well, I'm looking forward to the stories and your experience doing this, and we'll see how this plays out.

[B]

Yeah, I'm.

[A]

I.

[B]

It's one of those that I'm very optimistic and very hopeful that it is everything that I thought it would be.

[A]

That's the beginning of the school year right there.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And then at the end of the school year, it's a little different.

[B]

And granted, I was dealing with a bunch of high schoolers and, you know.

[A]

You live with a teacher?

[B]

Oh, yes, I do.

[A]

A real teacher, real feature.

[B]

Oh, I'm gonna get some crap for that, I'm sure.

[A]

Cool, man. Well, exciting. All right. Until next time.

[B]

Exactly.