#389 - I Want To See Tears

Summary

Podcast Summary: Archispeak Episode #389 — "I Want To See Tears"

Hosts: Evan Troxel & Cormac Phalen
Date: May 1, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this engaging, candid episode, Evan and Cormac reflect on the true, often messy realities of both professional and personal projects as architects. Moving from tales of covering for absent coworkers to a detailed dive into Evan’s huge “van conversion” undertaking for his daughter-in-law, the conversation explores hands-on making, work-life balance, architectural perfectionism, and why project timelines always balloon. The hosts discuss the value (and stress) of fabrication, learning through mistakes, and seeking that unforgettable “tears of joy” reaction from clients—whether they’re family or not.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Picking Up Other People's Slack (00:00–03:20)

• Firm Culture & Accountability:

  • Cormac recounts having to finish unfinished work left by others, humorously comparing himself to movie characters like Milton from Office Space (“the grumbly guy in the basement with the red stapler”) and John McClane walking over broken glass in Die Hard.
  • A playful exchange about holding colleagues (and consultants) accountable and the false notion that the favor will be reciprocated.

• Memorable Quote:

  • "Do you remember the scene in Die Hard where John McClane is barefoot... he has to walk through all the glass—bloody feet and all? That’s where I’m at right now." — Cormac (01:09)

• Aging in Architecture:

  • Banter about accumulating wrist braces, “the agedness,” and the brutal doctor visits after 40:
    • "When you go to the doctor after 40, they're like, 'Hey, doc, my shoulder hurts.' It's like, 'Well, yeah. 'Cause you're 40.'" — Cormac (04:09)

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The Never-Ending Van Conversion Saga (05:00–22:00)

Origin of the Project

• Evan describes finally clearing out his long-cluttered shop, triggered by helping his daughter-in-law with her #VanLife Dodge Promaster camper conversion:

  • The original van was plagued with breakdowns and transmission issues. The plan: buy a newer (non-diesel) van and transfer everything over during her 3-day Christmas break (07:44).

• Epic Underestimations:

  • "She thought it was going to be easy... How many days do you think she thought that would take to do?" — Evan
  • "I'm thinking... a weekend project or something close to three days." — Cormac
  • "Three days was the answer. Let me just say this is what HGTV has done to the world: magical thinking." — Cormac (08:05–08:13)

The Reality of Hands-On Making

• Days turned to months. Christmas break saw “four days solid, 16-hour days” with little actual progress:

  • “We didn’t get as far as she thought we could get... we got way farther than I thought we were going to get in four days. But instead of sending her home with… an eighth of a way done van…” — Evan (13:44)

• Lessons in Fabrication:

  • Loving the return to hands-on work, Evan notes how few perfect right angles exist in a van—nothing fits simply, and every step is truly bespoke.
  • “Nothing is at a right angle in one of these cars... nothing is 90 degrees… what do you do when you need to make cedar siding go around a corner?” (15:18)

• Perfectionist Instincts:

  • Architects’ compulsive drive to do it “whole ass” and better each time: “If you were going to do a project again… we’re going to do it better this time, right? Like it’s got to be better.” — Evan (11:11)

Material Choices & Constraints

• Deciding on a beautiful, aromatic cedar lining—“smells amazing, looks beautiful”—meant redesigning everything from scratch (12:40).
• Evan and his daughter-in-law had to work around limitations of prior cabinetry, hardware, and the inherent non-modularity of vehicle interiors.

Emotional Aspirations

• Evan’s goal: not just a functioning van, but one that evokes real emotion.
  • “My goal is to make her cry… tears of joy, not tears of frustration.” (18:18)
  • "Like she, when she opens this van up that is just like, 'Oh my God.' Because like we are literally going to the nth degree to make things how we would want them." — Evan (18:49)

High Stakes DIY

• The pressure and terror of one-shot work:

  • "It's rather terrifying to cut giant holes in the sheet metal on the outside of a van... You only get to do that once." (19:09)

• Responsibility for expensive, critical pieces:

  • “I still have one giant hole to cut. It’s a big ass window… It’s like you have a ton of responsibility, especially when it’s not your van.” (20:04)

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Realities of Fabrication vs. Architectural Documentation (23:20–28:46)

• Discussing the ever-present risks in the workshop—“You can literally cut your fingers off just about 100 times a day”—versus the digital safety of modeling (23:22).

• Relearning tool safety, investing in push sticks and better practices after “getting way too close to the blade in previous [projects].”

• Comparing design/build approaches:

  • “You can spend a lot of time in design so that the construction part goes faster, or you can spend less time in design and solve problems during construction.” — Evan (31:27)
  • “When I did design build, you prepare drawings for approval— not for construction, because we were doing the fabrication in the building.” (31:26)

• Tension between old habits ("close enough" construction docs) and today’s exhaustive “zero clash” coordination models.

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The Endless Project and Pursuit of Perfection (28:47–35:31)

• Perfectionism and Its Consequences:

  • Both hosts reflect on the “anal retentiveness of the architect,” the inability to accept “good enough,” and how mistakes compound when building sequential parts (27:00–28:18).
  • “You cut a piece and it’s not right… those mistakes compound over time… now every other one has to be customized to the mistake you’ve already made.” — Cormac (28:18)

• Learning Through (and From) Mistakes:

  • Adapting on the fly; even with best-laid plans, sometimes “you can’t do it until you get the wrong piece up there to see.” — Evan (30:06)

• On Technology vs. Handwork:

  • 3D scanning and CNC fabrication would have been nice but impractical for a one-off, DIY family project:
    • “I didn’t want to spend four months in Rhino… This is punk. And it’s gonna, like, not only is it enriching for your soul... But again, as you said, big goal. You’re away from the computer a lot more.” — Cormac (32:46–33:16)

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Quick Hits and Tangential Riffs

• Upcoming cross-country road trip to swap vehicles with his daughter-in-law—a future adventure, and an excuse to be the first to enjoy the nearly finished van (20:52–22:09).
• The tyranny of flat, boring drives across the Plains: Wyoming, North Dakota, and the unending quest for good scenery on American road trips (22:32).

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Full Circle: Architecture’s Puzzles, Professionally and Personally

• The Joy (and Frustration) of Building:

  • “That’s what is so cool about doing a project like this… it really takes me back to design-build… The client in this case is my daughter-in-law. My goal is to make her cry. I want her to cry tears of joy.” — Evan (18:10, 18:49)

• Tools, Tolerance, and Making it Work:

  • “What you’re doing right now… the challenge for you is you’re doing mobile architecture. You’re making a tiny house.” — Cormac (35:18)
  • “Tiny house on wheels that goes 80 miles an hour down the freeway. Yeah. Fans are rocking, don’t come and knock it.” — Evan (35:31)

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Notable Quotes by Timestamps

• “Do you remember the scene in Die Hard where John McClane is barefoot... he has to walk through all the glass—bloody feet and all? That’s where I’m at right now.” — Cormac (01:09)
• “My goal is to make her cry… tears of joy, not tears of frustration.” — Evan (18:18)
• “Nothing is at a right angle in one of these cars... nothing is 90 degrees.” — Evan (15:18)
• “Let me just say this is what HGTV has done to the world: magical thinking.” — Cormac (08:13)
• “I can’t make the hole smaller later. I can only make it bigger.” — Evan (19:54)
• “You cut a piece and it’s not right… those mistakes compound over time…” — Cormac (28:18)
• “When I did design build, you prepare drawings for approval, you did not prepare drawings for construction…” — Evan (31:26)
• “The challenge for you is you’re doing mobile architecture. You’re making a tiny house.” — Cormac (35:18)
• “Tiny house on wheels that goes 80 miles an hour down the freeway. Yeah. Fans are rocking, don’t come and knock it.” — Evan (35:31)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |------------|--------------------------------------------------------| | 00:00–03:20| Office Culture & Picking Up the Slack | | 05:00–13:30| Van Project Origin, Magical Thinking vs. Reality | | 14:00–22:00| Fabrication Lessons, Perfectionism, Emotional Investment | | 23:20–28:46| Shop Risks, Safety, Documentation vs. Building | | 28:47–33:16| Compounding Mistakes, On Not Accepting "Good Enough" | | 33:16–35:31| Architecture’s Endless Puzzles, Personal Updates |

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Episode Takeaways

• Project timelines are always longer than you think—even for architects.
• Doing things “the right way” always means rethinking everything, making bespoke solutions, and learning on the fly.
• There’s a unique joy in making—not just designing—especially when the stakes and expectations (family!) are high.
• The work of architects, at root, is still about solving puzzles and aiming for that rare, genuine emotional response.

Transcript

[A]

So, Cormac, what have you been doing?

[B]

Work.

[A]

Whose work? Whose work you've been doing, Cormac?

[B]

Not my work. Somebody else's work that believed before they were ducking out on vacation that their work was done.

[A]

They believe that or they intentionally didn't do it?

[B]

No, I don't think there was. I feel they thought they were done, but they didn't. You.

[A]

You're sending them the benefit of the doubt. But you're the one I got to left to the pieces.

[B]

There's a lot of pieces.

[A]

There's a lot of pieces. Many pieces, he says as he grumbles and pushes this, the. The push broom across the floor. Many pieces. Remember, do you remember, like, remind. Reminds me of the guy in the basement with the red stapler. Stapler.

[B]

No, do you. Do you remember the scene in one of the best Christmas movies, even though they claim that it' not a Christmas movie?

[A]

I'm sure they do now.

[B]

No, they still. They still argue that it's not a Christmas movie. Okay, before.

[A]

I know you're talking about Die Hard. You're talking about Die Hard.

[B]

Okay, so remember, Remember the scene in Die hard where John McClane is barefoot and so they just. Exactly, you know, where I'm going. So then they decide to shoot up all of the glass and all that other stuff and. And he has to like walk through all the glass. Bloody feet and all that other stuff. That's where I'm at right now.

[A]

You're also going to be the grumbly guy in the basement from Office Space.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

In the little cubicle.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Milton owning the stapler. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, man.

[A]

Well, yeah, I'm sure you'll get a big bonus at the end of the year for all this extra work that you're doing. And it'll be actually paid directly by the people. People who. The other company who didn't meet the deadlining do the work. You're doing it for them on their behalf as a good steward. And it's going to go into the, the. The Good Guy column.

[B]

You say that as if it's not. You say that as if it's not us.

[A]

I, I don't know who it is. I thought it was a. I thought it was a third party consultant. Oh, even worse.

[B]

Cuss.

[A]

At least you have some say when they come back and you're. Hey, what about that thing you didn't do?

[B]

You remember that thing that you. That we were supposed to have been done with but wasn't quite done. But what do you do in a case like that?

[A]

Though you hold them accountable to it somehow. Well, you got it.

[B]

Yes, of course. I, I, I, I understand what you're saying there.

[A]

But you get time off when they come back. That's what happened. I think that maybe. Is that how it works?

[B]

Is that how it works? I don't recall.

[A]

And they get to do your job at that point. Right. Because you did their job. Sweet. Yes.

[B]

No. You have more punching to do next week, do you?

[A]

We have so many episodes about punching buildings at this point.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I can't believe you're up to wear legal. You've got, yeah. Look at you. It's like you're a, a punching in training. A puncher in training with your.

[B]

I have these, like it's, it's a, a, a menu of braces like which, all the braces. Do you want the hard plastic brace, do you want the soft glovey brace? Or do you want. I have a third, although I can't show it to you because it's on the other side of the room, which is the brace that immobilizes your wrist.

[A]

It's called the agedness. You have.

[B]

Is called the agedness that I have.

[A]

I'm sorry, sir. You contracted the agedness.

[B]

There was a comedian that basically had a skit that said something to the effect of when you go to the doctor after 40, they're like, hey, doc, my shoulder hurts. It's like, well, yeah. Cause you're 40. Like, well, what are we going to do about it? Nothing.

[A]

Right. We're going to let you, we're going to let you slowly deteriorate until. Yeah. You're gone.

[B]

Exactly. This is just part of, part of the fact that you are going to be, you're just old, old and, and desk ridden.

[A]

Like you've, you've, you've chosen this life. You've chosen to just so. Okay. So I mean that. This is a good segue. Look at that.

[B]

There we go.

[A]

I've been doing some fun stuff in my shop. I finally got my shop. I got, I got a car out of the shop which gave me space to use the shop. Excellent for some, for some projects where I'm physically using my hands. Physically using my brain, even in hand and brain. Do a fun project.

[B]

Well, you're doing hand and brain.

[A]

Yeah, hand and brain.

[B]

I'm assuming you're not chewing gum at the same time, though.

[A]

Nope. No way.

[B]

Okay. Didn't want to burn you out.

[A]

Yeah. I thought it'd be fun to talk about something different because, because we're tired of all your Your project work anniversaries over here on this side, people have been rolling their eyes.

[B]

They're like, yeah, yeah, whatever. We all live through it, right? Let's hear something good. Tell miss Home thing. Good.

[A]

Nice. Yeah. So, so this started, this all started over Christmas. Where are we now? We're in the middle of April. Oh my gosh. Okay, so, okay, here's. Here's the ironic start of this project.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So I guess I need to give a little bit of background. So, okay, my shop, I have this separate building on my property that was always intended to be a shop. It was actually one of the things I really wanted to have when I moved from Southern California was a property with a shop. And that shop immediately turned into long term storage because I've been here for three years now and it's been entirely full of crap. And so then finally a project revealed itself or made itself available to change that situation. So my daughter in law has a Dodge Promaster like a delivery van that she turned into a camper van, like a van life, Hashtag vanlife campervan. And this van life camper van has been nothing but problems for her. And I think there's various reasons why she bought it used it was a diesel, which are both fine except that this particular model of Dodge Promaster camper van also has lots of issues, transmission problems especially, and has left her stranded many a times after dumping tons of money into it. So she decided, I think it must have been like last November ish, that she was gonna buy a new van, like the same van but the new model and not a diesel with all the problems and then take all the stuff in her existing camper van and just move it over to the new. Yeah, just do the switcheroo. Right. And just scrap.

[B]

Because that sounds easy.

[A]

It is easy, right? I mean that. I guess we should have put air quotes around that. But it was one of those things where she thought it was going to be easy. And how many days do you think she thought that that would take to do?

[B]

And I'm thinking that was either a weekend project or something close to three days.

[A]

Three days was the answer.

[B]

Let me just say that this is what HGTV has done to the world.

[A]

Magical thinking. Yes, exactly. How long did it take her to do the first van? Untold, untold numbers of days. But to switch it all out into the new van, three days. Now I, we, my wife and I offered to host her to come out. She drove the new van out here, which she bought on the east coast where you're on the West Coast. She drove it out here. The old van was already here. Complete other saga involved. To get that old van here because it's in limp mode and it left her stranded in Salt Lake City. As she was driving it to the east coast, my wife and I went out. The short version is we went out, we drove out with a truck and trailer, picked it up and drove it back here.

[B]

I was going to say in a marathon. Did it get back to your place on its own steam or somebody else's?

[A]

Yeah, no, it was on the back of my buddy's big flatbed trailer that we hauled out there. And let me tell you, that's not a fun drive to go from Oregon to Salt Lake City across nothing for 16 hours of driving. It's terrible. But we did it and, and we brought that van here. So it was waiting for her and then she thought, okay, I'm going to come out over Christmas break. She had a week off and we're just gonna slam this out and she was gonna drive back to the east coast in a brand new camper van.

[B]

I mean, that sounds legit.

[A]

I mean it sounds totally doable, right?

[B]

Let me tell me the reasons why you couldn't get it done in three days.

[A]

There you go. Hear your sad story. All of this just preamble to say, like, oh, it's actually fun to be working out in the shop and not sitting at a computer all the time. Right? Which I think some of the audience would appreciate. I think that we've got some tinkerers, some makers, some people who at least long to be building things and making things. Because I mean, there is an aspect of that to what we do in the profession, right? Like most of the time we're doing it in, I guess it used to be physical models and, and then 3D models and sometimes some kind of mock ups and maybe some prototyping, 3D printing, maybe some laser cutting. I don't know, like, there's all kinds of ways in which we start to put things together, but I haven't done any kind of like remodeling projects here for a while. And so this was just one of those things where it's like, oh, I really do have the tools, I really can help her do it and she can be involved in that process and see that it's going to take a hell of a lot longer than three days to do this thing because. And now this is where I created some of my own problems here which were like, wouldn't you want to do it a little differently if you did it again. Like if you were going to do a project again. Okay, this is where architects are, right? We're going to do it better this time. Right? Like it's got to be better this time.

[B]

There was the half or the whole ass. You in? Whole.

[A]

I like to go whole ass over here. Yes, for sure. And, and what's interesting about, about that is just how many things that changes, right. If by this is the, the opening, the can of worms or the, the trickle down effect, however you want to kind of frame it. But it's like, okay, before she had these panels kind of inset into the structural ribs of the van in with. With. Because this van is just metal. I mean it's just a metal shell. And you literally have to do everything. You have to build the floor up from nothing with insulation. You've got to insulate the walls, you've got to insulate inside the pillars, even in the walls, or else you're going to get some major thermal transfer.

[B]

And did you use like the sound deadening wrap she did on the old van?

[A]

She decided not to on this van because she actually said it didn't help. It didn't help?

[B]

No, no. You put it together with all of the other stuff.

[A]

Yeah, well, you've got to do it all right. And it's a big expense. So there was, there was that involved as well. I mean she just basically bought a whole new van. So that, and it's just going to scrap the old one. So it's a huge loss. I mean the, the. I, I was surprised that she even wanted to do this project at all. But, but she really wants to have this thing.

[B]

So.

[A]

Yeah, I mean we spent all of Christmas, which was four days solid, like 16 hour days working on this van. Completely changed kind of the design though, with this interior. We went with the full cedar lining inside, which is very nice, smells amazing, looks beautiful and it just makes everything different about the project. Right. So you can't take the stuff out of the old van and just put it in the new van when you're building a completely different interior lining. So anyway, at some point it was like there's no way, you know, we're working our asses off. It's 20 degrees outside over that time period and raining right while we're doing it. And so hilarity ensues. And we didn't get as far as she thought we could get, which I was. We got way farther than I thought we were going to get in four days. But Instead of sending her home with a half. Not even halfway done van. An eighth of a way done van.

[B]

Wait three days.

[A]

Four days.

[B]

So four days. You started in December.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

It is April.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It's not done.

[A]

Nope. Not yet. But not.

[B]

I believe you're.

[A]

Matt.

[B]

What I'm getting at. What I'm getting at is your math's wrong. You didn't get an eighth of the way through in four days. If you are four months into it.

[A]

Well. Well, four months into it has been me ignoring that project. Right. Because she's part of it here. She's not here to. To help anymore either. Right. So it's. When can I find time to work on this project? And how much is that legitimately? How much time can I actually put into it outside of actual work getting done too, and the property and springtime and 2 foot tall grass growing and having. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Like just the things.

[B]

Let's not forget your annual adventures of poison oak.

[A]

Yep, exactly. So, yeah. So here we are in middle of April and trying to spend at least one day a week on this van, which is hard, still difficult, and still making changes. And like, oh, my gosh. Anyway, it's. It's been a. It's been an ordeal. But it also has been really great to not be sitting at a computer.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

And just making stuff and actually getting my shop more in order than it's ever been before. And a buddy of mine actually donated a ton of shelving to me, so I put together a bunch of racks and actually get stuff up off the floor. And that helped a ton. So it's just been one of those things where progress is being made and it's getting to justify the owning of these tools and actually use them and find new ways of doing things. I mean, one of the things that's really interesting about, like, fabrication. Right. Because that's what basically what the stage is that we're at is we're. Nothing is at a right angle in one of these cars, Right. In a van, nothing is at a right angle. Nothing is 90 degrees. I mean, some things barely, but barely. And so what do you do when you need to make cedar siding? Go around a corner.

[B]

And I am totally surprised that you did not 3D scan this. This, and then CNC the wood into the proper shape.

[A]

I would have had to have had a lot of very expensive equipment to do that. I mean, you know, it would have been really cool.

[B]

Oh, so. So now we're down to quarter ass.

[A]

Yeah. No, that would be that, yeah, that would be whole assing for sure if you were doing that. And, and she, she actually contracted with the shop up in Eugene when she was going to school there to do the cabinetry for the van. This guy specializes in doing these kinds of conversions, but he, he did it for sprinter vans, I think exclusively, maybe Ford, but not Dodge. And so he worked with her to develop his system that would work in the Dodge one for, for like a discounted rate. So I don't have to build, I don't have to build cabinets and stuff. But I mean that.

[B]

But you have. Because you, you would have to build the shell. Like all of your fittings need to then conform to his cabinetry.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

So it's almost like instead of you like you building and then him coming out and measuring like we would do in architecture, it's the other way around is like, here's the system that he's going to be putting in. You've got to kind of build to that.

[A]

I have to make sure that the stuff that he has put, that he had put in the old van will actually even fit in the new van because we're changing the way that his stuff will interface with. Right, yeah, yeah, exactly.

[B]

That sounds crazy, but actually somewhat rewarding too because I mean, think about this. I mean not only are you doing that and I mean that, that's when your brain cells like really get pumping. When you gotta kind of like figure that out.

[A]

This is a puzzle. It literally is like a 4D puzzle. And I think that's what is so cool about doing a project like this is it really takes me back to design, build. Right. Which was fabrication. It's like design and fabrication and installation and event. There's like this, this. The client in this case is my daughter in law. My goal is to make her cry. Like that's my goal. I want her to cry tears of joy, not tears of frustration. I don't, I don't want her to regret this. So. Yeah, yeah, don't take it, man.

[B]

I want her to cry.

[A]

I told my, my wife the other day, like my goal is to make her cry. Like, like she, when she opens this van up that is just like, oh my God. Because like we are literally going to the nth degree to make things how we would want them. And like this isn't. I'm not cutting corners because I'm some.

[B]

There's no 90 degrees.

[A]

There's no, there's no. Literally every corner has to be cut because 90 degrees with, with a bandsaw or a Jigsaw because. Yeah. Nothing together perfectly. But yeah, I mean that, that's a complicated part of this puzzle really is, is all of the rounded edges and all of the complex curves and making things. And it's rather terrifying to cut giant holes in the sheet metal on the outside of a van. Like you only get to do that once, right as you're cutting. Like, I've got a cutting wheel and I'm cutting and sparks are flying and you're like, please, like I've measured this.

[B]

Please be right.

[A]

And you still have doubts that it's going to be right.

[B]

Please be right. Please be right. Please be right. Please be right.

[A]

I can't make the hole smaller later. I can only make it bigger. Right.

[B]

It's like when you go, when you go to the get a haircut, it's just like, I can take hair off, but I can't put it back on.

[A]

At least it'll grow back. I mean, that's the, the saving grace there. There's not that option when you're cutting holes in the side of a van. And I still have one giant hole to cut. It's a big ass window. It's like 24 by 42. It's this thousand dollar window that she bought and put in the old van. And it's like you have a ton of responsibility, especially when it's not your van.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To do it.

[B]

Right. So the old van was junk, but had really nice stuff on it. Now you have a really nice van that you're moving all of those really nice parts to.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. It's gonna be. When it's all done. It's gonna be amazing.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

It's super cool. Like actually that one of the, one of the nice things is my wife and I are going to drive to meet her somewhere in the middle of the US probably like eastern Colorado. So we have like a road trip coming up where we're going to swap cars back. Because my solution was, well, your van's nowhere near done and if she would have taken it, it would not have gotten finished. Like she's got a full time job. She doesn't have any of the tools. She doesn't have a garage. She doesn't have any, any like real means to make this project happen. So I like, I had this epiphany one day like Christmas morning or whatever, and it was like, you take our Subaru back to the east coast and we'll keep the van and finish the van and then at some point we'll meet up and Swap back. And so we get to use the van for the. As the first users of it.

[B]

When it's you, you know where that swap has got to occur. Glacier.

[A]

Tell me. Well, I, I, we're not. She's in Georgia. I wish. That's a little out of the way.

[B]

Hey, she's in Georgia now.

[A]

She's in Georgia now. Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. So driving to eastern Colorado is about as far as I think I'm willing to go. So, I mean, after that, the drive. Boring.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

I'll let her do that part.

[B]

I did that one with kid one. And once you got out of the mountains of Colorado and you hit that eastern and it just went flat y. And then it's just like, yeah, this is what I've got for. Basically, until you got to the Appalachians, it was flat. Yeah, just flat.

[A]

Yeah. Some of those states have, like, rolling hills and greenery, but some of them don't. Like Wyoming, actually, before Colorado is brutally boring. So I drove out through Wyoming to go get the van. Right. So to pick up the, the broken van.

[B]

So I'm glad you're saying this to me because I also have that southern trip, that summer trip coming up with the.

[A]

But you're gonna go up north, right? You're gonna go up north on the way back.

[B]

Yeah, but like, how I, I'm, I still, there's still some states that are going to be flat once I get past.

[A]

Like, you're gonna go through, like, are you going through North Dakota or what?

[B]

Yeah, they want to hit the Dakotas.

[A]

You've got some flat time ahead of you.

[B]

That's got some flat time.

[A]

You got some flat time.

[B]

You could be like, great.

[A]

So one of the things so forward to that, that is different about working in a shop than working on a computer is like, you can literally cut your fingers off just about 100 times a day, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Table saw, bandsaw, jigsaw, chop saw. All the saws, circular saws. Yeah, there's lots of saws. Oh, cutting wheels. Cutting wheels. Cutting through metal. Yeah, I think that's probably. It's like just, oh, I'm gonna bone up on YouTube, watching table saw safety videos a little bit here and scare myself enough to actually pay attention and buy the right tools to make sure I don't get close to the blade. I've definitely gotten way too close to the blade in previous. It's like, oh, yeah, I can justify this. It's just one cut. I'm not willing to do that anymore.

[B]

Yeah, it's. It's funny. It's like when you're on like the, the jigsaw or the bandsaw and you're like spinning it around and everything else and you're, and it's just like your fingers are this like you even feel like the side of the, the band, the bandsaw, like as you're like zipping through there and all that other stuff. And nowadays it's like, how far away can I actually get from that blade?

[A]

Right.

[B]

And still do the cuts that I need to cut.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Because, because, yeah, I, I, I, I hear you. It's just like I've like investing in

[A]

like push sticks and all kinds of things now to. Or, or the, we're near that.

[B]

That or the auto cut off blades.

[A]

I can't afford the saw stop. Yeah, the one that when the hot dog touches the blade, it automatically stops. Yeah, I can't afford that. That saw.

[B]

So now you're down to like 16th past, Which is about as close as you are to being done with this thing.

[A]

I know. And it's like every little thing, you're just like, you can't actually. So, so this is something I think, that's different from drawing stuff. Right. As an architect, you draw stuff and at some level you're at least it used to be even more like this. Right. It's like you're, oh, I'm going to rely on the mechanical or the H H Vac subcontractor to actually figure that out because that's their job right now. Now we have to have Zero Clash models and all this BS right? Where it's like you have like, it has to be all figured out ahead of time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So we've, we've made projects more complex. I mean, how many times before was an H Vac drawing an RCP with single line diagrams of layouts for duct runs?

[B]

Right, Exactly.

[A]

That's what it used to be. So now not.

[B]

He gets what you are.

[A]

I actually, no, I actually have to figure the whole freaking thing out.

[B]

Like you are officially.

[A]

I can't kick this. Yeah, I am.

[B]

By others.

[A]

I am a refer. I am referred to installer or structure.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

So the, the thing is, it's like you can't kick the can down the road or just depend on somebody else to solve that problem. It's like you literally have to do the whole thing. And so it's amazing how much how many brain cycles go into solving all of these little issues and how long that actually takes because I don't do this every day.

[B]

Right, right. And, and you're going to like it would take you. Let's. Let's just say it would take somebody who's doing this and reasonably competent. And I'm not saying you're not, because I know you are. But they would say. Okay. I said are confident, not are not. Okay.

[A]

I was reading between the lines.

[B]

Yeah. No, no, no, no. Where the. The line said is like, where somebody would do this, and they'd be like, okay, this is good enough. You don't have that. You don't have that. Okay, this is good enough. No, no. You're like, I've got to figure all of this out. It's got to be perfect. I got to do this. And it's. And so you're. You're ensuring that everything's right. You've got the anal retentiveness of the architect that you are.

[A]

I'm offended again that you use those descriptors on me.

[B]

It's true. It's true that I do.

[A]

And I want to make my wife right. My wife doesn't listen to this podcast, but she's even worse. And it's her daughter's van, so it's got to be even more perfect. And she's like, of German descent, so the precision comes out when she's. Why isn't this perfect? This can be a 32nd of an inch better. Right. Like, she's at that level. But yeah, it's like you cut a piece and it's not right. Guess what? Like, you're not gonna make it work. You're gonna do it again. And you have to. Because if you start doing that, those mistakes compound over time. Because. Yeah, you only are in this very limit.

[B]

Yeah. Because now. Because now, like, instead of you cutting it right, and then the next one will be right. The next one will be right. It's. You cut that one that's not quite right. And then every other one has to be customized to the mistake you've already made.

[A]

And I can't even tell you how many times I've assumed that these two things. I can cut them at the same time. Because they're the same. Yes. And. And then you put them up in place and it's like, oh, I didn't think of that.

[B]

And exactly.

[A]

Now I have to get creative about how I'm going to use this piece somewhere else because I just cut it too short for this application.

[B]

Yeah. Like, can I use otherwise?

[A]

Waste. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Real quickly. Did I. Did I have a dimension? On the last episode, when we were. I was talking about the glass Factory visit that they were talking about. So your wife would absolutely love this. They were talking about the precision that they can get is up to a half a millimeter.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, contractors will never get that close. I mean, we're talking about real world installation conditions where

[B]

we. We had a eighth inch and quarter inch joint depending on where like these glass that. This glass that we were using would go based off of like the frame and everything else. And they couldn't keep them straight because it's just like, that's just too, too tight of a tolerance for this finished material and stuff. So that's. That's kind of what you're saying is like you got a. Make sure it's all like thought through.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of times you can't do that until you get the wrong piece up there to see.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, that's the re. That's my reality. At least I'm sure there's better ways to do it. But yeah, like, it's interesting because I didn't 3D scan this. I would have. That would have been cool. But then I would have spent a ton of time in the computer to figure stuff out and then translating that back to.

[B]

In this.

[A]

Actual cuts of actual pieces and then having to maybe produce drawings to do that. Or at least having the laptop and measuring off the model. Like that comes with its own set of issues. Right. And trade offs. Well, I mean, versus doing it in person.

[B]

Exactly. It comes with the, okay, four month or four year project.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like, how much more time are you gonna spend on just trying to figure things out, make sure it's right? All the other stuff. I mean, I will say that sometimes the beauty of working with. With lumber is you can, you can measure as many times as you want. You can cut it, you can fit it. It doesn't quite fit you. Like, you shave a little bit off, make it, oops, I cut it a little too much. Maybe I could shim it so it's just like I can make it work.

[A]

Wood filler, caulk, all those. All the good stuff.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

I think one of the. I mean, you can spend a lot of time in design so that the construction part goes faster, or you can spend less time in design and solve problems during construction. Which is why it reminds me of the design build days. Because when I did design build, you prepare drawings for approval, you did not prepare drawings for construction because we were doing the fabrication in the building. Yeah. And so we knew that we were going to be Drawing these things in more detail when we needed to, not ahead of time.

[B]

The drawings were close enough.

[A]

Yeah, they're. They're good enough to get an approval. Right. Like, that's. That's the point. Like, especially when you want to move fast.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You can't spend four years getting into all those details and all that stuff. When you figure it out, we'll figure this out later. That's a. That's a later problem.

[B]

And.

[A]

And so that's what this is. But even at another level, which is like, in real time, you're holding the piece up or you've got the tape measure or. And you're trying to figure out the angles, like by. By actually working in the space. Because even if I could have laser scanned it, I mean, there's a lot of laser scanners that are super precise. But what's available and can I get it? And what do I. What am I want to buy and what do I actually want to learn how to use? Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because there's a whole learning curve that comes with that stuff. Yeah. You've watched hire a consultant, hire a real professional to do it. That would have been awesome too. But I didn't want to spend four months in Rhino.

[B]

This is designing all these pieces. Diy. This is punk. This is. And. And it's gonna, like. Not only is it enriching for your soul to just, like, get back to creating something with your hands, but again, as you said, big goal. You're away from the computer a lot more.

[A]

I'm away from the desk. I'm away from the. Away from the low light basement.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Getting. Getting out in the. In the elements. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Vampire. Anyway. Yeah. I mean, we're probably an eighth of a way done now.

[B]

Eighth of a way.

[A]

Yep. Maybe more. I don't know. I mean, I don't have to build any cabinets.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

It's not fun running lots of wiring through channels and cavities and all that kind of stuff that are sharp metal edges and things like that. And anyway, we'll get there. We'll get there.

[B]

Yeah. Speaking of which, I've got to figure out how to put card readers into some all glass wireless.

[A]

Not. Not really secure then, is it?

[B]

I mean, they. They have. They have wireless.

[A]

I know. I'm sure they do. You gotta have some serious security and encryption going when you do that. I'm sure.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. But. But yeah. And it's all because they're like this and nothing's fit for. It's not electric hardware fit. It's because we weren't doing it, and now we are.

[A]

Yeah. I was gonna say. What?

[B]

Changed minds?

[A]

Things. Things changed later.

[B]

Look, I get it.

[A]

You'll figure something out. But it might. It's not gonna be the most elegant.

[B]

Exactly. Use types changed and all that other stuff. And I get it. It's just. It's one of those things that now it's just an interesting puzzle to solve. It's like, okay, how do you do this with something that's already installed without having to uninstall things or rip things out and all that other stuff? So it'll be a fun challenge. Yeah, Fun, fun challenge.

[A]

The life of an architect. That's a fun challenge.

[B]

That's true. I mean, it's kind of a thing that you're doing right now. Right. Is like the challenge for you is you're doing mobile architecture. You make sure you're making a tiny house. Yep.

[A]

Tiny house on wheels that goes 80 miles an hour down the freeway. Yeah. Fans are rocking. Don't come and knock it.