Sex Therapist Dr. Viviana Coles explains if Carrie really can have sex like a man and what women actually need to learn from men about sex... (S4 E4 "What's Sex Got to Do With It?")

Summary

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Are You a Charlotte? — Sex Therapist Dr. Viviana Coles on "What Sex Got to Do With It?"

Host: Kristen Davis
Guest: Dr. Viviana Coles (Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Certified Sex Therapist)
Date: April 6, 2026
Show Theme: Exploring the Trey & Charlotte dynamic in SATC, women, men, and sex
Episode Focus: S4E4 "What's Sex Got to Do With It?"

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Episode Overview

This episode is a deep, engaging exploration of Sex and the City’s famous Charlotte–Trey storyline, with a special focus on how intimacy and sexual disconnect play out in relationships—both on-screen and in real life. Host Kristen Davis (who played Charlotte York) is joined by renowned sex therapist Dr. Viviana Coles. Together, they discuss not just Charlotte and Trey’s challenges, but wider cultural expectations around sex and intimacy, what women might learn from men, and why authentic communication about sexual needs is so crucial.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Revisiting Charlotte & Trey’s Sexual Struggles

[04:13–18:48]

• Kristen and Dr. Coles discuss how Charlotte’s romantic idealism and decision to "wait" created unintended intimacy barriers.

• Dr. Coles sees Charlotte as alone in her struggle:

  "She was alone in dealing with it, in talking about it, and thinking about it." (Dr. Coles, 07:29)

• Dr. Coles’ professional advice: Don’t put sex on a pedestal, as it builds anxiety and disconnect:

  "If they're putting sex on a pedestal, that in and of itself creates a dynamic that can cause a lot of pressure and anxiety." (Dr. Coles, 08:46)

• Discussion about Trey's reluctance to communicate, and how his avoidance is the real relationship red flag:

  "It's not that he's experiencing the issue, it's how he's handling it and how he's making—the fact that he's not handling it—and how he's treating her attempts to try to help. That is not partnership." (Dr. Coles, 15:46)

• The challenge of intimacy with partners who avoid emotional openness, and the role fantasies/pornography can play in disconnect between couples.

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Approaching Sexual Dysfunction in Relationships

[12:32–20:11]

• Dr. Coles explains how therapists assess whether sexual issues are relational or individual.
• Stress, upbringing (notably, Trey's relationship with his mother Bunny), and performance anxiety are often factors.
• The importance of both partners’ willingness to discuss and confront the issue.
• Trey’s need for "stimulus" (sex in public places, etc.) points to deeper intimacy issues.
• Key takeaway: Willingness to address vulnerability is critical for healing sexual difficulties.

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Therapy Methods & Sensate Focus

[27:12–35:39]

• Kristen asks about real sex therapy techniques, such as "just touching—no sex" at home.

• Dr. Coles describes "sensate focus," a well-known but sometimes outdated technique, and her own "Dr. Viviana Method for Intimate Reconnection," which gradually builds intimacy over six weeks, starting with intentional non-sexual touch and sincere communication.

  "For a lot of couples, they're kissing or holding hands or even having intercourse just out of habit, but they're not actually wanting it...So we need to break off and almost, like, strip away all the habits and routines so that the next time that this happens, it's very intentional." (Dr. Coles, 30:22)

• Emphasis on the value of maintenance therapy and not waiting for crisis.

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Authenticity, Red Flags, and Growth

[35:39–37:24]

• Discussion on how Charlotte refuses to settle for "fake" passion, highlighting the courage it takes to admit when sexual connection is lacking.

• Notable quote:

  "She could have easily done what I'm sure you and I have seen before, where it's like, okay, let me just sweep this under the rug...But this is fake. This isn't real enough." (Dr. Coles, 35:39–36:20)

• Dr. Coles notes that while sex, money, and kids are dubbed as causes for breakups, in her experience, sex is the unspoken root—people are rarely honest about it.

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Carrie & "Sex Like a Man"

[42:32–51:12]

• Carrie’s new relationship with the jazz guy raises questions about detachment and whether women can "have sex like a man."

• Dr. Coles challenges the binary—it's not just about men vs. women, but how society encourages men to let sexual thoughts "swirl around," while women suppress them:

  "I do think that societally and socially we as women could learn something from men about the way that they are able to let fantasies just swirl around them all the time." (Dr. Coles, 46:22)

• Women should give themselves permission to fantasize and access their sexual imagination, not just performatively, but for their own pleasure and connection:

  "Your brain is your largest sexual organ. If you're using it, awesome. If you're not, you're missing out." (Dr. Coles, 51:12)

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Shame, Performance, and Cultural Shifts

[48:46–51:12]

• Ongoing problems of shame around female sexuality, despite cultural progress since the show’s 1998 debut.
• Kristen and Dr. Coles note that much of the "freedom" to express sexuality is still performative, and true liberation is about individual, internal permission.

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Charlotte & Trey: Closure and Takeaways

[53:27–61:19]

• The final segment analyzes Charlotte’s pattern of wanting authenticity but getting caught in cycles with Trey, who gives "just enough" to keep her engaged but remains emotionally closed.
• Kristen:

  "Every time she tries to, you know, get out, she comes at one point with a list ... and he's like, no, no, let's make out. And she's like, but no, I'm trying to talk about these things." (Kristen, 58:01)

• Dr. Coles on what really matters:

  "It's the handling of it, not the actual issue." (Dr. Coles, 56:23)

• Dr. Coles: Carrie's push–pull dynamic with Trey reflects so many real relationships, where emotional ambivalence and lack of follow-through prevent true connection.

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Notable Quotes

• On sexual openness:

  "Intimacy, both physical and emotional, that’s the whole reason that you fall in love with someone to begin with… for a whole half of that to be missing…” (Dr. Coles, 08:46)

• On societal double standards:

  "Women need to allow sexy thoughts to come in a lot more often and prioritize them...to have a healthier fantasy life and that mind-body connection." (Dr. Coles, 47:34)

• On therapy and vulnerability:

  "When it’s bad, it’s really bad." (Dr. Coles, 27:12)

• On Charlotte’s strength:

  "She does have the romantic vision, and she is really focused on a goal in a way where it might be questionable, but in the end she wants to be authentic." (Kristen, 36:25)

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Highlighted Timestamps for Key Segments

• Charlotte reveals her situation to Carrie — 08:19
• Therapist’s take on waiting for marriage — 08:46
• Main red flag: Trey's avoidance — 15:46
• Sex therapy methods & sensate focus — 28:29–30:22
• Carrie and "sex like a man" discussion — 45:45–47:34
• Society, shame, and female sexuality — 48:46–51:12
• Charlotte’s strength and 'not being a victim' — 57:18
• Push–pull, patterns, and letting go — 58:39
• Closure on Trey—handling is the core issue, not dysfunction itself — 56:23

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Memorable Moments

• Dr. Coles comparing Trey's arousal issues to "an out of control train…without the brakes." (13:29)
• Kristen reflecting on the emotional realism and pain in performing Charlotte’s vulnerability. (10:42–11:08)
• The discussion of "fantasy hygiene" and Dr. Coles’ "My Vivid Fantasy" tool for building erotic imagination. (47:37–48:46)
• Both women agreeing that authentic sex communication is braver and harder than most people admit. (27:38–28:29)

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Final Thoughts

The episode thoughtfully peels back the layers of both character and cultural expectations, reminding listeners that sexual difficulties are common, but open, nonjudgmental communication is the only way forward. The Charlotte–Trey storyline becomes a powerful lens for talking about real-life intimacy challenges, the courage required to seek help, and the ongoing quest for authenticity and connection.

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Transcript

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[Kristen Davis]

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[Kristen Davis]

Hi, I'm Kristen Davis and I want to know, are you a Charlotte? Hi, everyone. Welcome to are you a charlotte? Today we have a super fun and interesting guest. Her name is Dr. Viviana Coles. She is a licensed marriage and family therapist and a certified sex therapist with 20 years of experience. She is lovely and super smart. The main reason that I wanted her on was to talk about the whole Trey and Charlotte storyline, and she has a lot of interesting things to say about it. And then also we're going to Talk about episode 404, what Sex Got to do with it, which is directed by the wonderful Alan Coulter and written by Nicole Avril. So please join us for both episodes this week. It's really interesting. Okay.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

Hi, Kristen. Nice to meet you. Hi.

[Kristen Davis]

Thank you for joining us. Can I call you Dr. Viviana?

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

Of course. That would be great. I am. You gave me the best reason to run it back with the seasons, and they're so good. I love it. I was just finishing up another episode. I just.

[Kristen Davis]

It's so fun. Thank you. Thank you.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

Thanks for having me.

[Kristen Davis]

It's my pleasure. I mean, it's funny because, you know, obviously this was a long time ago that we filmed this, but the episodes really hold up. So it's very interesting for me to be rewatching them myself. And a lot of the times we'll just say here to ourselves when we're watching, especially this whole Trey Charlotte storyline, like, I'm trying to think to myself, like, did we Talk to sex therapists at the time, like, what.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

How.

[Kristen Davis]

What were we thinking? But also, we were in the middle of filming, right. And we were just kind of going with the scripts as they were given to us. Right. But it does really make me think of so many. So many questions I have, you know, for a sex therapist about how to handle the things that we go through in the show. And so I'm so happy for you to be here.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

I'm really happy to be here. And the other thing that I noticed is that I'm like, oh, my gosh. I was not a sex therapist at the time that these came out. So looking back and, like, being a couples therapist and a sex therapist, I'm like, just. It's a new light. So thanks for. Thanks for doing this podcast because a lot of us are probably rewatching and thinking, oh, the gems and the one liners.

[Kristen Davis]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

It's too late for a hanky.

[Kristen Davis]

I know, I know. It's true. Our writers are just so good and they really, like, there were so many things, and I need to ask them again about. Because for me, the whole Trey storyline, I knew what Charlotte wanted. I knew how much she, you know, loved Trey. I had forgotten about the different elements of the difficulty. I remember the big difficulty, but I didn't remember, like, the kind of issues and how, you know, she tried this way with the drugs magazine. She tried to get him into therapy. It didn't work, you know, but also, I also feel. And I'm wondering how you feel. I mean, I've never personally been in this situation, but I can only imagine how hard it would be to try to get a man to talk about it. It just seems like Trey is not that open, which is.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

Trey is absolutely not that open. And I actually. My heart broke this, you know, this, like, second, third time of watching these around. It felt like she was alone. She was alone in dealing with it, in talking about it and thinking about it. And at first, when she had only told Carrie she was really alone because she was so ashamed. But everything that she tried, everything that they tried, I felt like is very relevant. And people still do that. And even some aspects of what their therapist brought up, I think are still very useful in our. In our field. So, yeah, I'm excited to dive in and. And ready to go.

[Kristen Davis]

Okay. Okay. So let's just go for a second backwards in time to when, as you brought up, that she just tells Carrie in the beginning. So Charlotte has her. Her, you know, extremely romanticized ideals of what she Would like. Right. And we know, because she tells the girls, you know, I decided to wait and not have sex with him because I thought this was a different way to go.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

Marriage. Yeah.

[Kristen Davis]

Right, Right. Which. I mean, first of all, what do you make of that?

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

Okay. I would not recommend doing that. I think for so many people, if they're putting it. If they're. First of all, if they're putting sex on a pedestal, that in and of itself creates a dynamic that can cause a lot of pressure and anxiety and just mystery, but not the good kind with sex. And so when she said that, and this is, you know, the day before she gets married, and they're just appalled. I was appalled, too, because intimacy, both physical and emotional, that's the whole reason that you fall in love with someone to begin with, is to have those things in very full parts. And for a whole half of that to be missing. Yes. She said he's a great kisser. And I was like, yeah, and making out is awesome, and I love that.

[Kristen Davis]

Right.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

But it doesn't. I mean, your whole body being into the physical act and the physical intimacy and how it responds, that mind, body connection is not something that I think anybody should have a big question mark when it comes to their partnership. Right. And. And then when she shares right before she's walking down the aisle that it didn't work and he wasn't able to keep his erection, I felt so bad because the stakes are so high. And Carrie's just like, oh, my gosh, what are you doing to me?

[Kristen Davis]

I know. I also feel. I mean, when I think back on it, like. And of course, you know, you're in it. You're reading the script. You're trying to do your best you can do with the script. But it's so interesting to think through what that would actually be like. I'm so different from Charlotte in this fundamental way where I cannot ever imagine doing this in any way, shape or form. Right. And I'm. I'm.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

It.

[Kristen Davis]

It seems insane to me.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

You mean.

[Kristen Davis]

You mean waiting?

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

Not waiting.

[Kristen Davis]

All of it.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

I thought you meant going through with the marriage.

[Kristen Davis]

No, no, no.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

Like faking it or.

[Kristen Davis]

I'm not very much focused on marriage, but. But, I mean, I do think that once Charlotte wants something, she's really going to pursue it.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

Yeah.

[Kristen Davis]

And I think it's also so interesting because it's also. She's not incredibly mature herself about talking about feelings and things. Right. Like, she's. She has a lot of feelings, and I feel like she can emotionally express

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

herself, but there's like, a lens. There's this lens and this filter that is very hopeless romantic and is fairytale ish. You know? And I think waiting till marriage, whether it's a religious thing or not, is a bit of like a. Let's kick the can down the road. We'll deal with that later. And a lot of women and men think, well, everything will work out when the. When your chemistry is there or when the respect is there and the love is there, the consent is there. Everything's going to work out perfectly. And I have a practice that is predominantly full with people who have all of the best intentions, who can really emotionally connect, and physically, things are not going well for them.

[Kristen Davis]

Awful. Oh, my gosh. So. So let's just. I'm just so curious now. Okay, so what if you had a couple? Obviously, we're not going to talk about any of your actual patients, obviously, because you are a professional. So let's say you had a couple like Charlotte and Trey, where there are all of these other wonderful qualities. Right. And they do seem to really fit, and they do want the same things, and they're kind of aligned in terms of their families, you know, in some ways and whatnot. And whatnot. It's hard to. It's hard to go too deep because in some ways they're not aligned. But let's pretend at the beginning that they think they are. Right. And. And then there is some kind of a. Of a miss. Miss in terms of the physical life.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

There's a snag. Yeah.

[Kristen Davis]

What would you recommend? Like, what would you have that couple do?

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

Well, so for a lot of the couples that I do work with, one of the main things that we figure out is, is this a relational issue or is this something that is going on with the individual partner's relationship with sex, for instance? I actually don't think that Charlotte was doing anything. I don't think she really did anything wrong. I mean, she did show her disappointment, but that was mainly because he wouldn't even talk about it.

[Kristen Davis]

Right.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

So I do assess them for that. Now, with Trey, it could have been so many different things. It could have been his upbringing. It could have been that having Bunny as his mother, who. I don't know. Although she did seem to have a little freaky side because she was like, after Charlotte kissed the gardener, oh, my God. Oh, you're a McDougal now. It was like, oh, okay.

[Kristen Davis]

I know. I took that to mean, like, troubled.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

Well, like, everybody's done that. I thought Everybody's. Everybody's Cheated on their partner kind of a thing. And so I think then I would basically go into. For a lot of men who are experiencing erectile difficulties, whether it's getting an erection, maintaining an erection, delayed actual ejaculation, early ejaculation, a lot of that has to do with stress. Usually there is a lot of stress involved. And yes, that could be impacting the relationship. It could be solely having to do with their professional and providership roles. All of that. For a lot of men, though, once it happens, once the performance anxiety takes over, so then it's almost like it's just an out of control train. Right. Without the brakes. And. And we see that where he. He's willing to try, but it's almost like the minute that things aren't going well, the minute he gets into his head and that performance anxiety takes over, he's done and scoot. This. What? The schooner doesn't work anymore.

[Kristen Davis]

The sails. Yeah, I know.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

The wind is out of the sails.

[Kristen Davis]

All the little things that. That's the other thing that I think is interesting, the way that he kind of. There's a like, infantilization, which makes you wonder about, you know, the mother relationship. But also my question that I have in terms of Charlotte, because I remember when she's talking to Samantha and Samantha says, oh, he's thinking of you like his virginal wife and he needs to see you as a sexual person. And that's when we do that scene where I come and I say, I'm your wife and I love you and I'm sexual. Which I thought was so, so beautifully written and hard to do, you know, hard. Hard to do, hard to act. But also I can't even imagine in real life so vulnerable. Yeah. And I mean, as a therapist who's. Who's helping couples with these really delicate things, you know, how do you gauge. Like, when I watch it back, I think like Trey's. He means well, but he's just not really willing to delve into it at all. That's what it seems like to me. Do you feel that way when you watch it?

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

So that's the biggest red flag to me. It's not that he's experiencing the issue, it's how he's handling it and how he's making. The fact that he's not handling it and how he's treating her, attempts to try to help. That is not partnership. She's over here doing the reading about it. She's bringing it up. She's being sweet and soft. I can imagine. I've had clients who they are going to be much more direct and maybe a little brash and even mean at times, sometimes even abusive in the way that they'll talk to their partners about this. She was tiptoeing as quietly as she possibly could. And so when she came in and she had those heels on and she's got this lingerie and. And she's saying like, no, I am a sexual being. This isn't even just about you. This is about me and what you're doing to me and what you're taking away from me and my vision of what a healthy partnership looks like. If maybe, I think she was hoping, like if you can just get out of the idea that this is about you and your erection, but this is more about us and our connection. And I think it was very powerful. And now I have to say that they didn't do much talking about the fact that he was seemingly so into like really large breasts.

[Kristen Davis]

Yes.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

And that Charlotte does not. No. And you know, that is something that I think a lot of women really struggle with, especially with men who are watching a lot of pornography. Typically the pornography that they're looking at and the videos that they go in watching versus what they end up ejaculating to might be very different, but there is typically a sense of it's different, it's different than what I have at home. And a lot of women cannot reconcile that. How can you be looking at big bottomed black woman when I'm a small, petite Asian woman? You know, like, how can we do that? And that's something that I think does turn into a relational issue. So even if they're not maybe coming into the sessions with a relational issue that they know of, we have to talk through these things and really kind of unpack the baggage. And I think that Charlotte was trying to do that. She's like, well, is it this? Well, is it that? And Carrie was so sweet to offer the idea of like, well, let's see if it's a phys versus emotional, that it is true. Sometimes it is physical and there's not much they can do. There are nowadays more invasive things, but you know, if it's emotional, that's where they come in to see a certified sex therapist. Because we can really work with them to kind of peel the layers away. And there are always layers and that's okay. And. And when people seek this help, they typically get the help that they need.

[Kristen Davis]

Well, that's nice. That's good to know.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

It's hopeful. It is really hopeful. Yeah.

[Kristen Davis]

Okay, so both partners are willing and go in, which, you know, that's the question. Is Trey actually really willing to look at what he needs to look at? Unclear, right? Seems a little unclear, yeah.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

Well, he's rejected everything so far. And then all of a sudden he's like, I'll take us to counseling.

[Kristen Davis]

Right? But then. And then they start making out in cabs and he wants to have sex everywhere else.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

Everywhere but the way that she would like.

[Kristen Davis]

And I think that's so interesting. And I. I mean, I've never been married and I haven't had these issues. But like, I do feel like that's kind of an intimacy thing. That's like someone who's challenged by real intimacy. Trey.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

It is. It almost seems like he is only stimulated by something really big and flamboyant and grand. Like that's what gets the radar going and that's what causes his arousal to spike or even be. So being in a long term relationship for someone like Trey is going to be challenging in the bedroom. And he has to be willing to say, you know what? My desire to be with this person and to build a life with her is so much stronger than this particular issue that we're dealing with. And he just was not having it.

[Kristen Davis]

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O. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Meibo Perflorahexaloctane ophthalmic solution is used to treat the signs and symptoms of dry eye disease. It's the only prescription dry eye drop that forms a protective layer for the number one, too much tear evaporation so eyes can find relief. That's. Don't use if allergic to mibo. Remove contacts before using and wait at least 30 minutes before putting them back in. Eye redness and blurred vision may occur. For more info, talk to your eye doctor. Call 1-844-MEIBO yeah, or visit meibo.

[Kristen Davis]

And then at the end of this particular episode that we're gonna get to. Because this is so fascinating, I love talking to you about this because this is the kind of thing that I wish I had had time and a way to get some more insight. But then also, I think that the end result was always gonna be what it was gonna be like. This was the plan, and then it was more about kind of fleshing out how it went down over time. And we all fell in love with Kyle, and so he stayed longer than they had originally planned. And so we kind of stay in it and try different ways longer than they had originally thought we would. But, I mean, it's so interesting to hear about because I think intimacy in general is really complex and interesting. And, yes, our show's about it and about a lot of the stuff around it, but sometimes we can't dig as deep as we might like because it's a comedy, right? So, like, I love hearing the. The inner. The inner things. And, like, I have one more specific question for you, but I wanted to say the name of the title. It's called what Sex Got to Do with it, which is, of course, really funny that we're just now getting to that title in our show in the fourth season, what Sex Got to Do With It. And I think we would say pretty much everything.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

Pretty much everything. Well, here's the thing. When sex is going well in a relationship, it doesn't account for much. Most people don't even talk about it. But when it's not well, is when most people are freaked out, scared, threatened, disappointed, the anger goes through the roof. This feeling of resentment and insecurity. And so it, when it's bad, it's really bad.

[Kristen Davis]

Yeah. Yeah. I feel so, so much empathy for, for couples going through things like this because it seems so, like, if you found someone that you want to commit to and that you want to build a life with, and then there are these, these difficulties. It is just so vulnerable. To have to look at it and then to get professional help is, like, so brave, you know, but also, like, then you actually have to peel back the issues and the things and, you know, do some homework. Like, one of the things I wanted to ask you about, and I think I've seen this maybe in a movie or maybe, I don't know if it was satirized or whatever, but, like, the idea that someone would, a couple would go to a sex therapist such as yourself, and then they might get exercises like to go home and to just touch and not have sex. Is that a real thing?

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

So we call that sensate focus. It is a strategy that's been around for a long time, an intervention. I actually created a program that is much more tailored to what I see as really working in therapy. And I actually. It's called the Dr. Viviana Method for Intimate Reconnection. And it's. Over the course of six weeks, you're building on physical and emotional intimacy exercises. So just keeps adding on and adding on and building on. But the way that, like, pure sensate focuses, I don't think is ever really enough for couples Now. I think we all expect a bit more. So the idea that you would just lay and maybe be naked next to your partner and just kind of slowly caress them for like an hour. I, I, I was like, you know, it's just not realistic.

[Kristen Davis]

It's so sweet, though. It's so sweet.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

It is. It is very sweet. And I think for a lot of couples, I'm encouraging to them to do that. Like when they cuddle at night before they go to bed.

[Kristen Davis]

Yeah, that's.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

Or in the morning before they have to get up and do the day. Yeah. I'll say set a timer for five minutes and just allow each other to, like, touch and connect and, like, breathe again. You know, big spoon, little spoon. Maybe it's feet touching. I was just telling a couple, I said, y' all just rub Your feet together a little bit, you know, just kind of connect in that way. And that's. That's a version of sensate focus. But, yeah, the. The real, like, pure one is. I just think for a lot of people, it's. It's a little bit more frustrating and kind of cheesy and boring. But, you know, it comes from a good place. Of course. Put your slant on it, and I put my slant on.

[Kristen Davis]

That's really interesting. I like that so much. So. So in your program, you would start with something like that, and then you. There would be steps that you would progress through.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

So actually, you go even further back, which for a lot of people, they don't really understand why if you're going to a sex therapist, you take sex off the table. But what I find is that a lot of couples are kissing or holding hands or even having intercourse just out of habit, but they're not actually wanting it. They're not doing it, because, oh, my gosh, I. I just want to kiss you right now. And so they. These habits, and I say, no, no, we need to break off and almost, like, strip away all of the habits and routines so that the next time that this happens, it's very intentional, and it means something, and it carries more weight than. Than just a peck on the lips. Right. So it actually starts with something like an embrace, which a lot of people are like, wait, so we're just going to embrace each other for a week in the morning, in the evening, while saying something really smooth? Yes. Because a lot of people don't even hug their partners anymore. So the idea that you're holding them and you're wanting to impart a sweet sentiment that is very. It's. It's very sincere. And. And you've taken the time to stand up and hold each other while you're saying this little script. It's very short. It's just three or four lines, but it's very, very sincere. And you should. I mean, people start crying. They start crying when it. Because they're like, oh, my gosh. Even just while we're going through what they're gonna say, they start welling up. And this is both partners or one partner and the other partner's like, oh, my gosh, what's going on? It's like, I only hear this in a card once a year for our anniversary. The fact that we're gonna say this to each other, and it's sincere and we mean, it is just like, it already starts the transformation. So I always tell people, like, don't knock it. Like, let's take it back and then we can. Then you add on a kiss, and then you add on more and more and more and more. And then by week six, there's a little bit, you know, there's penetration involved. Well, that's nice to it.

[Kristen Davis]

Right.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

And it makes sense. I. I'm, you know, I'm a sex therapist, so I really do appreciate the value of sexuality within a relationship. But more importantly, I feel like there should be. Sex should make sense. It's. It's not just something that you do. It should make sense within your relationship. And if it's not making sense, for whatever reason, you gotta handle that.

[Kristen Davis]

I mean, that's so great. That's so great. And it seems so, like, yeah, who wouldn't want that? You know, like, like just, just saying sweet things and hugging each other is like, so good. But I also feel, and I've got friends who've been married like 30 years and whatnot. And I do think that there is a certain, like, risk involved when you do have a successful relationship. Right. It's not that it's unsuccessful, but maybe there's different elements that have taken over public image. Yeah.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

There is money, there's history, there are kids, there's businesses. I mean, there's just so much, so much that for a lot of my clients in particular, they're trying to preserve not just their intimate connection, but their entire lives. And it does create pressure. And that's why I'm a big fan of, like, start with premarital counseling. I had clients who I've had for their entire relationship who come in from premarital counseling, and now they're in maintenance and they come in once every three months. So this is something where you don't have to be in crisis. Yes, of course you can be. And I love a good crisis. Don't get me wrong, I, after having done this for over 22, 23 years, I'm like, give me the toughest situation because I like, I like those hard puzzles. Right?

[Kristen Davis]

Yeah.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

But do yourself a favor and go when things are okay so that you can learn to talk about things when you're not angry.

[Kristen Davis]

That's so nice. That's so good. So people would actually come to you before they're actually getting married?

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

Yes, before they're married. Even pre engagement counseling is the thing now. People are, like, much more conscientious. They, they are like, I am investing in us because I don't want to waste time. I don't want to get a Divorce, you know, after we have kids. So there's. Pre cohabitation is a big one.

[Kristen Davis]

Wow.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

Some people will come in within the first three months of dating. What? Because they don't want to. They don't want to waste their time. They're like, let's figure these things out. Red flag. Flag. Let's figure this out. They. And they don't know what they don't know.

[Kristen Davis]

Well, that's true. But it's amazing that they realize that, you know, that they're willing.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

I wish there were more. I wish that there were more. But there. There are people doing this.

[Kristen Davis]

It seems really, really smart to be doing that. It seems like a really smart thing because you're getting someone's, like, kind of eye in terms of, you know, what might be underneath something or a red flag that you're not aware of, or you're maybe like, oh, maybe. But sometimes you don't even know your. And that's as we started talking about with Charlotte. She really is alone in her own head, you know, like, what is going on? But I think her eye is so much on the prize, which is. That's kind of Charlotte's issue. Right.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

But isn't that interesting? Because as I was rewatching this episode, she could have easily done what I'm sure you and I have seen before, where it's like, okay, let me just sweep this under the rug.

[Kristen Davis]

Yeah.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

And. Oh, okay, now everything's. You know, maybe there's some functioning going on and whatever. And she could have said, gosh, this is so good on paper. Or maybe I don't need this passion. Maybe I. You know, and that is a real thing that people question when they're trying to figure out if they should stay with someone. And so it took a lot for her, I think.

[Kristen Davis]

Yeah.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

To kind of say, wait, no, but this is fake. This isn't real enough. Right.

[Kristen Davis]

No, no. And. And that's the saving grace of Charlotte. Right. Is that like. Like, she does have the romantic vision, and she is really focused on a goal in a way where, you know, it might be questionable, but in the end, she wants to be authentic. I think she's looking for authenticity, like, more and more authenticity. She's not willing to go backwards, and that's what I love about her.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

Yeah.

[Kristen Davis]

Thank goodness.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

I feel like we would have all been almost like, no, Charlotte. We would have been screaming at the screen. She was, like, kind of caving, but she didn't. And then another thing that I noticed, and the reason that it stood out to me, rewatching it is because in the very first chapter of my book, the four intimacy Styles, I talk about how, for me, yes, we all have heard, you know, sex, money and kids are the cause for most breakups or divorces. But for me, I think it's sex. But most people don't want to say it is.

[Kristen Davis]

Wow.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

But the fact that she is like, you know, as publicly conscious of her reputation, but the fact that she's able to say like, no, we have sexual issues, we have bedroom issues, I. I just thought, gosh, she was almost like ahead of her time. Because most people will not say that even though it's a hundred percent why they're divorcing.

[Kristen Davis]

No, you're so right. You're so right. And that is one thing when I'm rewatching the show. And people had said this to me over the years, but I was always like, really? Are you sure that Charlotte kind of, she, she just says truths, like out of the blue. Do you know what I'm saying? And sometimes they're uncomfortable truths, you know, And I think that's also. She's kind of a massive contradictions in a lot of ways that I. That made her fun to play for 18 million years, and that was one of them. Like, she does have the facade. Like I'm gonna have the, the upper side, good girl facade, but yet I'm actually gonna say the hard things. It's interesting. It's interesting. You ever notice how the best things in life don't make you choose? Like working in a fast paced, exciting city and then heading home to a quiet neighborhood to recharge. Or getting something high tech and smart without losing the style and comfort you actually want. That's exactly the vibe you get with Hyundai's hybrid lineup. Because with Hyundai hybrids, you don't have to trade excitement for efficiency. You get the best of both worlds. A more fuel efficient drive without changing your routine. No stopping to charge, no learning curve. Just less time at the gas station and more time enjoying the ride. And no matter what your lifestyle looks like, there's a Hyundai Hybrid that fits. Need space for family, friends, gear, or all three? Check out the Santa Fe Hybrid. It's a three row SUV that seats up to seven. With available dual wireless charging pads and available WI fi hotspot capability. It's as connected as your group chat or go with the Tucson Hybrid, A sleek versatile SUV with standard H track, all wheel drive and modern features like available wireless device charging. It's perfect for city driving, weekend errands, or a spontaneous road trip. If a sedan is more your speed, the Sonata Hybrid Limited delivers sharp performance with up to an EPA estimated 51 highway mpg or the Elantra Hybrid Limited, which combines a sporty look with up to 52 highway mpg. With every model, you're getting advanced tech, eye catching design and Hyundai's top rated safety features plus the unbeatable confidence of America's best warranty. America's best warranty claim based on total package of warranty programs. Visit Hyundai USA.com or call 562-314-4603 for more details. I am obsessed with Hill House Home, the brand behind the viral nap dress with the signature smocking that's incredibly flattering, unbelievably comfortable and so versatile. I can wear the same one running errands by day and out to dinner at night. I just got one the other day from them. It's pink, it's flowy. I love it so much. You could just put on some flip flops, whatever you want and you look great and you're totally happy and comfortable. Hill House makes fun fashion that makes you feel good, which is why celebrities like Taylor Swift, Olivia Rodrigo and Anne Hathaway and I bet Charlotte York would love it too. Get 15% off your first order of a hundred dollars or more at hillhouse home.com with the code Charlotte15again. That's Charlotte15 for 15 off at hillhousehome.com

[Podcast Host]

dry eyes still feel gritty, rough or tired. With Meibo, eyes can feel Meibo.

[Kristen Davis]

Oh yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Meibo Perfluorohexaloctane Ophthalmic solution is used to treat the signs and symptoms of dry eye disease. It's the only prescription dry eye drop that forms a protective layer for the number one cause too much tear evaporation so eyes can find relief. That's don't use if allergic to Maibo. Remove contacts before using and wait at least 30 minutes before putting them back in. Eye redness and blurred vision may occur. For more info, talk to your eye doctor, call 1-844-MEIBO yeah or visit meibo.com

[Sophia Bush]

this is Sophia Bush from Work in Progress with Sophia Bush. Bring the good with Avocados from Mexico. Upgrade your meals, your get togethers, even your everyday life. Give your moments a little glow up. Be the one everyone's glad showed up because avocados from Mexico spark the joy with every bite. And by the way, they're good for you too. So elevate your everyday. Bring the good flavor. So rich and craveable.

[Kristen Davis]

Avocados From Mexico. Always. Good. Okay, now, there's a lot going on in this particular episode with everyone else also, so let's talk about them for a second because there's some very, very interesting things for Carrie. Carrie's going out with the jazz guy now, which is very interesting and different. And she tells the girls in this episode that she has the best orgasm of her life or one of the best orgasms of her life, and that normally she has to be in love with someone for that happen. And what does it all mean? And I. I think that's really, really interesting. What do you make of this?

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

So it's. It is interesting because what I'm noticing with Carrie and the jazz guy is that she's almost like, oh, I've never really been with someone who's kind of forced me to follow along with him. Like, she's following him. She is not in the lead, really, at all. And we kind of find out why later. But he is. He's kind of like a. No, no, no. Listen to me. No, I'm doing this. You want this? I'm going to give you this. And. And he even. He takes the lead in the bedroom, and she just kind of has to be a passenger, which is kind of sexy, too, Right? Sometimes it's just nice to be a passenger.

[Kristen Davis]

Yeah.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

A passenger, princess. But I think what's great about the way that she handles it is that I love that she goes back to talk to the girls. Kind of like a. This is great and all, but there's something up, because, I mean, for somebody who's enjoying the sex as much as she is, I'm surprised she would even, like, remotely put ink into the water. Right? Yeah. And she's just kind of waiting to hear, like, what's going on with this. And they could have been, like. They could have maybe burst her bubble. They didn't, so.

[Kristen Davis]

Well, the truth is, Carrie doesn't really let anyone burst her bubble, if you've noticed, because all of us at one point are like, no more big. And yet she does what she does. You know what I'm trying to say? But, I mean, she talks to us about it, which is great. But I think it's interesting because, like, on the one hand, we've got the Trey situation, which is all complicated now. And they're trying and he's trying and, you know, whatnot. There's very clearly, like, he has kind of a, you know, difficulty being fully intimate with someone who he also wants to be with, I guess. Right. Like, he likes the drugs magazine as we discussed. And he wants to have sex in the cab and whatnot. And for, for her, it's kind of interesting also in that she's basically saying that it's a surprise to her that she doesn't know him that well. She's kind of trying to connect with him in other ways. It's not really working so well. But yet she has one of the best orgasms of her entire life, which is saying a lot. And also it does seem like it is related to the fact that she's not really trying to do anything or trying to get something from him in an interesting way.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

Right. She's not perform at all. She's not trying to seduce him. I mean, she's trying to get him to focus.

[Kristen Davis]

Right, right.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

But other than that, it's almost like she's, she's having to say, wait a minute, don't you want some sort of an emotional connection? Like, wait a minute. Right.

[Kristen Davis]

But it's kind of, it's kind of cool and interesting in a way. And it reminds me of one of our very first episodes, which is, can you have sex like a man? Can women have sex like a man? Remember this? And it was all about like, can we not have a attachments or can we just look at it as good sex in the way that men are seemingly able? And I don't know if that's even true. Do you think that's true that men and women are different in the fundamental way that we look at sex?

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

I don't know if it's a male, female thing, but I do think that societally and socially we are, we as women could learn something from men about the way that they are able to let fantasies just swirl around them all the time. And sexual thoughts. I think for women we have to compartmentalize. We tend to compartmentalize.

[Kristen Davis]

Yeah.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

And I think men are just so good about being like, oh, there's a sexy, you know, stimuli. There's, you know, there's a really good looking butt. And they almost like let these thoughts in. They let them swirl around. Sometimes they masturbate. Most of the time they don't. They can talk about it. And with women, I feel like it's very much, oh, I should not be thinking about that right now, or oh, that's wrong to say that, or why am I looking at that? It's, it's all just push, push, push. We reject these thoughts away. And I feel like that's the main difference that I see. I just, I wish, I'm not saying that we need to be like men. But I do think that women need to allow sexy thoughts to come in a lot more often and prioritize them in order to have a healthier fantasy life and that mind, body connection so that when they are in the mood or they want to be in the mood, they can access that quicker.

[Kristen Davis]

Oh, that's very interesting. That makes sense.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

Fantasy is really big. And I have something for that too, because I'm telling you, I've been doing this a long time. And I'm like, look, you're not going to see me, but come to my website. My vivid fantasy. It is a way to create your own fantasies fantasy using almost like a. It's multiple choice and it spits out something that then you can read as often as you'd like to get you in the mood. And it came from an in office activity that I used to do, especially with women who were like, I've never fantasized. I've not. Like, I don't even know what's sexy. And then I would ask them questions looking down at my. At my notebook, not giving them, you know, but asking them, like, where would you want to be touched and what would you be smelling and what would the lighting be like? And by the end of it, they're like, oh, my gosh. First of all, I'm a little hot and bothered. Second of all, I didn't know that that was in here.

[Kristen Davis]

Wow.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

And I'm like, yes, it is. But we just don't take the time to really fantasize. And now with audio erotica, it makes it so much easier with audiobooks and with, you know, we call it clitorotica and things like that.

[Kristen Davis]

I feel like that's cute.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

I feel like we're much more into it, but it's so much better when you can access it in your own brain.

[Kristen Davis]

Of course. I mean, I think that really touches on so many things. And one, and this is also just a fundamental part of our show, is trying to peel back the layers of shame put onto women by society for, you know, hundreds of years. And I feel like we want to. And culturally, we're kind of moving towards it. But then sometimes I also feel, and I'm curious your thoughts on this. When our show came out, you know, it was kind of a shocking thing, right? 1998, very shocking.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

I remember I don't even think I was allowed to watch, but I sure did.

[Kristen Davis]

Yay. And now it's less shocking, right? But still, when you look at the episode, some of the things are still like, oh, no, that's still happening. But I was talking to someone. We were talking about the naked dress in the first season, and we were just laughing about the way red carpets are now. Like, basically, people just don't even wear clothes. I mean, it's bizarre, right? Like, it's bizarre sometimes. And hopefully we've gone. We've gone all the way we can go in that area now. We might be coming back. But I sometimes wonder about, like, the realness is almost like a performative freedom, you know, for women in a way. Like, I don't know, I don't feel like. Like, for instance, what you're talking about, about almost just giving yourself permission to fantasize and think the sexual thoughts that one might have during the day, just as a normal human being. Right. That men allow themselves to do, but women still have to kind of teach themselves to allow. Like, let those things happen. Let your mind go.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

And that it doesn't have to be in public. It doesn't have to be performative. You don't have to let the whole table know you can. Right. Y', all. Sex in the City taught us that you absolutely can. And you might get looks from the other table. Most of the time you won't. But that it doesn't have to be something that you're doing for someone else's benefit, especially if you're thinking about it from the male gaze. G A Z, E. I don't encourage women to do that for the sake of their partner. It's for you. Your brain is your largest sexual organ. If you're using it, awesome. If you're not, you're missing out on some stuff. So it's not for only to be in a partnered relationship. It's not only to satisfy your partner's needs, but really to tap into something that is already in you, within you, and is a part of you, just like every other part of your body.

[Kristen Davis]

Really interesting. Yeah, really, really interesting. And I do feel like this work kind of just continues culturally. Right. Like, we're just kind of just trying to deepen it out. And you're seeing it in people's specific lives, how it's playing out, which is so interesting.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

Yeah. And then. And then to see it on screen in so many different ways, it's like they're all case studies. Every single one night stand, every single relationship, every single friendship, all of that. It's to me now, looking back and re watching these episodes, they're all case studies, and I love it because a lot of them, I'm like, these Writers. Who. Who were they talking? Who were they consulting with? Well, sex therapist.

[Kristen Davis]

The writers were putting their own stories in or stories of a friend, so it could be once removed. Right. But they had to have some personal knowledge of something that was happening. Now, sometimes, like in the instance of the Trey situation, no one ever confessed to me whose story that was. And I don't know if it was particularly anyone's, because most of our writers at this point in time, we had Jenny Bakes, one of our writers, on the other day, and she was saying, like, all of them. I can't remember what she said exactly, were like, criminally single or whatever. Like, they could not. Cause we were just working so much, you know, so the writers. Because the writers were very difficult. Right. And they were with us all the time on the set. You know, it wasn't like they would write and turn it in and not come. They were like, with us, which was wonderful, but they weren't able. They weren't really to the point in their lives where they had successful relationships. It was more them trying to date and try to figure things out. And then later on they did and wrote some of those things in. But, like, the Trey thing, I think we were creating the Trey storyline as time went on because we kept Kyle longer than the original idea. So they're just trying to kind of figure out, well, what would the problems be? And, you know, being, I think, super creative about it, you know, in terms of, you know, people might have these problems, but then also might not know how to handle them. And we're so hampered. Both characters, Charlotte and Trey, are hampered by kind of their ideals and what they're trying to kind of. Of hold up.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

Well, and their pride. Right. There's pride involved. There's ego.

[Kristen Davis]

Yeah.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

You know, he starts kind of. It's like. I don't even know how to describe the talk that he's giving his Johnson when it's like when he's trying to give himself a pep talk, and he's like, yeah, look, I'm like. And he's so into the fact that he's got this erection finally, that is maintaining. And she's at this point like, oh, my gosh, this is not even going to be about us.

[Kristen Davis]

Right. That's sad. It makes me sad.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

It's sad. But that happens, too. You get someone who has this reawakening sexually or for the first time ever within a relationship, and their partners can sometimes feel insecure about that, and it can sometimes feel like, well, wait, it seems like I'm now your toy. I'm now your tool. You know? And I think. Think for her, it was almost like a. Wait, am I even here? Like, does it matter that it's right? You know?

[Kristen Davis]

Right. Right. No, I think that's very, very true. And I think. I mean, in this particular episode is when she's like, you know, when she leaves because he wants her to measure his. His penis or whatever. And. And she's like, I hope you and Peanut, you and your penis have a wonderful night. Like, it's just like, oh, my gosh.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Kristen Davis]

It's all about that now.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

You know, it's all about that now. And she's like, oh, my gosh, this isn't gonna be our sex life. This is now gonna be you being performative for yourself because you've missed out on so many years. Well, that's not my. That's not my issue. That's not my thing now.

[Kristen Davis]

Right? Because she wants connection. She's trying to connect to him deeply, make love.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

She wants to have passion. And that's kind of been something that has just.

[Sophia Bush]

Just.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

It's. It's like just out of reach for Trey and Charlotte.

[Kristen Davis]

So painful.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

Out of reach. It is. And you're like, is this. Are they ever gonna get it together? And then it's very clear in this episode, like, no.

[Kristen Davis]

Well, but then at the end, he asked her to. To move back in. What did you think when that happened? Were you like, no, Charlotte?

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

No, I'm like, no.

[Kristen Davis]

Because, you know. You know, the reality of this.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

The reality is that she's now signing up for probably a lot of doubt, right? There's going to be. He's going to feel like, well, what if it happens again? And then she's going to wonder how, you know, oh, no, we're starting all over again. And that can happen with lots of different dynamics in relationships where you're like, I'm seeing the same. I'm seeing these. These signs again. And I think. I think the way that he. And more importantly, the way that he handled the entire sexual issue for the duration of their marriage, however short lived, was that was such a red flag, right?

[Kristen Davis]

That the handling of it, not the actual issue.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

Handling it.

[Kristen Davis]

Because, I mean, if.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

Even if he had said, I know that this is a big deal, I just don't know how to deal with it or I'm so embarrassed, or how. Why would you want to be with somebody who's dealing with this? I mean, anything that points back to I care. Right? That would have made such a big difference Right, right.

[Kristen Davis]

And he doesn't really say things like that, does he? No, he doesn't. Oh, my gosh. I know. I mean, it's so hard for me to watch it because I want Charlotte to get what Charlotte wants. Right. Because I did live, live that storyline. And so when he comes to the door with her engagement ring again and kind of proposes. Cause remember, she proposed in the beginning, which I also do think, like, there is a way that you can look at their whole relationship as being somewhat her doing because she was so focused on that goal of marriage. Yeah.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

I mean, again, having had the opportunity to go through and see very now much more focused on just their storyline. She's not a victim. No, no, no, she's not a victim.

[Kristen Davis]

No, no.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

But I think she had good intentions. She thought. She thought. He just needs a little prompting manipulation there, you know, with the touching and the. And, And. And she, you know, learning it from Bunny, who does it best. But it was just very interesting that she's. She's getting what she wants, but it. But not. Not the exact way that she envisioned it. That's her shame. Right.

[Kristen Davis]

And. And I think. I mean, I think it's so great, like, just for who. Who she is as a character. It's so perfectly crafted that, you know, she feels. Yeah, it's very poetic and also just so. Also painful that it plays out how it does over time. And yet he gives her just enough that she stays in. Like, every time she tries to, you know, get out, she comes at one point with a list. This is a couple episodes back or maybe the end of Thursdays. And she's like, I have a list and we've got to talk about these things. And he's like, no, no, let's make out. And she's like, but no, I'm trying to talk about these things. It's like, Like, I. I've really been there, you know? Yeah.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

It's the push, pull. And that exists in so many relationships. And sex is often the catalyst to feeling like, wait, what are we building off of? You know, every time I go to talk to you about something important, you kind of blind me with your sexual prowess or, you know, you make me feel so good that it's. It's like, oh, all is forgiven.

[Kristen Davis]

Right.

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

But it. But that said, he's not the villain either. There's no. I mean, it's. He is just immature, and I think he's so kind of ambivalent about things. And I think that's just his upbringing and probably, you know, being A doctor. A medical doctor that he's playing a medical doctor. I feel like there is this sense of black and white. There is this sense of. Or he may have known this is a much bigger issue and he just didn't want to face it.

[Kristen Davis]

Right. Like, when you say the word ambivalence, I mean, that's the perfect word because it. Like in the scenes where Charlotte's just trying so hard and he's just got that wall up, you know, oh, it was so painful. And I've just been there in so many different ways. Not. Not around this particular thing. But, I mean, I'm. I'm sure all the women listening and men too, right? Like, you know, when you're just trying so hard to. To not be mean, to not, you know, shame in any way, to not

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

to not let those walls go up.

[Kristen Davis]

Right?

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

Like, let me, you know, let me just be a little tiptoe and let me just be sweet and. And open. And she does that. And I mean, I. I know that they were able to share her frustration and they were able to show that she's like, she really cares and she's really frustrated to not get any of that from his side. There's such a stark contrast. I know she cares. He doesn't. She wants to do something about it. He is shutting it down. He's. He obviously knows that something's going on, but he's not addressing it. And you're like, okay, well, maybe all of that will come together and he'll. When he thinks he's going to lose her. Right? That's when most people are going to try. When he thinks he's going to lose her maybe, right? But not really.

[Kristen Davis]

I know it's so hard and so relatable just in terms of those. Those relationships that you want to make work, but yet there is just a lack of some commitment on both sides. Equal follow through, right?

[Dr. Viviana Coles]

It's the follow through. And I'm glad that at some point she realized, like, I can't do this all alone.

[Kristen Davis]

I know she's strong. She's strong. Like, I mean, she already tried to leave it once. Like when they're. When they're out at, you know, when she makes out with the gardener and she's like, yeah, we should separate. I was like, wow, Charlotte, brave. But obviously it doesn't last. But I. I totally get it, because who wouldn't want to try? I mean, I get it, you guys, this so much fun that we are going to have to have a part two. So join us later in the week on Rus Charlotte. I am obsessed with Hill House Home, the brand behind the viral nap dress with the signature smocking that's incredibly flattering. Unbelievably comfortable and so versatile. I can wear this same one running errands by day and out to dinner at night. I just got one the other day from them. It's pink, it's flowy. I love it so much. You could just put on some flip flops, whatever you want, and you look great and you're totally happy and comfortable. Hill House makes fun fashion that makes you feel good, which is why celebrities like Taylor Swift, Olivia Rodrigo and Anne Hathaway and I bet Charlotte York would love it too. Get 15% off your first order of a hundred dollars or more at hillhouse home.com with the code Charlotte15 again, that's Charlotte15 for 15% off at hillhousehome.com dry

[Podcast Host]

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[Dr. Viviana Coles]

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[Kristen Davis]

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[Podcast Host]

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