I'm Trey.... I'm Charlotte... with Drama Queen Sophia Bush (S3 E7 "Drama Queens)

Summary

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Are You A Charlotte?

Episode: "I'm Trey.... I'm Charlotte... with Drama Queen Sophia Bush" (S3 E7 “Drama Queens”)
Host: Kristin Davis
Guest: Sophia Bush
Date: December 8, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the enduring legacy of "Sex and the City," the significance of aging, female friendship, and personal evolution, as seen through the lens of both Kristin Davis (Charlotte York) and special guest Sophia Bush (One Tree Hill). They discuss shared experiences as stars of cultural-defining TV series, the phenomenon of rewatch podcasts, and the resonances between generations of women on and off the screen—using the Season 3 episode “Drama Queens” as a springboard for deeper commentary.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Magic of Podcasting and Rewatch Culture

• [03:04] Kristin welcomes Sophia, appreciating the casual, “rolling” style of podcasting that captures spontaneous, honest moments.

• [04:12-06:11] Sophia discusses starting the "Drama Queens" podcast (a One Tree Hill rewatch show) during the pandemic, emphasizing how it became a space for healing, friendship, and examining experiences from a new vantage.

  "The show wound up being such a kind of reclamation for us… we were so young on that show—and so isolated and so ill-equipped, I think."
  — Sophia Bush [05:00]

• [07:12] Sophia touches on fan connection, and how the love for the original shows brings actors back together to re-experience the story alongside viewers.

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Processing the Past in Real Time

• [07:47-08:22] Kristin shares the challenge of processing the end of "And Just Like That" and how podcasting offers a unique way to work through real emotional closures publicly:

  "I'm… trying to process the end of that chapter. And [my producer] said, wait, you’re trying to process in real time on the podcast? I said, yes, because you have to talk about it like you’re in it."
  — Kristin Davis [08:05]

• [08:35-08:49] Sophia reflects on the deep connection with characters, equating ‘Brooke Davis’ from One Tree Hill with a real family member, and shares she’s also a Sex and the City superfan.

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Navigating Criticism, the Internet, and Aging in Public

• [09:26-12:29] Both discuss the internet’s tendency toward negativity, and the nitpicking of women’s appearances, especially as they age.

• [10:25] Kristin questions how revisiting characters as they age can trigger discomfort for fans—and for themselves.

  "To see the characters age, I think really triggers people… younger people maybe. They don't necessarily want to confront that."
  — Kristin Davis [10:32]

• [11:35-12:16] Sophia points out the hypocrisy and gendered double-standards in public commentary:

  "It’s painful to watch the way exceptional women will just… be nitpicked and dragged and discussed like things, not people… If you do anything about aging, how dare you do something, you’re so vain. If you don’t do enough, why are you letting yourself go?"
  — Sophia Bush [11:35]

• [13:31-14:45] Kristin discloses her age (60), expressing pride in aging publicly and admiration for women like Demi Moore who “create their own rules.”

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The Evolution of Female Representation & Personal Identity

• [15:22-17:13] Sophia marvels at how much permission and opportunity has changed for women on TV, with successive generations "rewriting the rules."

• [17:44-18:20] Entering their 40s and beyond, both analyze the internal vs. external pressures to “achieve”—in relationships, parenthood, and more.

  "Did playing Charlotte, did working on Sex and the City help you confront some of those things?"
  — Sophia Bush [18:12]

• [18:20-20:03] Kristin reflects on coming of age in the South with intense social pressure to marry, her parents’ alternative influence, and actively resisting the standard path:

  "I was born in Boulder, Colorado. My dad taught at CU. It was hippie central… But [where I grew up], everybody was very, very focused…on getting married… Part of me was just like, absolutely not. I must get out of here… I wanted to travel. I wanted adventure."
  — Kristin Davis [19:08]

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Revisiting “Drama Queens” — The Charlotte/Trey Storyline

• [20:03-23:05] Kristin and Sophia dissect the episode's focus: Charlotte finally meets Trey and faces the “Marriage Incorporated” pressure. Kristin recalls the real-life inspiration for Charlotte’s attitudes, the cultural context, and her role as the voice of traditional expectations.

  “My job was to be this other voice… I knew from Michael Patrick, the goal was that yes, she was going to get what she wanted—or what she thought she wanted. And it wasn’t gonna really make her happy.”
  — Kristin Davis [21:50]

• [23:15-24:50] Sophia emphasizes how rewatching as an adult reveals deeper layers to the characters and the ways cultural pressures about relationships and “repair” factor into storylines.

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Shifting Conversations: Then and Now

• [32:05-35:41] They note how conversations—themes of trauma, intimacy, and women’s needs—have deepened over time. Kristin admits that in the original series, “trauma” and emotional backstory were rarely named, as the pace of TV required rapid movement.

  "I don’t think we literally ever say the word trauma on our show."
  — Kristin Davis [33:24]

• [35:53-39:34] Both discuss how life experience changes perspective, highlighting the absurdity of cultural expectations (e.g., marriage by 25), the evolving nature of ambition (now “success by 35”), and why life is never really “over” at a milestone.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Aging and Freedom

• [15:28] Sophia: "We’re so lucky to be alive… Women were put into a box of being, quote, elderly by the time they were in their mid-40s. Like, I don’t feel elderly. I still feel like I’m 27."

• [16:35] Sophia: "What millennial, or I guess what Gen Z women are going through now is so, like, leaps and bounds above… All the things we really had, we were kind of breaking the rules. Now they’re rewriting them."

On Character vs. Actor

• [18:20] Kristin: "All four of us are very different [from our characters], though no one believes us… But I think for us, the interesting thing was…our writers know us so well…that part also bled the lines a lot."

On Female Friendship

• [46:31] Kristin: "I think the freedom that they all feel with each other, meaning the four of us…how well they know each other, how much they love each other and the room they have for each other to be their full selves."

On Carrie and Aidan

• [36:20] Sophia: "John Corbett, good God that man is charming…And the way he just laughs at her, he is so… tenderly amused by her… It’s the kind of crazy I like."

• [37:32] Sophia: "Aiden is both figuratively and physically… a big container for her feelings, which is amazing."

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Episode Structure & Important Timestamps

• [03:04–06:11] Podcasting magic, the making of "Drama Queens"
• [07:47–09:13] Processing the past and the power of fan culture
• [09:26–14:45] The internet’s negativity, beauty standards, and living out loud as women
• [15:22–17:13] Generational change and shifting definitions of womanhood
• [17:44–20:03] Personal vs. societal expectations for women
• [20:03–23:05] Dissecting the Charlotte/Trey/Michael Patrick arc
• [32:05–35:41] Evolving conversations about intimacy, trauma, and happiness
• [36:02–37:44] Carrie and Aidan’s evolving intimacy; differences from Mr. Big
• [39:34–41:18] The myth of "life milestones" and continuing reinvention
• [41:18–44:17] Opera scene as a cultural marker; New York vs. not-New York
• [46:26–47:00] The power of female friendship and space for authenticity

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Tone and Style

The conversation is candid, warm, and humorous, marked by mutual respect and vulnerability. Both speakers honor the value of reflection, the passage of time, and the power of representing real women’s lives. They swing between thoughtful analysis and playful banter, reflecting the irreverent yet earnest DNA of Sex and the City itself.

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For Listeners New to the Episode

If you’ve never listened to “Are You a Charlotte?”, this episode is a standout for its rich, genuine discussion about growing up onscreen, fan culture, and the ongoing adventure of womanhood. Whether you’re a diehard fan or a newcomer to the SATC universe, you’ll come away with new insight into how these stories have shaped, and continue to shape, conversations about aging, identity, and friendship.

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Next Episode

Kristin hints at a continuation—so stay tuned for “part two” with Sophia Bush for more discussion on "Drama Queens," intimacy, and Sex and the City revelations.

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Transcript

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[Kristin Davis]

Okay, only 10 more presents to wrap. You're almost at the finish line. But first.

There the last one.

Enjoy a Coca Cola for a pause that refreshes.

Hi, I'm Kristen Davis and I want to know, are you a Charlotte?

I can talk to you about this because you have a podcast, but you actually have two that you just finished. We'll get to that in a second. Sophia Bush is here. You guys. This is how we Rol. Okay, just ease on in. I saw this post one time. Or the. Like, a whole thing from this lady on Instagram who, I don't know, talking about how on Amy Poehler's podcast, everyone's like, what do you mean you're rolling? And she thought that was fake or something, or weird. And why didn't they know if they'd been in the green room? And I'm like, oh, honey, we don't have green rooms.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

No.

[Sophia Bush]

Right?

[Audiobook Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

And we're used to film where there's, like, rolling and there's, you know, you know, board.

[Sophia Bush]

What do you call it? The clapping.

[Kristin Davis]

Like, for us, like, we're just sitting in a chair and we're chatting and we're catching up, we're talking about our kids and whatever. And then our very smart producers are just rolling because they're so, so smart. That's the way podcasts are. And we love it.

[Sophia Bush]

I love it.

[Kristin Davis]

Right? Because it's so easy.

[Sophia Bush]

You also catch a little bit of magic that way, I find.

[Kristin Davis]

I agree. I agree. That's why they're so smart to just do it and not wait for anybody to dart, you know, I like Easton.

[Sophia Bush]

Just rubbing his palms together, like, totally, totally.

[Kristin Davis]

So you, I love. I want to talk just briefly about drama Queens. So you did this podcast, Drama Queens, about One Tree Hill, the show that you were on, that was massive, massive, massive. I've never seen it, but when I was preparing to do Are you a Charlotte? They said to listen to drama queens, so I listened to Drama Queens. Of course, not understanding what you guys were talking about, but really enjoying that there were three of you, and you had such great camaraderie, and you got to kind of rehash memories as well as talking about the plot, like, and how smart were you to do this when you started it?

[Sophia Bush]

I mean, thank you. Honestly. I think because I had started my ship, my solo show, work in progress, and loved it so much when, honestly, it was a pandemic project for us drama girls. Smart, though, you know, everything shut down. I was preparing to shoot a show in Canada. We all got sent. I remember thinking, oh, yeah, we'll go back to work in two weeks. I mean, crazy. And then we were in lockdown, and I was FaceTiming with my girlfriends from the show. And one night, you know, we were all kind of like, well, it's 8 o' clock on the East Coast, 5 o' clock out here. You know, we cracked bottles of wine together, and we're like, everybody's making dinner and we're talking. And I was like, wait a second.

This is a show smart. This is something I think people would love. And when I pitched the idea first to Hillary and then she and I called Joy, we were kind of not sure what it would be. There weren't really rewatch shows yet. I think maybe Office Ladies was out, and that might have been the only one at that point. And we didn't really know what it was gonna be. But the show wound up being such a kind of reclamation for us. And, you know, not only were we so. God, we were so young on that show and so isolated and so ill equipped, I think.

[Kristin Davis]

You know, I mean, aren't we all. Yeah. We haven't been through all the therapy.

[Sophia Bush]

We'Ve been through now. I don't think we were capable of having certain conversations or even figuring out, you know, the line between personal and professional, which is so hard, muddy when you're on location especially.

[Kristin Davis]

Of course. And you guys were in North Carolina? Yeah, yeah, I'm from South Carolina. I've filmed in Wilmington.

[Sophia Bush]

Wilmington's different world.

[Kristin Davis]

It is, but it's lovely and different.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah, very different. And I think for us, especially complicated because we were in this sort of no man's land. We were just older than all the college kids at uncw.

[Kristin Davis]

Wow.

[Sophia Bush]

But so much younger than all the, like, golf dads who lived there.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah, that's really young.

[Sophia Bush]

So it was like a weird. It was just a weird. We were very isolated. And the show, I think, had great high highs and some low lows, and we were just able to process together in a way that was really cool.

[Kristin Davis]

Which is so amazing and so beloved by fans. What a gift to the fans.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah, the fans really. Their love of the show. And I imagine you feel this with Sex and the City because it also is an evergreen show. It was really their love of the show that sort of forced us back, you know, it brought us home. We kept being invited back to Wilmington. We kept being asked about it. And I think we finally hit a point where we thought we want to experience it like they did. Like, what are all these people so into?

[Podcast Host]

That's fun.

[Kristin Davis]

I like it.

[Sophia Bush]

We got to have it.

[Kristin Davis]

Totally. I think that's great. And I think for me, you know, when I do have obviously different people from the show on, it's really fun, of course, to have them and really easy and different and hard. Like, I was thinking about, I had seen Michael Patrick since we wrapped and just like that, and decided not to go on. And I said, you know, I'm still trying to process the end of that chapter. And he said, wait, you're trying to process in real time on the podcast? I said, yes, because I'm. You have to talk about it like you're in it. And even though I'm talking about Sex in the City specifically, to me, it's always one thing.

[Sophia Bush]

Well, it's a. It's a universe.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And I think, you know the interesting thing, because we get asked about this a lot, even in terms of One Tree Hill, like, what would they be doing now? Would you ever go back?

[Kristin Davis]

You know, they love to ask us that.

[Sophia Bush]

We've investigated those things. And when you play someone for as long as I played Brooke Davis or you played Charlotte York, like, they are a real person to you. You know, Brooke feels like a cousin of mine or a sister almost.

[Kristin Davis]

Put. Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And I do have all sorts of thoughts about her life and her growth and her evolution, of course. And it. As a fan of your show, you know, I always say to people, they're like, do you have a One Tree Hill? I'm like, yeah. Sex and the City was my One Tree Hill.

[Ebay Advertiser]

Oh.

[Sophia Bush]

Like, it's my show.

[Kristin Davis]

That's so nice.

[Sophia Bush]

Thank you. And as a viewer, I have loved revisiting these people with all of you.

[Kristin Davis]

Oh, good. But it's like, I guess not everyone feels that way.

[Sophia Bush]

Well, people listen. People these days just want to hate everything so they don't have to admit how much they, like, I don't know, hate their own lives. So it's like, here we are.

[Kristin Davis]

Right?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Right.

[Sophia Bush]

The Internet is just such a cesspool.

[Kristin Davis]

But I wanna ask you another question, though, about this, because I do. There's definitely, like, different baskets. Right. Like, I have a basket of like, yes, our world is a mess. Right. And so people are. It's much safer to obsess about. For instance, I had Bridget Monahan, who Moynihan, who plays Natasha on. And we're both wearing our wire rim glasses. And this one lady went on there and commented, like, I don't care for the wire rim glasses. And I was like, wow. O. This is what you wanna comment on? Like, we talked about so many interesting things, but I do think it's much easier to do that than to think about our world and the crazy, horrible things happening in our world. Right.

[Sophia Bush]

I totally agree.

[Kristin Davis]

It's really hard to tackle that. So I get it. I get that, like, we're putting things out there and people are gonna have their feelings and they might nitpick, and I get that. So that's one basket, but then I think a different basket. And this is what I'm super curious about, your feelings on watching us. But also, if you think about revisiting Montre Hill, to see the characters age, I think really triggers people.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

Like they don't really want sometimes to see us age. I guess it depends on the age of the fan, right?

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

So some fans, they. Because then also the way HBO is hbo, Max, whatever I'm supposed to call it, it feeds right from. And just like that into the old Sex and the City. So it's like our younger selves are smack dab against our, you know, current selves. Right. And that's upsetting for some people, I guess younger people maybe. Do you know what I mean? They don't necessarily want to confront that.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah. What do you think of that?

[Kristin Davis]

I know it is weird.

[Sophia Bush]

You know.

I'm sure there's been great discourse about it. I'm. I'm not chronically online enough.

[Kristin Davis]

Oh, I don't think there's great discourse about it.

[Sophia Bush]

Please. You know, I guess for me, I'm like, I'm sure some amazing person on TikTok has like gone through the social science studies of this or something. But I will say, as someone who is both a fan and in the ways we all do know we know each other.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

As a woman, it's been like. So.

I don't want to. I don't want to be over dramatic or melodramatic.

[Kristin Davis]

But.

[Sophia Bush]

But I mean it. It's painful to watch the way exceptional women will just, to your point, be nitpicked and dragged and discussed like things, not people.

[Kristin Davis]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

And, you know, I caught myself rolling my eyes when you, you know, you said the thing about the woman who made the comment about the wire rim glasses. On the one hand I'm like, keep it to yourself.

[Kristin Davis]

Right.

[Sophia Bush]

Like, just shut the up. And then on the other hand, I'm like, you know, I do understand that people are. Everyone's so stressed and so anxious and so worried and things are really crazy. It's a crazy time to be on the earth. And so I get that the pressure valve gets released.

[Kristin Davis]

Exactly.

[Sophia Bush]

I think often in the wrong directions.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

But I think the larger discourse. How dare you age? If you do anything about aging, how dare you do something. You're so vain.

[Podcast Host]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

If. If you, if you don't do enough, why are you letting yourself go if they decide you've done too much?

[Kristin Davis]

Oh, yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Don't you have any friends who said stop totally.

[Kristin Davis]

If you like, what Were you thinking, oh, my God, on and on. I know.

[Sophia Bush]

And. And I. I just am like, we're still here. Like, nobody's talking. Nobody's talking about that with any of the dudes. Like, are people picking Brad Pitt's face apart? I don't know.

[Kristin Davis]

I think they are.

[Sophia Bush]

Well, yeah. Recently, I do see men being pulled into the.

[Kristin Davis]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

The work.

[Kristin Davis]

It's now a little bit going towards them. And sometimes I feel glad about it. Sometimes I also feel sad about it. You know what I'm saying? Like, it is a mixed. But I also feel. I feel. And that's a different. We're in a different basket now. This is how I separate it in my mind when I'm thinking about it, and it helps me to dissect it, you know, to dissect, like, what is actually driving these conversations.

[Sophia Bush]

Okay.

[Kristin Davis]

And in terms of the aging situation, my feeling is that because I'm significantly older than you. Right. So, like, we have been. Oh, yeah. Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

Okay.

[Kristin Davis]

Definitely. I'm 60 years old, Sophia.

[Ryan Seacrest]

I am.

[Sophia Bush]

You hot nuts.

[Kristin Davis]

Right? Thank you. I love it. I love it. To get the good compliments. Thank you so much. I'll take it. I'll take it. I'll take it.

[Sophia Bush]

I'm like. I'm like. Well, I do feel thrilled to be alive in this moment where women are just not giving up. Right.

[Kristin Davis]

But it is this struggle. It is the struggle. Like, you look at Demi Moore. I mean, what a incredible situation. Like, if you. You listen to her talk and she says, I'm creating my own rules. Yes, Demi, create your own rules. We do not have to live by other people's rules. We don't. We don't. And I think we just need to say this to each other. That doesn't mean that I'm gonna do everything that Demi is doing or whatever it is or not. I'm also not gonna judge her. She is creating her own existence. She is living by her own rules. She is doing what she. She wants. More power to her. I love it so much, and I think it's so powerful. Like, whenever I see her talking about it, I'm like, oh, God, it's just so refreshing. Because that's what you need to remember. Like, we can create our own existence. We can say to ourselves, you know what? I'm not gonna let this cultural morass of insanity about aging get inside me any more than it already is. Right. It's already there. But I can live and find joy in what I find. And I've got little K. And they keep me Young, and I'm running around with them. And, you know, I don't understand what I'm doing in personal relationships, but I.

[Sophia Bush]

Kind of never have.

[Kristin Davis]

You know what I'm saying?

[Sophia Bush]

What would be different about that?

[Old Navy Advertiser]

Right.

[Sophia Bush]

We have so much to talk about on and off this podcast.

[Kristin Davis]

Totally, totally, totally.

[Sophia Bush]

I have a question about that.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Because I think there's really something elemental about.

Aging, and some of my buckets are what a privilege it is to age.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

We're so lucky to be alive.

[Kristin Davis]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

I'm also, to this point, I'm thrilled to be alive. At a time where women are rewriting the rules, where you are the picture of 60. We're not told that we have to look like the Golden Girls by the time we're 45. And by the way, no Shade, one of my favorite shows of all time, of course, but women were put into a box of being, quote, elderly.

[Kristin Davis]

Right.

[Sophia Bush]

By the time they were in their mid-40s. Like, I don't feel elderly. I. I still feel like I'm 27.

[Kristin Davis]

And you look like you're 27.

[Sophia Bush]

Well, thank you. I'm smarter than I was at 27, for sure.

[Kristin Davis]

But me too.

[Sophia Bush]

You know, I. I think about that privilege. I think about the way we're critiqued. I think about the way we are often and sort of historically categorically discarded. And then I also think about this sort of subconscious aspect of aging and especially over the generation that we kind of came of age, if you will, from your show, really setting the tone into the Dawson's Creek, into my show.

The conversations are changing. What millennial, or I guess what Gen Z women are going through now is so, like, leaps and bounds above sort of permission, opportunity. All the things we really had, we were, we were kind of breaking the rules. Now they're rewriting them, most definitely. And I think about watching the episode of your show I watched to prep for today, thinking about my own. Thinking about the conversations we had off camera. There is such pressure to achieve certain things by a certain time.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

When you just said, like, I, you know, I don't know what I'm doing in personal relationships, I feel like I did that definition of insanity thing over and over and over again, expecting a different for so long until I finally was like, well, I have no idea what I'm doing. And then I just decided to leave the rat race altogether. But I really had to self examine the pressure I put on myself. That was more powerful than I realized. Like, I couldn't see it until it was in hindsight that's why hindsight's 20 20, right?

[Kristin Davis]

For sure. Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

About what? Approaching 40 and knowing I wanted to be a parent and what all of these things meant and perhaps things I ignored because of so much conditioning. And it's like, I don't know. You've played a character who was so pressured like that. Yes. You've talked about these things. You've broken your own mold. You adopted your two beautiful kids. You set your own rules.

[Kristin Davis]

I did.

[Sophia Bush]

Like, did playing Charlotte, did working on Sex and the City help you confront some of those things?

[Kristin Davis]

You know, the interesting thing for me, and obviously all four of us are very different. We're very different from our characters, though no one believes us, though. We all have really similarities, too, obviously, because you can't play someone that long without, like, the kind of morpher.

[Sophia Bush]

Eventually.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah. But I mean. Yeah, it's. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting also. I think for us, the interesting thing was to having our writers know us so well and be so close to us and really specifically write for us.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

That part also bled the lines a lot. But I think for me, my kind of, like, origin story of the whole. My idea of relationships. Kristen, I'm talking about. I grew up in the south, where everybody was very, very focused, especially because, you know, the generation that I was in very focused on getting married. You were supposed to get married. If young women went to college, they were supposed to be.

[Sophia Bush]

Mrs.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yes.

[Kristin Davis]

You know what I'm saying? So, you know, that's what I was surrounded by. My parents were not that way. My parents were more like hippies. They're now reformed. You know what I'm saying? You know how it goes. But, like, I was born in Boulder, Colorado. My dad taught at CU. It was hippie central. They, like, I had Ms. Magazine was on our table, you know, at home. Right. So they were not of that. But that's what I was surrounded by at school and growing up, and those were my best friends. They were. That's what they were into. But part of me was just like, absolutely not. I must get out of here. I want to be an actress. I want to go to New York. That is all that mattered to me. And I would say when I was young, I'm never getting married. I'm never getting married. And I didn't.

[Sophia Bush]

Which I think is really funny.

[Kristin Davis]

And I'm so fine with that. Do you know what I mean? But, like, I didn't ever buy in because to me, the conditioning seemed so intense.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

I just thought, do all those people Actually want that. Have they even thought about what they want or what the choices are or what the options are? Because to me, it seemed like the world was completely open and you could do whatever you wanted. I wanted to travel. I wanted to have adventure. I wanted to act. Obviously, all of us who want to act were a little bit, you know, to the side anyway. Cause it's a strange thing to do, right? Totally insane. But a wonderful. Totally insane and wonderful, like, magical exploration. You know, it's like a lifelong exploration, which is one of the things that I love the most about it. Let's talk about. So back to. You asked me about the marriage thing and everything. And the thing that I love. And when we're. This part of the show, this episode is called Drama Queens. And it's when Charlotte meets Trey, which is so exciting, finally. But it's also when she has this nightmare book, Marriage Incorporated. And so, for me, the thing that I. It's fun to rewatch it because what I remember of it, because I'm really drawing on the people I grew up with, right? And the kind of the vibe of everyone has to get married and you're under this pressure to do it by, you know, 25 or whatever. To have met the person. I mean, it was hardcore pressure. And to have it be so perfect and beautiful. And he's supposed to be perfect and beautiful, and then wedding and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. All the things that Charlotte was really important to her. That's what I drew on, was what I had seen there.

What I thought or what I felt. But I certainly knew about it. But they would come up with new ways for me to express it. And I remember this book, and I would just be like, oh, my gosh. And often I would have to have, like, a page because obviously the others don't agree with me, right? So I would have my didactic Charlotte, like, I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna do that. And they would all roll their eyes, and I would just be like, ugh.

[Sophia Bush]

You know?

[Kristin Davis]

But I knew that was my job, right? My job was to be this other voice. And then what I loved, because I knew from Michael Patrick, the goal was that, yes, she was going to get what she wanted or what she thought she wanted. And it wasn't gonna really make her happy. And because I knew that was the goal, it really helped me. And that got formulated before this season. Or I should say, really.

Like rarefied or refined, I guess, because it was kind of there before. But they never said to me, we didn't know for sure the Trey plan. Right. So, like, early I would have, like, speeches. I think I have a. I get the rules book out. Remember the rules, like, all the nightmare things. And I would just be like, oh, my God, this is so hard. But I know that people out there have been conditioned in the same way.

[Sophia Bush]

Yes.

[Kristin Davis]

And I want to represent them or whatever, and I would try my best. But what I love here is that we have so many, so many holes in this episode. Drama queens and so many ways of looking at intimacy and relationships and what do we really want versus what are we told we should want? And that is what I think our show did so well, and I knew it at the time, but to be able to look back on it and then also to have it still resonate now, it's kind of amazing.

[Sophia Bush]

It's also really interesting. It's one of those shows. And we've had this experience rewatching ours.

The age you watch it at, you see something new for sure. And based on your life experience, you see something new. And something that I realized watching this episode back, seeing Charlotte's goal, it is. It's exactly what you're talking about. It's the goal she has been raised with. It is a goal that for her is very overt. It is a goal that I know, at least for myself, was more subconscious and much more. When I look back and really unpack it, bless my wonderful therapist.

I can really see that. So much of it was also about repair. And it struck me watching the Carrie and Aiden storyline in this portion of the show because I didn't identify when I was watching the show when it was airing and I was in college and my college best friend Brenna and I would watch every weekend. It was our thing. I didn't identify that Carrie was having her trauma triggered by a good man, by a lack of a problem, by being chosen. Suddenly, it's like everything goes haywire. It feels backwards to your reality. And I was like, oh, that's a woman who has some real relationship trauma and I wonder what her childhood trauma is. And I'm so. And I was like, oh, man. Like, I'm really. I got some lessons in. In. In.

That I see all of this in a different way and is. It's still really, really relevant as much as you go like, oi the book or whatever.

[Kristin Davis]

Right.

[Sophia Bush]

You know.

[Kristin Davis]

Right, right, right. It's still. I agree when I watched this one, because. Okay, so I don't think I ever said this is called Drama Queens, which is also why it's so funny that Sofia is here.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I know.

[Kristin Davis]

I love it because that's her podcast or her other podcast. Work in progress. Still functioning, still going, which is wonderful.

[Sophia Bush]

Yes. Drama Queens is wrapped.

[Kristin Davis]

Drama Queens is wrapped. Which is crazy. I'm glad you got to do it.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah, we' some supplemental goodies for people.

[Kristin Davis]

Oh, that's fun.

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[Kristin Davis]

That's fun.

[Sophia Bush]

Yes.

[Kristin Davis]

Everyone will be happy to hear that. So this episode, this is so crazy. I love to read the date. The air date was July 23, 2000. The year 2000. You guys, so funny. Doesn't that sound like a science fiction weird thing? Like, we're in 2025 and this was the year two. Like, what? What?

[Sophia Bush]

Yes.

[Kristin Davis]

What is happening? It's insane.

[Sophia Bush]

Heading off to college.

[Kristin Davis]

Adorable. Oh, my God. So cute. So we were working our little butts off in Manhattan. So tired by this point, because this would have been, like, halfway. This is 307. I think we did a lot. Maybe we did 18 back in the olden days where we did a lot of episodes, I'm sure you remember. And it was directed by the wonderful Alison Anders. Did you ever meet Alison? Such a great director. She was an indie film director. We went through quite a. In the beginning, we tried to get female indie film directors, and sometimes it went great, and sometimes maybe not so perfectly or whatever. And also male indie film directors, also very interesting. But Alison just sweetest, sweetest. So poetry positive. And she would just be like, baby, that was good. Let's just do it again. You're like, okay. You know, super easy. She created just so much comfort, you know, on the set, which was nice. And written by Darren Starr, which also surprised me, because by then I thought he was already kind of, like, off and doing his next thing. Cause that's what he does, you know, he creates and moves on. Creates and moves on, basically. But here he is writing a really, really excellent episode right smack in the middle of the third season, which. The third season is my favorite season. I don't know why, but, like, for me, this is when everything gels.

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

You know, all of the connections of the storylines, you know, also the locations. And we have directors who are, like, amping it up visually. Like, all the things it really feels.

[Sophia Bush]

Like when you think about Sex and the City. And then you go back and you watch. Sometimes you watch the first season and you're like, wait, what show is this? It's like season three.

[Kristin Davis]

I know.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

It's really your show.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I mean, season one is fascinating.

[Sophia Bush]

It's amazing.

[Kristin Davis]

But it's. I had remembered it as being horrible, but when I rewatched I was like, no, it was great. It was just.

[Sophia Bush]

Just different really.

[Kristin Davis]

Like it would go one way and then it would go the other way and then like it's so dark you can't even see us sometimes. You know what I'm saying? Like it's physically dark, you know? Yes. Which is also very interesting.

[Sophia Bush]

Crazy.

[Kristin Davis]

Very crazy. It was 1998 or 9, right.

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[Kristin Davis]

Let's talk about the episode for a second. Okay, so the thing that I love because I had. I watched at the time. And so now I'm rewatching for the first time, like through life. People would always say, like, oh, don't you watch? I mean, if. If I walk by a tv, I'm like, oh, there we are.

[Sophia Bush]

You know?

[Kristin Davis]

But I would keep moving because I didn't want to be stuck in the past. Right. But that's what's kind of interesting about really. Okay. Intentionally. Let's look at it. Yes, I like it. Like, it's amazing. And I can kind of get what the fans got, right? Yeah, maybe not 100%. Cause I also remember what was going on on the set that day or whatever was going on with me or, you know what I'm trying to say. You have other memories in terms of certainly the other storylines. Like when I watch Aiden and Carrie here, I'm so fascinated And I have so many thoughts. I don't think I had all these thoughts back then. I think I was just focused on myself and what I was doing and so excited that Trey's finally coming, obviously. But like the whole entire thing about intimacy. And also, if you look at Steven Miranda also, they're having such an interesting conversation about what is true intimacy. Do we actually want it? Are we ready for it? These are different questions, right? And we ask them. But we aren't gonna go into the backstory like you're saying about trauma. I don't think we literally ever say the word trauma on our show.

[Sophia Bush]

No, it wasn't part of the cultural conversation.

[Kristin Davis]

It definitely wasn't at the time. And I think we. I'm kind of wanting to have another one of our writers on again. Cause I had Michael on in the beginning and I've had Jenny and Cindy on who are our two female writers, Which I think that's all the writers we have at this point. Darren, Michael, Jenny, Cindy. But I wonder, like, when we're talking about these intimacy type storylines, I wonder how much they toyed with thinking about how we got here or the past. Because there was a concerted effort not to do that. Because everything has to move so quickly. Like, all these things happen in 23 minutes, right? It's gotta like, bam, bam, bam. So. So we have to have our.

Down low and we have to have her like our coffee shop, right? Where we're all this and that and this and that and this and that. And then we have to have Carrie writing, which is her much more introspective. I wonder, you know, when she does say some really, really deep and interesting things. But the thing that I love here is that. So Carrie's with Aiden. Aiden is amazing. He is, in her words, too good to be true. She doesn't know if this is actually what she wants. And this is after two years, you know, struggling to get big, to commit and. Or even talk to her about his feelings. Right now she has this amazing guy who wants her to meet his parents. She does not want to. I don't even remember all of this at all. Like, when I rewatched it, I don't remember it one little bit. And I think it's super interesting. But I also think there's a part of it because Aiden is so not New York. There's a part of it where it's also like, Carrie is so New York.

[Old Navy Advertiser]

Right.

[Kristin Davis]

It's not really a common thing. Like, I don't know if you remember in second season she follows Big one day, she doesn't know where, and he's at church with his mom. She's never met his mom. Then she's hurt that he doesn't want her to meet his mom. And he's like, this is something I do with my mom. I go to church. So then she takes Miranda and they drop the hymn book down the balcony. It's like a whole drama, Right? But also, like, that's unusual. I never remember.

Meeting any. I'm trying to think now, like, you just didn't meet people's parents in New York. It wasn't a thing really so much. Do you know what I'm saying? Unless you were serious and then you traveled to meet them. You traveled to the. To where they were from.

[Sophia Bush]

To wherever they were from.

[Kristin Davis]

Exactly. So I do think there's a bit of, like, Aiden's not New York, which is also why he's interesting and different. Big's very New York, obviously, so there's a kind of a bit of that going on. But they don't really say that, which I think is also interesting. But Carrie's obviously very New York. And that's why I think part of her going, like, well, I don't even know if I want to meet his parents. Which also, like, he puts up with that.

[Sophia Bush]

I know.

[Kristin Davis]

It's interesting.

[Sophia Bush]

There's a really sweet moment when they're walking down the sidewalk together and she goes. You know, it's the whole thing of, like, why aren't you married? Why are you still single? What's wrong with you? Will your parents be able to tell me what's wrong with you and John Corbett? Good God, that man is charming.

[Kristin Davis]

I know.

[Sophia Bush]

And the way he just laughs at her. He is so. And it's not crass, it's not cruel. He's very tenderly amused by her.

[Fossil Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And. And he just. He's like, you're crazy.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

And what he doesn't say, but you see on his face is it's the kind of crazy I like.

[Kristin Davis]

Definitely. That's so true.

[Sophia Bush]

It's such a true moment. And they did such a great job as actors together.

[Kristin Davis]

Oh, yeah. He's incredible.

[Sophia Bush]

And there's something wonderful, I think. And to me, it does speak to intimacy when someone who really loves you is watching you spin about something.

[Kristin Davis]

Definitely.

[Sophia Bush]

And also knows it's not about them at all.

[Kristin Davis]

Oh, it's so amazing.

[Sophia Bush]

You wanna. You gonna spin? Okay, I'll watch.

[Kristin Davis]

Definitely. Definitely. And not get caught up. Right. I agree. I agree. And very different, obviously, than her dynamic with Big, where she spins and he kind of judges. Or I feel like it even makes him more remote.

[Sophia Bush]

Yes.

[Kristin Davis]

Yes. Which is.

[Fossil Advertiser]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

Anytime she has human emotion that is imperfect, he can't handle it.

[Kristin Davis]

Right. Which is ew.

[Sophia Bush]

And Aiden is both figuratively and physically. It's like he's a big container for her feelings, which is amazing.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

Amazing. I know. Amazing. Am amazing. I mean. Yes. Sometimes I think about where we know they go. I know, I know. I know. I know. I know. I. I still have to.

[Old Navy Advertiser]

I have.

[Kristin Davis]

Is processing what I know and then what I'm seeing in the olden days and trying to chart it all, you know?

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

But I also feel. And people have said to me, oh, well, that doesn't make sense. Or that doesn't make sense. But you change as you live.

[Old Navy Advertiser]

You.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah. So you can't necessarily know at 35 or whatever our characters are. I think we're roughly 35 at this point, and we're not real people, it should be said. But also, life changes you.

[Podcast Host]

Yes.

[Kristin Davis]

As you're living it. That's what's supposed to happen. Right?

[Ebay Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

So you don't know what you're gonna be like at 60 or 55. When you're 35, different things are gonna happen to you that are gonna shape you.

[Sophia Bush]

Yes.

[Ebay Advertiser]

Right.

[Kristin Davis]

I think people don't realize that well.

[Sophia Bush]

And it's part of why I think it's so crazy when you talk about not crazy, but I mean, sort of societally, what we all do. The idea that, you know, where you were raised, women were supposed to be married by 25. You're supposed to go to college and get your Mrs. Your prefrontal cortex is not done developing.

[Kristin Davis]

I know.

[Sophia Bush]

Like, your literal brain is not the brain of an adult.

[Kristin Davis]

I know it.

[Sophia Bush]

Until you're 26 or 27 years old. And I'm going, what in the world? People are letting people get married.

[Kristin Davis]

I know. People get married younger than that. Definitely. I know. I know. But I mean, the world is changing because definitely, I don't think. I don't think that pressure is there now in the same way at the same age. I think the pressure might be there. I read something over the weekend about not just getting married, but success, like career success, and how 35 is what they now younger people have in their minds. Like, I need to be, you know, like, successful at 35, whatever that means for me. Which is also. Nothing's true.

[Old Navy Advertiser]

Right.

[Kristin Davis]

Like, that's not true. You know, you might have one job at 35 and then be Miserable and want to leave it and find another job or another calling or another, you know, mission in life. You have no idea. It never ends. And that was part of the reason we wanted to do. And just like that is that life is never not over.

[Sophia Bush]

Yes.

[Kristin Davis]

It's still an adventure. You still don't know what might happen. There's still decisions and life changing events and things happen. Why, why pretend somehow that when you hit 45 or 50 or whatever arbitrary number you want to come up with that your life is over? No way. No.

[Sophia Bush]

I think all the time about phases. You know, I was having this conversation just yesterday with a friend and I said I must. I might do something completely different with my life at 50. I don't know.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah, I think about the same thing.

[Sophia Bush]

We're at 60 or at 70. Like, why not, right?

[Kristin Davis]

No, you can do whatever you want. It's a great thing to remember. It's important. I know, I agree. Okay, let's talk about the episode. Sometimes it's hard to go back. But we will, we will, we will. So what I love, I love, love, love this whole intimacy conversation. So Carrie has what she thought she wanted. He is basically choosing her. And now she's stressing. She can't sleep at night. She's waking up in the middle of the night, she doesn't know why. So interesting, right? And then she, she goes, She's. He says, he, he wants to, you know, introduce her to the parents. And she panics. And he obviously is very patient with her, which I think is amazing. And then. And he says to her, it's no big deal. I have a life. I'm just making room for you in it. I know, right?

[Sophia Bush]

Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

I mean, my gosh. So then she comes to the opera with me, which is adorable because I was trying to get. I've left out myself. So I've got the book, Marriage Incorporated. I assume it's a real book. I don't even know. My God. Insane. And it says I'm at the coffee shop with them. And I tell them this book says not to hang out with my single dysfunctional friends, that I need to hang out with my friend. I can't believe they don't just like, like, you know, like scratch. You know what I mean? Like, what on earth? I'm so bold. But. And also that to me is a crazy thing to say.

[Sophia Bush]

Yes.

[Kristin Davis]

Like, wow. Like, come on.

[Sophia Bush]

Well, and, but what I think is sweet about it, and I think clearly the dynamic of these four women, you know, these friends know each other.

[Podcast Host]

Yes.

[Sophia Bush]

You not only say, the thing that could really sting, but then you explain that. The book explains that you're supposed to treat finding a mate the way you would treat starting a business. There is a checklist. You are gonna hang out with married friends because they've got good single friends. And it's like. It's insane.

[Kristin Davis]

It's bonkers.

[Sophia Bush]

But of course, someone wrote it. Oh, definitely. And of course, people have taken this advice.

[Kristin Davis]

Yes. And I mean, thank God they love her, you know? And they're just like, okay, Charlotte, sure, sweetheart. But also then, I mean, to me, it's also kind of. Kind of crazy to think that the married people's friends would somehow be different than the people that us single ladies would meet.

[Podcast Host]

How.

[Kristin Davis]

Why? They're just single people. It makes no sense. But whatever. Charlotte's gonna try. What Charlotte's gonna try. So she's hounding this guy, who we've never seen this couple before. The. Apparently, Charlotte has his other friends, Dennis. She's hounding him to set her up with one of his single friends. And he's dodging her kind of. Right. And she can't figure it out. So she had tickets to the opera, and she had said to him, oh, great, I have tickets to. Yes. And. But he hasn't gotten back to her, so she doesn't know what's going on. So she asked Carrie, which is kind of wonderful, because, first of all, I remember that day, and I remember going to the opera, and I was so excited that I got to go with Carrie, because sometimes I don't get to do the walk and talks. You know, I always wanted to do the walk and talks. So I'm like, oh, we have to go to the opera. It's even better. It's even better than a walk and talk. Because, I mean, a scene at the opera is always a great thing in film. Right? I mean. And yeah, it's a kind of a. It's done a lot when you look at things like, it's in action films. It's in. I just watched the morning show. They had an opera, you know, scenario in the morning show. I know. I think it's because opera's so dramatic. Like, you wouldn't necessarily show people how to play, though we do do that later on because Smith is an actor. Right. But, like, opera is the height of emotion. So I think that's partly why.

[Sophia Bush]

And it's so New York.

[Kristin Davis]

Right. And you're so dressed.

[Sophia Bush]

Opera and concentrate. It's so.

[Kristin Davis]

So New York, New York.

[Sophia Bush]

And it. I realize when you're talking about how Carrie's struggling because Aiden is so not New York. She goes and has the most New York night. Yep. And sees big.

[Kristin Davis]

Exactly. With her little, tiny, you know, binoculars. She sees big and Natasha. And then she gets up and dramatically leaves. Yeah, I know. I also. It's funny because I don't remember Carrie being so dramatic. She's pretty dramatic.

[Ebay Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

It's interesting.

[Sophia Bush]

It's interesting.

[Kristin Davis]

I don't really remember that. I think at the time I really felt all Carrie's feelings.

[Sophia Bush]

Oh, totally.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah.

[Sophia Bush]

Well, it's part of the discourse even now when people are like, that was this woman so many of us identified with. And we look back and go like, this is unhinged behavior.

[Kristin Davis]

I know, but at the time, it.

[Sophia Bush]

Didn'T seem to be. And I think there's something really interesting about how just unhinged society was in general when you think about the early aughts and how women were being treated. Oh, God. You know what I mean?

[Kristin Davis]

I do.

[Sophia Bush]

Things were nuts.

[Kristin Davis]

So things were nuts.

[Sophia Bush]

She might seem nuts now, but she really didn't at the time.

[Kristin Davis]

But the other thing is that I think Sarah Jessica as an actor is so grounded.

[Sophia Bush]

Yes.

[Kristin Davis]

That when you look, if you take a step back and go, oh, she's so dramatic. How she leaves the opera, but she makes it so real.

[Sophia Bush]

It's so real. It's so honest. She cannot sit across from them, knowing they're there. And by the way, she even says in her voiceover, she says not to be dramatic or in the most dramatic exit or whatever.

[Kristin Davis]

She acknowledges it. You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. She's aware. There's so much self awareness. And we know that because of the voiceover and because of the writing, and that's why we can kind of be inside those feelings.

[Sophia Bush]

And I think there was something when I. It's dawning on me in this moment, you know? Yes. She did such a beautiful job playing Carrie and I think humanized Carrie for us. And I think for any of us who's trying to get over our good girl syndrome, the idea that this woman said, I can't be here, and listened to her feelings and took care of herself instead of staying to please her friend. I was staying to prove she could. That's a good point. And. And sitting in that seat, panicking for the rest of the opera.

[Kristin Davis]

That's true.

[Sophia Bush]

She just said, no, I can't do it and I'm not gonna.

[Kristin Davis]

You're right.

[Sophia Bush]

That's actually a big deal. I agree.

[Kristin Davis]

And it also goes back to, I think the freedom that they all feel with each other, meaning the four of us. Like, I can say this crazy thing about I can't hang out with you guys because you're dysfunctional single people, which is a lot to say. And they're just like, yeah, okay, we get it, you're Charlotte. And then she can say like, I've gotta leave and I can. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, I do think that that is also a testament to how well they know each other, how much they love each other and the room they have for each other to be their full selves.

[Sophia Bush]

Yes.

[Kristin Davis]

Right. Which is a beautiful thing and very thankful that they did that for us. You know, you guys, this is so much fun that we are going to have to have a part two. So join us later in the week on rus Charlotte.

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[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Podcast Host]

So do healthier choices really pay off with prescription plans from CVS Caremark? They do. Their plan designs give you more choice, which gives members more ways to get on, stay on and manage their meds. And that helps you control your costs because healthier members are better for business. Go to CMK Co Access to learn more about helping your members stay adherent. That's CMK Co access. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.