Archispeak Podcast #353 - "Architecture Students are Screwed"
Hosts: Evan Troxel & Cormac Phalen
Date: December 5, 2024
Episode Overview
Evan and Cormac dig into the stark realities of architectural education and early careers, prompted by a listener's question about the sustainability of pursuing architecture given sky-high tuition costs and persistent low entry-level salaries. With their trademark candor and humor, the hosts discuss how generational differences, firm structures, pathways to licensure, and specialization all shape the contemporary landscape for students and emerging professionals. The episode also dips into industry nostalgia, alternative career strategies, and the existential questions that come with decades in the field.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Salad Days & Generational Shifts
- The episode opens with a playful reference to "Salad Days," both the idiom and the DC punk documentary, setting a tone of nostalgia and generational reflection.
- Cormac reminiscences about music from his youth and how students today are unfamiliar with certain historical architectural icons and references (e.g., the Pompidou Centre, Richard Rogers vs. Renzo Piano).
- (03:19)
Cormac: “Anytime you ask us a question, whether it’s like an architect or a music or something like that, we’re not going to know the answer.” - (04:23)
Cormac: “If he's doing them in the Baltimore, D.C. area, we end up being his architect… his local people to do the real work.”
- (03:19)
2. Listener Question: Education Costs vs. Salary Prospects
- The core topic is spurred by a listener considering a 3-year master’s program costing between $81k–$225k.
- The hosts weigh the feasibility of such investment given entry-level architecture salaries.
- (06:23)
Cormac: “Here’s the funny thing is I’m not sure any of it really makes sense.”
- (06:23)
Salary Reality Check
- Entry level salaries are typically $40k–$50k, with geographic and firm type variations. Major cities might pay more, but cost of living offsets gains.
- Online sources (e.g., Google AI) give inflated numbers ($100k+), which the hosts debunk as “so, so wrong.”
- (08:41)
Cormac: “Google, you couldn’t be any more wrong.” - (09:46)
Cormac: “ZipRecruiter… entry level architect salary is $40,529. And in a way that seems more legit.”
- (08:41)
The Debt Trap
-
The hosts compare their own college costs from the 1990s (~$2,500/year) to contemporary tuitions upwards of $32k/year at public universities, not including architecture’s extra fees.
- (17:16)
Cormac: “In-state, you know, fees, all of that, it’s $32,960. That is obscenely the huge jump.”
- (17:16)
-
Many students, hosts included, expect to be paying off student loans for decades.
- (20:44)
Cormac: “Can I go ahead and admit to you that, you know, 25 years into my career, I’m still chipping away at my student…”
- (20:44)
3. Firm Culture: Advancement, Opaqueness, and Structural Issues
- Advancement opportunities and transparency are inconsistent. Most firms lack clear paths; longevity or hard work don't guarantee progression.
- (11:13)
Evan: “None of that exists in most firms. Right.” - (12:33)
Cormac: “This is the first time in the 25 years that I’ve been working that I’ve actually had that kind of defined goal setting.”
- (11:13)
- Corporate or large firms may offer more defined ladders, but can come with office politics and gatekeeping.
- Smaller firms typically have flatter structures and less bureaucracy but fewer growth opportunities.
The Wage Stagnation Problem
- With so many architecture graduates and a limited number of available positions, firms keep wages low. Recent grads report having to live at home or with multiple roommates to get by.
4. Alternative Paths to Architecture
Apprenticeship & Licensure by Experience
- Certain states (e.g., Maryland) allow licensure via apprenticeship, bypassing the degree. Examples are given of respected architects who followed this route, including John Baker of NCARB.
- (22:30)
Cormac: “He’s probably one of the best architects... because he worked under a multitude of different project managers and principals.”
- (22:30)
Non-traditional Roles and Tech Paths
- Some firms value skilled non-degreed staff specializing in technical production or technology, suggesting alternative directions for entering the profession.
- (23:28)
Evan: “They actually hire people who are technically oriented, have no background in architecture at all, train them, and they’re doing really well…”
- (23:28)
Importance (and Underappreciation) of Generalists and Specialists
- Specialists (e.g., acousticians, lab planners) can accelerate their careers and command higher salaries more quickly by becoming indispensible experts, while generalists may be overlooked.
- (27:57)
Evan: “[Michael Ehrman]…specializing in a niche creates opportunities for you... You’re the go-to person for that and you can actually…be more valuable.”
- (27:57)
- The balance and interplay between generalists and specialists is vital for successful teams and projects.
- (33:34)
Cormac: “If you want a successful building, you have to have all of them.”
- (33:34)
5. Questioning the Value of Name-Brand Degrees
- The hosts challenge the idea that prestigious schools open more doors, sharing anecdotes where on-the-job skills matter more than diplomas.
- (37:46)
Cormac: “[My friend]’s like, ‘I’d love to tell you what it’s like to work with Harvard grads... but they don’t work. So I’m the one doing all of the work.’”
- (37:46)
- Evan asserts that most architecture firms care about performance and attitude, not the name on a degree.
6. Entrepreneurship and Ownership as a Solution
- Starting your own firm is presented as a way to potentially break free from salary and advancement stagnation.
- New tech and business models, as well as “doing things differently,” are cited as ways to add value and avoid the “race to the bottom.”
- (41:08)
Cormac: “Usually the people who go out on their own want to do something different from the status quo...the punk architect.”
- (41:08)
7. Structural Problems in the Profession
- Oversupply of graduates and slow-moving industry culture keep wages down and limit opportunities.
- The hosts call for professional bodies (AIA, NCARB, NAAB) to seriously address these systemic issues.
- (43:42)
Evan: “Everybody should be stepping back. The AIA should be looking at this. NCARB should be looking at this because this is...a profession wide issue.”
- (43:42)
8. Trades, Draftsmen, and Shifting Values
- The role of the career draftsman has vanished, replaced by indebted young professionals, and technical specialization is undervalued.
- (48:21)
Cormac: “The majority of firms out there in this profession do not have draftsmen in the way that we used to… Now we have a college-educated, deeply, probably deeply in debt individual doing the same things…”
- (48:21)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On entry-level salary expectations:
“Google AI... gives you entry-level architect in the United States is $128,756. Wherever that is, I apparently need to move.”
— Cormac (08:41) -
On old-school tuition costs vs. today:
“Full time undergraduate in-state... was $2,250 bucks... It’s $32,960 now.”
— Cormac (16:56) -
On career satisfaction:
“What I noticed mostly is not the I don’t give a damn attitude, but it’s... I’ve done this long enough that I don’t need to stress over this... I feel like I’ve turned the corner.”
— Cormac (52:19) -
On specialization:
“Specializing in a niche creates opportunities for you... And you can actually be more valuable, seen as more valuable...”
— Evan (27:57) -
On entrepreneurship as escape:
“Once you’ve achieved licensure or registration, then go start your own architecture business with a different business model so you are not shackled to these salary positions...”
— Evan (39:55) -
On changing perspective with age:
“Once you hit the summit, now you’re going down... I finally... feel like I’ve turned the corner where I’m like, oh, you don’t always have to do it yourself...”
— Cormac (52:03)
Timestamps for Important Segments
- 00:09–04:45
"Salad Days" nostalgia, generational gaps, music, and students' architectural literacy - 05:09–11:13
Listener letter: Is an $81k–$225k degree worth it? Salary realities and career payback math - 11:13–14:20
Firm hierarchy, advancement processes, and wage stagnation - 17:16–21:27
Personal stories of college costs and decades of student debt - 22:30–24:45
Alternative licensure through apprenticeship and experienced-based paths - 27:57–33:34
Specialization, generalists vs. experts, and the advantage of niche skills - 36:51–39:09
Does school prestige matter? On learning, drive, and personal growth - 41:08–46:42
Entrepreneurship and doing things differently to escape salary traps - 48:21–50:28
The loss of the draftsman, undervaluing technical specialization - 52:03–58:36
Turning 50: self-reflection, changing career philosophy, avoiding regret
Final Thoughts
This episode offers a sobering—yet hopeful—look at what it really means to enter and persist in architecture today. Evan and Cormac dispense practical advice for students and emerging professionals questioning the ROI of their education, emphasizing that the traditional, expensive degree pathway is not the only option. They urge listeners to know their goals, consider specialization, advocate for themselves, and not be fooled by industry myths about prestige or guaranteed advancement. Ultimately, this is a call to rethink career planning in architecture, and, for those further along, to reflect on what really matters—both professionally and personally.