#380 - The Vibe

Summary

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Archispeak #380 – The Vibe

Hosts: Evan Troxel & Cormac Phalen
Date: November 17, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Evan and Cormac dive into the elusive quality of "the vibe"—that intangible resonance which makes both music and architecture impactful, personal, and sometimes polarizing. Drawing connections between music, architectural design, and personal taste, the hosts reflect on how and why certain buildings (and sounds) strike a chord with some people but not others. The bulk of the episode is also a virtual architectural tour, as Evan recounts a recent work trip to Iowa, sharing detailed first impressions of several significant buildings and reflecting on firm culture, design decisions, and the profound role of resonance in an architect’s work life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Resonance, Vibration, and Taste

[03:38–16:47]

• Introduction to the Notion of Vibration:

  • Evan and Cormac riff on the idea that everything (music, teamwork, architecture) is about vibration and resonance.
  • Reference to Apple TV’s "Invasion," Steely Dan’s Skunk Baxter, and the metaphysics of music.
  • “Everything is vibration. Everything.” — Evan [03:50]

• Subjectivity of Taste:

  • Cormac shares an anecdote: While touring Detroit, he and his sister debate the aesthetics of new construction—what he finds appealing, she finds ugly.
  • Both hosts liken this to differing music tastes and discuss how architectural styles resonate (or not) with individuals.
  • “What makes somebody like something more than something else? As architects, we’re always trying to figure this out…” — Cormac [08:44]

• Architects as Antennas:

  • Drawing from Rick Rubin’s ideas, Evan describes creative people as “antennas,” tuned into different frequencies:
  • “Every human being is an antenna... and you are going to tune into certain frequencies and...out others.” — Evan [09:35]

2. Authenticity, Art, and Subjectivity

[11:22–16:47]

• Uniqueness of Creative Expression:

  • Rick Beato’s interview with David Gilmour is cited: Even playing the same song, every person brings a unique timbre and sense of timing, analogous to how studio assignments yield diverse outcomes.

• Art’s Dual Nature:

  • Evan sums up: “That’s art, though. That’s the definition of art. It’s going to repel some and attract others.” [13:08]

• On Trying to Please Everyone:

  • Attempts to create universally appealing work are futile; pop culture references and music analogies abound (Depeche Mode, “don’t judge a book by its cover”): not everyone needs—or will—like what you make.

3. Iowa Architecture Tour – First-Hand Reflections

[17:16–50:48]

Steven Holl’s Visual Arts & Art Building West (University of Iowa)

[19:11–29:11]

• Visual Arts Building:
  • Evan describes it as visually interesting (“light silver metal screen building”) but sterile and echoey inside. “It just didn’t land for me...it felt kind of sterile and cavernous.” [21:32]
• Art Building West:
  • Clad in Corten steel and channel glass; feels warmer and more resonant than its newer neighbor.
  • “This building, I thought, was way more successful from just an experiential point of view…” — Evan [24:33]
  • Cormac compares it to Morphosis’ work and early 90s deconstructivist architecture.

Hancher Auditorium (Pelli Clarke & Partners)

[29:15–34:40]

• Exterior:
  • Compared to a cruise ship, complete with a landscaping “wake” and sculptures of fish playing into the motif.
  • “It literally is like a cruise ship...sending out waves. There are literally sculptures of giant concrete fish.” — Evan [32:33]
• Material/Detail Highlights:
  • Notable curtain wall and wood ceiling detail where fixtures “drop down” below the surface. “A really beautiful glow of light.” [31:59]
  • Hugh (OPN tech lead/host) points out subtle but impactful lighting choices.

Downtown Campus Building (LMN Architects)

[34:58–45:34]

• Atrium and Fire Curtain Details:
  • Features rare horizontal fire curtains housed behind a metal-paneled guardrail—an unusual and impressive technical solution. “That is an incredibly unusual way to deal with isolation of atriums.” — Cormac [37:53]
• Acoustic Performance over Aesthetics:
  • Interior finishes prioritize function and acoustics over visual polish—perforated metal panels resemble unfinished gypboard up close.
  • “This is performance over aesthetics, in my opinion.” — Cormac [39:38]
• Performative Circulation & Public Engagement:
  • Circulation is on display, both for those inside and those passing the building. “It actually puts it on display…I love the fact that you can see and connect with interior uses from the exterior.” [43:08]

Firm Impressions & Professional Development

[45:34–51:08]

• OPN Architects Culture:
  • Evan was impressed by the firm’s proactive discussion on future goals and company culture, comparing it to his prior long-term employer.
  • “OPN is a cool firm...so proactive about talking about their future and where they’re going and how to get there.” [45:34]
  • Annual retreat included keynotes, panel discussions, project presentations, emotional milestone celebrations, and fun at a local “Pickle Palace” (pickleball club and event space).
• Highlights of the Retreat:
  • Guest speakers included Duane Euler of Euler Wu Collaborative.
  • Multiple offices, strong firm culture, and supportive colleagues. “If you’re looking for a firm to work at and you live in the Midwest, you might check them out.” — Evan [49:45]
  • Cormac: “You were feeling their resonance.” Evan: “I was resonating with them. I was aligned.” [50:05]

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On teamwork and resonance:
  “Isn't that the goal of teamwork—to try to get a little bit in tune? Just a little.” — Cormac [03:43]
• On creativity and inspiration:
  “Every human being is an antenna… Many people are not tuned in…creative people especially are more tuned in to certain frequencies.” — Evan [09:35]
• On art’s polarizing effect:
  “That’s art, though. That’s the definition of art. It is going to repel some and attract others.” — Evan [13:08]
• On clients’ preferences:
  “That's why we started asking them what they like before we start showing them what we think they might like.” — Evan [09:20]
• On firm culture:
  “It was really emotional for some of it, which I thought was fantastic because it shows that they're really an incredible team with some great bonds.” — Evan [47:53]
• On playfulness in design:
  “They just leaned right on it… Some say it looks like a cruise ship, and they're like, ‘Oh yeah, we're gonna double down.’” — Evan [32:52]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Resonance & personal taste: [03:38–11:15]
• Art and subjectivity: [11:15–16:47]
• On not trying to please everyone: [13:53–16:47]
• Iowa architecture tour begins: [17:16]
• Steven Holl buildings: [19:11–29:11]
• Hancher Auditorium (Pelli Clarke & Partners): [29:15–34:40]
• LMN Architects building & fire curtain details: [34:58–45:34]
• Firm culture & retreat, OPN Architects: [45:34–51:08]

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Overall Tone & Takeaways

Candid, reflective, and often playful, the episode embraces the complexity of taste, authenticity, and creative practice in architecture. Architecture, like music, is shown to be a deeply subjective, resonant, and sometimes ineffable experience, shaped by context, personal history, and open-mindedness. Through storytelling, analogies, and technical asides, Evan and Cormac spotlight both the joys and challenges of practice—and the lasting impact of a good vibe, whether in a building, a team, or a life in architecture.

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Links to referenced images and more at archispeakpodcast.com (Episode 380).

Transcript

[A]

Hey everyone, Evan here. Quick shout out before we dive in. Remember Janine Chastain from episode 334? Yep, she's the one with the apostrophe smack in the middle of her first name. But that's pretty cool, right? Janine brings a rare combination of architectural expertise and business acumen that's transforming how firms approach leadership and growth. Her willingness to share her own journey, including the challenges she's faced, makes her insights incredibly authentic and relatable. What stands out most is her genuine commitment to bridging generational gaps in our profession and creating workplaces where mentorship, open dialogue, and continuous learning aren't just ideals, but practical realities. She's doing the important work of helping firms build the internal culture and communication systems that make architectural practices not just profitable, but truly fulfilling places to work and grow. So why am I talking about Janine? Well, she's also been a podcaster for a long time. You might remember that from the episode she used to co host Practice Disrupted and she stepped back from that a little while ago. But now we are very excited that she's back on the podcast scene with a brand new show. The new podcast is called no Exceptions Taken. And yes, architects, we see what she did there. Here's Janine to tell you a little bit about it. Hi, I'm Janine Chastain and I'm launching a new podcast called no Exceptions Taken. It's a show about what it really means to lead, create and evolve in the world of architecture, design and beyond. Each episode features candid conversations with thinkers, practitioners and culture shapers. People navigating the in between moments of transformation and designing their way through change. If you care about leadership, creativity and the future of practice, you'll want to be here. The first episode drops soon. Follow no Exceptions to your Taken wherever you get your podcasts produced by Apostrophe Consulting. If that sounds like something you might be interested in, we would love it if you'd go check it out, subscribe and support what she's doing. Oh hey, one more thing. We share a lot of images in this episode and you can see those if you are watching the YouTube version of this episode. So so check for the link in the show notes. A little bit of a spoiler alert, but I got to visit some really cool architecture when I was recently on a trip to Iowa and so I think you might want to check that out. So again, check the link in the show notes so that you can watch as we're talking through this. Thanks for listening to that Preamble. Let's get on with the show. It's as loud as it gets, by the way.

[B]

What is it?

[A]

No, well, not really. But without going way over there, I was gonna say.

[B]

Is it plugged in?

[A]

It is plugged in, but it's. The volume is very low.

[B]

Here's a little Diddy.

[A]

It sounded kind of country, didn't it?

[B]

Architecture in the city.

[A]

It sounded a little contrary. Bear strings, man.

[B]

Just bare strings, I was gonna say. Was it.

[A]

Oh, you're recording. How did. How did you start the recording?

[B]

Jesus.

[A]

I thought that only I had that power.

[B]

No. And I figured I'd sneak in and start recording.

[A]

You get to hear my out of tune guitar.

[B]

Yeah, sometimes. We're always out of tune.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. Most of the time.

[B]

Isn't that the kind of, like the goal of teamwork is to try to get a little bit in tune? Just a little.

[A]

Hey, Cormac. Everything is vibration. Everything.

[B]

What actually is funny is I'm etching up on an Apple TV show called Invasion. Have you seen that one?

[A]

I have not.

[B]

It just started its third season and I didn't watch the second season. And funny you say that, because they stumbled on the vibrations and the frequencies of some vibrations of the aliens that invaded Earth and are now figuring out how to figure out what's up with the aliens. So there you go.

[A]

They are really here, by the way. And they're just. They're. They're vibrating at another level. So they're just in a dimension that you can't perceive. That's how it works.

[B]

Are they orange?

[A]

They might be. I mean, orange is a good color. I wouldn't be surprised. What's the vibration of orange?

[B]

Do you have that. Do you have that tuned on your guitar?

[A]

No, my guitar is probably not tuned to orange. But, yeah, it's interesting, right? Like, I just saw this video. Video Skunk Baxter, like, famous, Famous guitar player from Steely Dan. And yeah, he was talking about, you know, like a. A musical note. Like, why did. Why does music connect to the soul? Like, so you might be interested in this, right? Because obviously music's important and it all has all to do with vibration. Like, okay, so we're bringing this full circle in the. In the first three minutes. But. But he's. He's like, you know, you hit this, open a string, whatever, and it vibrates at a. Which is at 440. Tuned at 440 hertz. He's like, but if you. If you hit this harmonic, it's at double that. And if you Hit this harmonic. It's quadruple that. And so this is all just on a guitar neck. But he's like, but if you keep turning that up, he goes. Then it turns into heat. And if you keep turning that up, like, it turns into a color. And it's interesting, right? Because it's like, that's why music can touch your soul, is because that's what's going on inside of you, too. I just like. And what's interesting is he's a guitar player. He worked at Lawrence Livermore Labs developing with a guy who won the Note. Nobel Peace Prize for. Or the Nobel Prize. Not the Peace Prize, the Nobel Prize for. For the laser. Like, of all things. Right. So interesting laser. The Lane freaking laser.

[B]

Yeah, that's kind of interesting. And let's go even fuller.

[A]

Let's. Let's follow this thread. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, since we've started pulling on it, which. Let's ask you. So my sister's in town, and it's been a long time since she's been in the Detroit metro area. And so I was driving around to kind of see what's been happening and all of the different construction that's going on, both new and then renovations and everything else. And I had this conversation about a new building that's going up, and. And I particularly like it. And she was like, why is that so ugly? And it's interesting because she.

[A]

It doesn't. It doesn't resonate with her.

[B]

It doesn't. And. And that's. It's interesting because, like, obviously I had my music turned down really low because I was listening to some old DC Punk stuff, and. And I turned it down low because she didn't really want to listen to it. And of course, it's because it wouldn't have resonated with her versus the. The music that she does. And so it's. It's kind of interesting to have this conversation about, like, what we can. I don't know if it's what frequency is taste or what. Or what it is that makes some people like one thing versus another. You know, whether it's like, do you like Steely Dan? Or do you like Whatever? Or do you like the shop building that I particularly like in downtown Detroit? And why does she. Not those kind of things? So it's. It's kind of interesting because I see with students now, we obviously, we don't dictate styles of what they would design in. I know that we've been in. In studios where the preferred delivery of the architectural style of Your project or whatever is something modern or whatever, and in other classes, it's something very classical or traditional or rooted in history and stuff. But does that style. That style seemed to kind of like, resonate with certain people. I prefer to do this, or I prefer to do this. And I think both you and I, we have this interesting appreciation for kind of like, all sorts of different styles, much like all sorts of different music where, like, I. Today, I was like, okay, well, you're very. Not. If you don't want to listen to my 80s hardcore punk from the DC scene, how about we listen to some Rachmaninoff and I go from one extreme to another. And she's like, do you really listen to this, too? Like, yeah.

[A]

It's nice that you're getting to know each other.

[B]

Yeah, well, I mean, it's just like, what. And. And this is probably something that we really can't answer and probably just don't even need to talk about, but it's just like, what is the. What is this kind of, like, driving force or whatever behind people's taste? Like, what. What makes somebody like something more than something else? I think we' always been trying to figure that out, especially with. As architects. We've always been trying to figure this out. It's like, hey, client, here's what we think you would like. And they're like, oh, no, that's not. That's not even remotely me.

[A]

That's why we started asking them what they like before. Before we start showing them what we think they might like. We ended the last episode with a pregnant pause. Let's do another one.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

There we go.

[B]

All right.

[A]

The answer is, yes, it is. It is like resonance is the word. And your vibration, I think, changes over time. It might even change day to day. So something you like today may not be something you liked before. It may be something you're not going to like tomorrow. And I think what's interesting about that is, like, Rick Rubin talks about this. We've talked about him before on the podcast with his book is called the Creative Act, I believe, and has. We've talked about his podcast Tetragrammatrin, and. And some other. He has some newsletters and things like that. But the thing that he talks about this is like, every human being is an antenna. And this is how he attributes his success, right? Which is that he's just open to receiving inspiration. And the human is an antenna which is tuned in or not. Many people are not tuned in to. They're not open, they're closed, they're closed down. And so you were going to tune into certain frequencies and you were going to tune out others. And I think creative people especially are more tuned in to certain frequencies. It's like when you talk to somebody who wrote a particularly interesting piece of music, many times they will say, I don't know where it came from. It didn't come from me.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

That totally goes. This basically, to me, is reassuring about what Rick Rubin is saying about being an antenna. It's like, I received this, and I think that's super interesting because you're. That frequency can change, tastes can change, but ideas that, that you're open to in the moment could also. You know, there's so many things I think that could affect that.

[B]

I don't know if you had a chance to listen to the interview that Rick Beato just recently did with Dave Gilmore.

[A]

No, I haven't.

[B]

And. And that was very much the same thing here. Obviously, Rick is sitting there somewhat fanboying with Dave Gilmore, as one does as. As one should. And he's asking about, like, you. He's like, you play very uniquely. And Dave was like, well, I think we all play very uniquely. I mean, there's no one person. He goes, even if we're playing the same music, there is no one piece of music that's the same because of the person who's playing it.

[A]

Your sense of timing is going to be different the way you. Like, if it's a guitar even you're going to play, you're going to strike the strings differently. It's me going through a different.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Chain of effects. You're going to be holding the string, fingering the strings. Like. Like the tension that you hold even changes. There's so many variables. It's the same with architecture. Right.

[B]

I.

[A]

It's. Yeah. It's like in studio when you give one assignment and you get 16 different outcomes.

[B]

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Because, I mean, if you think about it. So Dave was talking about Rick Astom. He's like, well, where did this chord come from? Because we think that this chord is.

[A]

Like that famous chord that, that. Yeah, that. That famous sound of Pink Floyd.

[B]

Right. That changed the course of. Of. Of rock guitar. And he's just like, I don't know. I. I don't know where it came from. It just. We were sitting around a room and I. We were playing and I played it and it was just like. I think that's something there. And it's kind of like the nuggets of how we do it in architecture. It's Just like a lot of times I, I, I know because in talking with you that there's a lot that is just intuitive. It's like, well, why did you do that? You know, like it just felt right.

[A]

I don't have a justification, like, yeah, A metric to, to show you, to justify it in the way that you're looking for. Right. I think. And exactly. That's art though.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

That's the definition of art. Right. It's, it is going to repel some and it is going to attract others.

[B]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And it's just like, oh, oh. And in fact, actually what was interesting is because driving around again today with my sister, there's a, a greenway in the middle of, you know, divided median and it's wide enough where they've got just this trail of art. And there is some art that struck her of these kind of like statues and stuff that are down the roadside and there's some that, that didn't. And she basically just said as, you know, arts in the eye of the beholder. Like, absolutely, yeah, absolutely.

[A]

Yeah. Trying to please everyone also is just a lost cause to me that this is really speaking to that. Like there obviously there's pop music that a majority of people resonate with.

[B]

Right.

[A]

To go back to our theme, not everybody, but for many people, popular music is nails on a chalkboard. Because there is not a lot of quote unquote art to it. Right. Yeah. You're raising your hand. So I am anyway to say there is stuff that does resonate with a lot, but not everyone. And so by trying to make something or please everyone, you are. There's no way that in the metric of everyone that that means 100. Right. It's not going to happen. And so not everyone has to like your stuff. And I think that's one of the things that is so interesting about progress is progress. I think a lot of people think it just means like it's more for the masses. And I think what's interesting is that the art that really moves me is the weird stuff that I resonate with. And the weird stuff by definition I think then means that it's for a smaller number of people, very small number of people.

[B]

So funny you just. The reason why I was kind of like chuckling when you were talking is so I had playing in my head the opening noise, sound music, whatever you want to call it. For depeche modes, people are people. And then you said for the masses. And then I immediately went to music for the masses.

[A]

Wow. Just like cormic's off in La La land.

[B]

I'm totally 100 off in LA LA Land. Just like. I mean, he's right, because there's like, so many different little things that. Yeah, I mean, the reason I was thinking about, like, the opening to People are people is that just. It sort of sounds like melodic pants falling down the stairs. Right. And people are like, do you really listen to this? Like, just give it, Give, give it. See? And they're just like, yeah, whatever it is, it is sort of like carcase, Right?

[A]

You know, give it some time. Give it some time. Maybe. Maybe it'll.

[B]

It's coming.

[A]

Keep.

[B]

Keep walking. There, see? See? There you go.

[A]

Well, what's interesting about that is the. The. Say the cliche of don't judge a book by its cover. But. But I'm the kind of person who's like, it's got to have a good cover for me to even look at it. I'm not. I'm not. It's like, there's so many books. It has nothing to do with judging the quality of the book at all. It's just like, there's got to be something attractive enough for me to crack it open. But you could say that I think also about music or many things. Architecture.

[B]

All right, so speaking of covers, you saw most recently, a whole bunch of different covers. And I wanted to talk about your trip.

[A]

I saw a bunch of covers. Is that another word for something?

[B]

Well, no, I mean, you were talking about don't judge a book by its covers. Well, you had a lot. You had your own kind of like, architectural trip to the Midwest.

[A]

Let me refresh my memory here. I'm going to pull up my photographs here because I haven't even looked into what these buildings that I visited were even called. I know who designed them, but I don't know what they were called. So give me. Give me. Play that Jeopardy. Music real quick. I went to Cedar Rapids, Iowa, recently for an architectural firm's annual staff retreat, which sounded very cool. I was invited to be a keynote speaker and sit on a panel discussion for this firm. And it's a firm of about 150 people. It's called Opn Architects. And I got to meet some of the people online who are partners in that firm and technology leaders. And basically we made it happen. So I got to go visit there. It was a very early day for me to get. Every flight that leaves my local airport, which is very, very small, seems to leave at 5 or 6 in the morning. So I get to get up at 3:30 in the morning, Pacific time and go to the airport so that I can get on my flight, go through Denver, landed in Cedar Rapids, got picked up by the technology leader, Hugh, of this firm. And he was an amazing architectural tour guide. All of a sudden he's like, hey, I thought we can go look at some architecture. Oh, cool. So obviously we didn't have anything else planned for that day, so it's like, yeah, let's do something. And so he was the core McFailen of the east coast for me. Whenever I fly out to visit you, it's like, let's go visit some architecture. So that's what we do. That's what Hugh did for me. And then so we Dr. Drove south, I believe, to Iowa City. And Iowa City is. There's a large state college there. And yes, we got to visit. This college does not have an architecture program, but, but this, but that college. But they invest in architecture.

[B]

A whole lot of architecture.

[A]

They have a whole lot of architecture. So I, I shared some of the photos with you over text. I guess what we could do is we could put them in a little gallery slideshow in the show notes for this episode. So for those of you who are listening and want to see what I saw, you can go to the show notes for this episode. I don't know the number of this episode yet, but you'll find [e-mail] and the first building we looked at was actually there was two buildings kind of across the street from each other and they were both by a small firm called Stephen Hole Architects. Have you heard of them?

[B]

I don't believe I have.

[A]

Yeah. Interesting stuff.

[B]

Must be a small up and comer.

[A]

Yeah, you probably haven't heard of them. So, Stephen Hole Architects. And like I said, I don't know the names of these buildings. And so I'm looking at this first building, which was kind of a light silver metal screen building. It looks like a solid mass. Some of it actually is solid, but most of it's kind of perforated. So it's kind of a rain screen with some windows behind it that are punched openings with these really cool carve outs on the side of the building. In the carve outs are channel glass. They spent all the money on the glass.

[B]

Are we talking about the Art Building West?

[A]

Yes, these were. There were two art buildings. So, okay, I'm going to take your word for it. Art Building West. So you're looking it up in real time while I'm, while I'm looking at My photos.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

So. So where these carve outs are is really where you would enter or exit the building. Right. So that. That it was pretty. Just reading the building, it was very clear, like, okay. And I'm trying to imagine what this build. I bet this building is beautiful at night especially because, like, what appears to be kind of solid mass on the outside at night wouldn't. It would be completely different because it's a rain screen that's several inches in front of a more traditional envelope that has punched openings that are more randomly sized and placed. So on one side of the building, it's what has. As described. On the opposite side of the building, that rain screen isn't there. And you just see the punched openings in the. So. So it's kind of cool. You get during the day you can really read both sides as kind of these different versions of the facade. But I would imagine at night it's kind of like, oh, it just kind of seems to be the entire building. So it kind of changes faces in the middle or in the evening. But when I went into that building, the interior space is just this big volume atrium space that's probably four or five stories tall. It's large and it's concrete. But remember those Louis Kahn buildings we went to? It wasn't like that. It wasn't like that at all. The quality of the craftsmanship was not amazing. And it just felt kind of sterile and cavernous on the inside of the building. And so it really didn't land for me. It felt really weird. It kind of resembles the Guggenheim on the inside with like these. The circulation kind of spiral almost spirals around the space. But did this come up? Yeah, I can see your screen.

[B]

So this is the. This is the west. And then this is the. What is described as the visual arts. So one is the Visual Arts and one is the Arts Building West. Okay, so this is Arts Building West.

[A]

Yeah, Visual Arts. So we're talking about the Visual Arts Building then. And on the inside of this building, you can see there because this is kind of a bird's eye view. There's. It's a giant skylight at the top of this central atrium, which I think in that image it's like, oh, so clear. It looks so cool. It just didn't feel good inside the building. Like I said, it felt. It's super hard surfaces, everything is super. So it's really echoey in there. Obviously, there's a lot of concrete. There's probably a lot of chipboard. Although all I'm seeing is painted White concrete and then channel glass and glass on the hard surface on the lid. And it's just like. It just didn't work. So it's like we actually kind of got out of it fairly quickly to go visit the other Stephen Holt project, which is this in building that is entirely clad in Corten steel, for the most part. And channel glass. More channel glass. So they're kind of talking to each other in some way, but you can tell this building is quite a bit older. This building feels more like a earlier amorphous or Michael Rotundi building or something of. Of that kind of era. A little bit deconstructivist, but clean. Like a really beautiful kind of massing and sizing and things like that. So, yeah, that's the Art Building west at the University of Iowa. And this building, I thought, was way more successful. From just an experiential point of view. This, like, the site of this building is incredible. First of all, like, you've got this giant cantilevered volume sitting on a concrete pier out over a pond. It's incredible. And I think that there was quite a bit of consideration that went into the site of this building so that they could. So they could do this fella here. That fella right there. Yeah. So very, really, really beautiful. I thought this building resonated, to be.

[B]

Quite honest with you.

[A]

Resonated with me some more.

[B]

Yeah. I was gonna say, to be quite honest with you, this sort of feels like some of like the Police. Stephen Holish.

[A]

I thought so, too.

[B]

Totally building that. I've. Yeah. I mean.

[A]

And so I think it's from the mid-90s, if I had to guess. I would say it's from the mid-90s.

[B]

Look at that. I would say. I mean.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Does that. Does that not. Look.

[A]

That's amorphous diagram right there.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Yeah. And what we're looking at, for those who are listening, is it's a. It's a site plan view of a model, of a physical model. And it just a little bit of.

[B]

Copper, both patinaed and not patinaed. Brown amongst green. And it's such a very. I have a morphosis. I still have trouble saying morphosis instead of morphosis, but anyway, morphosis. I have a monograph that has the cookhouse on the front.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

And the quintessential famous model of the cookhouse is just Chef's Kiss. Amazing. And this sort of feels 100% like that.

[A]

Yeah. I don't know if you remember, there was a rendering done. It's probably in that book of. And the guy who did all their digital modeling back in the day. His name was Cameron Crockett and early Form Z super user. Okay. And I remember seeing an image that he rendered of amorphosis project where he had applied the texture map of Venus to the whole project. Total morphosis thing to do. And it was super cool. That just impacted me as a student in college in the days. But yeah, that's what this building looks like because it's all corten and it's all thick panels of raw corten steel. And it is really beautiful. Especially when the greenish channel glass meets that material when they come together. It's very cool. And what's I think super interesting about one of the facades of this building is where it is mostly channel glass. They have operable windows inserted into the channel glass so that they can control their environment a little bit or open the building up to the environment in a. In a facade assembly that wouldn't typically be operable at all. So they have these kind of punched openings with awning windows in them is pretty interesting. So walked into that building I felt like the interior lobby and atrium was way more successful. Super amazing stair in that building which I'll put a picture for in the, in the show notes. And it's this plate. Heavy, heavy, heavy plate steel. It's super cool. It's just this really beautiful assembly of parts. The stair. It's like you, you know how I feel about stairs, right? Yes. It was that I could have, I could have just studied that stair all day long. It was so that stair. Very cool. Yeah. There, there's a. And you can kind of see how it's just this really complex assembly of steel plate done in many different ways. Very. It was very cool. And it's like half inch plate. This is not a light set of stairs.

[B]

I've. I've done a stair like that that the risers and treads are this folded continuous plate that in my particular stair was just basically set on a center tube steel stringer. Just two back to back ones. But in like this case I, I it it, you're right. It's just a series of like folds. It's kind of very steel or it's.

[A]

Really tectonic and you can see that it's kind of hanging from the ceiling. Yeah, it's like got these. The detailing of that it would have taken a very long time to detail that. I can't imagine reviewing those shop draw things. But it's, it's really cool. Very cool.

[B]

Reviewing and rejecting and all the.

[A]

Yeah, revise and resubmit.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Multiple times over. What I love is like this continuation of the tension rod hangers of this. Of the actual like vertical hung steel suspension.

[A]

Yeah, that is.

[B]

Yeah, that is replicated in the. The actual cables of the balustrade.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Really cool. Really interesting. And.

[A]

And in this building, I think more successfully there's a warmth to it. There was, there was a lot of. There very much is blonde wood paneling. More, I would say because of its age probably at the time, more incandescent kind of coloration to the lighting. So it was, it was really cool.

[B]

99 through 22,004. Really.

[A]

Okay, there you go. Late 90s. So I mean it probably been on the boards for a while. Okay. So the next one we went to, I believe this next project is called the Hauncher Auditorium. According to my metadata on my photo, which is a Caesar Peli project. Is it Pelly Clark Peli? I don't know. There's a lot of Pelis at the Pelly Palace. Yeah. Another building with channel glass. Third building in a row with channel glass. Channel glass never made it onto any of my projects. How about you?

[B]

No, I'm still, still trying.

[A]

So this building will again include images, but it looks like a cruise ship. Like literally a giant, giant cruise ship. And it's an auditorium building in it. Very beautiful, beautiful curtain wall details. Like this was the kind of thing where I didn't even get to go inside the main auditorium space. But. But the way that they kind of transition materials from inside to outside and the curtain walls just basically disappearing. So like the ceilings on the outside are this wood. Natural wood slat, not metal that looks like wood, but actual wood. And that which looks like Doug fir to me or possibly cedar, but it just goes right through the curtain wall, which it obviously doesn't. The curtain wall does interrupt it, but there's no top or bottom mullions for the curtain walls. And so the wood just shoots right through and beautiful. And what I really liked it was a super subtle thing and Hugh pointed this out, which was the what look like can lights that are basically down lighting. All the surfaces that you walk on in this wood ceiling, they are, they are kind of like a can light with a lens, but it has this drop down scrim of translucent glass so that about three inches below the wood surface you get this really beautiful glow of light. So it's not tucked up in the wood ceiling and it's not flat with the wood Ceiling. It kind of just projects down as, like, an extrusion around the edge of the light. And it was very beautiful. I thought it was a really nice choice.

[B]

You could sort of see that in this.

[A]

Yeah. And you'll see it in my photo as well. It's a couple pictures of that. But I thought it was a really nice choice because by pushing them down below the ceiling and then that same ceiling material going into the building from outside, the grid of lights reads really well.

[B]

Oh, nice.

[A]

And I thought that that was a nice touch. And choosing not to use linear fixtures in a very linear directional ceiling, I think was also a good choice. It was really cool.

[B]

Did you have an opportunity to go into.

[A]

I did not. I'm looking at this image. It looks incredible.

[B]

I'm looking at this image. I'm like, wow.

[A]

Wow. Yeah.

[B]

This is fantastic. And then some.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[B]

So. So the cruise ship. Let's get back to that bit.

[A]

Okay. So. So looking at this picture here. Look at the landscape in the foreground of this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it literally is like a cruise ship that. This is the bow of the ship, and it is sending out waves. It is sending out a wake from. Yeah. And there are literally are like, sculptures of giant concrete fish that are jumping in it. And it's. They're playing it up for sure.

[B]

So they just leaned right on.

[A]

They leaned into it. Yeah, for sure. Somebody was like, that looks like a cruise ship. And they're like, oh, yeah, okay. Yeah, we're gonna double down.

[B]

That's awesome.

[A]

What's interesting about this. Okay, so, yeah. Pelle Clark and Partners. So it wasn't. No longer Pelley Clark.

[B]

Well, I mean, remember, it was Pelly then. You know, Pelly Clark.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I think we've lost to Pelly. So the Pelly.

[A]

There you go. So there are new partners in the firm, and they don't get names on the plaque, but that metal that wraps the vertical facades of the building in that horizontal texture. It's hard to keep buildings clean. And you just notice it, like these photos where the. When these were taken. I mean, I'm sure it's. Yeah, it was perfect. And it's just not perfect anymore. And. And the Stephen Hole building that we just talked about, the art Center West 1. There's. There's parts where the Corten steel has leached back into the horizontal stucco in. In interesting ways. So something to note about this location of Iowa is they've had severe flooding and so, like, 20ft of water, standing water in. And these buildings, like, what do you do. And I think, you know, how do you prepare your building to be flooded in a 500 year flood? It. It has happened and I don't know if it's happened since this building was built. I think it was 2008. It's still difficult to keep buildings clean. And I don't. It's unfortunate because you look up and there's. There's cobwebs and there's dirt and there's stains and there's running water and all these things. And it's like, it's a. It's a moist environment. Right. It's humid there also.

[B]

Right on. It's on the bend of the Iowa River. So here it is right here. And so you sort of see this. Yeah, I could definitely see it's probably as well cited as the, the Farnsworth House.

[A]

So this last one is a building that is downtown. So the campus also has buildings downtown. And this is by a firm on the west coast, which is LMN Architects out of Seattle. Have you heard of lmn?

[B]

Yeah, I believe we have.

[A]

I'm sure we have.

[B]

They were the firm of the year.

[A]

That's right. They were the firm of the year. You are correct. Okay, can you tell what you're looking at there? So this is kind of an atrium space. It's three or four stories. There's some stairs coming up on the right hand side, but there's these weird tracks in this metal panel system that is the guardrail between kind of the circulation and the open atrium space.

[B]

Are these fire curtains?

[A]

If I gave you one chance to answer that question, you would have answered it correctly because you are such a. A building nerd.

[B]

Holy sh. It is.

[A]

Have you ever seen horizontal?

[B]

Horizontal, long. Oh, my Lord. People, we need to find this.

[A]

We define. We need to talk to somebody about. Because we talked so much about this in the British Arts Museum episode. Yeah, right. Where. Where Cormac could not stop looking at the fire curtain detail.

[B]

And they kept yelling at me for like leaning into it and they're like, you know, if there was. If, if the fire alarm goes off, you're gonna get chopped in half.

[A]

You're gonna. Yeah, you're gonna lose an arm, you're gonna lose a neck.

[B]

Like, oh, man. I specifically looked for fire curtain in that particular building. And for some reason.

[A]

Nobody cares. That's why nobody cares.

[B]

They. They should. Because this is something special.

[A]

This is wild. Okay, so what? So I, I just wanted to have some fun with Cormac. Sorry, listeners, but this, this was an Interesting detail where I was like, what are those reveals? And Hugh was like, are those for fire curtains? And then if you look over to the right, you can see that.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

There's a horizontally mounted fire curtain behind a scrim. And this. It just. There you go. Look at you. That's the image. That's it. That's as big as it gets.

[B]

That's almost the image. And sure enough, this right here is.

[A]

That's where it lands. It lands on the left.

[B]

So it lands. Yeah.

[A]

Comes out from the right, and it.

[B]

It. It rolls across and it lands in here.

[A]

Yep. And you get a seal and.

[B]

And it does it here, too.

[A]

Yes. So there's two separate. There's two separate.

[B]

This way.

[A]

Ones. Yeah.

[B]

That is an incredibly unusual way to deal with isolation of the atriums.

[A]

Fire safe. Yeah. Fire separation. Right. Because by volume, I assume, like, what's. What's driving that? Is it. It.

[B]

Air volume of the space. There's a. Well, I mean, there's a variety of different things. Factors, obviously, for the whole atrium thing and then being able to. I mean, this is a pretty spectacular building, actually.

[A]

I didn't. I didn't. I didn't love, like, the. The surfaces of it. I. I'm sorry to say.

[B]

Oh, no, that.

[A]

Well, okay, so. So if you go, like, find a picture of just the interior lobby. Okay, that's good enough.

[B]

Right there.

[A]

Right there. That's good enough. Okay, so that. What does that look like to you? What do those panels look like to you? I'll tell you what they look like to me, but I want to hear what you said.

[B]

I mean, they're. They're. I mean, I'm being pretty generic and saying they're just a series of perforated acoustical panels.

[A]

Yeah, they're. They're perforated metal panels. From my understanding, this building was a huge exploration into computational design. So all of the. The panel. The panelizing, the perforations. It's. It's. But. But for me, if you. If you just step in and you look at this as. Okay, somebody who knows, because I've done it. But. But I would think it's just like a standard bystander. This looks like unfinished gipboard to me. Like, this is where you've painted the seams. Because you've taped.

[B]

You've taped them the first. The funny thing is it. It does very much look like a taped.

[A]

It is taped drywall. Taped. Gray. The grayish. Yeah, that's what it looked like to me, and that's why I was like.

[B]

I Mean, you definitely look at that, and that's. That's definitely. This is. This is performance over esthetics, in my opinion. It is interesting, but this is 100% like. It would be interesting because you had spoke about the, like, the acoustics and everything else in the one Stephen hall building. The visual arts.

[A]

The terrible acoustics.

[B]

Yes, and the terrible acoustics and the hard surface.

[A]

This one was not that bad.

[B]

And you. Yeah, and you. And you see all of the hard surfaces here, or what you would assume to be hard surfaces, with the metal panel and everything else, and the hard. The hard travertine floor or. Or. No, that might be concrete, but. Yeah, I'm looking at a. I'm looking at a crack right here.

[A]

Concrete cracks.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I. Thanks. I zoomed in on a crack there. It is.

[A]

That. That actually looks like a. Like a structural crack, not. Not like a random crack. It looks.

[B]

You want to. You want to say that again?

[A]

I mean, it's at a diagonal. Oh, you can see it hits the perfect corner of the stair where the stair is. Yep, yep, yep.

[B]

Up.

[A]

So. Yeah. Concrete crack.

[B]

Yeah. I was gonna say. Come on now, but. But I would say that this is like, this is an exercise in controlling acoustics.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, for sure.

[B]

Which.

[A]

I mean, if this is this performance building, that's. That's what this building is about.

[B]

It has. It has to.

[A]

Yeah. So. So look at the interior name. Yeah. Okay, so that space right there that you kind of have a glimpse of. I got to go in that space. It is gorgeous. It is. This. You are the. This is very. This is very OMA right here. Like, this is like you've carved out this thing, and what's left is this.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

This red. This red space. So this is kind of a secondary.

[B]

This is the. The meat.

[A]

This is the meat of. Yeah. Taken out of the chunk of building that got taken away, for sure. And that curtain wall, I mean, it's just kind of this beautiful contrast between the two. So beautiful daylight, which is atypical for a performance space. But I can imagine for what it's used for. Like, you would. That's part of the programming, right? Like you. Pretty cool, actually. And they do have shades and stuff to control the lighting there, but I thought that was really neat.

[B]

This looks operable.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Is it?

[A]

Yeah, it looks like it is to me, too. It looks like it's kind of like.

[B]

It's interesting.

[A]

Telescoping barn door to open up to the outside.

[B]

Ah, that's so cool.

[A]

I didn't get to go into the main space, which is how I knew of this building, the main performance space and the ceiling is why I know this project because this is a very early computational design where lmn, I believe, actually even did the fabrication for this. So not they like took it into their own destiny. Right. They put the risk into developing this based on acoustic modeling and create the kind of acoustic atmosphere that they needed for a performance space like this. And little did I know that that extended out to the rest of the building. But I think what's really actually very successful about this building is how it puts circulation on display as if it were a performance. So. Yeah, that's pretty cool, right?

[B]

I love the fact that you can actually see and connect with the interior spaces in the interior uses from the exterior.

[A]

Yep. It actually puts it on display, I think so. So what's interesting and what you've just expanded upon kind of my reaction, which was not only is it doing it in the building, it's also doing it outside the building for the people on the street. So it becomes this lens through which you can look through to see various types of performance. And in the main lobby there are theatrical lights kind of mounted to those panels. And I don't know if do this, but it feels like they could turn the lobby into a performance space or at least maybe they turn the lights on at a particular before showtime. So you feel like you're about to enter a performance. So there's some things I really like about this building. There's other things that I. I didn't like as much, but there you have it. I got to experience some architecture in Iowa. It was incredible. It was. It was really wonderful to be.

[B]

It looks like you got to experience some of the best of it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

At least at the University of Iowa.

[A]

And I was curious because on the outside of this, the first thing that we saw were these really cool terracotta panels on the outside of the building and some of those terracotta cotta panels in the. With the same module instead of being flat. And they're kind of vertical, like skinny, tall vertical panels. They actually twist and become an opening so that they reveal like a. A pushed back facade in some areas. And I'll put a picture to that in the. In the show notes. But it was very. You can see it there. It's over that main entry up on the upper part. The. It looks kind of gray, but those. The terracotta panels at the bot. The very bottom row of those twist as they go up 90 degrees. Yeah, it's very Cool. So, yeah, they've taken the same module, but they've just twisted them 90 degrees to reveal.

[B]

That's nice. Openings behind, like, kind of reminds me of the Renzo Art Museum at. Was it Harvard? Yeah, it was Harvard. That was right next to the Corp building. Corbusier building.

[A]

Yes. Oh, that side was precise.

[B]

That was a chef's kitchen.

[A]

That's what I would say. That's the word I would use. It was precise.

[B]

That was precise. And I feel this kind of.

[A]

That was terracotta too, right?

[B]

Kind of like that. It looks like it, yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I want to say. No, it was.

[B]

Oh, you're talking about the Renzo.

[A]

The Renzo, yeah.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, anyway, so how. How did you, how did you like opn?

[A]

Okay. Yeah. So I wanted to give a shout out to opn. For sure. OPN is a cool firm. I didn't know of them before I started, but as soon as I looked at the website, I'm like, oh, I know. I know who OPN is. It was, it was very similar to the, the firm that I, I worked in for many, many years. And I thought it was really refreshing that they are so proactive about talking about their future and where they're going and how they're going to get there. It was, it was a wonderful day where I did a keynote. Another keynote was given by Duane Euler of Euler and Wu. Duane also and Jenny Wu. They teach at Sci Arc. They have a practice together called Euler Wu Collaborative. They do incredible, incredible work. And so it was really great to see that, but also to get to meet Duane and vicariously Jenny through the work that they've done, but really interesting work. So they had kind of a future focused. My keynote was on some of the trends that we're seeing. Some things to be thinking about as they move forward. And then they had more of a practitioner side that's just doing work that is really incredible. And so Duane fulfilled that part. And then we were together on a panel discussion and there was just kind of a series of questions that the firm had kind of come up with ahead of time. But then they opened it up to the audience of employees and some incredible people got to ask some incredible questions and, you know, you have to think on your feet and come up with answers in real time and think about things like that. Really cool. I think that's a cool space. Thank you. And then after that they did. They did some pechacucha style presentations of projects that are going on. They have Multiple offices. So it's like, well, here's what's going on. And different things they've done in the last year because this is an annual retreat. And beyond that, they had a couple of 30 plus year anniversaries. They did like firm anniversaries. And then they did. A couple were retiring and they got to shed some tears. And, you know, it was really emotional for some of it, which I thought was fantastic because it shows that they're really an incredible team with some great bonds. And then. Okay, so the venue for this, I mentioned the Caesar Pelli's palace earlier. This was at the Pickle Palace. Any idea what happens in the Pickle palace in Cedar Rapids, Iowa?

[B]

They might, they maybe make pickles or.

[A]

Pickleball. You failed this test, Cormac. You failed this one.

[B]

You won pickleball.

[A]

You won the smoke. Smoke screen one. You lost this one. Yeah, it is a pickleball palace. It was actually a really interesting idea. They have, I think, four pickleball courts indoor, two outdoor. It's in kind of what you would consider maybe an area that's going through some gentrification in Iowa City that has been rebuilt from scratch since that giant flood. Took out a lot of this area. There's a picture of the Pickle palace that I wouldn't have been able to get from a drone. Very cool. So there's other programming here too. There's conference space, which we were using. There is a mezzanine with a bar. There's a restaurant and a bar downstairs. And there's like a really cool kind of upper deck, outdoor game area where I got to play some ping pong with some of the OPN employees, which was super cool. And they were serving food and stuff up there. Really cool. Really, actually. And great venue. And, and it was just really.

[B]

How many days fun time was this?

[A]

I was just there for that one day. The next day they did a bunch of architectural tours. So they got on a bus as a staff and went out and visited some architecture. So if anybody wants to know how to run a staff retreat, I say crib. Some notes from OPN Architects in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And they're also in, in various locations.

[B]

Yeah, in, in the Midwest. Just looking at them, they've got a handful of offices in Des Moines, Cedar Rapids, Iowa City, Madison, Wisconsin, and Minneapolis, Minnesota.

[A]

Minneapolis, yeah. Great group, great culture. I, I, you know, I think that's one of the things that I took away from it, which reminded me of the firm that I used to be a part of as well. Just a fantastic culture, fantastic people. And so if you're looking for a firm to work at and you live in the Midwest, you might check them out.

[B]

You were feeling their resonance.

[A]

I was resonating with them. I was aligned. Yes. It was great.

[B]

Sweet.

[A]

Yeah, it was sweet.

[B]

You had to pull it back.

[A]

I have to say, it felt good to get back to Oregon still. So the next day when I got back, I got to ride my bike around Crater Lake. So that was super cool.

[B]

That's right, you did. You went on that whole little adventure. You got back and.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was non stop there for a few days, but absolutely worth it. So, yeah, very cool to share that experience. I'm glad we got to do that here. I'm gonna send a link to this episode to them so they can hear it. But shout out to opn. Thanks for the invitation and I'm really pleased with what came out of it.

[B]

And definite shout out to Hugh.

[A]

Hugh. Hugh soured.

[B]

Is that his.

[A]

Hugh was. That was the man for sure. Yeah.

[B]

All right, well, OPN senior leadership, if Hugh's not at the top, he needs to be there.

[A]

That's right. I think he's well on his way. Yeah, he's doing a great job.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

Cool. All right, cool.

[B]

Well, thanks for sharing, man.

[A]

Yeah, thanks for. Thanks for invoking that share. I was pleased to do it.

[B]

It. All right, talk to you later.