#353 - Architecture Students are Screwed

Summary

Archispeak Podcast #353 - "Architecture Students are Screwed"

Hosts: Evan Troxel & Cormac Phalen
Date: December 5, 2024

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Episode Overview

Evan and Cormac dig into the stark realities of architectural education and early careers, prompted by a listener's question about the sustainability of pursuing architecture given sky-high tuition costs and persistent low entry-level salaries. With their trademark candor and humor, the hosts discuss how generational differences, firm structures, pathways to licensure, and specialization all shape the contemporary landscape for students and emerging professionals. The episode also dips into industry nostalgia, alternative career strategies, and the existential questions that come with decades in the field.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Salad Days & Generational Shifts

• The episode opens with a playful reference to "Salad Days," both the idiom and the DC punk documentary, setting a tone of nostalgia and generational reflection.
• Cormac reminiscences about music from his youth and how students today are unfamiliar with certain historical architectural icons and references (e.g., the Pompidou Centre, Richard Rogers vs. Renzo Piano).
  • (03:19)
    Cormac: “Anytime you ask us a question, whether it’s like an architect or a music or something like that, we’re not going to know the answer.”
  • (04:23)
    Cormac: “If he's doing them in the Baltimore, D.C. area, we end up being his architect… his local people to do the real work.”

2. Listener Question: Education Costs vs. Salary Prospects

• The core topic is spurred by a listener considering a 3-year master’s program costing between $81k–$225k.
• The hosts weigh the feasibility of such investment given entry-level architecture salaries.
  • (06:23)
    Cormac: “Here’s the funny thing is I’m not sure any of it really makes sense.”

Salary Reality Check

• Entry level salaries are typically $40k–$50k, with geographic and firm type variations. Major cities might pay more, but cost of living offsets gains.
• Online sources (e.g., Google AI) give inflated numbers ($100k+), which the hosts debunk as “so, so wrong.”
  • (08:41)
    Cormac: “Google, you couldn’t be any more wrong.”
  • (09:46)
    Cormac: “ZipRecruiter… entry level architect salary is $40,529. And in a way that seems more legit.”

The Debt Trap

• The hosts compare their own college costs from the 1990s (~$2,500/year) to contemporary tuitions upwards of $32k/year at public universities, not including architecture’s extra fees.

  • (17:16)
    Cormac: “In-state, you know, fees, all of that, it’s $32,960. That is obscenely the huge jump.”

• Many students, hosts included, expect to be paying off student loans for decades.

  • (20:44)
    Cormac: “Can I go ahead and admit to you that, you know, 25 years into my career, I’m still chipping away at my student…”

3. Firm Culture: Advancement, Opaqueness, and Structural Issues

• Advancement opportunities and transparency are inconsistent. Most firms lack clear paths; longevity or hard work don't guarantee progression.
  • (11:13)
    Evan: “None of that exists in most firms. Right.”
  • (12:33)
    Cormac: “This is the first time in the 25 years that I’ve been working that I’ve actually had that kind of defined goal setting.”
• Corporate or large firms may offer more defined ladders, but can come with office politics and gatekeeping.
• Smaller firms typically have flatter structures and less bureaucracy but fewer growth opportunities.

The Wage Stagnation Problem

• With so many architecture graduates and a limited number of available positions, firms keep wages low. Recent grads report having to live at home or with multiple roommates to get by.

4. Alternative Paths to Architecture

Apprenticeship & Licensure by Experience

• Certain states (e.g., Maryland) allow licensure via apprenticeship, bypassing the degree. Examples are given of respected architects who followed this route, including John Baker of NCARB.
  • (22:30)
    Cormac: “He’s probably one of the best architects... because he worked under a multitude of different project managers and principals.”

Non-traditional Roles and Tech Paths

• Some firms value skilled non-degreed staff specializing in technical production or technology, suggesting alternative directions for entering the profession.
  • (23:28)
    Evan: “They actually hire people who are technically oriented, have no background in architecture at all, train them, and they’re doing really well…”

Importance (and Underappreciation) of Generalists and Specialists

• Specialists (e.g., acousticians, lab planners) can accelerate their careers and command higher salaries more quickly by becoming indispensible experts, while generalists may be overlooked.
  • (27:57)
    Evan: “[Michael Ehrman]…specializing in a niche creates opportunities for you... You’re the go-to person for that and you can actually…be more valuable.”
• The balance and interplay between generalists and specialists is vital for successful teams and projects.
  • (33:34)
    Cormac: “If you want a successful building, you have to have all of them.”

5. Questioning the Value of Name-Brand Degrees

• The hosts challenge the idea that prestigious schools open more doors, sharing anecdotes where on-the-job skills matter more than diplomas.
  • (37:46)
    Cormac: “[My friend]’s like, ‘I’d love to tell you what it’s like to work with Harvard grads... but they don’t work. So I’m the one doing all of the work.’”
• Evan asserts that most architecture firms care about performance and attitude, not the name on a degree.

6. Entrepreneurship and Ownership as a Solution

• Starting your own firm is presented as a way to potentially break free from salary and advancement stagnation.
• New tech and business models, as well as “doing things differently,” are cited as ways to add value and avoid the “race to the bottom.”
  • (41:08)
    Cormac: “Usually the people who go out on their own want to do something different from the status quo...the punk architect.”

7. Structural Problems in the Profession

• Oversupply of graduates and slow-moving industry culture keep wages down and limit opportunities.
• The hosts call for professional bodies (AIA, NCARB, NAAB) to seriously address these systemic issues.
  • (43:42)
    Evan: “Everybody should be stepping back. The AIA should be looking at this. NCARB should be looking at this because this is...a profession wide issue.”

8. Trades, Draftsmen, and Shifting Values

• The role of the career draftsman has vanished, replaced by indebted young professionals, and technical specialization is undervalued.
  • (48:21)
    Cormac: “The majority of firms out there in this profession do not have draftsmen in the way that we used to… Now we have a college-educated, deeply, probably deeply in debt individual doing the same things…”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On entry-level salary expectations:

  “Google AI... gives you entry-level architect in the United States is $128,756. Wherever that is, I apparently need to move.”
  — Cormac (08:41)

• On old-school tuition costs vs. today:

  “Full time undergraduate in-state... was $2,250 bucks... It’s $32,960 now.”
  — Cormac (16:56)

• On career satisfaction:

  “What I noticed mostly is not the I don’t give a damn attitude, but it’s... I’ve done this long enough that I don’t need to stress over this... I feel like I’ve turned the corner.”
  — Cormac (52:19)

• On specialization:

  “Specializing in a niche creates opportunities for you... And you can actually be more valuable, seen as more valuable...”
  — Evan (27:57)

• On entrepreneurship as escape:

  “Once you’ve achieved licensure or registration, then go start your own architecture business with a different business model so you are not shackled to these salary positions...”
  — Evan (39:55)

• On changing perspective with age:

  “Once you hit the summit, now you’re going down... I finally... feel like I’ve turned the corner where I’m like, oh, you don’t always have to do it yourself...”
  — Cormac (52:03)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:09–04:45
  "Salad Days" nostalgia, generational gaps, music, and students' architectural literacy
• 05:09–11:13
  Listener letter: Is an $81k–$225k degree worth it? Salary realities and career payback math
• 11:13–14:20
  Firm hierarchy, advancement processes, and wage stagnation
• 17:16–21:27
  Personal stories of college costs and decades of student debt
• 22:30–24:45
  Alternative licensure through apprenticeship and experienced-based paths
• 27:57–33:34
  Specialization, generalists vs. experts, and the advantage of niche skills
• 36:51–39:09
  Does school prestige matter? On learning, drive, and personal growth
• 41:08–46:42
  Entrepreneurship and doing things differently to escape salary traps
• 48:21–50:28
  The loss of the draftsman, undervaluing technical specialization
• 52:03–58:36
  Turning 50: self-reflection, changing career philosophy, avoiding regret

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Final Thoughts

This episode offers a sobering—yet hopeful—look at what it really means to enter and persist in architecture today. Evan and Cormac dispense practical advice for students and emerging professionals questioning the ROI of their education, emphasizing that the traditional, expensive degree pathway is not the only option. They urge listeners to know their goals, consider specialization, advocate for themselves, and not be fooled by industry myths about prestige or guaranteed advancement. Ultimately, this is a call to rethink career planning in architecture, and, for those further along, to reflect on what really matters—both professionally and personally.

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Visit archispeakpodcast.com for more episodes, show notes, and resources.

Transcript

[A]

What are we talking about?

[B]

Salad Days. You know what that is, right?

[A]

No, go ahead and tell me.

[B]

So.

[A]

Oh, you're talking about the movie.

[B]

There's the movie.

[A]

Yes, the documentary.

[B]

But Salad Days, as it is stated in Google, is an idiom that refers to a time of youth, innocence, and pleasure. You know, where'd it go?

[A]

Karmic. Where'd it go?

[B]

That's true. So that's the question. Where did it go? I've been listening to a lot of. I. I created a. A playlist that is labeled Salad Days.

[A]

Oh, nice.

[B]

That is all the music that I listen to specifically, because the movie that you're referring to, Salad Days, which is about the DC Punk scene and the music that I listen to is from the D.C. punk scene. I created a playlist called that. And then there's also a song from Minor Threat called Salad Taste.

[A]

Minor Threat is. Explain to the listeners who don't know.

[B]

Explain to the listeners who Minor Threat is. First of all, I guess we could.

[A]

Just put a link in the show notes. How about that? You don't have to do your rant right now because that's what. That's. How dare you not know?

[B]

How dare you not know? Well, it was funny. Is. I was talking to. I discovered that one of my students has. Is a drummer in a band, and they were getting ready to play a gig, and one of the kids on their team brings in a little Bluetooth speaker, and then they just. Each person, like, logs in and listens to whatever, and they're like, if you want to play your music, you can. I'm like, I don't know if you guys want to listen to that.

[A]

I don't know if you can handle it.

[B]

Well, I mean, it's not intended to be, like, me being a snobber or anything.

[A]

It's not.

[B]

It's. It's. It's mostly just the fact that most people. It's not their cup of tea, so I don't subject them to it. So unless they're driving next to me, which then they're like, wow, I didn't realize that the stereo could go up that loud. Because it can.

[A]

What are you so angry about?

[B]

You know, it's funny, I think you.

[A]

Told me once you would listen to, like, Suicidal Tendencies to settle down.

[B]

It is. It is honestly the opposite effect of. I don't get, like, angry or upset or anything when I'm listening to it. When I am angry and upset, I actually listen to that and it starts to calm me down, which is odd.

[A]

Baseline. Yeah, that Is odd. That's something. Some. Something going. Going on in the chemistry there. I won't say if it's right or wrong, but.

[B]

True, true, true, true. I. I mean, I don't think anybody can really discern what is right or wrong going on inside this head, but. But anyway, so. And then they were just like, oh, well, what do you listen to? I'm like, well, currently I'm listening to a playlist. And I said, salad Days. And they're like, well, what's that? It was just like, well, it's just mostly DC hardcore punk from the 80s and. Oh, what bands? And I started rattling them off and this one girl reminded me that Cormac. Don't you know that anytime you ask us a question, whether it's like an architect or a music or something like that, that we're not going to know the answer?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You'. Different era, old man. Yes, yeah, very much so.

[B]

Yeah. Somebody was drawing their mechanical and they had the skin of the building turned off, and so the mechanical was exposed and all of this other stuff. And so I had mentioned to them that famed building in. In Paris. That.

[A]

That one. Just that one.

[B]

That one building.

[A]

The one building that's inside out.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. And I asked him, do you know about this? And they're like, no. And I'm like, really? And then. So then they look it up. They're like, oh, whoa, no way. That's pretty amazing. And I'm like, do you know who did that building? And they're just like. I was like, have you heard of Richard Rogers? And they're like, no. Like, really? You haven't heard of Richard Rogers? I'm like, have you heard of Renzo Piano? And they're like, yeah, we've heard of Renzo Piano. It's like, I don't really. I think it might have been from, like, you talking about them, but I'm like, man, like.

[A]

I'm sure you've talked about good old Renzo.

[B]

Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, we're doing a project with him. Our second project, I guess, or possibly third project. I can't remember how many projects we've done with him, but we're. If he's doing them in the Baltimore, D.C. area, we end up being his architect. Yeah. His local people to do the real.

[A]

Work.

[B]

And then real. And then live by the. You know how we always. You need to stop design, you need to just start documenting or you're never going to make your deadline. Yeah, well, that doesn't. That does not exist in the lexicon of Renzo piano.

[A]

Don't you know that it design takes as long as it takes. That's all there is to it, man.

[B]

It is. You're right. You're right.

[A]

Takes as long as it takes. Well, speaking of different eras, we got a letter from a listener that I've been sitting on here for a while.

[B]

Dope.

[A]

And I'm going to paraphrase it. It was a rap. Not, not super long, but long enough to not warrant reading the whole thing on the air. But I, I'm just going to summarize it. So our listener is exploring a three year mark program and can qualify with some prerequisites in a portfolio. But the cost, different schools that this person's looking at range from 81k to 225k for the three years alone. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Okay. I was gonna say please tell me it's for the, for at least the three years so that I don't like vomit on.

[A]

I'm pretty sure that they wouldn't be on the list. Yeah. If it were per year. Okay. So how do you finance an education like that when the starting salary of a junior architect is what it is? I mean let's just. What is the starting salary of a junior architect? And then we'll kind of work backwards and talk about maybe some strategies of how to make this make sense. I don't, I don't know. I don't think a better way to frame this at the moment.

[B]

You know, here's the funny thing is I'm not sure any of it really makes sense. I see how much you're just right to the end.

[A]

Well, only for all the bs.

[B]

Yeah. I mean only for the fact that as a parent that is has two college age children that are in college right now and one is on at a local university, but a really good university, but he qualified for a bunch of things and it's a lot cheaper. And then the other one who's going still in state, but it's up north and a small school pays a lot of money and is already three years in. It's 50 some odd thousand and it's just, it's insane. Like that's your, I won't say liberal arts degree. It's his. He's getting a bachelor's of science in biology and zoology is what he's getting. But still it's like how are you going to be able to pay this off? Which goes to other conversations about other things. But I, I, yeah. Starting salary of architects these days or just entry level I don't even know anymore, to be quite honest with you. Did you look it up? Hopefully, possibly.

[A]

Maybe. I, I didn't look it up, but my guess is it's, let's just say 50k and I think that's generous.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Would, would you say that? I would probably between 40 and 45. But I would say if it's in a big city, it might be closer to. I think that they've actually been creeping up based on. I asked this question on LinkedIn as well just to kind of get some information to crowdsource it. And some of the feedback that I heard was that, that they have been seeing salaries going up in major metropolitan areas and whether you would want to work in those locations. If you don't live there already and move there and do all of the logistics, you would have to do that. But also the cost of living is going to be higher in those locations as well. I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter that, that salaries are higher in those locations when the cost of living is okay.

[B]

So as you see me probably glancing down and all this other stuff, I.

[A]

Do, I do, I do. I, I, I, I was filling time.

[B]

I was, I love this answer because it is wrong. It is so wrong.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It is so, so wrong. So Google AI, because now that you've got the, you give the AI overview when you Google something. As of November 2024, the average salary for entry level architect in the United States is $100,000, $128,756 a year, wherever that is. I apparently need to move.

[A]

Right.

[B]

The majority of entry level architects earn between 91 and $166,000 per year. Top earners can earn 180,000. Well, Google, you couldn't be any more wrong.

[A]

In your experience, Cormac. In your experience. I'm not saying in my experience either, but I think there are, there are many top level corporate C suite people earning well.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

So to the dismay of all of.

[B]

Those who I will say that ZipRecruiter seems to be a little bit more legit and.

[A]

Okay, let's, let's hear what zip, ZIP.

[B]

Recruiter has ranges for architects and the entry level architect salary is $40,529. And in a way that seems more, more legit.

[A]

Again, 40,000.

[B]

40,000.

[A]

Let's just say 41 an hour, people. That's $20 an hour. Yeah, yeah, but that is so messed up because. Okay, I don't know if you're comfortable sharing what you make. Probably not Right. But, but my guess is it's not enough. Okay. And let's just frame it like this because this is how I've thought about it. I might have said this to you in the past. Let's say that you're making. Okay, so let's just say that California, in California for fast food workers, it's $20 an hour.

[B]

Let's just say when I read that AI summary, I am just barely making the AI salary. Just barely.

[A]

Or, or, and how, how long have you been in the business?

[B]

25 years.

[A]

And, and would you. Okay, so, so, you know, there's all kinds of things that play into that. It's not like just how long you've been there. It's like how, how often do you move firms? It's obvious that is a thing that will earn you more money is by moving around. Which is ridiculously terrible because yeah, you shouldn't have to do that to earn a higher wage.

[B]

True.

[A]

Are you an advocate for yourself? Do you push for these things? Is there a clear ladder that you climb? There Are there clear goals that you have to achieve or performance things that you have to achieve to get to next levels? None of that exists. None of that exists in most firms. Right. Generalizing a bit. But for the most part, all of that is really opaque. I would have to say.

[B]

Well, I will. So I will say that in. For the most part, you're right because I have in multiple firms that I've worked for. I never knew where I was. It's just, okay, you are a project architect or you are a project manager and that's it. And then you're never really told, okay, is there growth pops, possibilities, you know, is there promotion possibilities? Are they all these other things? And very rarely do I did I ever know that. I will say that where I'm at now at Air Saint Gross, we actually have essentially, here are your roles and responsibilities for each of those positions. And essentially you can create a goal that says, okay, here's what I'm supposed to be doing as a project architect. Here's what I'm supposed to be doing as a project manager. If I want to become a project manager, here's how I can advance in. And then, then we also have the associate, senior associate, associate, principal and principal levels now.

[A]

Yeah, like corporate designations on top in addition to your, your actual job responsibilities.

[B]

And they have clear defined. These are what we are looking for. If you're an associate, here's what we're looking for, senior associate and so on. And there are definable goals. And this is the first time in the 25 years that I've been working that I've actually had that kind of defined goal setting of okay, if I want to be, this is what I need to achieve. Master and be able to advocate, as you were saying, advocate for yourself and advocate for the companies and so forth. Or have an advocate. And most times like firms don't do that. I remember when I was sitting down with a younger architect who was relocating from. From the office he was and decided to start job hunting. He was moving out of state, was job hunting and he was a senior associate at our firm. And none of the conversations that were ever had with any of the firms that he was interviewing with talked about positions beyond project architect, project manager type thing. And it there are, and I will say that there are those corporate firms that probably have those structures, but a lot of times you're not working for a corporate firm or there's less corporate firms like the big ones, the AECOMs, the Smith groups, the things like that, the big firms that have those kind of corporate structures. Otherwise you're working with a firm that maybe if it's corporate, you know, we're used the big old air quotes there, it's going to be somewhere around about like 30, 35, 40 people kind of thing. And that they just say is S Corp owned by us and you're part.

[A]

Yeah. Partnership.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Yeah. I mean so the other thing that I will throw in there is that there are those corporate positions in corporate firms, but there are also a lot of politics and that may not be only in those firms as well. Like medium sized firms probably have that as well. And that comes into the equation when it comes to achieving those goals and moving into different titles. There's really weird periods of time between those kinds of elevations on the ladder. Right. It's like they seem very random. I mean and usually they're like a minimum of three years from one position to the next and demonstrating for a pretty long period of time that you are already doing those things for that whatever that period is, call it a year before you are even considered to be elevated into the position that you are already responsible for.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Doing the things of that position.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And this is because of this is the way it's always been inside of this profession. Right. And it's very difficult to justify the low entry wages. When you think about this big picture and how much money people are spending on school. School has gotten way more expensive, obscene than than when I was a student. Right. I Went to a state school. It was so cheap. It was incredible. I. And so like super fortunate, privileged. Call it what you, whatever you want. Everybody who was in my class was also super fortunate and privileged. Right. So it wasn't like I found a loophole. It was the, it was close to home. I was paying in state tuition. It was super cheap. I want to say, man, I want to say it cost me like $2,500 a year to go to school. Not including materials. Right. Architectural, model, building, all the supply. That cost a lot of money and that probably didn't count books or anything. But all that was additional expenses. But at the same time, that's crazy cheap compared to what we're talking about nowadays.

[B]

How much did you just say?

[A]

I want to say 2,500 a year.

[B]

2,500.

[A]

That's what I just want to say. It's been a while, Cormac, so I'm.

[B]

Trying to see if it actually has.

[A]

When I could be off by not. I'm definitely not off by a factor of ten. Okay.

[B]

Because. No, you're, you're okay. So I was like, that sounds very familiar to what I paid. So as a full time undergraduate in state, student at Auburn for the years that I had started was 22, 2,250 bucks.

[A]

I feel bad even bringing these numbers up because.

[B]

Well, because, because I just, because I just looked at Auburn. So this is in state, you know, fees, all of that other stuff, it's 32,960. That is obscenely the huge jump. Yeah, it's a huge jump in.

[A]

Yeah. Per year.

[B]

Now. Now like tuition itself, according to this, tuition itself is basically 12,700 and something. And so if you want to do apples to apples comparison, but still a roughly around a $12,250 jump of just pure tuition in the years of the late 90s to now. And you know, you look at that and you're like, oh, that's not incredibly bad. If you talk about inflation and everything else, even though it is incredibly bad, but because you're also layering on all of the other fees and it ending up being the, the $32,000. I mean that's still, it's just, it's insanity that. And so the back to your question is like, how can you afford it in the kind of like the entry level salaries that you get it. It's kind of hard. Which is why you have all of the, the current generation of, of architecture students or just college students in general who are saying, well, how can I afford home, my own house, and all of this other stuff. If I want to live on my own, I've got to have like 15 roommates and all of these other things. And they're not wrong. Yeah, sadly, they're not wrong.

[A]

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[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I want to say it's around 100k in student loan debt that, that we have and like, I kind of doubt that that'll even ever get paid off. Like, I don't.

[B]

Can.

[A]

I know, can I.

[B]

Can I go ahead and admit to you that, you know, 25 years into my career, I'm still chipping away at.

[A]

My student and man, people feel like this super awesome liberation when they make that last payment. But yeah, we're not anywhere close to that. And, and, and so for somebody who, who has this listener says that they've never taken out student loans before. And so that even there it's like how, how do you justify. Well, yeah, there's a lot of, there's a lot of things you can do to reduce those costs through scholarships.

[B]

You could seek out scholarships and things like that.

[A]

But I would also look at completely different paths to licensure than going to school to do it. Right. There are states where you don't have to get that degree. You can, you can work for it basically. Right.

[B]

So I, I told you the story of my friend in Maryland who had started architecture school but then had to drop out, start had a family early and stuff and needed to just, you know, drop out and work. Ended up working in the profession. Maryland requires that you work under a licensed architect for 10 years and then you can basically you qualify for the path of license licensure through apprenticeship, which there's nothing wrong because he's one of the, he's probably one of the best architects, project managers and architects that I know because he worked under a multitude of different project managers and principals and things like that and sort of developed, learned from them the good habits, decided to not learn their bad habits and basically developed his own style and people love working with him. And it's just, it's a great, honestly, it's a great path forward.

[A]

I mean didn't we that what John Baker.

[B]

Exactly. Thank you.

[A]

President of vancar talked about on just recently.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's how John Baker got his as well. And not only to become a principal at a very large prestigious firm, but also the president of NCARB and didn't go the traditional route. So.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I, I was thinking also back to another. Go ahead.

[B]

Well I was just going to ask how many states wise. How many states offer that? That's one question. But firm wise, how many firms hire un. I don't want to use the word uneducated but non degreed architects or non degreed architectural professionals that are on the track for licensure but decide to go a different route. I mean very rarely do you see that they could. And so that's another thing that there's a stigma behind that as well.

[A]

I'll tell you in I visited a firm in my locale and just to check it out and meet people. But, but the idea there, what I heard from them was that they actually hire people who are technically oriented, have no background in architecture at all, train them and they're doing really well because they, they really understand the role that they're filling and what they're adding to that firm. And they tend to stay there for quite a long time as well. Because you really become kind of a linchpin when you are that. That person in the firm now you may get pigeonholed to doing that kind of work, you know. So I, I think there's probably trade offs there too, but it's still a viable alternative.

[B]

Agree with you. Because I'm thinking about my first internship was with a firm in Montgomery, Alabama. And they, when I was working with them, I learned under their draftsmith. You know, I learned how to do my job under their draftsmen. And their draftsmen were not registered architects or things like that. I'm sure they probably could have if they wanted to, but they were the ones who were leading all of the, basically the documentation efforts and they were the ones who, they knew their stuff.

[A]

They were acting as project architects.

[B]

Yeah. And senior project architects at that. And they were the ones who. There was nothing that I honestly learned. I mean, I can't say that I was going to say there was nothing that I learned from the architects there. I learned plenty from the architects there. But when it came to my technical knowledge and my drafting prowess and all of that other stuff that I was learning from them, I learned from them. Like the draftsman in the.

[A]

In.

[B]

We don't even do that anymore. And to be quite honest with you, I, I don't understand that either. I mean we've got like high paid architects who are doing production work. And it was interesting is with the project that I have, the one in the Middle east, we didn't have enough people to do this. So we actually farmed out some of our production work to one of these production companies that oversees production companies. And not only were they, we had an army of people at the half. Like just not even half the cost. I mean less than half the cost of what it was for. Like one architect could pay for five draftsmen. I don't know where we went, why we went this way, but anyway.

[A]

Well, I mean it just builds on this kind of alternative pathway idea. I do want to propose another way to go and this. I'm going back to our conversation with Michael Ehrman, who teaches at Virginia Tech. And part of our conversation with him that I remember was talking about the difference between generalists and specialists. And this was kind of building on a conversation that I had with him on my other podcast where we really talked about that topic specifically. So I'LL put notes, I'll put these in the show notes. But I pulled a quote from a conversation with him and I don't know if you remember Michael's path, but he really went into acoustics, right? He became an acoustician. He kind of shared that story of working with Raphael Vignoles, the architect, but also the firm, right. Because he was, he just, he was the one answering the phone that day and having the conversation with him. It was a funny, funny story. But. But so really, I mean, Michael's point of view is on expertise, right? Like to really niche into something. And then because you niche into something, you're the go to person for that and you can actually, because you are the go to expert, then you can actually be more valuable, seen as more valuable, let's put it that way, right? Because not everybody has your expertise. There are less experts in that particular thing. And he said it was freaking awesome to focus on my strength. I'm pretty good at physics and I wanted to combine physics and architecture and I became an architectural acoustician. And this was like a really wonderful career. And it opened up so many doors for. It opened up so many doors so much earlier than it would have been open to me otherwise. And so, you know, this idea suggests that specializing in a niche creates opportunities for you and not that not specializing in niche won't create opportunities for you either if you are a go getter. Like, if you are a serious, like, I know, I know people like this who are just kind of, kind of entrepreneurial minded and maybe not really specific in their expertise, but I think this is a great way to accelerate career advancement and command a higher salary sooner if you really are willing to focus on something so intently from the get go. I wasn't willing to do that myself.

[B]

You know, and you say that and that's, that's very interesting because I, I can, I look at my own career as an example of that where I was a generalist. In fact, I noticed was. Why would I say was I am a generalist. I mean there are, I do work in specialty projects, but I am not the subject matter expert on say the programming effort and things like that. But you know, yeah, I will be able to roll any program into a building envelope and it become a successful building or like successful project and things like that. Because that's just. I always jokingly say, give me any building and I can do a blindfolded kind of thing. And we're talking about like the building building and not like the programs and things like that. Where you know, depending on the type. So like early on in my career I guess I was because we were doing recreational and K through 12 and then I did K through 12 for a long time. But where I'm going with all of that is that I've seen people in my firm, in other firms that are the specialists that advance their careers quicker and faster than, than I did than I have because they're a specialty. So they become that subject matter expert, that sought after person. I'm somebody who's building envelopes or I'm somebody who does specializes in allied health type buildings or lab buildings or so and so so on and so forth. Right. And so then you become that specialized person that people seek out and go after whereas the generalist sometimes just gets overlooked. But they're like, oh, they don't know anything about this building or that building and don't think about it in that particular way. And so it's great that you bring that up because it's one of these things that I always talk to now that I've, now that I'm teaching, I have talked about like alternative careers or specializations or generalists and things like that with them because they're asking me, it's just like, well, what is it that you do? Or what is it shit that what is it that I should do? Kind of thing. And just having these conversations about whether or not like hey, what is your goal? What is what? Like what is the path? And I, I said this, I was like, I know this sounds cheesy. And I said this to somebody the other day as I know this sounds cheesy. It's like that when they ask you the questions, where do you see yourself in five years? Where do you see yourself in 10 years? You really honestly should ask yourself that question. Like do ask that question of yourself before somebody else does. Try to figure out where it is that you really are going. Because this, because of the way that this profession is becoming. Do you want to be a technology expert within the field where you may not be working on a specific project but you'll be working kind of globally with all the different projects to implement workflows and best practices and things like that to the fact that I specialize in say healthcare planning? And so that's what you're going to be doing is healthcare planning. You may not be working on the building envelope or things like that, but you have a huge role in the success of a building. If it's healthcare building or something like that. I'm just throwing examples Out. But, but you will also probably be the one where they're putting you as a principal in front of somebody instead of somebody that has the same amount of years experience that is just a generalist who doesn't really know the same aspect of like that specific building.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Does that make sense?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, totally. It's hard, I think to choose that early on. Right. I think part of it is working for a while maybe identifying holes or areas where there's a lack of expertise and then finding ways to become that person in your firm or in your region. And I say region because maybe there's like I know architects who have left, quote, unquote, an architecture firm to really create a firm that specializes in acoustics, for example, and then they're a consultant to all of the architects in that region when it comes to that specialty. Right. So. Or theaters. Right. Performing arts theaters. If, if you want to learn everything there is about theaters and acoustics and rigging and all of those things. Right. Like then you're going to be working on every other architects performing arts theaters in that area and beyond. Right.

[B]

So you've worked with, you've worked on projects that have performing arts theaters and I've worked on projects that have performing arts theaters. And I am not a subject matter expert in performance arts.

[A]

No, you're a building architect. And then there's these specialties that exactly bring in to. And you learn a lot and they are invaluable on those projects.

[B]

Absolutely. Will. Very rarely will we do projects like that that we don't bring in the subject matter experts for that for those things because yeah, we want a high performance building. Okay, send in Cormac. Do we want a high performance building that is also a like high tech performance art thing? Send in Cormac and the theater guy.

[A]

And your reputation's on the line right there. Right. Because you, you don't have that deep knowledge in that subject. Right. And so of course you're going to augment your firm's performance with that so that you can deliver the perfect project.

[B]

Right, Exactly.

[A]

In air quotes. But. But that's the idea.

[B]

Exactly. And that, and, and that's the thing is like, and that was the conversation that I was having with them is thinking about their career as specialties, but not just exactly like the conversation that you were having with, with Michael. And in fact I remember the conversation that we were having and, and I kind of rolled my eyes at the kind of his shrugging, shrugging off of.

[A]

The generalist because listening to this. So he's shrugging right back at you.

[B]

Totally fine, Michael, totally fine. And it, and it really was about the fact that it. So many times people kind of discount the, the role, the roles and responsibilities of the generalist, the one who's the building architect. But in turn it shouldn't be one of these things there. It's kind of an us against them. It's the do you want a successful building? You have to have all of them. And that was one of the things that, you know, in fact, actually the one of the reasons why the conversation came up was because somebody was questioning why we are doing this project as a group project in, in class. And I basically sat down, I told him, like, there is no project that you will ever do in your career, that you are the one and only responsible person for this. It doesn't matter if you are a sole practitioner. You will have other people that you are going to be working in a group, in a team setting to be able to do. And so if you want a successful building, you have to learn how to work together with people. Right.

[A]

Did you get the temperature in the room when you said that? Like what was the general response? Was it, was it like, oh yeah, I love working with people on project or was it like, seriously?

[B]

Oh no, no, the, the. It was it. It started with the students basically saying, asking that question and then before I even had a chance to respond saying, by the way, I hate working in groups and I think it is stupid that we're doing this because we're supposed to be learning architecture. And I'm like, yeah, yes and no. Like, you know, like, and then kind of like philosophize about the greater whole of like how you achieve really successful buildings. There's not one single architect that they could identify with or project of that was not done by a group.

[A]

Yeah, I think I feel like we've identified like three potential strategies. Right. Like the one is don't pursue the traditional path of school to become an architect. You can still become an architect in certain locations through the apprenticeship model.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The other option was like find a school that's not like one of these name and lights. Like, yeah, the name recognition of school, like it's marketing. The higher priced schools you hear more about because they're spending more money on marketing. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, and honestly like those schools, like I don't know what your experience is, but my experience is like nobody cares what school you went to in the firm. And maybe that's because of the firms I've worked in. It could be But I'm sure there are some firms that it matters a lot too. But there are a lot of firms that don't care at all and they just want good architects. And then the third, the third, the third thing is specializing, right? To, to advance, to earn more sooner and, and potentially have a different set of opportunities in front of you.

[B]

So I had a friend of mine who worked for a starchitect and that starchitect was also the one of the. How the Harvard Graduate School of Design has kind of like the rotating visiting deans and things like that. This particular firm, some of the firm principals were that, that visiting dean. And so they had a lot of, of Harvard graduates, you know, on staff. And I remember catching up with him several years later and they've done like, he had done a lot of high profile projects and things like that. And I'm like, well, tell me what it's like to work with all of these Harvard grads. And he's just like, I'd love to tell you what it's like to work with Harvard grads. And no offense to the Harvard grads out there right now, but this is his take on this was he goes, I would love to tell you what it's like to work with them, but they don't work. So I'm the one doing all of the work.

[A]

And sorry, sorry, not sorry is what I just heard.

[B]

Sorry, not sorry. But I mean he was, he was sort of bitter. He's just like, he's like, man, we've done all of this schooling, you know, we do have a top 10 school and nobody respects us. Everybody thinks that we're just some lowly southern school. And all of these people with this big name, big money degree comes in and they don't know half of what we know. And I'm teaching them or I'm showing them or I'm doing it for them because they're not doing it, those kind of things. And, and I'm 100% on board with the idea that you just threw out there. It's like, it's honestly in my opinion and there's people out there who probably don't agree with this, but I think you, by the nature of you saying this and also by the nature of you and I going to lowly schools, lowly state schools, I truly believe that it is not the degree, it is the person. And if you want to be that hard charging person in the profession, it is not going to be the degree, it is going to be what you are willing to Learn in school what you're willing to learn out of school and what you're willing to do to promote yourself and be your champion and things like that in the learning and the specialization and the generalization and all of those things. Right. It is not the degree.

[A]

I'll add a little bonus to that, which is, you know, we've. We've talked about this with. With various guests about this idea of entrepreneurship. I mean, you just talked about if you're willing to work your butt off, you may not want to work your butt off for somebody else.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It kind of depends if you want to become a licensed professional or not, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you do, then you do need to work for somebody for a certain amount of time, and they sign off on your hours for you to get those AXP hours and all those different categories and get the superv stuff. But I think once you've achieved licensure or registration, right, then go start your own architecture business with a different business model so you are not shackled to these salary positions that exist.

[B]

Totally agree with you every time. And you and I have talked about this, in fact, even on one of the episodes we talked about this, where when we said, what would you do differently if, like, you started your own firm or something like that, and it was in the vein of, like, you were talking about, like, the software implementation and how it would, like, change your workflows and it'd be very. All of these other things, it would be very different before. Exactly. And those are the things, like, the more that I learn, even to this day, the more that I learn, the more I evolve in the way that I have my own management skills, my. The way that I do management with people. And sometimes I'm thinking, oh, yeah, I'm pretty decent at this. And then sometimes I'm realizing that there is so much more room for improvement. And so I'm always evolving and learning. And those are the things that if you're willing to do things like that, you know, and especially if you're going out on your own, that usually the people who go out on their own want to do something different from the status quo, the norm that they see that they're like, whether it's an injustice of, like, this isn't the way you're supposed to manage people or projects or clients. Let's do it this way, you know, and they go out and they become very successful at basically being kind of the. The punk architect. Right.

[A]

Going back to the beginning of the.

[B]

Episode, going back to the Pinky salad days, Exactly.

[A]

You can start a firm called Salad Days, Punk Rock Architecture.

[B]

Yeah, I like.

[A]

But that is. And to me, it's really about not doing the same thing in a different place. It's doing something different. It's doing it differently. Bringing something different to the table. Not only will you be differentiated amongst the other firms that you're competing against by doing that, but you'll probably have a completely different clientele that pays you in a very different way if you choose a different business model. And, and you don't have to be kind of compared to how everybody else is doing it. And that continual competition of, you know, what I would call race to the bottom. Right? It's like, can you charge less than, than this other firm? Right. And you don't want to be in that position all the time. Right. Like, you can always, somebody can always charge less. I guarantee you, until that number is zero, they can always charge less. And it's crazy, but, but they do it. And our profession is really bad at that. Like they, this is.

[B]

We are really bad at that. And especially there are those sole practitioners when they leave bigger firms and they go out there and it's just like, well, you know, I'm going to be more competitive by volume, so I'm going to charge less and do more. Like, is that right? It's like, do you really want to do that? You know, and then there's those. It's just like, you know what? I'm going to do less, but I'm going to innovate more. I'm going to do. So I'm going to do it completely different than the way that other people have been doing it. Just because it doesn't make sense the way that people are doing it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Anything else that you can think of for this? I think, I think that was like, total, a lot of rambling and not very structured, but I think there was kind of four different big ideas in there. I think this is a really tough position to be in because this person has stepped back and is really asking the right questions.

[B]

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

[A]

And just saying like, okay, look at what salaries are. Starting salaries are. 30 to 50k school basically is going to be 81 to $225,000 in debt when you get out. You're going to be making payments for a very long time if you follow that formula. So there is a reckoning, I think, to be had here. I mean, it's kind of everybody should be stepping back. The AIA should be looking at this. NCARB should be looking at this because this is, this is the value of an architect. This is a profession wide issue. And to me I think these are some huge red flags when it comes to this.

[B]

Yeah. And I'm curious of what the AIA or what NCARB or what NAB can do to really influence the tuitions. Because if you'd be quite honest with you, I mean most of that like me looking at, looking up Auburn's current tuition, that's just general tuition, that's not even architecture school. And then throw, throw architecture school on top of that and you're paying a little bit extra on that. And so it's, it's even, it's even more just like how schools do business because now they're doing business not necessarily to educate, but to, for business. Yeah, yeah, captivate.

[A]

And I think though that there's, the discussion is at the professional level, at the firm level and the fees and the value to society and those kinds of things because like there are definitely students looking at this and saying that doesn't work, I'm not doing that. Even though they would have been an incredible architect. Right. And so the profession is missing out on those. To me, that's just sad that that happens. But it's pretty obvious when you look at those numbers that it does not pencil out. Right. So you have to do something drastically different. And I do kind of wish there was a bigger working on the profession kind of a discussion around this kind of a thing. I don't see that happening though. And I'll tell you, there are more than enough graduates out there. There are too many people, I would argue in this profession those salaries will continue to be low when there's this much supply of people to take those places. At those low starting salaries in firms, there's not enough demand. And so there's just too many graduates who are hungry to get those jobs and are having to live in the basement at their parents house until who knows when to just be able to afford to work. Which is crazy.

[B]

I, I'm a little flabbergasted because I just looked up the tuition of the school that I'm teaching at and I was thinking, oh, that that has to be a more affordable school than say the University of Michigan, which would be comparable. It isn't. It is. It isn't. It is. It's equally expensive, if not more expensive than Auburn is and that we grew.

[A]

Up in the days of everybody had to go to university. Right?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I don't see that happening anymore. Like that's not happening as much. But, but we, because we do have this huge shortage in labor. Right. And, and I think it maybe is starting to become a viable alternative to say, go to a trade school, go to community college, go to these things, earn, start earning earlier, don't accrue student debt. And at the same time, like there definitely still is this major push to go to become a white collar knowledge.

[B]

Worker, but there's, there's still the mindset so that, like I said, there's the shift in the mindset of, of the firm and the profession, let's just say profession, that the tradesmen isn't as valued as they were. We're having. We are having.

[A]

Can I just raise my hand here and say, what do you do when you've got a, a plumbing blockage in your sewer pipe? What do you do? Do you call an architect and ask them to drop some plans of how to fix this or do you call the person who's actually going to come fix it? Like there's, there's. Yeah, there's like, like that is, that's just an easy way to pull up an example.

[B]

I totally agree with you. But I mean, and if you think.

[A]

Parents aren't pushing people to go into the trades or.

[B]

When you, when you started in this profession and you were working for firms, did those firms have draftsmen?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Do those firms still have draftsmen?

[A]

Yes, but it's a very small number. And it's actually mostly what I would call kids, you know, young professionals who are technologically savvy, who don't have experience, but they are, they are building models. They're building, they're, they're drawing, but they don't know what they're drawing. Like the people you're talking about is a different category.

[B]

So here's the thing because let's think about this. The majority of firms out there in this profession do not have draftsmen in the way that we used to have draftsmen in the past.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So now we have a college educated, deeply, probably deeply in debt individual doing the same things as a draftsman was doing. Yet because of the way that their degree was, it was more focused on a multitude of different things and not specifically about the creating technical documents or creating specifications or things like that in the, the, the draftsmen that we had, that, that I learned from, they were so specialized in being able to deliver the just tight, really coordinated documents, knew what they were doing, knew how to use the software, knew how to understand all of the materials and the details and things like that, and just Put it together, because that was their specialized focus. They spent a lot less money learning how to do that. That was their career. And. And instead we've said, okay, well, we're gonna, like, give that to our young architects. And there are young architects start getting disillusioned in the way that they're being used in the profession because, oh, I'm just going to be doing construction documents. I want to design, I want to do this, I want to do that, I want to do planning, I want to. All of these other things that they want to do. And you and I have talked about this so many times about the misuse of us in the profession because of the way that we're either not willing to adopt technology or not willing to adopt different practices and things like that. And that is something that, you know, not only, obviously we've been talking about, like, these different pathways and stuff, but it's just also like, trying to create or recreate that old mindset of there are people who specialize in certain things and that you become more efficient when you have all of those specialized people, rather than just a series of generalists that weren't really trained for this or that, but sort of got a, like a little bit of smattering of knowledge across the board.

[A]

It's like being thrown into the deep end. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Learning on the job. Yeah, for sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Versus. Versus being the most experienced person.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Well, I think we beat this one to death. I. I do have a bonus content, if any. I had a birthday.

[B]

You did.

[A]

I am waiting for you to sing.

[B]

Yeah, you had a birthday.

[A]

We all have them. Everybody has them. Get over it. Or you totally sound like an architect or.

[B]

Happy birthday. What do you want to cook? Hold on.

[A]

I do. I do want a cookie.

[B]

The cookies in the mail.

[A]

Oh, yeah, I know where that. So. So maybe in a year I'll get a cookie.

[B]

Maybe in a year or so you might get a cookie.

[A]

Maybe.

[B]

I'm going to. You can start calling me cookie boy.

[A]

I know you're. You're. You're way older than me, but.

[B]

Wow. Way older. I believe that. I believe that our. That we start with the same number.

[A]

In what, the decade we were born?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah, we. We do. And. And age, I guess you're saying. Yes. So it's. It's interesting somebody said that now, like, I, like, I could actually, like, be way more comfortable with my place in the world of just, like, being. And I'm curious to ask you if you have once you turned the corner of 50 years old once you started going downhill because all those years going.

[B]

Up, once you hit the summit, now.

[A]

You'Re going down, now you're going down. Um, I mean, have you, have you. Now that you've, you can look back for, for quite some time after, after hitting that milestone, can you, can you notice any difference? I'm just curious, you know, what, what observations you've had.

[B]

Yes, it. I. In I've. What I noticed mostly is not the I don't give a damn attitude, but it's, you know what, I've done this long enough that I don't need to stress over this, that I don't need to worry about it so much, that it is what it is and it's a cliche.

[A]

That's what it is.

[B]

It. Well, I mean it's just to me in funny enough, and maybe I'm just that late bloomer, but it took me this long to start to really be more self reflective, more introspective and start to really think, okay, what is really most important to me, I, I admire and appreciate those people who have done this so much earlier than I did, but I've honestly gotten to that point and, and this is just, maybe this is the nature of being a Gen Xer where it's just you're always doing it for yourself. You're just not doing it for yourself. You're doing it yourself and you're just doing it and you're doing it and you're doing it and you'd never really stop to actually think about it. And then you start to get to this point where you're just like, wait, why haven't I stopped to think about it? Why haven't I stopped to ask myself these questions? And I finally started to stop and think about it and ask myself those questions. And so honestly, getting to this age, I finally, or I, I feel like I've turned the corner where I'm like, oh, you don't always have to do it yourself, that you, there are people. And so if you would have had that conversation that I always kind of refer to with a friend of yours, a friend of ours in, in the bus at the Chicago AIA convention where we were talking about and kind of complaining about the youngsters, about the youngsters and stuff. And if you would have asked me back then, it's like, man, you just nose to the grindstone, boot, pull yourself up by the bootstraps, you just gotta work, work, work, work, work, and you gotta outwork the next word and all that other stuff. And that was the bad that was like, my bad habit. Right?

[A]

It was your programming.

[B]

Yeah. And. And I got to the point where I'm like, you know, maybe we're the ones doing it wrong. Maybe we're the ones. And so when I started to, like, realize that, like, if you. If you and I would have had this conversation when we started this podcast 12 years ago versus having this now, I would have given you a completely different answer. I would have probably said no. I just still keep working my butt off and all of this other stuff, and. And now it's like, click, more, faster. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

It's interesting. I. I really do feel like leading up to this, maybe over the last. I would just almost a year.

[B]

At.

[A]

Least the last nine months, you know, I've had some major events happen in my life, and I have a very different perspective like you are talking about than I did even a year ago.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm questioning a lot of things, and I wouldn't call this a midlife crisis. Maybe it is, but it doesn't feel like a crisis to me. First of all, I don't feel the need to go buy a Porsche or anything, but I definitely am reevaluating a lot of things. It's interesting. It's interesting to think about how, like, this, to me, feels like a turning point. And I don't know where I'm going. Right. And I. I'm not scared about that. I'm like, it's fine. But I bring it up just to. I. I don't know how normal that is. It's probably normal. Like you're saying, like, it's. It's. You felt that too. And. And it is just like, there's a bit of a slowing down, but there's other things that are accelerating. There's other things where I'm like, oh, like, I've been doing this wrong. Right. Or I've been doing this. I'm going to do more of this. You know, I. I just feel like there's just a lot of things where I'm take. I'm doing that survey that you were doing. Right. And. And thinking about things more deeply rather than just react that. That. That to me is like, that needs to go away because we need. If it feels right, it is right. Like that to me. Like, it's. It's really a thing where it's like, hell, yes or no?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

If it's a maybe, that's a no. Right. And there's only so much time to do all the things that I want to do. Right. And so I really have to be discerning about the things that I say yes to. So. So these are all the things kind of tumbling around in my head as I've. As I've, well, you know, done another revolution on the odometer.

[B]

Exactly. Because, you know, you think about these things and this is. I'm sure this is where you're at. It's like you start to think about one. You think about all the things that you've done in your life, people you've met, the life you've lived kind of thing, and then it's kind of this self reflection of why did I feel like that was more important than this? Why did I prioritize this over that? You know, in sometimes it's not say necessarily living in regret, but it is. Why did you choose the things that you chose and why is it that, you know, you did this over that? And those are some of the things that I look at and I'm just like, man, was that really as important as it was? Why did I. Those kind of things and.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I think it's healthy to do that. I mean, it isn't a midlife. My midlife crisis. Because, I mean, I never again, like you said, I didn't feel like I was in crisis. I was just starting to say, why did I do some of the things that I did? Like, why did I do some of. Choose some of the things that I chose? And just kind of got a little bit more kind of philosophical about it just to kind of like understand. It's like. So. Because it's like it. Is this where I really want to keep going or do I want to do something different? What is more important?

[A]

Does it still serve me the way that it does?

[B]

Exactly, exactly.

[A]

Because I think there's a lot of things like that where it's like, you just do it because you've done it. I mean.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

We talked about this with firms and the way that they operate. Right? Yeah, we. We all have that in us as well. Right. And. And it's like just sit back and notice if that is still serving you in a good way or not. It's not like, move on.

[B]

Why do it?

[A]

Let it go.

[B]

Exactly, yeah.

[A]

Why do it.

[B]

Yeah. Well, so with all of that, I would like to say happy birthday.

[A]

Thank you, sir. It's an honor and a privilege to have another one.

[B]

I'm pretty sure I did send you a pretty sarcastic text on the day of.

[A]

You did?

[B]

Because it wouldn't be a birthday wish if it wasn't from me. If it wasn't sarcastic.

[A]

True. True. All right, well, thanks, man. Talk to you soon.

[B]

Yep.