#354 - Fighting Revit

Summary

Archispeak Episode #354 - "Fighting Revit"

Hosts: Evan Troxel & Cormac Phalen
Release Date: December 9, 2024
Description: In this episode, Evan and Cormac delve deep into the challenges and frustrations of working with Revit, one of the industry's leading Building Information Modeling (BIM) software. They explore the inefficiencies caused by large models, the impact on productivity, and discuss potential solutions to streamline workflows.

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1. Introduction to the Episode

The episode kicks off with a light-hearted conversation about the hosts' new dog and their attempts to curate the perfect playlist for him. This segment sets a relaxed tone before transitioning into the core topic of the day—Revit and its associated challenges.

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2. The Main Frustration: Revit's Inefficiency

a. Exporting Challenges

Cormac shares his recent experiences with exporting PDFs and CAD files from Revit, highlighting the time-consuming nature of the process.

• Cormac:
  "[04:43]... It takes about 20, 25, 30 minutes just for the CAD export. They were locked. It was constantly locking up the Revit."

Evan questions the necessity of exporting CAD files when models are already being shared, prompting Cormac to explain the client's specific requirements.

• Evan:
  "[21:26]... What would they do with the CAD that they can't do with the PDF?"

• Cormac:
  "[21:39]... They're using it for some basis of shops or something."

b. Impact on Productivity

The prolonged export times significantly reduce productivity. Evan emphasizes the hidden costs associated with these inefficiencies.

• Evan:
  "[44:21]... You can't do anything else."

• Cormac:
  "[52:18]... If you're billable at 40 hours a week, you're really technically only working 30 hours because you're waiting on your machine and the software hardware."

c. Model Size and Complexity

Cormac discusses the massive size of their Revit models, citing a single model at 2.2 gigabytes, which exacerbates the export delays.

• Evan:
  "[30:31]... it's in the cloud, I assume it is."

• Cormac:
  "[30:40]... One model was 2.2 gigs."

---

3. Root Causes of Revit Frustrations

a. Model Setup and Organizational Decisions

A critical point of discussion revolves around how the initial setup of Revit models can lead to inefficiencies. Cormac reflects on past decisions to consolidate multiple buildings into a single model, which now hinders performance.

• Cormac:
  "[31:04]... We have eight buildings and it should have been eight different models because then it would have been a little less cumbersome."

• Evan:
  "[37:54]... I cannot believe you guys decided to put multiple buildings in one file."

b. Version Compatibility and Software Constraints

The team struggles with maintaining model compatibility across different Revit versions, leading to further complications and inefficiencies.

• Evan:
  "[24:03]... One of the features of 2025..."

• Cormac:
  "[25:02]... it was far more efficient in the more current versions, but I can't upgrade them any further than what the client has."

---

4. Potential Solutions and Strategies

a. Hardware Upgrades

Evan advocates for regular hardware upgrades to improve Revit's performance, emphasizing the return on investment through increased productivity.

• Evan:
  "[48:14]... Faster computer makes a measurable difference that is totally peanuts compared to your billable rate."

b. Virtual Machines and Cloud Computing

Discussing advanced solutions, Evan introduces the concept of virtual machines to handle large Revit models more efficiently.

• Evan:
  "[54:04]... A virtualized machine is literally logging in and using a computer that sits somewhere else. It could be in a data center, making processing much faster and reducing downtime."

c. Model Segmentation

Cormac agrees that segmenting models by individual buildings could alleviate many of the issues they're currently facing.

• Cormac:
  "[32:28]... It should have been eight different models... that was the mistake."

---

5. The Hidden Costs of Poor Workflow Management

Evan and Cormac highlight the often-overlooked costs associated with inefficient Revit workflows, such as lost billable hours and increased project timelines.

• Evan:
  "[50:03]... A faster computer makes a measurable difference..."

• Cormac:
  "[52:00]... If you're billable at 40 hours a week, you're really technically only working 30 hours."

---

6. Notable Quotes

• Cormac (04:43):
  "It was taking like 20, 25, 30 minutes just for the CAD export. They were locked. It was constantly locking up the Revit."

• Evan (21:26):
  "What would they do with the CAD that they can't do with the PDF?"

• Evan (44:21):
  "You can't do anything else."

• Cormac (52:18):
  "If you're billable at 40 hours a week, you're really technically only working 30 hours because you're waiting on your machine and the software hardware."

• Evan (54:04):
  "A virtualized machine is literally logging in and using a computer that sits somewhere else. It could be in a data center, making processing much faster and reducing downtime."

---

7. Conclusion and Reflections

Towards the end of the episode, the hosts reflect on the lessons learned from their struggles with Revit. Cormac expresses regret over past decisions and emphasizes the importance of adapting workflows to better suit the demands of large-scale projects.

• Cormac:
  "[58:28]... I feel the blame."

Evan reiterates the necessity of leveraging technology and efficient workflow management to mitigate the challenges posed by complex Revit models.

• Evan:
  "[57:21]... Our people are our differentiator. They can work faster."

---

8. Final Thoughts

"Fighting Revit" serves as a candid exploration of the real-world challenges architects face with BIM software. Through their personal experiences, Evan and Cormac shed light on the inefficiencies within current workflows and advocate for proactive solutions to enhance productivity and project outcomes.

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Join the Conversation:
To continue the discussion or learn more about the hosts, visit archispeakpodcast.com.

Transcript

[A]

In this episode of Arca Speak Theater.

[B]

Arca Speak Theater.

[A]

Welcome, welcome. Well, that was a nice. Nice wake up right there. What you been doing? Cormac? Are you okay? So in. In traditional Cormac Phelan fashion, you would be listening to Suicidal Tendencies or Tchaikovsky. Yeah, we had a little musical appreciation before, and you have a wide range.

[B]

As do I. Yeah, it was interesting. So I think we've talked about this, or if we haven't talked about this, we got a new dog. And the new dog's warming up to me a little slower than our old pup, and he's over there somewhere sitting up against a wall. And so I felt like, you know, let's just play some nice peaceful music for the doggy. I'm not sure he would appreciate some of my playlists right now, and since I'm trying to keep him calm and he seems to be perfectly fine, so. I mean, it's Christmas.

[A]

Piercing violins. That's what dogs want to hear.

[B]

You know, funny enough. Funny enough, he's actually liking it.

[A]

Nice. So. So what have you been doing?

[B]

What.

[A]

What you've been up to this morning?

[B]

Helping my daughter. I know what you're asking about, and I'm going to avoid that for a second.

[A]

You're avoiding it and talking.

[B]

Talking about the good things. I. My daughter start to create a 80s playlist.

[A]

Oh, nice.

[B]

Oh, nice. She has got a fantastic.

[A]

So she's looking for recommendations or she's.

[B]

Got great playlists that she's already created for the 60s. 70s.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And she was just like, I've been listening to the 70s playlist for so long that I need to move into.

[A]

The new decade here.

[B]

She's like, I need to kind of break it up some. And she's like, I know what mom would be as telling me to play as part of my 80s playlist. Stuff that she would roller skate to and stuff like that. And she's like, I'm not sure if I should ask you, because now I'm getting into the. The 80s playlist of. Well, you could go with the Salad Days playlist that I was just talking about previous episode, or I'm looking up.

[A]

My 80s playlist because I've got one right. Right here too.

[B]

And funny enough, so we started talking about all sorts of different ones. And she's actually, it's interesting the. The bands that she had already put in there. And I. I don't know about you, but I'm always impressed at the. What my kids create as part of their playlists.

[A]

I don't. I'M not privy to that information, I can tell you that.

[B]

Well, I'm. The only reason I'm privy to it is because it's all on the. The family. The family plan of the itunes. So.

[A]

So they make. They make playlists and then share them with you or what? Because.

[B]

No, they just. They're too lazy to use. To create their own separate account. Even though I've given them the link.

[A]

To create their separate accounts actually have a family plan here. It's like all I have.

[B]

I have a family plan that they just don't use.

[A]

They ignore. So. So all of these playlists are actually under your account.

[B]

Under mine.

[A]

So your children are totally, like, poisoning the well when it comes to the Apple genius stuff or whatever.

[B]

Netflix, you name it. All my.

[A]

It's all poisoned.

[B]

All of those are poisoned. Because apparently Netflix thinks it might not be too terribly wrong that I like the Gilmore Girls.

[A]

So. You don't even set up profiles in Netflix.

[B]

I do, too. They. They have all of theirs. And here's the funny thing about that.

[A]

Even that they're so lazy.

[B]

Even that they're like, you know, I think that they're like, I just want to keep mine pure. This is the exact words that came out of my daughter's mouth. I want to keep my.

[A]

I'd rather poison yours.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

What does that even mean, keep mine pure? Like.

[B]

Like when she starts to add things to her play, like, whether it's Netflix or whatever else, it doesn't make any sense. Uncorrupted by, like, all of the other nonsense that they like right now. Apparently I'm big into Hallmark holiday movies, man.

[A]

Who isn't?

[B]

Well, that's true. But.

[A]

But, but, but, but. But I.

[B]

But. But there's just Exactly.

[A]

Exactly same.

[B]

So. Yes.

[A]

How do you allow such a thing? That's just. Okay, so. So let's name off some. Some 80s. I. I still want to talk about what you've really been doing this morning, but. Yes, but name off some of the bands that she's got in hers. And let's judge these.

[B]

So when in Rome and hers.

[A]

Slash yours.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because apparently now it's my.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Win in Realm, the Cure, Pet Shop Voice, the Cars, Tears for Fears, Crowded House, Eurasia Dexie's Midnight Runners.

[A]

Which Eurasia. Eurasia.

[B]

Erasure.

[A]

Erasure.

[B]

Erasure. Whatever. It's been a long morning. It. It is. There is one in the. Sure part of it. Eraser.

[A]

There is one there.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Do you have any. Do you have any Tears for Fears or.

[B]

Yep. I was just about to say Tears for Fears.

[A]

You got some Steve Miller band in there.

[B]

So she's got. So a lot of her Steve Miller band stuff is actually in her 70s playlist.

[A]

In the 70s.

[B]

Earliest stuff.

[A]

Yeah. What about. What about hall and Oates? You got any Air Supply or notes?

[B]

So she has hall and Oates, again in her 70s playlist because of the earlier stuff. Once in. And I think she's a lot like me on this once the bands. If the bands continue with some form of longevity into the 80s. My personal opinion, some of them suck.

[A]

And you've made that. You've made that clear.

[B]

Well, you know what's funny is she's just spring. Well, her. Her. She was just like, what's with the 80s in synthesizers? I'm like that. That's just 80s.

[A]

They were invented.

[B]

Yeah, it was just like 80s and synthesizers. That. That's literally it.

[A]

Like, incredible. Yeah, it's a beautiful thing. It's not. You shouldn't think about it any other.

[B]

Way, but, you know, she. Aha. Duran Duran, Pixies got the Depeche Mode in there.

[A]

You were. You were texting me about Violator the other day.

[B]

She. She. As much as I've suggested to her to add Depeche Mode in there, she. She says that the only song that she likes is.

[A]

Let me guess, let me guess. People Are People.

[B]

Nope. It is off of the album that I texted you the other day.

[A]

Oh, okay. Okay.

[B]

The Violator album.

[A]

Violator.

[B]

What.

[A]

What's the song?

[B]

Now I have to go to Violator.

[A]

Because now you gotta find it.

[B]

I've forgotten. It's. It's not. It's not personal. Jesus.

[A]

We'll play the. Some Jeopardy. Music here for a second.

[B]

Okay. I think she. She said sweetest perfection.

[A]

Oh, okay. It's. It's. I responded. So when you sent me that, you mentioned how we've talked about how there's great albums, right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I was just listening to kind of a breakdown of the. A Vocal Coach on YouTube who I like to watch. The charismatic voice. She's fun to watch.

[B]

Oh, yeah, Yeah. I have.

[A]

She did one on. On Smashing Pumpkins, Mayonnaise and Fan. Amazing song. Which. Which is that album.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Siamese Dream. It escaped me for a second. Is. Is just one of those albums for me.

[B]

I totally agree.

[A]

You said. You said Violator is one of those albums. And so I put it on like I was vacuuming. And so I put it on and, man, Dave Gahan's voice is incredible.

[B]

It's so good. It is.

[A]

And as you as you said, it is the sweetest thing.

[B]

Sweet. No doubt. That's you, too.

[A]

Sorry. Sorry. That's you too.

[B]

It's sweetest perfection.

[A]

Sweetest perfection. Yes. So good. It's so good.

[B]

We were. We were talking about that, and she's just like. I don't know. She's like, I. There's just songs I want to hear, and that's what she's trying to create.

[A]

Here's what ruins it for the youngsters is that is Auto tune is a thing. It's everywhere. And. And people don't realize that music in the 60s, 70s, 80s didn't have auto tune. It was like these vocal 90s, too. These vocal performances are. Are just absolutely incredible because they're not messed with with the computer. Yep.

[B]

And so funny enough, she doesn't really listen to music of her generation. She. I guess it's because of me. No, it is.

[A]

And it's because you've poisoned that. So she gets to poison your Netflix.

[B]

Well, that's true. I remember one time I was just like, wow, my daughter knows all the lyrics to Red Hot Chili Peppers. And then I was just like, oh, damn, My daughter knows all the lyrics to Red Hot Chili Peppers. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's scary.

[A]

Yeah, totally.

[B]

Because none of them are appropriate for her.

[A]

Right? It's so, so, so, so, so. Man, the 80s were great. The 80s, you. There's so much. There's a huge range in there. I mean, think about this. Think about this. Isn't this, like when Nine Inch Nails really hit the scene?

[B]

So Nine Inch Nails was late 80s.

[A]

I. I want to say, though, that, like, I want to say mid-80s. I saw recently something about Trent Reznor kind of lamenting the fact that some. Some of his stuff was 40 years old. Like, that's insane.

[B]

Well, we.

[A]

That's insane.

[B]

Didn't you and I just talk about the fact that if in two years, what you call it. The Beastie Boys.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. Is going.

[A]

Licensed to Ill. Yeah.

[B]

License to Ill. Is going to be 40 years old. And that is insanity. Just insanity.

[A]

It is. It is insanity.

[B]

I'm looking at what. I'm trying to find what they're the. Okay, so they formed in 1988.

[A]

Nine Inch Nails did.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay, so maybe it was. Maybe it was earlier.

[B]

So Pretty Hate Machine probably was. It's his essential albums. I want all the albums. That one. 1989 was a pretty hate machine.

[A]

All right, I'm looking up.

[B]

So it kind of qualifies, just like violator is 1990. So it falls out of the range of that one. But then there's music for the masses and things like that that, you know, you could.

[A]

I had music for the masses on cassette, and I remember putting it. Going on a Boy Scout trip.

[B]

Oh, gosh.

[A]

On a Boy Scout camping trip to Mount Palomar Observatory, so San Diego area. Putting that cassette in the car and playing it with. You know, I was in. There was probably six of us in this Oldsmobile because it had two bench seats, like, front and back.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So there were six of us sitting. You know, it's an early suv. It was an Oldsmobile Cutlass supreme and a giant trunk full of camping gear. And my dad was driving us down there and amongst other cars and vans. So it was a big, big group camping trip. And so car camping, right. The adults were chaperoning and cooking and doing the main stuff, and we were setting up tents and all that stuff and playing music for the masses. And my dad did not like that at all. He thought it was whiny, depressing music. And I. And he's not. He wasn't wrong. He was about it. But then I also think, like, how great it was. It was just. It's so. It's so good. I think about the Thompson Twins. I think about Howard Jones. I. You know, the Pet Shop Boys.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, these need to be on your daughter's playlist. You better be taking serious.

[B]

I've. No, no, no. I. I've. I've told her I was just like, till Tuesday. Things like that. And she's like, oh, no, I don't like her voice. The voices, Carrie song, Cindy Lopper, that. It's. So she's kind of doing a slightly different take on, like, 80s music. So it's not like the Bangles or Poppy kind of version.

[A]

It's more kind of top 40, not top 40.

[B]

I. Well, I did show her the college rock, and she's like, o. All of these. You know, that's more of kind of. I guess what she's really looking for is the college rock stuff, because that's. I told her. I was like, this is more. I was like, if I wasn't listening to the punk stuff, I was also listening to kind of the college rock stuff. You know, that's where I discovered REM which, you know, she's the only one other than me who can listen to REM but not like, I do. Like. Well, I've just been playing the Essentials, like, all last week.

[A]

I enjoy those playlists on the streaming music services that they put those together. They'll Put them together for decades or genres or all kinds of stuff. And I find those are. Those are pretty darn good. And if there's a song you don't like, just skip it. But they're pretty decent compilations, for sure. They're pretty fun.

[B]

So when I was listening to music for the masses before Violator came out, my strongest memory of that is driving through the mountains of the Black Forest when I was stationed in Germany.

[A]

Wow. Cool.

[B]

Yeah, it is.

[A]

It is very kind of. I mean, I think that those synths and those drum machines and stuff that they were using to create that album was very German.

[B]

You know, it sort of felt like that. And it's not like the German clubs were playing all that music.

[A]

Synth pop, I mean.

[B]

Oh, my God. Synth pop was like. Yeah, I, I, I wasn't necessarily. I mean, it was funny. Is like bands that I liked were synth pop, but then there was those, like. I don't know. Do you do. Do we consider new order synth pop? I don't think so.

[A]

No.

[B]

No, I was gonna say, I don't think so.

[A]

They were analog instruments. I think they might have had a drum machine here and there, but.

[B]

Yeah, but did you ever hear of a 808 state?

[A]

I've heard that term, but remember, 808.

[B]

State is a, A band.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

Kind of a house ticket band.

[A]

Ah, okay.

[B]

They did. They actually did a. An album with, With York, and it was amazing.

[A]

Nice. So I'll have to check that out.

[B]

You need to.

[A]

I'm writing it down. 808 state.

[B]

Yeah. So what have I been doing this morning? Trying to keep myself sane.

[A]

Before, before you do this.

[B]

Before.

[A]

I just have one Dave Gahan story. I actually was within like 10ft of Dave Gahan once. I didn't, I didn't do anything to, like, embarrass myself or him by asking for an autograph. Although I should have. But it was at a U2 show in southern California. I went to go see their. Was it called the Elevation tour or the all that you can't leave behind? I can't remember. It was like. But here. Yes, it's the one with beautiful day on it. Right? Like kickoff song. And that was cool because their stage was like this heart, right? It was this. If you look at it in plan view, it was this heart. And the point of the heart was the tip of it. What, like the bottom tip, if you drew the heart shape was out in the audience. But the first fans who bought general admission tickets ran down there, including myself, waited in line all day. Long to have this opportunity to get into the heart. And they only let, like, 150, 200 people inside the heart part of the stage. Everybody else was either up in the seats or out on the general floor. And I made it down there. The friend that I went with did not make it. He didn't make it in the heart, and he was pissed that I didn't come out and hang out with him on the outside. I'm like, what are you. I'm in the heart, dude.

[B]

You have no heart.

[A]

What are you talking about? I clearly had no heart, and so I got to be, like, within 10ft of all of you, too, because you could move around freely inside. You're on your feet the whole time, but you were literally, like, you could reach up and touch the edge's foot if you wanted to or whatever, if you could, if security didn't slap you down. But Dave Gahan was there at that show, and right outside of the heart as we were running in, he had all access. He'd go wherever he wanted.

[B]

Right. I hope he wasn't running in with you guys.

[A]

No, no, he could do whatever. But, yeah, black leather jacket. Right. I mean, he's just total rock star standing right there. Yeah. Yeah. So, anyway, let's get back to your story about what you actually doing today.

[B]

What Was your first U2 concert? I know we've talked about this before.

[A]

That was probably it. That was probably the first one I didn't get to go to. I didn't have the opportunity to go to earlier ones. I wasn't even a big fan before that. I mean, I started to become a fan in high school with Rattle and Hum and Joshua Tree, but not. I wasn't, like, putting out money to go to go to concerts.

[B]

We had. Yeah. High school. Joshua Tree was the first concert in Tampa that I could get to go to, which I've been to many, many.

[A]

U2 shows, and all of them just.

[B]

Yeah, me too.

[A]

Amazing. Incredible.

[B]

So never gonna. Honestly, I don't think there's. I mean, there are performances that beat the kind of. The YouTube kind of field with some smaller concerts and stuff that I've gone to, but the one in Birmingham, Alabama, where they had the opening ban. Why am I just blanked on them? I was going to say nwa, but it's not NWA with Flavor Flav. Why am I blanking on?

[A]

Isn't that nwa?

[B]

No, that's not. I'm like, that's Ice Cube, Public Enemy. Public Enemy. Thank you, Public Enemy. Wow. Blanking on that one. Anyway, and then they had a lynched Klansman, like, lower hanging from the Lower from the rafters in Birmingham, Alabama. It was amazing.

[A]

Provocative. Yeah, they do something incredible every time. And I. I would have loved to have seen them in the sphere, but I couldn't afford an 800 ticket or whatever at their recent residency in Las Vegas here. Yeah, that would have been. That would have been cool. But, yeah, not going to do that.

[B]

That's insane.

[A]

Got bills to pay.

[B]

Exactly. Yes. All right, what do we talk about? Real stuff.

[A]

I want to know what you were doing this morning. Yeah, yeah. Good stuff. Okay, so we're recording on the eve of Thanksgiving here, and just to give a little context here, no one else.

[B]

Is in the office except for me, so I had.

[A]

Keeping the musical.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Theme going here, so I had a.

[B]

Lot of RFIs and stuff to answer, and some of them require some. Some new PDFs to be made and attached. But whenever you send a PDF, you also have to send a. A cad. You know, I mean, ultimately they'll get the updated models and all that other stuff, but they want a CAD of that particular sheet. They being the client.

[A]

The client, yes.

[B]

And so you'll have a PDF of that sheet and you'll have a exported CAD of that sheet.

[A]

Not every client, right? But this.

[B]

Not every client, but this one. And that. That's just kind of the requirement. That's what we signed on for and that's what we were doing. And give it away.

[A]

Give it away. Give it away now.

[B]

Yeah. And my goodness, the it. For some reason, because I wasn't doing it, like, where I was like, you know, batch exporting or anything like that, as I was doing as I would, like, complete a sheet that I was then exporting to PDF, or I would also just go ahead and export it to CAD as well, just so I can call that sheet. Done. Send it done.

[A]

Final. Final version 5.84.

[B]

Well, really, revision. Revision, whatever. Because it's going not only to the client, but also the contractor. Oh, so it was taking like 20, 25, 30 minutes just for the CAD export. They were locked. It was constantly locking up the. No response. Revit. No response. Come on.

[A]

Why. Why are you doing CAD exports at all? Can't. Aren't. Aren't you also just giving them the model at that. At that point?

[B]

We aren't giving them the model right now. And look, there is so.

[A]

Talk about the insanity. Just let.

[B]

There is so. There's so much insanity. Yes. Are we giving them the model? Yes. Do they honestly really need a CAD not really, no. But.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And if they really needed the cad, they could export it. If.

[A]

What would they do with the CAD that they can't do with the PDF?

[B]

I so. Well, I mean, one only knows. It's just. I'm not the one that knows.

[A]

Well, you're saying it. Yeah. So you're saying it does go to the contractor. So potentially they're using it for some basis of shops or something.

[B]

I. I would. I would assume that. Yes, yes. And then specifically this one is actually the drawings that I was working on right now. They were specifically going. Because they're verifying our plot regulations, so our plot boundaries and all of that other stuff. There's these things called deviations where we are encroaching in on. Either encroaching in on. Or something else is encroaching in on our plot boundaries or we're encroaching in on something else. And though it's been approved, the encroachment, they want to have those CAD drawings so that they can update the plot regulation sheets. And so that's really what I was specifically doing. And it's monotonous, it's busy work. It's kind of. If you have the model, you have the plot regulations, you have all of the things that you're asking for and there's really no need for any of the other things. And in fact, actually they do these. They do these comprehensive NavisWorks models that have all of the different assets that are plugging into this overall development. And so each of them are already in there with their plot regulation and everything else. You know, they call it plot regulations and I just call it plot boundaries, but same thing. And, and so all of these things are already there. They already exist in the REVIT model. And then. And you can't. I mean, yeah, you can put CAT in Navis, but it's useless in comparison to pulling in your, your NWCs and all that other stuff here. Navis works files.

[A]

So while this is happening, this 20 plus minute export per sheet, you're saying basically. Right, yeah. What. What else can you do during that time? Like what does it completely take Revit down so that it's only doing.

[B]

So I can, I can't do anything in Revit, so I'm done.

[A]

Like, what version of Revit are you in?

[B]

This particular model is in 2022 and.

[A]

You don't upgrade those. For what reason?

[B]

Well, actually, for the longest time we just upgraded it and for the longest time, 2022 to 2022, we were. Yeah. So for the longest time we were in 2020 up until about two months ago.

[A]

That's right. I remember you saying you had like four different versions of Revit on your machine. Yes, 2020 to 2024.

[B]

I have 2020 through 2024 and probably will be getting 2025 not too. In the not too distant future.

[A]

One of the features of 2025.

[B]

Oh, I. Yes.

[A]

Is this, is this batch PDF export in the background, which means you can continue to work in Revit, but that's just PDFs. I'm assuming that doesn't count for DWGs.

[B]

But I mean you can still do batch exporting of DWGs and hopefully they would be doing the same thing because it's essentially using sort of the same batch file kind of thing to do that.

[A]

But I don't think you should give that credit if. Unless it's actually I. True.

[B]

I. You're right. I mean, I don't know because I don't have it on there. I haven't test driven it in fact, to be quite honest with you, because I don't even have any projects right now that are in 2024. I don't. I. I've only opened 2024 just to open it and say it's there.

[A]

Curious why you guys keep stuff in those versions. Is it because your consultants only have those versions? The owner only has that version. The contractor, like the only.

[B]

The only reason why we kept it in 2020 for so long was because our client. And then when they upgraded to 20. When they upgraded, they only upgraded to 2022. So if I brought it would. It would be far more efficient for me to be able to use these models. And they're behemoth models. They would be far more efficient to use in the, you know, more current versions. But I can't. I can't upgrade them to anything further than what the client has.

[C]

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[A]

Make this episode possible.

[C]

And now back to the conversation.

[A]

So why do you think it takes so long to export these sheets? Is it because the model is so big? Is it because you have a ton of errors in the model? Like how clean?

[B]

No, surprisingly enough, these models now are pretty. I mean, we're talking. I would say that if there's any errors in it, we're not talking anything more than like 20. But you're also talking about 200. No, no, surprisingly enough, no. Like few. As in like maybe 20. Surprisingly enough, I mean, we've, we've worked. Because one of the.

[A]

No, yeah, because one of your, one of your contract items, one of the.

[B]

Contract items is to give them a clash free model. Because, I mean, that's.

[A]

Well, does that mean error free? I mean, I, A clash isn't actually even going to be an error sometimes.

[B]

Yes. I mean, I, I may be using them interchangeably, but you know, they, and.

[A]

I mean, warnings like in revit link go, it's actually warnings, right?

[B]

We, we. We clean that everybody ignores. We clean out tons and tons and tons and tons of warnings. Tons.

[A]

Because you have to.

[B]

Because we have to.

[A]

Which, Which. So. So the reason I asked why it takes so long is a lot of times the number of warnings.

[B]

It is a direct things like this. It is a behemoth model. It is massive.

[A]

Can you give a size? Can you give a. A megabyte or a gigabyte size? Can you look it up if.

[B]

Give me a second here.

[A]

I mean, and then you kind of think about this from an initial strategy point of view, right? And so, yeah, this is like super nerdy, but this is revit stuff. And I think one of the things that people don't really think about is how much time architects spend. Like, this takes me back to the days of Photoshop's preparing to save dialog box, right? Which was back in the early versions of Photoshop because machines were so RAM limited. Like, you would be doing filters and operations to your Photoshop file, and then you would hit File save and this dialog box would pop up where it would actually convert everything that was like it was using in the RAM disk into ram. And it would say, preparing to save. And you would watch this progress bar slowly march across the screen before it was even going to literally do the command you asked it to do, which was save the file. Right. And so nowadays with this file syncing, syncing to central, but also exporting these kinds of things, they take an inordinate amount of time. A lot of it, which you can't actually automate, but a lot of it that you can. And I assume you guys aren't because you're doing it manually, like to do it overnight or something, but because you're kind of working in real time saving these sheets out one sheet at a time and saying, okay, done, check. Next. Maybe you can't automate it overnight or whatever, but it seems like, man, like, these are the kinds of things nobody thinks about when they're like, oh, I'm going to be an architect. Which means you're going to literally sit at your computer pushing buttons in this monotonous way to save and export files that take 20 plus minutes per sheet to get out. And it's like, is this really what you're getting paid for, man?

[B]

So I am trying to. I'm trying to find one of the architectural models because there doesn't even.

[A]

It doesn't even want to tell you how big they are.

[B]

It's probably like, you'll be embarrassed, but.

[A]

And it's in the cloud, I assume it is.

[B]

It's in BIM360. And so, but there I just saw one model and the one. One model was 2.2 gigs.

[A]

So if you go back in time, if you were going to do it again, and I know this is like a huge project.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Would you change the way you set up your models?

[B]

Yes. Yes.

[A]

The way that they link to each other and all that stuff. Can you talk a little bit about, like, the way you did it versus what you would do differently?

[B]

So the way that we did it, the way that we should have done it is we have eight buildings and it should have been eight different models because then it would have been a little less Cumbersome. And then the people who were assigned to them could basically assign to them and then just essentially have one. One model. So let's paint a picture. It's eight buildings. There are multiple levels of basements below the multiple levels of basements below there are there. It's all interconnected. So it's a network of mechanical rooms, storage rooms, other programs, underground city as.

[A]

Much as an above ground.

[B]

But there. But it's campus. But each building is interconnected at the.

[A]

Basement level below ground. Okay.

[B]

And so it made sense because of structure, how the integrated. The structure was based off of the basement plans to leave to basically segment it into what we considered North Campus and South Campus. North Campus had three buildings and South Campus had five buildings with a small like some connector hallways that we would basically kind of like cut down the middle and that would make them. So that was kind of the mistake is.

[A]

So you have two files.

[B]

So we have two. Two files. Yeah. So we have two. Two models for architecture. And then of course north and a.

[A]

South, three buildings and five buildings. And are all these buildings have the same like finished floor datum running across them? No, of course not.

[B]

Because the north. Let's just say the north basement level is at a different elevation. You know, basement one level. So we call it B1. So B1. There are three different Finnish elevation or. Yeah, Finnish elevations. For B1 there's how for three different buildings. No, no.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

For so in our north. Dude, this is. This is where the insanity comes into play. So of the three buildings in our North Campus, two of those buildings straddle between 1B1 level change.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then the half of those two buildings and then the other building which is our theater and everything else, those are all share the same finished floor. So it's literally two different floors, two different levels that. That make up that. And so that was in its own right a big pain in the butt to kind of get all of that coordinate and then everything else basically hits. There is no single datum of what that first floor, ground floor, finished floor is either.

[A]

So you have all these different levels. You have in the active model for like when you're drawing a wall, which level to attach it to.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Or anything in revit. Because it's all associative to levels and grids, right?

[B]

Y. Yes.

[A]

And so you have how many levels can like if you did the pull down list of like what level to attach a wall to, how many levels would there be?

[B]

Well, we have eight buildings. So you. Eight.

[A]

But in the one in One file in one file. You have, you don't have all eight buildings, levels and ground, right? So three, three and five.

[B]

Let's just say, let's just say in our north, north campus for ground floor we have three ground floors. But those three ground floors also don't consider the courtyards and things like that. So let me paint, let me paint an even bigger picture.

[A]

So your site is in that model too.

[B]

Your site, the site is referenced into the. Or is attached into that. So.

[A]

So that's a separate model.

[B]

It is a separate model.

[A]

Is it a model to a point?

[B]

To a point. It's a model. It has. It had to be a model to a point. And the reason why is because our site straddles two different things over site finishes and stuff over occupied space below and unoccupied space below. So there's like. And why is that important? Because it's like how does, how does. Like this, this. Let's just say we've got a plaza and half of that plaza is over occupied space and half of that plaza is over grade. That the portion over grade. It's. It's relatively simple, right? You're, you're just kind of creating the, the layers of your finished paving and all of that other stuff for all of that as it gets in over structure, over occupied space. If you're planting in that same area in the landscape model now it becomes a little bit more complex because that structure doesn't live in the landscape model. It actually lives in the architecture model or the structural model. And if you have like say tree wells, those tree wells live in the structure model. And so like all of this stuff has to interweave between all of the different levels and you. And here's where you start to see where bus of like did. Did structural set there structural slab at the right elevation so that when you put all of the. Because now think about this. There's a portion of your landscape that is actually. Let's just call it a green roof, right? It is a roof assembly. Even though it's. When you're standing out there, you would never even know it's grade.

[A]

At grade. Yeah.

[B]

Well, so there's. Even if it's at grade, it's a roof assembly to a point. And then it becomes basically then it's just pavers on site work, on site work. And so you have all of those. And so each of those. Because the site is sort of a warped plane because it's not flat. There is almost a 3 meter change in both. Just punched my microphone Here.

[A]

That was an incredible sound.

[B]

Getting excited. But if you, if so let's, let's picture it as a. Just a regular piece of paper. So I'm going to hold up my visual.

[A]

We're getting a visual here, people.

[B]

So hold up piece of paper. So it's like on the longitudinal side.

[A]

Like east to west.

[B]

East, west side, it drops three meters, but diagonally it also drops three meters. But when you're placing all of those buildings all the way around it, each of those buildings, when they hit the ground floor or the ground plane, they're all sitting at different elevations as they hit.

[A]

So this is why I cannot believe you guys decided to put multiple buildings in one file. I cannot believe it. Because dealing with Revit's levels and grids. Pain in the ass. If it's more than one building. It is. Absolutely. I mean, and just for the people coming onto the project midway or having to deal with that all the time, like, oh my God, talk about, like, talk about the Matrix, right? Just like the dropping down the screen and you gotta, you gotta like somehow some, you gotta somehow take this in and figure it out.

[B]

So.

[A]

Nightmare.

[B]

So the thing is that would it have been better to do say 10 models where, you know, you essentially had. Your South Campus model was just your basement levels and then you plugged in your five models. On top of that though, here's where we were starting to get pushback. And so this is where we start talking about like collaboration with your engineers and everything else. This structural. They didn't want to do. In fact, they didn't want to do anything more than two models because their whole basement level and all of the structure that's coming off of it, it was all coming in at. So like all of the buildings essentially are create one building. So if you looked at the, the two, the North Campus and the South Campus, in the structure's mind, that was just two buildings.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I get that. I wonder though if they would still feel the same way today as they'd did back then when they gave.

[B]

Yeah, we were, we were talking about that and we were trying, we were trying to talk about like, you know, what we'd do differently, what we would do better. And, and we all do this at.

[A]

Some point when it's just like you're pulling your hair out with 20 minute exports of.

[B]

Exactly. And BIM is definitely one of those things now. Like let's. So truth be told, the model that I'm doing these CAD exports out of is the biggest model of all of the models. And it has everything turned on. Everything turned on. Our interiors models. Our. Like there is.

[A]

You mean models or do you mean work sets? Like there's actually an interiors model.

[B]

There's an interiors model, yes.

[A]

So that's a separate model.

[B]

Yes, in mechanical and plumbing and IT and security and everything else. So, yeah, everything. So if I wanted security cameras to show up, I'm going to be turning on the security model. If I wanted fire protection to show up, I'd be turning on plumbing and fire protection and so on and so forth. I mean those are pretty, pretty similar to like most every other project. But the sheer size of them makes.

[A]

Like they're set up the same way that you're set up right where it's like a north and a south. Because they're not. They're not building that stuff. What I'm saying is they're building all dictated based on how you decided to accomplish this in the first place.

[B]

Yes, I will say that at least between the structure, mechanical and architecture had this conversation early on, what should we do? What is the best way? And I think I may have been swayed a little too much by our structures saying I don't want to build a bunch of different models because everything's kind of interlinked together. I'd, you know, much prefer to do two. And so I get that.

[A]

I just don't know that. I just would wonder if it's still the same I, you know, sentiment or not. Because like they're really seriously need lessons learned here after this to say how will we do this next time? And like that rarely. It happens, but not enough.

[C]

And.

[A]

And you have to do it with that same group of initial stakeholders say hey guys, like, okay, let's, let's. There's no pointing fingers here. Like this is seriously for the next time. It's not anything about.

[B]

No, no, no, no.

[A]

How.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And how. How would knowing what we know now, how would we do it differently do.

[B]

I'll say this. Did it make sense at the time? Yes, because of just.

[A]

Well, you didn't know what you didn't know.

[B]

Exactly. You didn't.

[A]

Complex. We also gonna get how big they.

[B]

Were gonna get the sheer volume of detail on all of these models, which is part of our contractual requirement going back to that made these things become.

[A]

Is there an LOD assigned to this?

[B]

350, which is so typical is 300. And even with that, like. Well, so technically it's 300, but they've been demanding it to be more. And so with that it's getting a Squeeze man. Yes. So with that, they're getting like 350 level documents out of the 300 level contractual form. Yes.

[A]

Let's just say it plainly.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Oh, my. And literally paying for it. Like, you are literally paying for that with these experts.

[B]

Did you say pay or painting pain?

[A]

You're literally painting for this. The idea of the true cost of these decisions is not something that should be overlooked after the fact.

[B]

And honestly, the.

[A]

It's so easy to say yes up front. It is so easy to say yes and. And it is so hard to go back and say, you know what? Like, that was stupid. We should never do that again, and we should stand our ground.

[B]

So I was talking to some students about models and stuff because they're. They're building all of their stuff and Rhino and Revit and all of this other stuff. They're. They're like doing kind of these hybrid workflows and things like that. And I was just like, you're gonna. As you start to work through them, you need to, like, learn how to integrate all of those workflows together so that you're not basically doing any important work. Right. And they're like. And so I started to explain to them, like, what our. This particular model is. And I'm not joking with you when I say that, like, our South Campus model with the five buildings in it typically takes about 50 minutes to load. 5, 050 to load. And that's just.

[A]

That's just open.

[B]

Just open for the day. And people are like, so what do you do for that 50 minutes? Like, don't close the model email. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

You do other stuff, we do other stuff. You can't do anything else.

[B]

But I mean, if you're anything else. Okay, let's say if your day. But let's say if your day is geared. Your eight hours of your day is geared towards doing eight hours of production work. Syncing typically takes like 17 to 20 minutes of time each time, which, of course, you always get this. Evan, can you sync Cormac, can you sync kind of like, do you have.

[A]

Anything quantifying these numbers in the background so that you can actually put a real metric to them when you're all said and done?

[B]

I wish.

[A]

I wish Beats people. You got to get bim beats. Tell John you got to get bimbeats.

[B]

Holy crap.

[A]

You need to know what this stuff is actually costing your firm.

[B]

Yeah, I agree with you. I totally 100% agree with you. I'm going to write this down.

[A]

Talk to Conrad over at Bimbeats. I Mean, it's one of those things where it's like you can literally measure all kinds of things. And people are typically scared of these kinds of things because they're going to this big brother and they're going to know what you're doing. But it's like this is serious business stuff.

[B]

This is the amount of time.

[A]

The business owns the software, they own the computers. You're their employee. This is their project. They have to deliver it. It's their reputation on the line. They need to know what it's actually taking.

[B]

The amount of time in time. Exactly. The amount of time that it takes for me to. Well, let's just say that the amount of time it has taken for the entire team to wait on the model, to prepare the model, to recover the model because, yes, there has been.

[A]

That hasn't happened.

[B]

Multiple recoveries of this model who successfully sunk.

[A]

Problem with. The problem with big models. Right. Is they're so complicated, it's easy to break them.

[B]

Yes. Yep. Yes. And then of course, when you do eventually upgrade that model and things start to dehost and all of these other things and you just basically have stuff that goes all haywire. Thankfully, this one didn't really. We, we, we didn't have as many problems as we thought. We originally, we, we ran a few tests. We, we created some, some duplicate models and ran a test and we were getting thousands upon thousands of errors and things like that. And. And so thankfully we somehow got. Got around. And I don't know what, how somebody else much, much, much, much, much, much smarter than me was working in the background to, to do all of that and make sure that it didn't implode on us. But, but what's your billable rate?

[A]

What's your billable rate?

[B]

Mine?

[A]

Yeah. Bill you out at. I think it's like one, like 150.

[B]

It's might be a little bit lower than that, but roughly around there.

[A]

Okay. So I mean, just the, just the time it takes that you can literally just sit there. Let's just say. Well, let's just say that insign.

[B]

Well, let's just say that how old.

[A]

Is the computer that you have?

[B]

I think because it, how, how old is the one that you got? The.

[A]

It's like a year and mine's a.

[B]

Year and I think I had mine probably about six months longer than you got yours. So.

[A]

And, but let's just say it's not the top of the line, right?

[B]

No, no. For some reason they kitted this one out and actually it's pretty Good.

[A]

Yeah, I'm just. This is.

[B]

This is a guy who runs, like, three different revit builds at the same time.

[A]

Yeah, no, it's not. It's not incapable. My point is, when you're doing work like this, a faster computer makes a measurable difference that is totally peanuts compared to your billable rate.

[B]

So.

[A]

Yeah, and that's where a lot of people don't want to upgrade hardware, even though it could seriously do, like, a 20% increase in productivity. And it doesn't. It doesn't even compare to how much they're wasting on your billable rate with this kind of stuff. And yet there's so much pushback for doing that.

[B]

100%. Preaching to the choir. Because you and I know because, like, we've gotten together and even with some of our friends that you used to work with, who would use. Who used to make fun of me when they would see my computer and compare to theirs, it's just like, their build made more sense for the work that we do versus this. Like, I was like, oh, look at my old timey machine here, let me crank it up.

[A]

That's right. When we were at the AI.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

It just, it reminds me, though, of like. Like, okay, so there's different paradigms here. You could be completely working in the cloud and, like, a data center could be doing this stuff and, like, and that. That significantly cuts down on the amount of time because data centers have the most capable hardware in them. Right. They can spin it up in a moment's notice when you're bound to your desktop machine to do a lot of these things. Like, you literally should be getting a new machine every six to 12 months, because that makes a difference in this. That is, again, like, it just doesn't make sense not to do it. It increases your productivity in such meaningful ways. And for you to have a machine that's over a year old, it doesn't make any sense. Like, what if it cut down five or 10 minutes off of each one of those exports? Let's just say. And, like, how. How much does that add up over the life of a project? But listen, it's a crazy number.

[B]

Listen, I'm going to see if I can do it. I would have to replace my stickers on my computer. Yes, I did.

[A]

Oh, so it's you. It's you who doesn't want.

[B]

Oh, no, no, no, no. It is.

[A]

It is definitely my sticker.

[B]

It is definitely not me. I could go out and buy new stickers.

[A]

Trust me, I love my stickers.

[B]

I love my stickers.

[A]

No, there's just there. There are answers to these. A lot of times people don't want to know what those are because it takes work, it takes effort to implement these things. At the same time, like, you're.

[B]

I'm.

[A]

I'm literally crazy that you're profitable on projects like these.

[C]

If you are.

[A]

I mean, assuming you are, it's crazy because of how much literal time is wasted.

[B]

But think. Yeah, so. So let's. Let's just say that I opened up the. I opened up the model, right? So if I wasn't doing something else, which I was while it was opening, that's an hour. Right. And then I'm synchronizing. Let's say I. Let's say I synchronize four times a day. Just four times a day.

[A]

You only save four times a day.

[B]

Let's. Let's just say if I only did four times a day and it's 15 minutes per sync, that's another hour gone. And, you know, if I'm exporting CAD like I'm doing right now, and it's. And I'm just doing four, literally right now, I am only doing four files. And it took me around 40 minutes for two of those files, and we started recording when one of them was still going.

[A]

And so Revit in the background. I mean, you're jeopardizing. You're jeopardizing this recording right now.

[B]

I totally agree with you that I'm jeopardizing because I, I could. I couldn't force quit it or anything else. I needed it to.

[A]

Is fully locked.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Cannot do anything. I. Well, I can start a record recording up.

[B]

Right, Exactly. So. So I just. So it is. It was running in the background. And I agree with me, if the.

[A]

Recording just stopped right now and that's the end of the episode right there.

[B]

You have reached your limit. Yeah, but. Okay, so if somebody is only working production on that day, don't have tons of emails and stuff like that.

[A]

Yeah, they're not. They're not the level at which they can. They. They need to be doing other things.

[B]

So, so then if you think about their productivity for the day, if just what I have been experiencing today, they've at least lost two hours of just waiting on revit. Just waiting on the model.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

So now they're down to six hours. You do that on a daily basis and you're every. Just that. Yeah, just that. So now you're down, what, 10 hours per week?

[A]

But they're still building the project at that full, full Amount.

[B]

Well, what else do you do?

[A]

Where else would you, I mean it is project time.

[B]

It literally is. You're just waiting on your project to actually wake up so that you can work on it.

[A]

But the bottleneck is your software, your hardware.

[B]

Yeah, right, right.

[A]

Your workflow.

[B]

And so, so now somebody who's billable at 40 hours a week is really technically only built working 30 hours a week because they're waiting on their machine and the software hardware to their billable.

[A]

Rate and their billable rate cost right there. That's just totally.

[B]

And that's just one, that's just one week. One week.

[A]

Yeah. No, it's probably not even a week. And it, and it's these conversations so justifiable and yet it will never happen. Right. And I'm not saying it's not complicated, like somebody has to manage that process, but it's not, you would almost say, incredibly challenging either.

[B]

Hey, I think we're going to have a project team of five people on this project throughout the life of it, of it. And we're going to, you know, we're going to have this project say it's going to be in the design phase, the documentation phase. Let's just be optimistic and say it's going to be one year. Okay. Bill in new machines for that. Because if you get the most optimized machine that can make them run a heck of a lot more efficient, then you've just the, just by investing in new equipment for that project, you're going to be making that project more productive.

[A]

What you actually need to do is you need to run virtual machines here. And you could have any crappy computer at home and the virtual machine is set up while you're working, like it's literally ready. The next time you boot, you will be on a new or faster setup. And it is totally transparent to the user and firms working on projects like this that aren't looking into, or actually implementing, not just looking into these technologies. That's crazy making to me because you, you need to be able to have that not only like speed but redundancy. Like you can't afford downtime on projects like these. You just can't at all.

[B]

Totally agree with you. And this one particularly was because of just the demands that we had on it. I mean it was now, now, now, now, now for everything, you know.

[A]

And so let me, let me just really explain what, what a virtualized machine is. It's literally, you're, you're just logging in and using a computer that sits somewhere else. It center, it could be under a desk in your office because your Internet bandwidth is fast enough. Like, Revit does not need super high performance. Like, the ability to look into that machine doesn't have to be 60 frames a second. That would be fantastic if it was. But that computer can be in a tower, it could be in a rack, in a server room. It could be any kind of configuration that actually makes sense, hardware wise. But it's definitely bigger and badder than the little laptop that you've got on your desk here with a couple of monitors. But all that is is literally a station to look into a bigger batter machine. And that bigger batter machine can be spooled up or down. And I'm explaining this to the audience because it's important to understand that these technologies exist. Like, that thing can grow or shrink depending on what you're doing. And like I said, you could log in the next day and not notice any difference. All your stuff's in the same place. Your desktop background looks the same. Everything but that computer has been updated to a bigger, badder machine. And all you know is you have the best all the time. And that is totally possible today.

[B]

Did I not mention the stickers? I have stickers.

[A]

Then you get to keep your. Then you get to actually keep your stickers because it doesn't matter what machine you have.

[B]

Yeah, but does the virtual machine stickers.

[A]

Dash cam under the desk to be looking at your stickers? Is that what you look.

[B]

I mean, and what's funny is, like, so I've got this screen kind of minimized, and I'm looking at my desktop with all, like, the little icons and stuff on there, and I have Revit 20, 21, 22, 23, and 24. I've just. Yeah, so that's how many.

[A]

You're using them all, all the time. And how much RAM do you have? You got like, 64 gigs of RAM or 32 or what do you have?

[B]

Probably.

[A]

Machine probably.

[B]

Probably. Let me.

[A]

Like, it's this. This is the backbone of our business. And I'm guessing that the skimpage is happening. Yeah, the people, our people are our differentiator. Yeah, that's what we keep telling.

[B]

Because they can work faster.

[A]

They could just work more longer. Click more faster.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Well, it doesn't matter how. I mean, there's times when. And I don't know if you've ever experienced this, but there's times when I'm working in Revit and I'll click and I can count. I. I've. I've literally counted up to, like, three minutes until the. That, like, it's activated or the thing.

[A]

That you clicked on.

[B]

The thing that I clicked on is ready for me to kind of, like, work with it here. It's like, again, you think about, like, how long it just Waiting on Revit has, and I think that's the show title there. Waiting on Revit.

[A]

Revit.

[B]

Yeah. I think that just Waiting on Revit is such a killer of productivity time.

[A]

Yeah. But you also have to save these files, and this does go back to original decisions that you guys made on how to set these models up. So it's on you.

[B]

I feel the blame. I feel the blame.

[A]

Ouch. And, like, let's just say it's, like, impossible to untangle that web now.

[B]

Right?

[A]

You can't.

[B]

There's no way. Yeah. There's no way for us to undo this one.

[A]

Could it be done? Sure. Nobody's willing to actually do it.

[B]

How much more time and really then that. To untangle it? That's not billable. I mean, that's not billable to them. That's just on us. Oh. If you want to make it better, okay, here you do this. And they even asked us to do that because now, like, there's other conversations that we can have on why they asked us to do that because of how unruly of a behemoth it actually is.

[A]

I believe it.

[B]

And the thing was, is that we're like, if we've been working on this project for two and a half years and now you're asking us to do this, even though you were the ones who.

[A]

It would never happen cleanly.

[B]

It would say never happened cleanly.

[A]

You would lose stuff. You would. You would break stuff. Oh, my gosh.

[B]

Exactly. And so they were just like, no, there's. There's no way that we can do this.

[A]

Oh, at least you guys said no to something.

[B]

Why? You want to make me cry?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Let's end this episode with a bunch of sobbing from Cormac.

[A]

No.

[B]

Really? Yeah. No, really.