Alison Wood Brooks (on the science of conversation)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Episode Title: Alison Wood Brooks (on the Science of Conversation)
Release Date: February 19, 2025
Host: Dax Shepard
Guest: Dr. Allison Wood Brooks, Behavioral Research Scientist and Professor at Harvard Business School

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Introduction

In this enlightening episode of Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard, host Dax Shepard is joined by Dr. Allison Wood Brooks, a renowned behavioral research scientist and professor at Harvard Business School. Dr. Brooks, the author of Talk: The Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves, delves deep into the intricacies of human conversation, exploring its scientific underpinnings and practical applications in everyday life.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Allison Wood Brooks (00:44) – "We take for granted conversation. We think we're just going to show up and be able to do it."

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The Complexity of Conversation

Dr. Brooks emphasizes that conversation is far more complex than it appears on the surface. Despite starting conversations in early childhood, mastering the art of meaningful dialogue requires deliberate effort and understanding.

Key Points:

• Innate vs. Learned Skill: While humans begin learning to converse in toddlerhood, becoming proficient involves navigating countless social cues and emotional nuances.
• Mental Load: Conversations involve continuous decision-making about topics, tone, and responses, often without conscious awareness.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Allison Wood Brooks (22:21) – "When you look under the hood of what's going on during conversation, it is remarkably complex."

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Conversation as Coordination Games

Drawing parallels between conversation and game theory, Dr. Brooks explains how conversations function as a series of coordination games where participants must align their intentions and responses without explicit communication.

Key Points:

• Game Theory Basics: Introduction to concepts like the Prisoner's Dilemma and Coordination Games, illustrating how individuals make strategic decisions in interactions.
• Focal Points: Just as in Thomas Schelling’s experiments, conversations rely on shared focal points to coordinate effectively (28:08).

Notable Quote:
Dr. Allison Wood Brooks (38:00) – "Conversation is just like those coordination games that the game theorists were studying back in the 1950s."

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Identical Twins and Self-Awareness

A unique aspect of Dr. Brooks' research involves her experiences as an identical twin. This personal perspective offers insights into self-awareness and the external observation of one’s behavior through a twin.

Key Points:

• External Self-Awareness: Being able to observe a twin provides an external mirror, enhancing one’s understanding of personal behaviors and social interactions.
• Genetic Influences: Despite identical genetics, twins can exhibit different behaviors and personalities, highlighting the interplay between nature and nurture.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Allison Wood Brooks (07:16) – "When you're a twin, you get to see one of your sort of selves, outspoken side of your body. It's an amazing, lucky life."

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Skills for Better Conversations

Dr. Brooks introduces actionable strategies to enhance conversational skills, structured around the acronym T.O.L.K. These techniques aim to move beyond superficial small talk to more meaningful and engaging dialogues.

1. Topics (T)

• Starting with Small Talk: Necessary as a conversational entry point but should be swiftly navigated towards more substantial topics.
• Avoiding Conversation Lulls: Prolonged small talk can lead to awkward pauses and disengagement.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Allison Wood Brooks (46:28) – "The problem isn't with the small talk itself, but people get trapped there too long."

2. Asking Questions (O)

• Power of Questions: Asking sincere, follow-up questions fosters deeper connections and reveals more about the conversation partner.
• Avoiding Boomerang Questions: Ensuring questions invite genuine responses rather than turning the focus back solely onto oneself.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Allison Wood Brooks (52:17) – "Questions have the beautiful power. You get that reward almost instant because they're gonna tell you stuff."

3. Levity (L)

• Incorporating Humor: Balancing serious topics with humor can enhance rapport and make conversations more enjoyable.
• Humor and Power: Utilizing humor can subtly establish leadership and confidence within a conversation.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Allison Wood Brooks (70:08) – "Even one joke or one moment where you make other people laugh in a conversation means you're much more likely to be voted as the leader of the group."

4. Kindness (K)

• Respectful Language: Using positive language and addressing people by their names shows respect and fosters a sense of worthiness.
• Active Listening: Demonstrating genuine interest through verbal acknowledgments, paraphrasing, and validating the speaker’s emotions.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Allison Wood Brooks (72:02) – "Great conversationalists use their words to show people that they've heard them. Those can't be faked."

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The Impact of AI on Conversations

Dr. Brooks raises concerns about the increasing reliance on AI companions for conversation. While AI can offer consistent and non-judgmental interactions, it may inadvertently erode human conversational skills and emotional connections.

Key Points:

• AI as a Tool: AI can serve as a practice ground for conversation but lacks genuine emotional engagement.
• Potential Risks: Overuse of AI companions might lead to decreased ability to handle real human interactions, fostering isolation and superficial relationships.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Allison Wood Brooks (41:33) – "It's amazing at serving you. It's training us to... when we turn to an actual human, forget that the mission is the complete opposite."

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Conversation in Group Settings and Status Hierarchy

Navigating conversations in groups introduces additional layers of complexity, primarily due to inherent status hierarchies that influence participation and influence within the dialogue.

Key Points:

• Dynamic Status: Status within a group can shift based on the topic, affecting who leads and who follows in conversations.
• Inclusion Challenges: Lower-status members may feel marginalized, reducing their willingness to contribute and share insights.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Allison Wood Brooks (78:39) – "As group size grows, the coordination challenges of all conversations grow exponentially."

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Apologies and Kindness in Communication

Apologizing effectively is a critical component of healthy relationships and conversations. Dr. Brooks outlines the significance of sincere apologies in rebuilding trust and demonstrating accountability.

Key Points:

• Components of an Apology: Understanding, accountability, and a commitment to change are essential for a meaningful apology.
• Positive Outcomes: Proper apologies can repair relationships, whereas insincere ones may exacerbate conflicts.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Allison Wood Brooks (84:05) – "Apologies are the most powerful thing we have in our conversational toolkit."

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Practical Techniques to Improve Conversations

Dr. Brooks shares tangible exercises and strategies to enhance conversational prowess, encouraging listeners to apply these methods in various settings.

Key Points:

• Never-Ending Follow-Ups: Engaging in continuous question-asking to maintain flow and depth in conversations.
• Avoiding Boomerang Questions: Focusing on the other person’s experiences before sharing one’s own stories.
• Structured Practice: Role-playing scenarios to build confidence and adaptability in real-life dialogues.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Allison Wood Brooks (52:17) – "In my class, we do an exercise called never ending follow ups. It sounds so extreme, but the experience of it is like Scotty, the experience of it is magic."

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Anecdotes and Personal Insights

Throughout the episode, Dr. Brooks and the hosts share personal stories and experiences that illuminate the practical applications of conversational science. These narratives underscore the importance of vulnerability, active listening, and continuous improvement in fostering meaningful connections.

Notable Interactions:

• Twin Dynamics: Discussions about the unique perspective of being an identical twin and its impact on self-awareness.
• Apology Stories: Dr. Brooks recounts a touching moment with her son, illustrating the profound impact of sincere apologies.
• Improv Exercises: On-air improvisational games highlight conversational techniques in real-time, demonstrating their effectiveness and the natural challenges involved.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Allison Wood Brooks (85:49) – "You're saying this to me because I want to have a relationship with you in the future."

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Conclusion

Dr. Allison Wood Brooks provides a comprehensive exploration of the science and art of conversation, emphasizing its complexity and the deliberate efforts required to master it. By integrating game theory, personal experiences, and actionable strategies, the episode offers listeners valuable insights into enhancing their conversational skills, fostering deeper relationships, and navigating the evolving landscape of human interaction in the age of technology.

Final Notable Quote:
Dr. Allison Wood Brooks (89:43) – "I think you're a bit wrong about that."

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Recommendation:
For those interested in understanding the deeper mechanics of conversation and improving their interpersonal skills, listening to this episode of Armchair Expert with Dr. Allison Wood Brooks is highly recommended. Her blend of scientific research and personal anecdotes provides a rich, engaging, and practical guide to becoming a more effective and empathetic conversationalist.

Transcript

[Dax Shepard]

Wondry plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now. Join Wondry plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert Experts on Expert. I'm Dan shepherd and I'm joined by Lily Padman.

[Monica Padman]

Hi.

[Dax Shepard]

Today we have Dr. Allison Wood Brooks. She is a behavioral research scientist and professor at Harvard.

[Monica Padman]

At Harvard. That's a very fancy.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. Harvard Business School.

[Monica Padman]

That's right.

[Dax Shepard]

Hbs. She has a new book out right now called Talk the Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves. She is an incredibly good guest.

[Monica Padman]

So fun. And I do think we take for granted conversation. We think we're just going to show up and be able to do it. I really, really like this in the context. I mean in general. But dating, which we talk about a fair amount and why a lot of these are not very successful.

[Dax Shepard]

You actually put no time into planning how going to converse.

[Monica Padman]

There's like real tricks for conversation.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. And it's not disingenuous to use them.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Also she's an identical twin.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So we had a lot of fun twin chatter.

[Monica Padman]

That part is very cool.

[Dax Shepard]

And further imploring us to get a twin expert.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. We really want that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

She's one of the guests that we have that is a teacher at a fancy school and their class is like sort of list.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. It's one of these favorite classes.

[Monica Padman]

Do you know I often I have a recurring dream.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

That I am not finished. Like everyone's finished with their classes. It's the last semester and I forgot to like do put my classes in correctly and now I'm behind and I'm gonna have to take all these extra classes to graduate.

[Dax Shepard]

Yep.

[Monica Padman]

And then I'm also looking at the classes and I really want this specific class because it's like the fun class that everyone wants to take.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I have this dream a lot.

[Dax Shepard]

I have half of that. I don't ever have the class I'm trying to take.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

I have the like what happened? We're mid semester. Have I gone to any classes?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

There's a final I wake up on set a lot where I'm directing something I haven't read.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh my God. It's ill prepared anxiety.

[Monica Padman]

But her class would be one in my dream.

[Dax Shepard]

You should add it. Yeah. You should incorporate it.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Please enjoy. Allison Wood Brooks. We are supported by the all new Galaxy S25 Ultra from Samsung. This phone is a true AI companion that evolves with you to do more for you, like handling multiple tasks with just one ask. For example, you can tell it to find a restaurant nearby and text it to my friends, or look up my favorite basketball team schedule and add it to my calendar. And it does it just like that. Just speak the request naturally and the new Galaxy S25 Ultra takes care of the rest. Okay, this is what AI was meant for. That is seamless plus. Now brief with Galaxy AI gives you personalized daily briefings that keep you a step ahead. It'll show you your appointments, the weather, your energy, score and more all in one place, ready to let AI do more for you so you can do you then get your Galaxy S25 Ultra now at samsung.com compatible with select apps. Requires Google Gemini account. Results may vary based on input. Check responses for accuracy. Now Brief with Galaxy AI displays daily select information from select apps may require Internet connection. Galaxy AI features by Samsung free through 2025 and require Samsung account login we are supported by Squarespace maybe you've got dreams of turning your hobby into a side hustle this year or finally opening an online store. Maybe you want to share your knowledge with the world and make an online course. Squarespace is the perfect part to take your website to the next level and help you accomplish your 2025 goals. No matter what type of site you want to build, Squarespace can help you make it. If you're starting an online store, Squarespace makes checkout seamless. Their flexible payment options, including credit cards, PayPal and Apple Pay, make it easy for your customers to check out. And Squarespace has all the tools you need to create and sell your own online course. Start with a layout that fits your brand. Upload videos and customize everything with next generation editing technology. Create engaging lessons your audience will love. Add a paywall and set the price. Take what you know and turn it into income. We use Squarespace to make our lovely website incredible and it functions, it's pretty.

[Monica Padman]

It'S effective, it's efficient and highly functional.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, head to squarespace.com for a free trial and when you're ready to get started, go to squarespace.comdax to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace.com dax to get started today. He's an upchurcher. He's an option Most people who love Diet Coke will acknowledge it does seem to be a bit of an addiction.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Yeah, yeah. Cause it's a stimulant, right?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

We cut through so many cases of Diet Coke at Hbs at Harvard because so many of the faculty are ADHD and they're self medicating in tiny doses.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. It's their over the counter.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Yeah. In addition to their real Ridley.

[Monica Padman]

Although Diet Pepsi is becoming more of a thing. I don't know if you guys heard about the new trends.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Say it.

[Monica Padman]

There's a song out called Diet Pepsi and Diet Pepsi sales are skyrocketing. Come on. Yeah, it's real.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

I want to see the song.

[Monica Padman]

She's a big.

[Dax Shepard]

I want to see a link to the.

[Monica Padman]

The data. Yeah, it's real. Some people have converted from Diet Coke.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

To D. I wanted you to say that it was Britney Spears because she had that like amazing. Remember the ad back in the day? She was so hot. She was so gorgeous. I would love to see a resurgence.

[Monica Padman]

Get back in it.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Britney Spears with the Diet Pepsi. She's the one bringing it back. That's what I want.

[Monica Padman]

Addison Rae.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Addison Rae. Kind of a new gen Britney Spears. As if we're being real.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't know that. Is that the case?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, it is.

[Dax Shepard]

It's funny you'd say that cause you have a reference in the book. You chose an artist and I was like that's a young artist.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Ariana Grande.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. You talk about her video to describe context.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Yes. Look at you. It's your memory. Holy moly.

[Dax Shepard]

Like wow. You have three children. I don't know your age.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

I'm turning 40 next month.

[Dax Shepard]

Congratulations.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

I am at a major inflection point in my life. You're hitting me at the right time.

[Monica Padman]

You're young.

[Dax Shepard]

Where are you from, Alison?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

I grew up in upstate New York in the Finger Lakes area. Very rust belty when I was growing up there. Not fancy. Since I've moved away and become an adult. It's a beautiful place and I think the world is more onto it now.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so what's really exciting and it comes up quite often, this topic and in fact we are in search of a great twins expert.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Am I the expert?

[Dax Shepard]

Maybe.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

I think I might be the expert.

[Dax Shepard]

I think you're too close to it to be an expert.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

That's a good point. Won't be as objective lived expert.

[Dax Shepard]

Sarah is your identical twin?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't think I ever really considered this. It's adjacent to self awareness. We all strive to have a good deal of self awareness. But you articulate it in the book and I wouldn't have considered this is you also have like an external version of self awareness where you get to watch her move through the world and try things and see how they react. That's very peculiar, isn't it? In an interesting way.

[Monica Padman]

Seeing if being more outspoken like you can't say, well, it's because they look like this. All the factors are the same. So that is very interesting.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

And we all have multiple selves, but as a twin, you get to see one of your sort of selves, outspoken side of your body. It's an amazing lucky life. I don't know anything else, but it's really quite something.

[Dax Shepard]

Are you mirror twins? Is one of you left handed, one right?

[Monica Padman]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, bummer. See, that's one of the things I need answered. How many people are like that?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

You're right. I'm not an expert. I don't know those answers.

[Monica Padman]

But you're identical.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

We're identical. We didn't know we were identical until high school. What the AP biology class was like, hey, can we test you and figure it out?

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wow.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

And they did. And then you lay the results side by side. This was way before 23andMe and they were identical. I mean, it looked like the same person my parents did. I didn't know they were having twins until I was out. It sounds like the dark ages.

[Dax Shepard]

Would you feel like an internal embarrassment when she would embarrass herself?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Of course. In the same way that you do. If you're hanging out with your sibling or you're a very close friend and they do something, there's always a vicarious embarrassment. But this is amplified even more because it's a reflection of you. You're watching yourself do an embarrassing thing as it unfolds live. And you have this normal sibling thing where you're like, stop.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. You said there's like a combination of things that were helpful. One was being able to see how you seemed in public. But then also you guys had constant, unfiltered feedback.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Two things. You're sort of watching a version of yourself interact in the world. So that's a passive version of feedback where you're seeing how the world reacts to this version of you. But then you're also directly talking to each other in the way that very close siblings do. And you feel even more empowered to be sort of brutal to each other. Right. Like, what the hell was that? Ew, gross. Don't do that. Relentless. We are still that way. She lives a mile down the road from me. Neither she does. She also has three kids. Two boys and a little girl.

[Dax Shepard]

No.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Swear to God.

[Dax Shepard]

And is she a professor?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

She is not a professor. She's a cool twin. She runs A nonprofit. It's amazing. It's called Prime Coalition.

[Dax Shepard]

I never thought of that either. You could only give so many compliments to your identical twin before it would sound. It would sound indulgent and narcissistic. You're like, she's beautiful.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

She's super smart.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

She's the dazzling smart person I've ever met.

[Monica Padman]

Anyone who looks as pretty as her.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, you got to be careful.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Exactly. Like a weird self. Toast.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

But honestly, I admire her so much. She's done really amazing things.

[Dax Shepard]

So your hair is naturally curly.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Big time.

[Dax Shepard]

And you chose to straighten your hair. So you were doing things to try to carve out some individual.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

The whole existence, my whole existence anyway, is every moment you're making these choices of who am I gonna be? How are we similar? How are we gonna differentiate? When are we gonna cooperate and work together and collaborate? When are we gonna compete? She's gonna play the flute, I'm gonna play the oboe. But we're both gonna be in the orchest.

[Dax Shepard]

And you were a three point shooter and she was a mid range shooter.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

She's a three point shooter, vice versa. I got that, Brooks. Mid range.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. So you both played basketball. It must have been so fun when you guys came to schools in junior high and people were like, there's twins on this team.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

We're not quiet drinking Violet. One of me would have already been a lot.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. There is this added layer of like, you like a boy. If he likes you. I don't know. Conceivably he'd also like. Was there anything tricky there?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Of course. I think we only dated the same guy once.

[Dax Shepard]

What if you said four times?

[Monica Padman]

You did do that?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Maybe when you're young. One year we held hands for a week and then four years later they went on a date. I think that's kind of the extent of it because that would be really weird.

[Dax Shepard]

And are your current husband similar?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

They are similar in some ways, but quite different. She's always had different tastes than me, actually. In suitors and in the ways that complement how she and I are different from each other. And you saw this a little bit in the book. I was so hard on her about who she was dating, my expectations for who she would end up with were even higher than for myself, which are already so high.

[Dax Shepard]

Did you ever feel inferior to her or superior or both? Both.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Because it's like having a mirror. You actually get a better sense of what you're good at and not good at because you have this example of someone who is actually Slightly better or slightly worse than you at certain times.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

As a psychologist now, for a long time, I would have loved to believe that everything is malleable, everything is trainable and learnable, and you can change so much about yourself. But I think being an identical twin does highlight how many things are outside your control and genetic. Our hands, if you laid them side by side, I could not tell them apart. Our feet, our voices. I still to this day answer the phone. Hello, this is Alison. Because I can't even tell the difference in our voices just on the phone. There are things about our bodies and about your mind that you don't have control over. And then I had my own kids. They each come out so different. And you're like, holy cow, nature's really a thing.

[Dax Shepard]

It's fascinating.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

It's so fascinating.

[Dax Shepard]

So you went to Princeton for undergrad, and then you went to Wharton for graduate school. What was the undergrad degree in?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Psychology was my major. And I got a minor they called a certificate there in finance. Not because I was interested in finance per se, but because I was really interested in economics and this judgment and decision making, behavioral science stuff.

[Dax Shepard]

Right, Behavioral economics, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Wait, sorry. I have one more twin thing. I know we're past twins. I have to know if you have the thing that they all have where you can sort of read each other's minds.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

In this book and in my course and in conversation in general, there's so much mind reading that you have to do. Of all people. Like, we're constantly trying to figure out, what are they thinking about, how are they feeling? Are they interested in this right now? Are they bored? There's this tremendous level of mind reading. I think twins get better at that with each other. This is a hypothesis. This has not been studied. But possibly they get better at it with other people as well because they just had more practice doing it their whole development, their whole childhood. But I think that where the stereotype comes from with twins is that they can read each other's minds. They've spent a lot of time together, they know each other really, really well, and their brains work similarly.

[Dax Shepard]

True. We got into a little bit of a chat about the validity of these telepathy tapes thing that's going around. We were using ourselves as examples because we're both quite good at predicting what the other. I'm more inclined to think it's just pattern recognition. And I also think if you a observed your sister her whole life, so God, you've seen her react to every way, and then intuitively you Kind of know how would react. You know, input A is going to equal this stimulus, is going to equal this output. I tend to believe it's that totally.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

And what it has shown me is even though we're so good at predicting what the other person will do, we have this tight knit which psychologists would call shared reality. You're better at predicting what your twin's going to do than probably anyone else in the world. And I still don't know exactly what she's thinking and feeling.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

It just shows you. Even when you have so much in common, you have the same upbringing, the same genesis, so many shared experiences, you still can't read people's lives.

[Monica Padman]

There's still a mystery element.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

You can get close. The more you interact with somebody, the more you actually care and are good at pattern recognition and pick up on patterns in their behavior and how they think you can get better at it, especially within specific relationships. But you still don't know perfectly what Monica's thinking all the time.

[Dax Shepard]

I think what's interesting and worth following up on that thought is I actually think you probably could always predict, but you're often missing a lot of the context.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. You don't know what happened. This is the first example that we get to in your book. You know your sister really well, but you don't know if when she stopped at the gas station, someone called her a whore. You know everything else you've observed, but that thing is still floating around. So I do think if you did know all the details, you would be in still the high 90s. It's just we don't really know all the details.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Exactly. Right.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. So in graduate school, you start focusing on negotiation.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Yeah. And emotions.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Why people's behavior is impacted by their feelings.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So what caught your attention?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

I realized that there was a lot of research in clinical psychology about anxiety and the sort of high level anxiety that requires medication or therapy. And I was like, you know what, though? Everybody's feeling anxious a lot of the time. And it's influencing how they're walking through the world, all of the decisions they're making, all of these choices, how they talk to other people. I wonder if there's a way that we can study anxiety in that way that's sort of outside the sphere of clinical psych as a pathology that needs diagnosis, which is obviously so important. But what about the sort of lower grade normal anxiety that most people are feeling a lot of the time? Let's figure out how that's influencing the choices that they're Making as they go through their day negotiation was one of the places that we looked, but we also looked at advice. When do you seek advice? When do you take advice?

[Dax Shepard]

Who do you seek it from?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Who do you seek it from it from? Do you feel like you have to listen to it?

[Monica Padman]

Dax doesn't seek advice from anyone.

[Dax Shepard]

No, I do, but remember I said I seek the advice that I think I'm going to give.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Oh, right.

[Monica Padman]

We did talk about that.

[Dax Shepard]

To confirm if I want to indulge in this bad behavior, I call a person I know who regularly indulges in that and is not going to say, you know better. And then when I actually want to change, I call Tom Hansen. Okay, so you end up at Harvard teaching negotiation, and you start doing a lot of clinical work and experiments. Yes, and it definitely expands out. I have a list of fun things.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Negotiation has been this course that's been taught at every business school and law school for a long time now. It's a great course. The students show up, they take on these roles, and they pretend to be, you know, the manager of a factory. And you have to negotiate all this stuff. It's informative. It's great. As I was teaching it, though, a couple things occurred to me. One, our students at Harvard are already very strategic people. And I was like, do I need to be teaching people who are already quite strategic to be even more hard driving? Does that align with my values? That's question number one. Number two, so many of the exercises were like, well, you have to negotiate for a car or you're gonna go buy a house or you're gonna negotiate a merger or a really big deal. At work, I was like, I'm a grownup, and I don't really have those conversations very often. Maybe once every two months. But you know what I do all the time is talk to people in conversations that on their surface, should be easy. And then at moments, I'm like, oh, this is maybe not as easy or as fun as it. So my sort of aperture of what I was getting curious about and thinking about how to help people was sort of widening.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. You did experiments on speed dating, parole hearings, doctor patient interactions, negotiations, sales calls, instant messaging, face to face, chin wags between strangers.

[Monica Padman]

What's that?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

I love that word. Chin wag is literally your chin. Just. It's a synonym for talking.

[Monica Padman]

To know.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

That'S what you do. Hearing that is true, you could put.

[Dax Shepard]

All of those under the umbrella of negotiating. Right. And I think the things that would be normally studied or you'd be drawn to is all the things you listed are quantifiable. Like, I want this amount. They're offering this amount. The outcome's measurable. But in a romantic relationship, you get into these gradients of leverage and control and power. Those are not easy to quantify and measure the outcome of.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

I remember very vividly back when I was teaching the negotiation course. I had a student raise her hand one day, and she was like, so is this just about like, solving a math problem? Because in the way that those exercises were set up and the way that we think about negotiating, it sort of is, because it's all these things that are quantifiable. You've put numbers on what you care about, and then you try and sort of trade on differences to expand the size of the pie and then claim the largest part of it. And as a psychologist, it made me deeply uncomfortable. Not everything is quantifiable. So much about life and about how we feel towards each other is emotional and trust and fun and love. And I want to keep this private. Just felt like we were missing a big piece.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I wrote down. You said, while strategic and technical skills can help people get ahead in many ways, being a successful person is about relationships, and relationships are about talking. And I guess, I wonder, did you kind of feel like the previous work in communication and negotiation felt maybe a little too calculated or manipulative? Even when I have people on that'll be like, how to talk to the right or how to talk to the left. I'm like, the underbelly. Still feels like the ultimate goal is to get someone to believe the things you do, which I think fundamentally against.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Yeah. And missing a huge part of what it means to be the most human we can be. And we love each other and want to have fun together. And it's like, not about just sort of transactional. How can I get as much information out of you? How can I tell you the most amount of information? Even now, a lot of economists focus very narrowly on information exchange. Are we exchanging accurate information? But so much of the social world is not about information exchange at all. We're just looking to fill time. We're looking to conceal information and maintain privacy. Want to feel awkward around other people. We want to have fun. We want to learn from each other. I felt like that whole bit needed more of a focus.

[Dax Shepard]

So you took all these conclusions and then you wove it into a class you call Talk how to Talk Gooder in Business and Life. I don't know where you got that, but what a stroke.

[Monica Padman]

Of genius.

[Dax Shepard]

That is how to talk gooder in business, in life. But it became hugely popular. It's a heavily impacted class at Harvard, and you've taught a thousand students over the last four years. You were invited to be a consultant to. To the Celtics.

[Monica Padman]

Wow, Dang, girl.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Mid range jump shots. Now you found your way to the.

[Dax Shepard]

Celtics as a basketball player. That's right.

[Monica Padman]

It all circles back.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Talk is a practical guide to having better conversations in a variety of settings. Work, parenting, dating, trying to make connection. And so my first question is, do you think we underestimate the complexity of conversations? I think we all just are like, yeah, conversations. I know how to have them. I'm having them all day long.

[Monica Padman]

Chin wagging.

[Dax Shepard]

I might underestimate what an abstract and complicated thing a conversation is just on the surface.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

I mean, we start learning to talk to each other when we're one. One and a half. You're a toddler, you do it every day of your life with an enormous number of people, very diverse range of conversation partners. So by the time you get to be a teenager and then an adult, it's second nature to you. It feels like you should be an expert. And maybe you are an expert. You see other people who are seemingly amazing at it, and you're like, wow. And then you feel bad if you feel like you're not.

[Dax Shepard]

It also has the illusion of being innate, which it's not, right? It's like reading. It's this very abstract thing. I'm making a bunch of noises to transfer the thoughts I have inside of my brain internally into your brain internally. And you're gonna respond in a way that you'll transfer your thoughts. That is highly complicated.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

When you look under the hood of what's going on during conversation, it is remarkably complex. You get to this point of acceptance where you're like, of course there's gonna be moments of awkwardness. Of course we're gonna forget to say stuff that we meant to say or say things that we regret or interrupt people, these little collisions. Because it's not second nature. And watching children learn to do it. Reading or talking opens your eyes to how this is not natural, this is not innate. It's hard to learn to read. It takes years to really get good at reading. It takes even longer to learn how to be a good conversationalist. And we get to adulthood and we're still not that great.

[Dax Shepard]

Right? So I guess in just thinking it's innate, you might not think that it's something that you could approach mindfully with a Tactic. I like that. You say people will put 20 minutes into planning their outfit to go meet someone, everybody, and they'll put zero thought into, when I arrive, what will I talk about? What topics do I bring up? You don't give it any thought.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Think about how much time you spend picking out your outfit, making a reservation at the restaurant, buying your makeup, getting your hair done. And literally, during all of that, you could be thinking, what are two things we could talk about once we're together? But most people don't do that.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. You just take for granted. It'll just happen.

[Monica Padman]

It'll flow, and then the days suck, right? Well, yes, but also, do you think people might feel like that's contrived?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

I know people think it's contrived.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

So we've asked people. There's tremendous aversion to this idea of forethought, particularly for people that you know really well. And it goes back to this assumption or this hope that it's second nature. You have this feeling that conversation should feel natural.

[Dax Shepard]

You say it's the myth of naturalness.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

The myth of naturalness. It should feel spontaneous and invented on the spot and a little bit magical that you just land on topics that are fun to talk about, and there's never gonna be a lull, and you're gonna just know where to go. And we feel that way even more with people that we know really well and love. We're like, oh, it'll just come. Which is maybe true a little bit more when you know somebody well compared to, like, your work colleague that you don't like. But in all of the cases, whether you're averse or not, when you actually have people plan topics ahead of time, their conversations are measurably better.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I love that you're contrasting it with the other amounts of effort you put in. No one's thinking like, well, I'll just naturally look good, and if I don't naturally look good, it's not a fit, or I'll naturally arrive there. No, none of these things are going to happen. So would you give me a little historical context for conversation? How we thought of conversation, how it's evolved. I. I was kind of fascinated with the power dynamic of a monarchy and how that affected things. How has our idea of a conversation evolved?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

We actually know very little about when humans evolve the ability to have dialogue and talk to each other. Estimates vary quite widely. There are signs in the archaeological record. The fossil of jewelry is a sign that they must have learned to talk by this point, because they had to pass that knowledge down across generations in order for it to be trapped in the archaeological record.

[Dax Shepard]

Or they even do these super fascinating things. Well, yes, they'll find a necklace of fox teeth, and then they'll do the actual math of how long it would take to procure that many teeth and then string it and all the work that would be involved. And what you have to acknowledge about this necklace is that it was a group effort.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Exactly. And then they make hypotheses about. Well, would they have been able to collaborate on this if they hadn't yet learned to actually talk to each other, communicate in some way?

[Dax Shepard]

You would have to be able to tell them, here's what we're. We're gathering teeth because we're gonna make this.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Here's the project.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So I'm gonna have to lay out a game plan.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

That's how we're trying to figure out, when did humans evolve this ability? Then you fast forward. The book starts in the 1700s, when there were all of these monarchies in Europe whose kings and queens told people how to talk to each other. Here are the people who are allowed to talk to each other at these times. And these are the topics. And here are all the compliments you have to say about me. Yeah, right. That was it. And then around the French revol right after, in the Enlightenment, and during what was called the age of conversation, people started to realize, oh, we can get together and talk about what we want to talk about. And it was in these fancy salons in Paris, and it was happening all over Europe. And so the book zooms in on Immanuel Kant, who is this famous philosopher.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, we love Kant.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

And he lived a very fascinating, very regimented life, most of his life. He would get up and he would go for his walk at a specific time. He would sit down and do his work at a specific time. They called him the Konigsberg Clock. Very regimented guy. He was not wealthy until late in his life when he was finally able to afford a home of his own.

[Dax Shepard]

He couldn't even get a professorship. Blew my mind. He lived at boarding houses, and he was like a sub teacher, basically.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

A sub teacher. And he would have dinner in these rowdy pubs at night. And as this fancy, very smart philosopher, he would get really annoyed. He's like, this is boring. I want to talk to smart people about my smart ideas. So finally, when he was able to get his own house, he started hosting these dinner parties, which became very well known. They were highly coveted invitations to Kant's house for these dinner parties. What I found so fascinating to read about and learn is that his dinner parties had all these rules of conversation. So he almost was kind of acting like this little king in his kingdom.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

And his rules were, we're gonna talk about specific topics at the beginning, we're gonna talk about specific topics in the middle. Then we're gonna joke at the end. We're gonna have food and wine that mirrors each of the phases of the meal.

[Monica Padman]

I wanna go to this.

[Dax Shepard]

Right? You curated the guest list. Wouldn't have five physicians. You'd have a physician, you'd have a clergy member. So it was going to be an eclectic group. There were some grounders. No interrupting, no monologuing, no arguing.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

So surprisingly, he didn't like debate. He didn't really like when people argued about stuff, especially about the French Revolution. He was like, this is for us to have fun and learn from each other. And it should feel delightful the whole time.

[Dax Shepard]

Take the ideas or leave the ideas. You don't have to defeat them.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Exactly. And so that was sort of the beginning of it. During the age of conversation, this idea was cropping up all over Europe. There were all these philosophers who were pontificating about what it meant to have good, sparkling conversation. It was sort of subversive because it was the first time that they weren't just doing what the king or queen told them to do. And then the Industrial Revolution happened and people started mixing a lot more. We're not just talking about highfalutin philosophers getting their fancy friends together. People are going everywhere, all the time. You never know who you're going to run into in all classes, in all status. So we need to now figure out what are we talking about? How are we talking. What are the new rules of conversation?

[Dax Shepard]

Well, what you're first describing is that mixing in the class is hugely impacted by the move from rural life to city life. You live within a stone's throw of.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

The rich person, and you're gonna see them on this road as you're walking past. And you're allowed to greet each other. If you say hi, what are you gonna say? Can you even tell who's who anymore?

[Dax Shepard]

Right, yeah. And I love that the boundaries are only felt apart. So your framing of this is to think of conversation in terms of a coordinated game, which you take from game theory. Tell me what a coordinated game is.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Yes. So fast forward. So all of this mixing is happening. The big experiment in democracy is happening in America. All the Europeans think that Americans are no good at Conversation. We're talking about ourselves all the time. They spit while they're talking. I mean, there's all kinds of stereotypes developing. Fast forward a bit more. In the mid-1900s, middle of the 20th century, game theory appeared. So these are economists and game theorists, like John Nash from A Beautiful Mind.

[Monica Padman]

Sure, sure.

[Dax Shepard]

Janus von Neumann.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Yes. Morgenstern, Thomas Schelling. Now, they studied what they called coordination games, which were really simple, but at the time they were really hot and flashy. So it would be like the game of chicken. As a coordination game, any choice two or more people are making independently that they can't talk to each other. Other. So like in a game of chicken, you're coming towards each other. You both have to choose. Am I going to go right or am I going to go left? But you can't talk about it. If you coordinate, you pass successfully. Motorcycles or sea dos or whatever.

[Dax Shepard]

You're on horses with jowls.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Yes, exactly. If you miscoordinate, you collide. That's a simple one. There are non cooperative coordination games, like the Prisoner's Dilemma. Do you know the Prisoner's Dilemma?

[Dax Shepard]

The Stanford Prison.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

No, no, that's different. That's the Stanford Prison experiment where they had mild.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God. I did it.

[Dax Shepard]

Wow, you're good.

[Monica Padman]

I've been trying to remember who did the Stanford Prison.

[Dax Shepard]

I told her I don't care.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, but I said, I'm going to commit this to memory. And I did.

[Dax Shepard]

You did a good job.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

I thought you just had an electric shock just now. I felt Milgram. That's how I react to the name, too. Milgram did the Sanford prison experiment. And the shocks.

[Dax Shepard]

No, no, the shock we just learned about is different. That was in England.

[Monica Padman]

That was a different guy.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

I thought Milgram did shocks. Or is it Milgram that did shocks?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah. Philip Zimbardo.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Zimbardo did the Sandler and Breda. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God, you flipped them. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my God. Hoisted by your own bata. And you were celebrating and I congratulated you. This is wonderful.

[Monica Padman]

This is a horrible conversation.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so Zimbardo did. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Stanford Prison.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Milgram is like the shock. Milgram.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, I'm never gonna be able.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

I'm gonna quiz you at the end.

[Dax Shepard]

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare. We are supported by All Star State. Some people just know they could save hundreds on car insurance by checking all state first. Like, you know, to check your sunroof first before driving through the car wash. Like, you know, to put the leash on your dog first before you open the door to go for a walk. Not that I've ever made that mistake and had my dog run outside without me or scream his name repeatedly over and over and over again until I found him. Or, you know, to check that the guy who asked you out is an armchair effort first before you agree to go on a date with them. Sage advice essential Checking first is smart, so check Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate. This content is intended for audiences in the US Only. Savings vary Terms apply Allstate Fire and Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates Northbrook, Illinois we are supported by Quince. You know, Kristen's been ordering a ton.

[Monica Padman]

From Quince is amazing.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, and I told her I go, you know, they're a sponsor. And she couldn't believe it. Being stylish and comfortable allows you to feel your best, making you ready to tackle anything that comes your way. That's where Quince comes in.

[Monica Padman]

I was just in the house and our friend Anna, she had borrowed a sweater from me. It's blue and it's from Quince. It's gorgeous and it fits so well. And when she was wearing it, I was like, I want it back.

[Dax Shepard]

Of course, that's a sign of a great item when you regret loaning it out. There's no better workout motivation than some new activewear. Quince's performance tees and tech shorts are perfect for any movement. And if your work wardrobe needs a revamp, you can't go wrong with their their Mongolian cashmere sweaters, which start at just $60. They're able to offer such affordable prices by partnering directly with top factories, cutting out the cost of the middleman. Then they pass those savings on to us. Indulge in affordable luxury. Go to quince.comdax for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.comdax to get free shipping and 365 day returns quince.comdax have you ever.

[Monica Padman]

Gotten a message out of the blue?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Maybe you ignore them, or maybe you.

[Monica Padman]

End up in conversation. Maybe they tell you about an amazing offer.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

I can really show you how to make some money. And maybe that gets you into a lot of trouble.

[Monica Padman]

But this isn't a story about people like you, the people receiving these messages. This is a story about the people behind the message. Messages on the other end of the line, thousands of them, working in a microcity built for scammers From Wondery, the makers of Dr. Death and Kill List, comes Scam Factory, a new series about survival at the expense of others. Follow Scam Factory on the Wondery app.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Scam Factory early and after right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, sorry. So yours is separate from all of it different.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Forget about Zimbardo's Stanford prison experiment. Forget about the shocks. So the prisoner's dilemma is a coordination game that people were thinking about. You imagine there's two people being questioned in separate room, interrogated about a crime, and they both face a choice and they can't talk to each other about it, to either stay quiet or snitch. Okay, if they both stay quiet, they're gonna go to jail, but not for very long. If they both snitch, they both go to jail for much longer. So it seems simple that you should stay quiet. Except if you snitch and the other guy stays quiet, you walk free.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, this is great.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Everybody is tempted to betray. And so this is a non cooperative coordination game because you're incentiv to not cooperate.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, interesting.

[Dax Shepard]

You are also incentivized to cooperate.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

That's what makes it hard.

[Monica Padman]

The biggest reward is to walk free.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm trying to measure it in a utilitarian way. I feel like both people with a reduced sentence is still.

[Monica Padman]

Well, it's better in theory, logically. But if you're the person, you start.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

To get the sense why these games are interesting to people, because then you can change all kinds of stuff. Who are you imagining in the other room? What's your relationship with them? What do you know about the person? If you did this game 10 times in a row based on their prior behavior, what are you doing?

[Dax Shepard]

Russians have a weird outcome in this game.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Tell me.

[Dax Shepard]

I wish I could remember the source because it'll just sound like xenophobia. But yet one of these many books that has talked about the prison experiment, talked about how Russians asymmetrically will punish even when it costs them.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

These games have been studied so much that I'm sure there are lots of cross cultural findings about how Germans play and how everyone plays. So economists and game theorists were kind of obsessed with these coordination games. Now fast forward to now. We have whole fields that have been studying social psychology, communication, all of this stuff. And what I realized is even though we have these whole fields that are about interpersonal interaction, not a lot of people had gone to the trouble of actually Recording real people, talking to real people at very large scale. The reason they hadn't is because we needed new technology to do it right.

[Dax Shepard]

You couldn't have film cameras running. Although your hometown would love it. Kodak would still be thriving. Yeah. We needed a digital revolution.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Natural language processing and machine learning to help us analyze tons of transcripts at once. We just weren't ready to do it until very recently. But as we were sort of like, oh, we should do that. We should record tons of conversations and analyze them. I also realized conversation is just like those coordination games that the game theorists were studying back in the 1950s. Like Thomas Schelling. He has a famous one where he asked people, if you had to meet up with people at noon tomorrow in New York City, where would you go? Go.

[Dax Shepard]

I know what the answer to this is.

[Monica Padman]

Is it a riddle or is it just a fun fact?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

It's just a coordination. You can't talk about it. And everybody writes down their answer.

[Dax Shepard]

I unfortunately, know too much about it.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Let's pick la.

[Dax Shepard]

Let's do it.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. Yeah.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

So if you had to meet up with Monica tomorrow somewhere in LA at noon think in your mind where you would go.

[Dax Shepard]

It's not here.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

I can't be here.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Monica, what's your answer?

[Monica Padman]

Car.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, same.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Oh, the bar at Cara. Yeah. Or the restroom.

[Dax Shepard]

That's exactly what I thought.

[Monica Padman]

Is that just because we know that we.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

The New York one. A lot of people will say, the Empire State Building. It's a landmark. Let's see, the Brooklyn Bridge. But there is a right answer.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

The most frequent one that people say is Grand Central Station. Grand Central Station.

[Monica Padman]

Everyone will be arriving.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. So there is a kind of a high probability.

[Monica Padman]

Kind of a riddle.

[Dax Shepard]

Kind of a riddle, yeah.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Thomas Schelling called them focal points. It's because it's stuff that your mind goes to quickly that you think other people are gonna do.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. High probability. The first thing you think of when you think of New York. I'll go there.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Yeah, we're here. That's a focal point for you in your shared reality and your relationship that helps you coordinate. So what we realized about conversation is it's just like these coordination games except every little moment is like a coordination game when you're trying to decide, what are we gonna talk about next? How are we gonna talk about it? What are they excited? For me to ask, where should we go next? Requires this level of share, these focal points and this mind reading. But it's so much more than just one choice. Do you stay Quiet or snitch. It's like, and now and now and now and now. And you have to make those choices relentlessly.

[Dax Shepard]

It's almost incredible we can communicate.

[Monica Padman]

I agree, it is incredible.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

That's what linguists will tell you.

[Dax Shepard]

Almost everyone can relate to some social anxiety, the fear of small talk, being an elevator. And that is all present. But in general, it goes shockingly well. It's the anomaly. You hear two people screaming at each other on the sidewalk.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

And even when they're screaming at each other, they're taking turns, they're listening to each other. There is some information being exchanged that they may get the opportunity to rehash later.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, exactly.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Still amazing that we were able to do this. And when you look at actual transcripts between real people, whether they're shouting at each other or not, you start to realize, oh, it is a train wreck. We're interrupting each other all the time. We're not actually listening. We're having half finished thoughts. We get excited about a thing and then we get excited about another thing.

[Dax Shepard]

You said 24% of the time your mind is wandering.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

And I think that's an underestimate because as a proud member of the recent legion of middle aged people who've been diagnosed with adhd, so this was my research and it really hit home. It was very validating. So there was previous research showing that our brains are not built to focus on one thing. Our resting state is mind wandering outside of conversation. In our research, we looked at it in conversation. So we interrupted people every five minutes and we were like, were you just listening to your partner? Were you just listening to your partner asking them to self report?

[Dax Shepard]

Which is gonna be, I think, skewed low.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

It is way skewed low. Because people know that it's not polite to say I wasn't listening. Or they're not sure if they were listening because they weren't listening.

[Monica Padman]

They probably thought, oh, of course I was listening, but not really. They probably couldn't repeat.

[Dax Shepard]

Or you think you're doing both things.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Yeah, I'm listening and I'm wandering, which is often true. So I think this 24%, number one, is staggeringly high and comforting to realize. And two, probably a huge underestimate of what's really happening.

[Dax Shepard]

This is why you've always seen that an AI companion might actually be wonderful because they actually won't be thinking about anything but you. And they have no agenda to promote their own.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

I'm so curious and excited to see what happens with it, but you just put your finger on exactly. The thing that as a teacher, coach, scholar of conversation. This is what's been on my mind about it. Which is what makes someone a good conversationalist is relentlessly trying to focus on the other person and what the other person needs. An AI if you're talking to a chatbot, they don't have any of their own sincere needs. They are only there to serve your needs. And what I worry about is that the more we interact with an entity like that, a non human entity that's just there to serve you. And it's so good at serving you.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

It's amazing at serving you.

[Dax Shepard]

Narcissist machine.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Exactly. Is training us to. When we turn to an actual human, forget that the mission is the complete opposite. Really?

[Monica Padman]

That's so true.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I think a. It's bad muscle memory for future conversations. But I actually don't even think it'll be appealing now. It will be appealing to people who are objectly lonely.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

The reward of conversation is the. The primate social interaction and the approval and the status and the connection and all the web of what being a social primate is. So having it within and out of an object doesn't really get you what you're after.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

I'm so curious to start studying who is this appealing to, who is enjoying it and why.

[Monica Padman]

There will be no stakes in that conversation. With an AI, there's always stakes between any real one on one relationship that come up.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

You're going on a journey through someone else's mind.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

I was just telling Monica when I'm using the AI to make an image, actually to break myself of all my habits I have when dealing with people. And when I was dealing with AI the first time it would generate the image I would go great. Literally take the time to say this to the AI. Great job. Really good start. I think where we could do better. And I did this four or five times. I was like, oh, I don't have to do any of this. I can treat it like a slave.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, but then what if you lost that skill?

[Dax Shepard]

I know. It's like how often am I doing that? Where then I talk to a human like that. Just as obviously my muscle memory made me talk to a computer like that. Which is insane if you think about it.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

It's lovely.

[Dax Shepard]

Good job, little guy.

[Monica Padman]

It's nice.

[Dax Shepard]

You're a good boy.

[Monica Padman]

They want to be real boys. Anyway. This is a ding ding, ding. Because I was just talking about this with one of our friends. She has somebody in her life who doesn't have a Lot of friends and struggles with that. And I was like, well, it would be great if there was a robot friend. This person has other outlets and is not fully reliant on her and can go to dinner with this robot and you can program it to have the type of conversation you want. And yes, it sounds scary, but it's unfair with. Because we're good at making friends.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, I was gonna say. I'm saying that. And that's a luxury. Cause I have real people in my life and I'm not terribly lonely. And I think it'll be more appealing. My prediction for what'll make it work is they're actually going to have to build in tension.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

It has to care about things. That's what's gonna help it simulate a real person. Those desires will never be sincere, but you can tell it to pretend to care about you.

[Dax Shepard]

It means the ability to get pissed off at you and be cold to you for it to be and complicated.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

And I mean ideally not give you what you need all the time.

[Dax Shepard]

It's like when they building the sim as a hedonic treadmill. It won't work. Like if you have a simulation for humans to live in, just getting everything they want all day long will be a failed simulation.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

What I worry about is people who are already lonely probably don't love conversation. Maybe they're not as good at it, or maybe they're just more shy. And then they do find AI particularly rewarding. There are so many underserved populations or vulnerable populations. Why that would be the case. It's like a little bit of a downward spiral then where it's actually then ruining your muscle memory for how to actually engage with real people.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so you lay out an ARC architecture in the book to improve conversation.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

I do.

[Dax Shepard]

And it's conveniently got an acronym, which is talk. So we have topics.

[Monica Padman]

Did you backronym that?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

What does that mean?

[Dax Shepard]

We just learned that.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Oh my God.

[Monica Padman]

No, I am.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Teach me.

[Monica Padman]

This is like Milgram.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Does it mean you back into it?

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

You're out past your skis a lot today.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

I feel really bald. Huge swing, Milgram.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, but okay, did you have talk and then you're like, I'm gonna figure out.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

I honestly don't really remember the deductive versus inductive process of it. What I do remember are the things that struck me as the most helpful and surprising as we were learning them from our research. And then I was able to craft them into a very logical item framework that builds in complexity over time, focuses on the Informational, transactional, things we need to do in conversation. And the emotional, relational stuff, it's in a way quite ambitious because it's trying to engage, encapsulate the full landscape of what we're trying to do in the social world.

[Dax Shepard]

But talk does stand for topics asking, levity, kindness. So let's start with topics. You claim small talk isn't the enemy and I have to push back on that. I talk for a living, I enjoy it so much. But having to talk about the weather, fucking weather.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

But this is the thing you don't do small talk. You move past it immediately. That's why people like listening to you. It's why people like talking to you as you don't get trapped in small.

[Dax Shepard]

So tell me why it's not bad. Why should we embrace it?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

So many things about the way that we talk to each other are deeply ingrained social rituals, small talk among them. You have to start at small talk. If you are meeting someone for the very first time. We have to start somewhere and it has to be a topic that anybody could talk about easily. It's this well worn place that you're searching, ideally, move away from towards something more personalized, more interesting, more exciting. The goal would be to chase the energy away from it. The problem isn't with the small talk itself, but people get trapped there too long. They linger and it starts to feel dutiful and awful and meaningless and shallow. And that's what everybody dreads.

[Dax Shepard]

And this is where we get into what we talked about. Having a bit of a game plan before you end up places. In fact, you talk about the outcome of dates for a second date is kind of measurable if you go in with a bit of a game plan. So one of the techniques is switching topics frequently. You gotta come with some in the holster, I guess.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Actually we saw this in the dating data. One of the killers of conversation, dating or otherwise, are long pauses. Long pauses happen when you've stayed too long on something that you don't have anything left to say.

[Dax Shepard]

You've really beaten a dead horse.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

People start repeating things they've already said about it. They start laughing uncomfortably. The pauses get longer. We gotta go somewhere else.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

By the way, just. Can we take a second? Like that's one of the worst feelings. It is just even you describing it.

[Monica Padman]

Mirror neuron.

[Dax Shepard]

And I think we all do. And that's why people are like, fuck it, I'll just be long with.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

It's this little panicky feeling. Some people feel a great sense of responsibility in those Moments to be the one to come up with the next thing. I think a lot of introverts are sort of like it's not my job. But I'm hating this.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

I'm not gonna fix it. But I feel it. This is the worst. Just having this mindset shift of before you even get to that panicky lull type of thing.

[Dax Shepard]

Move.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Be more assertive about going to somewhere else.

[Dax Shepard]

Don't be afraid to just drop a non sequitur in that.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Oh yeah. People go right with you.

[Dax Shepard]

That's preferred to this long pause. Of course.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Ye. I watched this amazing movie last night on the airplane.

[Dax Shepard]

Which one?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

It was called We Live in Time.

[Monica Padman]

That sounds familiar.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

It's with Florence Pugh and Andrew Garfield.

[Monica Padman]

Feel. Isn't it supposed to be so sad?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

I sobbed the whole way here.

[Dax Shepard]

But you know there's been social science work on this. On an airplane it's worse. You have a heightened sense of vulnerability.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

I was alone and my husband wasn't there. The whole thing.

[Dax Shepard]

Your kids were gonna miss you.

[Monica Padman]

Also. This movie is supposed to be so sad.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

It was amazing. Just for we're get back to the movie. But the reason I raised it is because I did the thing we were were talking about.

[Monica Padman]

I was about to say. I think you're doing it.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

I did the thing where you just start talking about something else and everybody goes with you. You guys.

[Monica Padman]

It's fun.

[Dax Shepard]

Wow.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

You knew that Monica knew she was.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't know. You've been saying you know a lot of stuff that you don't actually know. So I feel like this is continuing the pattern. You've already. I knew it. I knew it. Then why'd you participate?

[Monica Padman]

Because I thought it'd be rude not to. Because I'm a good conversationalist.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Golly. But if you just start talking about something else.

[Dax Shepard]

I feel betrayed. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Be careful who you're talking to.

[Dax Shepard]

I feel manipulated. Now I don't trust you. And I'm scared. Now I'm gonna be dominant.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Well back to the movie. For real. It's so good. It's so good. I sob so much.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Asking questions. This makes sense. I just want to give a personal anecdote. And this is a big shout out to Scotty Johnson. So I met this boy early into la. And everywhere we went every single girl was in love with him. A he was objectively cuter than all of us. That's for sure. But it was happening with guys and with girls and everyone. At first I just chalked it up to he's Magic. You can't really strive for that. You're magic or you're not. But at some point, I was like, this guy asks more questions than anyone I've ever met in my life. And I really made a mental note. Oh, I want to move through the world a lot more like Scotty. And I've got to really up my game on asking questions. It's so powerful.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Let me ask about Scotty. Now.

[Dax Shepard]

I know you just did that.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

No, I didn't even do it on purpose.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. Asking a question.

[Monica Padman]

That one wasn't, and I knew it.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Monica's with me. Did he ask particularly good questions, or was he just asking really anything?

[Dax Shepard]

He had this ability to seem crazy interested in anything, and he probably was. Yeah. By the way, this is an AA thing. Acting your way into thinking different versus thinking your way into acting beautiful. Something could feel fraudulent to you on the surface, but you might be shocked with repetition how genuine it gets.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

This is a debate that we have in my class all the time. Because these students are coming to this class on conversation. I'm teaching them about the types of behaviors that tend to work. And then they try them with intentionality. And of course, through the whole thing, they're thinking, but isn't this manipulative? If I do this with intentionality and knowing that I'm doing it, doesn't that make it, by definition, inauthentic in some way?

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

What's unique about conversation is maybe for a fleeting second and you think to yourself, I should ask a question now. And then you do. In that moment, you're sort of nudging yourself to do it. But everything that comes after that is sincere.

[Dax Shepard]

I'll also add, it's a reward center activity in that what'll shock you is people are more interesting than you thought they were. You can only discover that through asking them questions because they themselves aren't great at remembering the most exciting detail of their life to share with you at that moment. But you could inadvertently lead them. Yes. At first you're doing it in a way that maybe is calculated, but then you're rewarded for it.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

And questions have that beautiful power. You get that reward almost instant. Cause they're gonna tell you stuff. You're gonna see what is interesting in their answer, and then you can keep asking more. In my class, we do an exercise called never ending follow ups.

[Dax Shepard]

Ooh.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

It would be a pair. Like you. One person is the never ending question asker. The other person's just answering. And every time Monica talks, she has to end by asking A follow up question.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, wow.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

And it sounds so extreme, but the experience of it is like Scotty, the experience of it is magic. You immediately move away from small talk. You start learning so much about the.

[Dax Shepard]

It's funny. What a nugget of wisdom improv artists stumbled upon. Because you even reference it in your book using the improv rule of yes and not no. Should we play this game? I feel like we should.

[Monica Padman]

I'm nervous.

[Dax Shepard]

I'll be the. Do you want the sweatshirt? Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Can you? Yeah. So you're going to ask me questions.

[Dax Shepard]

Where'd you get that sweatshirt?

[Monica Padman]

Oh, I got it at Sarah Hendler's studio. It's vintage.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you go there a lot?

[Monica Padman]

The first time I've ever been was yesterday.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Oh.

[Dax Shepard]

What took you so long to check it out?

[Monica Padman]

I guess I'm just busy. I'm busy.

[Dax Shepard]

What are you busy doing?

[Monica Padman]

I work a lot. I have a busy job.

[Dax Shepard]

What do you do?

[Monica Padman]

Have you heard a podcast?

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, Jesus.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, I'm not supposed to. That's where it ends. I gotta go.

[Dax Shepard]

Fuck this. You're on your own, toots. I don't like that sweater.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Hey.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. You did a good job.

[Dax Shepard]

Thank you.

[Monica Padman]

But I felt scared.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you wanna try it?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

You guys, what are you doing? He started playing a character. You started asking questions you already knew the answer to. So part of this that matters is that you should do it as yourself.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I knew the answers to what she did for, but I didn't know that was her first time.

[Monica Padman]

You didn't know where I got my sweater.

[Dax Shepard]

And I don't know why it took you so long. I would have thought you've been there a dozen times.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

You learned a lot very quickly. That's true.

[Monica Padman]

I guess you didn't learn that I was busy, but. Yeah, because you already know that.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

We got to reverse it.

[Monica Padman]

I was so scared. Okay, what should I ask? Well, I want to ask a serious question.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Can I?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

You're working on a personal. Personal project. It's been taxing and I want to know how you're doing.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm still in the middle of it, so I don't know how I'm doing.

[Monica Padman]

If you do a scale of one to ten. Ten being the most relief and one being agony. That's a weird scale.

[Dax Shepard]

I would say four.

[Monica Padman]

And are you doing anything to help balance it out?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Cutting my hair compulsively and I'm exercising compulsively and I'm trying not to blow my nose, which is new.

[Monica Padman]

Can you tell me more about why Are you stopping. Stopped blowing your nose?

[Dax Shepard]

I got convinced that I don't actually have allergies, that I've just injured my nose from blowing it so hard, and then it's sending white blood cells to repair it, and then that is snot that I have to then blow really hard to get out. And then I'm just caught in this endless pattern of damaging and repairing, and I feel like I just have to stop for it to end.

[Monica Padman]

Are you an addict?

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, like a motherfucker.

[Monica Padman]

Attracts. Okay, but I didn't. I know some of the answers.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, it's hard.

[Monica Padman]

We talk a lot.

[Dax Shepard]

Where did you get your pants?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

I got these at a local store near where I live.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Do you notice what all the other moms are doing? And do you feel like you pick up on, like, I'm not sure what pants I'm supposed to be wearing, but somehow everyone knows. How do you pay attention and figure it out?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

I love fashion. I actually talk about this with some of my mom friends as, like, a fashionista gets older. You get fewer and fewer touch points with people who are actually fashionable, which is alarming because you're like, oh, no. I feel myself getting out of touch.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you have to factor in your age?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Yes. So I have hundreds of students who are in their 20s. So I get to observe that I have fancy colleagues who are all ages and flavors of style. I then have all my community friends, cool parents, and then there's social media. So I'm like, am I following the right influencer accounts? Am I getting the right ads? Calculus for women deciding what to wear in different contexts they find themselves in is so complicated.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so here's a calculated question I would ask, and I realize how I operate in thinking of this question, which is I would go, if you taken too big of a swing.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Oh, I try not to. So this is part one of my goals. I used to go much harder when I was in my 20s. I wanted to get noticed. I wanted to be different. I wanted to be the one sort of setting the trend. As I've gotten older, I think it's more about not taking too big of a swing. I don't like that feeling.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so you haven't, like, arrived at a restaurant and been like, oh, boy, I went too young with this?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

No, I played a little safer. I would say, even today I was gonna wear, like, a hot pink sweater. And the last second, yeah, what a cute black. Thank you.

[Monica Padman]

Wait, you said you were afraid to ask that.

[Dax Shepard]

No, no, no. So I know that the kind of Questions I ask. I want to get to a time you got embarrassed. Yeah, because that's vulnerable and that's very bonding.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

You didn't doing it to me.

[Monica Padman]

You thought this was a random thing.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

You were just asking me. That's so fun.

[Dax Shepard]

But I want to get to the point. Cause I think what's very bonding in a fast pass is as soon as we can get vulnerable. So if I can get to a point where you went too far.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

This is something always working on in myself about conversation is more quickly revealing my vulnerability, my mistakes, my failures, my moments of embarrassment and shame. I'm so hungry to get it out of other people and probably too slow to share it with others.

[Dax Shepard]

To me, it's such a fast pass. Like, oh, great, we're both now laughing at the time I tried to wear combat boots and you tried to wear this. We've just broken through a layer. And now I can kind of live here.

[Monica Padman]

I have that too. But sometimes it can backfire in a dating. I mean, even the question I asked you was immediately vulnerable. I do tend to do that even on early dates, because I want to know for myself what's going on with this person. How introspective are they? How interesting are they? And so I'm like, tell me about your trauma and tell me about your trauma.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

How do they respond that you think that's not good? They're guarded, they feel threatened.

[Monica Padman]

They often do it. And that's lovely. But then if I then don't want to go on another date, oh, then I know the guilty because. Because I've now put them in a position to be very vulnerable and maybe.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

And make them feel worse because you actually know them.

[Monica Padman]

Well, that's another bad thing. But I feel sort of manipulative. I put you in a position to be vulnerable. You were.

[Dax Shepard]

You trusted me.

[Monica Padman]

And then I deserved you with your heart.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

And I stomped on it. The reframe of that is that you actually gave it a chance. Nobody needs to waste their time small talking with people.

[Dax Shepard]

We're getting so off topic. But this is really interesting. I think when I have to do my own sexual inventory, as you have to do in aa, and I think about times I've been irresponsible or not. I think what I underestimated sometimes is it came very easy and natural for me to have those kind of conversations with women. And for a lot of those women, it was such a unique thing. They had only experienced with someone they were deeply in love with. And I do think it was quite misleading at times. To women, which I fear in their reflection felt like manipulation or something. But it just kind of how I am.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

You're a sharer.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. And I think it fast forwarded. It's kind of like this thing we learned about in England where the GIs got all these English girls pregnant. Americans kiss really quick. English don't kiss for a long time. They jumped ahead 10 seconds.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

This is verbal kissing. This is you sharing something vulnerable.

[Dax Shepard]

A lot of people will associate that with a very unique kind of relationship they've only had once and it was love.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

There are people though, every relationship in their life is like this and they want nothing else. Myself included.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, same.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

I have a colleague at Harvard named Leslie John who's writing a book called Reveal. And it's all about this conundrum of the spectrum from full opacity where you share nothing to full transparency. If you could download the full contents of your brain and give it to somebody else as a gift. We're making these choices constantly of how much do we share of ourselves and what consequences come from it. Closeness and skipping ahead and accelerating a relationship development is one of the pros. One of the downsides is it really does make you more vulnerable to heartbreak or exploitation. Essentially.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I have this in male friendships a lot too. And this runs the risk of sounding arrogant, but I have observed it and it's real. Which is a lot of guys are comfortable telling me things they generally won't tell other guys, which is an incredible privilege and it's beautiful. But I may be the only person they do that with and so I'm kind of their best friend. And then maybe they could feel hurt because I don't have a capacity for 150 best friends.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

I think about this all the time. One of the downsides of getting really good at conversation is that you don't actually have the bandwidth to be the best friend, the best boss, the best colleague to confidant to a thousand people. And it's such a first world problem. If you really work on this skill and people are willing to trust you and share with you and love being with you, the problem then becomes that person actually doesn't have the time and energy to fulfill that role all the time to that many people.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I don't see the future solution being I'm less connected in a safe place to chat. It's that I think there's more options for those people to have that experience with multiple people. That's the positive future is that there's a lot more dudes that Are willing to chat about that stuff.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

One of my book.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm going to send them your bullet. Okay, so asking questions. We got that. But I do want to ask what a boomer ask is about myself. I'm shriveling with embarrassment.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

It is not about boomers. Let me say that first of all. It is about people. Humans of all ages. And it's named after a boomerang. So it's when I ask you a question. So if I say to you, monica, how was your weekend?

[Monica Padman]

It was relaxing. How was yours?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Let me tell you about my weekend.

[Monica Padman]

You're asking so that you can talk.

[Dax Shepard]

It can be even more grotesque and direct. You can go like, have you ever been to Tibet?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Exactly. Very specific.

[Dax Shepard]

You ever been in a fight at Franklin in Highland? Yeah, like, I'm clearly just trying to.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Very specific. Yeah. So this is boomerasking because it's like a boomerang. You're throwing out the boomerang. You let them answer, and then you bring it right back to yourself immediately.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

People do it all the time.

[Dax Shepard]

I do it. God, I hate that I do it. Do you do it, Moni?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I think probably everyone does it in certain circumstances. I did it today on the fact check, but that's a little tricky.

[Dax Shepard]

Cause it's a product.

[Monica Padman]

It's a product. And so weirdly, it's a mix of.

[Dax Shepard]

These, and then our feelings get hurt.

[Monica Padman]

Well, no, no, no. We both come in sometimes knowing, I'm gonna tell this story, knowing it will lead to a real. I. This morning was like, oh, my hand looks different. Oh, I'm gonna bring that up on the fact check.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Your hand looks different.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, it's a huge development.

[Monica Padman]

And then it's scars. And then you're looking at your hand like, whose hand is this?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

You have very lovely hands.

[Monica Padman]

Thank you very much. They were glowing a week ago. Thank you. But anyway, so I sat down and I said, have you ever had this experience? To start the conversation.

[Dax Shepard]

You're open to hearing. I've had a similar.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I did want to know the answer. But also I was like, we're gonna to talk about this now.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

It's all about the timing. So if you really want to hear about Dax's hand car experiences and he shares with you very openly. The important thing is follow up on his thing first. So it feels like you actually care. Because you do.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Before we get back to your hand changing into a new.

[Monica Padman]

Luckily, he did not understand what I was talking about.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Understandably.

[Dax Shepard]

You wonder what's better. Come out and tell a story you want to tell.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

So we studied that exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, tell me.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

So we randomly assign people to either start with a question, let someone answer, and then tell a story, or just tell the story. Just telling the story is better, whether you're bragging, whether you're complaining, or whether you're just saying something weird and neutral like, oh, I think my hand morphed into a different hand. It's better to just share it, which then may trigger reciprocity. That's the hope. But you don't have control over that. But you're gonna get the satisfaction of sharing whatever this thing you're dying to share. And you hope that the person you're talking to is actually interested and ask about it or share about themselves.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Interesting.

[Dax Shepard]

What's a gotcha question?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

That's almost a gotcha question unto itself. It's not.

[Monica Padman]

It's not.

[Dax Shepard]

It's not.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

A gotcha question is really in the eye of the receiver. If the person feels like you're testing.

[Dax Shepard]

Them or leading them.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Leading them, making them feel like you want to prove how incompetent they are, that they're a liar, expose them as a fraud. So if I were to say, Dax, you said that you were an actor. Are you acting in anything right now?

[Monica Padman]

Oh, yeah.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Like, what the hell? You could do it for fun if we're best friends. And I wanna tease you, that's a really funny way to do it if we're not. And that's a legitimate question. What an asshole. Yeah, that's a really quick way to make someone feel really bad.

[Dax Shepard]

Alison, you can't imagine how many people who only know me from acting will see me at the airport and they'll go, what do you got coming out? And then I go, I have a podcast, and they don't have any sense that it's successful.

[Monica Padman]

I hate the asking, though.

[Dax Shepard]

They feel so bad.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

The nice thing, what they're really saying.

[Dax Shepard]

Is, I like watching you.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I want to keep my eyes out.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

For something you're in.

[Dax Shepard]

But when I say I'm busy doing a podcast instead of acting, they get upset. I think they feel really bad for me.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

No, I'm reading you as you're asking me this to embarrass me, to exploit me, to make me look bad. That's a gotcha question. The same question lobbed from someone who doesn't actually know the answer and really cares about you.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Just wants to know.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Great. The importance is like, sort of caring, intention.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

At 24. I lost my narrative, or rather, it was stolen from me, and the Monica Lewinsky that my friends and family knew was usurped by false narratives, callous jokes, and politics. I would define reclaiming as to take back back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. So I think listeners can expect me to be chatting with folks, both recognizable and unrecognizable names about the way that people have navigated roads to triumph. My hope is that people will finish an episode of Reclaiming and feel like they filled their tank up, they connected with the people that I'm talking to and leave with with maybe some nuggets that help them feel a little more hopeful. Follow Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Reclaiming early and ad free right now by joining Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

[Dax Shepard]

Behind the closed doors of government offices and military compounds, there are hidden stories and buried secrets from the darkest corners of history. From COVID experiments pushing the battle boundaries of science to operations so secretive they were barely whispered about, Each week on Redacted Declassified Mysteries, we pull back the curtain on These hidden histories, 100% true and verifiable stories that expose the shadowy underbelly of power. Consider Operation Paperclip, where former Nazi scientists were brought to America after World War II not as prisoners, but as assets to advance US intelligence during the Cold War. These aren't just old concepts, conspiracy theories. They're thoroughly investigated accounts that reveal the uncomfortable truths still shaping our world today. The stories are real. The secrets are shocking. Follow Declassified Mysteries on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Redacted early and ad free right now on Wondery.

[Monica Padman]

Hey everyone, it's your girl, Keke Palmer.

[Dax Shepard]

Did you know I host a podcast called Baby this is Keke Palmer and.

[Monica Padman]

You'Re not going to believe the conversations I've had. Bad like is OnlyFans only bad. How has dating changed in the digital age? What's the deal with Disney adults?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

I talked to John Stamos, the vp.

[Dax Shepard]

Kamala hers to Jordan Peele, Raven Simone, and yes, the one and only Jamila Jamil.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

And just wait until you hear our conversation.

[Dax Shepard]

We talk Twitter drama, bad dates, and then time.

[Monica Padman]

How the hell do you actually get sexy? Like, what the hell does that mean? Like, I know how to be funny. I know how to be like.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

You know what I'm saying?

[Dax Shepard]

Exactly. But I don't really know how to.

[Monica Padman]

Be like and take your clothes. I'm not robbing fucking givens. You know, it's like, how do people do that?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

I've been in this situation too many times and not. Not felt any of those things. The dull eyes, the quiet. Like, I've never been quiet a moment in my life. Yes on Baby, this is Keke Palmer.

[Dax Shepard]

No topic is off limits. Follow Baby, this is Kiki Palmer.

[Monica Padman]

On the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus plus.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, let's get to levity. Probably my favorite part. I could see where people wouldn't prioritize levity.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Can I give you guys a compliment?

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, please.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Which is a levity move. Oh, she's doing it. Really? I think the reason that this podcast and you guys are so great is because you're so good at balancing gravity and levity. It's almost the whole mission of the conversations you have is you. You want to have stuff you take seriously and you take learning seriously. You take issues and topics seriously, and all the way along, you want it to be fun.

[Monica Padman]

Very nice compliment.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Thank you.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

You accomplished the mission.

[Monica Padman]

I agree that that's the mission.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Do you disagree that that's the mission?

[Dax Shepard]

No. I was trying to do a really thorough and honest assessment of the motive behind that.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

My motive.

[Dax Shepard]

Mine.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Oh, let's assess why.

[Dax Shepard]

I think the thing that might be truest is under all of it is it is my tool to both let go of power and maintain power by being vulnerable and honest. I'm giving away my power and I'm scared. But I always have the skillset to steer the reaction if necessary. I do think it's my way of controlling how vulnerable I'll be.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

So we've done research on the relationship between humor and power.

[Dax Shepard]

Wow.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Even one joke or one moment where you make other people laugh in a conversation means you're much more likely to be voted as the leader of the group.

[Dax Shepard]

Wow.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

So I think often when we think of levity or humor, we have a tendency to think of it as, like, this bonus, this extra sparkly thing that might happen sometimes. And that's nice when you actually study the psychology of humor and levity in conversation and its relationship with status and power, the core determinant of the status hierarchy. So I think your sense of I'm doing this to reclaim power and control is legitimate.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Cause when I tell you something that's very revealing, I get immediately scared, as I think most people do. And it's broader than this room. So my mind can't help but imagine, however, a million people take the thing I just said, and then I can take the legs out from it if I want to at any moment.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

And it's this little micro moment of power. Because you're like, I know I'm going to say this thing, and I'm pretty sure you're going to laugh. Just even that power over somebody, to evoke that emotional response in that moment is. And it signals something about you, that you have the competence, the wherewithal, the dominance to make that happen again in the future. And people read that as a very core competency.

[Dax Shepard]

It's really interesting. I also think it enables you to take big swings because you can neutralize it. I think of Jess. Jess is very, very funny. He's also very, very provocative. So he's saying really provocative things. And if they go sideways, he's great at acknowledging they went sideways to then release the pressure.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

A lot of funny people do this. This recovery thing. I'll be here all night. That was right. Right. The recovery of like. Well, at least I tried. So in this same research where we're studying humor and power, what we found is even when jokes totally flop, people don't laugh. They think they're inappropriate. They don't think they're funny. You still get a boost in how people perceive your confidence. Cause you were at least confident enough to try.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

And even that is admirable.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Kindness. And this is where we really get into listening. I feel like this overlaps a bit with asking questions. But why does it deserve its own category?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Moment to Mom. When people are talking to each other, when they're walking through the world, what are kind people thinking about and what are they saying to other people? I would say the psychologist. So curious to try and figure that out. And I think we've come up with some pretty concrete answers. Of what? People who are prioritizing other people's needs more frequently than others. These are kind people, and they do some predictable things during conversation. More respectful language that makes people feel worthy and seen and known and understood.

[Dax Shepard]

Could you give me an example of respectful language?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Using people's names is a good start. I think you're worthy of even knowing who you are just as a starting place. Think of how many conversations you've had where you didn't know someone's name. It's a very uneasy feeling because you can't give them that respect. How can I show you that I care about you and respect you? If I don't even know your name. That's a weird feeling. Let's slap on name tags, guys.

[Monica Padman]

Right?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Just as a start, that's such a basic thing. But every little linguistic choice you make is a opportunity to show respect or not. Positive language is more respectful than negative. It shows people that you like being with them. Literally things like, great, good, awesome, cool, love that. As opposed to negative language. That's like, no, that sucks. That makes you feel like you're not enjoying being with me. And then making people feel like they're worthy of your time and attention, which then ties into listening. So when we think about listening, there's decades of work on active listening, which is mostly non verbal cue like nodding, smiling, smiling, leaning forward. In our more recent research on listening, what we find is great conversationalists use their words to show people that they've heard them. Those can't be faked. So if you're sitting on zoom, you can be like smiling and nodding, but you're off to the side making a grocery list or texting your friends. What you can't fake are things like follow up questions, callbacks, which is your ding, ding, ding. I think, yeah, right.

[Monica Padman]

Love a ding, ding, ding.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Can't fake a ding, ding, ding if you didn't hear it the first time. Paraphrasing what other people have said, repeating back to them what they've said. Am I understanding you right? There's another piece of kindness that we haven't talked about yet, which is receptiveness to opposing viewpoints. So when you confront a moment of difficulty where you really disagree, many of these same skills, the listening with your words and validating people, that's when it becomes especially important and especially hard to do. Imagine you hate people who had affairs. And in that moment your friend says, I'm having an affair. And in that moment, what a good conversationalist would do would be. I hear that you're saying you had an affair. It makes so much sense that you're feeling upset about that. Let's consider for a second why this is a bad decision. So before you go on to disagree with them, you have to do that hard work of validating them. And almost everyone skips that totally.

[Dax Shepard]

You're not a terrible, flawed person. You're not broken. You did something a lot of people do. And we gotta make sure you wake up with your family for the rest of your life. How do we get there exactly?

[Monica Padman]

It's so interesting, this whole topic, because I feel like we think about it a lot. I don't know If I'm gonna get in trouble for saying this, but for people who are neurodivergent like the show.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Everyone loves a love on the spectrum. I love that show.

[Monica Padman]

I didn't watch it. Everyone loved it. There was a lot of this teaching how to have conversations and active listening. All these tools.

[Dax Shepard]

Eye contact, yes.

[Monica Padman]

It's so lovely to see that in practice. But it's also kind of arrogant of neurotypical people who are watching and they're like, yeah, they don't know how to do that.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Nobody's doing it. No one's doing it.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

I love watching that show. Actually, one of the tactics most helpful on that show, they have these really lovely coaches who come in before their dates, and they have them brainstorm topics ahead of time. And I'm like, yeah, everybody needs to be doing that.

[Dax Shepard]

Neurotypical neurodivergent is a false dichotomy in and of itself. This binary notion. We're all on this weird spectrum with varying degrees of adeptness in all different.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Vectors in all different directions.

[Dax Shepard]

There are people who are not neurodivergent who are very uncomfortable with eye contact. I talk to them all the time. There are any number of things that they might be struggling with. They don't go to fucking dates with topics. They're just going to let their neurotypicalness take over.

[Monica Padman]

Correct.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Now, when you get into a group conversation, it gets more complicated. That seems pretty obvious. But I did want to talk specifically about the status hierarchy effect of a group chat and how it changes within conversations.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

I think to some people, it's not a how much more difficult groups are than dyads than one on one. Because it feels like you're doing the same task. You're talking, you're listening, you're with other people. It's clear that it's harder to coordinate, but I don't think we've realized how much harder. Even here. This whole time, I'm toggling my eye gaze between both of you. Monica's so patient. She's such a good listener. And we're all doing this calculus that's quite a bit different than if it were just me and Monica or just me and Dax together. As soon as a third person pulls up a chair, everything changes. Someone sit there, be part of the conversation, and never talk. That's different than one on one, where you have to go back and forth. And so I think people don't realize that as group size grows, the coordination challenges of all conversations grow exponentially. Every person in the group Has a unique shared reality, a unique relationship. What's boring to Dax might be really exciting to me and Monica. So all of those little micro decisions get even more fraught. And one of the things that we have to navigate is status differences as people get thrown into the mix. Every group has an inherent status hierarchy. So the status hierarchy is determined by all kinds of things. Sometimes it's a formal hierarchy, like at an organization, there's a boss, or on an army battalion, there's the leader of levels. Sometimes it's age, sometimes it's level of wealth, sometimes it's expertise. But it's other things. Gender, it's race. It's all of these things that our minds are doing. This calculation of who has the most power here, who has the most liking and respect, who's the most influential. And we do this internal sort of ranking in a group, and it affects all the ways that people behave. We tend to look at people who have high status. When they're speaking, they speak more. So you look at them. But also when they're not speaking, we look to see their emotional reactions because they determine the norms. Like, are they surprised by this? Are they pissed about this? Should I be pissed about this? Which makes lower status group members feel invisible. You're literally not looking at them as much. They feel less welcome to contribute the revelation that we've sort of realized by studying conversations at the topic level. As you move from one thing to another, the status hierarchy shifts from one topic to the next.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, interesting.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

We start talking about fashion.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

All of a sudden I am not going to be looking at Dax as much. I'm going to be deferring to Monica, who's the expert. Oh, yeah, I forgot to give you my gift. She's coming in a little bit. If you're good, if you're good, if you behave yourselves. But if we switch to a new topic on which I have the most expertise, things are going to change. Imagine there's five other people here who have all different expertise and levels of status. So it's shifting dynamically as we move from one topic to the next. It's not like you go to a work meeting and the boss guy's always top dog. Imagine you land on a topic where all of a sudden low woman on the totem pole has all the value to add. She better feel safe and included enough and welcome to speak when you get to that topic.

[Dax Shepard]

You probably don't want to be ensnared in this, but I can't resist right now. I constantly talk about I think status is what we are most conscious of at all times. I think it is driving so much of everything. I think it's just baked into being a social primate. I don't think it's escapable. I think there's a lot of young people who think the solution to this is the eradication of status.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

You can. It's how our brains are born.

[Dax Shepard]

Even these movements I see like main character energy versus supporting cast. All the movement is to get rid of status. And to me it's just like saying let's get rid of being bipedal and walk on all fours. We have to acknowledge it's there, accept that it's there and figure out how to navigate it best. But the notion of obliterating status eradication's.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Not the right goal. The goal instead, the sort of reframe is when you are in that high status position, what can you do to lift other people up? When you're in the low status role and you're marginalized, what can you possibly do to cope with a very difficult position that you're in?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, it sucks.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

It sucks. You have a narrower range of things that, that you're allowed to say that will be seen as appropriate or as a value add. So then you're less likely to speak. And if you never speak, you're not actually bringing value. Nobody ever gets to know you and what you can do. It's this crazy double bind. Our job is to try and learn as much as we can about each other regardless of status. But you can't eradicate it. It's what we're built to do and status striving. Right. We all want to ascend and maintain.

[Dax Shepard]

Whether we're conscious of it. It means more food and safety.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Yeah, food and safety and attraction and reproduction.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Okay, I'm going to jump to apologies. And I got to give credit to aa. There's a few things that it forced me to do. I had to embrace the dogma. My favorite thing is the four step I've talked about here before. Learning to actually take an inventory of how you feel and what fears are being triggered. That's been so incredible to understand. But being forced to say apologies, make amends, and then getting the experience of delivering some of those and finding out the reactions. Not at all what you're afraid it'll be. I don't know how anyone else learns that unless they're in a program that demands. It was the ten step. We have to do that daily. It's not just, oh, what you accumulated as an addict, it's like daily, how is my behavior maybe impacted someone negatively? And I have an obligation to clean that up because if I don't clean that up, I will have low self esteem and hate myself and I will use. So it's imperative. And through practicing this for 20 years, a few truths have emerged. One is it never goes bad like you think it's gonna. And then what you realize immediately is like, oh, no one's getting apologized to.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Because the reaction to most people I make amends to or apologize to is shock.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

When you say that people's reactions are sometimes not what you expect, in what direction are the reactions surprising or have been surprising?

[Dax Shepard]

Almost unanimously. Understanding, comforting and touch that you did care. I think what people want to know is that you acknowledge that was hurtful and that you're not someone that is disposable, that they don't worry that they've upset.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Can I tell you who I talked to about this, please? Orna. You hang out with Orna Goralnick from Couple Therapy.

[Monica Padman]

We are obsessed.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

So this chapter on apologies opens with this story from Couples Therapy. One of the couples on the show.

[Monica Padman]

Which one?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Teshira and Drew, they're from, I think, season one or two. They're amazing. She got pregnant and they started living together. They were in a really.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

I think it was in the pandemic phase of the show. Ish.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And he would bounce back to moms a lot.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Yes. And they didn't sleep in the same room, which is fine. For those of you who don't go sleep, it's fine. But they were in a really rocky place. I thought that they were not gonna end up together. And then you follow them through their therapy, and by the end, one of the things that they got so good at is apologizing to each other. They're not snipping at each other anymore. They're not like chewing on their resentments. And so I talk to Orna about it, what she thinks of apologies broadly and in the context of this couple, couple in particular, and she was like, here's what apologies do. Two things. One, they show someone that you understand them, that you understand that there was harm to you. And maybe it was at your hands, maybe it wasn't. But it shows that you understand them and that you are taking some responsibility, that you care that they've been harmed and that you want to be part of the solution. That if you can show those two things, that you understand someone and you're taking accountability, if you can do that, without apologizing. You don't have to apologize. However, apologies are the best shortcut that we have to do those two things in a sincere and really meaningful way. I really think they're the most powerful thing we have in our conversational toolkit.

[Dax Shepard]

My kids are great at it. Maybe the thing I'm most proud of my children.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

I said the same thing in the book. I wrote this little story about my oldest, Kevin. It was honestly the most rewarding moment I think, ever as a parent.

[Dax Shepard]

What did he apologize about?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Oh, it's a doozy. He was a heck of a Todd. He was like a biter hitter.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

He used a headbutt. He has all these big ideas, and he was a late talker. He was so frustrated, he couldn't express.

[Dax Shepard]

Them because boys are dumb.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Yeah. So dumb.

[Dax Shepard]

Communicate.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

So he was having a tantrum, and I picked him up and he flung his head back and he broke my nose. You can see it's like a little crooked. It's okay. I know I still look great. It's a little crooked. It's fine.

[Dax Shepard]

You're finally different from Sarah.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

You can know.

[Dax Shepard]

You're welcome. Not an apology.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

He had to be maybe three at the time. It was so enraging. For all the reasons I still hadn't taught him to be the kind of person who wouldn't hurt someone like that. He also was three, so he didn't really care. A hard mothering phase. Fast forward. He's now 9, turning 10. Maybe it was around when he was 7. He was reading Diary of a Wimpy Kid. And the main character, Greg Heffley. We were reading together, and Greg Heffley apologized to Rowley, which is his best friend, which was rare. He's kind of usually like a jerk to his best friend. And Kevin paused and in that moment turned to me and he was like, mom, remember when I broke your nose when I was like a toddler? And I said, yeah, it wasn't great.

[Dax Shepard]

I won't ever forget it, Kevin.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

I will never forget it. Thank you for the reminder that he's staring back at me in the mirror every day. He looked in my eyes and he goes, I'm so sorry.

[Monica Padman]

Aw.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

It was so beautiful. I couldn't believe that occurred to him.

[Dax Shepard]

It's more powerful than I love you.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

In a lot more powerful because it's harder to do, harder to say.

[Dax Shepard]

It is the action of loving someone, not just the words.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

You're right. You are doing an action by apologizing that is harder and more vulnerable to do. It Is the action of love rather than just saying it.

[Dax Shepard]

I know how hard it is for me. And they just did that. They fucking love me.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

They're also saying in that moment. I'm saying this to you because I want to have a relationship with you in the future. Because I want you to see me as the kind of person that deserves being in a relationship with, and I want to be with you. And my standards for us are high. Let's get back there.

[Dax Shepard]

It's fucking awesome. It's so hard. And I wish people could just practice monocult. I've gone too far. This is one of my favorite stories. This house has been worked on for seven years, right? That's how long it took. And we lived here through lots of the construction. And I had all my car chargers plugged into this one extension cord. And I came out and guys were working, they were sawing, and all my chargers were unplugged. And I was late to bring the girls to school. There were a bunch of. Of things had piled up. And my reaction was, don't fucking unplug my shit. I fucking. There's an extinct. Like, I really lost it.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And I dropped the girls off at school, and I'm like, ugh, I feel terrible about this. These guys are working their asses off. I'm an entitled rich person. How ugly of me. I've got to say sorry, come back. And I'm like, guys, guys. There's like nine or 10 guys working. I just want to say I'm really sorry about how I talked to you guys. None of you deserve that. I know you're working really hard, and I'm so sorry. And what was funny is this apology went on long enough that I did recognize. Oh, this is more painful than the shouting. Was this, like, male on male? Vulnerability is actually making them want to throw up more than the yelling. So then I was like, make sure my apologies are serving the people. I'm trying to apologize.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

But this is the crux of kindness always is figuring out what other people need. Do they need to hear the apology? Most of the time, the answer is yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

And every once in a while, if you're apologizing like nine times for the same thing, you're gonna start just reminding the person of the thing that happened that wasn't good. There is a tipping point where it becomes too much.

[Monica Padman]

Or you just start feeling like, well, that means nothing. Cause you gotta be hearing this all the time and nothing's changing.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

There is not a single study of live conversation that Shows that refusing to apologize or neglecting to apologize is better than apologizing. But the sort of tipping point is when your partner doesn't feel like it's sincere.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Or you're not doing it well, you're saying like, I'm so sorry you feel that way. There's a lot of ways to give a bad apology. So you need to apologize frequently, but.

[Dax Shepard]

Do it well and really curb your behavior.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Don't just promise to change. Actually change.

[Dax Shepard]

I was going to say that's. One upside of having to do a ten step as well is that I am sometimes on the verge of blowing it.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Blowing sobriety or blowing relational yelling at somebody.

[Dax Shepard]

And as I'm about to fly, I go, I'll be apologizing for this. So weirdly, can curb your behavior too, if you're in a real habit of.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Doing it, because it's part of the healthy suite of skills that is going to help you do the right thing to begin with.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

If you're able to anticipate, it's going to be super hard for me to stonewall for a while. Take space, come back, apologize, give them time, then they forgive me, then we move on. That process can be circumvented by not yelling in the first place. Yeah, but we're human. We're all going to mess up. We're all going to yell at people sometimes if they break your nose.

[Dax Shepard]

Just hope you don't get physical. When someone breaks your nose, know that's about the best you can do.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

His name's Kevin. So I was like the mom from Home Alone. They're like, kevin, I like, plopped him down and ran away to look in the mirror. It's damaged.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, Allison, this has been a blast. I hope everyone checks out. Talk the Science of conversation and the Art of Being ourselves. And I'm really jealous of everyone that gets to take your class.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, me too.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

How fun, you guys. Thank you so much for having me. Oh, it's so fun.

[Monica Padman]

So helpful for so many people.

[Dax Shepard]

I think I want to interview Sarah now.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

You should. I want to see how you can call her. You want to call her? She is.

[Monica Padman]

This is very.

[Dax Shepard]

I want them to both come in with the goal of tricking us.

[Monica Padman]

Are you Sarah?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Maybe I am.

[Dax Shepard]

I love it. It would be like a sociopath. We interview. You'll never know what's what.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

We did a twin trick in my class the first year I ever taught. I didn't tell anyone I had a twin. Saved it till the end of the semester. It was Our day on deception. And we dressed the same. And I went in, and I did the normal milling with the students before then you go out to close the door, but Sarah came back in, and she started the class, and she just opened her arms, and she was like, deception, what do we think? And she got the class having a discussion. They went on for, like, five minutes.

[Monica Padman]

Wow.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

And at some point, a student raised his hand, and he goes, I think we're being deceived right now.

[Dax Shepard]

The Monica of the room.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

The Monica of the room. The precog of the room. I was like, I think we're being deceived. And so I ran in, and it was like a standing ovation.

[Dax Shepard]

Wow. This is my favorite movie. The Nolan movie.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Prestige. I want to rewatch it.

[Monica Padman]

I want to rewatch it too.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

And it was a twin thing, wasn't it? In the end, that was the ultimate trick, is it was a twin thing.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, you got to live the routine.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. And he, like, loved one girl with girls with. Okay. All right, Allison, this has been a blast. I hope everyone checks out. Talk, please. Come again when you write another book.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Thank you so much, you guys. You're awesome.

[Dax Shepard]

Hi there. This is Hermion Permium. If you like that, you're gonna love the Fact checker with Ms. Monica. Oh, guess what. This is some hot goss.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, great.

[Dax Shepard]

Kristin was at the doctor today, and there's an anesthesiologist there. And the last time she met him, right before he gave her the local, he was behind her, and she was face down. And he said, welcome, welcome, welcome, as he.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Oh, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So then this time she was like, oh, I'll bring him a sweatshirt or a T shirt or something. So she brought him something today, and he said, I need you to know that I was eliminated in the second round of Taking Monica on a Date.

[Monica Padman]

Wait, what?

[Dax Shepard]

Do you remember when you guys put out, like, a.

[Monica Padman]

For Monica and Jess, season two? I guess that's the only time we put anything out. But we didn't even get that far.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, he submitted.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

I know. An anesthesiologist.

[Monica Padman]

They're very wealthy.

[Dax Shepard]

They are. That's supposed to be the highest starting salary in 1993, when I was in high school and looked it up.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my goodness.

[Dax Shepard]

I feel.

[Monica Padman]

I feel sorry.

[Dax Shepard]

You feel flattered, and then you feel guilty that you feel flattered.

[Monica Padman]

Well, I feel guilty that someone felt eliminated. We need to have her say. We need to have her clear things up.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, she's got to fake an injury.

[Monica Padman]

Bring a New. A new item like a mug and say.

[Dax Shepard]

And people will be so concerned. Her shoulder hurts. Just. That's not. She doesn't have any issue. I think when they hear anesthesia, people will be off to the races. I find that flattering, don't you think? Do you think most people would be flattered to hear a doctor has thoughts for him? We do that, right?

[Monica Padman]

I'm attracted to that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Right. I'm susceptible to that.

[Monica Padman]

I feel flustered.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Because there's this hot anesthesia.

[Monica Padman]

Is he married now? Because that was a while ago.

[Dax Shepard]

Married and divorced.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Great.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Fraud.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, and consummation.

[Monica Padman]

That's bad on her end. Oh, that's good.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. We should put out as an impromptu.

[Monica Padman]

Great idea, Robbie.

[Dax Shepard]

Write it down.

[Monica Padman]

Write it down.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Annulments.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my gosh. Maybe he's a vulnerable.

[Dax Shepard]

He's certainly a vulnerable. You wouldn't listen to this if you were a boy.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

If you were not a vulnerable.

[Monica Padman]

Unless you're a cookie boy cook. Speaking of.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, let's talk.

[Monica Padman]

We have big news. I mean, we've already discussed this before. We have new merch out.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

And it's fun.

[Dax Shepard]

It is. You want to hear something crazy?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So one of. I was. I was thinking. And I just want to continue to thank the armchairs who showed up in San Francisco. It really made the whole show. When I was leaving the theater, I took pictures with folks and a woman had our new T shirt on.

[Monica Padman]

Which one?

[Dax Shepard]

The crow, the mouse, and the cherries. Oh.

[Monica Padman]

As a cheers.

[Dax Shepard]

And I go, oh, my God. I got so confused. I thought, are they already out? And she bought one. And I go, oh, my God, you have one of the T shirts. And she goes, it's. I know. It's pirated. And I go, oh, that's okay. We're actually weirdly making that T shirt now.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So I saw it as like, it was a really good idea because here, this person went on their own and made it.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, great.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Well, yeah, we have all. All of our limited sweatshirt designs on.

[Dax Shepard]

T shirts on T shirts available.

[Monica Padman]

We have our own shop popping. We have a pop up. We have a pop up merch shop that will be up until we have official merch with Wondery and Amazon. And that's probably going to be at the end of March. Ish. So until then, we have our pop up merch that we made into our own. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so get on there.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

There's.

[Monica Padman]

I'm really proud of a lot of the designs. I think they're really cute. So we have those teas.

[Dax Shepard]

Right?

[Monica Padman]

And then we have.

[Dax Shepard]

So we have welcome the robot. Welcome, welcome, welcome, Matt. And then we have ball set Cowboy.

[Monica Padman]

Yep. We have the, the cowboy on the mic. On the microphone, we have duck, Duck, goose.

[Dax Shepard]

Huh?

[Monica Padman]

And we have crow, cherries and mouse. They're on teas now. And now. And we have two new teas. We have a cookie boy tea.

[Dax Shepard]

Cookie boy time.

[Monica Padman]

And a reverse back tea.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

That's only for the pur. Via Sarm cherries out there because I think you are inviting some sexual attention if you're wearing a reverse back shirt.

[Monica Padman]

You might want that.

[Dax Shepard]

I would. I will be wearing one. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. It's really cool looking and, and chic and sleek. And we have a sweatsuit. Two sweatsuits, same design, but one is a hoodie. One is not.

[Dax Shepard]

And what's on the sweatsuit?

[Monica Padman]

It says ae. It has a crow on top of it and a cherry in its mouth and some cherries falling down the sleeve.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, very cool. I'm going to wear that sweatsuit too.

[Monica Padman]

I know, Me too. I'm really excited for the sweatsuit. I'm going to. I'm going to go crew neck. That's my esthetic. I'm not going to go hoodie, but. Yeah, that's too much.

[Dax Shepard]

You have too much hair for a hoodie. Is that what.

[Monica Padman]

Maybe that's part of it. It gets caught up in there.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Although apparently hoodies are the most selling item.

[Dax Shepard]

I love a hoodie, but I don't have long hair.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So just to be clear, we, we have, we have brokered this deal with Amazon, begged them to let us sell our own merch for a month. Our turnaround is really quick. So go on order. There's going to be a little bit of delay, but we have this window to sell for a month, basically, so.

[Monica Padman]

And it's cute. Yeah. So get on that. That's, that's a good fun update.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

And everyone's happy but Cardi, should we give one to my new maybe boyfriend who's married and annul?

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, for sure.

[Monica Padman]

And I wonder what, what do you think? Reverse that. Yeah. But Cookie boy is so fun.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. He had the confidence to. Cookie boy.

[Monica Padman]

Do you think it's, it's.

[Dax Shepard]

I wouldn't wear a cookie boy shirt.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Really?

[Dax Shepard]

No. It sounds to me like I'm advertising, like eating out power bottom like a cake boy.

[Monica Padman]

I would expect you to wear it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I would.

[Monica Padman]

I would have thought you would have worn it.

[Dax Shepard]

Confident man will wear what If. Hold on a second. This isn't fair.

[Monica Padman]

I think it is.

[Dax Shepard]

What about a shirt that says cake boy? That's like. It feels like false advertising. Like I shouldn't wear a shirt that says cake boy.

[Monica Padman]

What is a cookie boy?

[Dax Shepard]

Ask the computer. What? Cake boy?

[Monica Padman]

No, a cookie boy.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't know. I don't know.

[Monica Padman]

It's not what.

[Dax Shepard]

Rob, am I insane? I don't know what cake boy means, but cookie boy. Yeah, I probably wouldn't wear a cookie boy shirt either. Yeah, it's okay.

[Monica Padman]

Well, I thought everyone said we wanted that as a shirt.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, because I want our. We have 70% of the people. Did you find out what cake boy means? Cake boy is someone like light and fluffy. Effeminate, not meaty. Yeah, that's what Urban Dictionary says.

[Monica Padman]

Doesn't mean gay. That could mean baby girl. Yeah, baby girls are.

[Dax Shepard]

It's just always used in reference to gay guys.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

It's saying metrosexual. Okay. Feminine male. Yeah, a feminine male.

[Monica Padman]

A feminine male isn't gay necessarily. Like Timothee Chalamet is not gay. He's dating feminine.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, this is Urban Dictionary. Says a soft, feminine, heterosexual male. And the quote is, Jerome ain't gay. He's a cake boy. Okay, so Jerome's not gay, he's a cake boy.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, okay. Anyway, I.

[Dax Shepard]

Hold on a second. I don't want to be. I don't want there to be any upsetness or hurt feelings about this.

[Monica Padman]

Well, there's not. You invented cookie boy for you.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. This says a cake boy is someone who's confused for being gay, but really straight.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, Okay, I think we have had enough.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you think in general girls want to be described as masculine? No, because that's a one to one. Do boys want to be described as feminine? I think not.

[Monica Padman]

Now I'm like, should we change up the color of the shirt?

[Dax Shepard]

I think it's more the phrase cookie boy than the color.

[Monica Padman]

No, but I'm saying if girls are gonna buy it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I think you just make it straight.

[Monica Padman]

Change it to like pink.

[Dax Shepard]

Listen, don't worry.

[Monica Padman]

Just leave it. Just leave everything.

[Dax Shepard]

Listen.

[Monica Padman]

Oh my God, I hate this new collection.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, no, don't buy it.

[Monica Padman]

Don't buy. I'm just kidding. It's fine. It's great. I'm excited to wear it. I'll wear it. Okay. Anywh. Who. I forgot what we were talking about.

[Dax Shepard]

Let's reset, let's merch. We're having a very good time.

[Monica Padman]

Merch? Yeah, merch is snot all.

[Dax Shepard]

Because this Is this is.

[Monica Padman]

I've been fighting the rain so hard.

[Dax Shepard]

No, Cookie Boy is not anything worth unraveling. Traveling over.

[Monica Padman]

I thought it was cute.

[Dax Shepard]

I think it's great.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. There's a kind of masculine shirt on there, too, that I designed for you.

[Dax Shepard]

It's okay. The vast majority of the people who order our stuff as women. I don't mind at all that we have a shirt that's skewing towards women. I'd probably even wear Cookie Boy on this show.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

On camera. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I think you should wear it on Kimmel. Yeah, do it. Be the man you are. A Cookie Boy.

[Dax Shepard]

Hold on. Hold on a second. Man. I'm a lot of things.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't have to be like. I don't. I can.

[Monica Padman]

You are, though. You're. You're confident.

[Dax Shepard]

But that doesn't mean I have to declare myself a cake boy.

[Monica Padman]

Don't make that the same thing.

[Dax Shepard]

I think they are very similar. A Cookie Boy and a cake boy.

[Monica Padman]

No, I think Cookie Boy. Cookie Boy is. We invented that. That's a boy who loves cookies.

[Dax Shepard]

No, it's a girl who loves cookies. It's you. That's what a Cookie Boy is.

[Monica Padman]

I think Aaron. It started with Aaron or something. I forget how this started.

[Dax Shepard]

You're the original. You're the oc. Original Cookie Boy. Okay. I'm a Lake Boy.

[Monica Padman]

That is not a cool shirt.

[Dax Shepard]

Probably not.

[Monica Padman]

I would be so attracted did to a muscly, tall anesthesiologist. Anesthesiologist wearing a Cookie Boy shirt. That boy is confident and I like it.

[Dax Shepard]

Look, I wear pink and stuff with a lot of confidence. I'm trying to think what boy? Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Anywho, you wore that Gucci that's.

[Dax Shepard]

That's wild. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Flamboyant.

[Dax Shepard]

It's flamboyant, for sure. Absolutely. It's totally flamboyant. And my pink is very feminine.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. And it's funny. You like that. Mixed messages.

[Dax Shepard]

Would I wear a shirt that says Bop bottom I hold. Don't dismiss me so quickly.

[Monica Padman]

Dismissing you. I'm just telling you that's not what Cookie Boy means.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't know that anyone knows what Cookie Boy means.

[Monica Padman]

Including us.

[Dax Shepard]

Including us. Most importantly us. And so I think a lot of people are going to be wondering what that person's declaring about themselves.

[Monica Padman]

And you don't think that about reverse back, which is interesting because that reverse back. Reverse back could easily be gay anal. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I hope you know. I think it's just its proximity to Cake boy.

[Monica Padman]

All right.

[Dax Shepard]

And Cake Boy is just a very known saying.

[Monica Padman]

I. Okay, you.

[Dax Shepard]

I know you.

[Monica Padman]

I didn't know it.

[Dax Shepard]

I didn't know it either. Rob didn't know it either, but the Internet knew it.

[Monica Padman]

I think the millennials don't know it.

[Dax Shepard]

They don't know cake boy.

[Monica Padman]

I guess Gen X will probably not be Gen X Men will probably. Probably not be buying it in Boomers.

[Dax Shepard]

Unless, again, like, if I were a bottom, I would totally wear a shirt that said bottom or power bottom or. Because that's what I am. I can't wear a shirt that says queer on it.

[Monica Padman]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

It would be wrong of me. I'm not queer and I can't claim that.

[Monica Padman]

Correct.

[Dax Shepard]

And now we're just. We're on this continuum. I can't wear a shirt that says queer. I can't wear a shirt that says bottom. I shouldn't wear a shirt that says cake boy.

[Monica Padman]

I think you could. Now, the definition. It doesn't mean. It doesn't mean you're declaring that you're gay when you're not and being a hypocrite. And the other one, what was after queer bottom. You could. And that would be interesting for people.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Because maybe you are a bottom even in your heterosexual sex.

[Dax Shepard]

Meaning Kristin pegs me.

[Monica Padman]

Or you're on your back and she's on top.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't think that would constitute a bottom.

[Monica Padman]

I mean, look, definitions.

[Dax Shepard]

Because the top is often on bottom and the bottom's on top.

[Monica Padman]

The top is writing.

[Dax Shepard]

Bottoms usually receive penetration.

[Monica Padman]

Right, right. In the. In their sexual community.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. They can receive that penetration on top or bottom.

[Monica Padman]

You're still.

[Dax Shepard]

So I'm saying I can't really be a bottom. And Kristen and I's relationship, whether I'm in time and space on top or bottom, it would have to involve some penetration.

[Monica Padman]

He top, you're saying? Yes, physically in.

[Dax Shepard]

In the tops. On bottom.

[Monica Padman]

But he is a bottom because he's getting penetrated.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. So we could do a shirt we all make that explains all this because maybe a lot of people are confused.

[Monica Padman]

No, thanks.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Now we could call it top bottom. And it's a bottom on top.

[Monica Padman]

Well, our. Okay, the look. Not to make this even, even more complicated, but the. The masculine shirt is cherry on top.

[Dax Shepard]

Which kind of looks like a butt.

[Monica Padman]

So it. That also could be seen as sexual.

[Dax Shepard]

Cherry on top sounds good. Sexually, though, I'm just. There's also a cowboy.

[Monica Padman]

Change it to cherry on bottom.

[Dax Shepard]

There's also a cowboy riding a penis.

[Monica Padman]

On one of them. Yeah. Aren't.

[Dax Shepard]

That's straight as Hell, that's straight as hell. A cowboy riding an enormous penis.

[Monica Padman]

Anyone who wants to. Oh, I see. You're making a joke.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm making a joke.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, wow.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm pointing out the hypocrisy I see. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think people who are straight don't want to declare that they're gay. And I think gay people don't want to declare they're straight. And I don't think men who identify as men want to declare they're women.

[Monica Padman]

I don't think anyone needs to declare anything. It's a cutesy shirt with a little mouse on it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, yes, yes, it is. It's a adorable shirt. I really like it.

[Monica Padman]

I think the deeper problem is we've decided that cookie boy means something that it doesn't.

[Dax Shepard]

Again, I blame cake boy. Right?

[Monica Padman]

I mean, I don't. I don't know what to say. A cookie boy has nothing to do with sexual appetite.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, let me ask you this. This is.

[Monica Padman]

It has to do with loving cookies, right?

[Dax Shepard]

So what if I made shirts that said Tim Boy?

[Monica Padman]

Tim boy.

[Dax Shepard]

What do you think of.

[Monica Padman]

Of being honest, a man named Tim?

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay.

[Monica Padman]

What. What does it mean?

[Dax Shepard]

I would think tomboy. Oh, I think, oh, it's some other now version of tomboy. But now we're saying Tim boy.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, no, I'm not thinking that's a Gen X.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, okay.

[Monica Padman]

Gen X is really upset about words. I think. I think millennials aren't thinking like Gen Z and Covid. Covid, Jen, they're definitely not thinking about.

[Dax Shepard]

They have their own acronym now, the.

[Monica Padman]

COVID Gen C. I heard that once, but I think it's called maybe Gen Alpha or something.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, yeah, something like that. Also, my. My beef with gens. Now, I may have already aired this.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

It used to be like Gen x covers from 1968 to 1983 or something. It's like this 20 year window. Window virtually. And there's been seven gens since gen X. It's like you entitled, all you entitled millennials wanted your own generation every four years. I don't even know what I'm saying. Yeah, but yeah, it's this increased uniqueness where they need their own gen every year they were born.

[Monica Padman]

I know, but I actually think theirs makes more sense because millennials have such. Yeah, we have. That's a good argument, my brothers in my gen, that we are not in the same. We shouldn't be in the same. Same gen. You don't think so?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

No.

[Monica Padman]

He grew up with Internet and phones and stuff. I Got one in college or late high school. You know, it's.

[Dax Shepard]

So maybe there's. Maybe. Maybe there's legitimate reason for breaking it up more. Yeah. Because every two years the world's completely different.

[Monica Padman]

I think so.

[Dax Shepard]

All right, well, I'm learning a lot in this episode.

[Monica Padman]

Well, I guess I sort of have an update here. Sort of. Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

This is the matchmaker.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. So I think I dropped. I dropped an album that the matchmaker entered my life again with an option that you. With an option that makes sense, that makes you feel sad about. And we texted. We texted a little bit to make a time, you know, make a date.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. You and the candidate.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Not the matchmaker.

[Monica Padman]

Correct. And so. But it was very. Just like, logistics. There was like one. One cute exchange, and then it was on to logistics.

[Dax Shepard]

Right, right. Well, you guys sound both type A. He's got the funds to get a matchmaker.

[Monica Padman]

I guess so.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

So this was Saturday. And he said, I have a bit. Really busy week. What about next weekend? And I said, yeah, that should work. And he said, you're in blank. Right. Los Feliz. And what if I started getting very protected? And I was like, yeah, and you're on the west side. And then he never responded again.

[Dax Shepard]

He said he was on the west side.

[Monica Padman]

I said, I asked the question and you're on the west side, question mark. And that was Saturday.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

He didn't respond.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my gosh.

[Monica Padman]

And so I was like, he's been killed. Well, no, I was like, what happened? But okay, whatever. Who cares?

[Dax Shepard]

Right?

[Monica Padman]

And then on Friday, he texted six days later. Uhhuh. Six days later.

[Dax Shepard]

Seven days.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, yeah. And he said, hey, sorry, this got away from me. Are you still good for this weekend? And I was like, no, yeah, yeah, good.

[Dax Shepard]

Good for you.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, yeah, okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Absolutely.

[Monica Padman]

I Then I felt like, oh, am I just being like, doing a normal. Like this is an.

[Dax Shepard]

Finding a way.

[Monica Padman]

Finding a way out. I know.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, two things could be happening. Some of it could be that. What I like about no is I'm not going to be playing along with this role as you. As the boss. And you can call me in six days when you remember. So I won't. I won't participate in that.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Go see me for six days. Checking in, going. We still good?

[Monica Padman]

Exactly. It's not for me.

[Dax Shepard]

That's a. I would if a. Let's just say if a woman did that to me.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't even know if I'd respond to the follow up in seven days.

[Monica Padman]

That's interesting.

[Dax Shepard]

But I do like that you said.

[Monica Padman]

No, I said. And I. At first, I was. I was, like, going to be pretty harsh. Yeah. And then I backed off and I just said. What did I say exactly? Let's see what I said.

[Dax Shepard]

You left room for him to apologize.

[Monica Padman]

Kind of. I wanted to see how he would respond. Yeah. Yeah. I said, you're on the west side. He said, hey, sorry, I lost track of this. Yeah, I'm on the west side. A week later.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Are you still good with tomorrow? I said, hey, no problem. I made plans this weekend, but happy to try to schedule something again. And then he said, oh, okay, Bummer. Well, we can try another time. That was it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And I said, yeah, for sure. I said, next week. Nights are pretty open for me other than this. And I didn't hear anything back, so it was interesting because I.

[Dax Shepard]

So, first of all, that was much nicer than I was expecting, and I. Even nicer than I think he deserves.

[Monica Padman]

That's. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I might have been really direct. No, you can't ghost me for six days and then ask, are we still on tomorrow? That's not for me.

[Monica Padman]

That's.

[Dax Shepard]

And then allow him to mount a real apology because he owes you an apology. Not. Hey, I lost track of this.

[Monica Padman]

Right? I agree. I agree. And that was my instinct. But then I thought, well, maybe, whatever. Like, I don't know him.

[Dax Shepard]

Maybe he was in surgery for six days straight.

[Monica Padman]

I was just like, I don't. Maybe I should give it another. Like, offer up some other option.

[Dax Shepard]

But I'm impressed.

[Monica Padman]

Thank you. Well, for me, I kind of thought, oh, this person is used to that being fine.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure. Yeah. That's one. That could also be it. But that would be, like, the least generous version, right?

[Monica Padman]

Well, I think it's kind of generous. It's like, for him, women are happy to just go out with him when he's ready to go out with him. She said, he's really hot and tall. So, like, I don't know.

[Dax Shepard]

All the more reason you gotta say, well, I agree.

[Monica Padman]

Like, good for you if this has worked out for you in the past. But that is not.

[Dax Shepard]

I just want it to be a little more clear than. It's not that you just made plans. I know it's a no, because you can't.

[Monica Padman]

You can't do that.

[Dax Shepard]

You can't go seven days and then check in to see if we're still good for tomorrow.

[Monica Padman]

I know.

[Dax Shepard]

That's not how I operate.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, but then I.

[Dax Shepard]

Not even hurt feelings. Needy.

[Monica Padman]

Just like.

[Dax Shepard]

Like, that's Just.

[Monica Padman]

That's a. I just didn't want to get into that right then it's like, oh, sorry. Or whatever he's got. I don't want to really have that interaction with someone. I don't really know. Although I did. That was my instinct. And I did ask for advice, and I guess it was. I got bad advice.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I don't think there's good or bad. This is a version.

[Monica Padman]

I don't know. But he didn't respond again, so, like, I'm not seeing him, obviously. Um. And. And that's two strikes. That's right.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. With the matchmaker.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

It's hard for me to not. I have to really fight being judgmental of someone that would be using a matchmaker.

[Monica Padman]

Well, I am.

[Dax Shepard]

No. The man.

[Monica Padman]

Well.

[Dax Shepard]

Because. Yeah. Why do I want to be judged? I want to. I want to see. Say, you can't farm out that activity. Like, you can't just pay your way into that. It feels like a call girl service a little bit.

[Monica Padman]

You don't think that about the apps, but I guess you're the one scrolling.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

You guys are just both mutually looking around and hoping to find somebody. I guess. But there's something about farming that out to somebody.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

That feels a little entitled. Like, I'm a busy person and I'm just going to have them go for fine. I like this, this, and this. I'm acknowledging that. I'm trying to fight through that.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Because I think.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm sure there's a lot of versions that are not that.

[Monica Padman]

I don't think it's that dissimilar from telling all your friends, like, hey, I am single and I want you to keep your eye out for me. This is what I like.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. You know what it feels like if you were at the Four Seasons and you called the concierge and said, I need a date tonight.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Like calling the concierge. Concierge to get you a date is a little bit the. When I want to be judgmental of it is what it feels like.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I understand that. I understand.

[Dax Shepard]

And they don't deserve you. Anyone that would call a concierge to get you. Okay. Can I just say that?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

But again, I can imagine Bill Gates, who I worship, going, I need help. I always get help from experts when I don't know what I'm doing, so why wouldn't I go see him? Expert. To help me find love.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

When I paint it that way and I make it a real person.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Then I'm right. I'M sympathetic to it and I'm supportive of it. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare. What's up everybody? It's Jason Kelce and I'm here with my slightly famous little brother, Travis, AKA Big Yeti Kills. Ladies and gentlemen, boys, boys and girls, we're here to bring you a next level entertainment experience with our show New Heights, where the lumbaby reigns supreme. We're covering all the hardest hitting topics in order of importance. UFO sightings, the ideal PB&J combo, and Trav becoming a big time acting star. Big time is a big stretch. We've got can't miss a list interviews though. That's right. And of course, next level, access to life inside the NFL and in the booth. Just because I retired doesn't mean I'm out of the game. Yeah, I mean the, the old dad shoes suggest otherwise, but those are the I'm out the game shoes right there. Listen to watch New Heights wherever you get your podcasts. And if you want to listen to us first without any interruptions and get bonus content, join 13 + in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts or SP.

[Monica Padman]

But I agree with you. I don't think in all these cases, it's not necessarily. I don't know how. I do think a lot of it is like, make this easier for me, but it is hard to date. So I do think, you know, make this easier for me is a, is a real thing to want and pursue. Yeah, I mean, of course my ego also when, when he, even when, when he said I'm busy, I was like, I'm busy too.

[Dax Shepard]

Everyone's busy. Everybody.

[Monica Padman]

You're not the only. And I do think like, I mean, I don't know what he knows about me.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Monica Padman]

If he knows my last name. I don't know if he's, I don't know. It's kind of what you've talked about before. Of. And like the really, really, really gross part of being so insecure but also like knowing your worth or like having like a strong ego too.

[Dax Shepard]

Zero self esteem and megalomaniacal thinking. That's. That's me.

[Monica Padman]

I know, but, and, but I don't, I don't think I'm megalomaniacal about that.

[Dax Shepard]

You're not as extreme on either ends of the spectrum.

[Monica Padman]

Right? Exactly. Yes. But I, I do think there are moments and it, I guess it depends on who I'm interacting with. But, but in this case when he, when he says like I'm, I'm so busy with no other question you know, it's not like I'm so busy. What do you do? What do you. You know, it's just like, this is. This is my life. I'm busy.

[Dax Shepard]

If you can work your way into my life, we've got a deal.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

That's what's being triggered for me.

[Monica Padman]

Yes. And then what happens for me, which is equally gross, is you have to work your way into my life. This is not gonna work because I'm you.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. I think I could create the statement that would perfectly sum you up.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, I'm scared.

[Dax Shepard]

Indulge me.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm very unattractive, and I'm a hell of a catch.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

This is your story about yourself. I think you think you're unattractive, and I think you think you're a hell of a catch, which is the thing we're talking about.

[Monica Padman]

No, I don't think. No.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

I don't think it's. I. I'm not. I don't think I'm unattractive.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, great. That's better than I was expecting you to say. What? Ugly? Is that what you said?

[Monica Padman]

Okay, yes, but I. I do think. I think I'm ugly, but that I. There is something. Overall. Yeah. Overall.

[Dax Shepard]

All right. So now I don't even feel bad. Yours was worse. I'm ugly, but I'm a fucking catch.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I guess. Although when you say it out loud, it's like, no, I'm. If I kind of.

[Dax Shepard]

What mine is. That's what mine's been since I was, like, 15. Like. Yeah. I'm not much to look at, but I'm a fucking catch.

[Monica Padman]

I hate myself. I need to read an upcoming guest book, but I really don't. I don't hate myself. I mean, that's. I don't. I. I. You're a catch, and, you know, I do know it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

If you could get the first end of that thing addressed, you.

[Monica Padman]

I don't know if it would help me to know that, because I think it's. I actually.

[Dax Shepard]

I think it work.

[Monica Padman]

Really?

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. Because you're also right in your honesty that you're also carrying a lot of baggage of. Of. Of insecurity.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I am.

[Dax Shepard]

And you're looking for reasons to save yourself the ambiguous embarrassment of not being chosen.

[Monica Padman]

Yes, I am.

[Dax Shepard]

So that's really happening.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And it's strong. And I think if you felt hot.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And you knew.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

You.

[Dax Shepard]

I mean, you know, you've got a great career, you know, you're super smart. You know, you're personable. You know, you're good in a crowd. Like you know all the other things. You're not, you're not insecure about any of those things.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, that's true.

[Dax Shepard]

So if you just added that I'm hot, I don't think your mind would let you go to a place that you're not going to get picked. Even if something didn't work out, you would go like someone with great self esteem.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

There wasn't a match.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, that's.

[Dax Shepard]

It's not that I wasn't picked or I wasn't good enough. It's like the audition where it's like, yeah, you are a better actor than so and so. But they're Chinese and I need a Chinese guy.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I guess so. I, but I, I wonder if I just had like 100% self esteem. No insecurities. I felt so good.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I don't know that I would ever find some. I mean I already am never finding someone, so I guess what would be the difference?

[Dax Shepard]

But yeah, you're in a zero risk.

[Monica Padman]

I, I guess that's true.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

But I think I would say, and.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't say that to be mean, I say that to be. That's a really good part of your counter narrative CBT training, which is like I, there's, I'm not risking anything. But I think if you had those other components, I think you would. Because there's also this kind of self, self fulfilling prophecy which is like you're not actively going out there and spotting someone and making it happen.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I'm not.

[Dax Shepard]

So you're in the incoming call business. And guess what? You don't love the incoming calls. And then also you didn't select them. And, and there's all. But if you had those other things, it wouldn't be about like who's going to knock on your door one day. You're like, every time you saw someone that interested you at all, you'd be like, oh, I'm to go make that happen right now. What's up? What are you doing? Do you like coffee? Do you like bagels? Here's the things I like and I cook. You would hit them and they, and you would. And if they didn't respond, you wouldn't give a. Because you're like, I'm hot and I got a great career and I'm everything.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, yeah. I don't, I don't do that. I don't know how to do. I don't know what that's like. Yeah, I don't.

[Dax Shepard]

And I Think most people don't.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. And I think.

[Dax Shepard]

I think a lot of people are afraid to go pursue.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Someone they want.

[Monica Padman]

It's scary.

[Dax Shepard]

I think my success in life has solely been as I wasn't afraid or I overcame my fear to go say hi to everyone at the bar that I liked.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I just got in there and these other guys that they probably would have rather been with just never came up and said hi to them and they were stuck with me.

[Monica Padman]

But I'll take worked out.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

But okay, I have a bad question. Do you think. Think my stomach cr. Also this is kind of a ding ding ding. Cuz this is for Allison Conversations, dating, talk, talking. So this is very relevant.

[Dax Shepard]

Actually accidentally.

[Monica Padman]

You do recognize right that like. Or am I wrong? I mean.

[Dax Shepard]

Or am I wrong?

[Monica Padman]

Do you ever get to face our. Not everyone's physically beautiful. Or am I wrong about that?

[Dax Shepard]

I think you're a bit wrong about that. Look, I'm not one that would deny there are things happening on a primitive level, which is like symmetry. These. We know these things are real.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

We know fertility is somehow deduced by looking at like things are happening. I will not be a denier of I. In fact, I find it annoying when people pretend that some people aren't going to 98% of people are going to find Brad Pitt.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

We can acknowledge that that's the truth.

[Monica Padman]

Physically, just by looking. No personality.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Monica Padman]

But Kristen, like I think 100% of people will see just see her face.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. But I can think of and I'm not going to name them out loud because I don't want it to run the risk of sounding mean.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

But there are. I know many women who dec. They were hot as and sexy and they are right. And a lot and they have made it in show business, some of them.

[Monica Padman]

Right. And you don't think.

[Dax Shepard]

And you can do that, but you.

[Monica Padman]

Don'T think on fate. I mean you can do. I mean I think confident but that doesn't do anything to their. Or you. You think it like morphs their face at 100.

[Dax Shepard]

Morphs their face.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Because they're carrying themselves like they're hot.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

You're like they must. They know they're hot.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

You then go what am I missing?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And you go like oh, yeah, her hair is awesome. Yeah. And then that's. Oh, what a smile. Yeah. Look at her eyes are this. And you go like oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. But if they walk in like this, like you're like, oh, God, they're They've been told they're a mess their whole life. This. It does.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

It does.

[Monica Padman]

You're right. But even.

[Dax Shepard]

And, And I, I just know because I, I'm spe. The beneficiary of that. I, that has been my angle.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

For a long, long time. And, and it hasn't worked all the time.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

A lot of girls are like, nobody. You're not. You're presenting yourself as some 10. You're not. That certainly has happened.

[Monica Padman]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. No, it's happened a bunch of times.

[Monica Padman]

Well.

[Dax Shepard]

But it's also worked a bunch.

[Monica Padman]

I think you potentially like, personality more than your average.

[Dax Shepard]

I think you're right. And I think it, weirdly, is a sign of my confidence, which is I don't need a trophy woman. I don't need to be seen with a woman that's hot.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

But I need to be with the coolest woman in the room.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

For sure. So sure there will be men who don't prioritize that. And what a blessing. You've weeded them out.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. But I'm like, there's no one left.

[Dax Shepard]

No, there are a lot of.

[Monica Padman]

I kind of think there's no one left. It's like, like the guys with the, with who, who respect a woman's personality and, like, is attracted to that and, like, that they're, they're taken. Like those people are for women. That is the most attractive thing.

[Dax Shepard]

I think that is overly pessimistic. Okay. Well, there's numerous reasons why great people find themselves. They can go all the time.

[Monica Padman]

Annulment.

[Dax Shepard]

Annulment's one of them. But their partner didn't grow with them.

[Monica Padman]

Right, right.

[Dax Shepard]

You know.

[Monica Padman]

Whoa. Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

We're lost.

[Monica Padman]

We are lost, indeed. Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

But my thing about you shaving your sides has always been about that.

[Monica Padman]

I know, but that. I know, but it's not me.

[Dax Shepard]

You don't know what me like.

[Monica Padman]

Well, no, I can't.

[Dax Shepard]

I can't say. Because you've filled in what that means from something else you've seen.

[Monica Padman]

No, no, I. And then this is the other swing that I'm talking. I know me.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I am not unclear about me. Like, I know who I am, and I like that person. So I am not going to be like, I guess maybe I'll change up this whole me in order to be broadcast track. Exactly. To broadcast or be more, like, overtly really attractive to people. I, I, I'm like, see, I think.

[Dax Shepard]

You were assessing that whole suggestion on aesthetic.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And my story about you is actually, you had been a Chameleon your whole life. And in this show, I had. We have friends who go, oh, my God, I didn't know that side of Monica.

[Monica Padman]

Uhhuh.

[Dax Shepard]

You have become more and more yourself.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, that's true. And just with age.

[Dax Shepard]

And you are unique on a level that shave sides make sense. You're thinking of it in this, like, really ironclad aesthetic and punk rock. But you're missing the point it makes that I'm making, which is.

[Monica Padman]

I know the point you're making, actually.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm one of the most unique people here. I'm one of the most original people here. And I'm different.

[Monica Padman]

I know that.

[Dax Shepard]

And this thing is a visual cue that I am.

[Monica Padman]

I know. I know what you're saying, but. But you might not be hearing what I'm saying, which is. I get that.

[Dax Shepard]

That's not who you are.

[Monica Padman]

I am not someone who. And I like this about me. I am not someone who is like, look at me. I'm so unique. I'm so special for me. I'm like, you get to know me, and you have that. You make your opinion, and hopefully you come to that conclusion. But I am not here to. Yeah. To. To, like, throw that in your face. And I like that about me. I don't. I don't love when people need to do that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. You're like, I want people to find out I have a great body. Literally. Well, that is. And I want people to find out I am, like, this very unique person.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I hope everyone is, like, you know, willing to be presented with one thing and then have to climb through some layers to find out all this stuff.

[Monica Padman]

That's what I'm saying. That's why I'm ugly. Like, if you have to get over the hump of my face.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my God. Then I was warned about this. But here I am.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, let's do it. We have. Yeah, we really do.

[Dax Shepard]

Suzanne's almost here.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, great. We are resuming. We had to break to interview, and I have since been out in the rain. Is it obvious?

[Monica Padman]

I see some spittle.

[Dax Shepard]

I feel something on my forehead.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, yeah, that's true. I put my hair up.

[Dax Shepard]

I would hate for. Well, we were completely in. Oh, geez. That's a real.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Oh, wow.

[Monica Padman]

Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, the listener won't give a fuck.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, so some facts for Allyson.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, great.

[Monica Padman]

I loved this episode. I thought she was really interesting. Just the most basic topic possible. We really do take for granted. I've thought about it a few times in conversation yeah, the thing that stuck.

[Dax Shepard]

With me that I really liked is this, like, fallacy of naturalness that everyone thinks that everything should happen, happen organically or that means it's not a good fit.

[Monica Padman]

Yes, exactly. And even just like, boomerang questions, I've noticed from people, even me, I think about ending on a question, you know, I've just been more aware, which has been interesting.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, I'm such a boomerang questioner. So embarrassing.

[Monica Padman]

Group hierarchies in conversation. That's really fascinating to watch.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I loved it. Okay, I'm going to play a tiny bit of Diet Pepsi, a song by Addison Ray that comes up in the episode.

[Dax Shepard]

She's my kind of gal. Makes me. It makes me rethink.

[Monica Padman]

D. Yeah, you might need to have.

[Dax Shepard]

To weigh her against my affinity for Bill Gates and Diet Coke.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, God, that's a lot to balance.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. You know what I like about that? That she likes that her boyfriend's got a Costco chain on. Oh, that says a lot.

[Monica Padman]

This is like cookie boy.

[Dax Shepard]

This is like, I respect her. She's not like trying to have some dude in Gucci. She's like, her man looks good in this Costco chain. She's like a real chick. I'm going to have a Diet Pepsi. Do you like those things?

[Monica Padman]

Costco chain.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I think that's a cool detail of it.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. I mean.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, go ahead.

[Monica Padman]

No, it's great. But it's exactly what I said about Cookie Bo boy.

[Dax Shepard]

How so? Tell me. Explain the connective tissue confidence. Cookie boy. Yeah, but it's exactly the same.

[Monica Padman]

It's the same. Okay. How many people are mirror twins? About 25 of identical twins are mirror twins.

[Dax Shepard]

That's not good enough.

[Monica Padman]

You wanted 90.

[Dax Shepard]

I gotta stop saying it. I thought the majority of twins did this.

[Monica Padman]

I know, but you can still ask because maybe you'll find one of the twins. 25%.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. One in every four people I ask will say yes.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly. Okay. So we talked about coordination games, game theory for a little bit, which was interesting. And there's some classic ones. Prisoner's Dilemma, which we spoke about the battle of the sexes. Okay, I'm going to read about that for a second.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

The game involves two players, boy and girl deciding either going to a football game or going to an opera for their date, which respectively represent boys and girls preferred activity. That is boy prefers football game and girl prefers opera. This example is a two person, non cooperative, non zero sum. That's called a tnnc.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Game with opposite payoffs or conflicting preferences.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't know why it's zero sum. Because whoever wins is going to win everything and the other person's going to get nothing of what they wanted. That feels like the definition of zero sum. Okay, we'll keep going.

[Monica Padman]

Because there are two numbers. Nash Equilibria. This case is a pure coordination problem with no possibility of refinement or selection. Thus, the two players will try to maximize their own payoff or to sacrifice for the other. And yet non zero sum for you if you lose.

[Dax Shepard]

I guess zero sum is chess. You can't kind of win. You can't win halfway. You either win or you lose.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

Poker. You could come with $200 and leave with 300.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

Other people could also have 400. Some could be down. You know, there's varying degrees of success.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

But this feels like it's all or nothing. It would be zero.

[Monica Padman]

It does feel zero. Saying I see.

[Dax Shepard]

You're either going to get to go see your thing. You want it or you're not. You're going to be stuck at the opera.

[Monica Padman]

Right. Okay. Thus the two players will try to maximize their own payoff or to sacrifice for the other. And yet the strategy without coordination will lead to two outcomes with even worse payoffs for both. If they have disagreed agreement on what to do on their date.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Which is all, they'll have to go to a prison cell or something as the third option. If they don't agree, it's got to be something worse than the football game for her and the opera for him.

[Monica Padman]

That's all it says.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. That's pretty good. I like.

[Monica Padman]

Has a chart and really.

[Dax Shepard]

Get it but really quick. Yes. If there's a third option that they are penalized with for not agreeing, then yes. It's not zero.

[Monica Padman]

Sure. Maybe all of them have that element.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Now there' Matching pennies game.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh.

[Monica Padman]

This game is a two person zero sum game. In order to play this game, both players will each need to be given a fair two sided penny. To start the game, both players will each choose to either flip their penny to heads or tails. This action is to be done in secrecy and there should be no attempt at investigating the choice of the other player.

[Dax Shepard]

Let's keep it honest.

[Monica Padman]

After both players have confirmed their decisions, they will sign simultaneously reveal their choices. This concludes the actions taken by the players to determine the outcome. The win condition for this game is different for both players. For simplicity and explanation, let's denote the players as Player 1 and Player 2. In order for Player 1 to win the faces of the pennies must match. This means they must be head or heads. In order for player two to win. The faces of the pennies must be different.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh no.

[Monica Padman]

The payoff slash prize of this game is receiving the loser's penn your own.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Pennies.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Kind of outdated.

[Monica Padman]

Well, you'd keep playing and playing. Yeah. Looking at this matrix we can conclude a few basic observations. One, for all scenarios there will be a winner and a loser.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Two, this is a zero sum game where the pay out to the winner is equal to the loss of the loser.

[Dax Shepard]

Like it.

[Monica Padman]

Three, There is no pure strategy Nash equilibrium. We didn't. We don't know what that is.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

That would be a third. That has to be a third option. That's less bad than the worst outcome and not as good as the ideal outcome.

[Monica Padman]

Non cooperative games are generally analyzed through the non cooperative game theory framework which attempts to predict players individual strategies and payoffs. And in order to find the Nash equilibria. I love this.

[Dax Shepard]

The wordage.

[Monica Padman]

This is so fancy and hard. I'm gonna. I'm gonna become an expert in game theory.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, I. I hope you do.

[Monica Padman]

I'm not smart enough for that, but I want to be, so maybe I will. Okay. That's that. Kant's dinner party rules Conversations.

[Dax Shepard]

We need to know these if we're gonna host a dinner party.

[Monica Padman]

I know and I want to. Conversation structure. Dinner conversation should have three stages. Narration, argumentation, jesting, light hearted, plays of wit, code of secrecy. Dinner party conversations should not be discussed with anyone outside of the dinner party.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Ooh, purpose.

[Dax Shepard]

The goal of that one's gonna be hard for me. If I hear something great at the dinner party. I. Anonymity of the speaker, but I might want to get the message out.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm going to violate that one.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

I just want you to know up front, not invited.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. Purpose. The goal of Kant's dinner parties was to encourage civility and listening to others. Kant believed that participants would hear each other and feel heard. Other dinner party etiquette tips RSVP Arrive on time. Be respectful of the host, practices, beliefs and environment. That's bad for you. You won't eat the gluten bread.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Be a good conversation.

[Dax Shepard]

And I'm gonna smoke cigarettes.

[Monica Padman]

Be a good conversationalist. Bring a gift or something for the party to enjoy.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay.

[Monica Padman]

Parties should be limited to nine people and no fewer than three to avoid side conversations.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Side conversations. I was just my whole family and there was some side conversing.

[Monica Padman]

There was. And it was driving you a little.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, it's a little.

[Monica Padman]

All right. That's it.

[Dax Shepard]

That was everything.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Wonderful. Love you.

[Dax Shepard]

Love you. Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short [e-mail] survey.