Cynthia Nixon (4:41)

found the most fantastic jacket there. So there's always more to discover.

Kristin Davis (4:46)

Ebay has millions of pre loved finds from hundreds of brands backed by ebay. Authenticity guarantee eBay things people love Hi, I'm Kristen Davis and I want to know, are you a Charlotte?

Cynthia Nixon (5:06)

Hi everybody.

Kristin Davis (5:07)

Welcome to Are youe As Charlotte. We are talking to the fantastic Margaret Cho today.

Cynthia Nixon (5:15)

She's in one of the all time great episodes, the Real me.

Kristin Davis (5:19)

It's episode 402.

Cynthia Nixon (5:21)

So we're now in the fourth season which I really think of as the third season. Just a very long season. So this is the fashion show and

Kristin Davis (5:30)

she plays the producer of the fashion

Cynthia Nixon (5:32)

show and she's incredible. You may know Margaret, she's done so many things I don't even know where to begin. But she's done so much and she's also an incredible standup comedian and she's currently on tour. You can see her tour across the

Kristin Davis (5:46)

country and she has her own website for tickets.

Cynthia Nixon (5:49)

Margaretshow.com so check her out.

Kristin Davis (5:52)

Here we go. Let's talk to Margaret Cho about the Real Me.

Cynthia Nixon (5:56)

Hi Margaret Cho. I'm so excited you're here.

Margaret Cho (6:00)

I'm excited to be here. I'm Glad that we got to connect.

Cynthia Nixon (6:04)

Gosh, me too. Because this episode is one of my all time favorites and you are such a big part of it. We had to get you. We had to get you. I love it.

Margaret Cho (6:13)

I love this one.

Cynthia Nixon (6:14)

Yeah, it's good, right?

Margaret Cho (6:15)

It's such a great one, isn't it?

Cynthia Nixon (6:18)

And so the episode is called the Real Me. For anyone who doesn't remember, it's very iconic. I don't use that word frequently, but this would be one. And had you seen it lately or did you rewatch and think like, wow, I forgot about this.

Margaret Cho (6:31)

No, I saw it actually really recently. I saw it a couple of, really just a couple of weeks ago as I was actually doing a rewatch for myself, you know, because I just think it's so iconic it deserves a rewatch. I mean, it's one of those ones where this is like the best of the show in that era and also the best of the time.

Cynthia Nixon (6:54)

Yeah.

Margaret Cho (6:54)

You know, when we're talking about great, great early 2000s television, you know, this was like really just the gold standard of what television was. And it was one of those really special episodes where you had amazing guest stars, you know, people playing themselves. Yes, really incredible.

Cynthia Nixon (7:12)

Now when you did the show at the time, what, what was your awareness of the show or what. How did you feel about, you know, your part and your like, I feel like you ad libbed. You brought a lot of yourself to it.

Margaret Cho (7:24)

Well, I had been obsessed with the show since the pilot and I was actually sent the pilot before it aired by Carolyn. Oh, at H. Yeah. Because she wanted me to write on it because I writing scripts. And I had a movie script that was kind of out there that was like my spec. And it was actually like such a, you know, kind of perfect entry point into the show. And so she sent it to me, but I was like trying to just do stand up comedy. And I kind of, you know, was at that impasse where didn't know if I want to be a writer or be stand up comic. You know, in a way, sometimes like those early days, you had to choose.

Cynthia Nixon (7:59)

Yeah.

Margaret Cho (8:00)

You know, and I kind of decided, well, I'm going to focus on stand up comedy. And I really did come to regret it because I really loved the show and I felt I, you know, I fell in love with the pilot. I really loved it. And then, you know, of course watched it after and then later became friends with Michael Patrick King.

Kristin Davis (8:18)

Right.

Margaret Cho (8:18)

Who. He and I would do stand up comedy shows together. Right. And so he and I were, I was Always telling him about how obsessed I was with the show and how much I loved it. And, you know, it just. This. This part worked out, and so I'm so glad that it did.

Cynthia Nixon (8:34)

Me too. But, gosh, we would have been lucky to have you as a writer. That would have been incredible.

Margaret Cho (8:39)

I would have loved to do that. I mean, you know, it just. It was one of those things where it's like, what do you want to be in life? I think that I probably would have come out better. I would probably be show running several shows right now. If I had chosen that route, I would be doing a lot like, you know, it would be Shondaland. It would be Choland.

Cynthia Nixon (8:58)

Absolutely. It could still happen. It could still happen. But, you know, the other thing is that I feel like as a woman and being a standup, it was important then. I mean, it's still important now. Right. I just feel like there weren't that many. And it seemed like there was an opening at that time where you and a few others really, like, stepped through that door. And. And I think that was important. It felt important to me to know that there were women standups out there, you know, kind of doing what was traditionally thought of as a. As a male thing and. And kind of telling things from the point of. A different point of view, you know, your own point of view. I. I felt like that was important.

Margaret Cho (9:36)

Thank you. Yeah, it's. It's. It really was. You know, and it's also like, I. I just think it. It was so different then because we really had to. We couldn't do it all. I think now women have a sort of a way that they can do everything. There's a way that we could do it all. But by back then, you really had to choose, like, what's your track?

Cynthia Nixon (9:55)

There were so many. Like, with us, it was like TV or film, like, things that don't even make sense anymore to say out loud, you know, but back then, yeah, you had to kind of pick a lane and stay in it, which is so unfair.

Margaret Cho (10:08)

It's so unfair because. And it was even to the point of like, oh, are you going to be a model or an actress? Are you going to be a mother? Or are you going, you know, like. Yes, like.

Cynthia Nixon (10:17)

Or lesbian. Yes, yes. Or a lesbian mother. Absolutely. Absolutely. And now, I mean, I think because of social media also, like, as I was watching the episode too, you know, it's about your inner model. Carrie has this whole thing, am I a model? Can I fit in? You know, what is my role here? And Then I was thinking about how different it is now in that, like, everyone, like, if you want to be like a model on your Instagram, you can dreaming. Like, it's interesting. It's very interesting in terms of. I mean, I guess what she's also looking for is kind of like an outward seal of approval too. But that's what kind of social media can seemingly provide, though it. It's not real, you know.

Margaret Cho (11:00)

Right.

Cynthia Nixon (11:00)

It's interesting. It's interesting.

Margaret Cho (11:03)

What's super interesting, too, is watching this episode again and not having the social media element.

Kristin Davis (11:09)

Yeah.

Margaret Cho (11:09)

Because. Because if you had done sort of the episode. If you had done this episode, say in, you know, just like that, you would have had the whole other part of, like, social media becoming viral. And then. She's a meme.

Cynthia Nixon (11:22)

Yep.

Kristin Davis (11:23)

Oh, yeah.

Margaret Cho (11:24)

Oh, and it would have been great to be able to explore that. I was like thinking, oh, you know, I actually accosted MPK like, two years ago right before season three of. And just like that. And I was like, I really want to do the show again. And he's like, oh, yeah, yeah, perfect. And I should have pitched that to him. We should do another.

Cynthia Nixon (11:45)

It would be so great. It would be so great.

Margaret Cho (11:48)

Have it something else happen, whether it not necessarily falling being fashion roadkill, but, you know, but having her become a meme.

Cynthia Nixon (11:57)

Absolutely.

Margaret Cho (11:57)

That was the era. We didn't have that yet.

Cynthia Nixon (12:01)

We did not have that yet. Mm. Mm. It's so different. I mean, it. Watching it is. There are definitely episodes where those kind of, like time differences are so clear, and this was one of them. And that I also think. I mean, this. This is. We've just started the fourth season.

Kristin Davis (12:19)

In my mind, I think this is.

Cynthia Nixon (12:22)

I always thought this was the third season. Right. Like, to me, the third season is when things really started working. And the fourth season, I don't even really remember, but when I watched this, I was like, oh, yeah. In my mind, I collected them all in the third season. Do you know what I'm saying? Because that's when we were. We just kind of gelled, you know, things got more cohesive. Not that. I mean, I like the first and season, first and second seasons much more than I thought that I would when I rewatched. But the third season, I love. Like, I passionately love. And these two episodes that we start the fourth season with, Michael Patrick wrote and directed, which is. That's how he would like to roll in life at all times. Right. But I think that was the first time he got to do it. And we aired them together, apparently. So this was really us kind of upping our game, like, this is what we can do. And when you look at the first episode next to the second episode, they're very different in the way where HBO allowed us, you know, to be a little bit more serious, a little bit more introspective, and then have something like a big thing like the fashion show where she falls down, which, you know, now is a meme. Like, even though we obviously did it back then, obviously it's.

Margaret Cho (13:27)

It is a meme now. It's out there. It's. You know, it's so fun because I see it, you know, you get. It gets used in things like Saint Hoax, which is a great kind of meme site. They use it. Use the clip often, which is really, really funny. It's really great. And I just love how it's become part of our, like, meme hieroglyphics.

Cynthia Nixon (13:50)

Yes. You know, there.

Margaret Cho (13:51)

There's a way to use memes as a kind of shorthand in society. So, yeah, fashion roadkill has become definitely part of the language.

Cynthia Nixon (13:59)

It's so good. I know.

Kristin Davis (14:00)

It's so good.

Cynthia Nixon (14:00)

I mean, I look at it also, and I. I don't. I don't know. I can see when I'm watching us that kind of. Everyone seems amped up in a certain way. Like, we know that things are working, you know, and we're excited to be there. Everyone seems very excited to be there. But I also think, on the other hand, I remember a lot of stress, right? Like, who could we get? Like, it's obviously not Dolce and Gabbana. I'm sure we tried to get the real Dolce and Gabbana. Right. And at one point they say something like, we're Dolce and Gabbana.

Kristin Davis (14:29)

Did people not know that they weren't

Cynthia Nixon (14:32)

really Dolce and Gabbana? It's so interesting to me.

Margaret Cho (14:35)

I think back then they would have just accepted it as, oh, face value. Of course, that. Of course. That's who they are.

Cynthia Nixon (14:40)

Right.

Margaret Cho (14:40)

You know, we didn't know enough to say, oh, that's not.

Cynthia Nixon (14:43)

Obviously that's Alan coming.

Margaret Cho (14:45)

Yeah.

Cynthia Nixon (14:46)

You know what I mean? Yeah. It's really funny. It's really funny. And, like, I don't know. I knew who Kevin Aquan was, but I don't know if regular people knew

Kristin Davis (14:54)

who Kevin Aquan was.

Margaret Cho (14:56)

Right. Outside of, like, the makeup. Sort of a geek people or. I mean, I knew because I was a fan of his books. Me, too. I loved his style, and I learned a lot from him. And he and I actually had a really good time backstage, and he gave me a huge, like, but big bags of his new product line that he was releasing, and he gave me signed books. Wow. That he had back there. And he was just so wonderful. And actually, that was the last time I got to see him before he passed away.

Cynthia Nixon (15:31)

I know. I know.

Kristin Davis (15:32)

Sarah had told us that she knew him and he'd worked on her before,

Cynthia Nixon (15:37)

and I think she called him to ask him to come, and all of us were very excited. And at one point, I think we wanted to go back there because you guys were kind of separate, you know, back there.

Kristin Davis (15:46)

And we were out front of the

Cynthia Nixon (15:47)

fashion show, and she said that he was laying down, that he didn't feel well because he was getting headaches from what would eventually be, you know, horrible for him, and that his.

Kristin Davis (16:02)

His hands had grown like they're.

Cynthia Nixon (16:04)

There were things that had. She was aware of that I don't think publicly people were aware of, which is so sad when you watch it. He's so sweet.

Margaret Cho (16:11)

Yeah. He's such a beautiful man. And you would never imagine that somebody so young and vibrant and brilliant and gorgeous would not live very much long after that. You know, it's so strange.

Cynthia Nixon (16:25)

No, but I'm glad that you were there and that you got to spend time with him and that you had a good time. That's so good. That's so, so good. And I have talked to Heidi Klum

Kristin Davis (16:34)

since this, and I can't remember if

Cynthia Nixon (16:37)

we talked in depth about the day, but I know she had fun. Like, I think it was a fun day. Yeah.

Kristin Davis (16:42)

Do you remember it?

Cynthia Nixon (16:43)

Okay, good.

Margaret Cho (16:44)

It was a really fun day. I remember there just being this, like, flurry of activity. Like, it was not just like a set. It was really like a fashion show.

Kristin Davis (16:53)

Yeah.

Margaret Cho (16:54)

You had all of the models and you had all of the extras, but everybody looked perfect, you know, and it was just so well styled and just so real. I mean, exactly what you think.

Cynthia Nixon (17:07)

Do you have Pat memories?

Margaret Cho (17:08)

I mean, Pat, I've been a fan of, you know, her stores and, like, just her style and. Yeah, I was so excited to be styled by her and, you know, just to go in to that, you know, fashion, the workshop, you know, of all your characters out there and, like, what she was doing. She's just such a brilliant, you know, with that crazy red hair and just her energy was just. Was really exciting to just be around her.

Cynthia Nixon (17:35)

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Definitely. And that. That show, I remember it just being, you know, like, so heightened, you Know, so heightened to be trying to pull off that fashion show. And Ed Koch was there. And, you know, it was. I mean, it was a lot. It was a lot, but it was exciting. And I remember everyone being very amped up and excited. We had obviously just come back. Right. So we had a lot of energy. But also, I love all your scenes on the street, which I'd kind of forgotten about. Like, when you're on the phone with her, then you. When you run into her in that first restaurant, like, they're all so good. And how much input did you have in. Into that?

Margaret Cho (18:11)

Well, not. I mean, not a ton. Like, it was to me, Like, I just wanted to follow what Michael was, like, looking for. And then I think. I don't. I really don't think that any of it was really improv. Really, really. I think it was really just on the page.

Cynthia Nixon (18:25)

Wow.

Margaret Cho (18:26)

And it just kind of came together really naturally.

Cynthia Nixon (18:29)

Well, also, he knew you. I think when he knows people, he writes so well in your voice.

Margaret Cho (18:35)

Right. That's definitely it. Because we had done so many shows together, so he was really, really well versed in me. And he also knew the real person. So the character is a real person.

Cynthia Nixon (18:45)

Right.

Margaret Cho (18:45)

She actually runs all these shows, and she was actually there, too. So she was there to give us some advice and some kind of, like, pointers on what it was really like to be, you know, running and calling the shots at a show like that. So it was a wonderful combination between Michael's writing and this real life person.

Cynthia Nixon (19:04)

Absolutely. Absolutely wonderful. And so, like, kind of interesting. I remember at the time, like, when Carrie's talking about, you know, at one point, Charlotte says. I say to Carrie, like, how many shows did you drag me to? Like, this was the time that we were all going to Fashion Week. It was a very, like. It seemed like a very separate world back then. Not like now where, you know, it's like, all on our feeds and. Right. You know, very much discussed. I mean, at least for me. I don't know if that's true for everybody, but I guess social media. The social media effect. Right. But back then, it was like a kind of a exclusive, closed world, and we were just so excited to go. And I remember we'd go to the tents at Bryant park and just spend the day and just go to this show or go to that show or, you know, it. It was fun. It was interesting and fun and not. It was not. So it was like just being in a different world. It didn't feel like our world, which I is What I loved about it, and I don't feel like that's true anymore. I feel like all the worlds are just, like, blended together now, you know. Right.

Margaret Cho (20:07)

It's very different because now, you know, with these fashion shows, you see, like, influencers, and you see just all, you know, all of sort of the social media, like, presence there. And it is kind of for everybody. But back then, you know, it was a very big deal if you got invited to a show, and it was, like, you know, very tight and, you know, it was fast and frenetic. When the models came out, it was just so magical, and it was just very stunning to just watch the spectacle of fashion before you. And along with the specialness of being asked.

Kristin Davis (20:40)

Yes.

Margaret Cho (20:41)

You know, representing your, you know, New York, representing fashion, being, like, able to be in the audience was part of the show as well.

Cynthia Nixon (20:49)

Definitely. Definitely. And I think that's what's so smart about Michael, including, you know, basically just, like, wrapping the whole episode around that. And I also feel like, like, when Carrie's talking about, like, how much she loves models, like, it's so sweet, you know, it's so sweet. And that is how we grew up. I mean, for right or wrong. Right. Like, we were like, they're just amazing. Like, at one point, she goes on about Cindy Crawford's small. It's so cute.

Margaret Cho (21:15)

It's so cute.

Cynthia Nixon (21:16)

Like, innocent, you know, in a way.

Margaret Cho (21:19)

Well, it's almost like, you know, the dream that we have of femininity, the dream of womanhood, like, this is like the. The spectacle of womanhood that we're given and, you know, to. To just really enjoy that, the beauty of that. And it's. It's very innocent. It's very, like, goes into. Carrie has that kind of very little girl dreamlike quality sometimes, which makes her so incredibly engaging and somebody that you really identify with. Cause she kind of, you know, has so many little girl feelings that she brings to the surface. So that's one of them. I love that.

Cynthia Nixon (21:54)

That's so true. And it's mixed also with intelligence and irony all together, which is what also kind of makes her so interesting. Like when she tells the photographer, played by James McCaffrey, which I won't talk about in a second, that, you know, when she first moved to New York that she would. She would spend her money on Vogue rather than dinner because it fed her more. So adorable. So true.

Margaret Cho (22:15)

It's such a very, like, deep truth. And I remember once in the 90s, I was, like, on tour on my birthday, and I was having the worst birthday. Like, it was. Like it was in the mid middle of like, nowhere is freezing cold. And I was having dinner at a gas station restaurant.

Cynthia Nixon (22:34)

Oh, no.

Margaret Cho (22:35)

And I was. I actually had purchased at the airport an Italian Vogue.

Cynthia Nixon (22:41)

Oh, I'm reading my.

Margaret Cho (22:43)

My giant Italian Vogue in the middle of a gas station restaurant. And I felt better, like, this is not so bad because at least I have this.

Cynthia Nixon (22:53)

That's so true. That's so true. Because somehow, I mean, just the other day I. I was somewhere and I saw a real paper Vogue and I was like, yes, I need to hold it and touch it and look at it.

Margaret Cho (23:04)

Now all the cards fall out, right?

Cynthia Nixon (23:07)

The cards fall out and the ads are so beautiful. And it's something that I like. It's gonna go away, you know, and I'm sad about it.

Margaret Cho (23:15)

I wish that I had an old George.

Cynthia Nixon (23:18)

Remember George? Yeah, I do.

Margaret Cho (23:20)

You ever in George?

Cynthia Nixon (23:21)

I was. I don't think I was ever in George. I remember talking to them about being in George, but I don't know if I was. I just remember George and being like

Kristin Davis (23:31)

so excited about George.

Cynthia Nixon (23:33)

You know, just the idea.

Margaret Cho (23:34)

I mean, it would be so great to have George today. Could you imagine how great that would be?

Cynthia Nixon (23:39)

It would be great. It would be great. I know. We would need him, though, to make it great.

Margaret Cho (23:44)

That's right.

Cynthia Nixon (23:45)

It's true.

Margaret Cho (23:45)

It's true. But the idea of like a, you know, sort of a democratic leaning kind of humor, but also satirical, but also current event based. Like glossy.

Cynthia Nixon (24:01)

Exactly. That would be amazing.

Kristin Davis (24:08)

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A refresh can be as simple as amplifying your look with clean beauty from Thrive Cosmetics. Every product is 100% vegan, cruelty free and made with clean skin loving ingredients that work with your skin, not against it. I love, love love love the tinted eyebrow gel. You can use it and it lasts. It really lasts. I feel like even till the next day and it doesn't irritate in any way. I'm really, really fond of it. Another thing I love is every time you use your favorite Thrive Cosmetics product, you're doing more than enhancing your glow. You're helping others shine too. With over 150 million in product and cash donations to 600 plus giving partners, your purchase directly feels real impact and that's beauty with purpose. And if you haven't tried their viral Liquid Lash Extensions mascara, it's an absolute must. It comes in six shades that last all day without clumping, smudging or flaking. I love it so much. It makes your lashes look extra long by wrapping around each lash from root to tip. Plus, they use nourishing ingredients to support longer, stronger and healthier looking lashes over time. Amplify your spring look with Thrive cosmetics. Go to thrivecosmetics.com Charlotte for an exclusive offer of 20% off your first order. That's Thrive Cosmetics. C A U S E M E t I c s.com Charlotte let's talk about pain for a moment. We've all experienced it. You wake up ready to start your day, but those pesky aches and pains are already calling the shots. Maybe it's your sore back from yesterday's work or that knee that complains from taking the dog for a walk. Or perhaps it's your shoulder reminding you of that top shelf you had to reach at the grocery store. Life doesn't stop and neither should you. But don't worry, that's where leaves got your back. Literally. Aleve is designed to deliver long lasting body pain relief so you can take one pill and keep moving through your day. In fact, Aleve lasts up to 12 hours per dose. Yes, that's all day or all night relief with fewer doses. And let's be honest, when you're dealing with pain, the last thing you want is to keep checking the clock, wondering when you can take the next dose. A leave goes right to the source, targeting pain from inflammation so you can move freely and focus on what truly matters. Whether you're tackling muscle aches, back pain, or arthritis and joint pain, Aleve gives you the relief you need to keep going meetings, errands, workouts, or just keeping up with life. Aleve works from sun up to sundown, letting you spend your time on what's important. Aleve fits seamlessly into your life. Choose a leave and get on with your day without pain constantly tapping you on the shoulder. So the next time pain tries to slow you down, remember a leve keeps you moving with long lasting body pain relief that goes the distance. So you can too. Try a leave. Use as directed for minor aches and pains. All righty, it is time for our Hyundai hot take.

Cynthia Nixon (30:54)

And for this episode, the real me. I think I'm gonna have to say

Kristin Davis (30:58)

Samantha taking these nude photos that she

Cynthia Nixon (31:01)

does because it's so powerful for her to be, you know, in her Samantha type way, embracing her body and being so unapologetic and, you know, showing them to people and then telling Charlotte she should go look at herself. I mean, all of it is just so pro women and powerful that I, I think that's going to be my, my hot take.

Kristin Davis (31:26)

Go Samantha. Celebrating iconic moments, bold moves and unforgettable style. Just like Hyundai.

Cynthia Nixon (31:37)

It's interesting the whole, you know, because of this Ryan Murphy show, the, you

Kristin Davis (31:43)

know, like deep dive into the 90s

Cynthia Nixon (31:46)

of Carolyn, Bessette Kennedy and John. It's so fascinating to me. I mean, were you there like, were you in New York for all of the 90s?

Margaret Cho (31:58)

Yes, I was there back and forth. So I spent a lot of. I split between LA and New York and I would do different things in New York. I had a lot of friends there. I was hanging out with the rock band Luna. So they were in the East Village and so I was down there with all the rock stars and, you know, in giant platform shoes and walking all around in like a rayon knit. There was something very spongy about all the clothes in the 90s. It was kind of all rayon knit.

Cynthia Nixon (32:27)

Yeah, we weren't into cotton yet. It's true.

Margaret Cho (32:30)

Yeah, it was very rayon. Way too close to the skin and you know, just kind of boxy cuts on everything. And even like the shirting, like the like button up shirts that now it's like crisp cotton but then it had a stretch to it.

Cynthia Nixon (32:46)

Yeah, that's true.

Kristin Davis (32:47)

Yeah.

Margaret Cho (32:47)

Weird rayon.

Cynthia Nixon (32:49)

Yeah, it's true, it's true. Clothes were weird then. And I think it's interesting because now there's this whole kind of people are, you know, trying to get this style or trying to talk about this style. And I've seen a couple of things that have said like you're never going to get the style because the clothes are just fundamentally different. Which I do think is true. I do think that's true. And I don't think that they actually really want the clothes.

Margaret Cho (33:10)

No, they weren't as well constructed. We didn't have fast fashion right in the same way, so. But the stuff was just like not good, you know, it was. Didn't last.

Cynthia Nixon (33:24)

Right, right. And I just, I think it was hard to find like good tailoring at the time. You know, like, it was boxy. Everything was boxy and weird. Which is why when you saw someone like Carolyn, she. It's like Sarah Jessica, like Sarah Jessica wears these sweatpants around, but you cannot tell that they're sweatpants because she has styled them in Her Sarah Jessica way, right? And at one point she told me that she was trying to get clothes for her kids to go, daughters to go back to school. And her daughters were like, well, you'd never wear sweatpants. And she was like, I wear sweatpants every day. They were like you do, because just her own style dictates that everything will look different on her, which is why she is what she is. Which you would understand. Understand so much better than I would understand.

Margaret Cho (34:09)

Right.

Cynthia Nixon (34:09)

Like, you also have incredible style, but that's not something you can replicate.

Margaret Cho (34:13)

No, it's hard to actually do it. I mean, part of it is like mastering your own tailoring. Like, I take. I actually yesterday took sweatpants into the tailor.

Cynthia Nixon (34:23)

Like, I actually tell us the secrets

Margaret Cho (34:26)

you have to take sweatpants into the tailor.

Cynthia Nixon (34:28)

And what do you have them.

Margaret Cho (34:29)

Do you have them take. Move the cuffs on the bottom to the right length. So usually sweatpants are too. Either too long or too boxy in the leg or they have. So you have to actually have them kind of fit to your leg and, you know, really, really think about where there's too much fabric and think about where you will, you know, be able to maximize your look and not look so slovenly.

Cynthia Nixon (34:53)

Right.

Margaret Cho (34:54)

Sweatpants are meant. Sort of. Meant to be sort of a slovenly outfit, but they can actually be upgraded quite a lot.

Kristin Davis (34:59)

Right?

Cynthia Nixon (34:59)

Well, see, you know these things. I do not know these things. So I do not wear sweatpants out of the house. That's just me. I'm just like, I'm not gonna take a risk. Right? But, like, you guys understand style. But I just think also it's funny because people love that, but then they also don't really understand what goes into how that's done. Right. Like, you know this, you know, okay, you take your sweatpants to the tailor.

Margaret Cho (35:21)

I mean, who knew if you could do it yourself, I could do it myself. I don't have a machine anymore. I got rid of all my sewing stuff because it's just like, too much of an obsession to me because I like to make clothes.

Cynthia Nixon (35:31)

Wow.

Margaret Cho (35:32)

So it's very. It's. It's. It's very timec consuming and I. I don't think it's good. I feel.

Cynthia Nixon (35:38)

No, it sounds awesome.

Margaret Cho (35:40)

I do too much. So I want to just have it, like, simpler. And so, yeah, I just take them to the tailor. But it's, you know, I think if you really spend all of your time paying attention to what your clothes fit, like, you'll buy less. You know, you. You invest in the fit. And you don't like, kind of go. Because fast fashion is so pervasive. You want to buy, buy, buy.

Cynthia Nixon (36:04)

Right.

Margaret Cho (36:04)

But it's better to. To buy quality things.

Cynthia Nixon (36:07)

Right.

Margaret Cho (36:07)

Have them tailored to you. And then you have that thing which is. To me, that's the best.

Cynthia Nixon (36:12)

That's a good point. It's an excellent point. Absolutely. I try to remind myself to shop my closet.

Margaret Cho (36:17)

Oh, yeah, you should. I mean, you have amazing pieces.

Cynthia Nixon (36:19)

So. Thank you. I mean, only from work, right? Really?

Margaret Cho (36:23)

Well, you know, it's wonderful.

Cynthia Nixon (36:25)

It is wonderful. It's wonderful to have. And sometimes I forget. And so I'm like, oh, yeah, there's that thing. And I could just get it out. That's in whatever. I don't know. Or maybe I don't even care if it's in.

Kristin Davis (36:35)

Right.

Margaret Cho (36:36)

I mean, also Charlotte, like, I think Charlotte. Tom Brown wouldn't exist as it does without Charlotte, you know.

Cynthia Nixon (36:43)

Oh, that's the sweetest thing.

Margaret Cho (36:45)

Tom Brown is like the culmination of watching Charlotte for all of this time.

Cynthia Nixon (36:51)

I love that. Oh, I love that so much. You're so sweet. That's such a nice compliment. Thank you. Yeah, that's so nice.

Margaret Cho (36:57)

Just did Charlotte wear Tom Brown? Because I feel like that's so meta.

Cynthia Nixon (37:01)

We did towards like an undressed. Like that. Like, I have some coats. Like, like, we didn't do a head to toe type of a thing because it was almost so on the nose in a way.

Margaret Cho (37:11)

Right.

Cynthia Nixon (37:12)

But definitely, I don't think in the olden days we did. I'd have to think back.

Kristin Davis (37:16)

I mean, maybe.

Cynthia Nixon (37:17)

But, you know, it was always such an interesting push pull with Pat about Charlotte. Right. And sometimes, because I felt really like when I was watching these episodes, the first two of season two, there's a scene where I've gotten out my Burberry coat from the first season and I'm re wearing it and my hair is longer, which is what I wanted Charlotte's hair to look like the whole time. I finally achieved it at the beginning of season four. Like, that is the Upper east side hair.

Margaret Cho (37:45)

Yeah, for sure.

Cynthia Nixon (37:46)

But Pat never really liked anything to be kind of cut and dried. Right. She was always like twisting something or turning something or mixing something so that it's not 100% that thing. Right. Which I really respect now at the time. Sometimes a struggle. Right. Like, I would want it to be cut and dried because I felt like that's what Charlotte would want.

Margaret Cho (38:09)

Well, Charlotte was so tailored. Charlotte was just so, you know, she was really classic American style. She was really. I mean, she was that, you know, Carolyn Bessette feeling, you know, not as crazed and wild because. Because Carolyn has sort of like a wild horse quality.

Cynthia Nixon (38:29)

That's true.

Margaret Cho (38:30)

That's a little bit off. But Charlotte was like, the more, like, tailored version of that.

Cynthia Nixon (38:36)

Right, right, right.

Margaret Cho (38:37)

You know?

Cynthia Nixon (38:37)

Yes.

Margaret Cho (38:38)

The more sort of chaste and more refined.

Cynthia Nixon (38:43)

Yes.

Margaret Cho (38:44)

But still elegant, you know, and that's still like, Americana way.

Cynthia Nixon (38:47)

Definitely, definitely, definitely. Which I loved. I love that part. I mean, I think for Pat, too, she. That's kind of boring for her. Right. So she was like, let's twist it. Like, what can we do? You know? Yeah. Which I think is great. And that's the Tom Brown of it all, you know?

Margaret Cho (38:59)

Yeah.

Cynthia Nixon (38:59)

Right. It's always gonna happen.

Margaret Cho (39:00)

Like, I love your. Like, the long pony. Thank you. At the best, like, sleek long pony. Because it just. It was so elegant and just. It was really giving American royalty.

Cynthia Nixon (39:15)

So sweet. Thank you. I so did not feel that way at the time. You know, it's that kind of thing where you look back and you're like, oh, my God, I should have relaxed. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Margaret Cho (39:24)

Well, you had it. I mean, on the show, like, Charlotte. I think Charlotte had the best style, the best boyfriend, best husband. I think Trey was really the best man. Even though there was problems.

Cynthia Nixon (39:36)

Ooh.

Margaret Cho (39:38)

I would take Trey over Big. I would take.

Kristin Davis (39:42)

Oh, definitely.

Cynthia Nixon (39:43)

Steven. Definitely.

Margaret Cho (39:44)

I would take.

Cynthia Nixon (39:45)

No offense, but yes, Trey over Aiden.

Margaret Cho (39:47)

I would take Trey. I mean, there's no competition, really.

Cynthia Nixon (39:51)

I know what you mean. I know what you mean. It's interesting because there's a lot of the story that I don't remember because I remember Kyle more so than the fictional story. Right. So when I watch now, I'm like, what is going to happen? Because I don't really remember it all. And it's super interesting. I did not remember this at all that he. Is it this one or the one before where. Where I go to his. Oh, I think it might be the one before where I go. I go to his apartment, which is later. Turns into Charlotte's apartment. Right. But it has, like, horrible plaid wallpaper, which is kind of entertaining. And I. I've gone out with the girls, we've gone to a party, and I'm yakking my little head off to some unsuspecting woman about how she says, you know, where's your husband? Oh, she says, that's a beautiful ring. Where's your husband? So I'm. So then I give her a monologue about how we're working things out, and we have problems in the bedroom, et cetera. And I go off, right? And this woman's like, that's really not what I was looking for. And then after that, I realized, oh, this is weird. And we have to figure out what we're doing. So I go to his apartment. It's the nighttime. He gets up out of the bed. He comes. He's trying to have sex with me, But I'm like, no, no. I have a list of what we have to talk about.

Kristin Davis (40:59)

I have a list.

Cynthia Nixon (40:59)

I have a list like, poor Charlotte, you know?

Margaret Cho (41:02)

I know.

Cynthia Nixon (41:03)

But also, he is confusing. He is confusing.

Margaret Cho (41:06)

He's got some mommy issues. It's, like, very, you know, bunny's a nightmare. So it's a very complicated thing. I think that. But just the way that you look together, you and Kyle are so beautiful together. It's just so gorgeous.

Cynthia Nixon (41:24)

I know. I do love to look at us. I agree. I agree. It takes me to a happy place to. To look at us because I felt like he was like my brother in a weird way. And also, like.

Margaret Cho (41:35)

Like the Gemini of it all. Like, the, you know, total twinsies. Like, the male version of this beauty, the brunette beauty of the female, like, it's just perfect.

Cynthia Nixon (41:46)

It's true. It's true. But there is that. That very pesky problem of the sex, right? And it's so funny because she's so hopeful. And then, like, every time she tries, she comes with this list of things to talk to him about. And then he's trying to kiss her and, you know, take her to bed, and she's like, no, no, we've got to talk. And then he comes on her leg.

Margaret Cho (42:06)

It's such a bummer.

Cynthia Nixon (42:07)

I know. It's such a bummer. And then she's like, yeah, see, I've got to go. And you just really feel for her. And I don't remember this part, but, like, that is really a conundrum, right? Of, like, everything is wonderful and. Except for the thing that's really pretty super important.

Margaret Cho (42:24)

That's super. The most important thing, actually.

Cynthia Nixon (42:26)

I mean, I think so, too. I think so, too. And what I really think is that she doesn't have the skills to talk about it. And he won't talk about it.

Margaret Cho (42:35)

You can't.

Cynthia Nixon (42:36)

And that's a problem, right? That's a problem. You gotta be able to figure it out together, right? So true. Yes.

Margaret Cho (42:42)

So true.

Cynthia Nixon (42:43)

So it's interesting to look back on that. But let's talk about the episode overall, because I really, really, really Want to hear your thoughts on the other's storylines. So this is. So what do you make of. I mean, we've got so many things going on. But I like, I love your relationship with Carrie.

Kristin Davis (43:01)

Yeah.

Cynthia Nixon (43:01)

I mean, I had forgotten that there was kind of so much more in it than just the fashion show, you know? Yeah.

Margaret Cho (43:08)

You know, because there's history and there's just like a bossiness, but also, like, I'm trying to help her, but it's also my reputation on the line. So it's a very. It's a very complicated, layered thing. But yeah, it is that I love.

Cynthia Nixon (43:20)

Like, at one point you tell her to lighten up or something when she's like, oh, now I'm with the not fashion people, you know, the non models and Ed Koch. And like, you're like, just get over it. You know, like, lighten up. It's really. It's so good because she really does, like, trip out. You know what I mean? And I love Alan Cumming. Did you know him before?

Margaret Cho (43:39)

I knew him before and I am so, so I love him. I've always loved him. He's the best. And, you know, he's such a special guy. You know, I know him from fire. Hanging out on Fire Island. Yeah. You know, he's just so amazing. So. Yeah, that was really fun.

Cynthia Nixon (43:55)

Yeah. So much fun. So much fun. I've seen him since, too, but I don't think we.

Kristin Davis (43:59)

I don't even think we've talked about it.

Cynthia Nixon (44:01)

Like, you know when, like, you just know and you don't talk about it. And now I'm doing a podcast. I'm like, no, I need to talk about it. Yeah. Okay. So then we. I had also forgotten about how they switched the dress on her, and I had such flashbacks to uncomfortable photo shoots where, you know, they're all just trying to get you to do something and you're just like, no, that's not me. But then, of course, she looks amazing.

Kristin Davis (44:25)

Right.

Cynthia Nixon (44:26)

But then also, like, it's just you're trying to fit into this thing that you don't really feel like you fit into.

Margaret Cho (44:31)

Yeah. And you're just kind of being pushed along and this thing and. And you trying to please everybody, but also trying to make sure that you feel okay.

Cynthia Nixon (44:40)

Yeah.

Margaret Cho (44:41)

Very strange. It's really something that I think people can definitely relate to. Like, everybody's saying, oh, it looks great, it's great, but it's hard to believe them because you don't feel so great.

Cynthia Nixon (44:49)

Absolutely. It's really like for. For me, all the fashion Shoots. I just felt horrible, right? For years and years and years. Because also, I didn't. I just didn't know enough to know when I should stand up for myself or not know.

Margaret Cho (45:01)

You don't know. Like, when should I pick my battles here? Like, what is. What is worth fight? You never know.

Kristin Davis (45:07)

No, you don't.

Cynthia Nixon (45:08)

You really don't. But then when you look back on it, certainly in this situation, everyone's saying, you look. You look fantastic. You look fantastic. And she does. You know she does.

Kristin Davis (45:17)

Of course she does.

Cynthia Nixon (45:18)

Right. Which is great. And I had forgotten. I thought it was so sweet. How so she. They changed the dress and they show her the little jeweled underwear, and she thinks that's all they want her to wear. And so she's like, no, absolutely not.

Margaret Cho (45:29)

No.

Kristin Davis (45:29)

And then they go, oh, no.

Cynthia Nixon (45:30)

Ellen's like, oh, no, no, we have a coat. You know, and so they get the coat, and then they say that she needs big hair. And then they say that she needs big eyes to go with the big hair. And then she's like, I need Samantha because she'll tell me the truth. And Samantha goes back, and Carrie's so vulnerable, and she's like, get me another champagne. Which I guess also played into why she falls down, because obviously we know she can run down the street in those heels.

Kristin Davis (45:55)

Of course.

Cynthia Nixon (45:56)

Also, it's like a slick Runway.

Margaret Cho (45:58)

Yeah, yeah.

Kristin Davis (45:59)

You know.

Margaret Cho (46:00)

Yeah. And just eyes on you. And the, you know, the pressure of it, the moment, you know, it's hard. It's hard to remember things of how to walk.

Cynthia Nixon (46:08)

Oh, absolutely. Plus the model walk, like, oh, very stressful. Oh, my God. But I loved how when Samantha comes back, and of course, she looks amazing, but Carrie's got her hair down in her face. Do you remember this? And then she picks it up. It's just also charming. And she looks. Look so stressed, but it's really so relatable and believable, and I love it. And then Samantha's like, oh, no, it's good. And then Carrie feels better, which I really loved. I've forgotten all of that. I'd also totally forgotten that I bring Anthony to meet Stanford, which just is so adorable. And I'd also forgotten about this adorable scene at the beginning of the show when Carrie and Stanford are out. And he says, I know what I look like to her.

Margaret Cho (46:53)

And she's sad.

Cynthia Nixon (46:54)

I know. Like, it's just so, so sweet. Like, Willie delivers it, like, so beautifully and sweet.

Margaret Cho (47:04)

Beautiful. I really miss him. You know, he was my. We used to play. We used to do this thing called 25 words or less, which is this, like, really fun game show. And he was a formidable scene partner. We would, like, play, and sometimes we play against each other. Sometimes we play on a team together. And he was just a brilliant game player. Oh, so bright, beautiful guy.

Kristin Davis (47:26)

I know.

Margaret Cho (47:27)

It's so weird to think about. Yeah. Whenever I watch this show, I'm like, gosh, it's so strange.

Cynthia Nixon (47:35)

It's really horrible.

Margaret Cho (47:36)

That's not. Not there anymore. It's very.

Kristin Davis (47:39)

I know, I know. It is like, on the one hand, a joy.

Cynthia Nixon (47:43)

Right. Like, whenever he comes on the screen,

Margaret Cho (47:45)

he's so vivid, how wonderful, how full life and fun and so funny and.

Cynthia Nixon (47:51)

And so unusual. Like, he was such an unusual person, you know, like, there's no one like him. Which I think is why he worked so much and why he had friends everywhere, you know, could do everything. Yep.

Margaret Cho (48:02)

You know, he could be gay, he could be straight.

Cynthia Nixon (48:04)

Yeah.

Margaret Cho (48:05)

He could be young, he could be old. It was very weird.

Cynthia Nixon (48:08)

Definitely.

Kristin Davis (48:08)

He was very unique.

Margaret Cho (48:10)

Very much a shapeshifter and yeah, really an actor in every. In every way. Like, so different and so powerful. The great guy.

Cynthia Nixon (48:20)

It's so true. And whenever he comes up on screen, I'm like, you know, because he is just so vivid too. Like, he jumps out at you, you know, on the screen.

Kristin Davis (48:29)

And then to think that.

Cynthia Nixon (48:30)

That he's not here is obviously horrible,

Kristin Davis (48:33)

but it's amazing that he is on

Cynthia Nixon (48:35)

the screen, you know, like, it is, it does make you feel like, oh, yes, thank God. We, we. We worked really hard and that lives on and like created something. And you can feel his energy.

Margaret Cho (48:49)

That's so special.

Cynthia Nixon (48:50)

Right?

Kristin Davis (48:51)

It's amazing. It's amazing.

Cynthia Nixon (48:52)

And the sad thing, when I was watching this show, I realized that the photographer is played by James McCaffrey, who also played another character, a different character

Kristin Davis (49:02)

in the first season.

Cynthia Nixon (49:03)

He plays Big's kind of asshole friend. They go to this party and. And we run into all these other women who are like, you still have my passport to Big. And Carrie's like, how many women here have you dated? That's James McCaffrey, who I also remember sitting in the HBO waiting room. He was reading for Big. Oh, wow. Yes. And you can see he's like a good looking guy, you know, kind of similar age. He plays a photographer in this.

Kristin Davis (49:32)

And he sadly died in 2023.

Cynthia Nixon (49:35)

Because I was thinking we should get him on the show and discuss these different parts that he played. He died of cancer in 2023. It's so sad. But he's so great.

Margaret Cho (49:43)

Yeah.

Cynthia Nixon (49:44)

And he and Justin Theroux both played different characters, as the same actor obviously played different characters. So now we know that he gets to be in the Justin Theroux category of specialness.

Margaret Cho (49:57)

That's so great.

Cynthia Nixon (49:58)

Yeah, it is so great because obviously Michael's very controlling about casting. So if someone got to play two characters, they were like super big deal.

Margaret Cho (50:05)

That's a very big deal.

Cynthia Nixon (50:06)

Exactly.

Kristin Davis (50:13)

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I can wear it around the house

Kristin Davis (51:43)

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Cynthia Nixon (57:04)

So when I take Anthony to meet Stanford and Anthony is pretty mean, you know, and Stanford. But then Stanford also goes in the back and says, you know, why would Charlotte bring such a queen? It's all pretty entertaining.

Margaret Cho (57:19)

So funny, so perfect, so perfect.

Cynthia Nixon (57:22)

And also so I feel like these are things and maybe it's just my world, but I feel like all these things are much more discussed and known about like gay culture.

Margaret Cho (57:31)

Yes, yes.

Cynthia Nixon (57:32)

Like the stress to be attractive and the, you know, like kind of hierarchy or whatever within. Like Carrie doesn't carry, say something to him, like, I have bigger things to worry about than like level of queeness. The level of queeness in your world. Something like that. It's pretty funny and very fun that we got to kind of be open about those things back then and learn about it too.

Margaret Cho (57:56)

Like it's like everybody's learning about it.

Cynthia Nixon (57:59)

Yeah.

Margaret Cho (57:59)

And it's, it's, it's emerging into like heterosexual culture. Even though the show is really rooted in gay culture too.

Cynthia Nixon (58:07)

Yes.

Margaret Cho (58:08)

From us. From a heterosexual female perspective.

Cynthia Nixon (58:10)

Yes.

Margaret Cho (58:11)

Allowing, allowing it to emerge is really cool.

Cynthia Nixon (58:15)

I agree, I agree. It's fun. And, and you think back like, oh yeah, people didn't know this stuff back Then.

Margaret Cho (58:19)

Right.

Cynthia Nixon (58:20)

Totally not the wide culture, you know? Yeah. So I love that. Okay, so, Charlotte, this is when I have this crazy thing that I also forgot about where I say that my vagina is depressed in this whole episode. And I go to the. I go to the OB GYN and we talk about vulvodynia, which. I mean, is this real? I don't know.

Margaret Cho (58:42)

I think it is real. I think it is real. Yes.

Cynthia Nixon (58:44)

But it's not something that I hear about very often.

Margaret Cho (58:48)

No, no. But I think it exists. For sure.

Cynthia Nixon (58:50)

It must exist. I mean, they do all their research or whatever. I didn't look that up today because I'm. I was busy looking up James McCaffrey. But it.

Margaret Cho (58:57)

It's.

Cynthia Nixon (58:58)

I had vaguely remembered this because this is when I'm in that vague time where, like, I'm trying to make it work with Trey, but it's not really working. And you see that I have a cross on. At one point, that was Michael planning ahead that he knew that I was going to meet Harry and have to deal with whether I was going to convert or not. He was so smart. And I remember him saying to me, like, you have to wear the cross. And I was like. Like, calm down. Why?

Margaret Cho (59:22)

He knew he could see the future, and he knew exactly what was going to happen.

Cynthia Nixon (59:25)

Exactly. Exactly. And I love that about him. And I had also forgotten this whole thing. I'd forgotten Samantha getting photographed naked. I mean, it was great.

Kristin Davis (59:36)

She's so bold.

Cynthia Nixon (59:37)

And then I forgot about that. And. And then I love how, you know, she's like, I'm doing this for me. I'm doing this for me. But then everyone who.

Kristin Davis (59:44)

All.

Cynthia Nixon (59:44)

Every man who sees the picture, she's waiting, you know, like, you know, are they going to compliment me? And then, luckily, that delivery guy sees her on her own wall and compliments her, which is good. But then I had also forgotten that they tie together in the final coffee shop scene where they ask Charlotte if she's. Oh, she shows me a picture and wants to know if it's Artie. And I'm like, ah, it's a full frontal. And she goes, oh, I was just warming up. And then we discussed whether we've looked at ourselves. And I'm like, I don't want to look at it. And she makes me promise to go home and look at it. And this is when I fall off the bed looking at it, which I think is super adorable.

Margaret Cho (60:20)

So funny.

Cynthia Nixon (60:21)

I had thought that was, like, first season. You know what I mean? Because it is kind of like an innocent Charlotte.

Margaret Cho (60:27)

But Charlotte is very innocent for the entire series. Even afterwards in. And just like that, because it's like she just retains that. I think she retains her childlike wonder at the end things.

Cynthia Nixon (60:40)

That is true. That is true. Sometimes it's hard to be objective, but yes, I know what you're saying. Yes.

Margaret Cho (60:46)

Yeah.

Cynthia Nixon (60:46)

Which is a great, a great thing to retain in this crazy, crazy world for sure.

Margaret Cho (60:51)

It's beautiful. Yes.

Cynthia Nixon (60:53)

And I love that. And I, you know, I have a 14 year old daughter and not that I would tell her to go look at herself in a mirror because she'd be like mom and roll her eyes, but, you know, these are good things to be putting out in the world.

Margaret Cho (61:04)

Well, you should know what you look like. I mean, it's good to know at least just for your own reference.

Cynthia Nixon (61:09)

Absolutely. And because there's just such like stigma about all of it, you know, just to cut through the stigma and be like, yes, you should look at like.

Kristin Davis (61:18)

What do you mean?

Cynthia Nixon (61:19)

You don't want to look at yourself? Like it's a little bit crazy. But you know, this is the, the, you know, inherited patriarchy, basically, you know. Right. We got to break that down. So I had forgotten that this was now and it was so interesting how they came together and I love that this is the way like Samantha has so many ways that she's kind of trying to help the rest of them, like not worry about things so much and not hang on to the men. And you know, when we're talking about the soulmates, which is the episode right before and you know, she's like, ah, don't worry about that, you know, and that's a great voice to have. Right. But then also here for her, it's really about like self love and empowering each other woman and like, yes, this is what I look like and there's nothing to be ashamed of.

Margaret Cho (62:06)

Right.

Cynthia Nixon (62:06)

It's a great thing. It's beautiful. Incredibly beautiful. I'd fully forgotten about all of it. So it was very enjoyable. And it was so funny to see Tony Hale sitting there. It's so funny and good with literally almost no lines.

Margaret Cho (62:20)

Right. Because we didn't know he was going to be Tony Hale.

Cynthia Nixon (62:23)

Right. But he so clearly was Tony Hale. Right. Because he made you laugh with no lines. Like, it's impressive. It's so interesting. Actors are so interesting. And I love when we would have like, you know, like Bradley Cooper had one line in the first, first season and not one, maybe two, but they were great, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's interesting. But he, you know, he was like, I was a kid that was my, like, first or second job, but he was fantastic. Like, he just had something interesting, you know, it's so interesting to see that stuff, I think.

Kristin Davis (62:52)

And then Miranda.

Cynthia Nixon (62:53)

Oh, my God, Miranda's storyline really cracked me up. There are times when I'm watching, and I think that Michael Patrick, because he wrote and directed these, and sometimes the other writers are kind of writing our own experience of the success of the show into the show, right? And so in this episode, Miranda's at the gym being her regular just Miranda self, right? And this very handsome guy starts flirting with her. And he's so obviously trying to get her out to go out, and she's fully oblivious in a very Miranda type of a way. And then he fully has to say, like, oh, yeah, no, I'm. I want to take you out. So they go out and he's totally into her. She doesn't say much. And he says to her something like, you know, you hardly talk. Did I talk so much? Did I talk too much? Which I was like, wow, that's unlike Miranda that she wouldn't talk. And then the second time they go out, she's kind of feeling herself because this handsome guy thinks she's so sexy, which she said to Carrie, like, I. I don't. I don't think of myself this way. I think of myself as smart. And later on, I try to convince them that I'm sexy, but this guy just sees that I'm sexy across the gym. So then she's kind of playing a part a little bit, right? Like, oh, and, you know, I love my life. She's on the date with him. I love my life. And, you know, Cynthia is so funny when she does these things, right? I just love it. And he's just sitting there and he doesn't look that into her. And then she tries to kiss him, and he doesn't really do it. And then later on, in very Miranda style, she goes up to him at the gym and she says, hey, you know, it's just really weird that you didn't call me because you're really into me, but then you suddenly weren't, and I don't know why and it's fine, but I'm just wondering. And he goes, well, you just seem kind of full of yourself. And part of me wonders, like, I mean, the writers and the actors, we were in this experience together, right? So, like, we were doing this kind of unheard of unknown show in a bubble. And then it got more popular. More popular. Third season is when it kind of like, wow, Like. Like popping champagne. And now we're at fourth season. And so I'm wondering. It was often they were writing their own stories, and then occasionally I felt like Michael Patrick would put in a little, like. Like, personal dig at us. Right. Do you know what I mean? Like, upcoming. It hasn't happened yet. I had done a play off Broadway called the Exonerated, which was about real people who were put in. In.

Margaret Cho (65:13)

On.

Cynthia Nixon (65:13)

In prison for crimes they didn't commit on death row and then were exonerated and came out. So it was a super serious play. I'm downtown doing this play, and they send a New York Times photographer to take my picture. But it's downtown. It's not a photo shoot. It's like. It's a photo shoot, but it's, like, super down. Right. Like, yes, no hair and makeup, blah, blah, blah. So I'm nervous about it and excited that it's like a real. Like a real piece or whatever in the New York Times.

Margaret Cho (65:37)

Times.

Cynthia Nixon (65:38)

When it comes out, there's, like, a mark on my upper lip. Like an ink stain on my upper lip. And it's not just in one New York Times. It's in all of them. He wrote that into the show when Harry and Charlotte get their picture taken on the rocks for the love section, you know, for the engagement section. And I. And I say, like, I look like Hitler. I call Carrie and I'm like, I look like. That was based on something in life that happened to me.

Margaret Cho (66:02)

Right. So hilarious.

Cynthia Nixon (66:03)

Hilarious. Yeah, it was hilarious. Like, so Michael. Right. That he would do that. But usually it was the writers. But, like, this whole storyline, I felt for Miranda, I felt like it was kind of a little bit like, oh, you guys feel so successful now. Do you know what I mean? Maybe. I'm reading into that and it wasn't. I'm gonna ask him.

Margaret Cho (66:22)

Makes sense. Is because it's like the people. You're, like, going on people's assumptions of what you must be like. Because he was expecting. Experiencing such success.

Cynthia Nixon (66:30)

Yeah.

Margaret Cho (66:31)

Kind of dealing with the thought of what somebody might be thinking and then acting on it. It's very complicated.

Cynthia Nixon (66:39)

But I love that, isn't it? And then what they really like is that you weren't like that. Right. You know, but then, like, how do you. Like, how do you make sense of that?

Margaret Cho (66:49)

Funny.

Kristin Davis (66:49)

Yeah, it is, isn't it?

Cynthia Nixon (66:50)

It's interesting to think about. But when I do watch it, like, I had always thought that the first Season was. Was really bad. Like, a message that. In my mind, that's what I thought, because I think we felt a bit of a mess. Right. Like, we were. Nothing had aired. We didn't know what people were gonna say. But when I look back on it, it's so good. And all the pieces are there, you know?

Margaret Cho (67:09)

Well, it's all of you, because you guys have such great chemistry. You're all so funny. You know, it was such a unique take on sexuality and women and business and New York and independence, you know, it was so powerful. I think that's why it was such a phenomenon, because you were speaking to this idea that women's stories matter.

Kristin Davis (67:30)

Yeah.

Margaret Cho (67:31)

And this is. And without the idea of, like, children were maybe children coming.

Cynthia Nixon (67:37)

Right.

Margaret Cho (67:37)

But without the idea of, like, husbands, but husbands coming.

Cynthia Nixon (67:41)

Right.

Margaret Cho (67:41)

It's like, really the search for ourselves.

Cynthia Nixon (67:44)

Definitely the search for ourselves, as Michael Patrick, you know, puts it, starts putting in as we go. Right. Like, he deepens it. He deepens it. He deepens it. But even in the kind of rough first season, it's all there.

Margaret Cho (67:58)

Yeah.

Cynthia Nixon (67:58)

And it's a little bit messy, and I think that's what people love.

Margaret Cho (68:01)

Yes.

Cynthia Nixon (68:02)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I agree. I agree. Did we do what? I mean, anything else that you want to talk about from the memories?

Margaret Cho (68:10)

It's just really special. It's really special to have been a part of it, you know, being a part of such a huge phenomenon at the apex. This was really the apex of it, you know, and to just have a little bit of a couple of days to walk around and witness what you guys were doing and, you know, be able to participate. It was a real honor, and it was a really. One of the things that I treasure most in my career.

Cynthia Nixon (68:32)

I agree. I think you're just so fantastic, and I really wish we'd brought you back. And I really wish you'd been in and just like that. And I really wish you'd written our show.

Margaret Cho (68:40)

I know.

Cynthia Nixon (68:40)

It would have been so interesting.

Margaret Cho (68:42)

Let's do it all again.

Cynthia Nixon (68:43)

Totally. Let's do it all again. The nice thing, too, is, like, we're all still out there functioning. Right? Like, you just gotta keep going and find your way and get your voice out there. And I think it's so great you're touring still. It's kind of amazing. Yeah.

Margaret Cho (68:57)

Yeah. It's really fun.

Cynthia Nixon (68:58)

I'm so glad. I'm so glad. Thank you for joining us. Thank you.

Margaret Cho (69:02)

This was so fun.

Cynthia Nixon (69:03)

Is there anything else about the tour that we could suggest or mention or

Margaret Cho (69:07)

people can get tickets@margaretcho.com I'm going everywhere. It's called Cho Lagarchy, and it's all political comedy.

Kristin Davis (69:16)

I love it.

Margaret Cho (69:17)

Get into a new world and, you know, get out of this terrible situation that we're in. So I love that. It's a lot of fun.

Cynthia Nixon (69:25)

I love it that you have your own website and you're just doing it.

Margaret Cho (69:27)

Yes.

Cynthia Nixon (69:28)

Yeah. Good for you. Good for you.

Margaret Cho (69:30)

Yeah.

Cynthia Nixon (69:30)

Now, I have another question. I have no idea what you're gonna say, but.

Kristin Davis (69:34)

Margaret Cho, are you a Charlotte?

Margaret Cho (69:37)

I'm part Charlotte. I'm also. I'm part Miranda. I'm. I'm probably, like. I would say I'm a Charlotte with a Miranda rising.

Cynthia Nixon (69:48)

Love it.

Margaret Cho (69:49)

But my moon is in Samantha.

Cynthia Nixon (69:53)

Love it.

Margaret Cho (69:54)

And, yeah. And I have a lot of Carrie in my chart.

Cynthia Nixon (69:59)

Oh, yes. I think that's fantastic. That makes good sense. That makes good sense. I love to hear everybody's answers. They're always really interesting. Yeah, I think that makes sense if I think about you. Yes. I mean, because you do have kind of a, you know, like a sharp, sharp wit. Like a Miranda wit, you know, and. But then also, like, there's exploration in the way that Carrie does in your work, you know, for sure. Like, turning something over. Like, what do we think of this? Like. Yeah, yeah. And then I love if you have a. I think a Samantha Moon is about the best. That. That. Yeah, that's a good.

Margaret Cho (70:36)

Sensual. It's erotic. It's. It's. It can be very, like, you know, raunchy at times. So. For sure.

Cynthia Nixon (70:44)

Fantastic. Love it, love it, love it so much. All right, thank you so much for joining us. It was really, really fun.

Margaret Cho (70:51)

So fun.

Cynthia Nixon (70:52)

Have a great day.

Margaret Cho (70:53)

Thank you, too.

Kristin Davis (70:54)

Okay, thanks.

Cynthia Nixon (70:55)

Bye.

Margaret Cho (70:55)

Bye.

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