Allison Jones (Award-Winning Casting Director)

Summary

Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Episode Summary: Allison Jones (Award-Winning Casting Director)

In this engaging episode of Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard, host Dax Shepard is joined by Lily Padman and special guest Allison Jones, an award-winning casting director with over four decades of experience in the entertainment industry. The conversation delves deep into Allison's extensive career, her insights into the casting process, memorable anecdotes from casting iconic TV shows, and her perspectives on the evolution of Hollywood casting dynamics.

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1. Introduction to Allison Jones

Allison Jones is celebrated as a "casting extraordinaire," having played a pivotal role in casting for numerous beloved television series such as Veep, The Office, Freaks and Geeks, Curb Your Enthusiasm, and Parks and Recreation. Her impressive resume reflects decades of dedication to discovering and nurturing comedic talent, often being the mastermind behind ensembles that have become household names.

"She's helped numerous, numerous people in their careers." (00:27)

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2. Allison's Early Life and Education

Allison shares her upbringing in Needham, Massachusetts, highlighting a traditional household with five siblings. Her mother was a housewife, and her father worked as an insurance executive. This nurturing yet bustling family environment fostered her early interest in storytelling and performance.

She attended Pomona College after a brief stint at the University of New Hampshire, driven by her fascination with California's vibrant culture depicted on television. Despite not initially intending to enter the entertainment industry, her path took a decisive turn towards casting after her experiences in advertising and a producing fellowship at the American Film Institute (AFI).

"I want to go to school in California because I would watch shows like the Newlywed Game and the Dating Game and Gidget..." (09:02)

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3. Transition into Casting

After earning an MBA from UCLA’s business school, Allison pivoted from advertising in New York City to film school at AFI, where she discovered her passion for casting. Encouraged by a friend, she began reaching out to casting directors, ultimately securing her first role in casting under Judith Weiner at Sunset Gower.

"I thought the casting process was really cool and creative and required a certain level of discernment and taste..." (16:11)

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4. Insights into the Casting Process

Allison provides an in-depth look into the intricacies of casting for television shows. She emphasizes the importance of identifying the right talent and the emotional investment involved in ensuring both the actors and employers are satisfied with the casting decisions. Her fear often centers around not selecting the optimal person for a role.

"My biggest fear is we don't pick the right person." (06:21)

Allison discusses the evolution of casting from the early 1980s to the present, highlighting how technological advancements like email and texting have transformed communication within the industry. However, she notes that the core challenge of finding talented individuals remains unchanged.

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5. Memorable Casting Anecdotes

Allison recounts several memorable moments from her career, including casting legends such as Jim Carrey, Dennis Leary, and Jack Black. She shares how perseverance and keen observation led her to recognize talent that others might have overlooked.

"He [Jim Carrey] was just like, bingo, he's one of them, and knew what he was doing." (25:28)

One standout story involves casting Michael Cera for Freaks and Geeks. Despite exhaustive searches and numerous auditions, Allison identified Cera's unique blend of awkwardness and charm, which perfectly fit the character’s essence.

"Michael Cera came back and read as Seth. And of course, it was apparent he was perfect." (62:18)

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6. The Impact of Streaming and Industry Changes

Allison discusses the significant shifts brought about by streaming platforms, which have exponentially increased the volume of content being produced. This surge has led to a corresponding rise in the number of agents, managers, and casting calls, making the casting landscape more competitive and complex.

"Streaming has started, it's incredibly different. You go to one of these streamers and we become just data entry people." (74:48)

She expresses concern over the "algorithmization" of creativity, arguing that algorithms cannot replicate the nuanced judgment required in casting. Allison believes that while technology aids in the process, the human element remains irreplaceable.

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7. Advice for Actors and Navigating Auditions

Allison offers valuable advice for actors navigating auditions. She stresses the importance of understanding when to improvise and when to stick strictly to the script. Building rapport with casting directors and being authentic are crucial elements she highlights.

"Please ask [if it's okay to improvise]." (54:39)

She cautions against preconceived notions and encourages actors to present their true selves, which can sometimes mean taking creative risks to stand out.

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8. Challenges and Frustrations in Casting

Despite her passion, Allison shares the frustrations inherent in her role, such as navigating bureaucratic hurdles within studios and the lack of recognition casting directors receive for their contributions to successful shows.

"There's so many levels, and it really throws me off my game." (52:53)

She also touches on gender biases in casting, noting that female actors often face additional hurdles in being perceived as "pretty enough" for leading roles.

"We always want to do a good job, but also I really want the people I'm bringing in to do a good job." (06:21)

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9. The Future of Casting and Compensation

Allison advocates for fair compensation and residuals for casting directors, drawing parallels to how directors benefit from ownership stakes in shows. She underscores the importance of recognizing the critical role casting directors play in the success of television and film projects.

"And I wish we did [have residuals]." (76:27)

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10. Conclusion and Reflections

The episode concludes with heartfelt appreciation for Allison's contributions to the industry and her unwavering dedication to casting excellence. Dax Shepard and Lily Padman express their admiration for her work, acknowledging the behind-the-scenes efforts that make beloved shows possible.

"We are super honored that you guys chatted with us." (78:07)

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• "My biggest fear is we don't pick the right person." — Allison Jones (06:21)
• "He was just like, bingo, he's one of them, and knew what he was doing." — Allison Jones (25:28)
• "Streaming has started, it's incredibly different. You go to one of these streamers and we become just data entry people." — Allison Jones (74:48)
• "Please ask [if it's okay to improvise]." — Allison Jones (54:39)
• "There's so many levels, and it really throws me off my game." — Allison Jones (52:53)

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Final Thoughts

This episode offers a rare glimpse into the world of casting through Allison Jones' seasoned perspective. Her stories illuminate the art and science of casting, the evolution of the industry, and the personal dedication required to shape the ensembles that define popular culture. For aspiring actors, industry professionals, and fans alike, Allison's insights provide a deeper appreciation for the intricate processes that bring beloved characters to life.

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Note: Advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content sections from the transcript have been excluded to maintain focus on the substantive discussions and insights shared during the episode.

Transcript

[Dax Shepard]

Wondry subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now. Join Wondry plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert Experts on Expert. I'm Dan Shepard, joined by Lily Padman.

[Monica Padman]

Hi.

[Dax Shepard]

Per your request. You spearheaded this and I'm so grateful you did.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

She was so delightful.

[Monica Padman]

Allison Jones.

[Dax Shepard]

Allison Jones. She comes up a bunch over the years. She's helped numerous, numerous people in their careers.

[Monica Padman]

She's a casting extraordinaire.

[Dax Shepard]

Yep. She's an award winning casting director. Just, you know, a few of her impossibly long resume. Barbie Veep, the Office, Freaks and Geeks, Curb youb Enthusiasm, Parks and Rec does all Mike stuff. Basically any impossibly great comedic ensemble where you're like, where did they find all these geniuses? It's almost always going to be Alison Jones.

[Monica Padman]

It is. It's. Her track record is so insane and it goes so far back. I didn't realize that it was fun to learn about like the Golden Girls. Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Really, really cool. And then just a sweetheart.

[Monica Padman]

Love her.

[Dax Shepard]

So please enjoy Allison Jones. We are supported by the thrilling Apple TV legal drama Presumed Innocent from the masters of brilliant character driven storytelling, David e. Kelly and J.J. abrams. Have you seen this series yet? It's about a horrific murder investigation that upends the Chicago prosecuting attorney's office when one of its own, Chief deputy prosecutor Rusty Savage, played by Jake Gyllenhaal, ding, ding, ding. Friend of the pod is suspected of the crime. There are so many twists and turns that will keep you on the edge of your seat right until the very end. Which is probably why Variety rave that it was one of the best legal thrillers in years. If I were you, I'd stream it on Apple tv. Plus, the second this podcast finishes, we are supported by Audible. Audible's best of 2024 picks are here. Audible's curated list in every category is the best way to hear 2024's best in audio entertainment. Like a stunning new full cast production of George Orwell's 1984. This is the one I am most excited to indulge myself with.

[Monica Padman]

I'm so excited to listen to James, which is a new title by Percival effort that is very, very hot right now.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, there's so many good ones on the list.

[Monica Padman]

We love Audible. This is how you go to bed.

[Dax Shepard]

I love Audible. I swear by Audible. I can't wait to listen to the Orwell 1984 off this list. I'm also doing fleas by autobiography right now, which I'm obsessed with. I can't get enough audible in my life every night. Go to audible.comdax and discover all the year's bests waiting for you. That's audible.com Dax. He's an option expert. He's an option expert.

[Monica Padman]

He's an obsesser.

[Dax Shepard]

Many, many people that you would think wouldn't be nervous are Bill Lawrence who is just here. He's done a million and a half interviews. Very gregarious guy.

[Allison Jones]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

You would not think he would be nervous.

[Allison Jones]

No, I would not. And I'm working with him now.

[Dax Shepard]

Are you?

[Allison Jones]

First time I met him.

[Dax Shepard]

For Bad Monkey.

[Allison Jones]

No. New Steve Carell show.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay.

[Allison Jones]

Look at you already.

[Monica Padman]

I'm already in. It's already tasty.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, well, I don't want you to be nervous.

[Allison Jones]

Who knew this one was. I did not.

[Dax Shepard]

I did that.

[Monica Padman]

I was feisty.

[Dax Shepard]

Uh huh. Yeah. I had the original eye for Monica. I was the casting director for Monica.

[Allison Jones]

You were?

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Allison Jones]

Okay. But you first worked for Kristen or did Dax find you for that?

[Monica Padman]

Well, no, sorry. I first worked for them as a nanny. So I worked for both of them originally.

[Allison Jones]

Maybe I did know that a while.

[Dax Shepard]

Ago and she was in our friendship group, but kind of a new periphery. Yeah. And I said, that gal's really smart. Like she's a very smart, interesting person. Every time I talk to her, we argue and she's a worthy adversary. Then she started babysitting and then full time nanny, then started working with Kristen, then became Kristen's writer, producer, everything.

[Allison Jones]

It was before Good Place.

[Dax Shepard]

No, cause House of Lies.

[Allison Jones]

It was before.

[Monica Padman]

Cause House of Lies, as House of Lies was ending, kind of is when I started taking on more stuff.

[Dax Shepard]

Suffice to say, Kristen was entirely dependent on Monica to a degree you can't imagine. And then we started this and then it was accidentally very successful. And then I had to say, I'm gonna have to steal her full time. And she of course was generous.

[Allison Jones]

But to be like an on mic person, an on camera person, I asked him if the audio could be broken today. But the fact that you film this is scary.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

The camera stuff is new for all of us actually here. But you forget, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

The first two episodes we were a little. Bill was one of the early ones. He might have even been the one that kind of broke it where I was like, okay, I'm comfortable here. I like this. I can pretend this is my living room. But Allison, this is a great first Question. So you have spent the last, I don't know how many years since 82 are we starting? Oh, yeah, we're always.

[Monica Padman]

We call it abr.

[Allison Jones]

Always. Let me get this coffee. Okay. Oh, God. Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. This is wonderful. You spent from 82 to 20. 24. So that's 42 years of watching humans walk into a room with a ton of anxiety. Maybe the peak anxiety they'll have.

[Allison Jones]

83. Thank you.

[Dax Shepard]

83. Okay. Okay.

[Allison Jones]

And less year than that wasn't Family Ties 82, but I came in season two.

[Dax Shepard]

That makes sense. 41 years.

[Allison Jones]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Of watching people come in nervous. And I guess maybe the layperson would assume that would inoculate you to nervousness. Like you would somehow know the higher.

[Allison Jones]

Up the food chain you go. In terms of auditioning. I get as nervous as the actor does. And when it's like a final audition, you'll hear my voice quiver like you hear it quivering now.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, really?

[Allison Jones]

Oh, gosh.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, just. Cause you care, obviously.

[Allison Jones]

Probably. And I want to get the job done too, and I want them to do a good job.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. What percentage of that nervousness for you when you've gotten to that last layer of the audition process?

[Allison Jones]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Is you rooting for someone that you are championing versus I really want the people that employed me to be very happy with where we've gotten.

[Allison Jones]

That's a good question. I would say that we always want to do a good job, but also I really want the people I'm bringing in to do a good job. And that we pick the right person. Yes. My biggest fear is we don't pick the right person. That's a common casting director fear, was that they're going to pick the boner in the group or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I have a million questions about exactly that coming later. But I want to start in Massachusetts. Have a hard time saying it, but you grew up in a Boston suburb.

[Allison Jones]

I did. Needham, Massachusetts.

[Dax Shepard]

And what did mom and dad do?

[Allison Jones]

Mom was a housewife, which is what women were want to do back then. And my father was an insurance executive. Very nice childhood. Kind of predictable.

[Dax Shepard]

A Norman Rockwell painting. Not that.

[Allison Jones]

Wouldn't go that far.

[Monica Padman]

That's not real for anyone.

[Allison Jones]

No. That would have been a few of the neighboring towns like Wellesley, but a lovely town. And my best friends are still my high school friends.

[Dax Shepard]

And do you have siblings? Oh, no, I know this. You're the second youngest of six.

[Allison Jones]

I am. I have five siblings.

[Dax Shepard]

Boys, girls?

[Allison Jones]

Three boys, three girls.

[Dax Shepard]

How wonderful of your mother to nail it like that. The ratio.

[Allison Jones]

She would let us know that was it.

[Dax Shepard]

Every other one?

[Allison Jones]

No. Two boys, two girls, me and then my younger brother.

[Dax Shepard]

Was it just chaos in a very fun way?

[Allison Jones]

You're such an optimist. Yes, it was chaos in a fun way. Mostly, yes. When I was growing up in the 60s and 70s, Boston, Mass. Was filled with huge families. Irish Catholic families, Italian families. Six was very common.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wow.

[Allison Jones]

Yeah. What about you guys? Can I ask you?

[Dax Shepard]

I'm one of three. You're allowed to ask as many questions.

[Allison Jones]

As you like, Monica.

[Dax Shepard]

Two.

[Monica Padman]

Me and my brother. He's eight years younger than me, though. So they both have. Yeah, exactly.

[Allison Jones]

Two would have been controversial. Where I grew up, it was like, two. What happened?

[Dax Shepard]

She must have some kind of what's going on?

[Monica Padman]

And it definitely would have been her.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Of course. All men are virile.

[Monica Padman]

Definitely has some sense.

[Dax Shepard]

Very potent.

[Allison Jones]

Most of my friends from high school came from very large families and we would have synchronized brothers and sister ages. My younger brother was best friends with my best friend's younger brother.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Allison Jones]

We can still talk about antics and all that kind of stuff back from the early days.

[Dax Shepard]

Dating older siblings, friends, was that ever an issue that popped up?

[Allison Jones]

I would have been terrified.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, me too.

[Allison Jones]

I can say I may have wanted to.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, sure.

[Allison Jones]

But the more interesting thing was my two older brothers possibly going after the same, like, high school cheerleader.

[Dax Shepard]

Were they Irish twins?

[Allison Jones]

They were, in fact. And my younger brother and I, very close in age, 13 months.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. What's the age gap between the oldest and the youngest?

[Allison Jones]

The oldest and the youngest would be about 11 years, I think. My mother had three kids, took a little break and then another three years.

[Dax Shepard]

You took like, a season, maybe?

[Allison Jones]

I think so. A hiatus?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Did you have fantasies about show business as a kid or how did this all come to be? No. How did you end up at Pomona College?

[Allison Jones]

Well, I applied to a lot of fancy colleges and didn't get in. I wanted to go to school in California because I would watch shows like the Newlywed Game and the Dating Game and Gidget, which was like, oh, my God, that girl gets to surf after school. I can't believe it. So in the 60s and 70s, everything was happening in California.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Allison Jones]

It was like big surf, serial killing.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Allison Jones]

Free love. Everything was happening in California. So I was like, I gotta go.

[Dax Shepard]

That's where it's at.

[Allison Jones]

And also, in those days, you didn't do the regimented thing of visiting colleges and spending a fortune on SATs and on applications. I just said, I gotta go to California. It's super cool out there. So my parents wouldn't let. So I went to University of New Hampshire for a year and then transferred to Pomona College. Somehow they magically let me go. When I think back on it, it could have been. It probably fit their budget better to wait a year. Sure. And then I could go to California. But I had never been to California at all.

[Dax Shepard]

You just had seen it on tv.

[Allison Jones]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

Did you love tv?

[Allison Jones]

God, yes.

[Dax Shepard]

I didn't have access to it unless I was at my dad's every other weekend or whatever. Once a month. Cause we lived kind of out in the sticks. We didn't have a good antenna. I had to go to a friend's house if I wanted to watch Dukes of Hazzard. But when I was at my dad's, my brother and I, all from the second we got up until three in the morning.

[Allison Jones]

And where was that?

[Dax Shepard]

Detroit.

[Allison Jones]

Oh, Detroit, okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah. In Atlanta, the suburbs.

[Allison Jones]

I was the early TV generation.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, for sure.

[Monica Padman]

For me, tv, I was obsessed. And now when it's like screen time, that was not a thing. My parents were like, you can watch as much tv.

[Allison Jones]

Oh, no. We were plopped in front of the new color tv. We would have called it. Oh, no. We were TV kids. What else are you gonna do with six ungrateful children? And no nannies. In those days, nannies know, unless you're a Kennedy or something. But no nannies.

[Monica Padman]

TV were the babysitters. But for me, it was such a fantasy world. Like I could go in and I could pretend I was in Full House and the whole thing. Did you have that with tv? Like you were using it as an escape or. Not really.

[Dax Shepard]

It was so new.

[Allison Jones]

I don't know, I just loved it. Movies were not cinema the way it is now either. My parents would bring us to movies. My father brought us to every Peter Sellers movie and Walter Matthau, Jack Lemmon movie that came out. To whom I owe my appreciation of that kind of humor. But I don't know, I never broke it down, but I would say, yes, definitely, and probably still the reason. And also I love, you know, we would beg to stay up to see Johnny Carson's monologue. We'd begin the monologue. Can we see the monologue?

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so when you get to Pomona, is this true that at Pomona you find kind of a comedy geek culture?

[Allison Jones]

They weren't self aware of being a comedy geek culture there probably is now that sort of didn't exist at all. They just happened to be the pure, unadulterated, brilliant science major, pre med major, law major, geeks who loved Monty Python and who loved fireside theater. And it was like, what are they talking about? But those are the first people I met that I was really tuned into that comedy. They were beautiful, smart, probably at the time, highly unpopular geeks. Now they've come to the fore.

[Dax Shepard]

Now they run the world.

[Allison Jones]

Now they run the world.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Remember, Revenge of the Nerds was like this preposterous scenario where the nerds would defeat the jocks. And now the world is.

[Allison Jones]

And even then that was like, oh, it was preposterous. You know, Jamie Cromwell laughing.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Allison Jones]

You know, and Anthony Edwards. That was the first turning point of making geeks in the title of anything.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. So you had a visual arts major there and what was your goal with that?

[Allison Jones]

Didn't really have one. I just liked it. After Pomona, I worked night shift at a newspaper in Glendora for a year.

[Dax Shepard]

You're inching your way towards la.

[Allison Jones]

I'm inching my way, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

For people that know, Pomona's like 60 miles out and Glendora is like 35 miles out.

[Allison Jones]

And then I went to UCLA business school mostly because my father was a businessman and I thought, I think I can get a good salary after I go to business school. I truly was clueless in those days. We did not put the pressure on ourselves that these poor kids do now.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Allison Jones]

I don't have a goal now. I mean, I certainly didn't have a goal then.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. So you leave there. How on earth do you end up at Family Ties as a casting director?

[Allison Jones]

Well, I have a very good friend named Lydia Woodward from business school. A little core of us were just so not meant to be in the business world. I think we're all there for the same reason. Just to get a job, buy some.

[Dax Shepard]

Time and get a job.

[Allison Jones]

Buy some time and get a job. Yeah. I was living in California at the time, and I think I only paid 7:50 a trimester to go to UCLA business school as a resident. What a bargain. I got my MBA for two years for like three grand.

[Monica Padman]

Wow, that is incredible.

[Dax Shepard]

I totally think that's true because even when I graduated in 2000, all in was 3,800 bucks a year.

[Allison Jones]

It was amazing. Anyway, so I get out of business school and a friend of mine, Lydia, was going right into film school at AFI as a producing fellow is what we called it then. And I was working in advertising in New York City at the time. My year, right after Business school. I went to work on Madison Avenue in New York City for an agency called Doyle Dane Birnbach, which was mentioned in Mad Men quite a bit. That's why I love Mad Men so much. I was the tail end of when Mad Men would have ended or maybe a few years after.

[Dax Shepard]

People were still smoking and drinking all.

[Allison Jones]

Day long and they had so much makeup and high heels. It was my first time ever spending much time in New York City. I was not cut out for advertising either. But my friend said, alison, you should come to afi. It is up your alley. You can get a loan for a low rate. So I did in the producing section. Again, no goals. Just said, no, that'd be fun. I think I'll do it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

You're just following the next thing in front of you.

[Allison Jones]

And so I went to afi. Loved it. I've never met people like that before in my life. You're ending up with, oh, that person's uncle is somebody famous in that. Anyway. Yeah, in the student films. I enjoyed the casting part of it. And again, the same friend, Lydia, said, I think you can get a job in casting. I was like, no way. That's a real job.

[Dax Shepard]

Friend is like your guidance counselor.

[Allison Jones]

She is my guidance counselor. She's a great friend. She's a very successful writer, producer. But yeah, we hit it off because we both flunked one of our tests together and we were singled out.

[Monica Padman]

It's a bonding.

[Allison Jones]

It was a total bonding thing.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, it's like friendships forged in war.

[Allison Jones]

Yeah, totally.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you remember what about the casting process interested you?

[Allison Jones]

I just dug it. We were casting a student film in those days. AFI had sort of a little SAG connection, but not really. We're talking 1982 or 81. You really had to pester people to get anything done in those days. There was no email, as you know. It was just calling people up and getting hung up on that kind of thing. But every time I watched a TV show, like, I would see somebody on Marcus, well, bmd. And then I'd see her in a spearmint gum commercial. It's like, oh, she's doing a commercial. How does that work? I didn't know what casting was as a kid. Nothing.

[Dax Shepard]

That's why I think this episode will be so fascinating. Because you just are presented with this show. You're very far removed from Hollywood. In the best case scenario. You're just buying into the notion these are real kids in high school in Beverly Hills 90210. You're not even considering oh, that's an actor.

[Allison Jones]

No, no, no, no.

[Dax Shepard]

The notion that there's a whole rung of this industry that's in charge of scouting, finding, and getting those people in.

[Monica Padman]

Hugely important, especially for the talent. You don't really realize that until you come here and you're like, oh, wow, casting directors. And casting is a huge component of this.

[Dax Shepard]

The first big gate that's being cast.

[Allison Jones]

You guys appreciate that, but not many other people.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, right.

[Allison Jones]

Or even know it.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, they don't know.

[Allison Jones]

Yeah. But anyway, I thought the casting process was really cool and creative and required a certain level of discernment and taste and realizing, wow, one actor can completely change a student film versus another actor. I went to Larry Edmonds or something and got a little catalog of casting directors and producers, and I started typing my letters to casting directors, and I think I sent out. Like, you had to put a stamp on the envelope. No. And then I think I got two answers, and one woman hired me. Judith Weiner.

[Dax Shepard]

She was the casting director for Family Ties.

[Allison Jones]

Yes, she was. And that was at Sunset Gower. And I remember walking in on the Gower entrance on Sunset Gower and looking to my left, and there was the Hollywood sign. So it was like, wow, this is cool. Again, goalless. But just like, this is bitchin'yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Allison Jones]

A word I never heard till I moved to California.

[Dax Shepard]

Made very popular in fast times at Ridgemont High.

[Allison Jones]

Yes, exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. So you start working on that show, and I imagine you're doing a lot of the work that's not picking the.

[Allison Jones]

First thing you do as a casting assistant. Back then, it was answering the phones. And my first office job was with Judith, and we shared an office with the late Tim Flack, who was the casting director, and they were doing the pilot of the Cosby Show.

[Dax Shepard]

Wow.

[Allison Jones]

And we were working on a show called Benson all at Sunset Gower, which was an amazing old historic studio to work at, because even today it looks the same as it did probably in 1925, literally inside. If you've ever shot anything at Sunset Gower, looks like you're in the 1920s. The old school payroll windows and stuff. That's really, really cool. And they shot some magnificent old movies there, including the Three Stooges, which was my big comedy influence. Growing up as a kid with a bunch of brothers, we hit each other all the time. And it was all because of the physical. Physical. We were joking and not joking.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I think it led to a lot of trips to the emergency room, that show.

[Allison Jones]

Yeah, I know.

[Dax Shepard]

My Brother. And I would try that, like. Cause you'd go like this. And the defense was this. But I was five years younger, so his fingers were longer than this.

[Allison Jones]

Yeah, but that was what we worshiped.

[Dax Shepard]

And people are calling, I'm sure, and they're pitching people.

[Allison Jones]

Those days, I was learning how to put people on hold and say, hold, please, and get back to someone. And my boss would say, don't keep anybody on hold for more than two seconds. So I'd be going back and forth.

[Dax Shepard]

Hold, please, two seconds.

[Allison Jones]

Hold, please. Hold, please. It was like, oh, my God, there's a big agent on the phone. What do I say to a big agent? So it was a lot of answering phones. It was nowhere near as hectic as it is now.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, it's gotten more hectic, Much more hectic.

[Allison Jones]

Oh, you have tenfold more agents, managers, representatives calling you all the time. So much so that you can't get your job done. So we've had to pretty much switch to email and texting.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Allison Jones]

But back then, in the early 80s, we were working on a show called Benson. Tim was doing the pilot for the Cosby show, and we were doing a show called Condo and a pilot. So there was a lot of casting sessions to set up. And in those days, you had call the agent, talk to the agent's assistant, give the time, the place, leave the sides at the Gower Gate for the actors to come pick up. In the days there was no fax.

[Dax Shepard]

Sides are the lines for people who don't know. So those are the lines for the audition.

[Allison Jones]

I assume they occurred called sides because it's two sides of a playbill or something. I never figured that out.

[Monica Padman]

We'll find out for the fact check.

[Allison Jones]

I think it has to do with one side, two sides of something interesting.

[Dax Shepard]

Now, this huge explosion in the amount of managers and agents and whatnot, is it proportional to. Because when you were on Benson, you're casting the Cosby show, there's only three networks. The three networks only have five days of airing and four shows. So you're talking 20, maybe 60 shows are on television, and now we're at, I don't know, hundreds of shows. So do you think it's proportional or.

[Allison Jones]

Something else happened that happened way before we came into streaming?

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Allison Jones]

I mean, managers started getting busy on us about 25 years ago. I think actors, for some reason, they decided they needed an attorney, they needed a manager, they needed an agent as well. And so I remember sometime in the 90s, when suddenly the breakdowns, which is a service that Sends to agents the parts that we're casting and then they submit headshots.

[Dax Shepard]

I mean an 18 to 24 year old female.

[Allison Jones]

And that is how they disseminated the casting calls basically for every new project that came along. It was Breakdown. There's kind of a monopoly on that one company. Suddenly, for some reason, I remember the first manager I ever heard of was Keith Addis who represented Sting. He never would bother any of us, but it was like, oh, what does a manager do? Anyway, so then for some reason there was just like an onslaught of managers who started to call us. You'd have an agent calling about the same client that a manager would call about.

[Monica Padman]

What are they saying? Like, hey, you should really think about my client. And you're like, yes or no? And they call back and say, actually.

[Allison Jones]

You really should all the time. And then the manager would call and say, this is the person.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so when you were at Family Ties, I'm going to ask you some juicy questions, please. Famously, Leonardo DiCaprio was on family Ties, right?

[Allison Jones]

No, he was on Growing Pain, Growing Pains.

[Dax Shepard]

I that up.

[Monica Padman]

That's sad. You wanted to ask about an early Leonardo DiCaprio.

[Allison Jones]

Yeah, I want to know how young River Phoenix was.

[Dax Shepard]

He was on Family Ties. Maybe that's who I'm thinking of.

[Allison Jones]

And Tom Hanks.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, and Tom Hanks.

[Dax Shepard]

And Tom Hanks.

[Allison Jones]

Yep.

[Dax Shepard]

And you already had Michael J. Fox.

[Allison Jones]

And this was all my boss, Judith Weiner and her associate at the time, Donald, who's now a big producer.

[Dax Shepard]

My favorite person in show business. He produced without a paddle.

[Allison Jones]

Oh, he did the.

[Dax Shepard]

What a gentleman.

[Allison Jones]

He's hilarious. And was just as funny then.

[Dax Shepard]

Wait, the line did the pilot of Family Tie.

[Allison Jones]

He was the associate at the time.

[Dax Shepard]

Really?

[Allison Jones]

I think he was the one who probably turned Judith onto Justine Bateman as being a good one in the group. Cause sometimes associates would pre read the people, which doesn't so much exist anymore now you'd call it self tape as a pre read.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I got a question about that.

[Allison Jones]

Anyway, many, many young people came through the Family Ties coffers. Joseph Gordon Levitt, I think as a seven year old played a bu. Do you guys even know Family Ties?

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, I grew up watching Family Ties.

[Allison Jones]

You didn't. Reruns, I assume. I don't think you can get it anywhere now. And it's a show that would catch on because of the conservative liberal thing.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, it would. Because Alex B. Keaton was a conservative and the dad was liberal. Whole family was liberal.

[Monica Padman]

It was great.

[Allison Jones]

And it was Gary David Goldberg's family story. Basically, he was liberal and a hippie, and his kids were conservative. Ah, I believe so.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, that is very interesting. Yeah. No, that was 82 to 87. No, 89. So I was 7 till 12.

[Allison Jones]

So you loved Alex P. Keaton.

[Dax Shepard]

I liked Justine Bateman. I liked Alex P. Keaton. Then he was in Back to the Future, who was skipping Mark Price. Yes.

[Allison Jones]

Literally the definition of the goofy friend next door.

[Dax Shepard]

A few years later, you're on Golden Girls.

[Allison Jones]

Yes, With Judith. We did the pilot.

[Dax Shepard]

You would be privy to one of the great kind of funny debates now that happens with the Golden Girls. A. The Golden Girls is this enormous thing. Right. Like it's had all these different lives, which is great. And I watched it as a kid, but again, I was 7 to 12. They look like grandmas to me now that I'm 50 or closing in on it. Everyone points out some of the cast members were in their 40s or 50s.

[Allison Jones]

Estelle definitely made herself look like an old granny.

[Dax Shepard]

So what was the conversation behind closed doors about what age you were going to cast as these grandmothers?

[Allison Jones]

It was not even discussed. The women that were considered were all probably in those days, considered elderly, and they were in their 50s.

[Monica Padman]

It's the reality of the times. It's not like anyone was.

[Allison Jones]

No, it's the reality of the times. Yeah. You still see that from time to time, though. But then it was not even a question. There was just people in their 50s were gonna be the elderly people. But Estelle came in to audition for something on Family Ties. I keep everything in my storage units. And I went back to see the way we got to Estelle, and she had auditioned for something on Family Ties. I saw the producer session, which I typed on a selective typewriter, and then you make copies of it and then you pass it out. She had come in for a part that she did not get. But then about a week later, Judith brought her in for Golden Girls just to pre read her. We didn't tape or anything. We had to bring them back in person. For all the producers, Tony Thomas and Paul Witt. Susan Harris didn't come to the sessions.

[Dax Shepard]

Sam Harris, mother.

[Monica Padman]

That's right.

[Allison Jones]

Wait a minute. Oh, Sam. I'm sorry. What does he say?

[Dax Shepard]

Sam Harris has a.

[Allison Jones]

Other than the comic who's not that Sam Harris.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. He became a neurologist. He has a huge podcast. But he is also famously on Bill Maher all the time arguing. He got into hot water, arguing Ben Affleck about Islam. He is a very outspoken, provocative intellectual.

[Monica Padman]

Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

Most people go the other way. By the way, most people know Sam, and I'll say his mother invented Golden Girl.

[Allison Jones]

I think the reason she got into writing was cause she had to support Sam. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Single mother.

[Allison Jones]

Yeah. She said, I can do that stuff. And she wrote a spec script for one of their shows at the time. And then she just got huge. She created Soap and she was very, very important person. Not just female, very important person in comedy.

[Dax Shepard]

A titan.

[Allison Jones]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And that kind of.

[Allison Jones]

And then she and Paul Witt made the greatest comedy in the 80s and 90s. And they had the third floor on Sunset Gower.

[Dax Shepard]

So by the time we get to 1990, I guess I'm wondering. So you already pointed out something that happens, which is fascinating. You come in for one thing, you're not right for it. And that's its own thing that actors need to understand all the time.

[Allison Jones]

It's almost the rule, not the exception.

[Dax Shepard]

It took me directing things and casting people to really fundamentally understand what's going on in the room. I wish I would have started directing because it would have taken so much of the pressure off of auditioning, which is like, you're kind of right or you're wrong. You have some range of talent.

[Allison Jones]

But.

[Dax Shepard]

But what can happen, which is encouraging, is you as a casting director go like, well, they're terrible for this role, but they're good. I want to keep a mental note of that.

[Allison Jones]

Oh, we're keeping that in our heads.

[Dax Shepard]

You start in 83, and by the time we get to Fresh Prince, you had seven years of kind of accumulating people that you've liked, seeing every movie.

[Allison Jones]

And every TV show and memorizing every actor. Anytime I'd go to a movie, this was before Internet movie Database. I have a ton of little notebooks. Stay at the end, and I write down all the casts. I noted, like Roseanne Barr. Her first bit was on Johnny Carson. And I wrote Roseanne Carr. And then I wrote Riding Vacuum Cleaner. That was her bit. So I remember her bit was Riding Vacuum Cleaner. And then I ended up seeing her at the Comedy Store. Anyway, everything was handwritten those days, so I had tons of writing down. Everybody. Ellen De Something. I didn't think I could spell her name, but I wrote it down.

[Dax Shepard]

DeGeneres.

[Allison Jones]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, this is so funny.

[Allison Jones]

Yeah. So I have all kinds of little notebooks and you don't have a computer.

[Dax Shepard]

So it's not like you can put all this in a spreadsheet and break it into catego. So anytime you have a new project on Your hands. And you've got 13 roles to cast. How do you keep track of this huge handwritten stack of paper?

[Allison Jones]

I would say that most of the folks I started out with, Sally Steiner and Meg Lieberman and Donald, who started in casting, we just had scraps of paper everywhere. Later I would get Time Out New York when that started and I would rip things out about the comedy people that they would talk about. That's how I remembered people like Rory Scoville and Ben Schwartz. I still have their little things ripped out of them. Time Out New York.

[Monica Padman]

Some of these things like I think should be in the Smithsonian.

[Allison Jones]

Oh God, I don't know. They're all in my storage unit.

[Monica Padman]

That's fantastic.

[Dax Shepard]

I think the Smithsonian has a whole TV thing to it.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, they have Archie Bunker's chair.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, right then they definitely do.

[Allison Jones]

But it was all scrap paper. Our walls were covered with little thumbtacks with somebody's name.

[Dax Shepard]

Names.

[Allison Jones]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Every time you're watching something, you're on the lookout for someone that's talented. Does that ruin scene stuff? Are you too preoccupied?

[Allison Jones]

No, it doesn't ruin it for me. Cause I still love it. But at those days you had to stay. Sometimes I'd have to see a movie twice because you can't go to IMDb and I'd have to look at the.

[Dax Shepard]

And it's going fast.

[Allison Jones]

Yes, and it's going fast. And that was really cool.

[Dax Shepard]

And the lights might not even be on yet.

[Allison Jones]

Yes, exactly. So I would have to go sometimes twice. And there's many people who I would bring in the next week and they got a part.

[Dax Shepard]

Wow. Wow. Okay, so that's one approach is you're paying attention to who's in what. Are you also going to comedy clubs?

[Allison Jones]

No, all the time. That was then. You had to do it on your feet. You had to go into the Comedy Store. When I was working for Judith, she let me do some sort of new, which never really aired, late night comedy show that NBC wanted to put on adjacent or after SNL at the time talking 1980s. That was my first flat out comedy thing. I had to learn comics. Like I learned my multiplication tables in the 60s.

[Monica Padman]

Wow. Yeah.

[Allison Jones]

I went to the Comedy Store on improv every single night for weeks. I'd park up above the Comedy Store. I never went to the main room because those were the acts that everybody knew, Robin Williams. But I would go to the back room and sit there from like 8:00 to 2 in the morning. And I would see always like a 19 year old, 20 year old Jim Carrey. It was the same lineup. Half the time I went there, it was like Jim Carrey. And then it was Jeff Altman, Damon Wayans, who was very young at the time, as I recall. I just sat in the back. I had to have a two drink minimum. No comps back then. And I was just a casting assistant. So I would sit there and I would sit until the end. And usually I think it was Sunday night. I forget when Sam Kinison would come on at two in the morning and be screaming. And then I would. I would leave and go home and do it the next night. I just made a point to do it solid for like two or three weeks so I could learn comics. You had to do the legwork then. And I have very fond memories of.

[Monica Padman]

That kind of stuff.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so it's positive because for every Jim Carrey, you're also wading through two or three that are pretty rough and people are bombing. Some people are thinking, like, oh, I'd go to a comedy show every night.

[Monica Padman]

No, they're fine.

[Dax Shepard]

It's a little rough.

[Allison Jones]

And that was the days preceding you. Maybe not where. Where the goal of a comic was to get a deal at a network.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Allison Jones]

First of all, to get a spot on Johnny Carson.

[Dax Shepard]

Yep. So.

[Allison Jones]

And to get called to sit on the couch. Second of all, I remember we would also go back and sort of go to the ladies room. And then the comics were always out back in the hallway smoking and talking about their sets. And God bless the comics, but they're insecure. And these are now the biggest comics in the world.

[Dax Shepard]

They're pretty mean too.

[Allison Jones]

The Marc Maron and the biggest standups in the world were all back there at the age of 21.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Allison Jones]

Yeah. Gossipy and mean.

[Dax Shepard]

Insecure and scary.

[Monica Padman]

It is.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Base, sad.

[Allison Jones]

Very few females. They even had just a female knight. That was all you had for the female comics? I think it was the belly room. I remember when Whoopi Goldberg first came, it was like, oh, my God. Remember Donald De Lyne telling me there is this comic, this female, who is unbelievable. You should go see her. Her name is Whoopi Goldberg. And it was. Okay, Whoopi. Whoopi, okay. Yeah, yeah, Whoopi Goldberg.

[Dax Shepard]

And you put her in the Color Purple.

[Allison Jones]

I wish.

[Dax Shepard]

Did you get good at delineating who's gonna work? Cause it's a big leap between standup and acting. And it goes very well for some and it goes really bad for others. Do you? You got good with your thin slicing or your radar was there anything you could tell on stage that was gonna be predictive of whether they could do it or not?

[Allison Jones]

For me, the bar was how funny they were. And for example, I did not know how good Jim Carrey would be as an actor, but I brought him in. I did not know how good Dennis Leary would be as an actor. There's an actor who needs a better career.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah. Deserves a better.

[Allison Jones]

Not a good one, but deserves a better because he unbelievably good actor as most many comics are good dramatically. What is more terrifying and difficult than standup comedy? Nothing. Nothing thing.

[Dax Shepard]

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare. We are supported by Amazon Prime. You might think of prime as your gateway to incredibly fast free shipping on all your Amazon orders, which it definitely is, but prime is so much more than that. Being a Prime member gives you access to prime video, Amazon music, prime gaming, ultra fast grocery delivery and tons of other benefits.

[Monica Padman]

It's a game changer, especially during the holiday season. Want to get in the holiday spirit while relaxing at home? Press play on a holiday playlist on Amazon Music or stream a festive movie on Prime Video. You've got an instant ticket to holiday cheer.

[Dax Shepard]

Sounds like a great night. Another way prime saves the holidays let's say a co worker got you a holiday present and you somehow forgot to get them something, seamlessly shop for their gift on Amazon.com and and then use prime to get free one day or same day delivery. So it's like they were on your gift list all along. So what are you waiting for? Become a Prime member today and get more out of whatever passions you're pursuing, whatever you're into. It's on Prime. We are supported by Audible. Audible's best of 2024 picks are here. Audible's curated list in every category is the best way to hear 2024's best in audio entertainment. Like a stunning new full cast production of George Orwell's 1984. This is the one I am most excited to indulge myself with.

[Monica Padman]

I'm so excited to listen to James, which is a new title by Percival effort that is very, very hot right now.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, there's so many good ones on the list.

[Monica Padman]

We love Audible. This is how you go to bed.

[Dax Shepard]

I love Audible. I swear by Audible. I can't wait to listen to the Orwell 1984 off this list. I'm also doing Fleas by Autobiography right now, which I'm obsessed with. I can't get enough Audible in my life every night. Go to audible.comdax and discover all the year's bests waiting for you. That's audible.com Dax we are supported by.

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[Dax Shepard]

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[Monica Padman]

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[Dax Shepard]

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[Monica Padman]

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[Dax Shepard]

Pill addy that's a d d y I.com we are supported by Klaviyo. Klaviyo helps brands build smarter digital relationships with their customers, and here at Armchair Expert we know a little something about how challenging that can be. Here's how Klaviyo does it. Their unified data and marketing automation platform turns customer Data into personalized connections to make every moment count across AI powered email, SMS analytics and more. Klaviyo powers smarter digital relationships for more than 151,000 successful brands, including Hedley and Bennett, Fish Wife and Dagny Dover. Build smarter digital relationships with your customers. Visit k L-A-V-I-Y-O.com to make every moment count. I've said it before, but I'll tell you. I had a scene in this movie I directed where Kristen and I are in an off road race car and we've got to drive through a barn door. And it's a real barn door. We're gonna break through a barn door and on the other side there's ramps that are this wide and then we're gonna jump two cars. And I'm directing, so I'm actually doing the whole thing. And it's dark inside the barn. It's gonna be very bright when we crash through the thing and then I gotta hit these little ramps. And we're sitting in the car right before we're about to go. And the stunt coordinator, my friend DiCastro, goes, How are you doing? I go, I'm good. He goes, how nervous are you? And I go, if standup is a 10, I'm at a 4. And that's a real comp for me.

[Allison Jones]

Oh, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Jumping a car over other cars is like 40% as scary as stand up.

[Allison Jones]

Yes. Wow. I have always admired stand up also because their hearts are on their sleeves. No matter how tough their act is or how tough and edgy their jokes are, every new line they're scared about, it's just you.

[Dax Shepard]

And when it goes bad and you know, you have another 18 minutes, there's really nothing like it.

[Allison Jones]

I admire them greatly. I also sort of relate to their insecurity and all that kind of stuff. Most people who gravitate to Hollywood, I have a lot of. It's scary.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, totally.

[Allison Jones]

Look for a lot of approval because the one thing I find about Hollywood and kind of Los Angeles in general is it's very accepting of all the freaks. And I like that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, big time.

[Monica Padman]

That's very true.

[Dax Shepard]

You might think it's gotta be a town of a bunch of people who really thought they were awesome.

[Allison Jones]

Completely not the way it is.

[Dax Shepard]

No, Completely counterintuitive.

[Allison Jones]

Completely opposite.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so by the time you get to Fresh Prince, my question about that is the show starts with Will Smith.

[Allison Jones]

Yes, it started with Will Smith and the late, great Quincy. I mean, the highlight of my career was getting to meet Quincy Jones.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. Cause he was a producer of.

[Allison Jones]

He was the producer and the creator. I think he grabbed Will and said, what can we do? And my partner in crime. We cast the show together, Sally Steiner. We drove up to Quincy Jones's house. I think it was Mulholland. But we were so starstruck.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, absolutely.

[Allison Jones]

I was always starstruck. And I still am starstruck.

[Monica Padman]

You are still. I know.

[Dax Shepard]

Come on.

[Allison Jones]

But I've only met you once on an audition years ago, and you don't remember, I'm sure, but you came in. Juana here pitched from Endeavor as the guy from Punk'd. And those are the days where it was like you sort of didn't do that if you were a sidekick on Punk. Now everybody and their brother from a TikTok video wants to be seen.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Allison Jones]

You had much longer hair.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, I did.

[Allison Jones]

And it was probably about 2003, because I remember I just finished the pilot of the Office, and Mitch Hurwitz had asked me to do the pilot of Arrested Development, and I couldn't do two pilots at once. It was too tortured. So I couldn't do the pilot. Deb Borilski did the pilot. Many podcasts name me as the person who did the pilot. I just did the seasons after season one. She did the pilot. And a beautiful job she did.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my God.

[Monica Padman]

Wow, What a cat.

[Allison Jones]

I was doing a pilot. John Landgraaf was the producer. It was fx, the early days of those places like fx. And it was called Dix D I C K S. And I just remember thinking, Dax, D A X is coming in for sticks.

[Dax Shepard]

That's a lot. Yeah.

[Allison Jones]

Visual learn. But you came in and you were very good. And I remember thinking, oh, wow, this guy from Punk is so hard to believe.

[Monica Padman]

This is exciting.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm blown away that you would remember that.

[Allison Jones]

Of course I remember specifically the agent pitching you when it was Endeavor, Greg Siegel.

[Dax Shepard]

It would have been.

[Allison Jones]

Yes, he would have said the guy from Punk'd, which, of course, I didn't know what it was.

[Dax Shepard]

Right, of course.

[Allison Jones]

But I had known Ashton Kutcher because there's all these stories that you could connect everybody to everything when you start out. I had met him on a wonderful pilot called Advances in Chemistry that the very brilliant Richie Rosenstock did. Again, ahead of its time. But he came in to audition for the Handsome Kid and he didn't get it because, God bless him, at the time, not an actor. He was only 20 or 19. And then Meg Lieberman brought him in for that 70s show, and the rest is history within like, two days.

[Dax Shepard]

I was gonna say, I think his story is. And we're very good friends.

[Allison Jones]

Oh, you are. That's so cool.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, yeah.

[Allison Jones]

How do I not know that?

[Dax Shepard]

We stayed very, very close. You wanna talk about casting? So I didn't make it through any of the rounds at MTV for. I was in a discarded pile of tapes that didn't get advanced to the producers. And Kutcher had seen everyone. They had basically circled. And he's like, no one has the vibe. Let me see the people that were rejected. And I was one of the people rejected. So my entire career, Ashton had done that?

[Allison Jones]

No, he had done 70 shows.

[Dax Shepard]

He was like. And he had done Just Married. So he was, like, newly a movie.

[Monica Padman]

Star at the time.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, enormously.

[Monica Padman]

Definitely physically hot at the time.

[Allison Jones]

He also.

[Monica Padman]

I was in the Zeitgeist.

[Dax Shepard]

Breathtaking.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So he dug me out. And so, yeah, my gratitude for him is off the charts. But. What? I wanted to own my baggage with casting directors.

[Allison Jones]

You do. Okay, I do.

[Dax Shepard]

I'll tell you why. It's all my insecurity, which was I was auditioning for nine years in commercials and I couldn't get them. I just couldn't book anything. I booked two in nine years. I came to view casting directors as people who didn't get me. I'm like, they don't get me. I can't get through this layer to anybody. And then the time that I finally did, it turned out, if we believe Ashton, I still hadn't gotten through the casting director. So I just had it in my mind, they don't like me, but I have to believe, hopefully, these creators might like me.

[Allison Jones]

Yeah, that's in everybody's head about everything.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

I was so insecure, I had been almost insane.

[Allison Jones]

We could eliminate that in the world.

[Monica Padman]

I know, it's so true.

[Dax Shepard]

I just had it in my mind because I was so insecure that for whatever reason, they don't like me.

[Monica Padman]

And then maybe you were also going in and because you thought they didn't like you, you might have been.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I don't think I was stupid enough to be mean.

[Monica Padman]

But you might not have been warm.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't think I was dumb enough to not be warm. I just really had it in my head.

[Allison Jones]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So did you put your chip on.

[Allison Jones]

Your shoulder, would you say?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I felt like casting directors knew people I was friends with and no one really knew me. And I was so insecure. And so I got into my mind, I've got to get to the other people.

[Allison Jones]

Yeah, right, right. I gotta go past these people somehow.

[Dax Shepard]

I gotta jump over this gate that's in front of me and get to those people. Because again, when I finally got hired on a TV show, it was from the creator of the show.

[Allison Jones]

Oh, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I got such limited data, and I'm telling this huge story based on this very limited data, and I'm completely wrong. And then I come to find out, like, you're saying you liked me, which is.

[Allison Jones]

Oh, yeah. I was like, wow, this kid from Punk, he's really actually a good actor.

[Monica Padman]

That's so funny. I have the opposite feeling towards casting.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, we talk about them all the time. Like, you know, the names of so many casting directors.

[Monica Padman]

Knew about you way before I moved to la. I was like, oh, my God, that is. She's the person. And if I could get an audition, like, even just getting an audition with. I remember when it happened, and I was like, this is the craziest day of my life. I was so excited. But to me, casting directors were almost like teachers. The teacher. I wanted the approval from the person who was gonna give me an A. And obviously I wanted the job. But I really wanted the casting director to like me so much.

[Allison Jones]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

Which I think backfired a lot. Cause, like, then I wasn't just me in commercials. This is probably bad to say I did really well in commercials because I didn't care that much. Yeah, I just went in and did it. And then, lo and behold, you do pretty well when you don't overthink or you can just be you. Yeah, I had the. I was like, cassie, directors, please love me.

[Allison Jones]

She's a good actress, though.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, yes. I've hired her as a.

[Allison Jones]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. I put her in chips. And I put her in the only commercial I ever directed. I love chips, but I can't do it. Oh, God bless you. Okay. What I did curb youb enthusiasm 99. You were still on to the end.

[Allison Jones]

I started in season three. Jeff Garland is a good and wonderful friend. He brought me on in season three. And then I was on for many, many seasons, except for a couple seasons where I wasn't available.

[Dax Shepard]

But were you there when Monica got to do Kirby? Yes.

[Monica Padman]

They both.

[Allison Jones]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Very sweet.

[Allison Jones]

So jealous. You would have had to play yourself on Kirby.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't think I was famous enough to play myself. And then I was too famous enough to play.

[Allison Jones]

You can't not play yourself.

[Dax Shepard]

And now the show's over.

[Allison Jones]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I got in this sweet spot right before it ended too.

[Allison Jones]

But I did A lot of my self education then too. Cause I tried to know every improv person in the universe. Cause I was lucky enough to be doing the Office, Curb and Arrested Development, starting with season two. If you go back and watch, then you'll see the same season. Everybody does Curb, everybody does Arrested. All the same people. That was when from my own history in comedy, nobody got improv acting. Nobody brought them into the fore until it was like Judd Apatow and Paul Feige. For me, it was all casting sitcom pilots. And it was always tough. Tough to find anybody funny, tough to find anybody who can pull off the sitcom. And in those days, tough to find anybody great looking enough for a network to approve them.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. You had to have a lot of things.

[Allison Jones]

Yeah, you did have to have a lot of things. So that was when Judd and Adam McKay and Paul Feig, they started appreciating the fact that most improv actors or comedians who then got into improv was not in the fore of comedy either. When I started again, it was all stand up comics. Improv was still Second City and it was Groundlings, which were sort of character oriented.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, you're right. There was this huge talent pool that no one was really looking at.

[Allison Jones]

No one. Until sort of Second City started to move. I was trying to pluck people out of Second City in the early 90s. I remember going there to see Second City the first time when we were looking for Carlton on Fresh Prince of Bel Air.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, no kidding.

[Allison Jones]

And they said, can we just go to Chicago and look for some of these kids? Cause I don't know. And so I went to Second City for the first time. And that's when I met Jeff Garland. But on main stage at that time was Steve Carell and Stephen Colbert and Amy Sedaris and Paul Danello and Jeff Garland. It was crazy. And Mitch Rouse. Anyway, that history of comedy. But when I started to do a lot of comedy shows and bringing a lot of the improv comedy was when the State had started and when Kids in the hall had started. Yes, that stuff all came through. Basically what was then called the Comedy Channel, I think was Comedy Central, but I think it was called something else, the comedy.

[Dax Shepard]

Now there was a great little boom. Cause it was Kids in the hall and then the State. And then Ben Stiller had a sketch show and then you had Mr. Show.

[Allison Jones]

He started it all as well.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, he's done.

[Allison Jones]

I mean, Ben Stiller, very important in comedy. And I think they owe the biggest debt to Mr. Show. Yeah, to Bob Odenkirk and David Cross, which would air at midnight on hbo.

[Dax Shepard]

A whole new genre.

[Allison Jones]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. We had Jack Black on, and I was telling him, you know, I used to go to the live tapings of that show, and it seemed like just the most penetrative. Oh, you did? Was he in Tie Dye? Yes.

[Allison Jones]

He's hard to miss. I had cast him in a couple of day player roles when he was first starting out, and he was very singular, Jack Black. And he could deliver one line and you'd remember it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Allison Jones]

And he was with the Gage Group very early on in his career. In every casting office, you have people that you remember and keep bringing in and bringing in until they get the part that really propels them into a long career.

[Dax Shepard]

So that was going to be one of my questions. Do you get a swell of pride when you see, like, a Chris Pratt?

[Allison Jones]

I do.

[Monica Padman]

You have to.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Allison Jones]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

You cast Parks and Rack.

[Allison Jones]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

If it's not obvious, you're the only casting director we've ever invited in.

[Allison Jones]

Oh, thank you.

[Dax Shepard]

And largely because I have someone who didn't learn about casting directors like Monica did, I started noticing. I'm like, this Veep cast is impossible. Who on earth figured out that all these people were this level of brilliance? And that's when I think Veep. When I was like, oh, it's you. You're. And then I was like, oh, and. And the other impossible cast would have been Parks and Rec. Wow. You did that. And you've had several of those. It's just impossible. The level of collective talent and unknown. And I realize, oh, you're a big, big piece of that. It's kind of like for me, when I realized, oh, John Bryan the composer might have as much to do with the Paul Thomas Anderson movies that I like, because Eternal Sunshine I also like in the same way. And he has composed. That's like a revelation. Oh, maybe. I love John Bryan.

[Allison Jones]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

When all of your favorite comedies, you look and it's you who's casted and like.

[Allison Jones]

Thank you so much.

[Monica Padman]

Wait a minute. Yeah, I think this might be about the music.

[Allison Jones]

Connection is interesting, though I do love certain soundtracks, starting with Alfred Hitchcock movies. And they are what connect your fandom. I think a lot of the time that's a great point. In features, casting directors always get credited. It seems the card right after the music. The music editor. And I love that.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so you. Do you get a swell of pride when Chris.

[Allison Jones]

Oh, God, yes. And I bore people with all the stories I'm boring you with now.

[Dax Shepard]

No, I love that.

[Allison Jones]

That's fantastic.

[Dax Shepard]

I guess. Here's my question. Cause Kristen and I were at a hotel once and he and Annie were there and we ended up hanging out for three days. And I'm like, this guy's so radical. He's so real. He's from Oregon. He was a wrestler. He's a hunter and he's funny.

[Allison Jones]

Pickup truck. He used to show his funny side again.

[Monica Padman]

I know I've been flying liking that a lot lately.

[Allison Jones]

And Jack Black needs to show his dramatic side. We have all these thoughts casting people. We talk about this all the time.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I bet. What does Kristen need to do? Keep on keeping on.

[Monica Padman]

Pretty good. No.

[Allison Jones]

Keep on keeping on. But she would be great in a down and dirty drama.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Allison Jones]

Wouldn't she want to. I would, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

She wants a dramatic actress.

[Dax Shepard]

She would. And then I always talk her out of it. Do you really why I don't talk her out of it. I remind her of what life she wants, which is she wants to be at home seeing her kids. She does not want to be on location. She wants man manageable hours. She wants to know she can drive the kids to school. She wants to. So going away to you know, Georgia for four months is a down and.

[Allison Jones]

Dirty drama MCU universe for Kristen. She should be do a real movie, indie movie or something. Queen Pins was great for her.

[Dax Shepard]

Uh huh. You cast that?

[Allison Jones]

I did.

[Dax Shepard]

We love Kirby. Kirby's.

[Allison Jones]

Kirby's the best. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Kirby's a diamond.

[Allison Jones]

Kirby we've hired forever the richest talent pool is comedy.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Allison Jones]

Frank, my argument and you would I think agree because you've directed now is so many drama actors. Some of them are brilliant at comedy going the other way. Comedy to drama is much more frequent and much more a surprise.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Allison Jones]

Sacha Baron Cohen is very good in disclaimer.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. I think it's because comedy requires you to be.

[Allison Jones]

It requires a lot of pain.

[Monica Padman]

It does.

[Allison Jones]

I mean and a lot of experience and a lot of beating yourself up and a lot of stuff to drop.

[Dax Shepard]

And I'm gonna add. And people will be mad about this. Comedy's straight up harder than drama.

[Allison Jones]

Beyond straight up harder than drama.

[Dax Shepard]

There's so many tools that can be employed in a drama to help you. You could have no look on your face and do the perfect push in and the right spot.

[Allison Jones]

People think you're a genius. Yes, exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

There's no cheating a joke. You can't cheat a laugh. You can put a fart noise in or something. But in general it works or it doesn't work. There's no manipulating it. You can't put the perfect song in all of those. Of.

[Allison Jones]

Of course not. Though they try.

[Dax Shepard]

They do try. And it's generally generic. Okay. Can you think of some people that you really went to the mat over that didn't get it that then turned out to be huge? Do you feel like you've got some great vindicated stories?

[Allison Jones]

You should have a group casting director thing because people would be shocked at how many people flunked first and then got the big. It's tenacity. Tenacity, tenacity. It used to be in pilot season, the people who didn't get the roles the next season would get the roles, and the next season, the people who didn't even get as far as the network would get the roles.

[Dax Shepard]

That's good to know.

[Allison Jones]

It is a cycle, though. It is tenacity.

[Dax Shepard]

Can you think of someone that you were like, you just battled and lost.

[Allison Jones]

Oh, yeah. Battled for Elizabeth Banks to get many things. It was mostly like women whose studios didn't think were pretty enough. Like Elizabeth Banks. We finally got her into. 20 year old. Virginia Banks isn't pretty enough.

[Monica Padman]

What the fuck?

[Allison Jones]

Or Amy Adams.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, God.

[Allison Jones]

Or funny enough. Both. By the way. Wickedly funny. Elizabeth does a lot of comedies, but Amy needs to get back to some good comedy. Cause she's wickedly funny.

[Dax Shepard]

She needs to just have some fun maybe.

[Allison Jones]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

For a few months.

[Allison Jones]

I'm sure she would like to. Comedy is a little bit in a coma now these days. It's not a great film, so not many opportunities. Brie Larson is who I was gonna mention was never. I mean, this is a gorgeous, talented girl and she was never good enough for a studio to approve her. They just didn't think she was the leading lady. And then boom, an Academy Award later and all kinds of stuff. Yeah. That I do love.

[Monica Padman]

It would be so hard for me for them to be passing on Brie Larson and Elizabeth Banks and Amy Adams. I would be like, guys, why are you doing this?

[Allison Jones]

Wait a minute. You're approving Seth Rogen and you're passing on these people?

[Monica Padman]

Exactly. I would be saying it.

[Allison Jones]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

You've navigated lots of different eras in this business.

[Allison Jones]

We say it all the time.

[Dax Shepard]

So if you're working with a director, they're casting their third movie or show and you've cast hundreds. How do you manage? Manage. Not saying, like, you're wrong. You're gonna have to trust me. This is my expertise.

[Allison Jones]

I try never to go there. Because once I said you're wrong to somebody And I got screamed at. Don't you tell me I am wrong.

[Dax Shepard]

You deal with a lot of egos. Do you have.

[Allison Jones]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

You do?

[Allison Jones]

Yes. Don't you ever say I'm wrong. And I'm not wrong.

[Dax Shepard]

I've never been wrong.

[Allison Jones]

And by the way, he was dead wrong.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, exactly.

[Allison Jones]

And that actor became a huge star.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, see? And you deserve to have the ego.

[Allison Jones]

Your resume, casting directors fight, fight, fight. So much for actors. I brought this up recently. I wish actors could appreciate how much we do fight for them.

[Dax Shepard]

I gotta tell you this. This is the truth. Generally I research people and then in the process of researching them, there's some curiosities, that kind of surface. I've never sat down and just had questions like, I have.

[Allison Jones]

No, please.

[Dax Shepard]

Have you developed a radar for who's gonna be problematic? Like they might be genius level in the room, but do you think you've gotten good at going, yeah, this person's talented, but there's not gonna be worth it.

[Allison Jones]

You can tell when certain people are annoying in the room, when they're auditioning, that they're maybe a little rough on a director. Directors can tell that too. Somebody will read and ask questions or ask the wrong questions. The way you can read people in general. Even though somebody who waits on you at McDonald's is like that little prick. Yeah, right, right.

[Dax Shepard]

I bet she's a great mom.

[Allison Jones]

Exactly. The way you can read people, it's just a people reading thing. And yes, I do believe I have instincts for that though, in terms of behavior in the. I don't ever repeat it unless I've seen it or it's been on a movie that I've worked on. Like somebody else saying, don't ever hire that actor. They're difficult.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Allison Jones]

I want to make sure it's accurate. So many actors get a bad rap because they didn't get on with the director or a producer. And it's actually the director who is the problem.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Allison Jones]

It happens so much to women.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, is that true? So more often you'll hear, don't work.

[Allison Jones]

With a woman is difficult. And come on, you know. And then you hear the director's name. It's like, come on.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Allison Jones]

Women still do not have a leg up.

[Dax Shepard]

What pisses you off the most in the casting process?

[Allison Jones]

I'll never work again. All the casting executives, the levels of people that we have to go through and the levels of people that we have to CC and update and you're.

[Monica Padman]

Talking about in a studio.

[Allison Jones]

I'm talking about in a studio. Or film, television. There's so many levels, and it really throws me off my game. And this has been for decades, frankly, in casting, you need, like, what we're doing now, we're tracing people back for 30 years. We need to do that in our brains. And if you're constantly concerned, as I am about, oh, my God, I forgot to put a name on a list, oh, my God, this person thought of this person, oh, my God, this person's cousin wants to be seen. Oh, my God, this person's manager asked me to see this person. You have absolutely the shortest synapses you could possibly have. You lose that long term thinking of, who is this person I loved in that show? And I can't remember who it was. That's what I want to spend my brain power on. And we are exhausted by the end of the day, and that is the only time we have to do it. It's so much more difficult now to actually be creative.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Okay. What are your thoughts about improvising in an audition?

[Allison Jones]

Only if you know it's okay. Do a little bit of research. People see me and they think, I can improvise. But I will say, okay, this one don't improvise. Oh, yeah, that's good, you know, because some actors will do it. All these beautiful comics, most of the time they come up with funnier stuff than is on the page. People like Judd Apatow and Paul Feig and Mitch Hurwitz and Adam McKay, they appreciate. Yes, they want that. Larry David wants that. But I will warn them before coming in or tell their agent, and I pray to God the agent tells the manager, who tells the assistant who tells the assistant who tells the assistant to the actor. To the actor. Don't improv.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, right.

[Allison Jones]

There is a line between comedy people who want to hear every line they write and comedy people who don't care. And they say, you can't make a wrong step. Just do whatever you want. So you should ask.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay?

[Allison Jones]

Please ask.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Allison Jones]

Otherwise, they'll think you can't do the.

[Dax Shepard]

Thing, which maybe I. I can't. No, I've kind of gone like this. And again, I'm not giving this advice to any actor at all. I don't think this is a good strategy. Here's what I told myself. At some point, I'm like, I'm better. If I can make this thing a little bit mine, I'll be different. It might anger you, but I'll be memorable. I've got to be me, because this is who you're gonna deal With. So actually, it's a favor for all of us if we find out now there are other people that are much better at this. If that's what you want, then I. Here's the thing I can do. Well, maybe that'll appeal to you. Or not. Like, at some point, I feel like maybe it was just an attempt to get some control over the experience, which feels very powerless of like, I'm gonna give you what I am, and maybe you'll like it, maybe you'll hate it.

[Allison Jones]

Yeah, I think that's great. I do. Depending if you're in there for Judd or somebody, you should absolutely do that. Because I find myself. I'll publicly apologize to Beck Bennett now because once he came in for a pilot of Brooklyn, and after the audition, I said, wait, Mike, can he do it again? Because he can be better. It just came out of my mouth. Bring it way down. Something like that. And then he was great. He had chosen to make the character big. And I love Beck Bennett.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Allison Jones]

Get the guy a major movie in a major show. If I'm allowed to say that.

[Dax Shepard]

And when you say Mike, you're talking about Schur.

[Allison Jones]

Mike Schur. Yes.

[Monica Padman]

We love the best of the very.

[Allison Jones]

That's why his shows are spectacular. Plug for the new Ted Danson show, which is spectacular. You guys are gonna love it.

[Dax Shepard]

Kristen just did a little thing on.

[Allison Jones]

I know I. I didn't get to go to that, but I know she did a little bit, but. Yeah. Mike Shore is a director who is a dream because he wants to see who you are. And he doesn't care about the words. He does, ultimately, but he doesn't. Because you find stuff there that you would bring to it or that Beck Bennett would bring to it that is not on the page. And you do need to show them who you are.

[Dax Shepard]

And you gotta be able to do the thing. I totally do.

[Allison Jones]

You have to be able to do the thing.

[Monica Padman]

I think a mix is always good. Like if you, for the most part, stick to the sides the whole time. But maybe you improvise on the button or you add a little side.

[Allison Jones]

You better ask.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, great.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Allison Jones]

They will say, I've had major comedy people go, he changed my line.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah.

[Allison Jones]

And I'll always be defensive of the actor. Always.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Allison Jones]

Like, I don't like it when they make fun of an actor. I just. Always defensive when they leave.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah.

[Allison Jones]

Or what they worn.

[Dax Shepard]

Come on. Yeah. Okay. What do you think about coming in character and foregoing the chit chat?

[Allison Jones]

What do actors like Cause I always try to make an actor feel at home when they come in. But I realize I should ask the actor, do you just want to come in and do it and then talk?

[Dax Shepard]

It's gotta be project specific, right?

[Allison Jones]

Drama.

[Dax Shepard]

No.

[Allison Jones]

Chit chat. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I've come into things. I remember I almost got on True Detective. So I go into that and I'm like, you know what? I want to get to the acting as quickly as possible because I am funny in real life and I'm joyous. And then I don't want to have that huge radical shift for you. I'd rather just come in, be polite and do the thing and let you see that I can be a badass and then leave. But I don't know, I feel like it's project specific.

[Allison Jones]

I mean, I've always, always just being, I think, empathetic to actors when they come in. Because no matter who it's in there, it's a dead room. And coming in to audition for comedy is ridiculous. You're in a vacuum and you're trying.

[Dax Shepard]

To be funny, and they've seen it 45 times.

[Allison Jones]

Exactly. And it's a ridiculous task. So that's why I also think self taping is beneficial.

[Dax Shepard]

Great.

[Allison Jones]

That was one of my questions. You come in and then I should ask actors, can I say something and make a joke? I always try to just make some sort of joke or mention I just saw them in something. But I do have a feel for if they kind of just want to start. Because what I am cut off from is, I appreciate it, but how much preparation you folks have done and how you've talked yourself out of it and have beat yourself up.

[Dax Shepard]

The whole car right there.

[Allison Jones]

Oh, it's the lobby.

[Dax Shepard]

The lobby is the worst. The lobby is you're listening to other great comedians and you see the same people.

[Allison Jones]

Can I tell a small anecdote?

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, please.

[Allison Jones]

Donald the Lyon's movie. He did a movie of Yogi Bear.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, yes.

[Allison Jones]

Which was lovely. People should discover that for their kids or put it on Netflix. And I was bringing in the greatest comedy people ever. Dan Aykroyd was willing to come in and read for Yogi Bear. He was. But of course the studio thinks they have to hear him do it, which is ridiculous. That's the other thing. I'm like, just hire this person. But that never works. He came in and then Rob Cordry came in and he said, I have to follow Dan Aykroyd. Yeah. Instantly was like, God. I know. Because my generation, I was starstruck to Even meet Dan Aykroyd.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, of course.

[Allison Jones]

But you see who's coming in. You came in before you.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, it's so rough.

[Monica Padman]

Such a mind fuck.

[Allison Jones]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

You're already nervous. And then you see these four guys are definitely better than me.

[Allison Jones]

I have to cut myself off from or else I'll just be. Too much jelly of sympathy. I was gonna say that is how much preparation. And when they leave, it always just blows me away. Somebody who gives an incredible audition and who you can tell worked on it so hard. That is impressive. That is how you audition, right?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Like you can't take on everyone's energy. The amount of energy. Oh. Oh, my God.

[Allison Jones]

But God bless actors from A to Z.

[Dax Shepard]

Very gracious, Honest to God.

[Allison Jones]

Oh. Some of them come in not prepared at all. And then you're like, just leave. You're a jackass. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

What's the number one mistake you see actors make?

[Allison Jones]

I would say not with me, but when you're in with a big director, a big producer doing it and saying, I didn't like that, can I do it again?

[Dax Shepard]

Good tip.

[Allison Jones]

People can do it, but sometimes you.

[Dax Shepard]

Better be fucking great. That next adjustment.

[Allison Jones]

I think so. And I think sometimes you sort of want for the director to do that. Get a feel for the room, be prepared and don't come in. And I know you can be nervous and I will try to help. Is that the camera? That's what actors do. I would say just sort of read the room sometimes. And don't come in and say, I just got the sides last night, so I'm not prepared. That's an old trick some actors have done for decades.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Allison Jones]

I will already know which actor's gonna come in and go, ugh, I just got the sides last night.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Allison Jones]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, great. These are great tips.

[Allison Jones]

And don't chew gum in an audition unless it calls for it. A lot of people are insecure and they'll eat food or chew gum in an audition. Eat food, also bring a big sandwich. Well, you asked me about, what do you think about coming in in character?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Allison Jones]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I can see freaking people out or I can see it really working.

[Allison Jones]

And you mean coming in in character, being the character not dressed like a policeman or something?

[Dax Shepard]

Well, that's two questions, I guess.

[Allison Jones]

Well, self tapes. I think it's fine to look like the person because studio executives who approve these parts, you're in a cop uniform, they're going to think, oh, he can.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, that does a lot of the work.

[Allison Jones]

God bless them. But most of them think Surface things.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. They're juggling different things.

[Allison Jones]

Yes, exactly. And then you do have a group of executives who are unbelievably tuned into the creative part of it. But many are not. But I would say come in in character with comedy, I think it's okay. I wouldn't say you have to. But for example, JB Smoove came in to audition for Curb as the character he had made up. And he came in Larry. Larry David.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Allison Jones]

You know, he came in instantly. Larry was on the floor.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Allison Jones]

He had the part immediately, basically.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Allison Jones]

So you gotta be pretty confident when you do it. You gotta be good and you gotta be confident. Cause then it won't hurt you. In my opinion.

[Dax Shepard]

I could see someone going, this is a little scary. I need to know the real person.

[Allison Jones]

Yes. Yeah, exactly. Frequently also, when the scene is done, you get a feel for the person.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Allison Jones]

The way in Borat. Ken Davision, who played his assistant in Borat in the first Borat movie, came in with Sasha. Did not know. But with a very authentic Eastern European accent. And then after he was done, after he got the. We told him he was American.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, wow.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, that's great.

[Allison Jones]

So that was smart. And Sasha was blown away because we Ali GED him. I mean, we.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. What's the hardest role you've ever had to cast? Meaning you read the most amount of people and traveled the greatest distance.

[Allison Jones]

McClovin.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, really?

[Allison Jones]

Nobody knows what McClellan is? Yes. Oh, I would say it was the toughest role ever to cast because it took months and months. Pre Internet. I. I think we did some sort of a MySpace thing. That was the first big Internet thing, right? MySpace.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Allison Jones]

And it turned up nobody. Those are the days. You still put up flyers in high schools and things like that. Wow. And I knew I wasn't turning up a good geek. You know, I know I can recognize a good geek. And Judd was like, no, no, no, no, no. Michael Cera first came in from McLevin. And then it was apparent he was perfect. That was right after he finished Arrested Development. So he wasn't a star yet. We still had to read every kid in to play Seth and Evan. Jud first only wanted kids who were actually 18 or 19. So at the time, Jonah was a little bit too old. We wanted him to do the table read. And no, Judd wanted kids younger. I sort of ignored kids who were older than 19 or 20. And then it did dawn on Judd. Wait a minute. Jonah looks like a baby. Of course he can do this. And then Michael Cera came back and read as Seth. And of course. Wait a minute.

[Dax Shepard]

Or Evan.

[Allison Jones]

Or Evan. One of the two. But McLovin, I wanted to find the most amazing nerd ever. Greg Mottola did, too. And I knew I wasn't turning anybody up. Casting people know when they're not deliver and you had to keep looking. And so we put up flyers in high schools. And I still have a copy of my flyer. It was, attention, nerdy high school boys. Call this number or fax. Fax your picture to this number. The little headshot of Christopher Mint's planse came through a bad fax. His forehead was stretched out, and the picture came through, and it was like, okay, we're gonna see this kid. We had sent in. My associate at the time, Delia Frankel, had looked up improv classes in high schools. So we had sent them around to high schools, and they were calling us. And I think the way he got was one of his friend's mothers said, there's a flyer for a nerdy high school kid, Christopher. I think you should submit it. So he came in. Judd saw it instantly. Other people did not. I did. Judd did. The reason I thought he was funny is because part of the scene was he had to name his character McLoving. He said McLoving instead of McCloven. Crack me up. Just the way he said it. Those are the little things that you recognize in comedy.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Allison Jones]

And he was just like coke bottle glasses kind of a kid, the same way that Martin Starr was. He read for all three male roles in Freaks and Geeks, all the geek roles. And he was just like, bingo, he's one of them, and knew what he was doing. He came in and he was like, wow, look at the way this kid looks. And he can act, right. Wow. Same with Tim Simons when he came in for Veep. Thank you for. Thanks for that compliment, by the way. Veep and Parks and Rex knock me out, those casts. And I'm not saying it to pat myself on the back, they're out there.

[Dax Shepard]

They're impossible.

[Allison Jones]

It's all an act of faith, all of it. And they knock me out.

[Dax Shepard]

We heard he was a casting assistant.

[Allison Jones]

He was at some point. I think he was. I don't know specifically, but not four Veep. But, I mean, you found Tim the way I found Tim, and it's a great sort of casting story. I should get into the Phyllis story too. Am I taking you over too much time?

[Monica Padman]

We love it.

[Allison Jones]

One of my associates at the time, Peter Kusakis, who's now a great manager at Mosaic. He said, would you meet my friend Tim Symonds? He said, did you see that Abraham Lincoln commercial? When she says, does this make my butt look big? And I said, oh yeah, that tall guy, he's cool. Of course I would see him. I love to see new people, of course, as all casting people do. And then I met him. I think we just brought him in to read for something and it was like, oh, he's really good. We put that in our head bank. And I brought him in shortly thereafter. I think, for one thing, that he didn't get. And then I brought him in for the Veep pilot, which was written as like a short, stocky chainsaw. Any good casting director, you don't really read the writer's description. Cause you need to just bring in good people.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, yes.

[Allison Jones]

So he came in and he was killer funny. We read great people for the Veep pilot because that writing is Armando Iannucci. And Julia came in for the sessions and read with people. So that was very enjoyable. But Tim came in and killed it. But his competition was stiff and when we got to the network at hbo, he was great. And after talking, I was able to hear how they came to the conclusion that Tim Symons was the way to go. And again against some very comedy people. And Julia would talk about it and how she wanted to act with these people. Julia was a large part of picking that cast. She said about Tony Hale versus the competition for Tony Hale. I would not be embarrassed to ask Tony Hale to get me a Tampax.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Allison Jones]

And that's how he decided he would be the perfect bag man. He said, Tony would not embarrass me. The other person might embarrass me. And it turns out that we ended up using all the runner ups in recurring roles on Veep.

[Dax Shepard]

What a frigging cast.

[Monica Padman]

What do you want to tell.

[Allison Jones]

Oh, Phyllis? I don't know if this is generally known. I think it is that Phyllis was my associate for seven or eight years and we were casting the pilot of the Office with Ken Kwapas. We were in the room reading. We had two days of final testing for all the different combinations we could use for the Office. I was reading and Phyllis was filming and Ken Kwapus just sort of tiptoed over to me and said, let Phyllis read with the actors. Cause I think she might be good in the background. It was like, of course she would look at the people in the British office in the background. They're real looking people.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah.

[Allison Jones]

And so, yes, we let Phyllis read, and she went in to read with the test between, like, Krasinski and Jenna and a lot of other people. I had previously been reading with Steve and a few other people, and she was great. We were so excited. And then Greg, when he faxed over the pilot and there was one line for Phyllis, we went, how exciting. Cause at the time, Phyllis was gonna make like, $630 for the day, and that was exciting. SAG scale.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Allison Jones]

Yeah. In 2003, right about the time I met Dax Shepard.

[Dax Shepard]

Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare. We are supported by Shutterfly. Shutterfly's custom photo gifts are a great way to commemorate the big moments from your year. A wedding, a new baby, a new puppy. Put them on a canvas print, an engraved ornament, or in a photo book. Monica, some of the best gifts I've ever received in my life were from you. Using Shutterfly.

[Monica Padman]

Yes. Making calendars of hot men.

[Dax Shepard]

Men's bodies. They're beautiful calendars. I mean, aside from the bodies inside, they're just beautiful.

[Monica Padman]

They are. And a calendar is such a good gift for anyone. You can make it funny like we did, but it can also be really sweet and personal about the year. It's a great gift.

[Dax Shepard]

Explore gifts like blankets, mugs, photo books and [e-mail] all easy to customize in minutes with your favorite photos. Enjoy. 40% off your Shutterfly order with code DAX for 40 and make something meaningful this year. Get free shipping on qualified orders. See site for more details. We are supported by 23andMe plus total health. As the year winds down, we often spend time reflecting on what's important. Well, taking proactive steps to take care of your own health is one of the most loving things we can do for the people who love us. And with 23andMe, you can do just. Just that. With 23andMe plus total health, you'll receive advanced genetic screening, giving you a lifetime of insight into your potential future disease risks. It can help lead to early detection and even prevention. It's a longevity platform that helps you be proactive about your health. With cutting edge genetic testing and biomarker analysis, you can create a health plan that is tailored just for you. As you know, I've been. We're both in this study, and I've been going back to 23andMe and ordering different results, which is so cool. It's all sitting there for me to do.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, that's so cool because we've done it before and we really loved what we learned Also do it as a family or like as a friendship. It's really fun to read. Get your results and you can read them together. It's fun.

[Dax Shepard]

It is advocate for your health today. Go to 23andMe.com Dax for your limited time offer. That's 23andMe.com Dax Apple Card is the perfect card for your holiday shop shopping. You can apply on your iPhone in minutes and start using it right away. You'll earn up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase, including products at Apple like a new iPhone 16 or Apple Watch Ultra. Start holiday shopping for your friends and family today with Apple Card subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch terms and [e-mail] well, I mentioned a new thing. This wasn't one of my questions, but it just occurred to me, talking about technology, clearly now a big driver of who gets cast is like, what their.

[Allison Jones]

Following is not in what I work on.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Allison Jones]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Allison Jones]

I wouldn't have a clue. And if somebody says to me, oh, they have so many followers, or they're this on TikTok, it's not a negative for me, but it means, well, they're not a trained actor. Maybe they're funny. I'll look at a clip and it's like, that person's not going to. And I've been wrong many times, but usually it's a version of that.

[Dax Shepard]

How about this? What percentage of the roles on the shows and movies that you're casting already have stars attached?

[Allison Jones]

Almost 100%. Movies have to have a star attached to get it made. To get any financing, you probably need two or three. No matter how low the budget, even maybe the lower the budget, you need the financiers to say, we got Kristen Bell in.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Allison Jones]

Dick Shepherd.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. Well, I'll play it, too. Now we're adding, we're adding up to.

[Monica Padman]

Like half a Kristen Bell to mix all three. It's looking pretty good.

[Allison Jones]

And TV frequently. Now for the streamers. They probably have a project attached to, like, I'm currently doing Bill Orange's show with Steve Carell, but we're casting everybody around him.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. So what is your preference? Do you like to start with a clean slate or do you like.

[Allison Jones]

Oh, I'd love to start with a clean slate. The Office, we started with a clean slate.

[Dax Shepard]

And would you prefer to break unknowns in comedy? For sure. It's got to be more rewarding for you.

[Allison Jones]

It's so much more to give someone a break.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

Earlier you said, I Love meeting new people, as all casting directors do, but I don't think that's true. I think you're an exception. I think a lot of casting directors, they don't necessarily want to see anyone new. They want reliable people they already know. And I think it's special.

[Allison Jones]

I don't know about that. I couldn't speak for other people.

[Monica Padman]

Well, I think it's special.

[Allison Jones]

You might be more of an expert in that than I, but I know that we all have our favorites based on how we perceive the talent and how they can deliver and how they haven't been given a shot to deliver. I'll read something and think, oh, this is perfect for Monica Padman. Or this is perfect for Rory Scoville or something. And they haven't been given that huge shot yet.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

But I think that's an exception. I really do.

[Allison Jones]

You really do? I don't know.

[Monica Padman]

I think it's special.

[Dax Shepard]

Have you had people who, you know, are so talented and you've seen them be so talented and they just can't audition?

[Allison Jones]

Oh, plenty. Especially in comedy.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And is it heartbreaking?

[Allison Jones]

It's heartbreaking because my job then is to talk the director in and to show them stuff or another audition where they've done it. Sometimes it works and sometimes it just doesn't. People will listen to you and then people won't listen to you.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I gotta say, one of the. I think more difficult things about this job is I don't know how good Daniel Day Lewis is as an auditioner.

[Allison Jones]

He would probably be the worst auditioner.

[Dax Shepard]

He probably would be. It's a different skill set. It's almost the closest they'll get to stand up. They don't have any of the environment. They don't have the other actors.

[Allison Jones]

There's the reverse. There are people who are great auditioners who then on the set, you don't get anything more from them. Yeah, yeah. You get the line reading from the audition. However, a kid who was great from the time he was 12, Leonardo DiCaprio.

[Monica Padman]

Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so let's talk about Once Upon. I gotta say, in the last 10 years, the performance that has blown my mind more than any other and I watch the movie all the time is Once Upon a time. Leonardo DiCaprio in that movie is so next level. I don't think people are recognizing that he's playing three levels of actor. He is an actor playing an actor who's okay sometimes. And then he has a moment where he's great.

[Allison Jones]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

But he's not as great as Leonardo DiCaprio can be great. He's as great as that actor can be great. When you see what's going on in that scene and what he's having to juggle, it's so impressive.

[Allison Jones]

He has never given a bad performance. He's always almost better than some of the movies he's in. Killers of the Flower Moon. Any other actor in that part would have been like they were doing a role from a sketch in Hootenanny, you know, it was like, are you kidding me? He was heartbreakingly good in that role. And he was so over the top. And the version of that in comedy is like Steve Carell as Michael Scott. So over the top, but still unbelievably real and good. You gotta be a genius to pull those off.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, Allison Jones, this has been such a delight and a delight for me.

[Allison Jones]

I could talk to you guys for hours.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, same.

[Monica Padman]

You're the best.

[Dax Shepard]

You're so sweet and wonderful, and I'm. Well, I guess my single last question is, you refuted my claim of 42 years. But it is 41 years.

[Allison Jones]

Might be 41 and a half, but just say 41.

[Dax Shepard]

How on earth have you kept your stamina to stay hungry? And your job is so hard, the hours are so crazy. How have you stayed hungry and dialed in?

[Allison Jones]

Only cause I like it. However, the past 10, 15 years, it's a different business in terms of what we do and in terms of pressure you get from top heavy things. And things have changed completely.

[Dax Shepard]

You're like a doctor that has to do managed care now with the insurance provider.

[Allison Jones]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Allison Jones]

Perfect. And even since streaming has started, it's incredibly different. You go to one of these streamers and we become just data entry people. Everything's put into algorithm. I hate the word algorithm. They've algorithmized creativity and you can't do that. Yeah, but they have and they've tried in terms of payment and who to cast and what's going to appeal to a certain group of people overseas or here. Netflix is doing that a little too much, I think, just in my very humble opinion.

[Dax Shepard]

Right, right.

[Monica Padman]

It's not a humble opinion. Your opinion again, if you're batting average, is fucking ridiculous. I was right to be so excited to get an audition for.

[Allison Jones]

Well, you're so kind.

[Monica Padman]

You're a legend.

[Dax Shepard]

We're super honored that you guys chatted with us.

[Allison Jones]

My assistant, Hannah, freaked out when I told her I was doing this.

[Monica Padman]

Well, she did.

[Allison Jones]

Yeah. I'm afraid I'm not a podcast person either, and I should be Because I'm a true crime person more than anything.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, then you're missing out on that.

[Allison Jones]

I know, but I googled Armchair Expert and I typed too fast and it said arm hair expert. I'm not kidding.

[Dax Shepard]

That should be another show we do.

[Allison Jones]

Arm hair expert.

[Monica Padman]

You know, I have.

[Allison Jones]

I need one.

[Monica Padman]

I have army. Yeah, it's literally same.

[Dax Shepard]

I forgot one question I want to answer. This is a nosy question. When you have a track record like yours and someone wants to cast a comedy, starting with you is like starting with Jimmy Burrows.

[Allison Jones]

Thank you.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you get to participate ever in the success of a show?

[Allison Jones]

No, and I wish I had. On a couple of indies I have.

[Monica Padman]

You mean financially?

[Allison Jones]

One of them has paid off. Extremely. But casting directors, we can't even get paid ads. I mean, we just don't get anything because studios don't care and they don't understand.

[Monica Padman]

That's insane.

[Dax Shepard]

I feel like you should be a participant. You should be with your level.

[Allison Jones]

You can on indie movies, because they do need you to attach some of their leads, things like that. But no, on television, never. If I had residuals on shows like Boy Meets World, Fresh Prince of Bel Air, the Office, I'd be retired right now and I'd be very happy.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Allison Jones]

But no, we do not. And I wish we did. That's the next step. This year, I was able to help negotiate with the AMPTP and the Teamsters, and it was fascinating. And we can only go baby step by baby step, but when we could ever participate, especially in a cast like the Office, which you do do. From scratch.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Allison Jones]

And people do know your value as a casting person.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Allison Jones]

In a comedy, basically. I do know I have value.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, of course.

[Allison Jones]

Creatively, anyway, but. But thank you for asking that, because. No, we almost get paid within the same pay range, too. I don't get paid much more than anybody else.

[Dax Shepard]

It's kind of like when you're a director of a TV show, you get the DGA minimum. It doesn't matter if you've had a great career now, if you're Burroughs, you can obviously negotiate ownership of the show to do the pilot.

[Allison Jones]

That's how they make money, right? The ownership of the show? Anybody who gets to do a pilot. Very good. Jim Burrow is so wealthy. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Allison Jones]

He got a pilot.

[Dax Shepard]

Warner bought the fucking Red Sox.

[Allison Jones]

I know, I know.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Although, again, that, too, has changed.

[Allison Jones]

What do you mean, it's changed?

[Dax Shepard]

Well, Seinfeld would sell into a cycle of syndication for $800 million. And in the streaming world, none of these shows that have been on the air for six years get sold into syndicate. People don't get rid like Mike. Sure. One more question. I said, mike, do you ever lament the fact that if you had the exact same career you had in the 80s and 90s, you would have $800 million? He goes, yeah, I think about that a lot.

[Allison Jones]

One of my very early pilots was for a very big then TV producer named James Comac who did Sanford and Son and he did all the cool shows and he had a big home in Beverly Hills that he called Casa Syndication.

[Monica Padman]

Oh my God.

[Allison Jones]

So come on. Yeah, yeah. But that's a lovely question to ask about if we practice because. No. And I wish I did.

[Dax Shepard]

No, you should.

[Allison Jones]

And I wish I had. It'll never happen.

[Dax Shepard]

It's kind of bonkers.

[Allison Jones]

Not in my lifetime.

[Monica Padman]

Easy to me.

[Allison Jones]

Or stock options. I'll take. Take stock options too. I used to say to Netflix, okay, don't pay me, but give me a mutual fund of Amazon Netflix. Put a mutual fund out and pay us that way.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Allison Jones]

And then when you get rich, we get rich.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Well, Alison, I look forward to seeing you again. We adore you. This has been so fun. I'm so glad you get to do it.

[Allison Jones]

Likewise.

[Dax Shepard]

And I hope your nerves dissipated.

[Allison Jones]

It's dissipated. I was so excited when you emailed.

[Dax Shepard]

You're definitely getting called back to producers, I can tell you in the room.

[Allison Jones]

Thank you so much.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Allison Jones]

All right, all right, be well. Thank you.

[Dax Shepard]

Stay tuned for the Fact Check.

[Monica Padman]

It's where the party's at. Yeah, but it's fine.

[Dax Shepard]

I think he's. I don't know what the word is.

[Monica Padman]

Sturdy.

[Dax Shepard]

I was going to say fighter. That's not right. I clinger like maybe he's.

[Allison Jones]

Cuz.

[Dax Shepard]

I wouldn't call a sloth a fighter. By God, can they hang upside down indefinitely?

[Monica Padman]

That's true. That is true.

[Dax Shepard]

So maybe he's sloth.

[Monica Padman]

He wants to show up for his.

[Dax Shepard]

Friends and for the holiday.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

What is that thing, Monica? Is that a person or a reindeer? Those horns are. Should be kind of informative.

[Monica Padman]

I think he's a bear. Reindeer.

[Dax Shepard]

It's just a big old rain with two big horns. Or those ears. Or hers. I shouldn't genderize.

[Monica Padman]

I think those are ears. And then he. And then some antenna horn.

[Dax Shepard]

I see some metal antennas on.

[Monica Padman]

I thought those were.

[Dax Shepard]

Is it remote control? That's our hat to put it on the very top. Made it leave frame.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. So he's just sitting on some branches.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, he's almost. He's almost summited that tree.

[Monica Padman]

He's a he.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Let's call it what it is.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. It's festive in here.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so we just. We just scrambled, right? Cause we're setting up for the holiday episode.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Which we should tell. We have a holiday episode coming up. It's a bonus episode.

[Dax Shepard]

It's a bonus extra episode on the 20th.

[Monica Padman]

That's a coming.

[Dax Shepard]

That's the 20th is when it comes.

[Monica Padman]

It will be on YouTube, though, of course.

[Dax Shepard]

It's gonna be everywhere.

[Monica Padman]

I think people should watch it on YouTube.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, big time. You're gonna have some A list. Singers dropping through. Gonna have some present reveals. Feels gonna have a lot of decor. This is only a taste of what Wobby Wob's got more stuff planned.

[Monica Padman]

Great.

[Dax Shepard]

As he does. This tree has been stolen from my daughter's room. So I had a really great meditation this morning.

[Monica Padman]

Great.

[Dax Shepard]

It's been a long time since I had a great one.

[Monica Padman]

What constitutes a great meditation?

[Dax Shepard]

I think what adds up to it is like, can I stop ruminating? Can I. I not think about our employers during my meditation? Can I achieve that goal? And so I got kind. I took a different tactic with my mantra a little bit, which was no one's. And we don't need to get this in detail. But I was just literally like, say you have to say the mantra five times and just concentrating with some limited thing. Then I could buy myself five more. All to say, when it's really great, I lose a sense of my body, which is really fun. Like, I know how I'm sitting, but I can't really feel my hands or my legs anymore. I can tell them to kind of detach from my body. And then I'll often get blasts of light. I'll start seeing, like, lights in my. There's a word for this in tm, but I don't know what it is. I heard. I've heard Howard talking about it, but I'll get some light activity in my detached state from my body. And anyways, when I came out of it, and that's why I'm telling you about it, is when it ended all by myself in my room, I said, hey, y'all, really great meditation.

[Monica Padman]

Wow. That was the first thing out.

[Dax Shepard]

It was, that's great. That's the power of tm. It opened up my creative channels enough to go, hey, y'all, really great meditation.

[Monica Padman]

That's good. That's good.

[Dax Shepard]

And then I thought, of course, need to have an app that just at the end of your thing, you hear? Hey, y'all. Really great meditation.

[Monica Padman]

That would be great. People would buy it. Are you done with your Christmas shopping?

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, man, I'm afraid to even think about that. I mean, I know I've gotten a bunch, and I've certainly forgotten people. And it's gonna.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

As much as I love, I. This is my holiday, as you know. It's my favorite. God, do I cherish every day of it. In fact, I hate that it's coming.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I hate that there'll be a day where it ends.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I know.

[Dax Shepard]

And so the girls will be like, they're in a hurry. And I'm like, no, no, guys, just pump the brakes. Breaks.

[Monica Padman]

Enjoy it.

[Dax Shepard]

Enjoy. It's so much more fun anticipating it. But the only part I can't stand about it is the test of your love for others by your. How thoughtful your gift was. And then I was thinking. I got a little cynical for a minute. I was like, they. They really got us with this racket. I mean, what an incredible racket for consumerism. It's like you have to go buy something for everyone you care of about.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

That's the rules.

[Monica Padman]

Well, it's not always the rules. You can make new rules, like secret turkey. We have to make our gifts. You don't have to go out and buy. It's just. It's just taking time to think about people.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. What if at Christmas morning, everyone sat around, you go, I thought about you. Like that was the present.

[Monica Padman]

That would be nice.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, that'd be like the Grinch who stole Christmas. Maybe Christmas doesn't come from us. Store.

[Monica Padman]

Wow. Dr. Susan.

[Dax Shepard]

Susan.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Your favorite word.

[Dax Shepard]

You know, this. This is a blast from the past. But Crosby's houseboat, which was in Sausalito harbor in real life.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

The first time we ever shot on it, it was an actual boat. And then it, of course, was in a sound stage down here, but it was originally in Sausalito. Two boats over from Crosby's boat was Dr. Seuss's boat. He had a houseboat in Sausalito, and he still had. It was still his bow. I guess it was his wife's at that point.

[Monica Padman]

His wife's still alive.

[Dax Shepard]

She was in 2000. Whatever year we filmed the pilot. Oh, Bobby Wob, give us a update on Mrs. Seuss, his second wife. Okay. Died in 2018. Yeah, that's way after we shot another blast from the past. Are you ready for this?

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Some scholarly detective armchairs. People, a lot of people know this whole thing because they came in at Covid. My endless thing about the American soldiers getting the English woman pregnant during World War II. Yeah, they found the book I'm talking about. You know who wrote it?

[Monica Padman]

Dr. Seuss?

[Dax Shepard]

Dr. Cease. Now, Margaret Mead. That's a Margaret me book. It's almost impossible to get. There's like five libraries in the country. I could tell you. Yeah, we need to tell you right friggin now. But not only did am I not insane that I imagined that whole thing. It's Margaret Mead, godmother of Anthro. It's called the American Troops in the British Community. An examination of the relationship between the American troops and the British by Margaret Mead.

[Monica Padman]

Is this the pumping the brakes thing?

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, okay, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

That her conclusion was culturally, in America, women have the brake pedal, men have the gas pedal. But in England, men have the brake pedal, women have the gas pedal. Gas pedal. You get a couple folks with a gas pedal. I had an anecdotal experience with a gal.

[Monica Padman]

You did.

[Dax Shepard]

Who I adore. Yeah. What a gift.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, yeah. And we used to ask all British people if they agreed with this and pretty much no one did.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I, I remembered as being like 50 50, but.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, okay.

[Dax Shepard]

And then there was. But in my pursuit of figuring out what the hell I had read, of course I stumbled upon a bunch of other academic papers on this same topic. Because there's this huge term war babies. There was like this. Yeah. And so one of the theories or conclusions was another element is that in America, kissing's nothing. Anyone will kiss you, kiss on a first date, whatever. But that in the steps of progression. In England in 1942, kissing was very far down the road. You'd have held hands, you'd done all this other stuff. Like I guess kissing was like, you're there.

[Allison Jones]

If you've committed to kissing, you pretty.

[Dax Shepard]

Much committed to banging. And so there was some miscommunication there where the American GIs were like, Let me put one on you. And then those gals were like, oh my God, this I think we're gonna have.

[Monica Padman]

Oh wow.

[Dax Shepard]

Sexual intercourse. This is so intimate. Not as intimate as holding hands. Okay.

[Monica Padman]

For me the most intimate is holding hands. I. I have to basically be about to marry you in order to harder to hold my hand.

[Dax Shepard]

That would be so weird to be dating. You had have made out, rolled around lots of sex. Go to grab your hand and you always pull it away. That would be freaky.

[Monica Padman]

Well, this happened. I went on a couple dates with someone and they held my hand and I. You were Ready was like, what are you doing?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Like let's do anal. But let's not do this.

[Monica Padman]

Way too intimate. Way too intimate. Intimate.

[Dax Shepard]

Where do you think that stems from?

[Monica Padman]

I guess the only real memory I have of having my handheld is as a kid from my parents.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, sure.

[Monica Padman]

Or my grandparents or someone like making sure I was safe.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

It wasn't just. No one in my family just holds hands. Oh, they don't. Yeah. I think it's gone too. But it's my life, so my parents don't hold hands or anything. So it wasn't, it wasn't a symbol of like romantic affection. It was a symbol of safety. And that's extremely intimate.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

So unless you're about to propose, you're not allowed to hold my hand.

[Dax Shepard]

Grab that hand when it's time to. I hold hands on the ride to school every morning.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

If I'm in the car with them and they're in the front seat, we're holding hands.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. I feel like you hold your, you hold Kristen's hand. You hold people's hands.

[Dax Shepard]

I hold Aaron's hand.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Hand holding is very nice.

[Monica Padman]

I think it's very nice.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Very intimate for you.

[Monica Padman]

It is. It is. Okay. Do I have my Christmas presents done? Not really. This year I didn't feel like I got the. There was a perfect gift for anyone really. So I didn't really. Really. So far I haven't got the satisfaction that I normally get in buying presents. But that's okay. You can't win every time.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. And so you, you. What I'm grateful for is you have experienced how I mostly experience buying presents. Like, I hope they like this. This will do. They'll know I thought of them.

[Monica Padman]

Well, I know everyone will like it.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure. You got good taste.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Allison Jones]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

But I, it wasn't, I wasn't like.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm.

[Monica Padman]

I'm not feeling like. I'm so excited for everyone to open their faces, see it and they're going to and it's so thoughtful. It's like not as thoughtful this year, but you know, it's okay.

[Dax Shepard]

I've already had some mix ups, so.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Use your gift guide. Everyone should.

[Monica Padman]

A lot is sold. You said a lot was sold out and I was. Thought you were just being nice. But then I went on to buy some. To send some stuff to my mom to buy me and. Because she needs, she needs a written list.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Allison Jones]

And.

[Monica Padman]

And a lot was gone.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I wanted stuff off of that gift card.

[Dax Shepard]

Virtually nothing. The only thing I could get is when I'd be on the website and then I'd start sniffing around for other items. Those glasses, Those adorable glasses, which they didn't have the first time I was at that website.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, they got back in stock.

[Dax Shepard]

Then I was there for some other business. So anyways, I sent them to my sister in law.

[Monica Padman]

Cute.

[Dax Shepard]

And they arrived and they just opened up the box. And then she sent sends me a text. I like these. I'm like, well, how could you have thought you didn't have to wait till Christmas? Well, she thought, it's not her fault. It's not her fault. Slow down. It's not. Slow down, Dax. She goes, oh, my God, I'm so. Your brother feels terrible. So what happened was the box came. My brother just opened it. He knows I didn't get him set of glasses.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So he just like got you these glasses. But yeah, but clearly it's Christmas. You want to hear the gross thing? I did too.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, What'd you do?

[Dax Shepard]

She's like, oh, I like them. And then I'm like, I need her to know they're not kids. I didn't get those at mc. I didn't get them at a fast food restaurant.

[Monica Padman]

I'm like, those?

[Dax Shepard]

I respond, yeah, those are Monica's fancy glasses. Like, I, I, I, I enlisted you. I was like, yeah, she'll, she knows if I said these are Monica's, she's gonna go like, ooh, he spoiled me.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, that's nice. That is really nice.

[Dax Shepard]

Is that store not in America?

[Monica Padman]

It's not.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, great. So this is a grievance I have. I went nuts there. And they use dhl, which I guarantee is a phenomenal service. This is no shade dhl, but I think it must work easier in Europe.

[Allison Jones]

Sure.

[Dax Shepard]

This is a ton of text and it just. Standard is a signature.

[Monica Padman]

No, I know.

[Dax Shepard]

Standard's no signature, guys. Unless I say signature. So then I. Every single item I bought from that place, which is a lot, I had to go and fill out the forms to make sure that they could be left on the porch. But after. But I have my texts from DHL. I probably have 40 texts from DHL in the last week. And every time I think, now, no, this one's just an update. It's not the consent form for the no signature. I already did that.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, boy. Yeah, the signature can get very stressful.

[Dax Shepard]

Listen to my complaints in life.

[Monica Padman]

What?

[Dax Shepard]

I just got completely ashamed of my complaints in life. Like, we live in an era where I can see something that's gorgeous and Then it'll arrive somewhere. And I'm, like, so flummoxed.

[Monica Padman]

Like, I have to sign for.

[Dax Shepard]

I had to click my phone twice.

[Allison Jones]

It's true.

[Monica Padman]

It's true. But this is what happens with technology. We just get accustomed to it being.

[Dax Shepard]

Quicker and quicker and quicker and easier and easier.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. And we want it to be. I mean, again, we've talked about this a lot, but, like, the amount of minutes my brain has spent on wishing there was teleportation and really wishing, like, thinking, like, I think that's coming and that needs to come now.

[Dax Shepard]

And, like, it's about time. Like, actually frustrated.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Where is it?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. When I try to explain to the kids that, like, yeah, I had a cassette tape. It was 60 minutes long. If I want to listen to my favorite song over and over again, I had to rewind forever. And then who knows where you land?

[Monica Padman]

Who knows?

[Dax Shepard]

You can't land on your song.

[Allison Jones]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

You're always going to be listening to the back half of a song you don't want to listen to.

[Monica Padman]

Sure. I know. Wild.

[Dax Shepard]

You're in all black today. Well.

[Monica Padman]

Well, I think these are.

[Dax Shepard]

You look great.

[Monica Padman]

Thank you.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Very smart outfit.

[Monica Padman]

Thank you. But I think these are actually dark.

[Allison Jones]

I don't want to do.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't want to do this.

[Allison Jones]

They are.

[Monica Padman]

They are.

[Dax Shepard]

Let me guess. Your shoes and socks aren't white. They're titanium white.

[Monica Padman]

I bought these at a store, and when I bought them, they were navy on the description. I think so.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

I want to be honest and say I don't really remember, but I'm pretty sure they were.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm ensnared in it. Here we go. There's no way those are navy.

[Monica Padman]

Hold on.

[Dax Shepard]

I can't sit here and have you saying those are navy. It's the same color as your shirt on the tv. It kind of looks navy.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, great.

[Dax Shepard]

Here we go. This is a constant double cross from Wobby W. Well, I don't know. In person, though.

[Allison Jones]

Well, blown up.

[Dax Shepard]

It's just kind of shimmery.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Thank you, Rob, for being honest, speaking your mind.

[Dax Shepard]

You have something on Rob. There's something. You both have great points. I think it could be both.

[Monica Padman]

Look, I will say. I know. I will say that normally I'm more. It's navy. Like, I feel very definitive about it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I'll give you that. These. A couple times I've thought, are these black? But then they're not.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. I would prefer you. You go like, these are navy. That's the kind of reaction you prefer.

[Monica Padman]

Me to say, these aren't navy than are these black?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I just think it's funny. Funny to go like you've been duped. You just go, these aren't navy. Just to yourself.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

You don't think that's funny?

[Monica Padman]

I just think it's the. Literally the exact same thing. This is like what happens on sets where there's a line written and some. The person, normally the writer says like, oh, this is the best way to say it.

[Dax Shepard]

Writer.

[Monica Padman]

Sometimes me.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, me.

[Monica Padman]

Sometimes me. Exactly. And says, well, no, this is. I've dissected that. This is the funniest way to say it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And then the actor, whoever will say the same line and then the original person is. Is like, no, no, no. Can you go back? Can you say that?

[Dax Shepard]

Well, unfortunately, that's actually the script supervisors navy job, which is so unfair because they don't give a fuck what you say.

[Monica Padman]

I don't care.

[Dax Shepard]

And they're pitted right between the actor and the writer. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

This isn't navy. And is this black?

[Dax Shepard]

Those are pretty substantively different. No, they're not. I think so. I think so.

[Monica Padman]

No, they're not.

[Dax Shepard]

Like if you had written the line. Say your line again.

[Monica Padman]

Are these black?

[Dax Shepard]

That's really good. You sold it this time. So I'll try that. I'll do one your way and then you pick in the edit.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Are these black? That's kind of a new read on it. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Is this navy?

[Dax Shepard]

It was like an acting exercise. I didn't want to do it exactly how you did.

[Monica Padman]

No, but do the navy one, though.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, didn't I? No, I was doing yours.

[Monica Padman]

Oh. But I want you to do both so I could pick in the end. My God. You told me you set this up.

[Dax Shepard]

That's lunch, everybody. We didn't get to it. I was leaving for lunch. Oh.

[Allison Jones]

Oh.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my God. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare. We are supported by Anytime Fitness. Have you been considering starting a fitness journey or if you're actively pursuing fitness goals? Anytime Fitness has everything you need. Not just for bigger muscles, but for a bigger, better life. The right equipment, easy anytime access to more than 5,000 global locations, and expert coaching to help optimize your personalized training, nutrition and recovery plan, both in person and in app.

[Monica Padman]

I got an Anytime Fitness membership for my brother one year for Christmas.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, you did?

[Monica Padman]

I did. And?

[Dax Shepard]

Well, that's a great gift.

[Monica Padman]

It was a very big hit.

[Dax Shepard]

Anytime Fitness is convenient with flexible, always open hours at thousands of locations worldwide and an app that you can use anytime, anywhere. They have all the equipment you need to reach your goals. And Anytime Fitness is focused on creating an inclusive community vibe with welcoming members who push and inspire each other to reach their goals and have fun along the way. So what are you waiting for? Get started@antime fitness.com.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

Like, the idea of that Rob leaves.

[Monica Padman]

For that was like. Oh, that was such a Rob joke.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

It wasn't a pun, though. But it was like a behavioral pun.

[Dax Shepard]

Baby. A baby pun. A baby behavioral pun.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Allison Jones]

Wow.

[Monica Padman]

That was b. That was great. Okay, wait, so back to why you're in all black.

[Dax Shepard]

No real reason. Just. That's your outfit.

[Allison Jones]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

This is just.

[Dax Shepard]

No one passed.

[Monica Padman]

No, no, no, no, no. It's. I just thought it was chic.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Yeah. Dress to impress. Dress to impress.

[Monica Padman]

Yep. I did I do that?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

People want to.

[Dax Shepard]

Why did you look down at your.

[Monica Padman]

Cuz I have a fuzz.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay. I go dress to impress, and you go.

[Monica Padman]

This.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm just repeating what. What just actually happened. We could rewind the tape.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. I look down. This is my outfit. And then I saw I have a bunch of fuzzies on.

[Dax Shepard]

Tell me I dress to impress. Even though you know where it's going.

[Monica Padman]

You dress to impress.

[Dax Shepard]

Wouldn't that be a wild for me to.

[Monica Padman]

For me to look at my album outfit and not look at my boobs? I'd have to like. Okay, fair. I feel so conscious now.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, no. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry if that was inappropriate. Anyway, anywho, I know where we were at. Really great meditation.

[Monica Padman]

That was so long ago. Yeah. Well, I'm glad you had a great meditation.

[Dax Shepard]

Good. Me too. I watched a Christmas storyline last night.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

No one will watch it with me.

[Monica Padman]

Oh.

[Dax Shepard]

I mean, the kids won't watch it with me.

[Monica Padman]

Got it.

[Dax Shepard]

And I was like, why don't they. They know. Good. Why are they acting like they don't like this movie? I really couldn't accept it. Uhhuh. And then I was watching it and they weren't there, and I was like, yeah, it's probably a little slow for them. Oh, I could admit that. And it made me very nostalgic for back when there was, like, a downtown and it was decorated because when I was a kid, Detroit still had, like, Hudson's did a big Christmas display. You could go meet Santa. Then you go to Saunders ice cream and have a cream puff. It was a whole thing. There was a. There was a parade, and then Cobal hall had this thing and you know that opening shot where they go, it's a wide. It's in Cleveland in the 50s. Higby's. You remember they had. Their department store was Higby's. And it was lit up, lit up beautifully. And really great window display with train sets. It made me so nostalgic. Nostalgic and sad.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, well, also, to them, like, the 50s is like the 1900s to us.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I don't wanna watch a movie about the 1900s.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. And you know what? Instead of like trying to get my kids to like it, what'd I do? I go, oh, my father in law was born in Cleveland and this is the era of his childhood. So I'm like, hey, do you love a Christmas Story? He's like, who doesn't? And I go, yeah, but you particularly, you grew up in Cleveland. And then he was like, is it set in Cleveland? Then he sent me this whole thing. He's like, oh my God, you're Higby's. I used to go to Higby's every. And then he had a whole story about Higby's.

[Monica Padman]

That's cute.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

So then you just text it throughout.

[Dax Shepard]

The whole movie because it's slow and boring. It's not a good movie. No, it's so good. And Ralphie, if anyone's gonna. Has yet to watch it and they're still gonna watch it. What? I want people to dial. In most specific, the cutest thing he does. Peter Billingsley, I. E. Ralphie, his tongue is so busy in that movie. And it is one of the cutest things I've ever seen. Like when he's doing the Dakota Ring and he's like, eh, eh. And they didn't. They know it too. Because all of a sudden you just go to an extreme close up of his little mouth with that little tongue darting around. And anytime he's reading out loud or he's thinking he's in front of his class, he's like having this fantasy that his teacher loved his essay and she's on the chalkboard, right? A plus, eight plus. And they go to him and he's just wistfully thinking of this and he's like his little tongue is darting around his. Oh, is it cute?

[Monica Padman]

Acting used to be so easy. All you had to do move your tongue around, darted around and it was considered good acting.

[Dax Shepard]

No, he's. He's impossibly good for a nine year old in that movie. It's crazy. How good he is. But just anytime he's thinking the shepherds, we stick our tongue out when we're concentrating really hard. You've not noticed that? I don't have it quite as bad as my dad and my brother and my uncle. But, yeah, if I'm really going after something, my tongue comes out. We all do it. Yeah. So his just seem like the thing he does when he's, like, distracted.

[Monica Padman]

Hold on. Do a roll. Do it. Do it as if you're. Yeah, I want to see it.

[Dax Shepard]

This would be out all the time.

[Monica Padman]

It's a little out. Yeah.

[Allison Jones]

Oh, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Like, I'm expressing like. Like I. I want to.

[Monica Padman]

I guess I have seen that face.

[Dax Shepard]

It's kind of become an inappropriate fact check. And I want to apologize to the Christmas listeners. Why? Because of my previous thing about you going like this, and then now I'm just going like, like it look. All of a sudden that look kind of inappropriate, and I just want to clean it up for the holidays.

[Monica Padman]

Since when do you want to clean it up?

[Dax Shepard]

It's the holidays.

[Monica Padman]

The holidays are sexy. What are you talking about? People love to have. For singles and. For people and couples. They have sex by the fire and stuff.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, it's great for singles and couples, not people with children. It's all about children for us.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, but for even. Right. People with children, like, don't they still have sex by the fire?

[Dax Shepard]

Could you have. Your days of having sex by the fire are completely over the day your first kid arrives. What about if there's your parents? You can't run the.

[Monica Padman]

Why not?

[Dax Shepard]

On the island, in the kitchen.

[Monica Padman]

Why not?

[Dax Shepard]

No way. Robert, you and Natalie fish in the open house at all? No, never.

[Monica Padman]

But do you have. Do you have a fireplace?

[Dax Shepard]

We do.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, well, you should. In front of it.

[Dax Shepard]

Christmas. Do you ever jerk off in front of that fireplace with no one's home? You know the thing I hate that I can't not think of, And I don't know if this is urban legend or. Or real, but allegedly rumors, Urban legend. Little boy who puts his tongue on the pole, gets it stuck to the pole. He did a porno when he grew up.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, no.

[Dax Shepard]

And I know that.

[Monica Padman]

I think it's cause of that.

[Dax Shepard]

No, I don't think it's cause of that, but.

[Monica Padman]

Well, it might be.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't like that. I'm watching this movie and all I can think of is this little boy grows up and does a porno. Which, by the way, it's fine if you do pornos. I don't even. I don't even know why it's. I don't care if you've done a porno.

[Monica Padman]

I'm kind of curious why it bumps up.

[Dax Shepard]

But I don't think when people go into. Into movie acting, their goal is to then graduate to pornos. I think you probably come out here to do movies. You start in pornos and maybe you graduate.

[Monica Padman]

Well, that's the whole thing. When your parents are afraid you're going to move to Hollywood and then become a porn actor.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

That's like the whole thing. Don't go become. You're going to get sucked into porn.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. Unless it's a dad and a son. He's like, boy, I hope you find your way over to porn. Well, maybe this.

[Monica Padman]

Maybe it was just following his dad's dream.

[Dax Shepard]

Let me ask you this now. This one I know is real. Okay, Double check, Rob, so I don't get sued, but I do believe Screech was in an adult film.

[Monica Padman]

Yes, I was about to say that he was.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. And does it impact when you're watching Saved by the Bell?

[Monica Padman]

Are you thinking, like, I haven't watched it since I learned that information, but yes. I can't, like, see a picture and not think that.

[Dax Shepard]

That he did a porno.

[Monica Padman]

But I also, I. It's more than just like, oh, he did a porno. It feels dark. There's something that feels dark about again.

[Dax Shepard]

Like it's not what they were wanting or aiming to do and that maybe they were in financial straits and then people knew that they would be a draw. It doesn't. It sounds like someone may be compromised. Well, he. He put it out. He put out a sex tape called Screeched. Saved by the Smell. Saved by the Smell?

[Allison Jones]

Yep.

[Dax Shepard]

What a classy title. It's. I'm lucky I never ended up in one. I mean, let's be honest. I was unemployed for nine years.

[Monica Padman]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

And I was, you know, I was a party animal. I could have ended up in one. And boy, God, would you really have. I mean, I don't know. You're somewhere. You're drunk, you start, you. You meet like six porn stars at a thing. Everyone's having fun.

[Monica Padman]

I see you hanging out, no money.

[Dax Shepard]

You like, like having sex?

[Monica Padman]

No. You'd have sex with them, but you wouldn't have them film on camera.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm just saying that I'm. I'm lucky that never happened is what I'm saying.

[Monica Padman]

Have you ever filmed yourself having sex?

[Dax Shepard]

How dare you ask that question?

[Monica Padman]

Why.

[Dax Shepard]

Why have I ever filmed my Do. Of course they do.

[Monica Padman]

Or not. Or has. Has. Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

I had to really think about that.

[Monica Padman]

I'm surprised.

[Dax Shepard]

I think I've run some video. Video on. You know. But I don't want to say anything because it's not. I don't want to say who.

[Monica Padman]

We're not saying who.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. But I think I've run some video on some nudity in my day.

[Monica Padman]

Wait, what's the difference? This is like the.

[Dax Shepard]

I'll tell you the difference. Like, did I ever set up a tripod?

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

And then.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, no, I didn't do that. What is running some video on nudity. What's that look like?

[Dax Shepard]

Only you got your video camera out and you're, like, shooting in your thing, and then your girlfriend's naked. You film her because you want to look at it later at some point.

[Monica Padman]

It's not the act.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, okay. Okay. I mean, I don't have any problem with people making a sex tape.

[Dax Shepard]

I think that's awesome.

[Monica Padman]

They're having fun having sex by the fire. The holidays. Like most couples do.

[Dax Shepard]

Like most married couples with a house full of children do.

[Monica Padman]

All right, well, this is for Allison Jones. And this is our last episode of the year. I mean, sort of. We have a smorgasbord of offerings. No, no, no. We do, but this is our last real episode. Then we have an Armchair Anonymous coming out on Friday. And then we have our holiday special.

[Dax Shepard]

This is our last new interview of the year. How about that?

[Monica Padman]

Okay. And it was a great year.

[Dax Shepard]

It was a great year.

[Monica Padman]

Fantastic year.

[Dax Shepard]

Closed really strong.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Yeah. And we. One after another, we added this location. That was a big deal. That was scary. That was a big change. A big challenge.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And we're embracing it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

It's nice.

[Dax Shepard]

I like how it's going.

[Monica Padman]

2024. Oh, my gosh. I can't believe I forgot to say this. Do you know that the pantone color of the year was announced?

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so I saw a comment yesterday.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

That was like, when is Monica going to talk about pan? They were, like, nervous and worried.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. I'm so sorry it's taken me this long.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Okay. What's.

[Monica Padman]

But do you know what it is? No. Close.

[Dax Shepard]

What?

[Monica Padman]

It's called mocha mousse, which is basically mocha mouse, which is basically brown mouse.

[Dax Shepard]

Is it the color of your skin?

[Monica Padman]

It's brown.

[Dax Shepard]

There's a lot of shades of brown.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, fine.

[Dax Shepard]

No, hold up the pantone color to your cheek.

[Monica Padman]

Cheeks. It's not really. But. But.

[Dax Shepard]

No, that one's a little Modest Moose. What's it called?

[Monica Padman]

It's called Mocha Moose. Mocha Mocha Moose.

[Dax Shepard]

Mocha Moose. It's not as dark as yours, so I'm doing tongue. This is. This is a holidays and boppy D bop.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. But it's. It's a little more pink.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

But that's a great sign that we're.

[Dax Shepard]

Going into the browns with Pantone.

[Monica Padman]

That.

[Dax Shepard]

That they.

[Monica Padman]

Brown mouse.

[Dax Shepard]

Brown mouse, Brown.

[Monica Padman]

That's a good omen.

[Dax Shepard]

That is a good omen. It's gonna be an incredible year.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I think so. For all of the people who listen, it's gonna be a great year.

[Dax Shepard]

What do you do with that color? Are you ordering items now in that color? Like, do you adjust anything in your life?

[Monica Padman]

Yes, that's the whole. You know, it's my background on my phone.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. So that's. That's one thing to do. That's an actionable step.

[Monica Padman]

That's the whole. That's what I do.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. There's nothing else. It's not like when they announce this color. Are there collaborations where now different companies. You can order the Pantone.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, sometimes Moose. Mocha Moose. Moose Knuckle, Brown Mouse. They'll do some collabs sometimes. There's often a mug. I might get that this year.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And yeah. So I make the background of my phone the color.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you know what I would call that color? And again, I know this is xenophobic. Ah, it's not really. But nude. That color just looks like nude to me. Like nude. The. Before they got wise to. That's not what everyone looks like nude. But nude undergarments. Do you know what I'm talking about? It's almost like a peach.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, that's more peach. That's more what this year's was.

[Dax Shepard]

That's this year. That's not Moose knuckle. Oh, I thought you already had it.

[Monica Padman]

No, I don't get to put it on until January 1st.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, okay, okay. All right. They have a bunch of collabs already. They have Motorola phone. They have Joybird, Libratone, headphones, Pantone and all those brands. Oh, wow.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God. Do they have the mug?

[Dax Shepard]

They have a. They have a million things, so. Yeah, probably so. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, great. Oh, I wish they made an iPhone case in it.

[Dax Shepard]

See, that's exactly what I'm talking about.

[Monica Padman]

Like, that would be great because then the wallpaper, everything would be brown.

[Allison Jones]

Mouth.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Monica Padman]

This is this year's. That's more nude to me. I mean, the color.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, the One you're holding up looks very nude.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. And the mocha mousse is nude for a brown person. Light brown person.

[Dax Shepard]

Light brown person. Colorism. See, even. It's even impressive.

[Monica Padman]

Whatever. I embrace this as me.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. That. Yeah. Wait, hold that up again. Now it looks darker. Oh, this is much what has happened. Are you sure? I think you might have held up the paint.

[Monica Padman]

I promise it's because when you zoom in it, for some reason, it looks.

[Dax Shepard]

Something goes away. Zoom out. It's like 10 shades darker. That's your almost your skin color.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

That's great.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, Two facts. One, one, she got her business degree for $750 a trimester at UCLA. Now, I made a mistake when I checked this fact before.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

When I type in now, UCLA business degree cost, it says the total cost of the MBA program is $128,000 per year, including tuition and living expenses. The tuition is $78,000 per. Per year.

[Dax Shepard]

Could it have quadrupled since the last time you Googled it?

[Monica Padman]

I must have. It must have been not the MBA program that I looked at. It must have been regular tuition. Because I googled this now, like eight times. Because I was also confused. That's wild.

[Dax Shepard]

All right, let's just say the last time you looked at it up, it was 22 grand a year.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. So obviously I looked up the wrong thing. Yeah. So I don't know.

[Dax Shepard]

Who knows? But I just go there and then find out. When they get. When you get the bill, tell us.

[Monica Padman]

All right, and then why are they called sides in acting? Sides refers to a specific part of a script given to actors for auditions. Because historically, actors would only receive their own lines from a scene, essentially just their side of the dialogue, which helped protect the full script from being copied or shared with competitors, especially during Shakespeare's time when printing was limited. Hence the term sides. We also discovered that he's married. His wife's name is Anne Hathaway.

[Dax Shepard]

That's crazy. Still adjusting to that info.

[Monica Padman]

That is shocking. And I'm. I'm surprised that I didn't know that.

[Dax Shepard]

Because you're an Anne Hathaway superfan?

[Monica Padman]

No, because I took a lot of. I had to take a lot of Shakespeare.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. From your Shakespearean knowledge, I should have known that.

[Monica Padman]

Maybe I did and I blocked it. I don't know. But Anne Hathaway, well, she is a style icon.

[Dax Shepard]

We need to interview her to get to the bottom of whether or not that was intentional or not.

[Monica Padman]

I agree. I agree.

[Allison Jones]

I agree.

[Dax Shepard]

It would kind of confirm the story I've made up about her in my head.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

I feel like she was just born to be an actor.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

Like, I feel like she's probably been acting since she was 1 years old.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. I mean, Princess Diaries, she was just two years old.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Is that her real age? No, I didn't see it.

[Monica Padman]

No. But she was young.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Not as young as Pepsi Girl.

[Dax Shepard]

No.

[Monica Padman]

I would love to interview her and ask her that.

[Dax Shepard]

Me too.

[Allison Jones]

Great.

[Dax Shepard]

Please, Anne. Even if the interview's 30 seconds and you tell us whether that was intentional or not, we'll take what we can get.

[Monica Padman]

Or if she wants to come in as Anne Hathaway, Shakespeare's wife, I'll dress.

[Dax Shepard]

Up as Bill Shakespeare.

[Monica Padman]

That would be cool.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Who. Who could I be? They didn't. I don't think they have many brown. I will dress up as Julia. A piece of poop on the floor.

[Dax Shepard]

What?

[Monica Padman]

Because. Because brown. They didn't have very many brown people.

[Dax Shepard]

You are so.

[Monica Padman]

I need to be.

[Dax Shepard]

You are so mean to people of color. And I'm here to be an advocate and an ally.

[Monica Padman]

I. We're trying to be true to the times.

[Dax Shepard]

I am very disappointed.

[Monica Padman]

I know who I'll be. A butler.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Chambermaid.

[Monica Padman]

Cuz they had Indian servants.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, they did.

[Monica Padman]

I think. I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure. Back then England. Because they owned Indian. Listen, I'll be a poop.

[Dax Shepard]

No, no, no.

[Allison Jones]

Piece of poop.

[Dax Shepard]

No, you'll be a moose knuckle. Panto Moose knuckle.

[Monica Padman]

Wow. All right. Well, we aren't gonna do this again until I guess the holiday special, but that'll be a little different.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And then next year, 2025, 50th year.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh my. So many good things. Very even. Age number for me. I love that.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Brown mouse.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

For you.

[Monica Padman]

And 2025 feels really sharp.

[Dax Shepard]

It's a quarter of a century.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's something about you being 50 and it being 25, that's nice.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Because I was born in 75. Works out perfectly.

[Monica Padman]

25, 50, 75.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. All quarters.

[Monica Padman]

You should be more excited about that. All right.

[Dax Shepard]

All right.

[Monica Padman]

Love you.

[Dax Shepard]

Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short [e-mail] survey. Hello, ladies. And germs. Boys and girls, the Grinch is back again to ruin your Christmas season with Tis the Grinch Holiday Podcast. After last year, he's learned a thing or two about hosting, and he's ready to rant against Christmas cheer and roast his celebrity guests like chestnuts on an open fire.

[Monica Padman]

Fire.

[Dax Shepard]

You can listen with the whole family as guest stars like Jon Hamm, Brittany Broski, and Danny DeVito try to persuade the mean old Grinch that there's a lot to love about the insufferable holiday season. But that's not all. Somebody stole all the children of Whoville's letters to Santa, and everybody thinks the Grinch is responsible. It's a real Whoville whodunit. Can Cindy Lou and Max help clear the Grinch's name? Grab your hot cocoa and cozy slippers to to find out, follow Tis the Grinch Holiday Podcast on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Unlock weekly Christmas mystery bonus content and listen to every episode ad free by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery App, Spotify or Apple Podcasts.