#351 - Frank Lloyd Garbage

Summary

Archispeak Episode #351: Frank Lloyd Garbage

Hosts: Evan Troxel & Cormac Phalen
Date: November 11, 2024
Theme: Real-life experiences in architecture, design nerdery, office culture, project updates, and the quirks of architectural conferences.

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Brief Overview

This episode kicks off with a humorous but deeply "architectural nerd" moment: Cormac's unboxing of limited edition Frank Lloyd Wright Blackwing pencils provokes a meditation on the collecting impulse and the legacy of revered figures in architecture (and their branded ephemera). The episode weaves together personal stories about office collaboration, the challenges and joys of adaptive reuse projects, user engagement in design, and field reports from industry conferences. Throughout, the hosts’ camaraderie, banter, and lived experience keep things both insightful and highly relatable for anyone in or adjacent to the world of architecture.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Frank Lloyd Wright Blackwing Pencils & "Architectural Nerdism"

• Unboxing the Pencils: Cormac shares his latest acquisition—Frank Lloyd Wright special edition Blackwing pencils—detailing their design, historic references (Cherokee Red), and cost, sparking self-awareness and jokes about architect-centric consumerism.

  • Memorable exchange:
    • Cormac: “Please leave them alone. Kids. Don’t touch my dang pencils.” (03:52)
    • Evan: “You gotta put them in your safe... your children have to deal with someday.”
    • Cormac: “Be like, chuck that.”
    • Evan: “They will chuck it.”
    • Cormac: “Frank Lloyd garbage.” (04:19)

• Show Title Origins: The phrase “Frank Lloyd garbage” emerges as a joke about the ephemerality of design memorabilia—what’s special to one generation may be tossed by the next.

2. Architecture Office Culture & Team Events

• Collaboration Day Recap: Cormac recounts his trip to Baltimore for a biannual (or “whenever it’s feasible”) all-office collaboration, featuring strategic discussions, retirements, and leadership transitions.

  • Notable quote:
    • Cormac: "There didn’t seem to be a shy voice in the audience... safe environments, actually." (24:16)
  • The importance of an open forum in an ESOP (employee-owned) structure, leading to robust, honest discussion about the firm’s direction.

• Pronunciation Woes: Humorous frustration over coworkers’ persistent mispronunciation of "Cormac," leading to a tale of 10 years’ worth of mistakes. (06:32-09:02)

3. Project Update: Adaptive Reuse at Johns Hopkins (Baltimore)

• Cormac discusses seeing his years-long adaptive reuse project in person, reflecting on the transformation from plans and VR models to real space.

  • Design Realities:
    • Anticipating a tight vestibule, but finding it “a lot bigger than I thought” (12:05).
    • The "gift that keeps on giving": designing generic lab spaces, then reprogramming each as user groups materialize, generating ongoing change orders. (17:53)
    • The peril and pleasure of periodic, not daily, site visits: “I actually love doing CA, but because I’m not... it’s been pretty amazing to actually see it... that detail worked.” (13:52)

• Programming vs. Reality:

  • User groups often describe how they think they work rather than how they actually use space, leading to surprises and design pivots:
    • Evan: "What users think they do and what they actually do are two completely different things." (19:23)
  • Resilience of institutional habits, and the flexibility (and code realities!) required to address evolving user needs.

4. Conference Life: Autodesk University & Field Trip to Geisel Library

• Evan’s Conference Recap:

  • Invited as “podcasting press” to Autodesk University in San Diego, Evan highlights the value of conference “field trips”— notably, a visit to Geisel (Dr. Seuss) Library at UCSD—a brutalist icon by William Pereira.
  • Memorable moment:
    • Evan: “The idea behind this building is... it’s like these hands… holding the books, because it’s a library.” (30:33)

• Brutalist Beauty—Geisel Library:

  • Extensive discussion of the library’s form, materiality, functional quirks, and how its “light for a brutalist” presence is enhanced by the setting and architectural expansions below ground.
  • Banter about hugging concrete and taking photos of architectural details with new iPhone features.
  • Notable perspective:
    • Evan: "It feels very light for a brutalist building." (38:38)
    • Cormac: "Probably one of the lightest feeling brutalist buildings I've ever seen." (38:41)
  • Observations on how 1970s, pre-AutoCAD building practices contrast with today’s tech—this structure was "pure, handcrafted, pure, hand-drawn... slide rules and everything else." (43:40)

5. On User-Modified Spaces & Realism in Design

• Discussion about how office, lab, and classroom users inevitably modify their spaces, sometimes against code or design intentions—a universal truth for architects.
  • Evan: “Once they move in, they change it all.” (22:05)
  • Advice: “If you’re going to get any pictures of this project, do it before the teacher moves in.” (22:08)

6. Emceeing a Strategic Dialog

• Cormac shares his experience co-moderating (with Caitlin Brady of "Architect Ed") a firm strategy session, using podcast skills for live, candid dialogue with leadership. (25:58-26:59)
  • The challenge and rewards of moving from private podcasting to public performance.
  • The enduring surprise that “I didn’t know you had a podcast!” even after 10 years.

7. Comparing Conferences: San Diego vs. Vegas (and Beyond)

• Logistics and feel of moving conferences out of Las Vegas; 2025 venue set for Nashville.

  • Evan: “Vegas definitely knows how to do conferences... muscle memory.” (49:39)
  • Cormac: “There's pros and cons... [other cities] give us opportunity to learn different architectures.” (49:48)

• Conference session critiques: The problem of overreliance on teleprompters, with some keynotes feeling “robotic” and poorly delivered. (51:30-53:09)

8. Personal Anecdotes: Long Projects, Road Trips, and Architectural Mileage

• The saga of a project that started in 2016 and is still going:
  • Cormac: “This is honestly hands down the longest project I’ve ever worked on... some of our younger staff... have yet to experience another project.” (46:52)
• Long cross-state road trips post-conference; missing milestone odometer numbers; playful competition on “States Visited in 2024.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Frank Lloyd Wright Pencils Segment (00:35-04:25)
  • “Frank Lloyd garbage.” – Cormac (04:21)
• On Office Pronunciations & Name Woes (06:26-09:09)
  • “I might regain my name and its correct pronunciation.” – Cormac (07:30)
• On User Engagement
  • “What users think they do and what they actually do are two completely different things.” – Evan (19:23)
  • “Once they move in, they change it all.” – Cormac (22:05)
• On Adaptive Reuse
  • “It is very much an adaptive reuse. The largest our office has done at well over a half a million square feet.” – Cormac (13:00)
• On the Geisel Library
  • “This building remains in this iconic stature... expanded down and out underneath it.” – Evan (31:08)
  • “It feels very light for a brutalist building.” – Evan (38:38)
• On Architectural Conference Life
  • “Vegas definitely knows how to do conferences.” – Evan (49:39)
• On Long Projects
  • “You will never know another building in a world.” – Evan (47:22)
• On Conference Keynotes
  • “It was a little too much robotic reading.” – Evan (52:11)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamps | |-----------------------------------------------------|--------------| | Blackwing Pencils & Frank Lloyd Wright | 00:08-04:31 | | Office Collaboration Day + Pronunciation Woes | 05:29-10:55 | | Project Updates: Adaptive Reuse, Programming | 11:04-17:53 | | User Needs vs. Reality Discussion | 18:01-22:56 | | All-Office Strategy & Emceeing Session | 23:01-26:59 | | Autodesk University, Geisel Library field trip | 27:42-43:41 | | Conference Logistics & Comparing Cities | 47:38-50:32 | | Long Projects & Young Architects' Perspective | 46:52-47:17 | | Road Trips, Odometer Stories, and Travel Homework | 55:25-60:35 |

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Tone & Style

Casual, witty, tangibly nerdy, and self-aware. The hosts blend deep professional insight with irreverent asides about the realities of architectural passion, the humbling surprises of practice, and the endless joys (and headaches) of architecture culture.

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For New Listeners…

This episode is a window into what it’s actually like to live and breathe architecture—quirks, pride, frustrations, inside jokes, and hard-earned wisdom included. If you’re curious about architecture’s daily realities, or if you love the intersection of nerdy details and wandering philosophical conversation, this episode is for you.

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Listen Next Time…

• Architecture as a lifelong journey
• More tales of adaptive reuse, user engagement, and designing for change
• The final verdict on “states visited” in 2024

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Find more at archispeakpodcast.com

“It’s easy… to dump on projects that take a long time. But honestly, it’s been kind of exciting. And maybe because I’m not in the day-to-day CA... but seeing it periodically as it evolves, it’s been pretty amazing.” – Cormac (14:30)

Transcript

[A]

Now, I know there's a couple things that we want to talk about, but I would like to show you something. I want to show you how far I descend into architectural nerdism.

[B]

The descent continues. Okay, Black Wing volumes. Tell me about this. Tell me, tell me what this is. This thing I don't know about is.

[A]

That it is the Frank. Frank Lloyd Wright special edition Black Wing pencils.

[B]

I could. I can hear the pencils. Can you give those a little shake?

[A]

Nice. Nice.

[B]

This is super, super nerdy.

[A]

Who needs nerdy? Who needs this nice special black box?

[B]

For those of you listening, you don't get to see the unboxing happening in front of us at the moment here.

[A]

And then the special Frank Lloyd Wright inspired designs on the side of the pencil.

[B]

What's the name of Frank's red?

[A]

Cherokee Red.

[B]

Thank you. So how come the box isn't Cherokee Red? Jesus.

[A]

Well, because it's.

[B]

Come on, Frank.

[A]

It's Black Wing. That is. There it is. The brand.

[B]

I could see that. That could be confusing for people. Okay.

[A]

But it has the Cherokee Ray Frank Lloyd Wright logo on it.

[B]

I will allow it.

[A]

The special picture and then a nice little story about Frank on one side. And what the pencils, The Frank Lloyd Wright pattern. It's more of like the patterns that you would see on the Clear story of his Usonian houses. If you're familiar with those.

[B]

No, I'm not, but.

[A]

Well, you need to get out more often there, pal.

[B]

Well, that's true. As I write with my Frank Lloyd Wright Acme fountain pen.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

I did refill it. I did refill it. Finally.

[A]

See? Yeah.

[B]

And just so you know, I'm taking analog notes back on the analog and the notebook.

[A]

Right. And just so you know, because the last time I purchased Black Wing pencils, and this is the last of the Black Wing pencils that I purchased.

[B]

Hold that eraser up to the lens. I want to like what this is. This is a super nerdy pencil.

[A]

Yes. Where you take the.

[B]

That's like an artist.

[A]

You take the eraser out and you can extend it or stuff like that. Oh, my God. So these aren't cheap for a box of 12. Just. These aren't the. They're about on par with maybe a box of 60 number two Ticonderogas for a box of 12.

[B]

And how many are in there?

[A]

12.

[B]

Okay, but. So it's a. It's a 5X. It's a 5X.

[A]

But the special Frank Lloyd Wright one. So the reason why I'm bringing this up is Because I had a box of these and told the kids to don't use them. They're. They're my special pencils. Don't use my special pencils.

[B]

Did you catch someone using your special.

[A]

They used all of them. All of them.

[B]

They must be damn good.

[A]

I got. No, they're just like. Well, I couldn't find a way.

[B]

Cormac, the fastest way to give yourself a raise is to cut expenses. I'm just saying.

[A]

You mean kids. I mean expenses.

[B]

Cut them off.

[A]

But this one, this special architecturally nerdy box is. Go ahead and guess.

[B]

How much.

[A]

Yeah, shipping and handling.

[B]

Oh, God, $35.

[A]

Pretty close. Well, $35 plus shipping and handling, so. Yes.

[B]

That's like three bucks a pencil. Four bucks a pencil. Geez. Yeah, so this is because.

[A]

Please leave them alone. Kids. Don't touch my dang pencils.

[B]

You got to put them in your safe. So. So with this box, though, now, like, okay, if you get a box of Ticonderogas, you can literally recycle the box. This box. You're not getting rid of this box now. You're not getting rid of this box. Now you're some keepsake of a box that you. That your children have to deal with someday. He'll be like, experience.

[A]

Be like, chuck that.

[B]

They will chuck it.

[A]

Frank Lloyd garbage.

[B]

Okay, there's the show title.

[A]

And people will have to listen to what that means because.

[B]

Yeah, well, I mean, it's a trigger. It's a. It's. I mean, some people are going to be like, yeah, they're going to listen and be disappointed, and then other people are going to be like, that's blasphemous and.

[A]

Exactly. We're going to sharpen our pitchforks and get our torches and find this Cormac Fallon.

[B]

Canceled.

[A]

So with that odd pronunciation of my name, there's a couple of, like, things that we need to talk about. You and I both been away from our home bases, and so I want to talk about that. But I traveled back to Baltimore for our office collaboration day, which was a great time. Getting to basically have a big office meeting. 2 day office meeting with a lot of different events and talking about strategic plan and business plans and moving forward.

[B]

But oh, my gosh, all the offices come together. Yeah, all.

[A]

All three offices and all of the remote employees all come together.

[B]

Did you get to meet Slade in person?

[A]

So Slade I did not get a chance to meet. And the reason I didn't get a chance to meet Slade is because Slade was getting married. I mean, likely excuse, but Whatever, Right?

[B]

This is architecture.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

All that other stuff comes.

[A]

I was like, has it. Has he not learned yet that family, second, architecture is your bride, right? No, no. Actually, I'm rather excited for him and so we'll get an opportunity to meet him in person. It'll happen.

[B]

It only took us three years to.

[A]

Exactly, exactly. See, so. But, but, my gosh, how many times I heard my name incorrectly pronounced. And then what was this?

[B]

Readers. This is what readers do. They guess. You read a word and you don't know how. It's print. You make up your own and you go with it.

[A]

So my favorite one is we were having. He's never going to listen to this, so I'm just going to go ahead and tell the story. But. So for going on 10 years now, I've worked at Air Saint Gross and we've worked on several projects next to Adam Gross, who is retiring this year and had this fantastic presentation about the history of Air Saint Gross, which I'm going to wax poetic about, like, the need for understanding about, like, architectural history and all of this other stuff a little bit later if I do it all. But I swear, there has not been a single day that he has ever pronounced my name correctly to the point.

[B]

Where it's only 10 years.

[A]

Yeah, it's only 10 years. So I jokingly said. Jokingly said, I'm kind of glad you're retiring because at least I might be able to regain my name and its correct pronunciation. He's like, what? I've been saying it wrong this whole time.

[B]

Nice passive aggressive move right there. That's good.

[A]

Come on now. First of all, it's not Cormac. It's Cormac.

[B]

A lot of people say Cormac.

[A]

Which. Okay, if it's. If it's Cor.

[B]

I mean, Big Mac, Cormac, let's go with it.

[A]

Wow. But. But there's this weird. So when I was in Alabama, I sort of learned to kind of dislike my name a little bit, Cormac and things like that. But here's a Ivy League educated. Well, no, Syracuse educated fellow from Connecticut, and he butchers my name as bad as anyone in Alabama did. It's just. It's Cormac.

[B]

Have you never corrected him before?

[A]

Well, I did, but they're eat. Let me. So how many times do people.

[B]

His name's on the door.

[A]

Yeah. How. How many? Yes, I. I've corrected him on it. Well, this is how I used to. You want to talk about passive aggressive? This is how he used to do it. And he would be talking and they'd say, and Cormac. But it was this weird kind of like slight hesitation between the core and the Mac.

[B]

A little bit of a space.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And I was like, or Mick. And thankfully, all of the. The people that I did it to, they knew my name. But then there's a. A group of my friends who knew my name in the office who would purposely do a Adam Grossism pronunciation of my name.

[B]

They were taking sides, right?

[A]

Oh, yeah. They were just like, hey, Cormac.

[B]

Yeah, I can see this. Pushed a button. This is good. I might start doing this.

[A]

Yeah. Well, guess what? Then I'm going to. I am going to teach you how. How sharp a black wing pencil can actually get.

[B]

You're like really far away from me right now. Right now.

[A]

It's in the mail. Yeah, it's in the.

[B]

You. I'm sure it's. It's in the mail right alongside the still unopened coffee. Haven't opened it yet. I. I did get a text message from Kurt. No, no, longer used to be known as Coffee Boy. Formerly known as Coffee Boy. How was the coffee? I'm like, I'll let you know when I try it.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

It'll be a while. I have at least a year to open that bag.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Okay.

[B]

Well, that's how long it took it to show up, so I'll give you a review.

[A]

A year from now.

[B]

I'll give. Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Wait, how many. How long was our. When was our 300th July of 23. Oh, so well over a year. You have over.

[B]

Yeah, well over a year.

[A]

How long does that. How long does. What's the shelf life on that?

[B]

Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, it's in a. It's in a vacuum sealed bag, so I should be. Okay, let's see if it. Actually, I don't. I doubt it has a date on it. Yeah, it was. It was produced June 12, I assume, of this year.

[A]

So you said that we. We recorded that when. Oh, June 12th.

[B]

July of 23. And this is June 12th, I assume it's 2024.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Who knows? Who knows?

[A]

I was trying to. Trying to, I don't know, rationalize whether.

[B]

Or not the making process, but sure, maybe he's had it since before that recording. Maybe It's June of 2012.

[A]

I think he had it out of spite. Just kept saying, nah, nah, he was hoarding it. Exactly. But.

[B]

Right, but.

[A]

So it was. It was good because I got a chance to do a site visit on my Hopkins downtown Baltimore project, which, you know, looking from afar and people, you.

[B]

Just sent me, like, this liminal space photo, and I'm like, what is that, Hopkins?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I feel pretty good that I just pulled that out of nowhere.

[A]

Exactly. But it is, It's. It's, it's, it's. It's actually looking good. I'm not gonna. There's no shade to throw. It's. It's actually looking really good. The thing about it is, though, there's our entry vestibule.

[B]

But.

[A]

No.

[B]

Total architecture critique right now.

[A]

I don't know if it's a but per se, but. Well, okay, so here's the but. I've been. We've been looking at and talking about certain things about our entry vestibule for quite some time. And I keep looking at it on paper, keep looking at it on paper, and I'm like, God, I hope this doesn't feel like a really small space. But I go to that space, I'm like, wow, this is a lot bigger than I thought it was.

[B]

Like, isn't that how it always is? I mean, you look at these things on freaking 2D screens.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Ever.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And you're like, oh, it's this. It's gonna feel like this. Look, I put a little person in there. I can know.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

When you go there in person, it's like, oh, my God, this is way bigger than I thought.

[A]

Or you're like, oh, it was exactly as small as I thought it was going to be.

[B]

Did you guys. Well, maybe because you're remote, you couldn't do this. But was this the kind of thing that anybody, like, put a VR headset on? Because I feel like that actually does translate scale rather well.

[A]

We did. Well, we did early on, especially for the client to kind of do some walkthroughs and things like that.

[B]

But you guys had a lot of space requirements. Like, the floor to floor was not. Because this was adaptive reuse in some use of that.

[A]

It is very much an adaptive reuse. And in fact, actually we had this conversation while I was there, trying to basically identify that this is the largest adaptive reuse project that our office has done at well over a half a million square feet of space. Lots.

[B]

I think we need to come up with our own version of square feet. And there was this great YouTube channel for a long time called Donut Media that did car. A lot of car stuff. And they. They would. They always said hrsprs instead of horsepower. So maybe we have our version for square feets or something instead of square feet. Which sounds square foots.

[A]

Yeah, square foots.

[B]

That's square footsies. That's a lot of square footsies. Yeah, that's a square foot you adaptive reused.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That's awesome.

[A]

And in the, the, the lobby space, there's this, this donor sponsored art wall that's going in that kind of traverses, kind of like pulls once you get into the lobby space through our very generously sized entry vestibule. And then you turn in, you are kind of like face to face with this really amazing art wall. But the art wall then kind of creeps up the stairs in the lobby and this is these big grand stairs and then it transforms into this like triple height space. It's when I'm now seeing the space transform and I've seen this in renderings a thousand times over the course of at least the past five, six years to see it coming to shape. It's amazing. The shape. I mean the space is actually going to be pretty amazing. It's, it's big, it's grand. It is, yeah. It's. I, it's, it's, it's easy sometimes, especially on projects that take a very long time to sometimes dump on them because of how long it's taking. It's like, oh my gosh, this project's just never gonna end. Honestly, it's, it's been kind of exciting. And maybe it's because I'm not in the day to day ca, which I kind of feel sad about because I actually love doing ca, but because I'm not on the day to day CA and kind of like just seeing it periodically as it evolves, it's been pretty amazing to actually see it like, oh yeah, that detail worked. So that's cool that it's, it's been.

[B]

You guys had like a serious. The right word. I mean, it's like you guys had this scramble. Oh, at the last. Yeah, right. Because it was like an adaptive reuse of an adaptive reuse.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And programming was, was uncertain.

[A]

Programming was interesting. Well, I mean program, program's honestly still going on still to this day. So like one of my main tasks on the project is to reprogram. We've reprogrammed practically every lab space that we had designed as a generic lab space because they just didn't have users at the time. And so that evolved into, hey, we've got users. And they range from mechanical engineering to imaging to mess to brain and pain and all of these other different things. And so they're, they're literally like every floor has a Very specific demand that is different from the other. And when we originally designed them, every single floor was the same. And so we have three wings and each wing has a different person. And so we have to concentrate on issue. Picture this. All of our design changes are being handled through asis. Remember the architectural supplemental instructions, so they're being handled through those. And so we're constantly basically reissuing per floor an ASI that is essentially a new bid package, a new like. And then it has to make of.

[B]

Each floor bidding out separately.

[A]

Well, it still goes to the same in the CM in.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And all of the, the contractors on there have them, but it are, are on the contract. But it's just basically you send it out and they give you their new change order cost. And so it's just this kind of like ongoing thing. It's, it's, it's interesting. It. Honestly, with COVID and everything else, it was sort of one of those necessary evils that that was what we were going to do because they didn't have the users lined up. It would have probably been something that if Covid never happened, might have happened a lot sooner. But it, it is what it is. And so that's where we're at now. And, and what's fun and exciting is it is the gift that keeps on giving.

[B]

Yeah, right. Kind of. Yeah, kind of. But, but I mean, kind of gift.

[A]

This is where I, this is where I enjoy, thrive and have fun. Sitting down with the users and really kind of just picking their brains is what do you do and what do you do with this space and how can we envision this space for you?

[B]

It's interesting. I had a conversation earlier today with, I don't know if you know, Matt Crissle. He's at Perkins and Will. He used to be at Kieran Timberlake. He teaches at Carnegie Mellon in the architecture department. One seminar a year. Super smart guy. Got to meet him for a few minutes at the last AIA convention in D.C. that we were at and recorded a podcast episode today about his course that he's teaching. And it's about kind of designing a architectural practice. So coming at it from a different angle.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But he talked about, he's a principal at Perkins and Will and leading their Philadelphia studio. And he talked about how a lot of times when as an architect, you're interviewing a user group or a particular person about something, they have this kind of version of what they think they do. And he's very much like, show me, like, let's go to your space. And show me. Which isn't always possible, granted. Right, right. But it's like he says a lot of times, what users think they do and what they actually do are two completely different things.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

And you kind of need to see both because, I mean, and I didn't get a chance to bring this up with him, but I've experienced this myself, which is what their vision of how they want to work is usually a complete reaction to how they work now. And it's usually the opposite. It's like, I don't have this. I want all of that. I can't do it this way. I want to do it exactly the opposite way. Because they really have spent so much time in their current space and they really know the constraints and they really know the limitations and they want to, they want to do better, they want to do more, they want to do things differently. But it is so black and white. Like, it is so different than what they have now. And it's like really like. Because then is the next time that they do it going to be a complete reversal right back down to where they were.

[A]

So we've had those conversations with a few folks where we've gone into their space and we've seen the way that they work and honestly, somewhat aghast, slightly appalled at like the conditions that they have and that they're working because. And because that's just long to modernize anything. Yeah. And that's just what they. So when we, when we're talking about this, it's like, oh, well, we, I don't really know what we'll do with all of this space. Or they'll be like, hey, I, you're, you're showing me the single person office and we, we want to try to fit like three, four or five people in there. And you're like, what's not that big? Right? I mean, we can't fit that many people in. This is like, oh, well, we do it now, so why can't we do it here? That, that is. No, no, no. That is totally a question that I actually will bring up with them is like, well, and then have to have the conversation with them about what code allows and what code doesn't allow. And not really specifically saying, oh, by the way, your, your space in the way that you've set it up does not meet code one iota. Yeah, but. Right, but there have been a few that have been kind of do what.

[B]

They can with what they have. Right. I mean, and they. Yeah, there's. Yeah, they're not Consulting the building code. Let's just say that.

[A]

Exactly. They. They're consulting their needs and what, what their needs are. The good thing is, is that there's a little bit of flexibility in this space for them in certain areas, for them to grow in other areas. We've also learned that no matter how much planning that you do ahead of time and how much time you spend talking to them about how they will be using the space that they're about to move into, once they move into it, they change it all.

[B]

Oh, right.

[A]

Maybe we should do here, maybe in.

[B]

The teacher's classroom in K12 school.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh. When we used to do that. And I'm sure you did the same thing as. It's like, if you're going to get any pictures of this project, do it before the teacher moves in.

[B]

Photograph it before you move in.

[A]

Yes, exactly.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Or be married to a teacher that was working on a project. And then we set her room up, specifically we, as in the firm, set her room up for her so that we could take photographs of it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And then of course, later on she changed it. But at least the soul of what we did, what we envisioned the room to be, was semi. Semi there for about.

[B]

She felt some obligation to you. Maybe.

[A]

Probably. I don't. I doubt it. I doubt it.

[B]

So this all for meeting. Is there anything else that happened there that was cool?

[A]

Yeah. I mean, we talked about leadership change, we talked about retirements. There's. There's a lot of. In. This is the third. What we. This is called a collaboration day. And so this was the third collaboration day since I've been there. Covet kind of got in the way of some of them.

[B]

And then 10 years, three collaboration days.

[A]

That's not. Well, no, no, no. We don't do. We don't. They're not yearly. It's not a yearly thing.

[B]

Yeah. It is weird though, right? Like when you have multiple offices, like they just operate independently.

[A]

Yes. Yeah.

[B]

It's hard to get everybody together.

[A]

Exactly. And. And pricey.

[B]

Oh yeah, yeah, for sure.

[A]

So. So that's why we only. We. We typically do them one every three years. What's interesting is just the fact of having a conversation kind of re. Solidifying that. Yes, there's a lot of change happening, but then there's a lot that we see is here we're going to hold this steadfast and other areas where we recognize that we need to grow as a firm and change as a firm and to have those open conversations, those open dialogues. I mean, there didn't seem to be a shy voice in the audience.

[B]

And why was that? Why do you think that? Is it because opinions are strong?

[A]

Opinions are strong, safe environments, actually.

[B]

Voice your concerns?

[A]

Yes, all of the above. We're. We're an esop, and people are. We're all owners. And so people want to know, you know, what are we doing with our firm? What are you doing with my firm? Kind of thing. And I was. It was glad to see that people weren't shy and weren't quiet. You'll get a kick out of this. And so a few days prior to me flying into to Baltimore to do this, they reached out and they asked me and a fellow podcaster that she has her own show. They were like, hey, we're going to be talking about the strategic plan with the leadership, the new president, the current president, and the new president of the company. We're going to be talking about the future and all this other stuff. Would you guys be interested in kind of emceeing this discussion and having it more kind of like what we're doing right now, having it to be a little bit more discussion, having it open and comfortable, being able to, like, have these questions that not only we ask, but also everybody that is in the audience to ask and stuff. And so it was kind of. It was kind of fun because I sort of operated a little bit of ARCA speak on the stage. And Caitlin Brady, who. Who operates Architect Ed, who. Another great podcast. If you guys haven't heard it, go check it out. But plug. Yeah. Sweet, sweet little slide of a plug in there. So. But she, she. We were kind of like bouncing back and forth, and it was kind of funny. That was like, as we were asking questions, it. It felt kind of natural. She's just kind of like, glance over at me. It's like, all right, you take the next one, or do you got anything? Or in vice versa. It was just like, hey, you guys.

[B]

Had your own kind of body language conversation going on.

[A]

Like, yeah, it works.

[B]

Who's taking this one?

[A]

Exactly. It worked really well. It was, it was very comfortable. I'm not a big fan of, like, sitting up on stage and having this. I mean, I'm comfortable sitting here privately in my house with you in your house privately, and just having this conversation. And when you asked me to go up on stage, depending on, like, what it is, I can be comfortable getting in front of clients. It's funny. It's like, it's totally different. I can get in front of clients, like, and doing Work.

[B]

It's.

[A]

It's what I do. Like. And so. And. But it. It was just. It was so. It was so seamless. I kind of just slid right into it. We were. No nerves, no nothing. I'm like, this just. This literally is almost another episode of either Arc Speaker Architect Ed. So it was, like, awesome. Nice. So it was kind of fun. Everybody's just like, I didn't know you had a podcast. I'm like, dude, seriously, it's even in my bio.

[B]

Don't you read my bio?

[A]

Exactly. Yeah. So if we get it up, if we get a spike from people in Baltimore, then it means that they're. People in my own office are finally checking out something that I've been doing for at least. Let's see, 10 out of the. Or. Or. Yeah, 10. 10 of the 10 years that I've been working.

[B]

The whole time that you.

[A]

The whole time that I've been there. Right.

[B]

So did you all know that Cormac does a podcast?

[A]

Yeah, he does. He does it from. It from the comfort of his own home back in the holler. So, speaking of which, you were. You were away and you went somewhere. Where'd you go?

[B]

I did. I went to sunny San Diego.

[A]

What was going on there?

[B]

It was Autodesk University. Turns out, once again, it wasn't in Vegas this year. Well, I mean, it wasn't in Vegas two years ago either. It was in New Orleans, which I did not go to that one, but it was back in Vegas last year, and they had me come to that, and then they invited me back this year to. As a. As a member of the press. Of the podcasting press. Yeah, it was.

[A]

I must have missed that invite. Yeah.

[B]

It wasn't for this podcast.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

It was for the architecture and technology podcast that I do. Did you know I have another podcast, Cormac? It's in my bio.

[A]

Oh, I must not have read that.

[B]

So I would say the highlight, though, was a quick little field trip. I was supposed to go to the Sauk. That part got canceled. Lame. But though, you get to go to. Yeah, I've been there. I went to UCSD and got to visit Geisel Library. Once again. I think I sent you a picture of that.

[A]

You sent me a picture of that? And I would. That's another one that's on the bucket list.

[B]

Should I share my screen?

[A]

Absolutely, if you got it.

[B]

Could you play some interlude music while I. While I figure this out? Have you seen this building before?

[A]

I have seen it. Only in pictures. Only in my dreams. I do very much want to go there.

[B]

So this is a William Pereira building. I don't know the year, but I'm guessing it's the 60s. I think it opened in the early 70s. And the idea behind this building. So for those of you who are listening, look up Geisel Library. If you don't know how to spell that, you can click the link that we have provided in the show notes so you can see it there.

[A]

And Geisel is who Geisel is.

[B]

Is it Theodore? I think it's Theodore Seuss. Geisel. Does that give you any clues?

[A]

Doctor of the Seuss doc.

[B]

The doctor Seuss. Yes, yes, that is Dr. Seuss.

[A]

So if you can't spell it, just look up Dr. Seuss Library.

[B]

Dr. Seuss Library at UCSD.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

This is kind of a cool view looking back at this art installation on another building across the divide. And it's this little blue house that is kind of tilted and crookedly installed on the corner of another building, totally cantilevering out. And I guess no wall or floor or anything in this. In this little thing is flat or straight or level. And it's fully furnished. But it's a really cool little art installation of a little blue house that's back on the. The corner. Anyway, the. The idea behind this building is, is that it's like these hands. I'm going to do it here holding the books. Because it's a library.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And from the outside, obviously, this is an extremely impressive building. William Pereira was. Was obviously a lover of the brutalism, and this building is a pretty exquisite example of that. And I wonder how functional this is as a library in today's day and age. And what's interesting is it's been expanded upon underground around it. So this building remains in this kind of iconic stature, this position, and they've expanded down and out underneath it. So it kind of maintains its. Its presence on the camp.

[A]

Cool. Let me just throw this out. It's. It's kind of interesting because I just recently visited a library in dc, The Folger Shakespeare Library. And there was an expansion that was done there. And because this was a. I think it was built in the 20s, 30s, but it was more of a classical building. It was expanded underneath and it was kind of expanded out and underneath. And so there's this complete, like, kind of almost like either they turned in basement space into usable, functioning museum space, but then they also kind of expanded out and kind of created. Ripped up their old front lawn and rebuilt it with a big like double volume Museum and stuff. And so I've seen like kind of that philosophy. And even at the. The arch. Yeah. Thank you. The St. Louis Arch. Your mind, you're right. You did that. That kind of showed the. This kind of like, weird, like. Yeah, I can't go up with it, so why don't I go under it?

[B]

Yeah, like.

[A]

All right, that's a choice.

[B]

At great. At great expense.

[A]

At great expense. Yes. Yeah.

[B]

But the thing about visiting it this time, and I mean, San Diego is the weather's pretty nice most of the time. Right. It was cloudy the couple days before this. When we got here, it was just freaking perfect. It was golden hour. And it's just that time of year.

[A]

Blue skies, just in clouds. Late October.

[B]

Right. Just enough clouds to define it. And the lighting is just gorgeous. And this is a cool view. This is actually like the real entry to the building, which I had never been through before. I don't remember how I got into the building, but I didn't go this way.

[A]

Shady.

[B]

So you're actually a level below the plaza. So you go down a set of stairs to get to this point, which is like this is along a main axis on the campus.

[A]

So is this part of the expansion or was this the original entry?

[B]

I believe this is part of the original entry. Don't quote me on that because I didn't ask, but. But it feels very like this is. This has been here for a long time. And the expansion is kind of to the left of this. So where I was standing in the previous photos, I was actually on top of the expansion at that point. So it's this nice kind of park like roof with a lot of planting and stuff. And then there's. There's like these light wells that pop. These really acute angled glass. They kind of look like shards kind of sticking up to get light down in various locations into the underground portions. But this is. I mean, this is a great use of the ultra wide lens on the iPhone, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because this is super skewed. But it just looks so cool.

[A]

It looks like the hull of a ship coming towards you.

[B]

Totally. It's like. Yeah, it's like this giant cruise ship that's going to literally run you over. Yeah, it's very cool. So in this library, I think it's five or six stories above ground and two or three stories below ground. So I think I'm actually entering here on like the second level because the third level, I believe is ground level and then it's five levels up. So it's Five up, three down from the original pictures. It's two more levels down from here. So it's. They've done a lot, a lot of work over the years to kind of expand it. Obviously, the university has expanded in enormous ways over the years as well.

[A]

Couldn't power wash the thing?

[B]

It's brutalism. We don't wash brutalism. There's that little house again. Very cool. But this is. In this. There's these stair cores, and you can tell, like, this was the 70s. There's literally no guardrails in here. And this is eight floors of a winding stair with no guardrails. It's all just handrail height.

[A]

All handrail height, but no true handrail that meets the top rail. Exactly.

[B]

No. Yeah, it's just the top rail. It's not like in the stairwell at all. Yeah, it's just right on top of the tread of the stringers. Yep. Yep. Crazy. So maybe an upgrade in the future. I don't know.

[A]

Maybe.

[B]

The most impressive parts of this library are all on the outside. You know, it's just. It's all about the outside of this library. You go inside. The floor to floor height is not very large. It feels kind of. Does the stacks go almost all the way to the ceiling? So it's. It's just like rows and rows and rows of books. And there's obviously views out at those glass planes, but it's like they've. They've loaded this thing with books, so it feels kind of oppressive on the inside, I have to say.

[A]

Does it. Did you take any photographs on the inside?

[B]

I did not. There were a lot of students in there. I did not want to take any pictures in there.

[A]

Understandable.

[B]

And we were kind of asked to kind of go in and not, you know, not disturb, stand out, not be architecture. It was pretty impossible.

[A]

How many people just. In this cool building, how many people were hugging the concrete?

[B]

I touched it, I gave it. I didn't. I didn't get. I. I might have been the only one. I don't know. I don't know if people. People were into it.

[A]

I mean, you just look at those, like, kind of very sculptural reentrant corners and stuff. It's just. And then the waffle slab. Does that waffle slab translate into the building? I mean, do they see it? You can't see it. Okay, no.

[B]

Maybe you can right at the glass, but. But everything has a. Has a drop ceiling in those. But you can walk fully underneath this thing and you can kind of. You get a little Bit of it here, but on the. On the right, you can see, like, the rounded corners of the board form. Concrete core. And that goes all the way up through the whole building. And it's. That's where I was. That's where I was rubbing concrete on the inside. It's just. It's awesome.

[A]

I'm trying to put myself into the head of the. The concrete guy that was pouring the. Forming, maybe. Forming.

[B]

Maybe they got somebody from one of Sarana's project, and they're like, yeah, we can totally do that.

[A]

I'm sure. I mean, it was just. You just. You look at it and you're just like, look at the rigor of the board forming on this. It is such. It. There. It's. It looks perfect. Yeah, it's. I mean, you see the board forms on the columns in the. And these piers that then go into these.

[B]

The fingers.

[A]

We want to call them. I was gonna. For some reason, I wanted to call them buttresses, maybe just because I just wanted to say buttress. Buttress.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But. But they're not really buttresses, per se.

[B]

Yeah, they're these really cool.

[A]

Are they. Are they just brutalist?

[B]

They're kind of like tree branches. You think of this thing, like, trunk in the middle, and then these tree branches go kind of hold floor plates.

[A]

It definitely feel. In some angles, you definitely can read that kind of. That idea of the hands holding the books. And then others, you see the treehouse, and.

[B]

And it's kind of surrounded. You can see in this photo, like, in the background, there's a lot of these really beautiful eucalyptus trees that are really. They're everywhere on the campus, but also in the La Hoya area, so. But contextually, you get that idea that this building is linking with the landscape in that way.

[A]

Yes. Yeah.

[B]

Because it is a brutalist building, and it is like this heavy thing that it doesn't feel like it's crushing the earth because of the form that they've done.

[A]

No.

[B]

It feels very light for a brutalist building.

[A]

Yeah, it's floating up. There's nothing about this that feels heavy like a typical brutalist building. But it definitely looks, feels, reads, and is a brutalist building. But it is probably one of the lightest feeling brutalist buildings I've really ever seen.

[B]

And I would say what adds to that is this lighting. Perfect day because it's so warm and the concrete is warm. It's not cold. Like, when you look at it right here, it just feels warm and kind of inviting. Right. Whereas I think a lot of brutalist buildings or just concrete in general feels very cold and kind of off putting for a lot of people, so. Yeah, but they aren't fans of the show, those people.

[A]

Yeah. And the cool thing is that we need angles. Yeah.

[B]

This building is so photogenic.

[A]

It's just like, I agree with you.

[B]

And you look at it and it is totally symmetrical. Right. It's like design one side and, and rotate array, copy exactly. Three more times.

[A]

Right, exactly.

[B]

And, but it's still like you can just find these really cool angles. Here's a, here's a bronze statue of, of Dr. Seuss and his, and, and the character of the Grinch there, I believe. And.

[A]

Oh, you know what?

[B]

Pretty cool. This is out in front.

[A]

You should be fired.

[B]

Or is this the cat in the hat?

[A]

That's the cat in the hat.

[B]

Thanks. Yeah, I should have known that.

[A]

I'll edit that. No, I won't edit that out.

[B]

Evan's an idiot. This proves it. Then I started taking these more detailed shots and I thought, okay, this is, this is kind of, you know, this. Okay, so this is my 5x zoom on the, on the, the new iPhone, which I am freaking loving because I can zoom in and get shots like this. And again, you see the reentrant corners on the corner mullions of the glazing.

[A]

And look at the way that normally.

[B]

You just pick up.

[A]

Look at the way that the reflection reads the, all of the overhangs. Yeah, they look like cuts, but they look like cuts. They look like it's kind of a figure ground kind of feel to it.

[B]

So you're in for a treat, my friend, because I noticed that too. And then I stepped back.

[A]

Of course you did.

[B]

And I think you said, now this.

[A]

Building, oh, my gosh, it looks, this.

[B]

Building looks a third of the weight of exactly. Of what it, what you would normally experience because of that. Right. Because of the, like, mirror, like reflections that the glazing is providing with the overhangs. And all of a sudden now it looks like cuts in the building. And it looks like Swiss cheese and.

[A]

It looks even lighter. It almost looks like it's got a sunroof on it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so we definitely are going to have to put some of these in the show notes as well as anybody who might watch the video. You'll be able to see some of these and then your nice little stylized ones. I, I, I liked these. They're almost. This definitely feels to me when you did this and you sent this and also posted this. It felt like, ooh, this is going to Be one of those book covers talking about the guys little library.

[B]

This is just a. So this, this is on your. On your. In the new newest version of the photos app on iPhone. There's all these photographic styles, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Most of those styles don't make sense for any photograph except for this. But on a brutalist building.

[A]

Oh my gosh, those, those are wicked cool to use. Look at those beautiful hard. Those hard shadows that just kind of like form almost like rolling waves.

[B]

And you could see all the dirt on the windows and it doesn't even matter.

[A]

Exactly. Well, the cool thing is one of the shots, like this shot here that is reflecting the sky.

[B]

The sky.

[A]

It makes it feel so light. There is yes, the base. If you start to think about the center core of it, it feels heavy, but it doesn't ever really feel heavy again. It doesn't feel heavy because of the lightness of all of the columns that form the colonnade. That.

[B]

That's exactly it. Like the true core is. Is minimized in the middle of the building and pulled back from the buttress that's flying down. Right, exactly. And it's. That creates that colonnade out front. And so yeah, I mean all of these things really do contribute together to, to make the whole.

[A]

So I'll say that anytime I talking about architecture or certain type. Like if you go to like a Gothic cathedral or something and I was like walking around with my sons, of course the second I say buttress, they're like buttress.

[B]

That's where it came from.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. It's just.

[B]

They got it from you.

[A]

They, they, they loved. Well, they just thought that buttress was the funniest word.

[B]

Yeah, it is. So it is the funniest word. Anyway. No, that was the highlight of. That was the highlight of the technology conference right there.

[A]

So.

[B]

So you go to 1970s brutalism building.

[A]

So you go pre autocad. That was all hand drafted. So there like nothing about that building, you know, that was pure, handcrafted, pure, hand drawn, pure, just like generated out of the mind of the architect and the structural engineer using slide rules and everything else. So there's nothing about anything that you were learning about how technology makes life easier and all of that other stuff at this conference was on display in this building.

[B]

Timeless. It was timeless. I'm sure people have their gripes about it.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I actually have a Perera book, I have a Pereira monograph here. I should actually read the story of that project because it would probably enrich the. Yeah, my thoughts about it. I'm sure. So. So one other. One other. So here's a technology thing. This is kind of. This again, this is not at the conference, but I'll. I'll share my screen one more time here. And this was the car rental area at the San Diego airport. And this is on a three story wall. And it's kind of a generative design composition of taillights. Right. These are all tail lights from a car and they're laid out in this pattern.

[A]

Do we know what car it was?

[B]

I don't know what car, but. Because it's a very odd shape. I don't. I have no idea. But it. But it's just this giant three story wall. It's probably 40ft tall by 70ft wide, and it's covered in hundreds of these laid out in a kind of a organic pattern of tail lights that are mounted to this wall.

[A]

So when I was telling you earlier about the kind of that lobby space that we're creating for our building at Hopkins, think about at least a wall area this size that has like part of our art wall and this art glass.

[B]

I was thinking of this when you were saying that. So I'm like, oh, I have something to show here.

[A]

Exactly. Yeah. So once we actually get to that one in 2026.

[B]

Nice. You can show it.

[A]

I can show it.

[B]

Architecture projects take too long.

[A]

They do.

[B]

Geez.

[A]

They do. Wow. They do. Because we were working on the feasibility study of this in 2016 and it's still going. This is honestly hands down the longest project that I've ever worked on. Now I have worked on some five year projects and things like that. And, and even the, the Saudi Arabia project that I'm working on, it will, you know, probably end up being total design and construction around six years. But this one through like the process and you know, Covid and everything else and funny. I mean, we worked through Covid like we were working through Covid on the building. And so it's. It's been a non stop project since 2016. So it'll definitely be the longest project that I've worked on in my career. And, and, and unfortunately some of our younger staff that started at, at the firm on this project have yet to experience another project.

[B]

Oh my God. Wow.

[A]

But they have grown. Oh my gosh. This is one of those, this is like one of those very long, like very protracted, like boot camps. It's just like not six months, six years. Protracted boot camp. Yeah. It's like you.

[B]

That's. That's. Welcome to architecture.

[A]

You will never know Another building in a world.

[B]

Could you imagine in a world horrible.

[A]

Where you have a career that spans one project.

[B]

Oh, God. Sounds horrid.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

Oh, well, let's see from there. I mean, I don't, I haven't really collected my thoughts on the conference. It was, had very different vibe being in San Diego than in Vegas. Previous to that. It was definitely more low key for sure. It was not quite as in your face and it was, you know, it wasn't as Vegasy.

[A]

Is it? So it's been as you could imagine, Vegas, Vegas, Vegas, Vegas. Then you went to Nolan's, then you went to Vegas again, then you. Now is it, is it now like going to be doing that where it then starts to look at one or.

[B]

Is it their goal was to get away from Vegas. I haven't heard any official story, but next year it's in Nashville.

[A]

Oh. So, okay, interesting.

[B]

I think the goal was to get away from Vegas, just move it around for forever. Now I think I would maybe kind.

[A]

Of, kind of like, like, hey, why don't we go to the people instead of the people come to us? Or at least make it a little bit easier for some people.

[B]

You know, there's, there's pros and cons to that, right? Like AIA conferences in a different city every, every year, right? And, and this one was in the same city every year. And Vegas definitely knows how to do conferences, right? Like they do bread and butter. And the hotels are literally in the conference center grounds like the Venetian, the Palazzo. They're right there at the Sands Convention center, right? So you don't have to walk or get an Uber or do anything. They got a lot of feedback, I think, from New Orleans that it was like people would be signed up for classes and then realize that they had a 35 minute uber ride from their hotel, right? It was like, oh, crap, we're not going to make it. Where in Vegas, you literally walk out of your room, not too far, and you're, you're where all the classes are. And that was pretty easy. Plus there's just kind of this muscle memory that you build in if you attend every year, right? It's like, I know exactly where everything is and if I go to a different city, I have to figure that out. And that takes time. Like there's a learning curve to every convention center, to every city.

[A]

So do you think? Well, so for us going to AIA conventions in different cities, it gives us that opportunity to learn different cities and.

[B]

Learn new architectures, that opportunity to visit the city and not go to the conference. I think that's what you're saying.

[A]

We're not supposed to be talking about that anyway.

[B]

Secret.

[A]

Yeah, don't, don't.

[B]

I mean, that's, that's what we do, right? It's like you're in a cool city. You want to experience the city, especially if you've never been there before. Well, I mean, like New York.

[A]

Yeah. Remember when we were like traipsing all over New York to like, oh, it. First it's in the Javits Center.

[B]

That's what you do.

[A]

Now it's here. Now it's, oh, now we gotta like, exactly. We gotta like hoof it down to a Radio City.

[B]

And it was. Yeah, yeah, it was all over the place.

[A]

And it was cool because then you got to see like some of these like big time venues that most people just hear about. It's like, oh, I've never been to New York. And then they like.

[B]

But logistically it's more difficult too, right?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Because there was a lot of people huffing it down the streets.

[B]

You're, you're city biking, you're subwaying, you're taxing, you're ubering, whatever, you're doing all that stuff. And, and exactly. I mean, it wasn't that to that level in San Diego, but there was many hotels near the. Right next to the convention center, which was fine. And then most of the day you're just at the convention center and then you're. We got to go out and do this one little field trip that's.

[A]

I mean, you're like that just one little field trip. That one little awesome field trip.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I mean, yeah, it was kind of cool.

[B]

It was, it was fun. It was, it was good for me. Just like I've said on this podcast, every time we've gone to a conference, it's about the people for me, it's. I'm not there for the classes, I'm not there for the keynotes. As much I do have to thank.

[A]

You for, thank you for inviting me, but I'm going to ignore all of it.

[B]

I went. No, I went to the keynote and I, and I will critique the a, the architecture keynote. It was bad. It was not good. And if anybody who's listening saw that, I hope that you have similar feelings as I did. It needs a lot of help. It was seriously poorly read. Telepromptering. It was not good at all.

[A]

So as you can see on the PowerPoint that I'm going to read off of.

[B]

Like, it wasn't it wasn't words on the screen, but the power. The. The teleprompters are on the stage and behind us in the audience.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it was. It was a little too much robotic reading.

[A]

And here we are going to talk about architecture.

[B]

More practice. More practice.

[A]

And it says, like, insert hand gesture.

[B]

What did Biden do recently? I think there was, like, in. In his politicians read the teleprompter, too. And it was like, repeat line. Because it was like. It was like, there's, like, notes in red to repeat the last line to say it again for impact. And he literally read the part that said, repeat last line. Oh, man. When you rely on it a little too much, this is what.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I think we said this at the last AIA conference, though, too. It was very, like. There was actually a part where. And I won't name names, but there was a part where somebody said, somebody, I need everybody in the audience to sit down so that I can read the teleprompter. Right.

[A]

Yes, there. There were a few that you could clearly tell it was just a straight read the keynotes, they weren't like the first day keynote. Why am I blanking on his name? Because I was just. Just talking about. Yes.

[B]

Arthur Brooks.

[A]

Arthur Brooks. Which was just phenomenal. And then there were. There were a few of the institutional or the institute's leadership that it was a little tough to kind of like, wow, you're reading.

[B]

I mean, there's a lot of pressure to have a little bit of empathy. There's a lot of pressure to perform well.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then you become reliant on these tools. Right. And. And then you can't do it without the teleprompter all of a sudden, and you don't know what comes next. And you can't read the teleprompter. And it's like, oh, crap, what do we do?

[A]

So. So it was interesting. And so, like, I was telling you that I kind of did the little emceeing. We did the little emceeing, the two podcasters for this. This thing. And both of us kind of had notes that we had been taking as we were, like, talking and kind of interviewing, like, prepping for all of this. It's just like, what kind of message do we want to talk about? Like, what. What do we want to highlight as part of, like, this discussion about the. The strategic plan? How do we humanize it? How to. To talk about what it means to, like, the people that live the. The firm every day? And so, like, I had a series of notes, and every so often I would, like, glance down and say, okay, what am I gonna. And so I'd use it as a prompt, but not a teleprompter where I'm sitting here and holding it up and reading it with things.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

It was just, like, a little key to, like, oh, this is what I'm gonna need to say. And then I would just like. I. I had. Yeah, I had a script that I wrote out, and then I rewrote it, and I rewrote it, and it started to get ingrained into my head of, like, this. And then, of course, when I said it, it was probably completely different than the. What I wrote, but it was kind of like the gist of it, which I was just like, hey, I. I almost gave myself a little pat on the back for that one. I was just like, you did an okay job, pal.

[B]

Yeah, good job, Cormac. I'll give you a good job.

[A]

Thanks.

[B]

Attaboy.

[A]

I appreciate it. Wish you were there. Yeah.

[B]

Good job.

[A]

You're like, I was so totally okay in sunny San Diego.

[B]

Yes. Well, and then I drove to my. My mom's house to do another trip of stuff packing and bringing stuff back up here to Oregon. And then we did the. The Palm Springs, now 820 Mile Drive in one day. Wait, we were. We were gonna break it up because we learned that lesson before, but we were at, like, hour 10.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I was like, I feel pretty good. Let's go for it. And she said, okay. And so we did. We left at 8 in the morning. I got home at midnight. That was a long day, man.

[A]

That was a long day. Yeah.

[B]

Towing a big trailer. Towing a big camping trailer. And. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Slow going up i5. All the way up. California all the way.

[A]

Totally reminds me of, like, my. Hey, let's go take the kid. Let's go pack up the truck.

[B]

I thought about you.

[A]

It's just like, I remember those drives that you do. Yeah. Oh, yeah, dude. I. I feel for you.

[B]

I just wanted it to be over because I didn't want to spend two days doing that, you know?

[A]

So let me ask you, when you got to the very end of it, did you start feeling. You're like. You're feeling good. You're feeling good. And then did you hit that wall of loopiness?

[B]

I didn't crash.

[A]

No.

[B]

I didn't, like. Yeah, I didn't physically or crash. It was. I was just so happy to be home, like, or to be close to be home. I could not wait to be home.

[A]

Sometimes, especially when I'm by myself and it's, like, pitch black and stuff. I'm like.

[B]

Yeah, you're, like, leaning forward, doing some stretching. Yeah. In the. In the seat. Rolling the window down, like, smacking yourself in the face.

[A]

Sticking your head out the window like a dog.

[B]

Wake up.

[A]

Go, like, splash.

[B]

No, I've never experienced that. Ever.

[A]

No. No. Doesn't sound like it. No.

[B]

Yeah. So it's been an eventful month. I was. I. I have some homework for you, maybe for the next episode. I need to do this, too. Write down all the states you've been to this year. Just this year.

[A]

Just this year.

[B]

I mean, you're on the East Coast. This is easier for you. This is. You. You may have more, but we'll see.

[A]

We'll see, we'll see. Because remember. Can I include Canadian provinces as well?

[B]

Yeah, you can.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Places. Places. Yeah. All right. Remember, when I. I'm not saying it's a competition, but it might be.

[A]

It actually sounds like you try. Try to throw a gauntlet down.

[B]

How many can you squeeze in before next week?

[A]

I was gonna say. Let's see. I think I. I think I need to go down and visit my sister in Florida.

[B]

Yeah. Didn't you already go down there once this year? Yes, I think you might. I think you did. Yeah.

[A]

So have. Have I Pretty much. No, not. It's not even pretty much. I think I've hit every state on the eastern seaboard this year.

[B]

Oh, that's right, because you went all the way up through Maine and everything. Yep. Jeez. All right.

[A]

I'm feeling.

[B]

Declare myself a loser right now.

[A]

I'm feeling. You might want to. You sure you want to do this? Are you sure?

[B]

We talk about the value of getting out of the office and doing this thing, and so we might as well keep score. All right. I'm writing it down. I got a homework assignment here. Just states.

[A]

Yeah, I can. Well, if you bring your guitar, we'll sing about it. There's Alabama.

[B]

I wrote a song about it. Want to hear here to go here? Yeah.

[A]

All right, then. Something.

[B]

Until next time.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. When we embarrass Evan in his meager small. Although, here's the thing. You've got. You've got the west coast, so it would be interesting to say, how many miles did you do versus how many states did you do?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because.

[B]

Well, keep track of mileage. It's too much. Like, you can't either. You got too many miles on your car.

[A]

Oh. So I gotta tell you this Because I send you like, I take photographs of like, when I hit, like the perfect palindrome. And then I send it off to you kind of thing. And I looked down and I. And I looked down and it was 8, 8, 8, 8, 6. And I'm like, oh, 2 miles. I gotta do. Do this. And then you remember. And then I. Then I was talking to my daughter and then I look. I'm looking over and all this other stuff and I'm like, I gotta remember this. And then I look back over and right as I grab the thing, it clicks over to 8, 8, 8, 8, 9. Damn.

[B]

I did this thing recently. I did the same thing recently. Missed it by one mile.

[A]

I was like, now I have to wait till like 9. I know he was just the same thing. Which.

[B]

What's the next one?

[A]

What's the next milestone?

[B]

It's in a while. Yes.

[A]

I don't know. I've got a.

[B]

You'll be there sooner.

[A]

I got to get the kid for both Thanksgiving and for Christmas for winter break, so.

[B]

Why don't they just lump that together?

[A]

Geez, I wish, honestly, I wish I could have swore that there was a time when maybe it was during the quarter era.

[B]

Well, yeah, we used to get like winter break. Yeah, right?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. But it was like a, like four or five weeks worth. It wasn't just like this little measly like, hey, we get off in. In mid to late December because, like, I'm going to be doing end of year reviews the week of the 19th of December. Like, hey, that's. That's nice.

[B]

Right?

[A]

No one. I didn't sign. I would say I didn't sign up for the. Oh, and I did.

[B]

It'll encourage you to keep them short and to the point because you don't want to be working.

[A]

I. I may be a week off on when that is roughly. It's like around that, like mid December period. And. Yeah. Yeah, mid December checked out.

[B]

Yeah, totally.

[A]

I'm hoping they're not right.

[B]

All right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All right. Good luck on your homework.

[A]

Yep.