#348 - Witnessing the Birth of Passion

Summary

Archispeak Podcast #348 – Witnessing the Birth of Passion

Hosts: Evan Troxel & Cormac Phalen
Date: September 23, 2024

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Evan and Cormac dive into the realities of teaching architecture, real-life project constraints, and what it feels like to ignite passion in the next generation of architects. They cover their own pop-culture influences, their takes on architecture in cinema, and the collaborative, sometimes messy, process of studio teaching. Central to the discussion is Cormac’s firsthand experience co-teaching an integrated studio focused on an adaptive reuse project in Flint, Michigan. The episode is an authentic and lively conversation about mentorship, architectural education, and maintaining a spark for the field.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Architecture in Pop Culture and Cinema

• The episode begins with a playful discussion around movies and depictions of architects in Hollywood.
• The hosts consider the portrayal of architects in films like The Lake House and Inception, poking fun at both accuracy and dramatic license.
• Upcoming movies such as The Brutalist with Adrien Brody pique their interest, sparking a tangent on brutalist architecture and the amalgamation of real-life inspiration for fictional architects.
  • [05:06] Cormac: "Which makes it sound like he's a brutalist. What is the most architectural sounding name we can make?"
  • [02:49] Cormac: "Yeah, I know. Because you know that Hollywood portrays architects perfectly. Like Keanu."
• Light-hearted banter about drawing skills and games like Pictionary transitions the conversation toward creativity and perception in architectural practice.

2. Teaching Studio: Real-World Constraints, Real Passion

• Cormac discusses his experience co-teaching "ID5 – Integrated Design Level 5," a studio built around a real site and client in Flint, Michigan.
• The program emphasizes integration of concurrent coursework (structures, code, urban design) directly into the studio's active project, mirroring actual architectural practice.
• Innovations were introduced by shuffling team compositions to ensure each design team has members with different areas of expertise from earlier research, aiming to mirror real project collaboration dynamics.
  • [18:11] Coffee Boy: “Who's the new guy? They're like looking around, who's the new guy here?”
  • [21:18] Cormac: “Well yeah, but in practice we do it all the time. I mean every time our group… even a sole practitioner does a group project. Because if you have engineers, if you have contractors… you're going to be working with someone else…”

Pedagogical Approach

• Assignments include precedent studies (focused on grassroots architecture for nonprofits), urban and code analysis, and adaptive reuse plans.
  • [19:52] Coffee Boy: “When you say Flint, I just want the listeners to understand that you're located in. In Michigan.”
• Real-client involvement from the International Center of Greater Flint, led by a local director, includes direct Q&A sessions for students.
• The curriculum structure gives students a clear roadmap of interconnected assignments and encourages narrative continuity.
  • [23:57] Cormac: "…it's basically like a syllabus, but it's broken up projects and they get to actually see what's coming. So they know why they're doing this step."

Noteworthy Teaching Moments

• The importance of fieldwork: students are encouraged to perform on-site analysis, not just rely on online resources.
  • [37:46] Cormac: “…I told the story about having to write a precedent study and then I decided to… drive to that precedent study so I could see it and like really talk about it… If Google Earth and Google Maps existed and Street View existed back then, yeah. I wouldn't have made that drive. Yeah, maybe I probably would have.”
• Encouraging critical perspectives in research and the identification of bias in data collection.
  • [24:16] Coffee Boy (Evan): "I want… to pass a link along to one of my podcast episodes called Design Equity and Data… talking about how data that has even been collected potentially has a bias attached to it."

3. Navigating Constraints and Fostering Creativity

• Discussion on constraints (codes, programs, site realities) as enablers rather than killers of creativity.
  • [39:08] Cormac: "I tried to explain to them, 'constraints do not kill creativity.'"
• Adaptive reuse is discussed as a particularly rich challenge, blending old and new, and demanding both technical solutions and imaginative thinking.
  • [29:37] Cormac: “…I've been doing a lot of them, doing adaptive reuse projects. I find the whole thing this exciting challenge."
• Debate among instructors is openly shared with students, modeling discourse and the reality that design is rarely a straightforward process.

4. The Heart of Teaching: Witnessing the Spark

• Cormac reflects on the unique energy and “birth of passion” he observes in his students.
  • [43:16] Cormac: “What it has done for me is… it's kind of exciting to like be around this doe-eyed energy.”
  • [43:36] Cormac: "…to see the birth of these people's passion into why they want to do this. And… it kind of reminds me, 'why did I want to do it way back when?'"
• They acknowledge students are on different journeys—some immediately passionate, others just beginning to find their spark.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• [05:06] Cormac on “Brutalist” architect names:
  “What is the most architectural sounding name we can make?”

• [21:18] Cormac on project collaboration:
  "Even a sole practitioner does a group project. If you have engineers, if you have contractors… you're going to be working with someone else…”

• [24:16] Evan (Coffee Boy) on research:
  “I want… to pass a link along to one of my podcast episodes called Design Equity and Data… talking about how data that has even been collected potentially has a bias attached to it.”

• [39:08] Cormac on constraints:
  "I tried to explain to them, 'constraints do not kill creativity.'"

• [43:16 & 43:36] Cormac on teaching:
  “It's kind of exciting to like be around this doe-eyed energy… to see the birth of these people's passion… it kind of reminds me, 'why did I want to do it way back when?'”

• [28:57] Coffee Boy on adaptive reuse:
  “It is extremely challenging. But I would also say, like, super inspiring to see those projects that are successful… It’s also extremely rewarding… not every great architectural project needs to be a new building.”

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:14-06:13: Intro banter, movies and architects in pop culture
• 06:13-12:48: Drawing, creativity, games, and teaching family creativity
• 14:47-26:01: Cormac’s teaching experience, integration of coursework, team structure, and real-world projects
• 26:01-28:48: Group work, data-driven assignments, and value of research (and bias)
• 28:48-34:17: Adaptive reuse, code vs. creativity, balancing constraints
• 34:17-43:16: Client involvement, community engagement, site research, and student learning journeys
• 43:16–End: Reflection on passion for architecture, teaching rewards, and encouragement for future updates

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Tone & Final Thoughts

The tone is collegial, self-deprecating, and filled with the sorts of quick asides and friendly banter that make the process of architecture—and teaching—both challenging and fun. The hosts share their vulnerabilities and hopes, reflecting honestly on the challenges and rewards of mentoring future architects. The genuine passion for both the field and for teaching stands out—as does the invitation for listeners to think more broadly about creativity, learning, and how architects are shaped by both constraints and inspiration.

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For more episodes, information about the hosts, or to join the conversation, visit: archispeakpodcast.com

Transcript

[Cormac]

Don't know who it is.

[Coffee Boy]

Nope, I can't name that tune. Here, I'll start it over. Yeah, y' all just have to tell me.

[Cormac]

It is the song Circles by Dag Nasty.

[Coffee Boy]

Oh, that was on the tip of my. The tip of my tongue.

[Cormac]

Was it now?

[Coffee Boy]

It was right there.

[Cormac]

I. I just watched the documentary again for I don't know how many times I've watched it, but the documentary Salad days about the D.C. punk scene, I haven't seen that.

[Coffee Boy]

I find it odd, though. I find it odd, though, that you have time to, first of all, watch documentaries, but second of all, to watch them multiple times.

[Cormac]

Like, you know, I. It's the music that I listen to. It's the music that I enjoy.

[Coffee Boy]

So it's your favorites? Yeah. Yeah.

[Cormac]

You know, it's funny that there are things that I will watch over and over again, whether they're feature film or. Or even documentary. There's. Yeah, I don't know why. There's just ones that I'm like, you know what? This interests me. And I watch.

[Coffee Boy]

Yeah, nice. I re watched Interstellar the other night.

[Cormac]

I. That's a movie that I watch. I won't speak often, but I. I.

[Coffee Boy]

Speaking of re watching. I mean, yeah, it's rare here, but it does happen.

[Cormac]

It is one that I've rewatched a few times, and, you know, you catch things. Actually, last time I watched it, it was because I was having a conversation with my son about Nolan movies and what I haven't seen, have or have not seen. And I think the only one that I haven't seen in. In a way refused to see is. And I don't even see. Here's the thing. I don't even know the name of it. So there you go.

[Coffee Boy]

It doesn't exist.

[Cormac]

It's the one with, like, the little folding realities and, you know.

[Coffee Boy]

Oh, really?

[Cormac]

Yeah.

[Coffee Boy]

The one with Leo.

[Cormac]

Yes. And that is.

[Coffee Boy]

I mean, I don't even know if we should. I don't know if we should even name it if.

[Cormac]

Yeah, and that is probably why I didn't watch it.

[Coffee Boy]

What are you talking about?

[Cormac]

Dude, Crazy haven't watched.

[Coffee Boy]

Actually has an architect in it. What? What?

[Cormac]

Yeah, I know. Because you know that Hollywood portrays architects perfectly. Like Keanu.

[Coffee Boy]

A movie about that.

[Cormac]

Well, Keanu Reeves as, like, the architect in the lake house. I mean, the only reason I watched that. The only reason I watched that movie was because of the damn house.

[Coffee Boy]

It wasn't that great.

[Cormac]

I mean, the movie wasn't great, but the house was okay. I mean, it Was a good setting. Yeah, I liked. I liked the setting and everything. It was just. It was more of me living my dream of being an architect and having a lake house.

[Coffee Boy]

Okay. So speaking of. Okay, speaking of movies and architects, have you seen. Have you seen what's coming early next year?

[Cormac]

Yes. If you were talking about.

[Coffee Boy]

This is a test.

[Cormac]

The Brute. The brutalist movie.

[Coffee Boy]

Yes, the Brutalist. We're going to have to have a special review episode about.

[Cormac]

We should have like a showing and do that. Actually, my son.

[Coffee Boy]

We should rent a theater.

[Cormac]

That would actually be awesome to be.

[Coffee Boy]

Like, okay, audience, let us know, like, how many of you would actually show up to a screening knowing. Just knowing that you would have to travel. Like, we would all have to travel to all see it together to do it. Right. We. Like, like, what would it take? How many people do you think we would need to pull this off? We would need a couple hundred people, right, to show up for something like this.

[Cormac]

Hold on. I'm looking up when it comes out.

[Coffee Boy]

Yeah, I wanted. I thought I saw January or something, but I could be wrong. I did see the number 2025.

[Cormac]

It actually says that. According to this. It says initial release September 1st this year. What?

[Coffee Boy]

All right, maybe. Maybe I'm way off.

[Cormac]

The Brutalist.

[Coffee Boy]

Yes, the Brutalist with Adrian Brody.

[Cormac]

Yes. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. Actually.

[Coffee Boy]

Well, if it's September 1st, we. We missed it. I think that was just the. I think that was.

[Cormac]

Well, that was the. Yeah, it was the festival premiere, probably. The festival. Adrian Brody has Laszlo Tol.

[Coffee Boy]

Yes.

[Cormac]

Which makes it sound like he's a brutalist. What is the most architectural sounding name we can make?

[Coffee Boy]

Right? Totally.

[Cormac]

Actually, my. My. My son, who is studying the. Studying for film studies, he told me about it because, be quite honest with you, I didn't know it was occurring. And then up until. I think it was last night, actually, he told me about it. He's like. He's like, hey, did you see that. That the movie the Brood List is coming out? Like, no. I was like, is it documentary? They're like, no, no, no. Adrien Brody like, oh, interesting. I was like, who's he portraying? He's like, oh, it's a fictional character. I'm like, it's probably an amalgamation of like, Paul Rudolph and other.

[Coffee Boy]

And others. Yeah.

[Cormac]

And others.

[Coffee Boy]

Right.

[Cormac]

Do you maybe.

[Coffee Boy]

Maybe a little bit of Pereira. Yeah. Who knows? Who knows who there? Who's going to be in what characters have come together to make this fictional protagonist.

[Cormac]

It's interesting that some of the architects. Brutalist architects that you would think otherwise. Like the first thing that comes to my mind when you. We think of like Ero Saratonin, you don't think of brutalism. Not in the, I guess, traditional sense. But what do you mean by that?

[Coffee Boy]

I think you're gonna have to get more specific. I don't know what the. With your generalities here. Well, anyway, just because someone uses concrete doesn't mean.

[Cormac]

No, except for look up the Milwaukee War Memorial that Saarinen did. And if you tell me that that is not a brutalist building, then.

[Coffee Boy]

Well, not to say that they can't do it, but also you wouldn't categorize Saarinen as a brutalist either.

[Cormac]

Exactly. In a way. I don't necessarily think that that like say Khan is either, but there are Khan buildings that are brutalist buildings. So yeah, I don't. We just totally just drove right off the cliff.

[Coffee Boy]

Well, not only that, but we might HEAR Something from Mr. Brutalism.

[Cormac]

I was about to say there is somebody who might correct us on all of this.

[Coffee Boy]

See if Josh listens. Who knows?

[Cormac]

You gave away a secret identity.

[Coffee Boy]

I did. I did. Mr. Mr. Josh Mings of Aggregate Architecture or whatever. I know it's Aggregate. Maybe it's Aggregate Studio. I can't remember the. Of his. Of his firm, but I'm actually doing.

[Cormac]

Well forward to next visit to Chicago. I want to try to meet up with him and visit his office because.

[Coffee Boy]

New office. Yeah.

[Cormac]

Do you know where it's at?

[Coffee Boy]

I don't know the name of the building, but I know we did see it.

[Cormac]

It is.

[Coffee Boy]

It's right on the river, right?

[Cormac]

It is. No, no, it is architecturally significant building.

[Coffee Boy]

Okay.

[Cormac]

It is the one.

[Coffee Boy]

The river.

[Cormac]

It is the Monognoc.

[Coffee Boy]

Yeah. Isn't that on the river?

[Cormac]

Yeah.

[Coffee Boy]

Okay, you wrong. Okay. Yeah, totally. I'm probably wrong about all of the brutalism. It's not the thing that I. That I study. So we probably actually, I mean. No, we don't need to go down this road. I was gonna say we probably need to define it because everybody gets the definition. They think one thing, but it's something else.

[Cormac]

Okay, let me bring it back real quickly before we probably change subjects again to architectural portrayal in movies. And what was your most favorite portrayal of an architect in a movie?

[Coffee Boy]

I don't know if I have one.

[Cormac]

And not a documentary because then I would say, right, he was pretty good in that movie. It was like he.

[Coffee Boy]

Played by self. I don't know the answer to that. The first thing that comes to mind is in the Matrix is The Architect. So not in the first Matrix. I don't remember if it was the second or the third film that came out, but that's when we actually met the architect of the Matrix.

[Cormac]

And we're going with that. I mean, isn't that like. Is it that one of those computer programming architects? Come on, man. We try to. Hold on.

[Coffee Boy]

Oh, hey, hey, hey, Cormac. Okay, what I meant to say was, was I was in the Nolan film Inception again. Yes, I know. An actual architect in that movie. Yeah.

[Cormac]

I would say Michael J. Fox. The Frighteners.

[Coffee Boy]

This. I haven't heard of this.

[Cormac]

Oh, my Lord.

[Coffee Boy]

So it's good or bad or good? Oh, no, actually good.

[Cormac]

So he plays an architect that is not a practicing architect anymore because of things that happen in the movie. And it's kind of a. It's actually a really decent horror flick.

[Coffee Boy]

Oh, well, you lost me there. That's why I haven't seen it. I can't imagine Michael J. Fox in a horror movie.

[Cormac]

I mean, it's. I. I think it's a PG13 horror flick, but, you know.

[Coffee Boy]

Yeah.

[Cormac]

Which.

[Coffee Boy]

All right, I'm gonna have to dig up a link for that for the show notes because everybody's got to watch it.

[Cormac]

Now. I'm gonna have to put. I'm gonna have to make a note here. Hold on.

[Coffee Boy]

You have to make a note. Make a note in your note in your field notes notebook with your ballpoint pen here, hold on. Okay, hold on.

[Cormac]

My notes.

[Coffee Boy]

See, the latest, the latest, the latest.

[Cormac]

There we go.

[Coffee Boy]

Phelan, sketch my. My.

[Cormac]

My meeting notes today. Including a. Whatever it is.

[Coffee Boy]

Yeah. What are the. What do you call those?

[Cormac]

I don't know.

[Coffee Boy]

I mean, it's not really a rag doll like that.

[Cormac]

You have a series.

[Coffee Boy]

But.

[Cormac]

But what is this? This is like something decaying. Creepy. Rag doll creepy. It's kind of a merging of like my rag dolls and my.

[Coffee Boy]

Oh, there you go.

[Cormac]

I think I had this conversation with you before that there's a time where I was posting. I. I had that whole series of the post it. The 15 minute sketches, the post it notes that I did one every day for a year. And then I was just posting random other things. And then when my vision needing glasses started to go, I for some reason stopped. I mean, because I draw so fine detailed that I just stopped drawing to the point where.

[Coffee Boy]

Because you couldn't see the fine details, I. That actually might be kind of an interesting evolution in your drawings if you just continue to do it without the glasses and see what happens.

[Cormac]

Right. Because that would be actually hilarious to actually see. What if I took my readers off and looked at, or just assumed that I was drawing what I was. Would normally draw and see what. Damn it. Now you're gonna have to make me do that.

[Coffee Boy]

It's like that exercise where you have to close your eyes and do the drawing right where you. And you don't lift your. There's a name for this that is escaping me.

[Cormac]

Yeah. Or, or like the gesture sketches where, you know, you like again, don't you?

[Coffee Boy]

Make a mark.

[Cormac]

Exactly.

[Coffee Boy]

That's it. Make a mark. With a good dinner table activity. Make a mark and then pass it around. And by the end of dinner, you got a pretty interesting drawing.

[Cormac]

I don't think we've ever done that. That's kind of cool, too.

[Coffee Boy]

Yeah, it's kind of fun.

[Cormac]

Have you done that? That's kind of cool.

[Coffee Boy]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. You know, the other thing that my, My youngest, who also draws with very fine detail, like you.

[Cormac]

Gee, I think I can guess what he draws.

[Coffee Boy]

Turns everything into a Godzilla. The, the, the. The exercise that I was going to bring up that he likes to do is he likes to pit my wife and I against each other to draw an object. And he picks the object and then he's like, okay, you guys both have to draw it. And he'll play along too, but he gets to pick what the object is. And so it's like a bicycle or a camera or a tree or a building or whatever. And so we'll draw. We'll each draw something. And it's interesting, actually, when you're drawing just, you know, it's a one, it's a noun. Right. You're going to draw this noun and the different perspectives that come out. So some things are in 3D, some things are in 2D, some things are really simple. Some things are more detailed.

[Cormac]

And we were.

[Coffee Boy]

I usually. I usually win. I'll just say that I don't know.

[Cormac]

If your family does board games or anything, but we were just in the store looking at the board games, and I was standing next to my daughter, and I was just like, we haven't played Pictionary in a long time. We should do that. And she's like, no, because it was never really any fun. Because whoever gets you on their team wins.

[Coffee Boy]

Because you could draw all the things.

[Cormac]

Yeah, it's a bicycle. Yeah.

[Coffee Boy]

Ormic, how does your team always win, though, when, like, the ink is always smeared?

[Cormac]

No, no, I draw it upside down.

[Coffee Boy]

That's right. You are the king.

[Cormac]

I am the King of drawing.

[Coffee Boy]

You could draw in reverse, upside down, in reverse.

[Cormac]

I. I did that just the other day.

[Coffee Boy]

And your brain is so screwed up to be able to do that.

[Cormac]

You just, you could have just stopped at. Your brain is just so screwed up and then called it a day.

[Coffee Boy]

Right? There you go.

[Cormac]

Yeah.

[Coffee Boy]

Yeah. Oh my gosh. Well, tell me about your latest adventures in teaching. Like, let's talk about how the. Is it semesters or quarters that you're doing?

[Cormac]

It's semesters.

[Coffee Boy]

How's your first semester going?

[Cormac]

So first semester, actually it's going really well. First of all, let me just kind of give a little shout out to the students who aren't listening to this because I don't even know if they know why would they do this?

[Coffee Boy]

But what you haven't you. We need more listeners.

[Cormac]

Although, although I had joked a few times about. So if they kind of like went and did some hunting down, they would probably find.

[Coffee Boy]

Oh yeah, just Google you.

[Cormac]

Yeah, well, no, because I, I had met. Mentioned a few times because I'm co teaching with a friend of the show and a fellow podcaster who still has yet to earn a name except for Coffee Boy.

[Coffee Boy]

He.

[Cormac]

Anyway, I was joking about like our competing podcast and they're like, you have podcasts too? I'm like, yeah, I've been doing one for about 12 years and. And then I just kind of like left it.

[Coffee Boy]

It's actually no competition.

[Cormac]

Well, that's true. You know, please, seriously.

[Coffee Boy]

I mean, smack talk commences.

[Cormac]

Yeah, but so we co teach together with someone else. And it's really interesting because. And I'll kind of explain a little bit about the project and everything. And so they do studios called, they basically they give an ID1, ID2, ID3, and I'm teaching ID5 and ID5 is Integrated Design Level 5. And what they basically do, because they have a series of labs and other classes like structures, Woodcomp or would have all of these other different types of classes, they actually integrate them into the studio as well. And so if you're learning structures, you're going to be doing things that also integrate structures into your project. Urban design and so on and so forth. And so at ID5 they've got a whole bag of tricks of things that they are sort of required to actually do. And they've got a great program. The actual syllabus was a really good program and it was an international center located in Flint, Michigan. And it is an actual site. Well, it's an actual client that has been eyeing a specific site. And if Everything goes well in their actual world becomes this. But we get to use their program, we get to use the site. So now they have to employ things like understanding what adaptive reuse is and all of these other things. And one of the things that they had, they used to do up until mouthy boy decided to join the teaching staff and say, hey, would it be great if we do this or this? That completely changes everything that you guys have been doing in the past. I'm down, Mouthy Boy, and I kind of hope that they don't take any offense to it or feel like it's. I've contributed a little bit to the. This whole process, but I was just like, well, why don't we break up the team?

[Coffee Boy]

Who's the new guy? They're like looking around, who's the new guy here?

[Cormac]

Exactly as we affectionately refer to them as the FNG in the Army. And I'm going to let anybody figure out what that stand. That acronym stands for Hard. It's not hard, but still, that's not a.

[Coffee Boy]

That's not a hard riddle.

[Cormac]

Exactly. So. So, you know, we were talking about it. It's like, well, break up each of the teams and assign them these assignments that you already have pre thought about, like doing, but assign everything, because then. So they'll do. They have four assignments, essentially. They have assignment one, which is a precedent study, which is there are a variety of different program types within this building. And so what their mission is to kind of look at a precedence that reflects that program type. Or maybe the. Like, we have them looking up like grassroots architecture and what that is, because this is a nonprofit organization that will have to be doing some pretty creative things with. And so they looked up precedence of like, other program. Like other programs that use grassroots architecture for funding and construction and all that other stuff. So. So that's one. It's like one assignment. They broke up the group of 40 students into six different groups. And then. Then there was the assignment two, which is more like analytics, looking at things like the economy of the demographics of Flint or code building code and things like that. So there's a variety of different things.

[Coffee Boy]

When you say Flint, I just want the listeners to understand that you're located in. In Michigan.

[Cormac]

Yes, yes. The school.

[Coffee Boy]

That's the site of the building, I think. And you're holding up a shirt with the ltu. I'm pretty sure you got the name of the school wrong.

[Cormac]

I did get this and actually got a text from coffee Boy correcting me.

[Coffee Boy]

I'm pretty sure that's a good idea to know who's employing you?

[Cormac]

My wife.

[Coffee Boy]

It was just a version of a word, that's all.

[Cormac]

My wife. She's employing me.

[Coffee Boy]

Yeah, yeah. Good to know her name.

[Cormac]

Exactly.

[Coffee Boy]

That's the only name you need to know, actually.

[Cormac]

Exactly.

[Coffee Boy]

Okay. And sorry, I, I, I derailed.

[Cormac]

That's totally, that's totally fine. So the, so my contribution was suggesting that we kind of break up the teams in a way that essentially the next steps are, is that they're going to start doing building programming and building design and things like that. But if you take a person from each of these teams and then reshuffle the teams for the design progress and so each team will then have a subject matter expert from these other teams.

[Coffee Boy]

Hopefully it will be.

[Cormac]

Well, I mean I, looking at the work that they just did. So we did a mid, mid semester review.

[Coffee Boy]

So we've all done group projects, Cormac. And not that every professional project isn't one, but in school.

[Cormac]

Well yeah, but in practice we do it all the time. I mean every time our group, even if like I try to tell them, I'm like, even a sole practitioner does a group project. Because if you have engineers, if you have contractors, if you have all of these other things going to be working with someone else and so kind of.

[Coffee Boy]

Who doesn't pull their weight.

[Cormac]

Wow. All right.

[Coffee Boy]

Then that was, that was always my experience.

[Cormac]

Yeah. So, and so then they were also like, well, we typically also assign a model. And I'm like, okay, well what is the model usually for? They're like, well, we, sometimes we do this or sometimes we do that. I'm like, well, what if this model be something more like what they can do with that is applicable to both the coming project and also the research projects that they're doing now. And a lot of them are basically, you know, looking since the, their second assignment is to basically look at like all these different, like data points and analytics and things like that and transportation, yada yada, all these different things. In the city of Flint, why don't we use a snapshot of downtown Flint and access to downtown Flint as both some of the graphics that people will use in their, in their work to assignment, but also as the model and then build a 3D model that they can reference back and forth to as they're talking to it, because they will be talking to this particular client and basically align it with kind of how we use the tools that we create the, whether it's the graphics in the presentation or the models or whatever else. And Stuff. So. Okay, it's basically. This is the long way of saying it's actually going really well because they, all of these kids, they're hair hall, basically about the same age as my two college age kids. And a lot of them are working in firms, which is kind of cool. I'll ask them, although I've asked them on numerous occasions. Hey, do you know anything about the Rural Studio? They're like, what's the real studio? I'm like, get out.

[Coffee Boy]

Like Jed to me. You're dead to me.

[Cormac]

Or I'll ask them. I'm like, hey, if you ever. Has anybody assigned you or have you ever seen powers of 10? No. Get out.

[Coffee Boy]

Get out.

[Cormac]

Come on.

[Coffee Boy]

Well, now you know why you're there. Well, this sounds like a cool project. I like how you're, you're like, well, okay, so first of all, I like the idea of. Basically what you're saying is you're showing entire curriculum for the. So it's basically like a syllabus, but it's broken up projects and they get to actually see what's coming. So they know why they're doing this step.

[Cormac]

Exactly.

[Coffee Boy]

To the next step. Because at least the next step. Absolutely. And, and this idea of kind of data collection and like demo, I assume it's like demographics and like you said, traffic and I'm sure it's like utilities, the whole thing. I want to give an assignment. Can I give an assignment? I mean, you can choose to accept this or not, but I'm give you an assignment. I, I want, I would love it if, if you would pass a link along to one of my podcast episodes called Design Equity and Data. And it's TroXel podcast number 73 and that one, it was a panel discussion that I, that I led. And so I'm not the expert. I just asked the questions. It was. There was a guy from Perkins and Will in the urban planning department. There were, there was three or four people on the panel, each coming from a different place in practice, but talking about how data that has even been collected potentially has a bias attached to it. Right. And so they talked about ways in which you can overcome that when you are doing data analysis and study for a project to truly to really try to fully understand what you're getting into. Right. And not just going off because I think there's a lot of times where it's like we did research and I'm using my podcast air quotes, which means I look stuff up on Google. Okay. By the way, that's not research. Right. And so it's like it's actually pulling data from legitimate data sources. But even legitimate data sources have inherent bias built into them because it was just in how they collected the data or the kind of data that they collected, things like that. But I thought it was really a great conversation around that. So that it's not just like, well, you can't just use the excuse of, well, that was the data I was given. Because then you're not truly representing potentially the client who's actually going to be using the building when you're using this information to inform that design early on.

[Cormac]

So that's interesting that you say that. We had our mid, mid quarter review, basically.

[Coffee Boy]

Okay, we've half of a half.

[Cormac]

Yeah, so. So let me explain what that was.

[Coffee Boy]

It's basically called a quarter. Yeah, they all mid quarter review.

[Cormac]

Quarter review.

[Coffee Boy]

Quarter, mid review. Yeah, I don't know.

[Cormac]

So. So what we basically did is they had presented where they're at to this point. And normally in the past what they've done is they hadn't given all of the assignments out. They would only give one assignment out and they would basically surprise you with whatever was next. Well, and that would be, that would be done at this presentation. And one of the interesting things is that they're looking at all because they sort of know where they're going with the next two assignments after this and they're weaving together both. Okay, I looked at a building type or a project delivery type, like say with the, the grassroots architecture. But let's just say that, okay, we as in the group that did adaptive reuse, we looked at this and then we also looked at code building codes, accessibility codes and things like that. That was their project number two. That was what they had to present on. And one of the interesting things about that was, is that they took it upon themselves. Little bit of prodding from us, but overall it was kind of led by, by them, was that they looked at their first precedence of an adaptive reuse building and then looked at how the code looks at adaptive reuse and what are the things that you need to do and know from a code aspect for an adaptive reuse building. And I thought it was great. And so they were weaving these together to see that as like, okay, I know what my endpoint is. I've got a project that's we're going to be working on an adaptive reuse project. And so I'm doing this precedent study of what are other. What does it mean to basically do an adaptive reuse project? What are some of the challenges, design challenges and design opportunities that these people of the particular precedent study that we looked at had had employed in their project. And then, okay, understanding that they had some challenges, probably a lot of those challenges came from either the code or whatever. And so understanding, since we're looking at code too, understanding code and understanding, like, what it is that we are going to be challenged to. So they basically weaved it all together really well. So it's a story that can continue to be told all the way into their next project. And I keep hitting my mic.

[Coffee Boy]

Stop it. This was one. That's a podcast. Rookie mistake right there.

[Cormac]

No, it's somebody who talks with their hands.

[Coffee Boy]

So this reminds me of the last Monterey design conference and all of the adaptive reuse projects that were shown. It was absolutely incredible. And when you think about the challenges that do show up in adaptive reuse projects, when it comes to structural and mechanical and I mean, you're taking the bones of something and you're trying to inject modern systems into that and entirely different use cases and all of that stuff, it is extremely challenging. But I would also say, like, super inspiring to see those projects that are successful. And it's also extremely rewarding, too, to see that not every great architectural project needs to be a new building.

[Cormac]

Yeah. Well, as somebody who I don't know if it specializes in, but it seems like it because I've been doing a lot of them doing adaptive reuse projects. I find the whole thing this exciting challenge. It's like, okay, I've got. I don't have the tablorasa or table Rosa, however you pronounce it. I don't have that blank slate. I.

[Coffee Boy]

You don't have the, the blank slate or you don't have the rose slate?

[Cormac]

Exactly.

[Coffee Boy]

Rose colored glasses, maybe?

[Cormac]

Exactly. And so I have to figure out the most creative way to do this. And. And so when I was talking to them about it, it was just like, some, like, you've got to think about, because they were like, well, it was interesting is because having a conversation or a debate about how the students should progress with their work between the, the instructors was also kind of fun too, because here you are talking about, like the three of us are sitting here talking about. He's like, well, I think that they should do something a little bit more specific to their project. I'm like. And then I interject, I'm like, well, I don't really necessarily think so. Because I was like, I. I kind of swayed them away from doing that. And the reason I did is because One.

[Coffee Boy]

One professor undoes what the other one just did over and over.

[Cormac]

But the. Well, the good thing is that we have. We're having this open conversation between us with the students so that we can discuss, okay, what is the right direction? And they've got. They've got another three weeks to kind of wrap up these. These two projects. And looking at everything that they did, they actually got a lot of work that they did.

[Coffee Boy]

And I could assume as the. Basically the adults that they are, they could also choose to ignore you.

[Cormac]

Yeah, well, so. So the way that I framed it. The way that I framed it on why I prefer them not to get too specific with it, is that there are. They're going to get a program and they're going to assess the program and there's. They're going to interpret how that program is implemented. Some people may say, okay, I looked at all of the, like, all of the data that we collected about downtown Flint in areas that are essentially going to help support this building, whether it's a restaurant or government facilities or third spaces or whatever, they're going to be there. They looked at all of this, and then you sort of see it's like, okay, some of these other support functions around the town, they want to put them in this building. I want them to kind of assess. Is that the right thing to do? Is this very much.

[Coffee Boy]

Yeah. Fabric of the.

[Cormac]

Yeah.

[Coffee Boy]

The project doesn't. Doesn't necessarily stop at the property line, kind of.

[Cormac]

Well, I was going to say, if the building itself is asking for food services, but there is a lot of food services around. This is the conversation, you know, this is the conversation that we have with our clients, especially when we're doing kind of like nonprofit work or community work like this. It's just like, what assets do you have within the community that support your building, that maybe you don't need those programs within your building. You can utilize that space to do something else. One of your other. Like they'll have this laundry list of all of these different programs, types that they want. Maybe they might have to sacrifice one thing for another to try to jam everything in there.

[Coffee Boy]

Maybe. Yeah, just maybe.

[Cormac]

Yeah. And see. Exactly. And so maybe the conversation is that, okay, we looked at, we. As we assess this based off of the data that we had, we looked at not utilizing this particular program because it's supported here, here, here and here.

[Coffee Boy]

Yeah. If you can make a justification that. Sure.

[Cormac]

So what that means is, for the code, they're now going to have a different type of program that's Going to go in there. And so let's say for instance they do. Oh well we were just looking at a multi purpose space that was less than 50 people. Well, that's one code implication. So now because they are getting rid of a program, maybe they want to do that is now an assembly space of 100 people. Well that's a completely different. That is a different code implication and what it means both by code and structure and everything else. And so that's why I was like, I don't really want them to get too specific on the program because they may choose a completely different program. And what I would love to see, I want to see how they, by understanding the code, how they then use the code in their specific program.

[Coffee Boy]

Yeah.

[Cormac]

And so that's why I didn't really want to get too deep into like getting specific on the code.

[Coffee Boy]

So who's acting as the client here? Is it. Is it you, the professor?

[Cormac]

Oh no, no. There's an actual. So, so our, our Nameless Fent. He actually, because he's a practicing architect in the city of Flint, he knows a lot of people and he actually knows the director of the International center of Greater Flint. And so they are. They have been looking for a space for them to have a home for a lot of all of these support services for immigrant and refugee community within the Greater Flint area to go for a variety of different services that they offer. And so he agreed because the relationship between our friend. Yeah, I almost said his name, so I paused. Our friend and the director of the center, he agreed to basically be the client for us. And so we actually meet with each.

[Coffee Boy]

One of the groups. So we just kind of conversations about that kind of thing.

[Cormac]

So the first step was, is we had. So we've got a couple of different steps. We've got. We will have another round of community engagement for, for very specific things. We did meet with the director as a whole for the entire group and they basically he gave a presentation about what the International center is and what the goals of the International center are and kind of like the future aspirations of the 10, 15, 20 years from now kind of aspirations. And let them ask as many questions as they can. Let's talk about them very specifically. Like what do you want your building to be or what kind of programs do you want? Or can you explain a little bit more about like this particular aspect or that particular aspect of your mission? So it was a really good conversation that they got to engage the client. I mean they should have asked a lot more questions. I kind of like jumped in there and like hid behind somebody and raised my hand and said, I'd like to ask a question.

[Coffee Boy]

Why are you Gumby or Pokey? Well, no, it was just like which voice was that?

[Cormac]

I wanted, I wanted a. A 20 something, a young 20 something college student. Isn't that what you sounded like? Hi, Professor, I'm Evan.

[Coffee Boy]

Voice, voice cracking and all.

[Cormac]

Yeah, I'll hit puberty someday. But, but so, so it was so they had, they had some good questions and then they walked the site and then they asked questions and then they walked like around the area taking a look at things kind of based off of what their research had to be. Anyway. Some of their like work to research was, you know, the kind of the data collecting stuff. And so a lot of them kind of walked around and just looked at like access and how do you get to downtown and are there buses running? Those kind of things. So there was. They did a lot of like, kind of like practical on the ground kind of. Which is absolutely. What we should always do is go and actually survey the site.

[Coffee Boy]

Google Maps, I think you mean. Google Maps.

[Cormac]

I would say.

[Coffee Boy]

I laugh.

[Cormac]

Remember when I told the story about having to write a precedent study and then I decided to like take my long weekend and hop in the car and drive to that precedent study so I could see it and like really talk about it? Google. If, if Google Earth and Google Maps existed and Street View existed back then, yeah. I wouldn't have made that drive. Yeah, maybe I probably would have.

[Coffee Boy]

But how valuable your time actually is exactly? Well, it's hard to, hard to actually say that because not to say that what you would have, that it wasn't valuable what you did.

[Cormac]

But yeah, I mean, I got an A on it, you know, so there you go. But.

[Coffee Boy]

Well, this sounds like a cool project. I'm actually interested now in seeing the results of and the creative ideas that come out of it. I think one of the things that is hard in this kind of a. It sounds like I'm just, I'm projecting now in this kind of a scenario because you guys have built so many kind of real world constraints into the project, right?

[Cormac]

Yeah.

[Coffee Boy]

You have a real client, you've got a real site, you've got a real program, you've got the code, you've got all of these things that you're actually looking at. You're gonna have data that you're gonna make decisions with based on all of the actual things that go on around that site. Okay. And yet, like, how can, yeah, how can you Blow my mind with a project.

[Cormac]

Right.

[Coffee Boy]

I was, that's gonna be an interesting thing.

[Cormac]

I tried to explain him. I'm like, constraints do not kill creativity.

[Coffee Boy]

Yeah.

[Cormac]

In fact, I mean, in a way, what's fun is the challenge of how you can beat what you kind of assume is like the code minimum kind of building.

[Coffee Boy]

Yeah, for sure.

[Cormac]

Right.

[Coffee Boy]

That, that is what architecture in the real world actually is. I, I, but what I, I guess where I'm even going with that is a little bit farther out, which is like the dreams, like the big, yeah, the, the moonshot kind of ideas, the big dreams that you see in school projects. Right. That you actually almost only get to see in school projects or competitions or whatever. Where, where it's, where there's, it is a little bit disengaged from reality. But I, I'm just interested to see, like, how big the ideas can actually be.

[Cormac]

Interesting.

[Coffee Boy]

You're talking about adaptive reuse case studies, and I've seen some incredible. Oh, yeah, absolutely. So it's totally possible. Right. I mean, I just, I just, I'm really intrigued to see what comes out and see.

[Cormac]

So, you know, and actually I gave them a handout that, interestingly enough, Bluebeam had published a just a little small paper that they did on adaptive reuse, and it was filled with a bunch of data on what, what the future holds for adaptive reuse. And in fact, actually, the future holds a lot for adaptive reuse, especially this big, huge push towards sustainability. And what does that mean with recycling buildings? And, and so plus, you know, my, like, always, like, saving kind of like the architectural heritage of a town like that, that kind of cultural identity that was created, if it has one. And, and so it's, they've done. I've sat through a few studios in the past before I was hired on, and they did a lot of, like, adaptive reuse projects. And it was really interesting that the constraints did not kill their creativity. Sure. If you look at them, you're like, yeah, there is no way in the world that's buildable. But that's okay.

[Coffee Boy]

That's also not the point.

[Cormac]

Like, that is not the point at all. The point is how can you work with the existing building and the constraints that all of these other things have and, and still do an exciting, creative, imaginative space. And a lot of them, a lot of them stay very kind of restrained and a lot of them get really, really ambitious and it's really kind of fun to see, like, the variety of different kind of, like, aspects of it.

[Coffee Boy]

So, yeah, when they do the Design part of the project. Are they still working?

[Cormac]

So they will be working in teams. Yeah. Yeah.

[Coffee Boy]

Wow.

[Cormac]

But the good, the interesting thing about that is so when they reshuffle them is there's going to be like I said, there's going to be like one member of each team on that team. And, and I don't know if they're gonna then break it down a little bit more, I'm not sure because that's going to be a challenge because, you know, I mean, hell, think about how like difficult it is to design by committee.

[Coffee Boy]

That's why I said, wow.

[Cormac]

So, so we can get a little bit into that one once we start assigning that because it'll be interesting. So you said you would love to see it.

[Coffee Boy]

Maybe, just maybe I wasn't going to.

[Cormac]

Invite myself but maybe, just maybe because I do know that somebody who could make that decision does listen to this show.

[Coffee Boy]

And I'm not sure that would get a name. A name drop.

[Cormac]

Yeah, that's still not going to get a name drop. However, might be an easy, might be an easy way to fulfill a commitment, you know, is invite you to this.

[Coffee Boy]

Oh, man.

[Cormac]

Yeah.

[Coffee Boy]

Oh, behind the curtain. Sorry. Sorry audience. Well, well, this is fun. Thanks for sharing that and I look forward to future updates on the progress of this product.

[Cormac]

Well, let me just add one last thing. What it has done for me is it's kind of exciting to like be around this doe eyed energy.

[Coffee Boy]

That's why it exists. This is why people want to teach.

[Cormac]

Yeah.

[Coffee Boy]

Because of all the bureaucracy.

[Cormac]

Yeah. It not only like, you know, kind of reinforces what I do and don't know, but it also kind of just like I get to see the birth of like these people's passion into why they, why they want to do this. And like it kind of reminds me, it's like, well, why did I want to do it way back when? And to see everybody else that are kind of excited about it. You can tell that there's a variety of different kind of people who are really, really excited about like doing this as a profession. And then there's like people who are going to be good at doing this profession but maybe don't really have that.

[Coffee Boy]

Same kind of like, maybe they haven't found that spark.

[Cormac]

Exactly, exactly. Yeah. But, but it is, is, it's really fun. It's really fun to see all of them in all of their different kind of like, you know, levels of joy for something that they were going to be doing for the rest of their lives.

[Coffee Boy]

Very cool. Very cool. Great to hear it. Well, yeah. All right. How about. How about we pick this one up when you have more to discuss?

[Cormac]

Absolutely.

[Coffee Boy]

Very cool. All right, man.