#377 - The Disconnect Between Academia and Practice

Summary

Archispeak Episode #377: The Disconnect Between Academia and Practice

Date: September 8, 2025
Hosts: Evan Troxel & Cormac Phalen

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Episode Overview

In this candid, introspective episode, Evan Troxel and Cormac Phalen grapple with the persistent disconnect between architectural education and architectural practice. Woven through with personal anecdotes, hard-earned wisdom, and plenty of self-deprecating humor, the hosts debate what it truly means to prepare for a career in architecture—and how that preparation often falls short. Their conversation traverses topics including work-life exhaustion, the shift from deep learning to surface-level research, generational gaps in training, industry inefficiencies, and the existential crisis facing the profession.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Work-Life Exhaustion and “Active Resting”

[00:11–06:29]

• The episode opens with both hosts discussing chronic exhaustion and the “24/7 on” culture that pervades architectural practice today.
• Active Resting: Both admit that even when trying to rest, they’re usually consuming content or learning, never truly unplugging.
  • "Just because you're like laying flat doesn't necessarily mean you're resting." — Cormac [06:29]
  • They recall pre-internet days, contrasting then with the constant stimulus now required to feel “productive,” even while resting.
• Reflection on addiction to constant input and its adverse effects on actual recuperation, referencing Jony Ive’s reported regrets (creator of the iPhone) about proliferating screen-based devices.

2. Loss of Deep Learning and the Rise of Surface-Level Knowledge

[09:09–13:35]

• Cormac laments the shift from deep, committed learning to “30-second soundbites of knowledge.”
  • "I don't know if we dive deep enough anymore because we're just 30 seconds sound biting our knowledge." — Cormac [10:25]
• Evan points out the tension between having instant access to vast information and lacking the discipline or context to filter and internalize it meaningfully.
  • “People say they're researching things, but what they're actually doing is just searching for things.” — Evan [11:40]
• Reflection on how true research involves steps, cross-referencing, synthesis, and how contemporary practice often reduces research to rapid skimming and “good enough” conclusions.

3. From Experience to Expediency: Training Architects in Practice

[13:35–20:11]

• The hosts reflect on site visits, tactile learning, and unhurried exploration—the kinds of experiences once core to architectural training.
• Cormac recounts current frustrations with training young colleagues who lack practical exposure.
  • "Most of the team is very young and haven't had the experiences of being out on site or being exposed to certain things. And so they just don't know what the importance is." — Cormac [15:00]
• The relentless pressure for efficiency leads to knowledge gaps: less time for mentoring, fewer meaningful learning moments at the office or on-site.

4. Challenges of Modern Digital Practice and Technical Debt

[20:12–31:37]

• Deeper dive into the pitfalls of the digital age, from working in isolation on screens to the technical debt accumulated in large BIM models.
  • "I saw some report recently that decent sized firms... takes 9,000 hours a year just opening, syncing and saving. That's how much time is being spent on that." — Evan [24:36]
• Cormac relates the painful story of a massive project Revit model that takes nearly an hour to open—a direct result of choices made without sufficient foresight.
  • "Hindsight, I'm gonna tell everybody right now, hindsight would do it differently. We would do it completely differently." — Cormac [25:14]
• This technical debt is used as a metaphor for short-term thinking and the lack of proactive planning at both project and career development levels.

5. The Disconnect Between Academia and Practice: What Should Schools Teach?

[31:45–39:19]

• Evan references an AIA report questioning whether schools are preparing students to enter the workforce.
• The hosts address the perennial schism: schools focus on design theory and creative exploration rather than the realities and responsibilities of practice.
  • "When upon graduation, an architect is not an architect, it is an explorer, an adventurer, somebody who's creatively curious but can't really practice architecture in the way that our license depends on." — Cormac [33:35]
• Both agree architecture’s problems are “wicked,” not easily solved by rote instruction.

6. The Systemic Problem: Lack of Opportunity, Fulfillment, and Guidance

[39:20–43:23]

• Many junior architects feel betrayed by the profession—they’re sold an inspiring vision, only to encounter burnout and bureaucracy.
  • "The profession has failed them. They haven't failed the profession. They were sold something that the profession was unable to live up to." — Cormac [38:44]
• Discussion of administrative burdens, difficult permitting processes, and the “layers of crap” encasing architectural creativity.

7. The Value (and Cost) of Experience

[43:24–52:24]

• True professional confidence comes only after years (often decades) of repetitive, reflective practice.
  • Reference to Peter Eisenman and I.M. Pei’s statement that “it takes to the age of 40 to become an architect,” which the hosts argue feels out of sync with younger generations—but remains true in many respects.
  • “It’s the time that it takes to gain the experience of repetition, of experiencing things over and over again, of doing things over and over again that starts to give you the confidence of being able to do it again and again and again, but doing it at an elevated level.” — Cormac [48:29]
• There's no shortcut to “devouring” the craft and making the mistakes necessary to truly learn.

8. Ending on Uncertainties: More Questions Than Answers

[52:24–end]

• The episode closes with the acknowledgment that none of these dilemmas have easy solutions, and that the profession’s sustainability is an open question.
  • "Will the profession be around?" — Evan [52:57]
  • "Leave you with a final question, something to ponder as you're trying to fall asleep tonight, basically. Oh, more questions than answers." — Evan [53:00]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• "Just because you're like laying flat doesn't necessarily mean you're resting." — Cormac [06:29]
• "People say they're researching things, but what they're actually doing is just searching for things." — Evan [11:40]
• "We’ve evolved into needing this constant stimuli. Devolved." — Cormac [07:38]
• "Most of the team is very young and haven't had the experiences of being out on site or being exposed to certain things. And so they just don't know what the importance is." — Cormac [15:00]
• "I saw some report recently that decent sized firms... takes 9,000 hours a year just opening, syncing and saving. That's how much time is being spent on that." — Evan [24:36]
• "The profession has failed them. They haven't failed the profession. They were sold something that the profession was unable to live up to." — Cormac [38:44]
• "It’s the time that it takes to gain the experience of repetition... that starts to give you the confidence of being able to do it again and again and again, but doing it at an elevated level." — Cormac [48:29]
• "Leave you with a final question, something to ponder as you're trying to fall asleep tonight, basically. Oh, more questions than answers." — Evan [53:00]

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Key Timestamps

• 00:11 – Exhaustion and work-life imbalance
• 04:59 – Modern "active resting" and tech addiction
• 09:09 – Decline of deep learning in architecture
• 13:35 – Loss of experiential learning in training
• 20:04 – The impact of digital practice on collaboration
• 24:36 – Technical debt: Revit woes and inefficiencies
• 31:45 – Are schools preparing architects for practice?
• 38:44 – The profession “betraying” new architects
• 48:29 – On experience and the 40-year architect
• 52:57 – Will the profession survive? Episode close

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Episode Tone

Reflective, honest, and at times existential, the episode is delivered in the hosts’ trademark conversational style, blending humor, nostalgia, frustration, and hope. Both Evan and Cormac share openly about their own missteps and doubts, inviting listeners—especially students and early-career architects—to critically examine both the ideals and realities of architectural work.

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For more Archispeak content and community: archispeakpodcast.com

Transcript

[Cormac]

Exhaustion.

[Host]

Deep breath, deep breath. Chronic.

[Cormac]

Yeah.

[Host]

I talk about being exhausted. I took a nap yesterday. I never take naps. I. I was so out. Holy crap. It was like incredible.

[Cormac]

I felt like today I was going to take a nap in the middle of a meeting that I was on because I was just so saying it.

[Host]

Was a news fest.

[Cormac]

No, no, Funny enough it wasn't that. It was just me.

[Host]

If it's not you, it's me.

[Cormac]

Yeah, it is. It was definitely not them me. It was just. I was just exhausted. I woke up realizing that today we were having a. We've reorganized the office into communities based around kind of like different practice groups, kind of similar to the old studios method but we're calling them the nicer gentler communities which I have got no problem with, to be quite honest with you. Where it may. May sound like, but we were giving a presentation today and I completely forgot that a part of that was their. The tech. Kind of like a tech and design portion of it which is usually about like a 10 minute kind of spiel talking about like different things, whether it's tech related, detail related, documentation related, design related. And I was doing something on handrails of all things.

[Host]

That sounds amazing.

[Cormac]

It. Yes, yes. And. And so I forgot that I did not finish up my, my portion of the slides and everything. Not my portion, I mean, but I did not finish up the slides to get ready for the, the presentation. And so I Woke up around 4 thinking about it and I'm like, just get up and go do it. So been kind of. Yeah, so I'm tired because I've been up early. And then I just rolled that into responding to RFIs and then rolled that into meetings and then rolled that into Stop working. Yeah, kind of. That was it. It was just like, well you're up now. Just keep on keeping on.

[Host]

And I did. So have you always been. Well, not, not that you are an early riser. You do get up pretty early though, right? So have you always been like that or is this something that has changed throughout your career or you think.

[Cormac]

No, I mean I've always been an early riser and a late going to. Better. So.

[Host]

Okay, so the name of this episode is Burning the candle at both ends because that's what you do.

[Cormac]

Clearly I rarely and I will say preface this by past Cormac would be work till exhaustion and then wake up early and do it all over again.

[Host]

Okay.

[Cormac]

And normally I will just. I will sometimes I'll still do that but not often anymore. More I'll just be Like I, I, the habit is, is that I continue to go to sleep late and wake.

[Host]

Up early and my son is visiting from out of town, one of my boys. And, and he, we, we went out and did a bunch of stuff yesterday and then, but he was, he, he got here. My, my, my oldest, he's staying with my oldest and so they, they came over and he's dragging his feet. It's like, what happened? So I couldn't go to sleep. Here's what I, here's what I imagined him doing. Cormac, what do you think I imagined.

[Cormac]

Him doing until 3am Scrolling doom scrolling.

[Host]

Yeah, just social media getting the blue light in the eyeballs till later.

[Cormac]

Oh, I, I, I hear my daughter say that all the time. She's like, I just couldn't get to sleep. Well, what were you doing?

[Host]

What were you doing? Weren't laying there with your eyes closed trying to get to sleep. I imagine that's what I immediately.

[Cormac]

Exactly, exactly. No, I feel like if I'm awake, I need to be productive somehow. Whether it's watching the random My gosh, you're a nerd architectural documentary. Because why not?

[Host]

Were you just talking to yourself right there?

[Cormac]

Yes, exactly. Yeah.

[Host]

Oh, but, yeah, but, but okay, so, so a screen, you just mentioned a screen. I just mentioned a screen. Right. This is the thing. It's like being productive. So you're, you're resting but you're watching, you're being entertained or you're learning or whatever. You, whatever. However you want to frame it. Right. But, but still, it's like that is the culture nowadays. It is, it's, it's just constantly on and.

[Cormac]

Yeah.

[Host]

What do you think about that?

[Cormac]

Why, this is the question.

[Host]

Why can't you just, you're actively participating it, right? And I think, oh yeah, like this, you're totally actively participating. And at the same time you're like, I shouldn't be doing that.

[Cormac]

Yeah, yeah. It's like, well, at least I wasn't like doom scrolling. Or at least I wasn't doing this or doing that. And I was like, but you're still staring into a screen. You're still not just closing your eyes, vegging out and going to sleep, which is what your body really needs. So what's the difference other than I don't know about you, but you just start scrolling through and you're just like, ah.

[Host]

So, so here's what I do. I have, I have a smart outlet that my WI fi router is plugged into and that automatically goes off at 11 o' clock every night and it doesn't turn back on until 6 the next day. Not that that would stop you on your phone because it does something. It does something. It's like you have to do. It's crazy though, right? We have to do. We don't have to. You don't have to do these things, but you can do these things. But it's funny because you're like, you're resting and you're actively resting because you're watching or learning or doing something. You're not actually resting when you're tired and away.

[Cormac]

Right.

[Host]

Like you said, you feel comfortable just because you're productive. That's ridiculous.

[Cormac]

Yeah, it's like, just because you're like laying flat doesn't necessarily mean you're resting.

[Host]

No, absolutely not. Most people I think nowadays aren't. They're like, they feel like you like, oh, I should be. I could be learning or what? And then it devolves into something that is not learning usually.

[Cormac]

Sure. Oh, what is John Wick doing?

[Host]

Yeah, actively resting. Watching an action flick. Right?

[Cormac]

Exactly, exactly. But I, I don't. It's interesting is because I can. We both probably can remember the days pre phone or even pre like smartphone, let's just say pre Internet, pre social media kind of things where you need to put your phone down. What else is there to do? Sleep this really. Or, or at the very least you're what, listening to music in the dark and you're then ultimately falling asleep or something.

[Host]

Yeah, something.

[Cormac]

Well, back, back in the day you weren't. I mean, there was no.

[Host]

Yeah, yeah, right.

[Cormac]

I'm talking about back in the day.

[Host]

Totally.

[Cormac]

And now it's just like we've, we've evolved into needing this constant stimuli. Devolved. Yes, devolved into needing this constant stimuli where we're just. Whatever it is is, you just got to keep kind of like those synapses firing for. With something. Right. Instead of letting them rest, relax and re. Recharge so that you can actually be productive the next day. And.

[Host]

Yeah, it's actually an addiction. Right. And it's interesting because now there's tech companies out there who are talking pretty heavily about the like Jony, I've who used to be at Apple and designed the iPhone and designed all those computers with screens and all those things, is now supposedly working with OpenAI to come up with some kind of hardware AI device that is no screen. Right. Screenless on purpose because of some regret that he feels about designing devices that billions of people use all the time. And I just think it's kind of interesting though that it's like this really public acknowledgment by a really powerful individual to say like, oh, we kind of screwed up. Yeah, and here we are. And I think what's interesting about it is we truly actually enjoy it. And that is what makes it so difficult to even acknowledge that it is addictive in that way. Nobody wants to be addicted to anything, I don't think.

[Cormac]

And so to kind of bring that home to architecture. There used to be a time when let's say we would study like precedence and read books and kind of commit to memory things that we found important about design or, or, or whatever. And now it's, I don't have to remember it, I just have to remember, oh, I had a tab that I saved or I can look it up or whatever. And then you don't. To me, I guess the, the lament about all of that is that you, you lose this kind of like essence of trying to learn everything you can about it, you know, like learn the importance of why it is that you're looking at something like when we were talking about the British Arts Museum and we were going through this detail of the experience and everything else. But you know, we've known about this project for so long and it's been part of these just ideas that we have about architecture or space or whatever else and to. In, in we've like dived deep into understanding and I don't know if we dive deep enough anymore because we're just 30 seconds sound biting our knowledge, you know.

[Host]

And well, there's so much more access too. So that plays a part in it is just the availability of everything that wasn't the like before I had to go to the fifth floor of the university library and go through the stacks and try to find the books and then go to the library that was in the architecture building too and try to find the books and then the slides and look at drawings and do all those things. And now it's literally on this thing that you have with you all the time. And yet filtering through that noise is difficult too.

[Cormac]

But does more mean more? I mean does. Because in what I mean by that is you have more access to all different things. But are you doing the deep dive into understanding what it is that you're looking at? What it is that makes that particular thing special or what that what could repulse you? Whatever you mean, are you giving it more of a chance than just the 30 second scroll or even are you spending 30 seconds on it?

[Host]

I think you nailed it. I think that you. You've actually, you're saying exactly the right thing, which is like this commitment to. So. So people say they're researching things, but what they're actually doing is just searching for things.

[Cormac]

Yeah.

[Host]

Searching is research, is. Is a methodology. It's like, it has steps. Right. You've got hypoth. It's like the scientific method in that way. It's like, oh, I think that this thing. Now I'm going to go figure that out, if that's even a valid question. Okay, Now I've decided that's a valid question. Now I'm going to go, I'm going to find these sources and I'm going to dig deep into those and I'm going to cross reference and remember, we had to write bibliographies and all those things, right?

[Cormac]

Yes.

[Host]

Citations. And you're right. Like, now it's just like one thing leads to another, leads to another. Okay. All of a sudden I'm shopping for shoes. Right. I've said. And. And then you go back and you're. Okay, I'm back on track now. And skimming. Like, you're literally skimming.

[Cormac]

Right.

[Host]

And good enough, good enough, good enough. Oh, that's cool. Oh, good enough. But it's not deep like you're talking about.

[Cormac]

You remember when you read the Cliff Notes of a book you were supposed to read in school and then you basically got exposed when you took the test, the final exam, because the Cliff Notes, by some. Some chance, didn't cover everything that the test or exam was going to cover. And it's sort of what you know, we're doing now is we're just looking for the Cliff Notes. Okay, well, why is the British Arts Museum a good building? And it's just like, quick, quick search. Oh, okay. It's because he uses light and he uses this and that, and it's just like. But how. Why Are you asking the hows and the whys of what it is that you're looking at? Are you just looking for examples of, like, I don't know, I'm starting to feel like I'm yelling at the clouds a little bit. But you are. Which I am.

[Host]

But that's fine. I. That's what. That's what this episode's about, I guess. But the thing that's interesting to me about your point about going deeper is like, so we've talked about this for years on the podcast, right? Which is that the, the whole, like, how you become an architect, and we've talked about the value of experience.

[Cormac]

Right.

[Host]

And actually experiencing things. Not. Not just doing things, but experiencing things and going to the site. And how much of that stuff over the years has just been removed from the training of an architect because it's not efficient enough. Right. It's not expedient enough. It's like, oh, it's not convenient enough for us to invest in our people, to send them to the site to do ca. To. To do all of those things. And so, like when we go visit the British Art Museum and take the time and not be on a schedule and we didn't have to get there at a certain time, we didn't have to leave at a certain time.

[Cormac]

Right.

[Host]

We just did the thing and we decided when it was time to leave and we decided how long we were going to spend on floor number three and floor number four by. By being there and seeing things and asking questions and being curious and looking for alternative angles, different points of view within the building. And it's through that exploration, that curiosity, that exploration of the thing. How much did we learn versus Right. Five pages in the monograph that you have on your desk.

[Cormac]

Exactly. You know, it's interesting. So today of some of the many meetings and the one that I'll admit that I was starting to feel. Feel a little tired in.

[Host]

Not off.

[Cormac]

Not. I couldn't nod off because I was actually talking. So I just felt tired.

[Host]

I think I might have. I maybe have done that. Been in one of those level.

[Cormac]

Yeah.

[Host]

Level unlocked.

[Cormac]

Exactly. It's just like. And so what I'm saying is.

[Host]

Yeah, I'm micro sleeping.

[Cormac]

Exactly. Was. I've been QCing a project and there's. There's some. It's. It's early in the stage, so obviously there's some things that are missing, but there's some things that you would expect to be there at this stage that aren't there. And a lot of the conversation today wasn't about why was it there and things like that, but the reason in the story of, like, why it's important for it to be there, what kind of information at this level versus at this stage versus this stage versus this stage of why that information needs to be there. And a lot of what I was realizing is most of the team is very young and haven't had the experiences of being out on site or being exposed to certain things. And so they just don't know what the importance is. So if they're given an example project and say this is a project that is very similar, they'll try to Emulate the information that's on that example project without understanding why it is that they're doing what they're doing. And it's through really no fault of theirs that they just haven't had the opportunity for the experience. But that is in turn the reason why the experiences we constantly talk about is really important. Because you'll understand why that certain thing is very important to put on the drawings because you're trying to tell a story. Why am I doing a reflected ceiling plan? What am I trying to get out of it? I mean, we may think that, okay, well, I've put a ceiling in there, I've put lights in there, I've put this in there. And so that's it. Right? We're good. Story told. No, the story isn't told. Because what are you trying to get out of it? What is missing? That if somebody else was reading this story that they would miss and not get. You wouldn't get the design that you're ultimately hoping for. Right. And, and so it's kind of like this, the, the doom scrolling or the quick check. If you're just looking at an example and trying to emulate that without understanding why it is that you're doing what you're doing or why it's necessary for that information to be there even more so. Okay, I've got my lights in. I'm showing some, some ceiling devices, my, my strobes or speakers or whatever else. Okay. That's part of the story. The rest of the story is what's going on underneath the skin. What's going on in the, in the ceiling plenum. Are you, is all the conduit that's going to all of those things interfering with the duct work, or are you going to be able to install your lights or your ceiling diffusers and things like that because of all of those other things. So it's the story, but there's more to it. It's peeling back the layers of looking further and further and further into it to understanding is. Is the surface, the image that we see on the screen actually able to work? Yeah.

[Host]

So how do you fix that? Because modern practice is not designed to develop people in that way. Quick, I want to, I want an answer. Damn it.

[Cormac]

It's go back. It's. It's go backwards. Go backwards a little bit.

[Host]

There is no right. I mean, I mean that's. It's so it's just not going to happen. Like we're not. And because, because my mind immediately jumps to. Well, remember when we weren't all staring at 24 inch screens.

[Cormac]

Right.

[Host]

Or maybe two. We were looking at big mainline boards and somebody had, somebody had a giant. A big ass drawing.

[Cormac]

Yes.

[Host]

And as you walked from here to the bathroom, you saw the big ass drawings that people were, were working on and you had to go to another person's desk to talk to them. I mean, it was rare that it happened over the phone. Right. It wasn't over instant messaging. It wasn't over teams. It was, it wasn't any of that. And so conversations like it incur like, oh, I'm at Cormac's desk and he's working on elevations. Hey. Oh, I see this. What is that? Yeah, like that happened way more. That just happened. You weren't. Cormac, how much of your day do you spend in outlook? Like, who learned something by overseeing your outlook? I know you're not even in the office. Right? But they don't.

[Cormac]

Right?

[Host]

They just don't. It doesn't happen. It's so different. And we're not going back.

[Cormac]

And we're not going back. Which. That just hurts me in all sorts of different ways.

[Host]

The crazy thing is you have. And this is not you. You, Cormac. This is somebody in your position. God damn it. Why don't the kids know how to do this?

[Cormac]

Right?

[Host]

How come? How come I'm doing QC on this set and xyz, how come?

[Cormac]

And to be quite honest with you, so I wish that those people, and don't get me wrong, like, it took me a while to get to this stage and I think honestly it took me going remote mostly at the time of the starting of COVID to start to realize that there's got to be a better way to utilize what we're doing. Because we're not, as you said, we're not going backwards. We're not going to have that time. So the time is part of the project process. And so if you're going through and you're asking somebody to do toilet room plans. So then there's, it's like, okay, well, what is the opportunity for me to ask them the questions to get them to understand the whys that they're doing what they're doing. Today was a perfect example. We were looking at the enlarged toilet room plants and like, okay, I see the, the, the way that you have the, the toilets laid out and they're back to back, but they're aligned. So do you have a back to back carrier? Do you know, like, what is the plumbing? All of these other things. So you ask the questions and make sure that the internals, the stuff you don't see actually works. Do. When you, when you put the, the drinking fountain in this location, you're putting it in a six inch wall. Well, does that six inch wall accommodate the, the, the compressor and the cooler and all of this other stuff, parts of the, of, of the water fountain? And come to find out, and we were talking a little bit more. No. That we're going to have to actually add a chase in there or do a bigger wall. And all of those are fine. But these are the questions that I'm realizing because of the process of moving so quickly into, okay, you've graduated. Okay, now you're at work and here's our expectations and we want to just crank out, crank out, crank out all of this stuff where we don't stop and say, oh, how are they learning? Are they learning the right way? Are they learning at all? Are we giving them the opportunity to learn? Are we giving them the opportunity to fail and ask questions? And the answer is no in most of those cases. And so if we aren't going to do that, how are we going to be able to do that in this very, very fast pace? Hey, just to let you know, we don't have a lot of time. Like, if you thought that this particular project was going to take. I'm just going to throw out arbitrary numbers. 24 weeks. Well, guess what? We only have 18 weeks. And you're just like, well, you still have 24 weeks worth of work. Now you have to put 24 weeks worth of work in 18 into 18 weeks. Oh, and by the way, we're going to staff you with a bunch of recent graduates and things like that because of their billable rates and things like that. Okay, fine, Now I've got to do a lot of training in that 18 weeks. And so now I've got. Not only do I have screwed.

[Host]

Okay, fine. Oh, oh my gosh.

[Cormac]

Well, but I mean, it's just like, well, what other choice do you have but to do that? And so then the question is, okay, how do we work our way around this, that it's not only productive to like actually get the project done, but get the project done correctly. And the people who are new to the profession or new to the firm or have never worked on this building type before can actually learn something about it and learn from it.

[Host]

And then there's like the digital practice person inside who used to be inside me, who's like thinking of a BIM manager who's going to have to deal with the model made by somebody who doesn't know what the hell they're doing.

[Cormac]

Right? Yeah.

[Host]

Why does it take 20 minutes to open and sync and close? It's because the model's broken.

[Cormac]

20.

[Host]

How'd that happen?

[Cormac]

Wow, that's.

[Host]

Nobody knew 20 minutes would be great.

[Cormac]

Yeah.

[Host]

I saw some report recently that decent sized firms. I don't know what that means. Big firms takes 9,000 hours a year. Just opening, syncing and saving. That's how much time is being spent on that 9,000.

[Cormac]

That feels like what could you do.

[Host]

With 9,000 hours a year? Well, we've timed that's more than three full time employees.

[Cormac]

You're going to love this. So my, my Saudi project has two models. Two models are massive because we had eight buildings. Heinz. Heinz.

[Host]

Gonna say, I can't believe you only have two models.

[Cormac]

Hindsight, I'm gonna tell everybody right now, hindsight would do it differently. We would do it completely differently. And am I the one probably to blame because of the fact that all of these buildings were interconnected by two layers of basement and that was their.

[Host]

Foundation advocated for this?

[Cormac]

Well, the problem is it's like, okay, think about this.

[Host]

You didn't know what you didn't know, Cormac.

[Cormac]

We didn't know what we didn't know. We had eight buildings that the basement and sub basement were their foundations interconnected between all of them. So it's kind of like the redwoods. Right. Or sequoias that are connected together. The roots are all connected together and so they grow up. And so how would you model like eight separate sequoias? Would you model them as eight separate sequoias and then try to figure out where the match line is for their, for their root system?

[Host]

Well, that was the answer. The answer is yes. Yeah, well, well, he would learn shared coordinates. That's how. Yes.

[Cormac]

Okay. Yes. Well, there you go. But anyway, I'm not going to start to go through my justifications because at the end of the day, they were all wrong.

[Host]

It's not that they were all wrong. So, so what time? What's your time?

[Cormac]

52 minutes to open up one of our models. 52 minutes. Now we've cleaned it up a lot. It's brought it down. Now we're in kind of like the upper 30s, low 40s, depending on like your Internet speed at the time. But wow. I mean, and think about this. So say for instance, I have to get into both models. I'm obviously going to open up one first and start working on whatever it is that I need to do, information wise while the other one's opening. And I know we've sort of like diverged here, but I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's one of these kind of things. It's like, what do you do when like half your day is spent in just waiting for other things to happen?

[Host]

This is why you don't, you don't close revit at night.

[Cormac]

I don't.

[Host]

That's why you don't.

[Cormac]

I don't.

[Host]

You just leave it open. Now what could go wrong with that?

[Cormac]

I don't know. Hey, the last thing that I do is sync. First thing that I do is sync and hope that it all works out.

[Host]

It actually opens.

[Cormac]

Yeah.

[Host]

No whammies. No whammies, as they used to say.

[Cormac]

No, no, not at all. But.

[Host]

So I don't know, what were we talking about before?

[Cormac]

Oh, we were just talking about. Well, I mean it all in a way. It all has like, even, even the kind of like diverg of the revit deal is all talking about kind of like the hindsight of the way that we work, the way that we teach, the way that we are teaching our new employees how to actually function in the profession and learn and grow. Because it's really about learning, growing. Right. I mean, hindsight. Somebody should have said to me, say a BIM manager or something, hey, by the way, this is probably a bad idea because of. I think I made a pretty, I mean I weirdly made a pretty good argument about the, the whole sequoia analogy that people are like, eh, all right, well, let's do it that way. I wish somebody was.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Cormac]

Three years ago. I wish somebody slapped me in the face for you.

[Host]

So, so the, the thing to me that this just really points back to is, is how reactive this profession is and has always been.

[Cormac]

Right.

[Host]

It's like, oh, what is the workaround for this current situation? That just, that is the, the active way of thinking is what's the workaround? It's not proactive planning multiple years, months, whatever into the future. Even, even looking at somebody's future of their career kind of a thing. It's like, it's like you're, you're literally like, I went whitewater rafting with my son. And it's like the goal, if an uninformed rafter, the goal is to make it to the bottom however that happens. And it's usually via pinball. Right? It's just like, let's just bounce off the rocks. Whereas like an experienced rafter is like, okay, we already know the rapid. We've done it 18 times in our head before we even got here. We know exactly where to go forward, we know exactly where to back paddle. We know when the left goes to the left and the right goes to the right and when to stop and do all these things and get to the bottom without touching anything. And I don't, I don't feel like we do that in architecture, so.

[Cormac]

So that's a great analogy, to be quite honest with you, because you've got the experience rafter who has, has sort of understood how to guide you through and all that other stuff, and then you've got the, basically the, the seat of the pants. Let's just make it to the bottom kind of, of one. How do you, how do they work together so that, you know, not only do you know the people who are kind of like, in a way, I think that there's a level of kind of excitement and I'm blanking on a good word, but basically this like, naivety of like the people who are just trying to make it to the bottom. So like, if you think about it in the architecture project, it's just like, I'm just here for the ride to just see what I can do and see and learn and all these other things.

[Host]

That's how we're bred. That's totally how we're bred. And it's like, we're up for the challenge. O right, New challenge. Hell yeah.

[Cormac]

Exactly.

[Host]

Let's see.

[Cormac]

But then you've got that, then you've got that guide that, that, that sage, that person who's trying to just like guide everybody through and kind of understand. Look, I've been through this before, I've been through these rapids before. You know, let's figure out how to get you to the bottom safely, but then let's figure out how to like also enjoy this, but also learn a little bit too along the journey. And I don't know if we, I, I think in a way sometimes the, the experience guy says, let's just make it to the bottom as fast as we can. In our, in architecture, that is.

[Host]

And that's where technical debt becomes accrued. Right? It's like that's where you get 52 minute model opening times. Because yeah, you didn't know what you didn't know. And there now you're paying the price. You pay the price every single day.

[Cormac]

Oh yes, I do. Or never should never close the bottle down.

[Host]

So like, is there, is there a.

[Cormac]

Way out of this issue?

[Host]

Because this is, this is industry wide.

[Cormac]

It is, it is. I kind of wish I knew.

[Host]

A link to that AIA report the other day. Right. Which was like our schools training students to become useful. I don't remember the exact terminology, but it was like, are they prepared to enter the workforce?

[Cormac]

Right.

[Host]

And there's always been this tension between the workforce and universities.

[Cormac]

Right? Yeah. And, and honestly, we've, we've asked this question on occasion, is what is the role of academia in architecture? If you compare it to other professional programs, doctor, lawyer, dentist, whatever, every one of them are preparing them for a role where they're able to perform their job at graduation, that they're able to start the process of sitting for their boards or whatever it is to become a practitioner, to be able to save lives, to be able to practice law. Whereas we sort of have made this pact with ourselves that when upon graduation, an architect is not an architect, it is an explorer, an adventurer, somebody who's creatively curious but can't really practice architecture in the way that our license depends on. Right. Like, you would never expect anybody fresh out of school to be able to sign and seal a document and understand the ramifications of that, of that responsibility. And so then you have to ask the questions like, is that what architecture school is really supposed to be doing? When we say we want them to be more prepared for practice? Well, what does that really mean? You've heard me say this. Are we preparing them to be architects or practitioners? And there's. Some people will get offended by it and say, oh, well, we're supposed to. It should be both. It's not. It isn't. It. I agree, it should be, but it's not. We've chosen.

[Host]

I don't even know that. I mean, should and could are completely. Because design is not a. I mean, there's, there's, there's tame problems and there's wicked problems and design is, is on the wicked side of things, which is like, there is no one way to do it. And like, oh, it is such a difficult conversation to have. You know what it's like, so it's a little easier with you, but there's definitely people who are like, well, what the hell does that mean? To me? This is, this is one of those things where there are so many things that we could do the same way over and over and over again.

[Cormac]

Right, right.

[Host]

And there are many, many things that we cannot.

[Cormac]

Yeah.

[Host]

And it's the. Every project is a special unicorn. It kind of is on some level. Every project is a little Bit different, but they're. But we. But like, to your point, like, we do have these blinders on that, like, every project starts from. I'm totally. I have to generalize. That's all we can do in this. There's just too many variables here. But it's one of those things where it's like, you know, school trains people to go work in firms and do things the way that we've always done it. They totally do. They're not training entrepreneurs to rethink the profession of architecture.

[Cormac]

But are they even teaching them to. Okay, because I don't.

[Host]

The reason I say it like that, the way I say it like that is because we aren't going to go back and do it the way we've always done it. It's never going to happen.

[Cormac]

Right.

[Host]

To. To go back and revisit how we started this conversation. Right. Which is people don't know the things that they don't know and they're not going to learn them in school.

[Cormac]

Right.

[Host]

And they're definitely not getting the opportunities to learn them in a firm because it's not convenient.

[Cormac]

And so in a way, one of the most creative professions is stifling creativity. An opportunity to try and be creative with both. Practice with. When we talk about creativity in the profession, I don't necessarily ever actually mean, what does your building look like? It's. What is the process of being able to get there in a very effective but creative and kind of enjoyable fashion? You know, there's. There's all sorts of different ways of being able to practice and practice in a way that you're like, okay, this outcome was extremely successful because of how. How creative we were in the process. And I don't even think, because in a lot of firms, and whether it's large or small or. Or anything in between, there are these. There's just the roadblocks of trying to get from point A to point B. It's. It's the. Go back to your rafting analogy of just trying to get to the end, follow the flow, get to the bottom. We'll get there. It doesn't really matter what's learned along the way. It doesn't really matter what the outcome is, is that we've got from point A to point B. Boom, done, let's move. Yeah, yeah. Without time, and let's get on to the next one. Whereas, like the guide, they're like, okay, I kind of understand point A to point B. Let's try something new along the journey. But, you know, to make it enjoyable. To make it enjoyable. But are they able to do that? Is that creativity stifled because of just what's the inherent problems within the profession?

[Host]

Yeah, yeah, It's. I have more questions than answers, obviously. I wish. I wish it was like, oh, this is easy, but it isn't.

[Cormac]

No.

[Host]

And it's disheartening to come to terms with that and just.

[Cormac]

Yeah, yeah. Because, you know, you see, like. And you'll see this because when you see people on this path, on this journey, and they aren't guided properly because the process doesn't allow them to be guided properly, they give up, they quit, they look for something different because they're not being fulfilled. Does it mean that they lack the talent? Do they lack the creativity? Do they lack the drive? Probably not. I feel in a lot of ways, I've seen a lot of junior architects that have worked with me or worked with the firms that I've worked at that have almost been betrayed by the profession.

[Host]

That's a really interesting way to put it.

[Cormac]

Yeah. Because the profession has failed them. They haven't failed the profession. They were sold something that the profession was unable to live up to. That.

[Host]

The vision. A version of it. A version real, like.

[Cormac]

Yeah. I mean, if you think about what you thought architecture was before you got into architecture, is architecture that. Not even.

[Host]

Not even. No.

[Cormac]

Not even close.

[Host]

Doesn't take very long. Think about the answer for that.

[Cormac]

Exactly.

[Host]

And to be fair, it's way better than I thought it was. And in many ways it's completely busted.

[Cormac]

Yeah. Yeah. And would I do anything differently? Absolutely not. I mean, we've. We've talked about this on numerous occasions and. And I won't. I don't know what else I would do otherwise, but it wouldn't be hard.

[Host]

To find something that's true. You like a lot of cool things.

[Cormac]

But I do really, really like this and I really enjoy doing this. I just, I kind of. Especially now that I've started to teach and starting to see all of these, like, just bright, bright kids coming into the profession, telling them. What I never, never heard from a professor is you have the opportunity to change the profession and I challenge you, I dare you to do it. Please do it.

[Host]

I like. That's an interesting way to frame it because I think most of the time the attitude is you'll be lucky and you'll be happy if you can. If you can keep up.

[Cormac]

Yes.

[Host]

Don't you think?

[Cormac]

Yeah.

[Host]

Most of the. It's something like that.

[Cormac]

Sometimes you'll think and you'll look at somebody and you'll say, man, this profession's getting. If you continue the way that you're doing, this profession is just going to eat you alive. And I think to myself, holy crap, why would we say that? Honestly, that would be the person who would be able to innovate us into a different way of thinking about doing it so that it doesn't eat you up. That it does encourage you to kind of go forward and do something more. And, and I know I'm being idealistic here, but, you know, and hopeful. But I mean, why have we created a profession that eats people up, chews them up, spits them out.

[Host]

Well, yeah. Eats their young and.

[Cormac]

Exactly.

[Host]

I, I see, I see people's posts on Entree Architect Facebook group, for example.

[Cormac]

Yeah.

[Host]

And people going through some seriously deep stuff.

[Cormac]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Host]

Terrible stuff. And it's, it's so. And it's not just inside the profession, it's in the industry. Right. It's like the.

[Cormac]

No, yeah.

[Host]

It's the next layers that you have to. It's. It's these developers, it's these contractors, it's these officials who are. Who are checking the plans. It's the. Oh, my gosh. Like there are so many layers of crap sitting on top of architecture. Like wrapping architecture.

[Cormac]

Yeah, that.

[Host]

Wow. Wow.

[Cormac]

It was funny as I was following that thread of the conversation about the HJ and what they were. What was going on with them in their. The process for getting a permit and I'm going through a permit amendment right now for a building that's been under construction for quite some time. And it's taken an excruciatingly long time to, to get to a process where basically now we're at a point where we're going to have to fight the city. That it's just like legally. Legally fight the city. Yeah. I mean, there's an opportunity. Back alley.

[Host]

But.

[Cormac]

No, I'm kidding. But anyway. Am I. But, but you're right. I mean, there's just so many layers upon layers upon layers upon layers of things. And I think that's another way of thinking about the creativity within architecture, the profession. How do you deal with things like that? How are you able to stay sane when you have to battle things like that? Battling contractors or in. And I say battle in a way of just like trying to get things accomplished in an efficient manner where both parties come out of this unscathed or at least just not like absolutely hating each other and all of this other stuff.

[Host]

Or maybe you. To make it worth it. Which is rare.

[Cormac]

Right. You know, and it's just like the, the trying to juggle all of the other things. And I still. And you've heard me say this, and I've said it on the podcast before, you know, one of the interns that when she had graduated with her undergraduate degree and she came in and she was working with us and I was taking her out to the job site and we were walking around, she sat through some OAC meetings with me and everything else. And one time we were leaving and she had said, just. I did not realize there was so much administration work in architecture. And I think in our creative minds, in our creative experiences and things like that, we're taught how to all naturally become, like, being able to navigate through all of the administrative portions of all of this stuff. And we're Talking about the AHJs, we're talking about interactions with clients and contractors and user groups and all of these other things. And that's the administrative part of it. But I mean, you still have to come to it with a very creative approach. You have to do sometimes. I. I don't mean it as demeaning as it sounds, but sometimes you have to do the thinking for other people because they don't know what they don't know.

[Host]

Sure.

[Cormac]

And so you have to do that thinking for them. And it's our creative process that does that for them, that thinks about it slightly out of the box. I mean, we're working through some challenges and some design changes through construction of some lighting. In one of my projects that we as a team started to talk about, what if we did this? Or what if we did this? What if we did this? I'm listening to all of this different input. I'm trying to understand and digest where the trades are coming from, where the contractor's coming from, where the owner's coming from, and all of these other things. And then we came up with an idea that I just took and created this little, like, turned all of everybody else's ideas into a comprehensive approach that said, okay, if this is how you're going to build it and this is how you're going to procure it, and this is how you're going to use it, this is what we really should be doing to be able to accomplish that. And it's to tie it back to what we've been talking about. It's through my experience in dealing with all of these people on site over and over and over again that repetitive. That everything may be uniquely different in the project process, but it is also very similar when you're going through the process and you can learn so much by doing it over and over and over again. Okay, how do you deal with like the way that they frame this wall? Okay, you're going to frame this wall a hundred times over in your career. Okay. So you may not necessarily learn something new, but you may learn something different in the way and a technique of how you do it or. And so then you can bring that to a conversation that I had today. You know, they're rapid. They, the, the team had some diagonal bracing within a wall. I'm like, how are you dealing with that? Is the wall wide enough to deal with the flanges? Is it the, the connection points and all of that other stuff? It looks like the framing member is just barely within side the stud member. But you've got so much more than just the framing member that you actually have to deal with to make sure that it's in there. So, yeah, I'm just dealing with just a regular old generic stud wall. But is the generic stud wall being used in the right way? Thinking about all of the other things that come with it, you know, and so these are the things that kind of come up with the creativity of the craft of making sure things are coming out the way that you want them to. I was like, I'm pretty sure you don't want your base plate sticking out of the bottom of this wall because then what do you do? Like the first thing that somebody's going to say is what the hell? Or some other colorful word. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah. In, in. How do we, how do we teach that in today's profession?

[Host]

It takes time.

[Cormac]

An extremely.

[Host]

He's got time.

[Cormac]

So I sent you and I don't know if you've had an opportunity to look at it. I sent it today in one of my like pause of doom scrollings and it was a. I believe it was Peter Eisenman and I.M. pei on stage being asked some questions and believe it was Eisenman. If it was Eisenman that was the other person other than IM Pei on stage, that basically he was talking about it takes to the age of 40 to become an architect. I don't think today's young architect is going to buy off and believe that. And what he meant because he, he, he expanded upon it even further. And what he meant was, is that it's the, it's the time that it takes to gain the experience of repetition, of experiencing things over and over again, of doing things over and over again that starts to give you the Confidence of being able to do it again and again and again, but doing it at an elevated level. It's, it's in I.M. pei kind of chimed in and he was talking about, it's not that I couldn't do things when I was young. It was like I was so inexperienced that was I doing it right or was I doing it? I was just. He even said that he was. I was learning from Europe, I was learning from all of these other architects. I was basically. He was doing the, the, the skinning.

[Host]

But, but you would pro. I would probably say devouring, but.

[Cormac]

Devouring.

[Host]

Just.

[Cormac]

Exactly, exactly.

[Host]

And, and to me, like, when I think about what Eisenman's talking about there, I think he's probably knowing Eisenman, talking about someone like Eisenman.

[Cormac]

Right.

[Host]

Who is a devourer.

[Cormac]

Yes.

[Host]

Of a single subject. Like.

[Cormac]

Yes.

[Host]

Architecture I wouldn't call. It's not really a single subject, but you know what I mean? Like a comprehensive devouring.

[Cormac]

Yeah.

[Host]

And I think you're right. I think the younger generations aren't into that.

[Cormac]

Right.

[Host]

Not because. So they wouldn't buy 40. Like it just wouldn't happen by then.

[Cormac]

You know, and, and I don't. You and I have talked about this because it took us 17 years to get our, our license through life and everything else. And my weird little stance on like, I don't have enough experience to, to really call myself an architect kind of thing, blah, blah, blah, self doubt, whatever we want to call it. But it was, it was seriously just this. Do I feel like I'm just now. I mean, I, I sort of feel in a way that the level of confidence that I have in architecture now isn't because I tried to rush what I was doing. It was because I wanted to devour. I wanted to learn as much as I could and understand all the different kind of like, nuances of the little things. It's like, how do I know? Somebody asked me, how do you know how to do this? It's because I've done it enough times. You know, how do I know that? The question that I want to ask about whether or not that wall was wide enough to cover over the base plates of this diagonal bracing is. It's because I've done, I've screwed up. Like my naive self just said, oh, yeah, yeah. It's, it's a, it's a 4 inch HSS tube that's diagonally braced and it's sitting on these base plates. And I never paid attention to how big those base plates were. They're 8 inches, 4 inch HSS tube. I can put a 6 inch stud around it, right?

[Host]

Yeah.

[Cormac]

Fits perfectly fine. Everything's good. What's going to happen just now in this conversation? I can tell you that your base plates are going to be sticking out from the bottom of your, of your wall and you're not going to be able to cover them over. And then the, the client's going to be looking down and saying, hey, what's up here? And it's just like you could have made that decision a lot sooner when you realize the fact that, oh, maybe this isn't what you should have done. You should have done this. And so it's asking the questions and going back to the Heisman example, it's, it's, it's. I'm able to answer the questions because I've asked the question or had the question asked to me enough times throughout my career that the confidence and the experience level is there commensurate with being able to just Johnny on the spot answer the question. There's a lot of times where people will say, well, you know what, let me think about this. And that's great. We should, we should stop and slow down and ask. Answer those. But I'm also able to just say, hey, what are we going to do here? Everybody's eyes turn towards Cormac. What are we going to do here? And Cormac, because of his experience, is able to provide an answer that is actually probably grounded in reality.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Cormac]

No.

[Host]

So this isn't what's keeping you up.

[Cormac]

At night, but it's worth it sometimes.

[Host]

It should be. No, it should be keeping more people up at night.

[Cormac]

Yeah.

[Host]

Than, than it is, I think.

[Cormac]

Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

[Host]

Brought it back. Did you see that?

[Cormac]

He did. He did. So instead of doom. Yeah. So instead of doom scrolling. Instead of doom scrolling. Just do some doom worrying.

[Host]

Will the profession be around?

[Cormac]

Yeah.

[Host]

Leave you with a final question, something to ponder as you're trying to fall asleep tonight, basically. Oh, more questions than answers.

[Cormac]

Yes, exactly.