B (2:30)

For various reasons. But you could do the really, really touched up version where it almost looks as if you have the digital Botox.

A (2:41)

I'm actually very tired of all of these new AI features being added to everything. Have you.

B (2:47)

Yes.

A (2:48)

One of Zoom's new features is you can just fully replace yourself with an avatar. So it's like the Apple Memoji version of yourself in Zoom now. And it will follow your facial features so you don't have to be on camera. Makes it so that somebody's on camera. It's just not you.

B (3:09)

I wonder how that would fly with some of these features.

A (3:13)

Oh, my gosh. It's just like, stop wasting your resources making this stuff.

B (3:17)

What do you think it would fly real well with your clients. Okay, I bet. Cartoon Cormac, can you. What do you think?

A (3:26)

Right.

B (3:26)

And then I get to.

A (3:28)

Do I fully trust what you say? Well, everybody trust what you say. I mean, if it was Yoda or Boba Fett or something, maybe, but not, I don't know, not the Pokemon version.

B (3:44)

You do like, I don't know, like, make it sound like you're a Smurf.

A (3:49)

Yes. Oh, man. I can only imagine, like the parents back in those days having to hear that stuff on the TV every single day of the week. It just had to be like nails on a chalkboard.

B (4:00)

So, Cormac, what do you think about the direction we're going with the commissioning of the lighting of this particular area? Well, that's Smurf hific. You know what? I. I am actually a grown up, I think. I don't know.

A (4:18)

Not you, not you.

B (4:20)

Hey, so real quick. I learned something. I learned something.

A (4:27)

That's new. Tell me about it.

B (4:29)

Oh, that was kind of hurtful. That's new. Do you know that communication, when done right, is effective? I don't know if you knew that. And the reason I said was this.

A (4:42)

A headline that, that recently passed by your, your inbox or, or your, your Facebook feed or what. Where did this come from?

B (4:48)

So the new semester, as you know, has already started and we've. One of the things that we did on the after action review of last semester was really kind of talk about effective communication and kind of like the message delivery for the intent of the. So let me preface this. The projects that the students do in what we teach is ID5 and it's a group project.

A (5:18)

We need, we need more context. So ID5, who still have no idea.

B (5:23)

What you find is Integrated Design level five. And so what that does is it takes into account all of the previous iterations of like, design exercises that they've gone through, whether it's site analysis or interior or exterior or so on so forth, and it takes it to the next level. But also as part of that, there are the structures, materials and methods Classes, the H Vac classes and things like that. And they have to integrate all of that into this, the process of the, of what's called integrated design.

A (5:56)

And so, and, and at Lawrence Technical Institute. Is that the right name?

B (5:59)

Technological University.

A (6:01)

Technological University in Detroit, Michigan.

B (6:05)

Yeah.

A (6:05)

Okay.

B (6:05)

And so the. So this is really one of their first true group projects. And as we all know, that architecture is a group effort regardless of if you're a sole practitioner or not. Right. I mean, you are going to have a team of people working with you for you, you for them, you know, and so you, even in a sole practitioner mode, you are always going to be working. So this is really their first introduction to try to understand. And so last year we just sort of launched into it and really didn't kind of like sit down and break down the whole rationale about group projects, group dynamics and things like that, because we mix them up. I don't really know. I don't know, like, whose friends in the class and things like that. And so we just randomly take people and we put them into the different groups and they do a research project as their first assignment. And then it kind of like feeds into their design assignment, but it's all part of a group assignment. Last semester, I don't think we did a very good job of really communicating the intent on why we're doing a group project. And there was a lot of dissent, there was a lot of infighting.

A (7:23)

I don't wanna.

B (7:24)

Well, there's.

A (7:25)

I don't wanna work with other people.

B (7:26)

Oh, there was, there was, there was one student who just flat out basically said, why are we doing a group project? This is absolutely stupid, I hate this. And kind of went on a rant on why this is a horrible project, unacceptable. And, and so taking all of that, taking kind of the criticisms that we had about the group project and the dynamic and not really fully informing them on what the projects or what, what the requirements of the group project were. We took all of that into consideration. And as part of our kind of like preamble at the very beginning of the year, we talked about it. We really went through and talked about why we're doing group projects. And it has been night and day, honestly, between the last little context up front. Exactly. And, and, and it, it's important. And the reason why I wanted to bring that up is, is it was just one of these things that it's just like we, we talk about this all the time on successes with the project teams and project dynamics and things like that. And when you just Kind of like throw people in and out of projects. Sometimes they're there just kind of as triage. Sometimes they're there because they're trying to fill some time because they're working towards like the next project and you don't really get a sense of ownership of the project. And so when you're always, when you are able to take the time to set the expectations for the team and really kind of explain to them what the end goal is and kind of like how they fit into this and what they should be getting out of this and what do they want to get out of this? It, it seems to work out so much better. I know, newsflash. But I mean it's just one of those things that, and especially since these are, you know, 20 year olds, 21, 22 year olds, a few older folks in the, in the mix. But I mean for the most part these are our kids who've really not done a whole lot of like group projects to, of this extreme and to like really kind of like lay out the, all of the expectations both from them and then really kind of give them agency to create their own internal structure to be able to do that. It, it's just so night and day and it's, it's so refreshing to see. I mean, not to take anything away from the extraordinarily talented kids from the last semester, but it's, it, it honestly. And I see the, the, the, the involvement of everybody in the work effort. Effort. I see the, the kind of like the desire to make sure everybody's active and engaged from them, not even from us. I mean, I was sitting there yesterday and we were talking to one group and this, this girl kept like saying and I think we need to do this. And I was like, I was gonna say that, but it was just, you kept looking at like, you know what? I, I don't even honestly need to be here. Like, you guys have this structured really well that it's a good fluid dynamic of the team and, and it seemed like all of the teams. And so I guess what I'm getting at is that it's a, it's a, it's an interestingly positive. Let's, let's be honest with you. My last semester was my first time in the teaching mode. Learning how to, to just teach was one of those. And then sitting back and saying, okay, what can we do better? What can I do better? What kind of listening should I need to be, should I be doing to kind of help foster them and taking all of that Experience from the last group had really taught me what we needed to do to improve. It's. It's. Honestly, it's night and day and it's great. It's great. That's what I'm getting.

A (11:19)

Here's what kind of feedback you got that made you make this adjustment, that helped you make this adjustment.

B (11:25)

Last time around, there were a lot of people who sort of hid in the shadows and really didn't actively engage in the project, because they didn't. I don't know if they understood the process or agreed with the process, so they sort of fought the process. And when you make it clear what the process is, what the needs are of the team, kind of frame it really in a way. I mean, one of the great things about what LTU does is LTU is a more engaged bridge between practice and academia. Kind of like looking back at our past episodes and kind of like that disconnect of academia to practice. I mean, this is one that it really is trying to create more experienced practitioners when they're coming out. And that's just understanding all of the. Let's just say, the constraints in everything else that we have to deal with on an architectural basis. But in this particular case, it's more about teaching them how to deal with those constraints in a group manner. Meaning that you don't have to do it all yourself. Meaning that they're like, how do you deal with the structural engineer? What do you. What are the things. What is the conversation that you need to have with all of your engineers, your client and everyone else? And I'm seeing that that conversation is actually happening amongst the team. You know, early on, we've broken up into teams and they're doing things like one's doing internal ecologies and external ecologies. One would. Internal meaning. Like they're looking at a specific type of, like, reuse or. Why am I blanking? I'm the teacher supposed to be thinking about these things. But then also some of the external things like zoning and codes and what the. What demographics, how demographics affect it and. And all of the other things. And so to see them kind of like actually work effectively together for the first time that they've. They've done it on at this scale, really kind of like laying it out. I'm. I'm pleasantly surprised. Pleasantly surprised.

A (13:39)

I can only imagine where they're coming from, which is. We've all had group projects that were the worst.

B (13:45)

Yes.

A (13:46)

In quotes. And they're either the worst in. I mean, usually it has to do with your team and their accountability and their responsibility. And I mean, architects are typically high performers. And so therefore you're usually the one stuck doing the work of three of those individuals who aren't doing something. And you're getting graded on it as a team effort. And you know your team is not perfect performing.

B (14:12)

Right.

A (14:13)

And what do you do? You're going to take it upon yourself to ensure that you get the best grade you possibly can and shoulder the load of others. And so you go, you go into an architecture class and it's the first one and you can only assume it's going to be like that. And, and so for you to lay that out ahead of time is, is super important.

B (14:33)

Yeah. And, and what's interesting is it kind of put again, agency on them to kind of do their own self governance. And they're doing a fantastic job of, of it where they'll say, okay, I'm going to take the lead on basically doing a run at laying out the cartoon set of graphics so that when you're doing your research on the zoning requirements, you're going to plug it into this. And so you flip through and you would think that, okay, you've got a group of eight to nine people that we have, and it could be, it's a big group actually, and each of them are doing their own thing that you would think that, oh my gosh, this is going to look like not only is the content going to be all over the place, but then the content is also going to look all over the place. And we have six teams of eight to nine, and we've got 54 students and almost every one of them there, there's some that are, are tweaking, but they've got a lot of really good information. So they're just trying, like, struggling with how to like, properly format and deliver it. What is the narrative of all of this, like, data that I've collected, but all of them have taken the lead of like, this is how we want it to look, this is how we want it to present, this is how we want it to flow. We want to make sure that like we say this narrative before we say this narrative and how that kind of flows together. And again, it's just one of these things that I'm just like, pleasantly surprised at, like the, the kind of like ownership that they had taken so early on, which leads me to believe that there's, there's going to be somewhat similar effects when we get into kind of like the design and the design portion of the assignments. The fun stuff. Is like, everybody's going to want to contribute and we want everybody to contribute. We're going to make them actually smaller groups once we get to that point. Because, you know, don't tell them.

A (16:34)

Don't tell them yet.

B (16:35)

Have you ever, have you ever been on a project where you have nine designers? It would.

A (16:42)

That would be the worst. That would be the worst.

B (16:44)

Nightmarish. And I know that you've been on projects of like the. The term design by committee, so I know I have. And just, it's kind of nightmarish.

A (16:55)

So it's really hard to make decisions when you have a team that big without any established decider at the top of that to say who's gonna actually curate all of the possibilities into what gets presented, how it gets said. And with a group that big, I mean, I'm really surprised to hear your groups are that big at this point. I mean, I guess divide and conquer for the scope really makes a lot of sense for the amount of information you're talking about. But yeah, making decisions in a group that big, I mean, when an architect goes in and works with a client, you may have multiple people on your team, but your team is the one synthesizing all of that stuff into architecture. And of course those people need to feel and be heard. And that stuff needs to make its way in. But how it's going to make its way in is kind of, that's your choice, that's where you bring the expertise. And so you know that when you're sitting in a group of 30 people, I mean, that's another kind of interesting piece of context when you talk to your students, right. Is like, look, you've got eight people now, but you're going to be on smaller teams, but you're also going to be on much bigger teams, massive teams. And so, yeah, massive teams. Right. And disconnected massive teams. Right. You, you meet with this department this day and you meet with another department the next day, and you meet with the administration at the end of all that, and then they are making decisions on those departments behalf and not communicating that back to them. Right.

B (18:29)

You're bringing up so many horrible memories. Yes. Right.

A (18:34)

And, and so it's interesting. Okay, so this brings up two things for me. This brings up these two things. The first one is, I can't tell you how many times recently, like in the last two weeks. But also before that, of course, I've been so disappointed in the lack of context given around this is how we're doing things. And, or just just to understand why so it is why, but also how and why I should care and why does this matter? And all those things. And it. And so going back to your very first statement that communication makes a difference. Right? When delivered properly can make a difference. It is such a good reminder for everybody listening and for everybody who's not listening, please provide as much context as possible. Because taking that kind of empathetic stance and saying, because people delivering the information, I think, aren't stepping into our shoes as receivers of what context do we have? And we do not have the context of the person in charge of delivery. And so even if it's repeating information, it's still beneficial for those who haven't heard it. You can't not repeat it just because some people have heard it or understand the context and because the ones who don't are at a huge disadvantage. And there's been so many times where information has come at me recently, and I'm like, why? And there's no possibility to say that out loud in that moment to make that happen, because the environment didn't allow for it. And so then I'm just, like, sitting there frustrated. And what happens when you're frustrated and you're sitting there and you're receiving? You, like, shut down. You just tune out. Because it's like, I'm still back there. I'm still back there.

B (20:25)

The thing that you said three seconds ago, back in my mind, I'm like, I'm still stuck on the why? Why are we. Yep.

A (20:32)

Right, right. And so I guess my encouragement for you as an instructor is to keep checking in with these groups and saying, are we understanding? Why do you have what you need? Are there new concerns that have come up? Because this is one of the things that doesn't get addressed properly in group projects, period, is, hey, how's it going? Right. Like, there's just this assumption that it's going to be fine in the end, like, that the project will be completed. Actually, that's not my job. That's your job to figure all that out. And I think if you really want this to be successful, you have to keep doing that every week, every two weeks, whatever the cadence is, so that these students get a voice that's not just the people they're frustrated with, because that is still going to happen. Even though it seems to be going swimmingly right now. Things are going to come up and they need the safe space to be able to say, Joe really isn't pulling their weight, and they need to clue you into that so that you can intercept and Have a conversation with Joe about these things. I feel like I can't believe how many group projects go like they're just release the hounds at the beginning and then we'll see what happens at the end at the final project. And it's like well somebody's dying because they're shouldering all the load. And then there's other people who are like man, it's so cool that other person's doing all the work for me. I didn't even have to do it.

B (21:55)

Right.

A (21:55)

Right.

B (21:56)

So I'll tell you, and you've probably heard me like little on my little iPad here that you couldn't see. So I was sitting in kind of our, our, our check in reviews that we have with them. So not only do we have our kind of like twice a week check ins where we go from desk to desk with group of them and just kind of sit there and talk about the process and all that other stuff and they ask any questions that might be tripping them up or anything else. But then we want them to go through a kind of like a dry run halfway through to just see where they are with like data collection and assemblage and do they, are they thinking about it in the right way? And so every single one of them kept like diving into here's all of here's what we know kind of thing. And so there's, there's one, so there was one group actually this happened on like every group. But I'll, I'll pick on one group specifically right now. One group. One of their internal ecologies was place making. And so they start talking about the, this, the precedence that they were looking at for place making and everything else and they just immediately dive in. And so I hold up and I don't know if you can see this. You can see it with my little.

A (23:13)

What is place making?

B (23:14)

So I kept doing that every time because basically I was just like you're, you're leaning into this, you're, you're immediately diving into all of the what's or, or the, the I guess the justifications of what it is but not what it actually is. Not the big idea, the big picture. And, and really that's exactly what you're saying is, is like provide the context first. We're going to jump into a lot of information but, but we need to set the stage. We need to talk about the context of what it is that we're going to be talking about. And so every single one of them really kind of like missed the boat and it rightfully so because they've got so much data that they were pulling together that they were trying to figure out exactly what I know, like how to present all of it. And so again, first dry run, they trying to figure it out. But I just wanted them to always remind them that give me the context first. Start with the big idea, big picture. Say this is why we're here and this is what we're talking about. Let me kind of explain to you. And then here's all of my justifications for that, you know, thing.

A (24:23)

So the data is the easy part. It's like, okay, I know what I have to do now, I'm going to go execute on that. But what you're talking about is like, oh, before we take a step forward, we actually need to take a step back.

B (24:36)

Yes.

A (24:37)

And we need to look at this at a zoom out. We need to look at this from the 30,000 foot level. Like, why does this even matter? Because I think it's. That's awesome that you're doing that. Because it is super important to reframe this as like, this isn't busy work just for busy work sake.

B (24:54)

Yes, exactly.

A (24:55)

It's really important to understand why this. Because you can make an assumption that you know what place making is and it's based on data, for example. Right. Oh, oh, well we have to do this because here's what the data says and that may not be the case at all. It actually might be like, here's all the data we should just ignore because it has inherent biases in it or whatever, or it doesn't matter for this or whatever. And so I love that because it's especially just holding it up. This reminds me of the old in excess music video. Card after card after card, just throwing the cards on the ground. But it's like you can keep being that person to say like, okay, here's a cue card.

B (25:37)

Right?

A (25:37)

That's exactly what it is. Here's a cue card. Have you asked this question before you even started? And that's great because again, if they're not used to that, it's easy to transition into the busy work, the data collection, because that literally is the easy part. I think there's so many people in architecture who have defaulted to the, the busy work, which is, oh, I'm just going to process emails today because I have a boatload of email.

B (26:03)

Right.

A (26:03)

And well, is that, is that really like the most impactful thing that you could be doing? Of course, you're like keeping the machine moving and stuff like that. But do we take the time to step back and say like, what's important and why is it important and how is it going to. How, how is this affected by the partee diagram? How does this affect the parti diagram? Like those kinds of big picture guiding principles, things for projects.

B (26:29)

Absolutely. And yeah, so yeah, I mean I in to kind of take it like one step backwards with students. Students, they're all, they're presenting to their architecture professor. Right. And their architecture professor is the one who gave them the assignment. So they're kind of playing to. Oh, I'm just talking amongst architects. And I was like, the most important thing really is to understand that almost all of your presentations are rarely to architects. They're to your client, they're to your user groups, they're to communities, they're to all of these other people. And there may be some people who actually know what you're talking about. But if you launch into it with all, inundate them with all of this, the data collection, the busy work stuff that you were talking about and don't really talk about. By the way, here's where we're like, here is the context of what we're going to talk about, here's why we're going to actually talk about it. Now let me give you some support of this, the whys, the context. And, and so trying to explain to them that you got to understand that you, that one of the big problems that architects have is that they gear most of their conversation around thinking that they're presenting to other architects when they're really actually presenting to anybody but architects.

A (27:56)

Yeah, right, Absolutely. Okay, so you ready for the second thing that this brought to my mind? This one is this, this is surely going to either derail us or, or put us even farther into this curve. Okay, so let's apply this to the profession. Let's apply this to a career track.

B (28:13)

Okay.

A (28:14)

In the profession. So how many times have you been absolutely clear in your professional trajectory where you're going and why and why you're going there?

B (28:27)

I feel like you just put me on the spot.

A (28:29)

There's probably not a number. There's probably not a number.

B (28:31)

Yeah, there's not a number. There's.

A (28:34)

It's probably closer to zero.

B (28:36)

I was going to say it's closer to zero. Funny enough. There's probably assumptive times where I thought I was on the right track only to find out that I wasn't.

A (28:45)

Or you thought you knew where you were going.

B (28:47)

Where I was going.

A (28:48)

But how many times is it like Legitimately and seemingly intentionally ambiguous. A lot more than raise my hand, hey, what do I need to do to get to the next level in whatever? Just keep doing what you're doing. Yeah, you just keep doing what, what, what that is, or, or we'll give you that information when. When you need it kind of thing. And so, like, this intentional ambiguity of not providing the correct context and, and therefore just keeping people in the dark and keeping them not in the know. And, and I don't know how intentional that is. It is definitely sometimes intentional. Right. I think a lot of times there's so many ways to get there. It's like, well, it's really hard to pick one. Or it's like, well, you're going to do it like, I did it and so. Well, is that appropriate anymore? Like, you did that 30 years ago. I don't know if that's appropriate anymore. And if you're not going to follow my path, then you should get out of here kind of thing. Like, we see all kinds of versions of this, and it's again, like, this is crazy making to me that this still happens in the industry, but it happens. It's happening right now. Like, this is literally happening all over the place right now. Where there's not enough context, there's not enough. Why is this important? There's not enough stepping back and saying, is this still even appropriate to do in this day and age? And so I feel like a lot of people are at a huge disadvantage, just like you realize that your students were by not giving them that context up front of like, well, here's actually why group projects are very important and why we're going to do it this way is, is going to develop you in this way so that you have the skills you need when you step out of this class to be a more effective architect. That is seriously lacking from our, from our profession and from our industry.

B (30:51)

Yeah, I've actually kind of witnessed this continuation of the bad habit culture. And I think you and I have talked about this before, about these expectations that you should give more than what you really are contractually obligated, because that's, that's the way to get ahead. That's the way to show your commitment. That's the way to excel in all of these other things. Loyalty, your loyalties and stuff. And. And you're like, it's not. I was sitting around because another professor had made a comment. It's just like, well, don't worry about it. You guys still have, like, the weekend to work through. And I'M like, why are you doing that to them? Why, why would, because that's what they would do. Exactly.

A (31:33)

There's just this, there's, there's just like this is what I would do and therefore this is what I'm assuming they're.

B (31:38)

Going to, that's what they have to.

A (31:39)

Run with that torch.

B (31:40)

Right. That's what they have to do. And, and it's just like, shouldn't we also be teaching them proper time management, proper proper planning of a project, things like that, things that we've failed in our own career to be able to manage properly where want or at least we hope. I mean, as a parent, we are always hoping that the next generation is going to be better than our generation. Well, honestly, as an instructor, I want the next generation of architects to be better than my generation of architects or the generation that's the younger generation from, from me, the millennials and stuff. Not that they're anybody's doing a bad job. I mean, it's just, they're just doing it differently. And the expectations, this, this kind of hangover from the previous generations of these unrealistic, unrealistic like deadlines or unrealistic workloads or unrealistic ways to, you know, manage a project are just, there are no.

A (32:34)

They, they that served them at a time and it's no longer realistic.

B (32:38)

Exactly.

A (32:39)

But there's that hangover expectation like you're talking about. Oh well, that got ingrained. And so that's the way it always is and that's the way it's always going to be. And if, if that is foolish thinking.

B (32:49)

Exactly. And if, if I did it, you've got to do it. Right. But it's just like no, they, you, you really don't have to do it. I mean there are better ways of doing it. There are better ways of, it's just like I, I, I hear students saying, well, I don't really want to because a lot of almost, I would say probably about a good 50% of the students in the class have a job and are working in, you know, part time at a firm and they're learning the same like habits that we had. And like it's, it really is up to you to kind of change those habits and make the profess by breaking that, that bad habit and going but, but it also is something that you have to learn about how to manage yourself, manage your workload, manage the schedule, manage all of the, and you were kind of talking about like spending your time checking emails and doing all of these things and Understanding all of the different constraints that you have going on and how to manage all of that in the context of also trying to do projects. Because I think I, I saw some real not too long ago that was, well, two different reels. One that was some that just sent me and then another one it's just like kind of like doing a diagram of your, your day. It's a meeting here, meeting here, meeting here, meeting here, meeting here. And that takes you all the way to like 5, 30. And then they're like when you can start and then that's exactly. And then that's when you start working. And then there was another one. It's just like talking about time that people spend and it's just like they were using their arms as like the, the hour and minute hands and they were lawyers and they kind of pointed us like three hour day and then doctors, eight hour day and all these other ones. And then they got to the architect and they just, just kept spinning their arm around non stop. And it's just like. And that's our day. I'm like, it is such a, a damning thing to admit to the fact that we just have this inherent burnout of ourselves. This expected burnout of ourselves.

A (34:55)

Well, yeah. And the older I get, the, the more I truly feel the overwhelm. And like I'm. That I'm crushed by it.

B (35:05)

Yeah.

A (35:05)

And that overwhelm is what we have been trained to do. Just be overwhelmed, like deal with it. Yeah. There's a lot of stuff to do. Do all of it. Do more. If you could do more, you should do more. It's just like that has been a mantra of this profession since we started, since we were in school.

B (35:22)

It's just like, hey, we're expecting, I've got a meeting at such and such a time. And we're expecting some input from our user groups at such and such a time. And I know that it's a really short period of time for you to turn around some iterations of some plan changes, but can you do that by X amount of time? And you're like, what?

A (35:42)

And architects are up for the challenge?

B (35:44)

Yeah, I was going to say. And the answer usually is, okay, sure, sure. Yeah, yeah, we can do that. Yeah, not a problem. I mean.

A (35:49)

Yes. You know, without actually thinking about it, without actually thinking through, oh, what is this actually going to take? And that programming does catch up with you. Like that's what I'm trying to say. Through this kind of now I truly feel the overwhelm because I have A hard time saying no to things. And that bites me. Like, that's a disservice to myself. Or, hey, are you willing to do this thing? Oh, it doesn't pay anything, but we really need it. Like, it would really help if you could do this thing, if you could deliver this message for us, if you could do this project for us, whatever those things are. And it's like, oh, and you want to help. And so you're like, huh, how could I make this work? How can I justify this to myself? So that I may be getting paid very little, or I'm not going to get paid at all, but I still want to do this thing because they need it. And we do this to ourselves all the time. And then. And then you kind of step back and you're like, hey, wait a second, like, I don't even get a weekend. I don't even get to, like, sweep the porch because I don't have enough time to do the things that need to happen around here, whatever it is. And. And that overwhelm can be very debilitatingly crushing.

B (36:55)

We call ourselves a service industry, right? And we're providing a service to our clients. The, the problem is, is that part of that whole process is being service to ourselves. And that's the part we seem to forget the most, is being a service to ourselves.

A (37:11)

You know, the word I think of is agency. Like, I feel like we forget our sense of agency or it is stripped from us, or it is trained out of us or whatever it is to be a worker bee and like, really, like, just do. Do the hard work and you're up for the challenge, and you've got great ideas and you're thinking of, like, critical thinking skills are incredible, and, and you're not taking care of yourself, and you don't have the agency to say no or say, oh, let me think about that before I answer, or run that through a few other people that I really trust before I make an answer.

B (37:43)

Well, you say that in a kind of chuckle because it's just. It's just like, oh, I've got an opportunity to do, like, a little design exercise that'll be fun, you know, and you want to do that. And you. But you also realize that by accepting that you're forgetting all of the either other things, other commitments that you already have, the fact that you don't have any mechanism in place to get paid for that, all of these other things, and you just, you're just looking at, ooh, I've got a creative opportunity to do something fun and you know, you forget the reality of things.

A (38:18)

So like this, this like application of the context setting up front to the profession, it's not easy. I don't want to make it sound like it's easy because there are so many way to that firms that teams, that individuals do things and have done things to accomplish whatever those goals are. But can you imagine what it would be like? And I'm not saying like we need to reorganize the profession with rigor and do all of these things, but you are talking about the success that you see already in a very short period of time with your students by providing this context of why, what would that do for our profession? I mean, can you imagine what, what would be different about. Could be extremely. Because think about like, okay, here's a reel. You mentioned a reel. I think I sent you this one too. There's this, this British guy who's, who's playing both sides of the, the conversation and he talks about how when you graduate, he's like, you're going to be a designer, right? Well, yeah, I'm going to go, I'm a designer. I'm going to go work at a design firm and I'm going to do design. Well, you're not going to do design. You're going to support the designers. And it's like, what do you mean I to do design? Well, you're going to, you're going to draw these toilet details and you're going to do this stuff because this is stuff that they don't want to do. And what do you. So you only hire designers. This is what architecture firms do, right? They hire designers so that they can do menial labor.

B (39:42)

Right.

A (39:43)

There's like this total disconnect there. Right. But can you imagine what it would be like if students actually knew that before going into the, before they sign up for a five year university, before they say I'm going to be an architect before they become licensed. Like there's so many steps along the way still where you, you start to see that stuff. But the reality of what you actually get to do and what, and then again why that's important to do some of those things once you graduate and actually learn how to be an architect. Because you're not going to learn that in school. I mean there's, there's a lot of kind of friction in the system. Right. But at the same time, I think we would have a lot less people becoming architects if that were the case.

B (40:23)

Do you remember a time and this was sort of technically before our time, but it sort of existed when we were. We were coming into the profession of architecture draftsmen. We had architects and we had draftsmen, and the architects did design and handed it off to the draftsman and worked with the draftsman to talk through detailing and talk through design intent and things like that. But it was really kind of up to the draftsman.

A (40:55)

It was a. Yeah, it was a team sport in very real sense in that way.

B (40:58)

Right.

A (40:59)

There were people who did this thing. There were people who did that thing. But those people didn't go to architecture school typically. They went to, like. They went to a trade school that was like a drafting.

B (41:08)

Yeah.

A (41:09)

Mechanical drafting or architectural drafting.

B (41:11)

And you've got projects processed through the system. And I've seen plenty of the documents that were created under that system, and they were well thought out, well done. Not necessarily as, like, bloated and obese of a set that we have now. But now we've taken those designers who just graduated from architecture school who want to be a designer, and we've turned them into draftsmen, you know, and unfortunately, there's so much time that they spend in the world of being a draftsman that there's. There's struggle with the connection of what it is to be an architect because they're so busy doing busy work. And there'll be people who say, well, yeah, yeah, that's part of the growth process. That's part of the rigor that you need to learn and all that other stuff. And it's like, well, is it? Is it? I mean, there's. There's been hundreds of thousands of buildings done over the course of human history that were done in the process of architect and drafting support that are still standing to this day. And now you have architects who aren't necessarily trained in all of the drafting techniques to be able to pull together a good set. So they've just like. And it shows in some of the work output. But it's just like, what happened to that, like, what happened to that, like, idea that then the architect who's getting hired as a designer can actually learn that part of. I was almost about to call it the trade, but the profession.

A (42:52)

Well, and think about now how much drafting work is being outsourced. Yeah, yeah, that's another. That's another side of this. Of this equation. Right. Which is. It's super. I don't know. I think. I think it's actually a really bad thing for our profession, but I can see why people are doing it. The quality is there because you're talking about people who are trained to do a specific thing and do it really well and bring value to that job. And it's not looked down upon like it's a necessary part of the delivery project. Delivery process. But it's, it's like, well, we, we don't have the skills here. We aren't training people to do that. We're training them for something else. And then we're shoving them into that job and they're becoming. Now they're a BIM technician. Right. Or we called it CAD draftsman. We called it what, like there's been different, different versions, but now it's like this. It's a technical role for people who weren't trained to do technical roles.

B (43:52)

Exactly.

A (43:53)

Right.

B (43:54)

Yeah.

A (43:54)

I mean it's. And, but I do think that this kind of outsourcing of this part of the process, I mean obviously this is not where the value of architecture lies.

B (44:02)

Right.

A (44:02)

It truly doesn't. So what are we going to do about it as a profession for ourselves, for the next generations of people in our profession? Oh, it's just not our problem. We're old.

B (44:14)

Yeah.

A (44:14)

I don't know. I think that's what a lot of people do is. Oh, they'll, they'll have to figure that out. It's going to be a new constraint in business that they're going to have to figure out. But we're not leaving them in a great place to do that.

B (44:24)

Well, I mean, if you think about it like the pathway forward is, is interesting beyond, let's just say beyond our type. You know, when we have AI coming, we have all of these other things. And so will it be able to assist the architect in being able to do less of the, you know, like task oriented things and more of like, you know, what an architect is supposed to be doing with designing and ensuring that, you know, the details are thought through, ensuring that the materials that are chosen are right for the details. And the design that you're trying to implement and really kind of like work and think through those processes that, and not so much on. Because if you think about it, all the different things that we do, soul practitioners, God love them because they're doing all of it is basically you're doing the interface with the client with, interface with the engineers, interface with manufacturers, picking out colors, picking out materials, doing like the concept design work, doing the detailed design work. Then you're doing the construction documentation and you're doing all of these other things and they treat in, in not and it doesn't really matter if it's a sole practitioner or a large thousand, multi, multiple thousands of personnel. They still sort of do that as the process and that makes it an inefficient process.

A (45:49)

I mean, but look what you learned through doing that. Right?

B (45:53)

Look, I mean I, as a, as a generalist who's done all of that and in a way still does some of that just because of my own internal process of how I do things, I totally agree with you that like I have learned how to think through all of the different constraints.

A (46:12)

It is thinking.

B (46:12)

Exactly.

A (46:13)

Doing that is thinking.

B (46:15)

Doing that is thinking. Yes.

A (46:16)

Problem solving. It is figuring it out. It's not just the final product. Right. Which is again, like we should reinforce that because sketching is thinking, talking is thinking, presenting is thinking, drafting is thinking, modeling is thinking. And through that process is how the project actually gets figured out. And it's interesting to me that we are willing to outsource that thinking because with AI coming this whole idea of Earth here or whatever, it's not gonna do all that. And it can't. It is purpose built to do a thing and then you are either going to have to tell it explicitly what to do or you're going to have to clean it up. You've got to do one of those things because it is so specific in what it can do. Well, it can't tie those things all together. It can't think about the building code and the client's off comment with body language that happened in that room that one day, like right after lunch and all the versions of that that eventually make their ways into the models and the drawings and the, the light bulb that went off in the shower in the morning of how you're going to put that detail together or how you're going to orient that wheelchair lift so that it fits in the space or like weird stuff like that. It's not going to do that.

B (47:45)

Yeah, no. And, and you'd be surprised when it does, if it tries to do it. The surprise of like how it's going to do it. And if we're not training as like to the point you're making is like, if we're not training people to think that way and to think beyond all of that, you are going to just basically get the mess that it creates and not be able to think through how to correct that.

A (48:07)

Yeah, well, this is like the AI coding stuff, right? It's like. Well, it's vibe coding. It's taking it like people and companies have fired a bunch of, or laid off or however you want to say it, a bunch of coders. Because the AI can do it. Well, now they're hiring them back because the people who are still there can't debug the code that the AI systems write because they don't understand the code. And so now you actually have to hire people who understand the code to maybe even start over. Right. Or debug the code that was written, which is probably just as painstaking as writing it the first time. And so that's the same thing for architects. To me, you still need to have those people who can do that understand it. And how do you get to the understanding is through the doing exactly like you. You don't. It's not magic. Like, this stuff just doesn't show up one day. And there's not the Matrix, man. Like, it didn't get plugged in. And I know kung fu now. It doesn't work like that. You've got to do the thing. And, like, there's this constant pressure, and it's not just on architecture. It's everywhere. To go faster, do more, faster, Right? Yes, man. I think it's the opposite. It is like, do less, take longer, make it count.

B (49:21)

Slow down, do it for real through it.

A (49:23)

Yeah, slow down.

B (49:25)

Yes.

A (49:25)

And like, the market just doesn't accept that.

B (49:30)

Right.

A (49:30)

And I don't know why, like, you do not get a better product faster by doing less, especially with the stuff that houses people and you go to work.

B (49:43)

I know this is just slightly off topic of it, but we were. We were sitting in the office the other day and we were talking, and we were just kind of. A friend of ours just got back from a European trip and. And he was talking about Italy was kind of more or less shut down for the month of August. And we were. We were just. We trying to wrap our minds around this concept.

A (50:09)

Heard of that. That sounds amazing.

B (50:10)

This. This concept of, like, slowing down. And. And it takes me back to this one interview that I. I watched with this one CEO who was an Italian clothing manufacturer. And they were just. They were interviewing him and they were talking to him about, well, if you adopted more of, like, the American mentality of, like, three shifts and, you know, working people longer and blah, blah, blah, and all this other stuff, you'd be richer. And here he is, and it's him and his wife being interviewed, and they're just like, why, you know what? Don't I. I have enough money. And it was just this really strange to you.

A (50:48)

You wouldn't be happier.

B (50:49)

You know, Exactly. It was this it was this strange concept of like, I don't need more to be happier. I was like, the thing about it is, is that I'm in business not only to, yes, obviously sell my clothing, but I'm also taking care of all of these people and giving them a job. And they actually closed down for two hours a day. People don't go, like, just run into the break room, grab a real quick 15 minute lunch and then run back out to their desk and, you know, keep working. They go home, they make food for themselves and their family, they take care of themselves. And they were asking, it's just like, well, when was the last time you took. It was a sick day. And they're like, I haven't. Because I rest, I relax, I take care of myself. I take care of myself not only through the day, but also I get this nice long vacation month and I'm, I'm healthy. And you're just like, I don't think that that would fly in America, in American culture, because we don't have that concept. We don't, we think, seem to think that grind, grind, grind, grind, grind. And it comes, it is grand culture. And so it goes back to like what we were talking about a little bit earlier is like this, this opportunity for the next generation to rethink the way we do business and think about what's important. Not only obviously doing a good job and being able to produce really nice, well thought out, well designed buildings and well detailed and everything else so that you can hand it off to the contractor and they can do a job that is clear and understandable so that they can build it without, you know, having thousands of RFIs and stuff. Sure. But how is that achieved? That's through, clear headed, through, well rested through. Not like overstretching yourselves and things like that. The things that we just don't do right now, both as a profession and as a society.

A (52:45)

It's the scarcity mindset.

B (52:47)

Yes.

A (52:47)

That there's not enough work to go around, there's not enough hours in the day, there's not enough this, that, the other thing, and this literally has been driven by this race to the bottom of, oh yeah, we'll do it for less, we'll do it faster for less. And then there's somebody else who's always willing to say that there's somebody. And the project suffers for it, the client suffers for it. They don't realize it. They don't realize that they brought that on themselves. Right. But they wanted it done cheaper, they wanted it done faster. Whatever those things are. And there wasn't that clear head in the room that said, like, I'm not going to do that, because here's why. Here's why I'm not going to do that.

B (53:27)

Exactly.

A (53:28)

Race to the bottom. Race to the bottom. So what are we going to do about it, people? What are we. What, what are our. Like, this would be an amazing course to take at a university. And. And I've actually talked to some people about this kind of reimagining the profession with new constraints, with new rules, with new mindsets. And I mean, we live in a capitalistic society that is a grind culture. Right? We do, but doesn't mean you need to participate in it. It doesn't mean that you have to do it here. You can literally go do it just about anywhere. And so are you willing to do what it takes to do that or have the values that go against the grain? Because, I mean, I think this is super important stuff. Can you imagine? I would love to see what people who haven't lived through it, because those of us who have would probably be the first ones to say, oh, that would never work.

B (54:21)

Exactly right.

A (54:24)

Because that hasn't been our reality. But. But for people who haven't had those constraints and could design something from scratch, I think there would be some really interesting solutions in that space.

B (54:33)

But in turn, like you saying us that, oh, that would. That would never work. We never stop to say why? Oh.

A (54:43)

Oh, absolutely, yeah. I love this, like, pregnant pause at the end. I think we should leave it right there.

B (54:52)

Perfect. All right, we'll do that.

A (54:54)

Because silence says a thousand things. Right?

B (54:57)

Whatever that thing is.

A (54:59)

See you next time.

B (55:00)

See you.