Cormac (1:51)

you've got other projects that some are. Some are in the starting phase and some are in the nearing end phase. And what that's interesting is the one that's in the nearing end phase. We are about to celebrate our decade anniversary of this project, and we'll go.

Interviewer (2:10)

Are you the only one keeping track? Are you keeping.

Cormac (2:13)

Oh, no, not everybody who's so.

Interviewer (2:17)

And you've been on it continuously.

Cormac (2:19)

So we've. I've been on it continuously, and a couple of the guys that are out on site, they've been on it continuously. In fact, even one of them. Actually, both of them pretty much have. This has been their only job since they've joined the firm. And one of them, he has been on it from the start, and this has been his one and only project.

Interviewer (2:43)

I mean, you know, what does he think about that do you know, have you talked to him?

Cormac (2:47)

Yeah, I mean, we talk about it often because it. It's a challenge. And in some cases, if you think about it, projects are there that long, this complicated, very demanding, from a variety of different challenges. Obviously, we went through Covid on this project, and even Covid gave us the opportunity to redesign after we had already started construction. And so, I mean, this was quite a challenging thing. And the interesting thing about it, and I love their perspective of this, is that, well, who better to do it than the people who really know this project?

Interviewer (3:28)

So that continuity is super important.

Cormac (3:30)

Exactly. And even though it's been a challenge and even though it's been a slog, I mean, obviously projects this long kind of weigh heavy mentally on you, professionally on you, they at least they're all understanding and have the perspective that this is our project. I don't want to see anybody else finish this.

Interviewer (3:50)

They have a lot of ownership.

Cormac (3:52)

Yeah, we want to finish this.

Interviewer (3:55)

So. And at the same time, have they. Have they had any other projects that they've been working on?

Cormac (4:00)

They've helped out with, like, little things here and there, but the demands that they have, I mean, especially since they're doing the construction administration portion, and for a project of this size, scale and magnitude, they. They've been very. 40 hours a week easy on these, on this project for several years.

Interviewer (4:23)

Because of the complexity.

Cormac (4:24)

Yeah, because of the complexity. I mean, we're. We're talking about a project that currently, right now, including all of the FF&E and coordination of everything and move ins and everything else, we're. We're closing in on. Not sure if I'm supposed to say this out loud, but I'll say it anyway. 600 billion. It's a big project, Big complex project. And so it's one of those that it, it needs caretaking. And I, the, the folks that are on it, I couldn't imagine a better bunch of people. But also, you couldn't also imagine something this complex that has been going on for this long to kind of like change hands to somebody else that doesn't understand all of the decisions that were made throughout the whole entire process.

Interviewer (5:14)

So what keeps them. Because this is a choice, right? I mean, there's always choices. You could. I mean, maybe they're completely fulfilled. Maybe the challenges are like something they get up in the morning looking forward to. I can't imagine it's always like that.

Cormac (5:27)

But I was gonna say, let's be honest.

Interviewer (5:28)

No, let's be honest. That's an ideal kind of A situation that's rarely, rarely, rarely happens, especially in projects that take 10 years. And I mean, we had my friend of the show, Israel Pena, on to talk about the Beverly Hills project that he worked on. I believe it was 13.

Cormac (5:45)

Yeah.

Interviewer (5:45)

And man, that was not all roses. I remember when I worked on that project, and it wasn't roses way back then. And so, and so as it, as it starts, people say, as it starts, so it goes. But. But that's 10 years of complex, challenging work. And so, so the choice is like, you don't have to stay working at a time and working on that project. And so, like, what do you think the mentality is there that has enabled that happens? So that, like you said, like, that that is an. Actually a better position to be in with that continuity and that, that experience throughout the whole thing, knowing why decisions were made, when they were made, who they were made by, all that stuff is. And if you were to transition, transition in fresh, you would be at such a disadvantage. So what is keeping them there?

Cormac (6:38)

And if you think about it, you've probably been in this situation where you've had. You've adopted projects that somebody else has left the firm and you've taken over. And I recall, I recall one of my first real complex projects at a new firm that not only was I new to the firm, but now I'm adopting a project that has already broken ground. I'm taking over the construction administration. And you go in and of course, obviously, you have to toe the line of, like, whatever decisions were made by your firm, you have to stick with those. And, and so, like, when somebody says, why did you do this? Or why did you do that? You're like, I'll find out.

Interviewer (7:21)

I'll try to find out.

Cormac (7:22)

Exactly. I don't know. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And. And so one of the things early on, one, both of these guys are that we have on the job right now, who've been there throughout, pretty much all of it. And one of them was actually, what was funny, one of them was an intern. He was getting ready to graduate with his master's degree. And so he was a summer intern for us. And he was working on the project, helping us prepare for the permit submission. So we make the permit submission, Covid happens all this other stuff, he graduates, he comes back to work with us, and the first thing that he does is help us. Jumps right back on and helps us go through the permit submission again. He's like, wait, didn't we just do this two years ago? Deja vu. Yes.

Interviewer (8:12)

And it's different.

Cormac (8:13)

Yeah. And. And so it really is one of those where now they are fully vest invested in the project and they are so dedicated to seeing their baby grow up and come into fruition. And everybody felt the sense of ownership on there. Now we've had people retire, we've had people leave, but the core group of folks that have been working on this project since day one are still there. And how about this? In a future episode, I'll have both of them on and we'll have this conversation with them because I really would like to actually understand their perspective. I mean, I understand my perspective and my perspective is this. Who better to do a project than the people who started the project, especially through construction administration? Like I said, I was one of the stakeholders in the design and documentation of it. So I know it as well as anybody else does. And then in these two, they're in the exact same boat. They had a stakeholder stake in the design, in the documentation, and have seen the. And have been the consistency through all of construction administration. Has it been a challenge? Absolutely. Has there been ups? Great, yes. Have there been downs? Plenty. But both of them, at the end of the day, still just power through it. Because you ask yourself, if not me, who.

Interviewer (9:42)

You sound like a. You sound like you're a pitch person for the army or something. So I have a question about that. What makes a project take so long? So I think when you were a graduate, how long did you think projects like in the commercial space, let's say, how long did you kind of do it, that they were going to.

Cormac (10:03)

It was, it was sort of interesting is because there was plenty of projects that in, in. In the firms that I've worked for in the past, very similar to the firms that you worked for in the past that we did a lot of like public, public works, rec centers, schools, you name it. We were doing things like that, fire stations and stuff. And so some of the times we'll get a project where it's fully funded and so start from finish, we're looking at maybe like a two year, two and a half year project kind of thing for like say a fire station or something like that. And we're talking about design through construction, to handing over the key. And then you have those that are a little bit more complex in both the way, the way that they're funded as well as the way that they're phased. Especially phase, while occupied, as you know all too well, are things that can be a challenge that then draw out the schedule a little bit more and we've worked on like the average project that I have typically work on that is in a renovation or revitalization or an adaptive reuse, which is kind of somewhat of my speciality. Those usually tend to take the longest because of all of the upper scenes that you're dealing with and everything else. And then you take one that's as mammoth as this one. So now we're talking about say 600,000 square feet and we're dealing with a lot of both existing building and new building, trying to retrofit a very high end research laboratory spaces into it. And that those are challenges in their own right. Even if they, if you were building ground up, those are challenges. But then to. Then to do them while they're phase. While occupied, sandwiched in an urban environment between most of the campus's historic buildings, sitting over the top of their sitewide utilities and their sitewide steam line and their sitewide tunnel system that carries patients and stuff throughout the complex as well. It poses an interesting challenge.

Interviewer (12:12)

Yeah. In so logistics it's like planning. Everything takes longer. Everything just takes longer because everything just takes all of those layers. Yeah.

Cormac (12:21)

And, and so, and then you throw in the fact that there are Covid that we had that slowed everything down and then gave. Gave pause to the ownership or the leadership of this project and of the institution to think that are there things that we would do differently now that we know some of the global pandemic challenges that that we face and that they were on the forefront of. And so then you get to that stage and you're like, well, there are things that we would like to do differently. And so then there's redesign, then there's all of these other challenges that you have that come with that. And all in all, I mean everybody kept a good level head over the, the challenges that were faced throughout all of this. And just sometimes you just gotta take roll with the punches. The thing that I love telling these, these two guys that have been on my team for a very long time and on this project for a very long time is think about the opportunities that you've been given to basically deal with almost every complexity of almost any kind of project that you would ever deal with in one project your entire career could be wrapped up with like I've built new, I've done a renovation, I've done this, I've done that. It's just like every, every challenge that probably you and I have faced in, in a variety of different projects throughout our career, these guys are facing in one project alone.

Interviewer (13:54)

It's. Well, yeah, it's the same. It's the same time span.

Cormac (13:57)

Right.

Interviewer (13:57)

I mean the difference is with multiple projects you get to go through all the phases multiple times.

Cormac (14:03)

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Interviewer (14:04)

With this one you do not. And, and that, I mean there's maybe some advantages to the. That continuity, but career wise, it makes it a little bit trickier because you haven't.

Cormac (14:15)

It does it? It does. They're like, tell me like let's say for instance, they decide that they want to go look elsewhere. I really hope they don't. But let's, let's say they do. And they're like, well, show me your portfolio of all your built work. Like, here's one picture.

Interviewer (14:30)

But man, that experience is. That experience is so hard and really that exact.

Cormac (14:36)

In the after action like that once we like sit down with each other and just have that after action review of the project and everything that went right, wrong or indifferent on the project and the lessons learned. This is going to be a story and a half. This is going to be one of those.

Interviewer (14:57)

Is that even going to happen? I. I'm sorry, yeah. Do those happen?

Cormac (15:03)

They do. They do we.

Interviewer (15:05)

Because I feel like that is one of the things that firms struggle with in a major way.

Cormac (15:11)

How. How is. How what. Well, how do you phrase this? What are some of the best learning tools? The challenges, the failures, the things. That's when the learning. Things like this.

Interviewer (15:25)

Yeah, that's when the learning happens in.

Cormac (15:27)

In. And I think that there are a lot of stories now of, of. Boy, I wish I would have done it differently that we, we talk about on a daily basis as, as we're continuing to traverse through this project and we're hoping by end of year that this project is done and that we're on to the next thing. But it. To sit down and to be able to have the conversation with others about challenges that they are facing on their project and how we dealt with it on our project to kind of use that as a learning tool. And we're doing it even today. Like there was a post on our internal Internet where people were asking about these new requests from the city of Baltimore for identification, like signage identification for things like fire extinguishers and automatic emergency defibrillators and those things that are normally mounted on the wall, which in the past we wouldn't have signed them because they would have been. The sign would be on the actual like fire. Fire extinguisher cabinet or the aed. And so we. Now there's a new challenge and people are like, how are other people dealing with this? Well, we've gone through so many different code iterations that now as they're starting. Exactly. Is now that they think about that. Yes.

Interviewer (16:48)

Especially when you're resubmitting. So. But. But the code that you got it approved under stayed constant. No, it.

Cormac (16:57)

That's funny. So, yes and no. Any changes that we've made where that they've actually deemed it new work, even though it's new work associated with an open permit. This is just a wacky adventure that we've been on. They actually want it to be under the new code.

Interviewer (17:21)

Of course they do.

Cormac (17:22)

And so.

Interviewer (17:23)

Of course they do.

Cormac (17:23)

So there's been those challenges because guess what code we were under when this was.

Interviewer (17:27)

Oh, well, 2013. I don't know.

Cormac (17:29)

Or 2015.

Interviewer (17:30)

2015.

Cormac (17:31)

Yeah. We had just. So this was 2016 when we started in earnest on this.

Interviewer (17:37)

Okay.

Cormac (17:37)

We were. We were under the 2015 code, and there's been the multiple code since. But we're currently. They're currently actually as 2026 here where City of Baltimore is under the 2021 code. And. But there are a lot of advantages to the 202021 code that this building could have actually been something completely different in the way that they use it. Chemical storage, all sorts of.

Interviewer (18:04)

I'm sure there's things in both columns there, you know.

Cormac (18:06)

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But. But so you can choose, unfortunately. So then when you are. Seems like the city wants to pick and choose, but it's just one of that you just sort of like have to deal with and roll with and. And there's challenge upon challenge upon challenge of that. But yeah, it's. It's interesting. And then it's. It's funny. It's just like, would we have designed like, we're looking at the. The handrails on our stairs and we look at the handrails of newer projects and we're like, man, so much different now. The, The. The. The 12 +12 kind of like overrun of the handrail that was applicable to the 2015 is no longer applicable now. We would have designed them have been better. We wouldn't have had that like, extra 12 inches of intrusion into the path of travel. Blah, blah, blah. Yeah, but you're just like, man, I wish we would have at least had that done differently or that done differently. So there's all these like, little things that now you see that you do that. One of my favorite things about the whole adventures of the whole code thing was when we were going for A permit amendment for a couple of spaces that have changed over the course of the, of the construction. We're submitting these and they want us to now submit in the 2021 version. And there's a clear, there's, there's clear documentation within the, the codes with the code adoptions and everything else that states that we don't have to, that we should actually be doing it under the 2015 code. And and so as we're stating our case, their argument was well, if you were designing, if you were doing a renovation on a 100 year old building, would you let us, would you be expecting us to do, allow you to do this under 100 year old codes? Like wait, what? Like that doesn't make much sense. Like we are just saying that we are currently permitted under this and we should continue to be to keep building under this code that we are currently under permit for and 100 year old buildings.

Interviewer (20:20)

Permit still open. Like you're not comparing.

Cormac (20:24)

Exactly. And so it was just like I was somewhat flabbergasted but because I, you're

Interviewer (20:32)

like your logic isn't logic.

Cormac (20:34)

You, you can't, you can't say that with your code officials because remember they, they are the ones who hold my progress. Yes.

Interviewer (20:43)

Yeah, right. The risk is too high.

Cormac (20:45)

Just, the risk is too high. So you just, you just try to exactly like well, you know, what is the professional way of saying yeah, so. But it is, yeah, so it is just one of those interesting challenges and I, I love using it as an example because there I gotta tell you this. So funny enough, so as, as I was, as we were doing this and now I'm living in, in Michigan and I was going to a Detroit AIA continuing education course that was, was for the 2021 code. And it was one of those that they were talking about all the different changes from the 2015 code that they were under. They were jumping straight into the 2021 code. So there was this day long seminar for the changes in the code and they were going through all sorts of different things and somebody had brought up and they were going through the different hazards and all of this other stuff and they're just, they gave a what if? And they're just like well you would do this and this and this and this, but you would never do all of this. You wouldn't think about doing this like say if it was a high rise and all of this other stuff. And so Break comes around and he's, he's given so many different examples of what code could Allow. But you would. No one in their career has seen this ever happen. And I just. I'm literally sitting there with a smirk on my face with my computer open to the. To my code review pages. And I walk up to him and I'm just like, I just wanted to show you something. We're on break. And I was just like, this is all fantastic stuff. And I just. It was. It was interesting the. Where you were giving the scenario of the control areas and. And how control areas are looked upon in 2021 and how in the old code, they were like this. And nobody ever has to deal with things like this. So you're just going to kind of like, blush over. And I like, spin the. My computer screen around and I just let him look at it, and he's just doing there, he's staring at the code review sheet. He's like. He just starts chuckling. He's just like, well, I guess I have to change my. My little spiel now, because apparently not only did you deal with that, like, everything that I said, you would never deal with this, you've dealt with more. And it was just.

Interviewer (23:10)

There's always edge cases.

Cormac (23:11)

Yeah, there's a. There's those. There's those fridge cases. And I happen to just be one of those. And he always look. And so he was just like, would you mind if I share this when we resume? I'm like, absolutely, go ahead, share it. And it was so funny to just like. Because there was, like, plenty of people in there from all sorts of, like, large firms, very, very large international firms. We know all their names. And they're just like, yeah, like, that's just crazy. We would never do something like that. And then here's a guy that's not even. Doesn't even work for a firm that's local to the area that comes up and says, hey, I want to show you guys that there are those one in a million cases that you actually will deal with every weird nuance and gray area within the code. And here it is. Which was kind of fun. It was like, this is literally so. So you asked me, it's like, how. How do you kind of keep up for a project like this? And honestly, I. I think that this is one of those things that I always like to look back and say, think about it this way. How many other people in your profession are dealing with the things that you're dealing with? How many other people are. Let's just use the project that I'm doing in Saudi Arabia. How many other people are Designing a ground up university that is going to be the first mixed gender university in a country that has historically not had mixed gendered universities or education for the royal family that is in modern construction techniques and detailing, but also like integrating and hybridizing traditional adobe construction. How many other people in the world are doing that? How many other architects are doing that? And for the like that team that's now closing in on five years of, on this project, on that project, I was like, how many people, how many other people do you think can sit there and say that I'm like none other than us in the same thing.

Interviewer (25:28)

You're looking for that. You're looking for the silver linings, the, the unique. You sort of have things that those projects.

Cormac (25:35)

There's, there's so many projects and so many challenges and there's, there's times and you said is like there's times where a project, regardless of its complexity is going to just wear you down a little bit. And so there you have to. Those silver linings you have to find. Why am I doing this every day? Why am I coming to work? I mean, man, this sucks. Like I'm doing the same thing over and over and over again. Well, look for that like silver lining and like tell yourself why you're doing this, why you do this. I mean we love talking about like how we re energize ourselves by going and visiting other projects or architecture and things like that and traveling and all of this other stuff. And sometimes when you don't have that, you're just like on a project and you just. The grind kind of weighs down on you. You've got to figure out a way to kind of like lift yourself up so you're not stuck in the doldrums. And honestly I love just thinking like stopping and taking that deep breath for just one moment and say, what have, what have we done? Like, what have we created? What have we helped? A client who's envisioned something and we got to help materialize that. And me, I'm like, like the biggest, like the perennial nerd, geek, cheerleader, whatever. And, and I just kind of like that every so often, no matter how much something may either be really great or really suck, sometimes you just have to like say, look what we've done. Look at what we've done. Yeah.

Interviewer (27:15)

It's interesting to think about it from that perspective because it is hard to have that perspective in the day to day.

Cormac (27:23)

Absolutely, absolutely.

Interviewer (27:24)

Because the day to day, it is difficult. It is a grind. It's so funny because you see These job postings, right? It could be at Chipotle, it could be at an architecture firm, but it could also be Chipotle, right? And it's like we're looking for people who like fast paced and dynamic work environments, right? And it's like, I mean, yes, some of these things that you're talking about could definitely be qualified as fast paced and dynamic, right? Challenges and deadlines and design and like throw all that together and. Absolutely. Fast paced and dynamic. And a grind, like a serious grind, right? Because of all the bureaucracy you have to deal with, because of the personalities you have to deal with because of the technology and the setbacks and there's so many things that get like just our friction in the process and it takes a lot to step out of that. Like you're saying to step back, take that deep breath and like, try to look for that perspective. Because that storyline that you just said, like, who gets to do this? Is anybody else doing something? Like, what's that thing that makes it really special? That's a story and that's a story you're telling yourself, like, let's be honest. But at the same time, like, there's the meaning in it too, right?

Cormac (28:38)

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So, I mean, because we know, we know, you and I and everybody who's listening to this knows that as much glamour, there's grind and you have to, you have to put yourself in the pers. In your perspective, right? You've got, you've got to like step back, think about like most people aren't

Interviewer (29:05)

going to do that for someone else. So I think.

Cormac (29:08)

Exactly.

Interviewer (29:08)

You kind of do have to do it for yourself.

Cormac (29:10)

Yes. Yes.

Interviewer (29:11)

Yeah.

Cormac (29:12)

And hopefully a good project manager or something like that, when they're starting to realize that the team is wearing down and people are at their wit's end or nervous breakdown and stuff will recognize, hey, let's, let's pull this back a little bit. Let's gain a little bit of perspective maybe. Let's take it, let's, let's take a pause. Let's take that deep breath. Let's start to like really think about what we're doing and why we're doing it.

Interviewer (29:40)

Everybody, future of this profession, I mean, is it set up? Is it well positioned for that? Like what we're doing and why we're doing it? It seems like there's it especially right now, like in the technology space, right? Like in the pressure that it's kind of putting on seemingly everything. Yeah, man, it's, it's, it's tough to have that perspective? I think

Cormac (30:02)

yes it is.

Interviewer (30:03)

You, you have a history of that perspective to draw on.

Cormac (30:07)

Right?

Interviewer (30:08)

You have. And, and like new graduates don't like there's there's obviously kind of this wide eyed and, and excitement for what people could be walking into. And at the same time there's a darker side of it.

Cormac (30:20)

Remember we've talked in the past about like the thing that I always traditionally have either on a post it note or a printout or whatever.

Interviewer (30:28)

Question mark.

Cormac (30:29)

My question mark. Yeah. And the question mark ultimately is why. Right? It's the, the question is why? Why are we doing this? Why are we asking about this? Why did you make that decision? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? I always, I try to do.

Interviewer (30:43)

You're the consummate three year old, five year old.

Cormac (30:45)

Whatever I. You have to be. Do you not have to be that? You have to always ask yourself why. Why are you making this decision? Because somebody else is going to ask you why you've made this decision or why you've made this design decision or detailing decision or whatever it is that you've done. Somebody else is going to question it. And if you don't question yourself first, then when somebody else questions you, you're not going to know the answer. You're not going to know why you've done something. And so then I always look at it this way. Sometimes you, you put it in, into a. Just a product project specific kind of ideal here. If somebody starts to ask why you did what you've done and you can't answer why and they're looking to save money, what you think you hold sacred, like some design aspect or some overall like material or something like that. They're going to say well why did you do that? And if you don't have a good answer on why, then it's not sacred to you and it's going to be gone and then you're going to stand back there and say why didn't I fight for this man? I remember when this used to be this beautiful copper clad thing and now it's. Or, or it's like it's, it's the. Exactly. The, the exactly. It's, it's EFIS now. And you're just like man, why didn't I fight for this? And he's just like. So these are the questions you ask the why while you're doing it, while it's under construction. All of these. Like if you're not constantly asking yourself why then you're not invested in the project, the process, the outcome. Everything. Yeah. Why?

Interviewer (32:27)

I love it.

Cormac (32:28)

I love it.

Interviewer (32:29)

I love it. Well, it's been fun chat.

Cormac (32:32)

It's a good chat.

Interviewer (32:32)

I. I feel the passion.

Cormac (32:34)

I feel it. You. You have to come to work with a passion,

Interviewer (32:39)

even if it takes 10 years and grinds you down slowly.

Cormac (32:43)

But I'm just a little nub. That's all that's left. But you. But you make. You make the nicest breads with the smoothest flour.

Interviewer (32:53)

Oh. Oh, there's food for thought from Uncle Cormac right there.

Cormac (33:01)

That was some corny.