Lip Service with Lena Waithe… (S3 E5 "No Ifs, Ands or Butts")

Summary

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Episode Overview

Episode: Lip Service with Lena Waithe… (S3 E5 "No Ifs, Ands or Butts")
Podcast: Are You A Charlotte?
Host: Kristin Davis
Guest: Lena Waithe
Date: November 19, 2025

In this episode, Kristin Davis reunites with writer-producer-actress Lena Waithe for a deep, lively rewatch and discussion of Sex and the City's Season 3, Episode 5: "No Ifs, Ands or Butts." The two revisit the introduction of Aiden—Carrie Bradshaw’s iconic love interest—exploring the character’s impact, the show’s evolving legacy, and behind-the-scenes stories. Their thoughtful, unfiltered conversation touches on TV artistry, relationship archetypes, societal expectations for women, and the enduring relevance of SATC.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Aiden's Introduction & Impact (03:47–08:26)

• The Aiden vs. Big Dynamic

  • Kristin and Lena reflect on how Aiden’s character sharply contrasts Big, presenting a “refreshingly different” love interest for Carrie.
    • “At the time that Aiden showed up, he was like the anti-Big.” – Kristin (04:15)
  • The authenticity of Aiden’s wardrobe: Kristin shares how actor John Corbett had strong input on his character’s clothes, opting for his own style (“Corbett turquoise”) over wardrobe picks, making the character even more real. (04:29–05:16)
  • Aiden’s “all-American” look is compared to a Ralph Lauren ad, further emphasized by denim, turquoise jewelry, a dog, and his handmade furniture. (05:37–05:54)

• Aiden and Carrie’s Central Conflict: Smoking

  • Lena discusses the episode’s central tension—Carrie choosing between smoking and Aiden—pointing out the real addiction stakes.
    • “They’re as addictive as heroin and, like, all other kind of hard drugs.” – Lena (06:29)
  • The group agrees Aiden’s objection is about concern, not control, and reflects on 90s New York’s pervasive smoking culture, both on- and off-set. (06:47–08:26)

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2. Aiden: Old-Fashioned or Ideal Partner? (13:45–17:33)

• Aiden’s Approach to Relationships
  • Lena calls Aiden “quite old fashioned” in a way that stands apart from Carrie’s other partners, specifically referencing his willingness to wait before sex and his desire for a deeper connection. (13:50–14:19)
    • “He wants her to meet his parents, and she’s all like, what?” – Lena (16:41)
  • The discussion centers on modern relationships, maturity, and how the show ages alongside its viewers:
    • “It’s more about how do I age with the show rather than how does the show age?” – Lena (14:33)
  • Kristin and Lena note how Aiden offers what Carrie—and many women—think they want (“the person you need”), yet his earnestness can push the protagonist into existential doubt about her desires. (16:45–17:24)

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3. What Do You Actually Want? (17:33–19:00)

• Societal Pressures and Self-Discovery

  • Lena leads a thoughtful reflection on differentiating personal desires from those imposed by family, friends, or society:
    • “Is this what I want? Or is this what I’ve been taught to want?” – Lena (18:10)
  • They agree that particularly for women, expectations around marriage, children, and success can cloud true self-understanding.

• The Process of Making TV and Dealing with Critique

  • Kristin recalls the frenzied, fast-paced production of early SATC seasons and how, unlike today, they operated without instant feedback or “mob mentality” critiques from online fandoms. (19:30–20:41)

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4. Art, Audience, and Cultural Longevity (20:41–21:39)

• Bravery in Art

  • Lena asserts that “art isn’t meant to be kind or to cuddle,” and that lasting art should provoke conversation—even discomfort.
    • “If a bomb isn’t chasing you, you’re not doing your job.” – Lena (20:45)
    • “A lot of the art that... has changed me—or has pushed me to want to be a better artist—often comes in very uncomfortable, uneasy packages.” – Lena (21:04)
  • Kristin emphasizes the reward of seeing SATC’s continued relevance and audience engagement, even decades later.

• The Impossible to Please Ending

  • Lena and Kristin laugh about how every possible ending (Carrie with Big, Carrie alone) angered parts of the fanbase, reinforcing the importance of creative authenticity. (21:42–21:56)

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5. Behind-the-Scenes Stories (22:01–27:48)

• On-Set Memories and Embarrassments
  • Kristin recounts details about Nicole Holofcener’s offbeat but memorable directing style, including directing an actor to “lick her face” during a kissing scene—something that left a lasting (and funny) mark both in the show and in real life. (22:01–24:13)
  • Anecdotes about “rug burn” from enthusiastic (but not bad!) kissing, and how real-life mishaps—like having a smudge in a NY Times photo—were woven into the show’s scripts by writer Michael Patrick King:
    • “Everything is copy. Come on. We all descendants of Nora Ephron, we just want to put it all in there.” – Lena (25:50)
    • Kristin: “But it’s so embarrassing when you have to play something that was your own thing.” (26:00)
  • Lucy moments, such as seeing an apartment and belatedly realizing it was Charlotte’s set apartment. (23:01–23:15)

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6. Relationship Expectations, Sexuality, and Identity (27:48–29:00)

• Openness and Defying Norms
  • Lena and Kristin celebrate the freedom to redefine life’s milestones—embracing choices outside marriage, children, and conventional partnership.
    • “You don’t have to be partnered. You don’t have to have children. You don’t have to get married. You don’t have to do a lot of things society tells you to do.” – Lena (28:54)
  • They close with affirmations of queer identity and the joy found in self-discovery, self-acceptance, and “being open-minded.” (28:26–28:48)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Aiden’s Style Choices:
  “He was always wearing what he wanted... That is Corbett. No one put that on him.”
  — Kristin Davis (04:33–05:18)

• On Relationship Realness:
  “Big is who women want. Aiden’s almost like the person you need.”
  — Lena Waithe (16:45–16:58)

• On Aging With the Show:
  “It’s more about how do I age with the show rather than how does the show age?”
  — Lena Waithe (14:33)

• On Societal Programming:
  “Is this what I want? Or is this what I’ve been taught to want?...We don’t even have our own definitions of what success is.”
  — Lena Waithe (18:10–18:54)

• On Artistic Courage:
  “If a bomb isn’t chasing you, you’re not doing your job. Art isn’t meant to be kind or to cuddle or to make people feel comfortable.”
  — Lena Waithe (20:45–21:02)

• On Real Life Inspiring TV:
  “Everything is copy. Come on. We all descendants of Nora Ephron, we just want to put it all in there. That is the goal.”
  — Lena Waithe (25:50)

• On Dismantling Expectations:
  “You don’t have to be partnered. You don’t have to have children. You don’t have to get married. You don’t have to do a lot of things society tells you to do.”
  — Lena Waithe (28:54)

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Structure & Flow of Conversation (with Timestamps)

• Aiden’s Arrival, Uniqueness, and Style (03:47–07:07)
• Smoking Storyline, Set Culture, and 90s NYC (06:32–08:26)
• Aiden’s Romantic Ideals vs. Carrie’s Needs (13:45–17:33)
• Self-Discovery, Societal Influence, and Making TV (17:33–20:41)
• The Role of Art and Lasting Impact (20:41–21:56)
• Funny On-Set Anecdotes and Writers Lifting Real Life (22:01–27:48)
• Relationship Expectations, Queerness, and Freedom (27:48–29:00)
• Closing Celebrations of Insight, Friendship, and the Show (29:00–end)

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Tone & Takeaways

The episode is marked by the warmth, chemistry, and deep intelligence of the conversation. Both Kristin and Lena combine insightful critique with playful nostalgia, offering frank reflections on societal expectations, personal growth, and the behind-the-scenes realities of Sex and the City. The dialogue underscores the enduring relevance of the show and the freedom that comes from questioning—and rewriting—social scripts.

Fans and newcomers alike will find inspiration, laughs, and comfort in the honest, optimistic rapport between guest and host.

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Transcript

[Kristin Davis]

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[Josh Zieman]

A decade ago I was on the trail of one of the country's most elusive serial killers. But it wasn't until 2023 when he was finally caught. The answers were there, hidden in plain sight. So why did it take so long to catch him? I'm Josh Zieman and this is Monster Hunting the Long Island Serial Killer, the investigation into the most notorious killer in New York since the Son of Sam. Available now. Listen for free on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts wherever you get your podcasts.

[Maggie Freeling]

The murder of an 18 year old girl in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved for years until a local housewife, a journalist and a handful of girls came forward with a story.

[Lena Waithe]

America, y' all better wake the hell up. Bad things happens to good people and small towns.

[Maggie Freeling]

Listen to Graves county on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts and to binge the entire season ad free. Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Eliakhani]

Thanksgiving isn't just about food. It's a day for us to show up for one another.

[Lena Waithe]

It's okay not to be okay sometimes and be able to build strength and.

[Josh Zieman]

Love within each other.

[Eliakhani]

I'm Eliakhani, host of the podcast Family Therapy, a series where real families come together to heal and find hope.

[Kristin Davis]

I've always wanted us to have therapy.

[Maggie Freeling]

So this is such a beautiful opportunity.

[Eliakhani]

Listen to season two of Family Therapy every Wednesday on the Black Effect Podcast Network. IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you.

[Molly Lambert]

Get your Podcasts Jenna World, Jenna Jamison, Vivid Video and the Valley is a new podcast about the history of the adult film. I'm Molly Lambert and I'll be your tour guide on a wild trip through adult films. We get paid more than the men. We call the shots. In what way is that degrading? That's us taking hold of our life. Listen to Gentle world on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Kristin Davis]

Hi, I'm Kristin Davis and I want to know, are you a Charlotte? Hi, everybody. Welco. Welcome to Are you a Charlotte? I am back with the incredible, knowledgeable, brilliant Alina Waith for part two of Are youe a Charlotte? Rewatching. No ifs, ands or buts. All right, now, we have not talked about all the different things. Let's talk a little bit more because, you know, we like, talk about the macro here.

[Lena Waithe]

I love.

[Kristin Davis]

I love that about you. But I wanted to get your point of view on Aiden and Carrie, but Aiden especially, because obviously at the time that Aiden showed up, he was like the anti. Big.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes, right. Very much.

[Kristin Davis]

And when I see his little baby.

[Lena Waithe]

I know his little, like, cheeks. Oh, my God, his hair.

[Kristin Davis]

I mean, just so adorable. And he was always wearing what he wanted. I just want to go on record about this. People really criticized what he wore. And I dressed like that. And I was at his fitting. I had pulled out some things. I had a fitting right before him, and they were like, john is coming. I was like, oh, these clothes are beautiful. So I pulled out all the beautiful things. I put them together. Like, I was picking outfits for Corbett. Right. And he got there and he was like, no. And I was like, okay, all right, I'm leaving.

[Josh Zieman]

Goodbye. Right.

[Kristin Davis]

And I left Molly with him and he wanted that narrow jacket thing. That's what he wanted to wear.

[Eva Longoria]

Right.

[Kristin Davis]

And then everybody was like, why did Molly Rogers put him in that? She did not put him in that. Right. Like when he was wearing the double jean in the beginning. That is Corbett Indian suit.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah. Right.

[Kristin Davis]

With the rings.

[Lena Waithe]

This is Corbett turquoise.

[Kristin Davis]

This is Corbett.

[Lena Waithe]

Right.

[Kristin Davis]

No one put that on him.

[Lena Waithe]

Well, they're trying to. He is supposed to be like, is he like a Midwestern type guy?

[Kristin Davis]

I mean, would he ever say.

[Lena Waithe]

I mean, just doesn't say where he's from. Maybe he doesn't say that.

[Kristin Davis]

I don't know. Cause remember he had been on Northern Exposure before. That was how he was.

[Lena Waithe]

I know, Northern Exposure. I remember that show. I mean, what I liked is the voiceover is that he's very all American.

[Eva Longoria]

Right.

[Lena Waithe]

So he's also something a bit out of a Ralph Lauren ad, you know, Definitely. If you think about it, they're wearing the denim on denim and the turquoise jewelry as well.

[Kristin Davis]

And he's got his longer hair. Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

They got the dog, his little baby.

[Kristin Davis]

Face, and the dog who wants to hump, carry. I had forgotten all about this. And he makes furniture. He literally makes furniture, which is so dreamy.

[Lena Waithe]

A chair that lives in the show long past, forever.

[Kristin Davis]

I had forgotten all of this.

[Lena Waithe]

His chair survives him, I think. You know, I think I love the introduction of that character. I love how they introduce him. It was good. I love that she says she has a crush. I love that she has to. There's always gonna be a conflict. So I love that she has to choose between him and cigarettes. And I even googled it. I said, how addictive are cigarettes? And I'm like, I just goog because I'm not a smoker. I don't smoke cigarettes. But I said, how. How addictive are they? Like, I mean, yeah, they're like. They're as addictive as heroin and, like, you know, like all other kind of hard drugs. So.

[Kristin Davis]

Right.

[Lena Waithe]

You really feel for her, you know.

[Kristin Davis]

Trying to figure out jittery and everything.

[Lena Waithe]

Right. But what I do appreciate is that she's willing to say, you know what? And I love the girls, too. Are like, we all hate it. We all hate that.

[Kristin Davis]

I like that scene. I like that scene a lot. I forgot about that. Where we're like, he's right.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah. Like, we put up with it. That's rare.

[Kristin Davis]

Like, that's so rare that we're like some guy we've never met. We're like, yes, you should listen to him.

[Lena Waithe]

Well, but it's not even listen. It's more about. It's not a great habit. It's bad for you. No, it's tough. And so I thought that's what's so great about that argument, is because you can say, oh, he's being controlling. And then. So I can say. Or he's trying to say, yo, it's not healthy.

[Kristin Davis]

Definitely. Absolutely. I mean, I feel like.

[Lena Waithe]

And also, if anybody's ever kissed somebody.

[Kristin Davis]

Who just smoked a cigarette, I'm with you. I mean, that's what's so funny to me when she. So she gets the cigarette out, and he goes, oh, we have a problem. And then she's like, what she thinks it's about that she lied that she was a designer.

[Eva Longoria]

Right.

[Kristin Davis]

To get the discount on the chair. But it's not. It's the cigarette. And he goes, you know, I can't date a smoker. And then she's like, oh, I'll just put it away. She turns her back. Then she turns back to him. She's taking a puff, and then he kisses her. And then he goes. And it doesn't even occur to her.

[Lena Waithe]

That she took a puff.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah. And I think some of that is the 90s New York. Like, everybody was just smoking. Like when you see the first season and she goes to that book party of the Justin. What's his name? Thank you. Theroux's character, like, he plays two writers. Do you remember this? He played two different writers. His first writer's, like, kind of an ick. Like, oh, now I'm gonna say a name, but I shouldn't say name. He's like one of those, like, you know, super cool young guy writers. And everyone at that party is smoking. That's what I remember.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

You know, and like, on our set, everybody would smoke. So we'd be in that small, like the soundstage at Silver Cup. I feel like the ceiling was this low. And like, our first AD would smoke like a chimney. Jessica was smoking every. There was just a cloud of smoke. Do you know what I mean? Like, all night long you're just in there. You be like, I gotta go outside to breathe.

[Lena Waithe]

Whoa.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah. It was a lot throwback. It was a lot. I know. AG's holiday 2025 collection is here. This season, AG explores the intersection of cinematic legacy and sartorial craftsmanship. Drawing inspiration from the crews and directors behind the iconic spaghetti westerns of the 1960s. Set against the backdrop of Alabama hills, a legendary location in film history, the collection channels a sense of sun, bleached grit, timeless style, and quiet confidence. This collection is a tribute to the makers behind the lens. The costume designers, cinematographers, and directors whose understated off screen style helped shape on screen legacy. The holiday 2025 collection is available now at aggeens.com use code Kristin15 to take 15% off your next order. Even if you've shopped AG before. You guys, the holidays are coming and I am personally so excited to start making the cookies. It's one of my favorite parts. Every year you get to make them and then you get to eat them and maybe you give them away. And before you know it, Black Friday is here. And Pandora Jewelry is offering up to 40% off store wide and site wide. Now through December 2nd, explore jewelry designed to last beyond the season. From classic charms to modern Rings, bracelets, earrings and more. Whether you're holiday shopping or treating yourself, now's the perfect time to find something Special. [e-mail] and your local Pandora store. Exclusive supply.

[Josh Zieman]

A decade ago, I was on the trail of one of the country's most elusive serial killers. But it wasn't until 2023 when he was finally caught. The answers were there, hidden in plain sight. So why did it take so long to catch him? I'm Josh Zieman and this is Monster Hunting the Long Island Serial Killer. The investigation into the most notorious killer in New York since the Son of Sam. Available now listen for free on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Lena Waithe]

All I know is what I've been told. And that's a half truth is a whole lie.

[Maggie Freeling]

For almost a decade, the murder of an 18 year old girl from a small town in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved until a local homemaker, a journalist and a handful of girls came forward with a story.

[Lena Waithe]

I'm telling you, we know Quincy killed her.

[Maggie Freeling]

We know a story that law enforcement used to convict six people and that got the citizen investigator on national tv.

[Molly Lambert]

Through sheer persistence and nerve, this Kentucky.

[Kristin Davis]

Housewife helped give justice to Jessica Curran.

[Maggie Freeling]

My name is Maggie Freeling. I'm a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist producer. And I wouldn't be here if the truth were that easy to find.

[Eliakhani]

I did not know her and I.

[Kristin Davis]

Did not kill her or rape or burn or any of that other stuff.

[Lena Waithe]

That y' all said. They literally made me say that I took a match and struck and threw it on her. They made me say that I poured gas on her.

[Maggie Freeling]

From lava. For good. This is Graves County, a show about just how far our legal system will go in order to find someone to blame.

[Lena Waithe]

America, y' all better wake the hell up. Bad things happens to good people and small towns.

[Maggie Freeling]

Listen to Graves county in the Bone Valley feed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts and to binge the entire season ad free. Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcast.

[Kristin Davis]

I'm Eva Longoria.

[Maite Gomez Rejon]

And I'm Maite Gomez Rejon.

[Eva Longoria]

And on our podcast Hungry for History, we mix two of our favorite things, food and history.

[Maite Gomez Rejon]

Ancient Athenians used to scratch names onto oyster shells and they called these ostracon to vote politicians into exile. So our word ostracize is related to the word oyster.

[Lena Waithe]

No way.

[Maite Gomez Rejon]

Bring back the ostrichon.

[Eva Longoria]

And because we've got a very mi casa e su casa kind of vibe on our show. Friends always stop by.

[Kristin Davis]

Pretty much every entry into this side of the planet was through the El Golfo de Mexico. No, the America El Golfo de Mexico continuing haciendo a si forever and ever since.

[Eva Longoria]

It blows me away how progressive Mexico was in this, in this moment. They had land reform, they had labor rights, they had education rights.

[Maite Gomez Rejon]

Mustard seeds were so valuable to the ancient Egyptians that they used to place them in their tombs for the afterlife.

[Eva Longoria]

Listen to Hungry for History as part of the My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Kristin Davis]

I just want to talk about Ayden some more.

[Lena Waithe]

Okay.

[Kristin Davis]

I don't know what to make of Aiden when I look back.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, I. I think Aiden is actually quite old fashioned.

[Kristin Davis]

In a good way. Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

I mean, I think just in many ways. I don't know if it's good or bad, you know, but I think. And obviously I love. Obviously I started. It's Netflix. So the next episode begins and you know, you just kind of let it roll a little bit.

[Kristin Davis]

Yes.

[Lena Waithe]

But I do love the episode where he waits to have sex with Carrie.

[Kristin Davis]

I've forgotten about that.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah, very interesting. And she's a little like, what is happening?

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

And I think that to me, again, what's cool about Sex and the City is that's why I don't get too concerned about the politics around certain things. Because it's more about how do I age with the show rather than how does the show age?

[Kristin Davis]

Interesting.

[Lena Waithe]

Because for me, you know, in my early 40s now and watching a character say, you know what, I want to hold off on, like just jumping into bed right away. I want to really continue to get to know you. I want to make sure we have a foundation. That's something now that you can look at and go, oh, I relate to this. I understand the idea of not centering sex in a relationship. And it shows his maturity in that. He's like, look, I've done the. We have sex early and it hasn't quite worked out. And so he's like, I want this to work. And I love that she is like, huh. Now I'm like nervous to have sex with because there's an investment.

[Kristin Davis]

Definitely.

[Lena Waithe]

And I just sort of think that. And also, you know, well, Aiden. I'm talking about Aiden later too. Like when he. There's a breakup, obviously, and then he comes back and there's a willingness to forgive, there's a willingness to keep trying. But I also think because look I'm childless by choice. And I think some. Aiden was very determined to be a father, and we see how that choice affects his life later with Carrie.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

And sometimes it can be frustrating because you look and you're like, okay, bruh, your kids are practically grown. Like, they're their own people. How much micromanaging do you need to do? Again, you have to have conflicts at the TV show. Not complaining.

[Kristin Davis]

Right.

[Lena Waithe]

But I do think there's this idea if he hadn't been so concerned with being a father, he might have been able to be a better partner and a more, you know, free version of himself.

[Kristin Davis]

That's so interesting. I like that so much.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

I mean, I'm gonna. I'm gonna. Now that I'm back in the old Aiden. Right?

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah. No, we're Early Aiden.

[Kristin Davis]

Early arts. Early Aiden with that little. Little baby face of his is so adorable, and he is so different, and just the he brings is so different. Just carve it himself.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

It's very. It's specific and interestingly different.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah, he's a bit of a hippie and, you know, free spirit.

[Kristin Davis]

He's got a strength.

[Lena Waithe]

Very grounded.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

Very comfortable in his skin.

[Kristin Davis]

Yes.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

Which is so nice for her. Oh, absolutely.

[Lena Waithe]

I love that she, like, he wants her to meet his parents, and she's all like, what?

[Kristin Davis]

Right.

[Lena Waithe]

You know, so it's that thing of. I love how he's offering. Obviously, everything Big didn't. And what I really appreciate about the difference between the two is that Big is who. Women. One. Aiden's almost like the person you need.

[Kristin Davis]

Definitely.

[Lena Waithe]

And so you. Cause Aiden's concerned about her health.

[Kristin Davis]

Right.

[Lena Waithe]

Big is like, y' all smoke, too?

[Kristin Davis]

Definitely.

[Lena Waithe]

Big's like, I'm not really trying to commit. And she's like, well, that's frustrating. And Aiden's like, how about I buy the apartment next to us so we can break down that wall and make this our home.

[Kristin Davis]

Right.

[Lena Waithe]

And she's like, what? You know, so it does kind of push, you know, Carrie or a woman to ask themselves, wait a minute. What do I actually want?

[Kristin Davis]

Right?

[Lena Waithe]

Because the thing I said I want.

[Kristin Davis]

I'm now here, Right.

[Lena Waithe]

And I'm, like, running from it.

[Kristin Davis]

Right, right, right, right.

[Lena Waithe]

And that is something I'm so fascinated by.

[Kristin Davis]

Me too. And it's so real.

[Lena Waithe]

It's so real.

[Kristin Davis]

So real.

[Lena Waithe]

Because she literally is having a panic attack with the. With the gown. With the wedding gown, with him coming through the wall, and it's like she can't, you know, keep a track of his dog for enough time.

[Kristin Davis]

Oh, that's such a good episode.

[Lena Waithe]

It's just sort of like Carrie. And I think that's the. That's. It's interesting because it's a question I ask in my work on the page and also in life a lot, is, what do you actually want? And I think, you know, in life, in a relationship, in your career? And I think people are almost afraid to say it out loud because then you can't. You can't unsay it.

[Kristin Davis]

That's true.

[Lena Waithe]

And once you've put it out there. And also you have to ask yourself, is this what I want? Or is this what I've been taught to want?

[Kristin Davis]

Right.

[Lena Waithe]

Is this what my parents want?

[Kristin Davis]

Right.

[Lena Waithe]

Or is this what society is telling me I should want?

[Kristin Davis]

Right. Is this what my friends want?

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah. Or is this what I actually want? And I think we as individuals have to really decipher what. What is what.

[Kristin Davis]

Right.

[Lena Waithe]

Because you've been fed something your whole life, particularly if you're a woman, particularly if you have a certain class, if you're a woman of color. Because a lot of times you're raised to be straight, you're raised to be of a certain religion, you're raised to make money, you're raised to be successful.

[Kristin Davis]

Yes.

[Lena Waithe]

And we don't even have our own definitions of what success is. What is success?

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

And so. And that's why I even say it goes back to, like, how did we handle this? I'm like, you handled it the best way you could at the time.

[Kristin Davis]

I mean, that's true. That's true. I guess for me, I. You know, because I'm in it. Right. I was in it then, and I always want us to. I guess sometimes when I watch it, I'm like, wow, it's so great. And it's so much better than I remembered. Sometimes I feel that. Right. Which is, of course, so rewarding and amazing. And then sometimes I'm like, I don't know. I know the idea maybe, but I don't know exactly how that got. How that got fleshed out. You know what I'm saying?

[Lena Waithe]

Well, as a person who's on the other side of it, where we're writing, a lot of times we're under. In terms of, like, who knows what kind of stress?

[Kristin Davis]

So stress.

[Lena Waithe]

Or an actor can't do a thing, or the network wants something and we're trying to do this, and we have to do it quickly. We have to lose a scene. And, you know, and oftentimes with tv, people don't Realize it's quick. Like, you have to hurry up and turn the script around and you can get it.

[Kristin Davis]

Especially this third season, we did like 20 something or whatever and we were, you know, it was like kind of the end of that era in a way. You know, Like, I don't think after that we ever did that many. I think we did a lot fourth season, but not that many. And I think it. HBO very rarely said that much to us, so it wasn't so much that, though. I know obviously normally you do have notes and different things. Right. But I think also, and I'm curious your thoughts on this, you know, the way that we're living now, the way that we're able to immediately critique everything online and everything is kind of like open season. Open season and compounded. Right. So, like, if someone starts complaining about something, everyone kind of jumps on that bandwagon.

[Lena Waithe]

Right.

[Kristin Davis]

In a way where they somehow feel community with each other.

[Lena Waithe]

Mob mentality.

[Kristin Davis]

Community.

[Lena Waithe]

Right.

[Kristin Davis]

What do you make of that in terms of what we do for a living?

[Lena Waithe]

Well, I think here's the deal. As artists, we. If a bomb isn't chasing you, you're not doing your job.

[Molly Lambert]

Wow.

[Kristin Davis]

Love it. I'm gonna try to remember this.

[Lena Waithe]

Art isn't meant to be kind or to cuddle.

[Kristin Davis]

It's a good point.

[Lena Waithe]

Or to make people feel comfortable.

[Kristin Davis]

That's a good point.

[Lena Waithe]

A lot of the art that I. That has changed me or has pushed me to want to be a better artist often comes in very uncomfortable, uneasy packages. And there's no right or wrong way to handle sensitive content or material. I think, also, I think the real test is not where a piece of art sits right now, but how we examine it 10 years from now or 20 years from now. And I think the reason why you can do a podcast about the show is because it's still relevant.

[Kristin Davis]

Absolutely. It's such a gift. It's amazing. It's amazing. But who knew then?

[Lena Waithe]

We didn't really know because that's how it goes.

[Kristin Davis]

Right.

[Lena Waithe]

You know what I'm saying? I love what you said, too. You said, oh, when. When Carrie wound up with Big, people were outraged and when she wound up alone, people were outraged.

[Kristin Davis]

It's so true. It's so true.

[Lena Waithe]

So the truth is, an artist has to do what feels right to them in that moment.

[Kristin Davis]

Right, Right. I mean, the kissing. All I remember is this. It was Nicole Hlofsener. Do you know her?

[Lena Waithe]

I mean, I know of her.

[Kristin Davis]

Yes. Yeah. She would come. I don't know how we got her to do so many episodes. Because she was always trying to do her own films. Right?

[Lena Waithe]

I mean, she's directing. Great filmmaker.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. But we would just steal her in between. And she was so funny and kind of light about it all. But also sometimes she would just give crazy direction. And I remember her telling that guy whose name I could never remember. We would run into him, and Cynthia would be, there's that guy. I'd be like, which one? She'd be like, the one who licked your face. He's over there. And I'd be like, oh, my God, what's his name? We could look up his name right now. But I just remember standing. That was before I married Kyle, so I hadn't moved to Park Avenue. So I'm actually on Central park west at an apartment building that I actually looked for an apartment in, not realizing it was Charlotte's apartment building.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, this is very meta.

[Kristin Davis]

So meta. And I was like, oh, God, I can't live here.

[Josh Zieman]

Like.

[Lena Waithe]

Like, it's too much.

[Kristin Davis]

Too much. If I was just going to work out the door with that. That frilly iron work. This door looks familiar. And they were like, yeah, you filmed it.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah, this was. This was a door. So sorry that you had a bad kiss.

[Kristin Davis]

And a number of other things. I think, like, other. Other men have been standing at that door with me. Prolific in the beginning.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah. Was out there trying to find the husband.

[Kristin Davis]

I know. And just. Just sampling all kind of different people. So wait, was it. Is it. No. Brad the bad. Yeah. Ross Gibby. Ross Gibby.

[Lena Waithe]

Say in real life, he's like, I'm not that bad. This is. I'm sure he's acting. That was not.

[Kristin Davis]

It was just like liquor.

[Maite Gomez Rejon]

Liquor.

[Kristin Davis]

And I would just be like, ah.

[Lena Waithe]

But it worked, though. It works.

[Kristin Davis]

It was hard to watch it.

[Maite Gomez Rejon]

Does it?

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah. Cause you're like, yeah, man, that's bad.

[Kristin Davis]

It was bad. It was bad. And then when you try to coach him.

[Lena Waithe]

You need the coaching, though, I thought was nice because you were always trying to.

[Kristin Davis]

I liked it.

[Lena Waithe]

You were really trying to get the guys to.

[Kristin Davis]

I was.

[Lena Waithe]

I was like, just, come on, let me help.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah, Just, just, just.

[Lena Waithe]

I like that, though. I want you not giving up on the guys straight away.

[Kristin Davis]

No, I agree.

[Lena Waithe]

Like, dump them. Let him go. You're like, hold on.

[Kristin Davis]

Cause he does seem really nice. We never see him other than when he's licking my face. But previous to that, in real life, I had. There's a guy, and he had a prominent chin, and I have a prominent chin. And I had Gone to work with like a. Like a rug burn on my chin.

[Lena Waithe]

Wow.

[Kristin Davis]

You know when you just really kissed a lot.

[Lena Waithe]

Okay. I've never had rug burn on my chin, though.

[Kristin Davis]

Good point.

[Lena Waithe]

Okay.

[Kristin Davis]

But you know when you've kissed a lot, right?

[Lena Waithe]

Sure.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah. And it's fun. Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure, for sure. It was like that. But I had like a. Like a scrape on my chin like a kid would get if they fell down.

[Lena Waithe]

Wow.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah. And it was fun. It was worth it. But then it was bad at work.

[Lena Waithe]

You know what I mean?

[Kristin Davis]

To the point where I think they had to go in post and fix it.

[Lena Waithe]

Really?

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

There was this.

[Kristin Davis]

It was. It's the really embarrassing. It's second season. It's when the old man. The sex. Charlotte has a guy who falls asleep while she's having sex with him. And so she goes. She gets the girls to go with her to a workshop given by this older lady who demonstrates on her husband.

[Lena Waithe]

Right.

[Kristin Davis]

And then that's when, like that episode, I had like a scab on my chin.

[Lena Waithe]

Wow.

[Kristin Davis]

And I sit in the episode like this. Oh.

[Lena Waithe]

See?

[Kristin Davis]

So then Michael Patrick had me sit in the coffee shop of the kissings with my. You don't see it for the longest time. So I'm listening, I'm listening, I'm listening. And then I take my hand out and they're like, wow. It was him writing in something from life, which is bad behavior on his part.

[Lena Waithe]

I mean, I do it too.

[Kristin Davis]

Do you?

[Lena Waithe]

Everything is copy. Come on. We all descendants of Nora Ephron, we just want to put it all in there. That is the goal.

[Kristin Davis]

So embarrassing.

[Lena Waithe]

Real life is better than fiction.

[Kristin Davis]

That's true. That's true. Sometimes it is. But it's so embarrassing when you have to play something that was your own thing. Which another time that that happened, I did a play about people wrongfully convicted and put on death row.

[Lena Waithe]

Wow.

[Kristin Davis]

And it was all based on true stories. And we were downtown off Broadway, and this interviewer came down to interview me for the New York Times. I was so excited. Right? And they take your picture like they're not a photo shoot, like, while you're rehearsing. Right. And when that piece came out in the New York Times, there was like a smudge on my upper lip and it looked like a. Like a Hitler little mustache. So Michael Patrick wrote it in for my engagement pictures. Do you remember this?

[Lena Waithe]

Whoa.

[Kristin Davis]

Where I like, open the paper and.

[Lena Waithe]

I'm like, oh, yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

That was from real life.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, wow. You can't tell him anything.

[Kristin Davis]

I Know it.

[Lena Waithe]

He'll use it.

[Kristin Davis]

Right.

[Lena Waithe]

But that's what good writers do.

[Kristin Davis]

I know, but we learned that. And so then if he'd walk over, we'd be like, so stop talking. Stop talking.

[Lena Waithe]

I don't get.

[Kristin Davis]

Right. And then we told everybody that was always the writers, which usually it was the writers. Right?

[Lena Waithe]

For sure. They're in there.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah. But occasionally it would be us. So when that. But the thing that was funny was that Nicole's direction to the guy was like liquor. How would I get a rug burn from the tongue? I. I don't. I don't think that would happen.

[Lena Waithe]

I just feel like there is a frame where he's legit sucking on your chin.

[Kristin Davis]

Okay.

[Lena Waithe]

But when I witnessed that, do you.

[Kristin Davis]

Feel like I'd have, like an open wound from that? Did it bother you? Okay.

[Lena Waithe]

It didn't, but it's very given tv. TV storyline.

[Kristin Davis]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Lena Waithe]

So I'm not that bad.

[Kristin Davis]

I could be on the street even. Like, we're on the street. What could we be doing? You know what I mean?

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah. Not even inside.

[Kristin Davis]

Yeah. And also I got my actual rug burned from like a lot of kissing.

[Eva Longoria]

Right.

[Kristin Davis]

Not a bad kisser. A really good kisser.

[Lena Waithe]

Right.

[Kristin Davis]

You know what I'm saying? So there were some similarities.

[Lena Waithe]

So it all kind of. It's all kind of real.

[Kristin Davis]

It is all kind of real. It is all kind of real because obviously we've all kissed a bad kisser. Right.

[Lena Waithe]

I'm grateful to not have had that experience.

[Kristin Davis]

Really.

[Lena Waithe]

I think it's a woman.

[Kristin Davis]

And women are generally, I think the good.

[Lena Waithe]

We don't like to make generalizations. I haven't. I don't know if I can like confirm that. I mean, but I've never had. No. A bad experience.

[Kristin Davis]

That's nice. Yeah, that's nice. That's nice.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah. This is me promoting women. This is what they saying. They're like, I love it.

[Maite Gomez Rejon]

I love it.

[Kristin Davis]

Please go ahead. Go ahead.

[Lena Waithe]

I like ladies because as you.

[Kristin Davis]

As you brought up up earlier, it is something more people are now considering in the face of look.

[Lena Waithe]

Because what is. What is straight even. It's like we're all humans having a human experience.

[Kristin Davis]

Absolutely.

[Lena Waithe]

What? Don't let gender get in the way of your.

[Maggie Freeling]

No.

[Kristin Davis]

And that's. That's the Miranda.

[Lena Waithe]

Your hello.

[Kristin Davis]

Storyline.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah. Don't. Don't let it get in the way.

[Kristin Davis]

No. Be open minded.

[Lena Waithe]

Be open.

[Kristin Davis]

You'll live a better life.

[Lena Waithe]

That's absolutely true. I'm a testament to that.

[Kristin Davis]

I think I am, too.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Kristin Davis]

In my own Way. Hello. Yes.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah, you don't have to.

[Kristin Davis]

It's still a work in progress.

[Lena Waithe]

You don't. We all are.

[Kristin Davis]

Yes.

[Lena Waithe]

You don't have to be partnered. You don't have to have children. You don't have to get married. You don't have to do a lot of things society tells you to do.

[Kristin Davis]

That's right. Lena, always such a joy. We want you ever you eat.

[Lena Waithe]

Come on.

[Kristin Davis]

We love it so much.

[Lena Waithe]

You're amazing.

[Kristin Davis]

You're amazing. Thank you for having me back. So wise and wonderful. I'm just so honored that you're my second repeat. My first repeat. You're my second. You know, you're my first person to come twice.

[Lena Waithe]

First person to come a second time.

[Kristin Davis]

And rightly so. You should have a place of honor.

[Lena Waithe]

Look, I'm honored. You know, I studied the show. I studied it in real time. I continue to study it.

[Kristin Davis]

I know it.

[Lena Waithe]

I love it.

[Molly Lambert]

It's a joy.

[Kristin Davis]

It's a joy.

[Lena Waithe]

And it's a time capsule for us.

[Kristin Davis]

And also, I never know what you're gonna say, and I love that so much. You know, I love that you have a point of view that's unique and your own and so well studied. Right. It's not like you're like knee jerk.

[Molly Lambert]

You're.

[Kristin Davis]

You have a lot of evidence, you know, a lot of deep thought. And. And I appreciate that so much.

[Lena Waithe]

Thank you. I'm grateful that you appreciate it.

[Kristin Davis]

When I first asked Lena before we started the podcast, she was like, I say, I wrote to her, you're an encyclopedia. And she was like, well, thank God someone wants that.

[Maggie Freeling]

Or something like that.

[Kristin Davis]

I was like, I do. I want it.

[Lena Waithe]

Everybody does it.

[Kristin Davis]

I get it. But whatever. I love it.

[Lena Waithe]

I love it. I love you all day long. I know.

[Kristin Davis]

I love you, too.

[Lena Waithe]

I know. That's gonna. They have to wrap us or we just be here.

[Kristin Davis]

This is an I heart podcast.