OUT OF UNIVERSE - A Conversation With Ella Watts

Summary

Archive 81: OUT OF UNIVERSE – A Conversation with Ella Watts

Podcast: Archive 81
Host: Dead Signals
Guest: Ella Watts (audio fiction consultant, BBC, and The Orphans)
Release Date: May 29, 2019
Episode Focus: Audio drama process, worldbuilding, inspiration, favorite characters, and reflections on Archive 81’s evolving narrative

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Episode Overview

In this out-of-universe bonus episode, Mark (co-creator/writer of Archive 81) sits down with audio fiction specialist and superfan, Ella Watts. The conversation dives deeply into the creative complexities of writing and producing an audio drama, focusing on topics such as the joy and pain of writing, unique challenges of crafting unreal worlds in audio, the evolving tone and structure of Archive 81, and the uncanny power of sound in storytelling. The discussion is candid, humorous, and often self-deprecating, offering rare behind-the-scenes insights both into the podcast itself and the wider audio fiction medium.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Writing Process: Pain, Relief, and Sound

• (01:38) Mark likens writing to the show’s own horror—painful, compulsive, and ultimately a relief when finished rather than a joy:
  • “It's not so much that I enjoy writing it, it's that I like—it's a relief to get it done.” (Mark, 02:28)
• The real pleasure comes from hearing performances and sound design (music, actors’ interpretations), not necessarily the act of writing itself.

Expressing the Ineffable through Sound

• (04:00) Mark emphasizes audio drama’s ability to convey things that can't be put into words, often resorting to unleashing sound and music instead of dialogue:
  • “The dialogue is not as important, not nearly as important as the sounds themselves. It's a sonic medium.”
  • References moments (e.g., Season 3, Ep 6) when emotional expression is achieved through “weird whale/dolphin sounds” rather than speech.

Embracing Inspiration & Overcoming Blocks

• (07:49) On finding inspiration: Mark recommends cultivating boredom—shutting off distractions and letting the mind wander. He references Cal Newport’s work on the importance of undistracted thinking:
  • “The best ideas come when you are bored. ... You need to let yourself be bored.” (Mark, 09:57)
• Ella offers a pragmatic tip for capturing shower inspiration—write it on shower walls with crayons.

Crafting Unreal Worlds in Audio

• (11:21) Mark’s guiding philosophy: Let the audience do the imaginative heavy lifting and let sound design carry worldbuilding:
  • “One of the reasons that audio fiction is so, so, so good at creating unreal worlds is that it gives the audience just a little bit of information and then they take it from there … let your sound do the work for you.”
  • Writing in audio drama should “serve the sound design”; the medium belongs to sound designers, not writers.

Esoteric Forces, Magic, and Communicating the Impossible

• (14:10) Each season of Archive 81 explores esotericism in different ways (season 1 = archive tape, season 2 = Dreamlands, season 3 = magic rituals), always focusing on evoking what TV/film can’t.

Season & Miniseries Favorites

• (16:27) Ella’s order: Season 3 > Golden Age > Season 2 > Season 1 (but stresses their interdependence, like instruments in an orchestra).
• (19:25) Mark’s: Golden Age > Season 3 > Season 1 > Season 2. Both agree Golden Age is a great entry point to the show.

Evolving Tone and Structure

• (20:49) Seasons are deliberately different because Mark and Dan get bored easily. There's no pre-planned show arc: they chase new creative challenges each time.
  • “None of this is planned out. ... every season we try and move further and further away from us acting.” (Mark, 22:59)
• Purpose of change: To keep themselves interested and to fully explore audio fiction’s potential.

On Left of the Dial (Miniseries) and Road Trip Format

• Banjo music, Americana, and strange radio signals inspire Left of the Dial, emphasizing the uncanny feeling of tuning through mysterious transmissions while driving (25:12).

Favorite & Most Fun Characters

• Sponsorbot is the easiest and most fun—“you write some weird shit about this robot that hates humans, and it's funny, and it takes like, 20 minutes, and everybody loves it.” (Mark, 27:03)
• Static Man: a quirky, specific character whose Syracuse-college-student vibes make him particularly fun and earthy to write.

Characters Ella Wants More Of

• Ella wants more of Christine and the “crew of the Irons”—seen as some of the show’s only genuinely kind characters (29:24).

Balancing Mystery and Fan Demand

• Mark intentionally leaves much of the world vague and unexplained:
  • “All that stuff is purposefully left extremely vague ... Nobody knows shit. Even I try and keep everything slightly mysterious.” (Mark, 37:28)
• He defends the practice of letting the audience fill in gaps, comparing it to why the Star Wars prequels lose magic by over-explaining.

Writing Deeply Flawed Characters

• Characters like Static Man, Nicholas, and others are “not decent human beings”—most audience favorites should probably be in prison!
• Mark finds himself forgiving his creations because “they're mine,” while Ella observes audience’s willingness to forgive reflects our own hopes for redemption (54:37).

Exploration of Loneliness & Forgiveness

• Static Man is “really lonely,” and both hosts dive into how trauma and alienation drive the series’ characters to desperation and magic.
• Christine, named after Mark's mum, is one of few genuinely moral characters, albeit with flaws (54:57).

Reflections on Reader Interpretation and Character Identification

• Mark is aware that much of himself is poured into Nicholas, Static Man, and other characters—leading to the sometimes-unsettling experience of seeing fans react to versions of himself and friends in the stories (57:16).
• “The strangest things about doing Archive 81... is seeing the characters that are sort of based on us ... having people react to characters that are kind of facets of my personality. ... It is a strange emotional experience, to put it mildly.” (Mark, 59:00)

Closing Thoughts

• Ella expresses trust in the creative team to introduce compelling new characters, regardless of past attachments (36:44).
• Mark reiterates the mystery is intentional: “The point of Archive 81 is not to find answers.”
• Teasers and hints are dropped about upcoming plot points but always remain “super fucking vague, but still intriguing.” (Mark, 45:47)

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On Writing Pain:

  • “It's not so much that I enjoy writing it, it's that ... it's a relief ... it finally subsided, or, oh, I picked at the scab, it's gone.” (Mark, 02:16)

• On Audio Drama’s Core:

  • “The dialogue is not as important, not nearly as important as the sounds themselves. ... Audio drama is a sound designer's medium. The writing should serve the sound design.” (Mark, 05:08, 13:00)

• On Creativity & Boredom:

  • “The best ideas come when you are bored ... you need to let yourself be bored.” (Mark, 09:57)

• Fan Service vs. Imagination:

  • “Let your sound do the work for you. ... It's giving the audience space to let their imagination wander.” (Mark, 12:18)

• On Season Diversity:

  • “[We] get bored way too easily. ... None of this is planned out. ... doing something new and weird every time gives us a wider breadth.” (Mark, 20:49, 22:59)

• On Leaving Mysteries Unanswered:

  • “... giving concrete answers to magic is ... takes the mystery and magic out of it. ... The main one is: you don’t get something from nothing.” (Mark, 38:05)

• On Character Forgiveness:

  • “I see why I forgive them because I've written, they're mine ... it's very gratifying that you also forgive them, even though you probably shouldn't.” (Mark, 54:37)

• On Sound and Intrigue as Tagline:

  • “That's the whole point of Archive 81: Super fucking vague, but still intriguing.” (Mark, 45:47)

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Episode Timeline

| Timestamp | Topic / Segment | |------------|----------------------------------------------------| | 00:00–01:33 | Introductions, apology for episode delay | | 01:33–03:20 | Why Mark writes audio drama | | 03:20–05:49 | Sound over dialogue; expressing impossibility | | 05:49–10:49 | Inspiration and the necessity of boredom | | 10:49–14:10 | Crafting unreal worlds through minimal writing & sound | 14:10–16:27 | On magic/esoteric forces and their sonic portrayal | | 16:27–20:49 | Favorite seasons; how Golden Age fits the series | | 20:49–26:48 | Evolving format and tone each season; Left of the Dial inspiration | 26:48–29:14 | Favorite and most fun characters to write | | 29:14–35:23 | Wanting more time with specific side characters; fearing over-explanation | 35:23–39:49 | The deliberate mystery and vagueness of the show's world | 39:49–43:33 | Story structure: not about concrete answers, but world and feeling | 43:33–46:30 | Leaving plot points open for future return | | 46:30–54:57 | The psychology and loneliness of characters | | 54:57–57:16 | Nicholas, Christine — moral complexity and relation to real people | 57:16–61:45 | Reflections on reading into the work; closings |

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Memorable Moments

• Mark playfully calls out Harry Potter magic tropes with “Yep. Fuck Harry Potter.” (14:35)
• The tongue-in-cheek summary of Archive 81: “Super fucking vague, but still intriguing.” (45:47)
• Deep commentary on audience-complicity in character forgiveness: “You like the idea that people would forgive you on a different scale with a more grounded reality.” (Ella, 51:00)
• Mark confesses to inserting much of himself into Nicholas and describes the surreal oddity of having fans psychoanalyze a fictionalized version of himself and his friends. (57:16, 59:00)

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Closing Thoughts

This episode delivers a rare glimpse into the creative minds behind Archive 81, their philosophies on audio as a storytelling medium, and an engaging meta-dialogue with one of its most invested listeners. Equal parts craft talk, creative therapy session, and fandom Q&A, it’s essential listening for anyone curious about the magic (and mystery) behind great audio fiction.

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Find Ella Watts:

• Podcast: The Orphans
• Twitter: @EJWatts

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“You need to let yourself be bored. That’s like always my main advice when anybody wants to write. And that’s like my one piece of good advice.”
— Mark, 09:57

Transcript

[A]

Hello, this is Mark. Not the character Mark, the actual person. The person who writes this show. And once again, we are very, very, very sorry that we couldn't get you an episode in time, but hopefully this will take some of the pain out of it. I am here talking with Ella Watts, who is this amazing, amazing audio drama person, and we're just going to have a cool little discussion about audio drama and about the writing process, and hopefully that will tide over your little hearts until next week when we have an actual episode and we have an actual reason for you to listen to the show that you subscribe to. Anyway, Ella, introduce yourself.

[B]

Hell, yeah. Hello. So I am an audio drama person. I feel like you also forgot the most important part, which is that I am a Super fan of Archive 81, but I am a podcast consultant. I specialize in the audio fiction industry. I work with the BBC. I also work on a couple podcasts of my own, including a sci fi podcast called the Orphans, which you should.

[A]

Definitely take out, check out, or not take out, but take out for dinner. Who knows? Maybe something will spark. But also check it out on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, so without further ado, let's get this convo started.

[B]

All right, so first question. What do you like about writing audio drama?

[A]

So that's a tough question, because when I'm in the process, it's spoiler alert for episode two. There's this preacher who in the script, he's called the skinless Preacher. And the reason he's horrifying is that he picks at his scabs, essentially. So he picks at them and then picks at them, and eventually he's skinless. And essentially, that's kind of the process of writing. It never feels good when I'm doing it. It always feels. The emotion I always feel after writing something or getting something done is relief rather than happiness. Like, it's, oh, this, it finally subsided, or, oh, I picked at the scab. It's gone. And it's so. It's. It's not so much that I enjoy writing it, it's that I like. It's a relief to get it done. And that sounds a little bit more despairing and sad than I intended. But honestly, the part that I really enjoy about Audio Drum is hearing it is hearing the stuff that I and Dan came up with in sound and hearing what the weird music and the. What the actors do with it. That's a very roundabout way to answer your question, Ella.

[B]

No, I see it. And I think that there's something kind of lovely about it. Like, yeah, it sounds painful, but I feel like every writer I've ever heard speak about their writing says that writing is painful and chasing a way to express the ineffable, which I think is something that Archive 81 especially circles around and around. It's like chasing that high, chasing that epiphany, trying to find that relief. I think that makes a lot of sense and leads nicely into my next question. So you obviously express a lot of impossible concepts and impossible worlds in your writing. What's the most difficult thing you've had to put into words?

[A]

To put into words. So for the most part, the most difficult concepts aren't put into words, they're put into sounds. So there's a reason that, honestly, sometimes it's easier to think of Archive 81 as a musical because whenever the emotions get too heightened and there are things that the characters can't express, usually what we do is we have some sort of sound express them instead. And this kind of goes to my general thoughts about writing for sound, which is that, like, the dialogue is not as important, not nearly as important as the sounds themselves. It's a sonic medium. So essentially, like, when you think about, like, season three, episode six, when Lou and Christine are talking to each other and there's definitely something going on, you definitely want those characters to kiss or, you know, do whatever. I've read the erotic fanfic. I know what you want them to do. The thing that happens is you hear these weird whale sounds, whale dolphin sounds, and they're, like, strangely beautiful. And to use your $5 word, ineffable. So it almost. It transcends words. And that's something that Dan and I are both really interested in exploring, that.

[B]

Definitely comes across and I guess it changes a little. My next question, because I was going to ask what you've had the most fun writing, but I suppose a better question would be, what's been the most fun to create?

[A]

So I think the most fun is always. It's when I get to write something unexpected. It's always when I get to surprise myself with an idea that I just think, oh, man, why didn't. Okay, that's weird. That's cool. Let's do it. So it's usually when I think of something that. Because Dan and I outline the seasons together, but it's never outlined too much. So, for example, season three, Episode six, not to keep going back on it, that was not something that we had originally planned from season two at all. Like, logically, it probably should have been, but. But it's something that we. That I was just like, oh, this would be cool. And it turned out it was. You know, it's the surprise when I'm like, I usually come up with my best ideas in the shower or when I'm taking a walk and not listening to anything. So it's usually when I get that, like, little high of inspiration of like, oh, this is actually a really good idea. And for a split second, I don't think I'm worthless and sad and pathetic. It's like, yeah, that'll work. That'll be cool. You know?

[B]

Yeah. Although, I mean, I feel like I speak on behalf of a great number of your admirers when I say you are neither sad nor worthless nor pathetic, but you do find that's just.

[A]

Cause you don't know me that well. Excuse me.

[B]

But you do find that magic, I think. And, And. And that is. I. I think in a lot of ways, like, as frustrating as I know it is on both sides for people to hear a creator they admire kind of be like, honestly, sometimes you just get inspired. That is the case. And I guess actually maybe to follow on from that inspiration in those moments of discovery is something, again, that a lot of writers talk about. And as I said, that can be frustrating for people who, you know, might be listening to this going, I'm trying to write an audio drama. I don't know how to do it or how to find that inspiration. What advice would you give to people who feel like they're not. They're not getting anywhere?

[A]

So one of the big things that really shapes my ideas about creativity is this author called Cal Newport.

[B]

And.

[A]

And he has written a lot about the importance of being bored and letting your mind wander. So when I am in the thick of writing, I will. As soon as I get home from my job, I will turn off my phone. I will put on this program that restricts my Internet use to thesaurus.com and Google Docs and a list of Trekker slang for the last miniseries. And I will just, like, not do anything except write. And that doesn't mean I write a lot. It just means that my mind is allowed to wander because it is so, so, so, so, so easy to be distracted nowadays. And I don't want to seem like this crotchety old guy because I'm 28, being like these kids with their cell phones, but it's so easy to take out your smartphone and listen to a podcast or listen to some music or read a really interesting article on Wikipedia and Then you don't get anything done because your mind is preoccupied. And the best ideas come like when you are bored. So in the shower there are like these shower like speakers and I swear if I had those my idea like I could not straight up could not write like you need to let yourself be bored. That's like always my main advice when anybody wants to, wants to write. And that's like my one piece of good advice.

[B]

I see it also top tip for anyone who does want to remember their ideas in the shower. You can get crayons that write on your shower walls that you can wipe off again. But if you have an idea in the shower, you can write it down. So yeah.

[A]

Oh fun. Do you have those?

[B]

Yes. I also find that, yeah, I. The times that I come up with ideas are in weird places. But for me I do more academic work. So it's a little strange. But so I guess to go more specific, pass inspiration. Okay, someone's got inspiration. They know what they're doing. They're trying to communicate with a producer that hopefully they are nice to. But what advice would you give to people writing unreal worlds in audio?

[A]

So first I wrote an article about this for the Portalist that you should check out. I've also written an article for Electric Literature about specifically writing stuff that I don't think is a little. It's a little haphazard, but I think has some good tips. So when creating unreal worlds, it's a balance of what information you give to your audience. And it's important to let the audience picture the things. Essentially let the audience do the work for you. One of the reasons that audio fiction is so, so, so good at creating unreal worlds is that it gives the audience just a little bit of information and then they take it from there. So for example, if you have a character going oh no, the terrible monster. It's 12ft tall with huge knives for teeth. And it's a pretendance of green body hair and fur. And then it goes on for a describing it. It's not just bad dialogue. It's not giving the audience space to let their imagination wander and let their imagination do the work. So if you go like, oh no, the teeth. There are too many teeth and then have some really like gross sounds, then the audience's pictures in their heads might not be all the same, but they're going to be creepy and they're gonna be or weird or unnatural and they're all gonna be like their own and they're all gonna be much better than if you'd spent five minutes talking about the asshole of the monster or whatever. And I think that's like, the important thing. It's let the audience do the work for you and let your sound do the work for you. This is one of the things that I really genuinely think is that audio drama is not a writer's medium. Writing is extremely important and it's. It's amazing and it's. But, like, just how movies or tv, they're not writers, mediums. TV is a producer's medium. Movies are directors, mediums, plays are actors, mediums. The most important thing about audio drama is the sound. It's the sound design. It is a audio drama is a sound designer's medium. So the writing should reflect that. And this is like my main point that I always, always hit on. But, like, the writing should serve the sound design anyway. Cool.

[B]

That definitely comes across, I think. And so this gives me a nice way as well to jump onto my next question. So we talked about worlds and monsters and physical things and to sort of jump up into the heavens or pseudo heavens or hells or whatever you want to call them. There are a lot of esoteric forces in Archive 81, because, you know, calling it magic is a bit Harry Potter.

[A]

Yep. Fuck Harry Potter.

[B]

What interests you about writing these things?

[A]

I think that it's a different answer to every season because season one doesn't have a lot of magic rituals. Every season it shifts. It's not like we are doing magic rituals or monsters every single season. It's a lot more varied than that. And I think what interests me is not like, the specific type of magic. Like, season three was magic rituals. Season two was more Dreamlands stuff. Season one was very much a, like, archive tape thing. What interests me is using sound to communicate the ineffable. Like, to communicate, like, really interesting things that you can't really do in TV or movies because either the budget would be too big or the picture that the audience creates in their mind will be too, like, weird and creepy and strange. That, like, having an actual image of it couldn't compare. Does that make sense?

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. I really got that in season two especially. I felt like even prose couldn't have given me the feeling that I got while listening to season two. And yeah, there's no better way, I think, to describe it than that you created a way to imagine the impossible. And I really can't put that into words without other sounds. But I guess actually.

[A]

Oh, just. Sorry. Before you start, a question for you. Okay, so what's Your order of favorite seasons and miniseries.

[B]

Ooh.

[A]

Because there's definitely an order, I think, that most people have, but I'm interested in hearing what yours are.

[B]

See, now I'm a little scared of the order that most people have, I guess, if I'm trying to.

[A]

Also, Golden Age is its own separate thing that has to be ordered. And since this latest miniseries, Left of the Dial, like, don't include that, but do include Golden Age, I'm very particular.

[B]

Okay, well, I was gonna say that. Yeah, I guess when I'm trying to get people into Archive 81, I often tell them to listen to an episode of Golden Age because I think it's quite quickly illustrates a lot of the things I love about the show, which is this combination of, like, a subtlety and showing and not telling and also super weird, scary shit, but in a really intoxicating and enchanting way. However, for me personally, I. I do really love the third season because I love Nicholas and Christine. I have a brother, so I feel quite strongly about their relationship. And. But I don't think that I would love season three if it wasn't for season one and season two, because one of the reasons I love season three is it gives us a completely different perspective on all of the batshit stuff we've been seeing. Like, we've seen sort of Dan coming into it with just no idea about any of it. And then you get season two, and I love the idea of people trying to explore this dimension and like. And just like that whole premise and. But it's so alien and then kind of putting those things together and bringing them into a harmony. Those thoughts of people who don't really know what they're doing. But also there's this huge, huge thing going on that they don't know about, that we, the audience, know about. It puts us in a really interesting position, I think, where we know kind of as much as some of the antagonists or more morally ambivalent characters, because we know about this dimension, we know about Dan, we know about this building. And so if I had to put them in order, I would probably. If I'm not including Left of the Dial, I would probably go season three, Golden Age, season two, season one. But I think you need all of them for it to work. I think it's like taking out. I really do think it's like taking out an instrument or a musical line from an orchestra or a piece of music. Like, I think I wouldn't love season three without the others.

[A]

Okay, mine's Golden Age season Three, Season one, Season two. Yeah, I like, like, also good instinct in how. In showing people Golden Age, because I do think that's the best way for people to get introduced. Because as much as I like season one, I think that we've grown a little bit as audio producers and we know more about stuff, and Golden Age is very. Is. Yeah, I'm very proud of Golden Age.

[B]

Yeah, I think that comes across like. I also love season one, and I think season one was where my emotional connection to the show started. But I think that in terms of a piece of audio fiction, like, in my professional opinion, Golden Age has a lot of confidence in the medium and in what it's doing and in what it's playing with, which I think is really exciting and really distinguishes it from a lot of other podcasts and actually has a lot to teach. So. Yeah, you're welcome. So this conversation actually leads very nicely into a question that I've wanted to ask you for a while, which is. You mentioned this before. Each season of the show is very different in tone from the previous one. Can you talk about why you've made that decision?

[A]

So I think that the answer is because we get bored. We get bored way too easily. And, like, so I think that there's a lot to say about doing a very contained story where with a beginning, middle, and end. And, like, it's very much, season one goes to season two goes to season three, and it progresses. And, like, you know, there's a bunch of great shows that do that, the Bright Sessions, you know, like, it's very much a singular story, like, you know what I'm saying?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And there's a bunch of wonderful shows that do that. However, I think what interested Dan and I about, like, doing a podcast was, like, exploring the potential of audio fiction and doing something new and weird every time gives us a wider breadth and lets us. Lets us really do that. So none of this is planned out. Like, we do not have a general, like, arc of the show in mind. And personally, I don't like. It's not. I don't like. But I personally don't think I could write a show like that or. I mean, of course I would. I'm very talented, but I'm more interested in, like, not fucking with expectations, but, like, doing something new and doing something different and hopefully the audience will come along. But it's mostly to, like, entertain and challenge Dan and I because, like, after season one, season two is. It's. It's. Is very obviously like, it should be, you know, Archive 81, but in a mental institution. And the tapes are creepier. It's Archive 82, you know, more tapes creepier. And I think if we did that, Dan and I would just, like, hit our heads against a wall and just until our. Until our noses were bloody, because that's boring to us. So we decided to keep, like, the idea of listening to tapes, but, like, move it to an entirely different plane of existence and to, like, write to explore the themes in a different way. And I think that, like, every season is more of that. It's just like. Like, season three is okay, so season two is more like, oh, I think that Dreamlands and Other Worlds are really interesting. And I had just reread Jeff Vandermeer fairly obviously. And. And we also didn't want to do as much Dan. And then golden age is. We wanted to, like, I had always wanted to do an Orson Welles type thing, like, just because I find him super fascinating and I'm very jealous of him and find Golden Age radio just wonderful and interesting. And then season three, like, we thought that, like, the idea of, like, this dad, like, slowly intoning a very creepy ritual into an old recorder was sonically interesting. And we also did not want to feature Dan as much. Essentially, every. Every season we try and move further and further away from us acting.

[B]

Just.

[A]

Because acting, as well as doing acting, as well as sound designing and writing and directing is very difficult.

[B]

That's fair. And I guess, like, as a follow up to that, like, then what specifically attracted you about writing a road trip for Left of the Dial specifically?

[A]

So we wanted to do something different. We wanted to do a little thing before season four to kind of stop the gap and like, give. Give our amazing fans something to listen to. And I think so Road trip, part of it came from this idea of, like, the weirdness and the strangeness of tuning a radio station in where you're driving and you don't really know what it is, but it's. You're listening to old preachers and you're like, wait, is this Christianity? I'm pretty sure this isn't Christianity. They're talking about gods with hooves and, like, weird revelation type shit. And like, this is. This is strange. And there's a song that you've never heard before, and there's a banjo music playing softly and you'll never be able to, like, catch it on Shazam or anything. And we. We liked that strangeness. And I have been listening to a lot of Americana recently. I really like the idea of banjo music and using banjo music and we wanted to explore the Nicholas and Static man relationship a little bit, give them something of a. Not a resolution, but a good story beat before. Before season four. And. Yeah, I think that's kind of where it came from.

[B]

Okay. And I suppose a follow up to that. And not just with Nicholas and Static man, but out of all of the characters in all of the show, who's your favorite character to write?

[A]

Who's my favorite character to write? Sponsor bot. I mean, Sponsorbot is the fun. Is definitely the most fun to write. Just because he. He or they. I think it's a he. I'm. There's something extraordinarily masculine about Sponsorbot, but, like, their. It is so, so easy to write Sponsorbot because, like, you write some weird shit about this robot that hates humans, and it's funny and it takes like, 20 minutes, and everybody loves it. It's. And. And I voice it, so it's fun. It's fun. As opposed. So talking about characters with actual plots and stuff. Static man is a very particular character to write. And I. It's. It's one of those things where I was really worried that people would not get Static man or, like, Static man because he's very much the hipster in a fraternity thing. Like, he is the one. The one, like, dude in a fraternity that listens to, like, mgmt, you know, and it's a very. It's a very. Like, Dan and I both went to college at Syracuse University, and he's a very, like, Syracuse type, and he's this, like, strange, otherworldly being, but he's got so many, like, specific details, and he's a very earthy character, even though he's made of static and teeth, that it's. It's kind of a blast to write. Like, they're. Dan and I joke that, like, Nicholas, Christine, and Static man are like, the three. Like, if you jumbled them all together, you'd get me, you know, like, it's a very particular type of. Type of Meg, you know?

[B]

And are there any characters that you want to give more screen time to?

[A]

Well, let's reverse that. Are there any characters you want more scream time?

[B]

Well, so I recently went to Comic Con and cosplayed as Christine, so I think you know the answer to that question. But no, I mean, for me, in all seriousness, I adore Christine. I think she's really cool. I would love to see more of the. The whole crew of the Irons. I think that they're a really fun set of characters, and I like how they play off each other. And it would be super interesting to see more of them. I kind of want to see more of. I'm not sure if we ever get her name, but the woman who is looking after. I think it's Alice in episode six in season three. The one who's really stressed out that Nicholas and Christine keep breaking protocol.

[A]

Huh?

[B]

Because she was. I mean, mostly just because she's this random side character. And I think it's always kind of hilarious and entertaining when random side characters come back. I just want to know if she, like, turns admin evil.

[A]

Well, she's already. She rd is evil. Like, you don't look after, like, Alice and not be evil. Like, one of the. One of the things that, like, is interesting in fan reactions is fans often have this, like, attachment to, like, genuine characters that are genuinely, like, definitely bad. Like, the thing about, like, Nicholas and Static man is that, like, yes, they're very lovable. Like, they should both be in prison. Like, they don't do good things. Like, that's one of the things that I kind of like is, like, trying to find the, like, decent human beings in the cast. And there really, really, really are not a lot. Like, may, like, Lou is probably the kindest character in Archive 81.

[B]

Well, you know what? That's actually why, in all seriousness, this is one of the reasons that I really want to see. I would love to see more exploration of the crew of the Irons, because I think they're some of the only characters we see in all of Archive 81 who have managed to preserve some level of goodness. And I love the violence. I genuinely do. I find it fun and fascinating and challenging. And I really love Static man and I love Nicholas, despite the fact that I know he's gonna break my heart and betray all of us.

[A]

No promises. He's his own person.

[B]

I don't trust like that.

[A]

He's on a journey.

[B]

I don't trust like that. But I do think there's this huge. There's this immense strength and in a group of people who live in a world like the world that you set up in Archive 81 and still are that kind. Like, even Teddy is kind. He's grumpy, but he's kind.

[A]

Okay, so our main request for season four and any miniseries is always do an Irons centric thing. And I'm not saying that we'll never go back to them, but I am saying that one of the reasons that people like episode six is because it's self contained and you don't spend a Lot of time with the characters. And it's very. Even though it's over an hour, it is short and sweet. And your imagination does. And like I was talking about before, does all of the work. You do all the work with the character relationships. I don't do shit. I write like a couple scenes. And Dan. Dan does a ton of shit. Like with the music and everything and sounds. It's amazing, incredible. But it works because it's not a 20 episode thing. It works because you. You get glimpses of it and it's interesting and exciting and your imagination is piqued and you fill in the blanks for all their adventures. And the adventures that you imagine are far more interesting than anything I could come up with because they're personal to you and they're fun and they're this unique, interesting thing. It's the. I will defend the Star wars prequels. I think they are much better than the new ones. My Star wars list is Star Wars Episode 4, Episode 5, Rogue One, Episode 6, Episode 1, Episode 3, Episode 2, and then way at the fucking bottom. Everything else, the Solo, Episode seven, Episode eight, I think they're bullshit. Rogue One is good. Everything else just sucks. I really, really dislike them. I think they're extremely corporate and just boring. Anyway, that was a tangent. But I will defend the prequels. But one of the issues with that is it's filling in. Things that are should be left to your imagination to fill in. And I am a big proponent of kind of walking a little bit back and letting the audience explore the space rather than letting us put the hammer of God and, you know, like, say, okay, no, this is exactly what happens.

[B]

This.

[A]

Does that make sense? Am I being too mean? Ella? I feel like I'm being too mean.

[B]

No, no, I think it does make sense and I think it's interesting because I really, really love Archive 81. And it was funny because when you. Because I did want to know whether there were characters that you, Mark, kind of wanted to explore, it felt like you hadn't been able to explore yet. But when you turned it back on me, I realized that I hadn't really thought about it. And my instinctive answer is the Irons, because I do love that episode. But I think you're right. And I think that the truth is that I do, for me, because I like the show. I trust that whatever character you introduce me to, if you gave me a whole new set of characters next season, I will like them and I will enjoy them and I will be frightened of them or I will Fall in love with them, or I will feel kind of both at the same time and I won't know what to do. Like, when Melody came back in season two and I didn't know how to feel. But yeah, I think that in terms of characters that I want to see more screen time of, I would like to see new ones and new people and new people who have different relationships with this world.

[A]

Well, that's really, really sweet and I really like that, Ella. Thank you.

[B]

No worries. And I feel like we're kind of getting towards the end of my questions, but I do have one more, which is a little. It kind of ties into what we were talking about, which is. I'm just really curious. The forces or magic or gods or dimensions. However, we should kind of. Whatever the group title is, for all the weird shit that happens in Archive 81, how much do we, the listeners, know about them? Because it feels like we know a lot. But is it really like 1% of the reality or 10%, or is it.

[A]

Like 80% or so for the quote unquote magic or the gods or something like that? So all that stuff is purposive purpose, purposefully left extremely vague. So, like. And it doesn't necessarily make logical sense, and it is not supposed to make logical sense. I do, and I think Dan feels the same way. I think that, like, giving concrete answers to magic is. Takes the mystery and magic out of it. Like, as soon as you give concrete answers that are like, this works, this doesn't. It really, like, takes the mystery and magic out of it. So there are a couple, like, principles that I think are important with, like, the whole magic, weird gods, leviathans thing. And, like, the main one is you don't get something from nothing. And so, like, it requires everything, requires some sort of sacrifice. And the other main thing is nobody knows shit. Like, people think they know shit, people don't know shit. And even I try and keep, like, everything slightly mysterious to me. And I will know I failed as a writer if people are pissed that they didn't get answers at the end of the show, you know, like, the point of Archive 81 is not to find answers. And I don't think because, like, it's supposed to be mysterious and strange. It is much. It is supposed to be like Lovecraftian rather than A Season of Lost. And I mean Lovecraftian in the sense of the world. I do not like Lovecraft himself, but I do like reinterpreting his themes because they're really great themes. He's just a Shitty writer and a terrible human being. But anyway, that's the answer. I wonder, is that satisfying?

[B]

I think so. I was thinking about it whilst you were talking because I. I'm a curious person and I like having answers and I like engaging with the fiction I consume and I like feeling like I can map it. But yeah, it was thinking about what you were saying. And I do feel like the difference for me between the way I consume Arcade 81 and other shows that I really adore. Other shows like the Bright Sessions, like Ars Paradoxica, like the Deca Tapes, is that with Archive 81 it almost feels like a different kind of painting. It's like I am here to get a feeling and a sensory and imaginative experience, but I'm not necessarily here for, yeah, answers or a sort of sequential story that's very neat and well told and well crafted. I don't like. I think the arc of 81 has that. But that's not what I come to the show for. I come to the show for something that sounds impossible and takes me far away.

[A]

And I think that like one. One of the interesting things is like, we. It's not like we're. Dan and I are trying to like not give you interesting stories and just do like a weird, weird ass sound collage. Because that would be. That would not be fun. It's like there are really, hopefully interesting stories within archive 81, but it's not like it's telling a single story and it's not like it's specifically mapping out the progression of a certain character. It's more like we're more interested in telling stories within a world rather than telling one story.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's something else that I really like about season three. Because I think that season three really grounded that for me. Because obviously in season one we're stuck in one location. In season two we're in an incomprehensible location. And in season three we're back in the world and we're seeing all these people and systems in this kind of ecosystem of. Of shit that is going on and people who are living their lives. And Nicholas and Christine kind of takes on a bit of a tour of that. And I think, yeah, in a lot of ways that felt, I suppose, more comprehensibly to me than the other seasons. Okay. I'm living in this world now and I'm starting to understand what that world looks like when I'm, you know, not trapped in an archive or an eldritch dimension. And I think that's Something else that I liked about the Golden Age as well, because the Golden Age told me that this world had existed for a while, and having that sense of history in the world of Archive 81 was really exciting and really interesting that this isn't just new. This isn't something that kind of happened in the 80s. This is something that's been around for a while, that will be around for a while, and it's interesting to visit. But, you know, from the safe distance of it being on my phone and me not actually being there, I would love to know, how did. How did Melody go from getting into that dimension to being in the position of power that she's in in season two? Because I feel like there's some implication it's to do with the song and it's to do with what she learned through the Visser Complex. But like. But also what we learned in. Exists in the place you're currently occupying is that there are forces who have power. And I feel like Melody does reference them in season two. So, yeah, like, how did that happen?

[A]

You're going to have to think of that for yourself. That's one of my favorite things, is leaving plot points open enough that if we circle back to them, we can seem really, really smart and seem like we've got a big plan, even if we don't. So who knows? I kind of like have a. Have an idea in my head of how she did it, but I have not purpose. But like, Dan and I have purposely don't define a lot of things. And we do that because it's. The mystery is more interesting and because it lets everybody fill in the blanks more. And because if we ever decide to reference it, we can seem really smart. And it's like. It's a good story.

[B]

Fair. Very fair. So in season two, we learned that people with money and power are learning about these things and trying to use them and not generally succeeding. But are there any sort of forces or figures or corporations that have succeeded in the past in harnessing these things or that are now trying to. To kind of. Are there any big bads that we should be worried about? Just tell me the spoiler.

[A]

Okay. Like, okay, so you want spoilers. And I totally understand. The only thing I'll give you is that next episode, there's. The clerk is going to talk about something, and it's something important that she's been doing. Been doing or trying to do. And that I can't make any promises, but that is something that we might explore in a little bit. Maybe okay, yeah, that was super fucking vague. Wasn't.

[B]

Was still intriguing, though.

[A]

Yeah. That's the whole point of archive 81. Super fucking vague, but still intriguing.

[B]

This would just be your new tagline. Just stick that on your business cards. Just hand it to people. Don't tell them what you do.

[A]

Definitely.

[B]

I do have a question about a character, which is, is there anyone left? Okay, so assuming. And I really don't think this is going to happen because I'm sorry, I admire you greatly, but I don't trust you. I don't think Static man is going to get his body back. But if he got his body back, is there anyone left to care? Yeah. Does he have any friends or family at all left? I feel like he doesn't.

[A]

Hmm. So I sort of. I'm not going to answer whether he gets his body back or whether he gets a body back or whether he comes back at all. But I don't think the way that Static man is written, and I think from the first two episodes of Left of the Dial, you get the sense that he doesn't necessarily have a large friend group that he can hang with. You know, there's not a lot of. He's not going to go to a watch party for the game for Game of Thrones final episode. And I think that, like, one of. One of the. I'm. I've been inspired by a lot of different works over the past couple years and I think I did a big Twitter spread, big Twitter thread of all my inspirations. And besides Uncle Boonmi, who can recall his past lives and the work of Kelly Link and a bunch of other really, really wonderful writers, mostly Jeff Vandermeer and a bunch of really great writers. One of the things that really inspired me, especially in season three, is this RPG called Unknown Armies. It's a tabletop RPG and I don't play tabletop RPGs, but I mean, I listen to a couple actual plays because I'm a fucking nerd. But I find that they're really, really great inspirations for you to, like, write. Like, it's a really really. Because essentially, like, tabletop RPG source books are basically just lists of ideas and cool things that you can think about. And that is a really, really great way to. Is for writing. And Unknown Armies has a. Takes place in the modern world, but there's magic and. But the people who do magic are all fucked up because they essentially, it's. If you see the world in a cracked enough and weird enough way, like you can cause reality to crack and warp and that's not necessarily, like, Archive 81's magic system or whatever. But the thing I like about it is that, like, the people that would do this are really desperate and broken and not, like, in a good place emotionally. Like, if you saw a ritual that was like, okay, you can get a really nice butt, but you have to kill a goat and eat its genitals and then throw them up into a skull that you have consecrated in a moving river that is not polluted by human contact. And that's. That's the way you get a really nice ass. Like, nobody's gonna do that. You have to be really fucking damaged and weird to, like, think, okay, you know what? I am going to kill a goat and eat its genitals and throw them up into a skull or whatever, or, you know, like, crack a mirror and, like, tie the glass around my arm and, like, cut and, like, cut out my left eye. And hopefully that will give me five extra years of life, you know, like, you have to be in a certain place to do that. And I think that one of the things that really inspired me with Unknown Armies is the idea that, like, people who do magic rituals, people who are interested in this aren't the most. Not normal, but aren't the most. They aren't the people that you want to house sit for you over the weekend, I think is the best way to put it.

[B]

Yeah, I see that. And I think, like, in the way that, I suppose fiction and unreal fiction and surreal fiction in a lot of ways, obviously lets us explore our own feelings of alienation or confusion or curiosity or lack of knowledge about the world around us. I. I feel in the same way, obviously, characters that are impossibly broken or impossibly sort of lost help us explore the ways that we feel maybe a little bit more realistically broken or realistically lost. Whether that's just, you know, you don't have a job or, like, some shit went down. And I think that's a big part of why it's so easy to forgive so many of the characters in Archive 81, like Nicholas and Staticman and Christine. Because you. You like the idea, like. Like, you like the idea that people would forgive you on a different scale with a more grounded reality. And I suppose that's kind of where my question's coming from, because, yeah, I think that in Left of the Dial especially, it becomes increasingly clear, although I think it was also there in Season three. The Static man is just, like, real lonely. Like, he seems to try quite hard to make friends, but he's just. He's really lonely. And.

[A]

That'S where the erotic fanfic comes from.

[B]

Is it? Oh, no, I don't know.

[A]

I don't know where the erotic fanfic comes from. I interrupted you and you were saying something that you put it in a way that I don't think I could have. Honestly, in a much better way than I could have. Sorry for interrupting you for a dumb joke.

[B]

Thank you. Well, no, I was just going to say that. Yeah, I feel like Static man is lonely. And so when I imagine the idea that he, you know, let's say everything's sunshine and roses, he gets his body back. Nicholas doesn't betray him, everything's great, there are no consequences. Then what? You know, like, he's this sad, lonely, broken person. He doesn't seem to particularly like all of the real sick, violent shit he does. Like, he's willing to kind of threaten it, but it becomes again, more and more clear that he doesn't like it. And then what? He's like, hey, presto, I'm in a body now and I have no friends and no one who cares about me, and no job and no money. And also, I'm hella traumatized. I guess I just wonder about what's gonna happen to him. Because I like him.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, it's.

[B]

It's.

[A]

It's strange because, like, I feel like I have an affection for all these characters because I have to. Like, I write them and they're like, I have to like them or else writing them would be a chore and would be a pain. Like, I have to, like every character I write. But it's strange because, like, it's interesting that you forgive characters that do unforgivable things, like. Because I see why I forgive them because I've written, they're mine. Like, they're my little baby boys and little baby girls, and I love them. But, I don't know, it's very gratifying that you also forgive them, even though you probably shouldn't.

[B]

Yeah. And I suppose it's interesting sort of thinking about that kind of thing, because I think, again, a thing that I'm really enjoying about Left of the Dial at the moment is seeing the difference in the way that Nicholas and Static man deal with shit. Like, of the three of them, I think Christine is definitely the most easily forgivable.

[A]

And, oh, yeah, Christine's the. Christine is like, one of the very few nice characters. She, like, I named her after my mom, so I'm not going to be like, she's going to be a good character. Like, I only name characters after my mom if they are very nice and I love them very much. But, like, yeah, no, Christine. Christine has, like. Christine's kind of a. Kind of a fuckboy. Like, she definitely, like, will ghost people on Tinder, like a hundred percent. She's not. She's not, you know, like the kindest person. She definitely, like, you know, kick somebody out of her room. But she has a moral core. And Nicholas, I think, not that he doesn't have a moral core, it's just he has this thing of only caring about the people he cares about, which is a dangerous thing. And I say this is someone who has that quality too.

[B]

Yeah. And that definitely comes across. And I think it's the thing where sort of a static man is lonely, but he's kind of bad at hiding it and increasingly vulnerable with that. And you start seeing, like, he's not very good at holding up his facade and he's kind of fraying around the edges. Whereas with Nicholas, it feels like he knows he's lonely and that's okay. He's made the decision that that's a thing that he's willing to accept. And so even when he's kind of joking around and being kind of playful, it's like you can. You can see the person that he was, like, the person who was genuinely playful and genuinely kind of teasing. And now it feels quite artificial. It feels like he is doing this in order to manipulate a reaction from the person he's talking to, because he knows that he needs to do this in order to get that from them. And that is a conscious decision. And it's a lot less raw. And I think, you know, that kind of artifice normally comes from an emotional place. It normally comes from that desperation and, you know, some fucked up shit. But also he has made that decision.

[A]

Ella, Ella, I'm gonna have to ask you to stop because I put a lot of myself into Nicholas. And you're psychoanalyzing him in a way that makes it feel like you're psychoanalyzing me and I'm being very scared.

[B]

Oh, I'm so sorry.

[A]

No, no, no. Mostly I'm joking, but, like, it's. Yeah, I mean, the thing about Nicholas is that, like, oh, man, I really hope he isn't lying about caring about other people because I put so much of myself into Nicholas. He is, like, his obsession with doing weird magic rituals. I tend to base on my, like, desire to write and stuff. And, you know, I also have daddy issues. And I also have a. I mean, it's. It's. It's weird. The strangest. So one of the strangest things about doing Archive 81 and putting Archive 81 out there, and one of the greatest things is, like, having a bunch of people listen to it and talk about it and have hopefully good opinions about it. And even if people don't like it, then, you know, that's fine. Like, it's not for everybody. You still listen to it. That's really cool. But one of the most interesting things is, like, seeing the characters that are sort of based on us, or in some cases, based on us, voiced by us and that have our same fucking name, which really helped in season one when we didn't want to. Want to. We wanted to make sure that the voice acting was exactly what we wanted. And we didn't want to pay a lot of money for a voice actor because we pay all our actors, and Dan's the main voice. But kind of got weird when, you know, there's fan art of Dan, you know, Daniel Powell, my. One of my best friends and, like, business partner out there. And, like, people are acting like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe Dan did that. It's like, well, hey, you should forgive Dan. He's a really nice, nice guy. Don't. Don't say those mean things about Dan. Not Dan. And, like, having people react to characters that are kind of facets of my personality or Dan's personality or people. I know, it's just. It's interesting. It's weird. And I mean, it's. It's very gratifying. But it is a strange emotional experience, to put it mildly.

[B]

I can see that. And I also do want to say that I do care about Nicholas. I am very sure he is gonna do something that's really gonna test how much I can forgive him. But I am scared of that because I like him and because it's very clear that he cares about Christine. And at least right now, it seems like he cares about Static Man. I want to believe he does, but. Yeah.

[A]

So, Ella, this has been really, really wonderful, and I hope our audience has enjoyed it. You have asked really, really interesting questions and said some really interesting things, and I have just faffed about and talked about the importance of sound, like I always do. Thank you so much for being here. I really, really appreciate it. Do you have anything that you would like to tell our listeners to do?

[B]

I do. But first of all, I want to say thank you for inviting me on, because this has been real fun. And yeah, if anyone would like to find out more about what I do, I work on a podcast called the Orphans, which is a sci fi drama, which I love very much. And also I sort of yell about audio drama on Twitter. So if you want to help me fly the flag of sort of the audio fiction community, then I'm on Twitter EJWatts. That's Gollf Echo. Juliette Watts.

[A]

Amazing. Thank you once again, so much. I really, really appreciated this.

[B]

Thank you.