#383 - Why We Still Love This Profession

Summary

Archispeak #383 - Why We Still Love This Profession

Date: March 13, 2026
Hosts: Evan Troxel & Cormac Phalen

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Episode Overview

In this candid installment, Evan and Cormac reflect on the persistent draw of architectural practice, even amidst modern challenges. Blending humor and honesty, they share stories from their professional lives, touch on the evolution of technology in the field, and explore the deeply personal motivations that keep architects inspired. The conversation covers everything from the hurdles of firm IT and licensing bureaucracy to the thrill of design, the importance of mentorship, and the vital role passion plays in shaping fulfilling careers.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Eternal Struggle with Technology: Tools and Firm Culture

[00:00–04:55]

• The discussion opens with light-hearted banter about slow computers and IT frustrations in architectural firms.
  • Cormac: “The quality of the computers that we are assigned for the type of work we are doing...they don't align.” [00:34]
  • Ed: “People in firms work for the architects, not the other way around.” [01:04]
• They highlight the strange priorities in firms, where the cost of decent hardware is minimal compared to staff salaries, yet underinvestment persists.
• Transition into the student experience: Modern architecture students now experience tech woes running cloud-based software even on small projects.

2. The Ongoing Pain of Licensure and Continuing Education

[04:55–10:58]

• Evan details the bureaucratic trials of renewing architectural licenses in California and other states, emphasizing the escalating costs and unique requirements.
  • Cormac: “I'm a captive audience, so I'm keeping my first [license]. You always love the first, right?” [05:32]
  • Anecdotes about managing multiple state requirements and the absurdity of the process.
  • Ed: “California is so special that you basically have to find the needle in a haystack to get those kinds of credits.” [07:15]
• Both reflect on the irony of CEUs—many are only technically useful, adding extra hoops for compliance.

3. The Human Side of Practice: Nostalgia, Sketching, and Family Stories

[06:00–15:56]

• Cormac’s nostalgia for old tools and objects reflects loyalty not just to equipment but to architecture’s traditions.
• A humorous story about a family trip gone awry at the Guggenheim Museum (“the Googan Slime incident”), illustrating how real-life often interrupts the best-laid architectural pilgrimages.
  • Cormac: “We now refer to it as the googan slime.” [12:28]
  • Evan’s own, less eventful but deeply appreciative, visit to the “Goog.”
  • Reflection on how non-architects (family included) share or don't share these design pilgrimages.

4. Modern Leadership and Tech Trajectories in Architecture

[16:11–29:36]

• Evan recounts moderating a leadership panel at the AEC Tech Conference by Core Studio at Thornton Tomasetti, featuring tech-driven firm leaders from Populous, CBT, HKS, and SOM.
  • This represents a shift: technology specialists now lead major firms, a pathway less recognized in earlier generations.
  • Ed: “There actually isn’t such thing anymore as a quote unquote digital practice… It’s everywhere.” [22:01]
  • Cormac: “You essentially have to drop the digital part of practice and it’s just practice.” [22:36]
• The importance of audience-driven discussions at conferences, which yield more authentic, insightful answers compared to standard presentations.

5. Passion, Hiring, and the Spark That Drives Careers

[29:36–35:59]

• The takeaway from the leadership panel: firms value passion and enthusiasm as much as credentials.
  • Ed: “The reason he [Shane Berger of SOM] hired the last person...was because of their enthusiasm for what they do. And that excitement got him excited.” [31:38]
• Discussion about how student reviews and job interviews can lose sight of passion.
  • Cormac: “Did you enjoy this? What excited you about it?” [33:52]
• Both hosts agree: finding joy and fun in practice sustains architects during hard times.

6. Mentoring, Early-Career Mindsets, and Avoiding Cynicism

[35:59–38:40]

• New architects often expect to start with mundane tasks (“toilet room details”).
• The hosts urge leaders to prevent this experience from quashing ambition and creativity.
  • Ed: “We need to watch out so that that doesn’t just become the hole that they are pigeonholed into.” [37:17]
  • Cormac: “I just don’t want them to go into a profession already jaded with expectations of limitations.” [38:18]

7. Inspiration from the Built Environment: New York Visits and Place-making

[38:40–53:19]

• Evan recounts his visit to Little Island in New York—a blend of landscape, infrastructure, and fun, designed by Heatherwick Studio.
  • Both reflect on the importance of play, whimsy, and human experience in architecture.
    • Cormac: “Where has the whimsy gone?” [42:45]
  • Stories about the design importance of transitional spaces, hardscape, and landscape integration (Florida Southern campus, Frank Lloyd Wright’s work, etc.).
• Emphasize how masterful site and building integration can truly capture the essence of a place.

8. Closing: Why We Still Love This Profession

[53:19–end]

• The episode wraps with Cormac sketching a caricature of Evan—a symbol of the enduring fun and camaraderie that also defines architectural practice.
• Underlying message: Despite moments of frustration, bureaucracy, and burnout, learning, creating, and experiencing architecture’s joys keep both seasoned and young architects hooked.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Tools and Value:
  • Cormac: “The quality of the computers that we are assigned...they don't align.” [00:34]
  • Ed: “It's a rounding error.” [02:14]
• On Licensure:
  • Cormac: “You always love the first [license], right?” [05:32]
• On Technology in Practice:
  • Ed: “There isn’t such a thing anymore as a quote unquote digital practice… It’s everywhere.” [22:01]
  • Cormac: “It's just practice because that's what practice is these days.” [22:36]
• On Hiring:
  • Ed: “The reason he hired the last person…was because of their enthusiasm for what they do. And that excitement got him excited.” [31:38]
• On Nurturing Students:
  • Cormac: “Did you have fun? Did you enjoy this? What excited you about it?” [33:52]
• On Whimsy in Architecture:
  • Cormac: “Where has the whimsy gone? …Why not get playful with place?” [42:45]
• On the Profession:
  • Ed: “You need role models in those positions…there's a path for me that I didn't realize was a path for me, because my professors in school never talked about that as an option.” [27:29]

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Important Segments (Timestamps)

• 00:00–04:55—Tech woes and resource allocation in firms
• 04:55–10:58—Continued education and licensure frustrations
• 12:20–15:56—Guggenheim “Googan Slime” story and design pilgrimages
• 16:11–29:36—AEC Tech Conference: panel highlights, technology’s rise in firm leadership
• 29:36–35:59—Hiring for passion, not just skill; avoiding boredom in design reviews
• 38:40–42:25—Little Island & the value of playful, experiential places
• 48:45–53:19—Frank Lloyd Wright’s Florida Southern; masterful site/building integration
• 53:19–end—Sketching, laughter, and affirmation of architectural passion

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Tone & Style

The episode is marked by unvarnished honesty, self-deprecating humor, warmth, and deep care for the profession. Both hosts speak as seasoned insiders, balancing wry complaint with real affection for architecture’s learning, mentoring, and creative possibilities. Their conversation is inclusive, urging listeners at all career stages to rediscover the “spark” that makes the work endure.

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For more candid architectural conversations, explore past episodes at archispeakpodcast.com.

Transcript

[Cormac]

All right, so that whatever. Whoever installed some thing on my computer, which of course is not you, the computer one, the office one, they've got this file scanning, so every time it. It's. As it's uploading, it's also file scanning, and I have no idea how to turn it off.

[Ed]

I can't trust the IT department.

[Cormac]

Can't trust the IT department. Started. We are having a conversation about the.

[Ed]

The.

[Cormac]

The quality of. The quality of the computers? No, just the quality of the computers that we are assigned for the type of work that we are doing. And of course, they don't align.

[Ed]

Why would they?

[Cormac]

Why would they.

[Ed]

Yeah, why would. Why would you need a tool to do a job

[Cormac]

or. Why are they being a tool?

[Ed]

So what? Yeah, I mean, that's funny. People in firms work for the architects, not the other way around.

[Cormac]

It doesn't seem like people understand that. Like we're the ones that actually are. The service that's being provided to people bring in the money to keep the lights on and everything.

[Ed]

You literally are the machine. Yeah.

[Cormac]

Right. Yes. So all of this started as a conversation based off of one of the BIM managers within the firm that just got a new computer. And it is about as slow as everybody else's. You would think that somebody who is there to try to troubleshoot other people's work and all that other stuff would have a fancy, schmancy, faster machine.

[Ed]

Well, especially when the. The cost difference between the machine you're talking about them having and the machine they could have is what, maybe $1,000, which is what, maybe a day's worth of their billable rate, which is amortized over how long they're going to have that computer. It's nothing. It is nothing.

[Cormac]

It's nothing.

[Ed]

It's nothing. It's a big whopping zero. It's a rounding error.

[Cormac]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[Ed]

Those kinds of decisions are crazy.

[Cormac]

It's like, why?

[Ed]

Yeah, why?

[Cormac]

I remember I used to take my computer with me to AIA conventions, and you and friend of the show, Brett, if you recall, you still, like him, specifically, used to laugh at me on the little janky computer. He's like, that's what they've given.

[Ed]

Ouch. Nothing like a little jab from up here.

[Cormac]

Exactly. Right. It's like, yes, that's what they've given me. How do you get any work done with that thing? That's like, so two decades ago.

[Ed]

Not quite that bad. Well, sorry. Sorry for your. Your tech woes.

[Cormac]

Funny enough, not even mine right now. It's. It's other People. Well, that's yours. Well that are supporting me that should have the right equipment and don't. But whatever.

[Ed]

This is an age old issue. Yeah, this is.

[Cormac]

Yeah.

[Ed]

Do you guys rent your lease, lease your gear or buy.

[Cormac]

I don't know. Yeah.

[Ed]

I mean there's always been kind of a different arguments in favor of each one of those strategies for.

[Cormac]

It's funny that. So the students now are running like BIM 360 and stuff on their machine because they're doing group projects and they're using Revit in the cloud.

[Ed]

It's called ACC now, Cormac. It's called ACC now.

[Cormac]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, acc. But anyway. Well, it certainly ain't creative and it certainly ain't constructive.

[Ed]

The creative is not part of it.

[Cormac]

Just. Yes, creative stuff is not part of it and constructive is in either construction anyway. And they were like, oh man, it takes so forever to open up my. My Revit model.

[Ed]

And you're their models.

[Cormac]

Tiny.

[Ed]

Did they. Yeah, they don't even.

[Cormac]

You. I was just.

[Ed]

And you're like, oh yeah.

[Cormac]

The struggle. Look how. How you fix for waiting around for 52 minutes. You don't wait for Mike. Let me show you.

[Ed]

Yeah, I remember when you, you told me about that. That's painful. Geez.

[Cormac]

That's just one of two. That's just one of two dot it's the bigger one of the two. But yes, it is still.

[Ed]

Well, I, I had a little pain in the last few weeks which was I just. Just to let you know, I'm still an architect. Renewed my, renewed my license and registrations and.

[Cormac]

Yeah. Good, good.

[Ed]

Yeah.

[Cormac]

So you've. So are. You're. You're still renewing California, right? Keeping California.

[Ed]

Yeah.

[Cormac]

You can't.

[Ed]

You can't. Can't let go of California.

[Cormac]

Right, Right.

[Ed]

Well, it costs too much pain to get.

[Cormac]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ed]

And dollars and ongoing effort. But I can't not do it.

[Cormac]

They still helped me.

[Ed]

They've.

[Cormac]

I'm a captive audience, so I'm keeping my first. You always love the first, right?

[Ed]

I. I shake my head every time you, you bring up your Florida license.

[Cormac]

Yeah. Just like what ever use it. No, no, you will not. Is it nostalgia?

[Ed]

Yes, it's you, man. This is. You are. You are a nostalgia junkie, are you?

[Cormac]

You know what's funny is I was sitting here sketching. I don't know if you can.

[Ed]

You're sketching. You've got your old Minolta camera laying around there. Like you've got your football teams. You've got. You're a You're a loyal. You're a loyal architect and man of society.

[Cormac]

All right, well, that's funny. Oh, I don't know. So what have you been up to?

[Ed]

Well, besides renewing my license and going through the pain of all that continuing education and then paying the fees.

[Cormac]

All right, so why paying for all the.

[Ed]

Because I'm a procrastinationer. Yes, that's why.

[Cormac]

Yeah.

[Ed]

And you didn't gift me any CE credit.

[Cormac]

Dude, if I could, I could give you all.

[Ed]

You could give the whole. You could distribute. Like, this is the whole share the work wealth. Right. Like there's enough.

[Cormac]

Yeah.

[Ed]

Wealth out there for to. To bring the bottom up. I'm. I'm at the bottom, you're at the top. Let's. Let's distribute. Let's redistribute.

[Cormac]

I don't know how I could give. Gift you those.

[Ed]

My, my. California is so special that you basically have to find the needle in a haystack to get those kinds of. Of credits.

[Cormac]

How many do you need for California?

[Ed]

10. Just 10?

[Cormac]

Just 10.

[Ed]

But five ZNCDs and five ADAs, which

[Cormac]

are what is the first one zero

[Ed]

net carbon design ZNCD.

[Cormac]

And that's. So you only need 10 total.

[Ed]

Yep.

[Cormac]

And see, because like, Maryland, Florida, AIA. I mean, AIA is what, 18, but they've got to be like HSWs. A certain amount of HSWs. Right. Florida, 24. But you have to have both HSWs and what they call advanced building code for hurricanes and things like that. And then Maryland's just. Yeah. You can do 24. We need X amount to be HSWS. The others can be regular standard learning units. And none of them really actually have to be very specific for Net Carbon Zero. Yeah. And don't have to be ada, but I. I typically do like ADA ones for Advanced building code and all that other stuff. But.

[Ed]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, so, yeah, California's 10, but they're. I mean, those are harder to come by. And. And it's funny because they.

[Cormac]

Yeah.

[Ed]

Most people want to charge for those, and so they. They're trying to just create. Create a system.

[Cormac]

California, AIA offer free CEUs.

[Ed]

Yeah, well, no, not free for.

[Cormac]

Not those.

[Ed]

Not those.

[Cormac]

That's. So they're just getting.

[Ed]

They offer ones that don't count for free. Yes.

[Cormac]

They're just getting you on both sides.

[Ed]

Right. And then Oregon is 24 HSWs. So. Okay. Anyway, I had my work cut out for me over the last month.

[Cormac]

Sounds like it.

[Ed]

Yeah. Anyway, besides that.

[Cormac]

Any highlights real quick?

[Ed]

No. Zero highlights. I. I'm I don't want to talk about it anymore.

[Cormac]

I want to relive the pain.

[Ed]

It's gone. Done. Check that. Check. Literally, like, this was a checkbox. And I treated it as such because

[Cormac]

of my procrastination associated with a check.

[Ed]

I think I told you this before. They raised the renewal rate $100. They went from 3 to $400.

[Cormac]

In California.

[Ed]

In California.

[Cormac]

Jesus.

[Ed]

Yeah. Do you know, like, for the exact same process? Well, actually, now I get to upload all my certificates because now they're actually looking at them. So I have to do. I actually need to do more than check a box that says, I've. I've done this? And they charge more for such a privilege.

[Cormac]

So I would wish that they would do that because, as we've talked in the past that I've gotten many audits from specifically state of Florida for. Hey, did you do your ceus? Why, yes. But you could have made it a lot easier by me uploading them when I renewed.

[Ed]

What's funny is California still says that people can be randomly automated even though you provide the proof when you renew. So it's like, yeah, extra bureaucracy in California. Absolutely.

[Cormac]

Do you have to pay for the auditing as well?

[Ed]

Right. You pay the hourly rate for the auditor.

[Cormac]

How much more money can we charge you?

[Ed]

Anyway, I got to go to New York City. That's what I've been up to. And I. New York City, a really fun photo from the goog. That was a. The gook. Which. Which you still haven't gotten to go into. Like, really beyond the.

[Cormac]

You know, we're not allowed to talk about that. That trip in our house because.

[Ed]

So, yeah, tell the story. What's the story here? I. I don't know if I have a story I don't know that matches the quality of your story or the situation, at least of your story.

[Cormac]

Yeah. Well, let's just say this was early on in my children's lives. We were in New York. We were touring around. We had lunch, and one of my kids got food poisoning and started feeling worse and worse and worse. And so.

[Ed]

And you're like, just push through it. We got stuff to see.

[Cormac]

The trip was like. We were getting close to the Guggenheim, and we were gonna go and do that anyway. And this child couldn't wait much longer. So my wife rushed kid into the bathrooms, and the lady's like, oh, you can't go. And she's like, look, it's either you clean. I either get to the bathroom, or you're cleaning up a mess.

[Ed]

Right here.

[Cormac]

And so when she finally got said kid, I. I can't, like, identify. Which.

[Ed]

You can't out them.

[Cormac]

Yeah, I can't help them, just in case. And so they. It was a. Let's just say we now refer to it as the googan slime. And we feel like that end and

[Ed]

not the other end.

[Cormac]

Both. Both.

[Ed]

So maybe. Maybe it's the. Yeah, no, I'm not gonna say it.

[Cormac]

Yes. So. So, yeah, so we took out two different bathrooms, and instead of. So, like, I'm standing in the lobby looking up at the skylight and the. The swirls, and that is the extent of my. My trips to the Guggenheim. Now, one time, I did go there, and again, it was just the lobby because I wanted to take a picture of the medallion. Right as you walk in the front door. Yeah, because you've heard my little thing there. If you look at that medallion and you take a picture of that medallion, and then you walk down to the oculus, and you sit there, and there's a vantage point where you look at the medallion and you look at the oculus, and you swear it's the same thing.

[Ed]

Yeah, I'm looking at the medallion right now, and I visited both of these locations that you did not look like.

[Cormac]

Yeah, see, people are like, what are you talking about? I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. You just. Just look it up. Just look up the medallion at the, you know, Guggenheim lobby, and then you just pull up a picture of the. The oculus, and. Yeah, somebody had to be inspired, or it was just dumb. Dumb luck.

[Ed]

Coincidence. Yeah.

[Cormac]

Yeah. But anyway, so, yeah, that's mine. And I'm hoping that your googan honey story is not the same.

[Ed]

I mean, there's not much of a story, so. Yeah, it doesn't. Doesn't compete on that on any level with. With your experience at the Goo. But it was my second time visiting, and this time was. It was a beautiful visit. I mean, it's just a beautiful, beautiful space. And what's so cool is how much you get to experience it, because you just go in, you get to look up, and as architects do, your mouth, your jaw drops open, and then you go all the way to the top on the elevator, and then you work your way all the way down, and it's. It's really a wonderful experience. And my wife got to join me, and so, for the first time, got to go to the Goog, and she was like, this is incredible. So that was cool.

[Cormac]

Is that what you call it? Is that what they call it? The goog.

[Ed]

That's what I call it.

[Cormac]

I don't. That's okay.

[Ed]

I don't think they. They probably don't approve of that.

[Cormac]

Probably don't approve of my name either. But they also have probably my picture and my family's pictures on the wall.

[Ed]

You're on the list.

[Cormac]

Do not let them back in this building. Right. They've soiled. Literally.

[Ed]

Yes.

[Cormac]

This. This sacred place.

[Ed]

Defaced it. So I got to go to New York because it was colicked. Oh, that's not good. Jeez.

[Cormac]

Sorry to get that last one in.

[Ed]

So I got to go visit because I was invited to moderate a panel discussion at the AEC Tech Conference, which is a AEC Tech conference put on by the core studio of Thornton Tomasetti, which is their kind of digital R D advanced group that does amazing work and it was a great event. If anybody out there is into AEC Tech, I think it's probably. I'm trying to think of the other ones that are out there. I would say it's top tier for sure. I haven't been to all the other ones, so I probably shouldn't rank it, but. Wow. And it's an all week long thing. It's Tuesday through Friday. They do firm tours, they have workshops. Then the day that I was there, they have a day long presentations and panel discussions and then they do a two day hackathon after that. And so teams kind of form and come up with an idea and then go at it all night long if they want to, and then present their ideas the next day. And there's prizes and winners and community and all these cool things. So overall, like it's a pretty incredible event. And they actually did five of these this year. So all over the world. They did them in London and Chicago and all over the place. So this is the culminating event and the biggest one. There were about 300 people there. And I just released an episode today of the panel discussion that I moderated. I recorded it also so that more people could hear it who couldn't visit. So if you want to check out the episode that I put up, I'll put a link to it in the show notes so you can hear that. But my panel discussion was four people on the panel who are all in top leadership positions in firms who got to those positions through a technology. I don't want to call it a track, but through a career trajectory around that of technology. And so, I mean, that's kind of what I would call maybe a newer shift in firm leadership development where you actually have technology people at the table making decisions for firms. And so it was a really great, insightful conversation about kind of their journeys to those positions.

[Cormac]

Is this something similar to the, like a director of digital practice or something like that?

[Ed]

CTO, CIO and even CEO, at least CEO elect of HKs. So the four people on the panel, we had Jonathan Nelson from Populous, he is a global leader of their technology arena. Nerva Farashetian, who is at CBT Architects in Boston, which we visited at the AIA conference. And then there was Heath May, who is the CEO elect of hks. And HKS is a global firm. And then Shane Berger of som, who is like their chief design officer, technology officer.

[Cormac]

Seems like a small firm. Never heard of.

[Ed]

Yeah, you may not have heard of som, probably Boutique. Yeah. So, I mean, it's just pretty incredible to see their journey to get to those positions and get to talk to them about it. And my goal was actually to really have the audience drive the questions. And so I'm kind of tired of presentations. Here's a one way, not a discussion, right? And so I really wanted to turn it into a discussion. So I kicked off with an initial question and then I completely turned it over to the audience and let them drive the questions. And they brought it. And they brought some super insightful, really illuminating questions. And so I thought, if there's anybody out there who's, you know, this is one of the things that we didn't get in school, right. We didn't get. You could go down a technology path and work your way to firm leadership or have your own firm or any of those things. It was like, you can be a designer. You should really be a designer. Right? And then there was project management, and then there was technical, but the emphasis was always on design. And there was really no other perspective given. And I don't know that there even was another perspective back then. We're old. Let's be honest.

[Cormac]

We're old. But you're old.

[Ed]

You're old.

[Cormac]

Wow. You're grayer.

[Ed]

I'm grayer. On. Well, if I grew the beard, I

[Cormac]

would be even more.

[Ed]

I would be a white beard

[Cormac]

Santa.

[Ed]

Yeah, but that, like I said, that wasn't even a thing for us. And then that has happened over the last 25, 30 years right to now. It is a viable path. And I think it's still a very big question mark for a lot of people of how does that even work? Because it's still not something that is really brought up in any kind of Conversation around the ascension of leadership and corporate ladders and all those things for new graduates to being a long time in a career.

[Cormac]

So though I don't want to, I want to encourage everyone to go and to listen to the episode. But what were some of your kind of like key takeaways just, or, or maybe like something that was interesting about like their path that kind of took them from what we were just talking about as kind of like the traditional path of an architect to leadership, to somebody who is more of technology based career path, which back in the day would have probably just limited them in kind of like pigeonhole them into a specific thing and not really or something. Exactly, exactly. Yeah.

[Ed]

Right. Well, I think the thing that, that we need to acknowledge is that we don't do architecture without technology. Like, there actually isn't such thing anymore as a quote unquote digital practice. Like, and our whole lives have. It's, it's interwoven, right? It's, it is, there is a, you can call it a technology layer, but it's, it's everywhere. It's in everything. It's in how you order your food, it's to how you go to the car wash, to how you do your banking, to your doctor's visits. It's everything. It's everywhere. Right?

[Cormac]

Yeah. I mean you essentially have to drop the digital part of practice and it's just practice because that's what practice is these days. And if you aren't practicing that way, you're either doing like really small projects or you're not going to be around much longer.

[Ed]

Well, and, and I could, it's an intentional choice for some architects who are still practicing and it's like, well, the ship has sailed and I don't need to do that. And not only that, it's intimidating and frustrating and there's, there's real downsides to it as well. Especially.

[Cormac]

Well, but I mean, I mean isn't every, isn't every practice, regardless, large, small and everywhere in between still influenced by the way that you implement all the technologies into the way that you do it? Whether it's, oh, I'm just a sole practitioner and I just do some form of bim, or I still do cad or I still do things like that, it's still interwoven into the way that you practice. I mean, the second, like where I'm going is like there was the old, olden days where we were just kind of like going from pencil to cad and we just sort of still looked at it as more of an extension Of a. Of a drafting table. Right. And now it is so interwoven into the way that we manage projects, manage all of the different aspects of it, finances, marketing, everything that it's not. There is not one thing that isn't influenced by technology of some form. Fashion or.

[Ed]

Yeah, whatever. I'm imagining there's a few people listening who are shaking their fists at the, at the cloud right now and which cloud? Not the construction cloud that you were talking about earlier, or maybe they are, but there's definitely people out there who are like, whatever. And I totally get it. It's. It's a thing that you have to contend with. And you can. Well, you can also choose not to contend with it. That's a legitimate decision as well. But modern practice, and especially big firms, of which the representatives on my panel were all from, recognize that this is a thing, that there needs to be a path to leadership for these people because they understand it. And if the firm is only increasingly digital, you need someone in leadership or some people in leadership who deeply, deeply understand this stuff. And so I think if I, if there's one big takeaway was for me was just in the quality of the thoughtfulness of the answers that they gave. And because the conversation was varied, because the audience was asking questions, it was not like a linear progression of tell the story about your ascension to whatever position they were in. It was coming from, how do you adopt technology? How. Tell me about the kind of people that the last person you hired. Like, it was all over the place. But the, the length to which they went to answer these questions was really, really incredible because it was nuanced and they really showed how well they understood the question. But also they were really trying to give people insight into the thought process, whatever that, Whatever it needed to happen to answer that question fully. And I think that to me is like that vulnerability of putting it all out there is something we don't see that often in a dialogue with leadership in the profession.

[Cormac]

Yeah. And it shows how. I mean, now I have. I'm going to admit to you that I haven't obviously seen it, so.

[Ed]

Because it just came out today. Yes.

[Cormac]

Hot. Hot off the presses. And so it is. And I am looking forward to. To it. But I can just sort of imagine that this is kind of showcases like, the mastery that you need in understanding not only where your firm is going, but where the profession is going. And we're not just talking about the profession of architect, the whole AEC industry and how it's going about and moving forward. And to be vital and viable in the profession, you need that mastery. You need that understanding. You need to know where your firm needs to position itself.

[Ed]

And I would take that further and say you need people who. To build on what you just said. Yes. You need that, and you need role models in those positions.

[Cormac]

Yes.

[Ed]

Yes.

[Cormac]

Yeah.

[Ed]

And to me, these people are examples that the audience, and I think the audience of this podcast, should they be interested in that could strive and look at and just be like, wow, okay, there's somebody that I can identify with or pieces of those individuals and say, there's a path for me that I didn't realize was a path for me, because my professors in school never talked about that as an option.

[Cormac]

Yeah. And. And we. We're always getting fielded that question of, what if I don't want to be the traditional architect? Like, like I am. I'm a traditional architect. I want to see a project from A to Z and all of those other things. And I have, like, I'm going to say, and as you know, I have an understanding of how technology affects the process. And you know, what I do, I don't have a mastery. I don't have a mastery of it. And I say, just show me what I need to know so I can get this project done kind of thing. But that's not what we're looking for, and that's not what the profession needs. And so there is those people out there that are like, look, I like doing this, and it's understanding how I do my stuff, but then how other people in other realms of the profession. And again, when I keep saying profession, I don't just mean architecture, as you're saying, it's the AEC industry and how all of that stuff works together. I mean, really, those are the. And these are. Even what I say to my students is like, you're the ones who are going to reshape the profession. And you're at just this, like, we understand the technology of the tools we use. You know, so, like, I'm over here Flint napping with Revit. Right. But, like, that's just. That's like nothing. That's just a tool for me to, like, produce drawings. Right. That is not what is influencing the profession.

[Ed]

Yeah, there. There was one answer to a question which was in regards to the last person that those individuals hired. And I wanted to highlight because I especially. I'm thinking about your students right now. I'm thinking about how do you make a way in this profession for yourself and what can you do to position yourself for success. And because one of the answers to that question points in a direction that I thought was really insightful, and that is Shane Berger from SOM talked about the last person he hired and why he hired that person. Okay, so there's obviously portfolio folios and there's, you know, there's all these things that you could. You could use as examples of your work ethic or your things you're interested in, whatever. But the reason he hired the last person that he talked about was because of their enthusiasm for what they do. And that excitement got him excited. And then it just said, okay, here's an opportunity for somebody who's really excited about something to get some room for a Runway to, like, real. And resources working at som, right? There's resources available to just, like, see what can happen. And even said that this person is even presenting ideas that are six months a year away of things that they want to be able to do over time. And he's like, it's absolutely incredible to watch this person just go. And I think that that's a really great kind of indicator of something that anybody can leverage to their advantage is passion, right? It's excitement and passion for what you're doing. And it doesn't matter if it's technology. It could be design, it could be people oriented. It can be so many different things. But how many. How many times have you seen students present their work and they just seem like they're bored with it, and they just seem like, oh, I'm just checking the boxes now. And like, that is a silent killer, right? Like that if somebody's bored with something, it's a clue that, like, they're not into it. Right. And I thought that it was just a nice reminder that we need to be excited in the work that we're doing and. Well, and that's hard sometimes to be excited in everything, but to find that spark that really is something that you're excited about and excited about sharing it as well, to me, is. Is a. An indicator for that.

[Cormac]

So I know that this is going to sound generic when I say this, but I. So in one of the juries that I was on, not of my own class, but of another, a friend of mine's actually a friend of our shows, Kurt, who he was teaching a earlier studio last year, and he had invited the AIA Michigan president, who is also the dean of another architecture school nearby in the Detroit area. And what was interesting about it, and I loved. I love learning how to be on a jury from other jurors And I loved the way that his enthusiasm about the profession and really showing an interest in what they were doing kind of. Kind of shaped how I would kind of, like, re. Ask some of these. The questions that I ask. But the one that actually was really interesting was as he started this whole thing off, and he would ask, did you have fun? Did you enjoy this? What excited you about. What are you excited about, exactly? And I was just like, why aren't we asking those questions? Like, why is it? Why is it? It's just like, oh, are you sure that this is where you should put your door? Or tell me how you get trash out of this building? Those are the.

[Ed]

Get out of here.

[Cormac]

Exactly. It's like, you're in school. You're. You're. We're trying to make the next generation of architects. Are you having fun? Do you enjoy this? Like, is this exciting? You? Like, this whole process? Like, what did you learn from it? What do you know? Like, what are you gonna be able to, like, just take with you into the career to show. To show everybody else and including yourself how much you actually love doing this and want to learn more and all these other things?

[Ed]

Because it's not always gonna be like that. Right? Like, let's be totally honest. Like, you have, but still very difficult days, difficult problems, difficult clients. And sure, that Sparks needs to find its way up to the surface sometimes. And if it can, I mean, that's. That's what keeps you in the career over the long.

[Cormac]

Well, so. So think about this. I mean, you and I have talked about this on numerous occasions on both the podcast and just when we're walking around buildings together and stuff. And it's just like, these constant reminders of why we do what we do and why we search out those reminders when times are tough, when things are hard, when, you know the project's beating you down or the clients have beaten you down, or you're just. You're just exhausted, and there's people who are just like, why the hell do I do this to myself? But the funny thing is, is that then they find. Then they remind themselves why they do this, because they do have that excitement. They do have that spark. They do have that love and passion for what they do, and. And it. And so they're searching for it. But I'm kind of digressing from, like, where we're at, but I mean, what was interesting about it is, as you were talking about, like, the reason why they. They hired this. This person was. Is because they had excitement in that, and honestly, if they have an excitement and passion for that in the true excitement, true passion for it, even in the tough times, they're going to keep looking for that. They're going to keep kind of pushing in it and elevating what they do

[Ed]

well, how lucky is that person also to find a place that sees that as a. As a potential in that person? And because how many positions exist where it's like, we just need you to run the revit. Right. We just need you to click faster, more. Right. And we need to. Yeah. I mean, there's. There's definitely an issue in the profession with that kind of hiring procedure. Right. Just to fill a need and all firms have to fulfill needs, but also to be able to match that to passion and potential and creativity and excitement, rather than sticking somebody in a position and then saying, okay, now you're not going to be creative and you're going to work a lot and you're going to click a lot and you're going to not sleep as much. And you're right. Like, there's all of these downsides to

[Cormac]

it versus the upside going to be at that firm.

[Ed]

Yeah.

[Cormac]

You just kind of pitched it. Was joking with some of my students and they're just like, yeah, yeah, I know that when I get to a firm, I'm going to start my career off doing toilet room details and stuff like that. And it just seems to be like they're already positioning some themselves to kind of almost be let down in the profession before they even get there.

[Ed]

Right. There's some like a healthy attitude to say, like, I understand that I have a lot of learning to do, but yeah, what you're talking about, I see what you're saying there. It's like, we need to watch out for that as leaders in firms, we need to watch out so that that doesn't just become the hole that they are pigeonholed into. Right. Because how many times, I mean, maybe, you know, somebody like this Cormac failing, but it's like, you're so good at what you do. The reward for great work is more work. Right?

[Cormac]

Like, yeah, yeah. So actually what was funny is just I gave the, the very quintessential Corvick response to the one who's just like, well, I'm just going to be doing bathroom plants. And then as I was looking, I was just like, well, you know why they are going to make you do bathroom plants? Because you lay out bathrooms like that. And I was pointing at their path

[Ed]

because you got a lot to Learn.

[Cormac]

Because you got a lot of learning. No, actually that. Funny enough I made the joke, but the. The team was just filled with a bunch of, like, very talented kids that I just don't want them to lose. Like, I want them to go into a profession already jaded with expectations of limitations. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ed]

Well, there was. There was a lot of other amazing presentations. I think that they've all been recorded and put on The Core Studios YouTube channel. Don't quote me on that, but maybe by the time this episode is live, they should be up there. So if they are, we'll put a link in the show. Notes. I do want to talk about another thing that I visited there in New York, though, that I thought was super inspirational. What was that little island?

[Cormac]

Another one that is literally like a bucket list of, like, how close have I been yet still not gone.

[Ed]

Right, Right. Well, I. And I want to say the last time I was there, it was maybe still under construction, maybe the last time I saw it, but this was the first time I actually got to go experience it. I can't remember exactly. Like, maybe it was really close to opening but not available, or we didn't have time. I can't remember. But. Because it was definitely, like, after the AIA conference that we went to when we were in New York. Right, that. I think it was built a year or two maybe after that.

[Cormac]

Yeah, it was.

[Ed]

Yeah, something like that. But wow. Super cool. So Little island is a park that sits out over the Hudson river like a pier, but it's these.

[Cormac]

I don't know what a real pier is.

[Ed]

You know, it's a reimagining of a pier and a park. So it's this.

[Cormac]

It's.

[Ed]

It's very cool. And so it's by Thomas Heatherwick's studio. And so what's really interesting about it is how similar it is to the High Line, and yet it's very different. Right. So. Yeah, yeah, because it's not repurposing. It's. It's a new. It's a new construction project. It's very immersive, and, I don't know, you explore it. They encourage you to explore it. But. But in the same, like, vertical. I don't know what's the right. What's the right word? It's like the same. It's in the same kind of context as the High Line, where it's a. It's a landscape project that is also infrastructure that is also a little bit of architecture, and it's just really well designed.

[Cormac]

It is Replacing the. The pier structures that were there. And that kind of like dot that whole. That whole shoreline up and down.

[Ed]

Right.

[Cormac]

What is it? West Manhattan shoreline. And. And so it is a reimagining, but it takes it in such a completely different direction in the way that it's like, okay, normally we've got. We drive piles into the ground. We put a little flat surface on there, and then maybe some park benches and all of these other things.

[Ed]

There's some Astroturf.

[Cormac]

Yeah. And there's the pier. And then. And then Heather Wick, in very Heather Wick kind of fashion says, yeah, no, let's do it this way.

[Ed]

Super experiential. And that, to me, is the Heatherwick kind of through line, Right? Yes. It's the human experience and the human scale of things. And I mean, that really reads in this project.

[Cormac]

Yeah. I mean, almost like it. It's. It's on my bucket list of New York things to go and see. Maybe I might actually do that along with finally getting into the Guggenheim. But everybody that goes there had a co worker who was just recently there as well and took their family there. And so it was just. It was interesting because he was like, kind of talking about how not only the way that he experienced it as an architect, then the way that his kids experienced it thing was completely different. And it was just this kind of. I mean, he was just enamored by the whole thing.

[Ed]

It is enamorable. Yeah. It's beautiful.

[Cormac]

Yeah. Yeah. We need more of those. I do.

[Ed]

I mean, that. That is really a great point that you. We need more of these. Of course, they're bigger budgets. Of course they take longer, and they are so worth it. Like, it is just such an amazing resource for the people who get to experience it.

[Cormac]

Where has the whimsy gone? Yeah, it's. It's like. I mean, what is it? The vessel? Is that what it's called? I always call it the Pine cone, but I mean, it is.

[Ed]

It's.

[Cormac]

It's a folly that is purely intended to be something that is. That affects your experience of a place. Right. It's like, okay, you're there, you're outside of the vessel. You're looking at the vessel, and you're like, what the hell is this thing all about? Then you go and you start walking around and walking up the vessel, and you're like, oh, look at this. And you're getting these different perspectives of a New York that you wouldn't have seen in the way that you would have seen it if you weren't up in the air. Like, like you are. And it's just these. These fun and whimsical little things that just, it's, as you said, purely an experiential thing. And it doesn't have to, like, I've heard people criticize, like, well, what's purpose? Does it surf to have fun? Is that okay? Are you all right with that?

[Ed]

Like, well, I think it was a part. A premise in the question that. No, it's not okay.

[Cormac]

Yeah, it's like. And. And I've. I've even heard a few little, like, negative comments about the. The island. What is it called? The island.

[Ed]

Little island.

[Cormac]

Little island. And, and I just, again, it's. You. Why not get playful with place? In fact, actually, what's interesting is that there is a part of the assignment that the students are working on right now where they do have to do a little bit of, like, place making of a site next to the building that they're creating to kind of, like, tie it in to that, but also kind of create kind of this. This accessible park for everybody to kind of enjoy. And, and what I've sort of explained to them is, like, it doesn't just have to be like a couple of paths in a couple of park benches, unless that's what you're going for as, like, you can't have fun. Get whimsical with it. Get playful. Just do something that is kind of unconventional but still pushing to have a little bit of fun with it.

[Ed]

I always loved and totally took responsibility for Hardscape. And, oh, yeah, I'm not going to pick plants. I'm not going to. I am not going to try to do the landscape architect's job. I mean, that is not an easy job, actually, and it's not. But I love the integration of architecture and landscape, which I call hardscape. Maybe that's the wrong word, but, like, to me, to me, that is such a fun design problem. Design challenge. It's really cool.

[Cormac]

And to me, it's. It's kind of an imperative, right? I mean, like, you design a building, okay, so you set the thing down on the landscape. Is that it? Is that you're done? Like, is that where the design starts and stops? I mean, what about the experience, the procession to the building? You know, what about, like, how you actually weave your way there? Think about, like, how you've got, like, even. Even the simple little moves that, like, let's just say like Wright did, where he would bring you up to a place, but then you wouldn' and you would always sort of like, turn away from the entrance and then turn towards the entrance and then in kind of curate the way that you're experiencing, not just the architecture, but the place and how they are integrated together with landscape and everything else. And I mean, to me, that's all part of the. Like, that's all part of the program.

[Ed]

Well, that's part of that human experience. Right. Like, it's not like I'm not in the building now I'm in the building and there was no transition. I mean, well, of course, that happens quite often. Right. And it's harsh. It's super harsh.

[Cormac]

Yeah. It's not like the kind of like the traditional MEP solution of it's just like, well, five feet outside of my building. Well, that's all the civil engineer's job. So I'm done, wash my hands of it, like, kind of thing. You're like. But it's like. But for us, it's like, wouldn't the experience be better if we were able to kind of curate how we got to our building and how we saw and experience not just the. The four walls and roof, but the experience to it?

[Ed]

Yeah. I don't know.

[Cormac]

Maybe I'm just a weird. Maybe we're just weird.

[Ed]

Well, I think part of it comes from my appreciation of nature and the outdoors.

[Cormac]

Right.

[Ed]

And I know not everybody has that, but that to me is what's always driving that is like, how can I weave these things together?

[Cormac]

So. So you have gone to Taliesin west and I've gone to Taliesin. I. It's not easy.

[Ed]

Just. Just. That's it.

[Cormac]

Just Taliesin.

[Ed]

Yeah.

[Cormac]

In one of the strengths of the experience of. Let's just call it a house, isn't the fact that you're just getting it, oh, I'm going to walk up to the front door and go into the house. It is how he curates you through the landscape, all of the spaces that are created, all of these, like, little moments of. Of like, just discovery. Right. That. That aren't architecture as in, like, this. This is the wall, this is the window and all this other stuff, but it's all of the other things that makes that wall spatial and everything. Exactly. Yeah. And. And with that. And then. So, like, because it even extends into the building, because then when you go inside and you're looking at how it's positioned on the site and you have

[Ed]

that connection back out.

[Cormac]

Exactly.

[Ed]

Yeah.

[Cormac]

And if we're not doing that,

[Ed]

why you're leaving. You're leaving money on the Table.

[Cormac]

Exactly. Exactly. Totally.

[Ed]

Yeah. I mean, do you have any other examples of architects who do that really? Well, off the top of your head? I'm trying to think. Well, I think it's. We see it more often now because of a lot more green walls, green roofs, things like that. But the. Even the old case study houses with courtyard designs where there was an outdoor room in the middle of a house that all these rooms got to look into. There's so many good examples of this.

[Cormac]

My little summer trips and things. And then when I went for my daughter's spring break down, back down to Florida and I dropped her off so that she could go have fun at the amusement park, and I went to go have amusement park of my own, which was going and visiting. Visiting a couple of different architectural campuses. And what was interesting about that is, like, the difference between the experience of, like, this new campus that was the center, that the centerpiece of this campus is Calatrava's building, which obviously there's. I'm hoping that there's more to come to really kind of like, set the stage of, like, this experience. Really. It was sort of not there yet, or hopefully it's coming, but it was not there.

[Ed]

It's in the master plan.

[Cormac]

Yeah. Yes. But then you go to Florida Southern, and Florida Southern College is the college that Frank Lloyd Wright did. And what I would. What I find amazing, every single time I go there is just a different experience. And it's not just. And rarely do I actually go in buildings, because this is an active campus and I'm not going to be trespassing into somebody's classroom or something. But it's the experience of the buildings in the landscape. And it just showed the. The mastery of an architect who, whether or not he was from an area, understood the environment he was designing in and could capture the spirit of that place. And I. Here I am as somebody who grew up in Florida, and I'm looking at Florida Southern, who was designed by a Midwestern. Midwesterner who really didn't have strong connections to Florida really. And he'd created probably one of the most Florida places that I've ever actually been to. And there's a lot of, like, Florida places, but they don't. Like, this felt like Florida. Like, you're just like. If you could. If you could, like, capture what the essence of a place is in architecture, in site planning, in landscaping, in this whole kind of like, effort of place making. That's probably one of the best ones, honest. Yeah, it is. It. It's. I was dumbfounded. I'm sitting there under the canopies, and I'm thinking to myself, this dude captured the. The essence of seeking out shade and shelter underneath the canopies of trees during a hot Florida summer day when you're just looking for a little bit of breeze to kind of provide you with some relief from the sun and. And. Or if it starts to rain. And I'm standing there underneath these canopies, and I'm looking at the way that, like, the. The colonnade of supports for the canopies are, and you just, like, this feels like you're looking for some live oaks to hide under or to find some shade and stuff. And it just felt like Florida. Wow. I'm like, dude didn't know squat about Florida probably before he started doing this. And it was. It was kind of impressive. And. And so it's. Those kind of people, the Heatherwicks, the. The Fifers. Fifer is another great one. That they just understand the mission isn't just about the building. It's about this. It's about everything that. The building, the integration. Yes.

[Ed]

Yeah, yeah. Completely, completely agree. Well, I hope you get to experience Little island and the other bucket list stuff that you haven't been to yet in New York, but there's always more.

[Cormac]

So I just happened to glance over and I just found this little pink post it where I sat and did a little quick scribble sketch of you. See, I've got you. I got your wispy hair going on there. Got your little soul patch.

[Ed]

You're. You're. It's a caricature. You're a caricature artist. Look at you. Good job. You're an architect and a caricature artist.

[Cormac]

Hi, Ed. Hey, how are you doing? And a veritriloquist.

[Ed]

All right, all right, Enough of that already. Talk to you next time.

[Cormac]

Yeah.