Cindy Crawford (16:00)

Oh, God.

Kristin Davis (16:01)

So I go to, like, this salon on Madison Avenue, and they had a booklet that you had to go through and, like, pick out, like, a haircut. So I was like, I guess this one. So I picked that weird haircut that I have. It's like, here. It's like a very halfway haircut. But I was so scared that that guy was gonna cut my hair in the trailer at work, which seemed really, like, not a good idea. So I get this haircut, and then I remember Sarah Jessica being like, what happened to your hair? And I was like, that dude made me cut it. She was like, what? And then I realized, like, this is who I need to talk to about things. Then I get there. He doesn't like my haircut, and he wants me to put this massive velvet scrunchie on the back of my head. It's literally, like, as big as my face. And I'm like, sarah Jessica? No. Cause at that point, I realized that you need to run things by her. She's gonna help you. So I'm like, he wants to put this scrunchie on my head. She was like, no. No scrunchies. No banana clips. We're in Manhattan. And I'm like, okay. Thank God. Right? So I've got that strange little, like, flip in that. Oof. That first scene when I'm talking to camera. Oh, gosh. It's not good. It's not good. And then, thank goodness, they put my hair up. I think for the rest of it, at least for the date, they put my hair up. I can't remember for the Chinese restaurant. But, I mean, that was stressful. So after that, I grew my hair out, you know, thank goodness. And I think at that point and this, the other. I mean, I don't even know when I should get into the rewatching. But when we rewatch, I say that I live at 4th and Bank. When did Charlotte ever live at 4th and Bank? I'm like, oh, my God, I'm in the Village. I was in the Village and I didn't even know it. And that's like, a dream address. I'm like, maybe they asked Kristen where she'd like to live. And I would have said Fourth and Bank, but I had no idea. Charlotte's Upper east side, Upper west side. I was Upper west side then I was Upper east side. But, I mean, it's all very interesting. But the main thing I wanna say from that is that we didn't know what we were, in a way. Do you know what I mean? Like, it seems now kind of like we did. And I think Sarah Jessica did, but I didn't know at all what we were. You know, I remember thinking, like, I've got to walk around and look at the women and try to figure out, like, who these characters are. And I also knew that Charlotte, in the book Sexnicity, wasn't really. She wasn't prominently featured, and she wasn't like a through line. And later on, I found out that she was based on different people. So Candace had kind of compiled different stories of different friends of hers. Into one person. Which is why when you read the book, you're kind. Like, in the book, I think Charlotte takes psychedelics and goes roller skating. Like, what? You know what I'm saying? So I remember just being like, huh, that's really interesting. But I was just trying to navigate. And I'm wearing that short skirt when you first see me. What on earth. I mean, that's definitely a Melrose Place. You know, that's what we wore predominantly. But I'm just like, oh, my God. But it was 97 also, so anyway. And we didn't have pat feelings. So many things. I remember so many things. I remember meeting Cynthia. I had seen Cynthia when she was doing two plays on Broadway across the street from each other. And I had read an article about her in the New York Times and thought, like, this woman, oh, wow, she's got the life, you know, she's incredible. And she was so good in these two plays. The real thing. And hurly burly, like, incredible actress. So I was very kind of, like, starstruck in a way. And CYN had a baby, Sam, at the time. And I was like, aren't you nervous? I remember she had, like, a little picture of Sam on her notebook. I said, aren't you nervous to go to work? And she was like, no. And I was like, this woman's cool. She's so cool and fascinating, right? She's like, no. What do you mean? I'm like, okay, all right, all right. So it's fascinating. And I remember meeting Kim. I think I'd met Kim in Vancouver. There's, like, one hotel when you work in Vancouver. All the actors stay in. But I hadn't really talked to her. And then we were in it. Cause I think we were staying in the same hotel. I think remember being in an elevator with her and talking about Jazz. I mean, it was so long ago. So long ago. But I mostly remember, in terms of all of us being together, would be the scene in the pilot when we're in the Chinese restaurant that I guess is Miranda's birthday, which is also funny. Didn't remember that. That was really the only time in the pilot that we're together in the way that we come to be together, obviously, as part of the show. And I remember that day super well. I was super excited to get to work with everyone. And I remember Sarah Jessica called me to her trailer. She's like, come, come with me. And she had this huge thing of Krispy Kreme doughnuts. And I grew up in South Carolina, where Krispy Kremer from. And I was like, first of all, how is this tiny, tiny little actress eating Krispy Kreme doughnuts? And second of all, hallelujah. Because none of that was happening at Melrose Place, right? I was like, we're gonna eat donuts. Oh, my God. And we chatted, and she was to ask me questions about myself and was just so incredibly sweet. And then we went into the scene, and it was really, you know, we've got the, you know, drag queens and the crazy Chinese things, and it was like, so many people, and it was so different from anything in the Melrose World and really fun and exciting. And at that point, that's when I remember the talking to the camera thing. So I don't know if you all remember, we used to talk to the camera. That was like a part of the pilot that was really interesting and very different. And it was just on the page. So I don't remember as a person thinking, like, should this be here? Should this not be here? I just remember it being very hard to do, like, when I had to be like, you know, these men are threatened by successful women, and so you just have to be quiet and play the game or something. I say, like, so hysterical. But, like, the fact that you would actually look in the camera was so. For an actor, right? Like, you were like, am I on a commercial? What am I doing? What am I doing? And I feel to some extent that what I remember about the Chinese restaurant scene was Sarah Jessica talking to Darren about it. Because there is some kind of debate about how much should she talk to the camera or in what way should she talk to the camera? Especially if we were in a group scene, like, in what way would she turn and just start talking to the camera? Like, it was strange to break the fourth wall in that way. And she seem to feel at the time, I remember, not super comfortable with it. And I remember watching her talking to Darren about it and thinking, like, this woman is so strong in herself and knows herself so well and is talking to him in such a great way of, like, an equal footing in terms of the creative process. And I hadn't really seen that. I hadn't really been around that. I mean, maybe in theater I had, but not. Not in television up to that point. And she really was really just trying to navigate her own way to make it organic. Because it's a really odd thing. Like, you're in a scene, you're doing your regular acting, and then you have to turn and be like, blah, blah, blah, blah, Blah. It was a strange, strange thing. And I knew at the time that she was uncomfortable. So when I was going to do this podcast, you know, I have obviously talked to everyone about it in our world and they have given their blessing. And I. I said, you know, I just want to check in with you about the talking to the camera, because I remember that day at the Chinese restaurant, and I remember you and Darren kind of negotiating how it would go or how much. And she reminded me of a couple things that I would never have remembered. One is that she felt really uncomfortable about it because she felt like it's really hard to do. It's hard to make it organic because you are in a scene. And also this one I hadn't remembered. Matthew Broderick, her husband, had done it in Ferris Bueller. And Ferris Bueller's Day off, in case you haven't seen it, is a huge classic film that was, you know, a touchstone for all, all of us as we were growing up. Like, it was a formative kind of a viewing experience. So for Sarah, she felt like, well, Matthew did this so brilliantly. How am I gonna live up to that? Which, of course, I would never remember that, and probably no viewer would remember that. But it makes perfect sense when you think about it, because that was an inherent part of Ferris Bueller's Day off, right? That you're kind of with the Ferris character going through it all and he's just talking to you in this kind of like, kind of smart aleck, adorable, charming, Matthew way. And I think Sarah felt like that was too hard to do for an entire show, you know, and it's a good point. It's a lot. It's a lot of her talking to the camera. I only had to do it a tiny bit. And I remember it being very hard. So that was really interesting for me to think about. But then the other thing, I don't even know if I should get into this yet or whatever, but, like, all the other people talking to the camera and the fact that you don't even see the rest of us for so long, I had forgotten all these things till I. And then also Sarah Winter, who's kind of our guest star, and her storyline is so fascinating, and then we never find out what happens. I'm like, what happened to that character? She's just gone. She got ghosted by this guy. Oh, no. Where is she? Is she okay? Why don't we ever talk about her anymore? Like, it's super fascinating. You know, I've forgotten all that. We're gonna talk to Sarah in a.

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Kristin Davis (27:32)

I haven't seen the pilot in probably, I mean at least 20 years, maybe more, because I was never a fan of the pilot. I was like, I don't know about the pilot. I knew in my gut that the show was a living, breathing thing that we should do and that I should be on it as well as everyone else. But I didn't. When I saw the pilot, I was like, I don't know in terms of a pilot, right? Cause back then we were in more networky television. It was a different vibe. And when you see our show, it is also a different vibe. Like it's kind of rough. Like when they go to Chaos, which I'm not in that scene. Everyone always asks me about chaos. And I'm like, I don't remember chaos. That's because I wasn't there. Chaos is a mess. You're like, what's happening here? Like, did they just take a camera in there and film people? Like, it's messy and interesting. I mean, very, very different from network tv. Very different. I guess part of my response to the pilot back then was that it didn't seem polished, it didn't seem smooth. It seemed kind of choppy and hectic. But I also feel my personal theory on pilots in general is that if they're too good, if the pilot is too formed, the show might not be good. Like, what you want in a pilot is like a spark, like something like a fissure, like an energy. And then the show can run on that and you can form it into something like clay. And then you can form it into something if you have the right creative people and if you have a network who will allow you to form it. Which luckily we did in hbo, thank God. Because we really. We went on such a course of, you know, finding each character and the show's vibe, you know, over the years, really. And it's actually still a journey, which is amazing and amazing that we've been allowed to do that. But I remember watching the pilot myself at the time, and the scene that I remembered and loved, and I feel like everyone feels this way, is the last scene with Meg and Carrie in the car and when she gets out. And first of all, the Village, I mean, it's unrecognizable. Okay? The city in general. You're just like, I can't even believe it's changed as much as it's changed. I mean, it's still glorious, but it's just. It was like. It looks like the 70s almost. Do you know what I mean? That's a little. A little questionable to say. And people who are in New York in the 70s might disagree with me. But, I mean, it's rough looking. It's fascinatingly rough looking, except for the Met stairs, of course. Very glamorous. But Sarah on the street, and we used to film in Super 16, which is very different than how we film now. So it's got a kind of a rougher quality to the actual film stock. And it's just so interesting. Like an indie film. It reminds me of an indie film and also an indie film in terms of, like, you're here, you're there. There's not a lot of explanation there's not a lot of backstory. People are just talking to you and then you're in chaos and people are smoking cigars. And like, it's a very interesting and slightly chaotic situation. But really, I wanted to know more. Like, when I watched it last night, I'm like, I wanna know all about Miranda. I feel like Miranda in that suit with that hair, eating, you know, like, calling Skipper Skippy. And then she pushes up against the wall. I don't remember any of this. I obviously wasn't there when they filmed it, but I was like, I wanna go with her. Like, what's her job? What's she doing? And I guess it said corporate lawyer. But, like, I wanna follow her there. She's super fascinating and funny and weird. And then Samantha is so sophisticated and powerful. You know, this is my other thought when I was watching the show, I was like, the three of them are very powerful. Charlotte, not so powerful. Not so powerful at all. Charlotte's like a puppy, you know? I really was like, this is super fascinating. So I have this other story. So I told you about testing and I had this big, big deal. It was like, big, thick, seven year deal. When we're doing the pilot, this producer, I think she was like a maybe a line producer. Like, not an executive producer. One day I'm in my trailer and she comes to my trailer and she knocks on my door and I open it and I, you know, yes. And she says, oh, we have this paperwork we need you to fill out. And I was like, okay. I take the paperwork and I look at it and it seems to be like a new contract, but it's only two pages long. I'm like, what is this? And it says, like, you know, you will be a recurring character and you will be paid $5,000. And I was like, what? What? So I called my lawyer. I'm like, jason, he's still my lawyer. I'm like, jason, he just gave me this new paperwork. What do I do? He said, do not sign it. I was like, but. But they're gonna ask me. What am I gonna say? Cause I'm a good girl, you know, I'd like to do my things right? And he's like, just. Just say you forgot it. Say you forgot it. And I'm like, okay, what is going on? He said, I don't know. I'm gonna find out. I'll call them. I don't know. I know that the pilot's costing a lot and that they're stressed at HBO about it. I like, 2.5 million roughly. Which at the time was a lot, because no one really filmed in Manhattan, right? When you look at it, it does not look like it cost a lot, but I think just being in the locations we were in cost a lot. So I was like, oh, God. Oh, Jesus. What are they trying to do to me? What's happening? I was so stressed, and then I was just like, I'm just not going to mention this to anybody else. I'm just going to pretend like everything's fine, you know? But inside, I was really, really nervous about it, and I didn't know what it meant. Darren didn't say anything to me about it. So I thought, well, if Darren's not saying anything to me about it, then everything must be okay. I don't know. I was scared. But it was also very clear from the book and from the script and from the pilot that Charlotte's point of view was a different point of view than the other girls. And not that they all shared the exact same point of view. They don't. But when we do have that group scene about trying to have sex like a man, and I'm like, what? You know, and I make crazy faces, you know, like, what? Rose romance, you know, it's very clear that I'm on a different trajectory. And you do kind of think, like, how did Charlotte get to be friends with these girls? Like, this is interesting, right? But I do feel like that is how friend groups are. Like, you're gonna have a variety of friend groups. I always thought that was weird through the years when people would bring that up to me, like, why are you friends with them? I'd be. Why wouldn't I be friends with them? Right? They're fascinating. They're interesting. I think Charlotte was trying to, like, learn from them or, you know, hopefully some of that would rub off on her or whatever. But honestly, when I looked back on, I was like, well, now I. I do think they were trying to save money, but I also think that they were like, well, she's so different. And the other three are kind of powerful, like, in control, trying to navigate this relationship thing where we're talking about these issues and, you know, can women have sex like men and not have feelings? You know, like, what does it mean to be ghosted? You know, why are there so many incredible single women and all these toxic bachelors? Like, I get all of the points. And then to have Charlotte be kind of this looking for love, you know, naive character, which obviously I knew she was. It is different. It is definitely different. But in my Gut. I felt like it was really important to have this other character. So even though I was super stressed about this weird paperwork thing, I did feel like, no, no, they need me. You know, I felt inside that they needed me. And I'm so happy that I did, because obviously it could have really gone wrong, right? Like, anyone can get recast or cut out or at any time in our business, but in my gut, I didn't feel like that would happen. And I'm so thankful that I. That I didn't and that I had faith in myself. I really am unsure why in some ways, you know what I'm saying? Like, I wasn't the most super confident person or whatever, but I do feel like when things come to you and you have something that connects with that and you have something that you want to be able to express or. Or create or whatever, and something that you want to be a part of. Because I know I desperately wanted to be a part of it. Like, I. I thought it was, like, the most incredible job ever, you know? And when I watch that group scene, all I see is how much I want to connect with them, you know, how much I want to be with them and fit in. Which is kind of heartbreaking in a certain way. But also, that is kind of Charlotte, you know, that is kind of, in a way, like, she wants to be loved. She wants to find love. She wants to have love with her girlfriend. She wants to connect, you know, And I do relate to that still. But when I look back on it, I'm like, wow. I was like a floppy puppy. And they're like sophisticated power, you know, Like Samantha. I mean, I was just like, she's like a purring cat of power. And, you know, like, she's in there using her tools, and Kim does it so well. And then Miranda is like an awkward power, you know what I'm saying? Like, and then Carrie, I forgot this whole scene where she goes to try to have sex with Bill Sage's character and gets out of bed and is like, you know, good luck. He's like, what about me? And she's like, nevermind. And she gets out of bed. I was like, wow, I totally forgot about this. How incredible. But I do remember that we were. It was, you know, shocking in many ways to be talking about sex in this kind of open way at the time. And I remember that we were nervous about the response. Like. Like, would women like it? Like, we were trying to make it for women, but we were like, are they going to be turned off? Because I do Think there's a lot to think about in terms of, like, the male gaze and how, like, at that time in films, there was a lot of sexuality, but it was from the director's point of view or the male actors. Like, it was from the male gaze, not necessarily from empowering women. I mean, with a few exceptions. Like, I can think of, like, that Melanie Griffith movie in Manhattan. What was it called? Do you remember? Sidebar. We'll figure it out later. Working girl. Working girl. Good job. Good job. Working girl. Working girl. Incredible. Like, there were, like, here and there, little people. And we talk about the last seduction. We talk about that in the film. And that was also, like, a super powerful female character. Linda Fiorentino, remember her? You're too young anyway, you know, like, there were things here and there where the women were powerful kind of sexual beings, but there was no TV show like that at all, right? So, like, from that perspective, I think about how amazing it was to be a part of it and how much fear we had about the response of it to it, you know, but also how incredible that we got to do it, you know, and how far everything has come. But yet, when you look back, we don't use the term ghosting, but obviously Sarah Winters character is ghosted before we had a term for it, which is always a very perplexing thing and still very much something, you know, we discuss in. In. In our culture. And then also, you know, can women have sex like men? I mean, I think it's a valid question. I do feel like that part of the conversation has definitely come a long way. Like. Like, I feel like, you know, the casual hookup became very, like, acceptable in a certain way, in a more kind of equal men and women way, which is great, but wasn't true in the 90s. I don't feel like. I mean, it might have been true, but I don't know that we were open about it, you know? But anyway, I think those things are super fascinating, and those were the two big themes of the show. And then also, I mean, I thought so many things watching the show, but one of the things I thought was, like, every male character in the show is awful. Okay? They're awful. Why do we even want to date them? Why? Why? And thank God we wrote Toxic Bachelor on each one, because all of them. All of them, even Skipper, I mean, he's just. I don't know. I'm not. I'm not buying the Skipper of it all. I hadn't really remembered the Skipper of it all. I just love how Miranda is with him where she's just like Skippy, you know, it's just so funny. But I mean, it's super fascinating. All of it, all of it. And then, I mean, there's so many other things that I've left out. For one thing, I just want to talk about Sarah Jessica. We're going to have a little Sarah Jessica talk right now. She's got her brown hair. Love it. I love it so much. I know we had to go blonde, but like to see her brown hair, curly, natural. And her eyes, my good Lord, like, thank God we built an empire on this woman. She is incredible. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, I was floored. I had not watched this thing in so long. And her ease and grace and like also intelligence and depth, right? But like the scene on the street where she meets Big and she drops the condoms. But then also when she's leaving, you know, she almost like she has to fix her skirt behind her. Like her physical comedy is so brilliant, but also subtle. And then also like when she has the scene with Bill Sage where she's like, oh my God, I forgot Willie. Oh my God, when Willie comes on the screen, I might cry. Sorry. But you know, he's so young and he's so beautiful and I really had forgotten, you know, sorry. But I had to stop. When I was watching it, I was like, oh my God, we were just little, little babies, you know, and he's so funny and their relationship is so great and they had been friends for so long. So I love it that it's on camera. I have to stop this for a little second.

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Kristin Davis (42:07)

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Kristin Davis (42:47)

In the scene, I was thinking about the scene that Willie and Sarah are in together, and. And, you know, he's telling her, like, don't go talk to him. And she's like, no, no, I. You know, I'm doing research. And she's so seductive and funny and, like, her eyes. I'm like, well, who could say no to her? Like, who could say no to her? She's incredible. So that was fun to watch. Like, I don't know that. I. I think I was just like, I'm just gonna do everything she tells me to do. Like, that's what I feel like at the time when I met her, you know, she seemed so much more sophisticated. And, I mean, she, frankly, just is more sophisticated than I am. And I just remember thinking, like, whatever she says, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna try to do it. Like, if she says to grow my hair out, I'm gonna grow my hair out. You know, if she says to wear longer shirts, I'm gonna wear longer skirts. I'm just gonna try to do whatever she says. And I did, which is great. But it's really funny to look at everything she brings and how she shifted the role of Carrie to kind of suit her. But also, she made her more kind of like every woman in a way. I mean, I know this is obviously debatable, and the show goes on a long time and everyone has opinions about Carrie, but, you know, she's so fascinating. And I don't think that our whole trajectory would ever have worked if Sarah had played less. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, she added so much depth and thinking. Like, her intelligence shows through in so many ways because she is a columnist and she is thinking about, well, why this and why that. And, you know, she is the reason that we could all deepen out, you know, because if she hadn't brought that, then the rest of us wouldn't have been able to do that. So I thought about that, watching it. Like, it's a pretty incredible performance, even in the messiness of us trying to find ourselves. And her apartment. Oh, my God, I still can't get over that apartment and what I think it was. Cause, I mean, obviously we changed to the Perry street apartment, which was not supposed to be in Perry Street. It was supposed to be the Upper east side, which is where Candace actually lived. And Candace, I believe, did actually live over a coffee shop. Remember they show that neon sign of the coffee shop and then that really, really, incredibly messy apartment. I mean, it's super interesting, but I was shocked. I do not remember it being that, that dark and that messy. And I'm really glad that we changed it. Okay, so as you can see, I have many stories. I have stories for days. Stories for days. And I look forward to telling them all to you. But I also have an exciting guest. We're gonna bring the very first guest star, Sarah Winter in to talk to me. She's the very first face that you see in the pilot and she's so lovely and I have such fond memories of her and I can't wait to see her again. And that is gonna be on our next episode of are you a Charlotte? And I think we're going to ask Sarah, are you a Charlotte? Let's ask her. Let's find out. Thanks for being with me.

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Cindy Crawford (47:21)

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