Armchair Anonymous: Cults II

Summary

Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard: Armchair Anonymous – Cults II

Episode Summary

In the second installment of “Armchair Anonymous,” host Dax Shepard delves deep into the harrowing experiences of individuals who have escaped cults. Joined by co-host Mon Padman and guests Taj and Francesca, the episode unpacks the intricate dynamics of cult recruitment, control mechanisms, and the arduous journey to reclaim personal freedom and identity.

---

Introduction

The episode begins with Dax Shepard welcoming listeners to “Armchair Anonymous,” a segment dedicated to unraveling the complexities of cults and their impact on individuals’ lives. Mon Padman joins him as they set the stage for a candid exploration of cult dynamics.

Notable Quote:

• Dax Shepard [00:40]: "Today is part two of one of our favorite prompts ever: Escaping a cult."

---

Taj’s Experience with Zen Master Rama

Taj shares her unsettling experience with a cult led by a charismatic figure she refers to as Zen Master Rama, whose real name was Dr. Frederick Lenz. Taj recounts how she was drawn into the group through meditation classes and free vegetarian dinners, only to find herself entangled in manipulative and abusive practices.

Key Points:

• Recruitment Tactics: Free vegetarian dinners and meditation sessions used to attract vulnerable individuals.
• Cult Leader’s Charisma: Zen Master Rama exhibited supernatural claims, such as levitation and weather control, captivating his followers.
• Control Mechanisms: Imprisoning members for not adhering to the cult’s doctrines, arranged marriages, and fear-based tactics.
• Escape Story: Taj ingeniously faked appendicitis to flee the cult, highlighting the difficulty of leaving such tightly controlled environments.

Notable Quotes:

• Taj [07:23]: "He believed he was a reincarnation of St. Thomas More and Indian teachers and all kinds of people."
• Dax Shepard [10:36]: "Oh, okay. So he had a dark side."

---

Francesca’s Journey Out of Gospel Outreach

Francesca provides a poignant account of her upbringing within the Gospel Outreach, a Christian cult that enforced strict behavioral codes, communal living, and arranged marriages. Her narrative underscores the psychological and emotional toll of growing up in such an environment.

Key Points:

• Strict Doctrine: Emphasis on abstinence, communal chores, and minimalistic living to align closely with biblical scripture.
• Manipulative Practices: Daily meetings involving verbal attacks, enforced modesty, and isolation from the outside world.
• Trauma and Escape: Francesca's family’s decision to leave the cult led to emotional devastation and her mother's subsequent suicide, highlighting the severe personal costs of exiting such groups.
• Reintegration Challenges: Struggles with self-identity, relationships, and overcoming the ingrained belief systems imposed by the cult.

Notable Quotes:

• Francesca [17:04]: "Our leader, Georgia and Betty Giftakis, are our Guiding Light. They were divinely inspired as far as we were concerned."
• Dax Shepard [21:06]: "Mental health awareness is growing, but there's still progress to be made."

---

Common Patterns in Cult Behavior

Throughout the episode, Dax and Mon identify recurring themes and tactics employed by cults to maintain control over their members. These include:

• Manipulative Recruitment: Offering seemingly benign activities (like vegetarian dinners or meditation) to lure individuals.
• Charismatic Leadership: Leaders who present themselves as divinely inspired or possessing extraordinary abilities.
• Isolation: Encouraging or enforcing separation from family, friends, and external support systems.
• Fear and Intimidation: Utilizing threats, whether overt or subtle, to suppress dissent and maintain obedience.
• Control of Information: Limiting access to external information and fostering an environment where questioning the leader is taboo.

Notable Quotes:

• Mon Padman [06:30]: "The arranged marriage piece is interesting that that's come up multiple times."
• Dax Shepard [66:00]: "They all do almost the same thing."

---

Insights and Conclusions

The episode concludes with reflections on the resilience of survivors and the psychological barriers they face when leaving cults. Dax emphasizes the importance of recognizing the signs of cult behavior in everyday settings, such as book clubs or social groups, to prevent potential manipulation.

Key Takeaways:

• Awareness: Understanding the subtle signs of cult behaviors can empower individuals to make informed decisions.
• Support Systems: Rebuilding life post-cult requires robust support networks and often professional help to overcome trauma.
• Personal Growth: Survivors demonstrate immense strength in reclaiming their identities and establishing independence from their former affiliations.

Notable Quotes:

• Francesca [65:42]: "Just know that they're creating chaos to keep you there."
• Dax Shepard [66:03]: "The beating you down, the group criticism you have. Any of these things are happening in your book club. You know, maybe the book club is a maybe."

---

Closing Thoughts

“Armchair Anonymous: Cults II” offers a compelling and empathetic exploration of the dark underbelly of cults. Through intimate personal stories and thoughtful analysis, Dax Shepard and his guests shed light on the mechanisms of control and the arduous path to liberation. This episode serves as both a cautionary tale and a beacon of hope for those seeking to escape manipulative and oppressive environments.

---

Notable Quotes Overview:

1. Dax Shepard [00:40]: "Today is part two of one of our favorite prompts ever: Escaping a cult."
2. Taj [07:23]: "He believed he was a reincarnation of St. Thomas More and Indian teachers and all kinds of people."
3. Dax Shepard [10:36]: "Oh, okay. So he had a dark side."
4. Francesca [17:04]: "Our leader, Georgia and Betty Giftakis, are our Guiding Light. They were divinely inspired as far as we were concerned."
5. Dax Shepard [21:06]: "Mental health awareness is growing, but there's still progress to be made."
6. Mon Padman [06:30]: "The arranged marriage piece is interesting that that's come up multiple times."
7. Dax Shepard [66:00]: "They all do almost the same thing."
8. Francesca [65:42]: "Just know that they're creating chaos to keep you there."
9. Dax Shepard [66:03]: "The beating you down, the group criticism you have. Any of these things are happening in your book club. You know, maybe the book club is a maybe."

---

Further Listening

For those intrigued by the stories shared in this episode, it’s recommended to follow “Armchair Expert” on the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or other podcast platforms to stay updated with future episodes that continue to explore the intricate facets of human behavior and resilience.

Transcript

[Dax Shepard]

Wondry plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now. Join Wondry plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Anonymous. I'm Dan Shepard. I'm joined by Mon Padman.

[Mon Padman]

Hi. You're trying it out. It doesn't sound right on you.

[Dax Shepard]

Not when you do first and last name. Mon Padman. That sounds like Mansoor Padman, which is pretty cool.

[Mon Padman]

Yeah, that is cool.

[Dax Shepard]

Maybe it is good. Monty Padman. That sounds crazy too. These nicknames when they're in conjunction with your full name maybe don't work.

[Mon Padman]

Okay, that's fine. Yeah, like D.D. shepherd.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, Dee Dee Shepherd. That's. That sounds fun. Today is part two of one of our favorite prompts ever. Escaping a cult.

[Mon Padman]

This is tough. It's tough out there. But you do. We learned a lot. There's some real through lines.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh yeah. There's consistencies.

[Mon Padman]

Yeah. And it's good to know them.

[Dax Shepard]

Some patterns and maybe if you've recognized that one of these things is happening in your life.

[Mon Padman]

And if you're a vegetarian, you're in a cult.

[Dax Shepard]

If you get invited to a vegetarian meal, you're dust. No, but I will say it made me think there's a lot more than I'm aware of. I just stupidly assume I'll see a doc about them if they're real. It makes me think you're bumping into people all the time that probably were raised in some of these fringy religious tradition. Again, cults. Oh, I am. I'm pussyfooting around about it. Please Enjoy Cults Part 2. We are supported by Macy's. Mother's Day is next month. Devoted armchairs know that I adore and love my mom. My sweet, sweet mother. Her episode's one of our most popular ever and we have to get her back on the show soon. So it's important to make moms feel like the stars they are on Mother's Day. But moms can be so hard to shop for because it can seem like they already have everything they need. Need. Not true. If you're not sure what to get your mom this year, Macy's is a one stop shop to find a gift that will make your mom smile. Macy's has a great selection of clothing. No matter your mom's style, they've got tons of options that'll look great on her from brands like Calvin Klein, Levi's and Charter Club. And if your mom's into cooking, Macy's has state of the art kitchen appliances from Cuisinart. All clad and more that will upgrade the recipes she's been wanting to try. Another favorite. Buy Mom. Something luxe that she might not think to buy herself. Maybe a signature. Her perfume. That's what I love getting my mom. Designer cosmetics or even some new jewelry.

[Mon Padman]

I'm going the cooking route this year. I hope she doesn't listen. She doesn't listen to this, so that's fine. But they have such good products.

[Dax Shepard]

I love all clap.

[Mon Padman]

Me too.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Shop now@macy's.com or in store. We are supported by Claude, the AI assistant. That just feels different, you know? We're curious about the old artificial intelligence here on the pod. We are curious and we always want to give our arm cherries. The if you know, you know, tips.

[Mon Padman]

We sure do.

[Dax Shepard]

So they need to meet our new pal, Claude. While other AIs sound like robots, Claude just gets it with the emotional intelligence. Whether I'm researching guests or refining my latest meal plan to get Brad Pitt's abs or looking for the best dating advice to give Monica, Claude is the fact checker in your pocket while you're in the arm.

[Mon Padman]

Well, that's exciting for us. I like having an extra companion.

[Dax Shepard]

Welcome to the team, Claude. You can try Claude for free [e-mail]. that's C-L-A-U-D-E.com. hard times come and go Good times take them slow My life, I had them both Remember one thing you gotta know Imma keep on shining Hi, is this Taj?

[Taj]

Yes. It's so good to meet you guys.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wonderful to meet you. You're my first Taj. Is this a family name?

[Taj]

My real name is Amy.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh.

[Taj]

I have a very common last name. And about 10 years ago, I decided, you know, there's too many in the world. So I'm just gonna pick a different name.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, I love this. You rebrand it.

[Taj]

My brother and I both have done this.

[Dax Shepard]

And did the people around you immediately accept it or did you have people that were still calling you Cassius Clay?

[Taj]

Well, I live Portland, Oregon, where everybody changes their name.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, that's a great place to change your name.

[Taj]

But my mom, who at the time was still living in New Jersey, she has passed since then. She freaked out because she was a therapist and the only person that she knew who had changed their name was a schizophrenic patient.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay.

[Mon Padman]

So she thought that was a bad omen.

[Taj]

She thought that her kids were going cuckoo over here. You know, the topic I would love to briefly touch on with you, Dax, is improv.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, yes, please.

[Taj]

So I used to be painfully shy, and that comes out in the story because it happened just after college. And improv has really changed my life. And it's not that I was ever interested in being in front of the camera, but it's a mindfulness practice and also for helping you be a better human. So I just wondered if you had ever come across that approach to improv.

[Dax Shepard]

I want to hear about yours. So someone taught you, and it was taught with the intention of the life practice more than a pursuit.

[Taj]

I actually came across that myself when I was living in Flagstaff. My next door neighbor was a meditation teacher. I was a lapsed meditator. And you know that old Reese's commercial where two people bump into each other, one has peanut butter and one has chocolate?

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Taj]

So it was like, you got meditation in my improv? No, you got improv in my meditation. So during the pandemic, we started teaching mindful improv and meditation using improv games.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, now tell me why you think that's a good overlap right out of the gates. I would go like, presence is required listening.

[Taj]

Yeah. And you have to let go of your idea because let's say you start a scene with somebody and you think you're in a barn, and they say, nurse, hand me the scalpel. Something like that. And you have to just let go right away, or else it's gonna be like tug of war and just be present with what is and let go of ego. And the less you try to be funny. I know you guys know if you're trying to put in the crazy things, it doesn't work.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, there's a spirit of harmony and collaboration. It doesn't work. Someone's steamrolling. Okay, I like that. All right. Alas, this episode, though, is about cults.

[Mon Padman]

I hope it's not an improv call.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, but as we've already acknowledged, they are cults.

[Mon Padman]

They can be cultee. I wouldn't call them cults.

[Taj]

My experience was not with an improv cult. So this takes place in 94, when I was in my mid-20s. I was vulnerable to this because I had just gotten out of college a couple years before. I was just lost. I had been really successful in the structure of college. I was so shy. I just had no idea how the world worked. So I was looking for something to latch onto. So one day I saw a sign at a bookstore saying they were having a meditation class. And I went, and it Was in this little room above the bookstore. And it turned out I was the only student. It was me and this teacher. We did the meditation for a bit, and then he turned into my therapist for that day. And that was very attractive. Someone would listen to me. And he told me about his teacher who was gonna be giving this free vegetarian dinner at a fancy restaurant in downtown Boston.

[Mon Padman]

They always get you with the vegetarian dinner. We had somebody else on talking about this.

[Dax Shepard]

If someone offers you a vegetarian dinner, just run. Well, maybe not run. Just kidding.

[Mon Padman]

Oh, you run.

[Taj]

He said his teacher was named Ra to describe Rama. A little bit. He's this tall guy with a Jew fro, as we say in my background. Blondish hair, very kind of awkward, but also very, very confident. That pulls people in.

[Dax Shepard]

But not Indian, because you said his name was.

[Taj]

Well, his chosen name was Rama. And I think I can share the real name because it's all over the Internet. The story has come out about him. It was Dr. Frederick Lenz. I don't know if you guys have ever heard of him.

[Dax Shepard]

No. But a doctor.

[Taj]

He had a PhD in literature, and then he chose from then on to call himself Doct. Which is already a little shady.

[Mon Padman]

Sure.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. So he's going by this other name. He's not Indian. I thought Indian. I heard the name and I thought meditation. But no.

[Taj]

He believed he was a reincarnation of St. Thomas More and Indian teachers and all kinds of people. It's never like, I'm the reincarnation of a field worker.

[Mon Padman]

Right.

[Taj]

I went and he gave a little talk. He was very into Carlos Castaneda, and he wanted us to read those books.

[Dax Shepard]

How many folks were at this initial free vegetarian dinner?

[Taj]

I'd say a hundred.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay. There's some critical mass. If you show up somewhere to see a spiritual guide and there's three people, you're like, well, this guy's bunk. A hundred. You're like, okay.

[Mon Padman]

Can be that crazy if all these people.

[Dax Shepard]

That's right. If you are starting a call, stock it with some extras. Even if you don't have that many followers. Maybe get some hourly folks to build out the audience.

[Taj]

The thing that grabbed me was we meditated with him, and he was sitting on a little stage in front of everyone, and he asked us to keep our eyes open and look at him while we were meditating. When we started meditating with him, I started almost immediately seeing light coming out of him. And his. His face started morphing into an old man and then a child and then a woman. And I would Close my eyes and try and clear my vision. And it just kept happening. And I thought, wow, there's something going on.

[Dax Shepard]

That's quite a thing to observe. Are you not terrified?

[Taj]

It was subtle, almost like you're having.

[Dax Shepard]

A dream or if you're on shrooms or something.

[Mon Padman]

Oh, exactly. That's what I was about to say. Oh, no. Oh, no.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, hold on.

[Taj]

But, you know, I could clear it if I blinked my eyes. He was normal again. So I thought, you know, this is part of channeling other entities. It's not like he's actually changing into someone else. So it wasn't terrifying. It was more intriguing to me. This senior student of his that had invited me to that dinner said that there was going to be this 10 day meditation retreat coming up. And it sort of felt like it was an audition to be part of the cult in a way. They wanted people to have headshots and full body, especially women, to have pictures to submit as part of the application, which you have to wonder what those are for sure. But I decided to go against better judgment and we went to this summer camp that they had rented for the 10 days. A lot of the time he wasn't there. It was his senior students leading meditation sessions and talking about Zen Master Rama, that's the full name he went by. And they said that they had seen him levitate and teleport and projecting light from his hands. And apparently if anyone criticized him, if he had any enemies, he could cause them to get cancer or be in a major car accident.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay. So he had a dark side.

[Taj]

Yes, very much. He also claimed to control the weather and pass through alternate dimensions and create and destroy universes. And I was just starting to get very skeptical at this point. We're on day three, four, and I'm like, I think I need to get out of here.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah.

[Taj]

And it did not feel like a place where you could just say, okay, bye. I'm not into this. They were kind of, you are staying for the 10 days you committed to this, no matter what. So he had shown up for one evening that he's talking about Kundalini. The image is this snake that's curled up at the base of each person's spine. And when you raise the Kundalini energy, that snake is supposed to come up. So that night I had a dream that the Kundalini snake was not inside me, but was wrapping around me and trying to just kill me. And I woke up with terrible cramps. And I decided to kind of embellish the cramps into. I think that my appendix. I have to get to a hospital. So I finally got them to call an ambulance, get me out of there. From which I called my family and just went away from this whole thing. But I forgot to mention, he always would talk about his dog Vayu. And apparently he believed that he was one of 12 enlightened beings on the planet. And Vayu was another one of the 12.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so two of the 12 were accounted for between he and Vayu.

[Taj]

Yeah. And he believed that Vayu was the reincarnation of his spiritual teacher.

[Mon Padman]

I'm glad he didn't try to heal you.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I'm sure that was coming.

[Mon Padman]

No, I mean, like with the appendicitis.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh. Oh, right.

[Taj]

Well, he was not actually present. He had just come in for a talk and jetted off. He had all these mansions and lots of cars. He had a whole collection of Porsches and Mercedes and Range Rovers. And his senior students got together for his birthday and bought him a Porsche. They claimed to have memory of technology from Atlantis.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Taj]

And Zen Master Rama said his form of Buddhism was what he called materialistic Buddhism.

[Dax Shepard]

That's the kind we need to practice. Yeah, yeah.

[Taj]

Where it's okay to make a pile of money because that is a reflection of your spiritual progress.

[Dax Shepard]

Once you left, did you keep following this person and what was happening?

[Taj]

A number of years later, I read an article about how he died. But I did want to mention one thing I did see personally, which was that evening that he showed up, somebody had asked him if he would be able to drink a whole bottle of hot sauce without any physical manifestation. You know how you would turn red and you would be in pain? So he did that. No big deal. So the guy had something, but I wouldn't say it was for the good of all. Yeah, but his death really nailed that. This was not a Zane person because his dog had passed away. And apparently Zen Master Rama could not handle being in the world without this dog.

[Dax Shepard]

His mast.

[Taj]

So he committed suicide wearing a Versace suit and the dog's collar and tags. He was found in the water by one of his mansions, and he had over 150 Valium in his system. And he made a suicide pact with one of his followers, who happened to be a former model. He had sort of a harem going.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. Yep. They're gonna have a harem. They're gonna have some nice cars.

[Mon Padman]

Oh, it's so classic. So do we think he did drug you guys?

[Taj]

I think it's hypnosis.

[Dax Shepard]

You hadn't eaten the Vegetarian meal prior to seeing all that, or had you?

[Taj]

We had actually, so there's always that possibility. But there were other times where I hadn't eaten something and was sitting in some of the students presents and felt some interesting stuff.

[Mon Padman]

Wow. Wild.

[Dax Shepard]

Wow. Did you know anyone that stuck with that?

[Taj]

No, I just got out of it and stayed away. There's a quote from a documentary I saw about people who win the Powerball that I think really fits with this kind of person. In the quote, it's about winning the lottery, but I think it's. If you attain a lot of money and a lot of power, it's like pouring miracle grow on your character flaws.

[Mon Padman]

Ooh, yeah, that's good. That's really good.

[Dax Shepard]

Those lottery documentaries fascinate the hell out of me. I've seen a couple talk about be careful what you wish for. There's almost no good stories in those.

[Taj]

In the one that I saw years ago, it's called Lucky, there are some good stories and some negatives.

[Mon Padman]

Yeah. It can't all be bad.

[Dax Shepard]

No, I shouldn't say that. There's just an incredibly high rate of people filing for bankruptcy. There's a lot of stress with their family.

[Mon Padman]

Yeah. A lot of suicide.

[Dax Shepard]

It upticks a lot of things.

[Taj]

I also have a joke for you guys if you want. A really bad taste joke about cults.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, yeah, yeah. We love bad taste jokes.

[Taj]

Why aren't there very many popular jokes about Jonestown?

[Mon Padman]

I think it must have to do with Kool Aid, but I don't know.

[Dax Shepard]

What is it?

[Taj]

The punch lines are too long.

[Mon Padman]

I don't get it.

[Dax Shepard]

Standing in line for the punch.

[Kristin]

Oh, oh.

[Taj]

Very literal. Terrible.

[Dax Shepard]

It's a pun. Well, Taj, this has been a delight meeting you and hearing your story.

[Taj]

I love you guys. Thank you.

[Dax Shepard]

Thank you.

[Francesca]

Bye.

[Dax Shepard]

All right, take care.

[Kristin]

Bye.

[Mon Padman]

As someone who saw Grand Lady Hands. Grandma Hands.

[Taj]

Yeah.

[Mon Padman]

That's what she saw.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. On shrooms and you stare at any given thing long enough, you'll just see.

[Mon Padman]

Yeah. Things morph.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I think they definitely chalk that vegetarian meal. And to their credit, mushrooms are vegetarian.

[Mon Padman]

Maybe that's why. Because they can technically get away with it. It's technically legal.

[Dax Shepard]

Technically. Mushroom dinner, mushroom medley. Hi. How are you?

[Kristin]

Good.

[Francesca]

How are you?

[Dax Shepard]

Good. Is this a beautiful photo of you and your lover engaged in Play on.

[Francesca]

The beach engagement photos?

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, that's cute. It looks like you're either doing Hacky Sack or you could be doing the Kid in Play dance.

[Francesca]

I think I was kicking water at.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Because you're playful. And you taunted him 17 years ago. You don't look nearly old enough to be engaged. 17 years ago.

[Francesca]

I'm 38 now. I was 20.

[Mon Padman]

Were you high school sweethearts?

[Taj]

No.

[Francesca]

We met. Well, this kind of comes into play. I grew up in the cult, so I did not know him in high school.

[Mon Padman]

Okay. Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Kristin, where are you from?

[Francesca]

I'm from Northern California. You know, Humboldt County, I think you've.

[Taj]

Talked about it, actually.

[Dax Shepard]

Golden triangle or green triangle.

[Francesca]

Up where all the good weed and mathar.

[Mon Padman]

Yes.

[Francesca]

I was almost born into it. My mom got married, and I was in the religion from the time I was really tiny. So it wasn't something where I joined. It was something where I was there as a child.

[Dax Shepard]

And are you allowed to say the name of what the religion was?

[Francesca]

It was called Gospel Outreach. It's still around today. It's one you wouldn't have heard of. It's a lot smaller. And they're pretty good at keeping themselves on the down low and not being too obvious about what's going on there. Their religious beliefs would be Evangelical Lutheran type of thing. They believe that. That you are born full of sin, and every day your old man, as they call it, needs to be killed so that your new man can come forth in Christ. So the way they do this is they try to, like, break you by just beating down on you. You have meetings as children. We would have circle meetings where you'd pick a person and you just verbally attack them until they finally get to their breaking point. And they would do weird things like make us wear signs about our shortcomings and wear those around school.

[Mon Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, really quick. So this has huge overlap with this doc I saw about Synonym, which was this offshoot of sobriety a guy invented in Venice. And he had this thing called the Game. And it's how the group therapy worked and you attacked each other. And then all these people wanted to be a part of that organization that weren't drug addicts. And then all these civilians joined up in the Bay Area. I just wonder if there's any bleed out of this. Do you know the history of this religion?

[Francesca]

I don't know a whole lot. I know originally it started. The church that I went to was kind of in the Jesus movement, and it was taking hippies and helping them function in the world type of a thing. But then that church got associated with a church up in Olympia, Washington. And that's what I call the mother church, where a lot of the very culty things came from in the way we lived life. So I think it's more from up there is where it all started. It's pretty small. It's not very connected with other things. There's a few churches kind of in Oregon, Washington and then the one in Northern California, so there's really not many. There's maybe five total that are really involved. And then the church has its own school where we're all educated. Quotes we were taught by parents originally. None of them really had degrees or educations. They weren't teachers. Some of the classes we were self taught. I didn't really learn science or anything like that. It was pretty basic.

[Dax Shepard]

We are supported by Ring With Ring you can be there from anywhere with doorbells and cameras that help you see more to exciting features that help you know more to the app that lets you connect more. See more at the front door, up high and down low with battery doorbells head to toe video capture it all all day and all night with 24. 7 recording and get smarter alerts that know the difference between a person and a package right in the Ring app. Now I relied on these Ring photos.

[Mon Padman]

Quite a bit for our unfortunate violation.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, it was so good to have all that.

[Mon Padman]

It's also it just brings peace of mind to know you can check at any time.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, with Ring you can check in and be there from anywhere. Some features require a subscription and are available only on select Ring devices. Exclusions apply. Learn [e-mail] this message is brought to you by Apple Card. Apply for Apple Card today and start earning up to 3% daily cash back on everyday purchases. And that daily cash can even grow automatically when you open a high yield savings account through Apple Card. What are you waiting for? Visit Apple Co Card Calculator today to see how much daily cash you can earn. Subject to credit approval Savings available to Apple Card owners subject to eligibility Savings and Apple Card by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Member FDIC terms and [e-mail] we are supported by BetterHelp. We've had a lot of talk recently about therapy when we had other Monica on and how helpful it is in steering your way through so much of this quagmire that is your their own perception.

[Mon Padman]

I just got a friend of mine into therapy and they really, really are liking it already.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh good. Mental health awareness is growing, but there's still progress to be made. 26% of Americans who participated in a recent survey say they have avoided seeking mental health support due to fear of judgment. When people hesitate to get help, it doesn't just affect them. It impacts families, workplaces and entire communities. This mental health awareness month, let's encourage everyone to take care of their well being and break the stigma. The world is better when people are healthy and happy. BetterHelp has over 10 years of experience matching people with the right therapists. There are over 30,000 licensed therapists to choose from from diverse backgrounds with a wide range of specialties. They make it easy to find a therapist who fits your specific needs. We're all better with help. Visit betterhelp.comdax today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H E L p.comdax how many parishioners were at the church? And then how many kids were you in school with?

[Francesca]

It's grown. So they always say that their church growth plan is be fruitful and multiply. They almost never let people come in from the outside, but they just have lots of kids and then they kind of intermarry and eventually that's going to get interesting. They send women to the other churches so that they kind of have more of a pool to choose from. I was a student teacher at a very young time there in the school. And then when I was 15, they said, okay, time to be done. Go take your California High School proficiency examination. So I went and took it and I failed. And then I took it a while later, once they offered it again after some studying and I passed. I was 16 then. And then at that point I just taught full time in the school. I was never paid. It was all free. I didn't have any really education to speak of, but I was one of the teachers, which was somewhat of an esteemed position. You wanted to be a teacher as a woman in that environment, your job is to be a wife and a mother. There's nothing else for you. You shouldn't pursue a career. No one should go to college. College is considered to almost be evil. Getting married is a really huge thing. You have to be recommended for marriage. You have to attain a certain level of status and the last thing you would want is to be old and alone. The marriages were somewhat arranged. You could express interest in a person as a man if you wanted to. The men who lead the church might say no. They might say yes. They might say, look at someone else. You also might just go to the men and say, who should I marry? And they would tell you who you should marry. As a woman, you do have the right to say no to a marriage offer, but it will probably be your last offer.

[Mon Padman]

Oh my God, this is wild.

[Dax Shepard]

And Is there any visible impropriety? There's no multiple marriages happening, no plural marriage.

[Francesca]

It's all one on one and it's all of age. So they're winning there.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, yes. Kudos.

[Mon Padman]

They're keeping it legal.

[Francesca]

They look really good from the outside and they do well at that. People are always very impressed. How do I get to be a part of this? This is so amazing. You guys are doing such good things. Your kids are so well behaved.

[Dax Shepard]

How many boys your age were in your school?

[Francesca]

So my school, the one in Eureka, California was very small. So at the time I was there, it was only maybe 40 kids in the school. So in my age group I had five boys, very few options unless I was to be sent to another church.

[Dax Shepard]

And did you have a crush on any of them?

[Francesca]

It's a really, really sinful thing to admit that you would have a crush on somebody. So you really have to kind of suppress that part of yourself. Be very careful not to be seen interacting too heavily with boys you don't ever touch in any kind of a way or sit too close. If they think you might like somebody, it's not going to work out well for you generally. You need to leave that to the church.

[Dax Shepard]

And how much natural questioning did you have?

[Francesca]

I was pretty bought in. This is my life. This is everything. I know I've got to do the right thing. Leaving the church is the ultimate, worst thing you could do. And so it was really scary. I was kind of doing what they wanted me to do. The other thing that's interesting about the school day is we did school as in math language till noon. And then from noon on we did only music. We recorded and produced CDs. I think Wobby Wob has some pictures.

[Mon Padman]

Oh, wow.

[Francesca]

17 in the picture of me and that boy.

[Dax Shepard]

For the listener, you're on stage. It's a good sized stage. We've got a lot of huge pictures of biblical paintings behind you being put on a projector. Now that I see the stage, I'm assuming the music portion is like the attractive part of the religion. Like if you were to observe this, you'd be like, oh yeah, they're having so much fun. Yeah.

[Mon Padman]

But they're not trying to recruit, which I find interesting.

[Francesca]

Well, recruiting can get dicey because people aren't usually willing to give everything. If they didn't grow up in that.

[Mon Padman]

Environment, there's going to be some inherent skepticism.

[Francesca]

It'd be tough. And then people would question things.

[Dax Shepard]

Were you guys inviting non church members to witness the music?

[Francesca]

We would Go perform in front of large audiences. We would do, like, Christmas performances. The CD that I sent the song and the pictures, we did box 4th cantata. We did very, like, intricate, difficult music and got pretty good because it's literally everything we do. It's pretty insane and comical to me to listen to because it's like a whole different person. So how I left, I wasn't the highest status, but I was doing all right. But I was very bought in. And then one day, my dad sat my whole family down in the living room. There's seven of us kids, and I'm the oldest, and I was 19 at the time. And he said, we're leaving the church. Total shock to us. We all just started sobbing. We were devastated. It's our whole life. We don't even know people outside the church. So it's like, the worst thing that could happen to us. And I remember he said we could stay for, like, another month until some performance happened with music. So we had to go back to school. And my friends were crying in the grocery store, crying till they'd throw up, like, it's the worst thing that could happen. We went through the last little bit and we left. But the day that he told me we were leaving, I called someone who was like a mentor, a woman who was higher up as far as women can be. And she said to me, how much do you love the church? Do you love the church enough to leave your family? And I remember that I thought, yes. And I said, maybe. I don't know. The next day, she took back her offer and said, I talked to my husband, and he said, I need to stay out of it. Because she had mentioned maybe me coming.

[Kristin]

And living with them.

[Francesca]

And she was like, never mind. You stay with your family. And I was devastated by that. And I found out later that my dad had gone and threatened the men of the church and said, don't fuck with my family. I don't try to come after my kids.

[Dax Shepard]

When your dad told you you were all leaving, did he give an explanation as to why?

[Francesca]

I don't remember a lot of that day, but I know that he had gone to the men of the church and said, I don't believe that we're doing things biblically here. I think there's some real issues and we should make some changes. And they said, we don't care. You need to either do what we're doing or get out. And then when we left the church, to me, it felt a lot like if you moved to a different country that was English Speaking like, yeah, we speak the same language, but I don't really get humor your culture. I don't really understand what you're saying. I was really shocked by boys. Just being even mildly flirtatious was very alarming.

[Dax Shepard]

You were clutching your pearls a lot.

[Francesca]

Exactly. Oh, my gosh. It was really scary and lonely. It was so hard. But I met friends and gradually have become the person I am now. It was a very long evolution because there's a lot of boundaries in your head that you might not even realize you have, like the pursuing a career. I really didn't feel like I could pursue a career. And I remember one day, early in my husband and I's marriage, I said something about one day it'd be cool to go to nursing school. And he said, you should do it. And I was, like, so shocked by his response because I was like, wait, I could do it. It just didn't seem possible to me. I did eventually go to College. I was 30 when I took my first ever college class. I had nervous shits in between every class. It was so scary. But I have a bachelor's degree and I'm a ER nurse. It's so cool to look back, and it's a big part because I had people in my life who just supported me and wanted me to be a full person, and my husband was a huge part of that.

[Dax Shepard]

Any foreign objects? What's the term?

[Mon Padman]

Rectal.

[Dax Shepard]

Rectal. Foreign objects.

[Francesca]

There's a cucumber. Gatorade bottle.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, Gatorade.

[Mon Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Francesca]

A kid with a lipstick.

[Mon Padman]

Oh, no. Did you watch the Pit?

[Francesca]

Yes, I watched the Pit. Hands down, the most accurate medical show I've ever.

[Mon Padman]

There we go.

[Francesca]

The one thing they never get right is nurses are so underrepresented. We're doing everything the docs put in the orders. We do it.

[Dax Shepard]

Wow. Really quick. Did dad find his way to another fringe religion?

[Francesca]

He is a pastor and he has a small church.

[Dax Shepard]

And what about your siblings? Did they transition well into the worldly world?

[Francesca]

We've all kind of had a hard time in different ways. They're all doing good, but it's been a struggle mentally. It's a lot to get through locally. Some of them were a lot younger. I was the oldest, so. So some of them had much shorter periods of time that they lived in the religion, and they were mostly outside, so that helps a ton.

[Dax Shepard]

Does it diminish your confidence in your ability to evaluate reality?

[Francesca]

To some degree. There's things I have expectations of people, how they're going to treat Me how they're going to act. And I think that's been most poignant in my marriage, where he'll say something pretty benign, and I'm like, why are you trying to attack me? Why are you coming after me? But I just expect that. So we've had to definitely work through some things.

[Mon Padman]

To me, there is nothing more impressive than shedding an old life and starting fresh.

[Francesca]

Thank you.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Do you like Megan Phelps Roper? Have you heard her talk at all?

[Francesca]

I don't think so.

[Dax Shepard]

She was in Westboro Baptist, that wild Baptist church that holds the terrible signs up at funerals. Yeah. She wrote a book.

[Mon Padman]

I'm just in awe of people who can do that.

[Dax Shepard]

Me too.

[Francesca]

It's very hard. Well, can my husband come say yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, of course. Hi, handsome husband. Oh, there's a cat in the mix.

[Taj]

My daughter talked me into one, and.

[Dax Shepard]

Then now we have four.

[Mon Padman]

Oh.

[Taj]

Kind of got duped on that deal.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I think that's what happens with one cat. They're like mogwai. All of a sudden you have five. It's like they got wet.

[Taj]

Yeah, they worked their way in there. I'm glad you guys got to meet my wife. She's a huge fan. She's definitely the full package. She'll go to work and. And save a couple lives, come home, paint the house.

[Mon Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Taj]

Sing the kids to bed.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. It's good to get someone that really was, like, brainwashed and had to do a lot of stuff. Cause then just doing normal stuff feels like nothing. That's like, a hack.

[Taj]

I had a pretty good inside track on it because I worked with a lot of people she went to church with for about 11 years. So I was probably as close as you can get to the inside circle with without being on the inside.

[Dax Shepard]

You are well versed.

[Mon Padman]

That's helpful.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, it's so nice meeting both of you guys.

[Mon Padman]

Thanks for sharing.

[Francesca]

Nice to meet you.

[Dax Shepard]

All right, take care. Hello. Is this Anna?

[F]

It is.

[Dax Shepard]

Hi, Anna. Nice to meet you. I love your floral wallpaper.

[F]

Thank you. I'm in a bnb.

[Dax Shepard]

And what state are you visiting?

[F]

I am in Toulouse, France. I live in Portland, Oregon. But I'm visiting my friend who's getting married who lives in Toulouse. She is the one who recommended this prompt to me. We were at a cult together.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, together. That's how you met?

[F]

Well, we were children, but it feels very full circle to me. I just arrived today to see her.

[Mon Padman]

Oh, how lovely.

[Dax Shepard]

This may or may not shock you, but of the three people we've spoken with. Two are from Portland.

[F]

Oh, interesting.

[Taj]

Yeah.

[F]

I feel like colts are kind of a West coast deal.

[Dax Shepard]

I do too. Yeah. Northern Cal we had. And then now two.

[Mon Padman]

Portland, was it the Rajneeshis? That was Oregon, too.

[F]

That was eastern Oregon.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, the OG okay, the OG the original guru.

[Mon Padman]

No, Oregon.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay. That too. Okay. Anna, please tell us your experience.

[F]

To be fair to Portland, Oregon, I was in California.

[Dax Shepard]

We'll take it.

[F]

We were all up and down the coast. My group that I grew up in, I don't know if you've ever heard of a group called the Assembly. It's also called the Giftakis Assembly. No, not assembly of God. Thinking assembly of God. That's a different group.

[Dax Shepard]

No, I've never heard of this, but I like the name. It already is ominous.

[F]

Yes. So the assembly doesn't exist anymore. But it was a Christian cult, basically a Protestant church that started in the 70s where the leader just wanted to go back to basics, be really minimal. People didn't wear makeup. They didn't dress up too much. People kind of lived communally. I think it was kind of nice in the beginning. Everyone sort of participated, you know, saying a cappella, and it was just like, forget all of that worldly stuff. It had a heyday in the 70s. It started in Southern California, but it was all over. There are branches in Canada, Mexico, England, a lot of places in South America.

[Dax Shepard]

And did it have a founding charismatic leader?

[F]

Georgia and Betty Giftakis are Guiding Light. They were divinely inspired as far as we were concerned. When you talk about Cult, at first, you think it's gonna be, like, fun and sensationalist and wild, but it's actually just sad. And, you know, a lot of stories are really grim, and a lot of them are about abuse, but I wanted something that had a little more sparkle to it.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[F]

So my story is about a pseudoscientific medical device that my family used that kind of caught on in our very insular group. It's called the Zapper. And the Zapper was supposed to heal you by giving you a very light, sustained electric shock.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[F]

And I want to be clear. This wasn't preached from the pulpit like the Zapper will heal you, but it was a kind of insular environment where we didn't have any other friends and just weird fads would take place. And if someone of influence brought in a certain fad one time, it was a planner.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, like a Franklin planner.

[Mon Padman]

It's almost like an MLM.

[F]

That's funny, because we actually did a lot of MLMs together and just sort of marketed to each other. Basically.

[Dax Shepard]

We are supported by vital proteins. Vital proteins is the most popular brand of collagen peptides in the US For a reason. They're the experts. It's simple to add to your routine and it has four benefits all in one. Helping to support hair, skin, nails, bones and joints. These are all things that I really am in a battle to keep healthy.

[Mon Padman]

Me too. And this is the kind of peptide I can get behind. Kind. Yeah. It's tasty.

[Dax Shepard]

Very. By adding one serving of vital proteins, collagen peptides daily, you can help support your hair, skin, nail, bone and joint health. It's an easy life hack that will have you feeling and moving your best. Get 20% off by going to vitalproteins.com and entering promo code DAX at checkout. That's vitalproteins.com promo code DAX for 20 off. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. Disease. We are supported by Quints. One day it's cool. The next you're sweating through your clothes. That's how you know it's time to switch things up. Quince is gonna have exactly what you're looking for as we move through spring. Lighter layers, better fabrics, and prices that don't make you think twice. I've been in the market for shorts, short sleeve shirts. I'm getting prepped. Monica and Quince is the place.

[Mon Padman]

It's time to do a little refresh. This is such a good place to because it's a really good price, but it's really good quality, super high quality.

[Dax Shepard]

Quince has all the things you actually want to wear, like organic cotton silk polos, European linen beach shorts. Ding ding ding. And comfort pants that work for everything from backyard hangs to nice dinners. Quince keeps prices down by working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, giving you luxury pieces without the crazy markups. In this economy, making the most of your dollars is a priority. Quince gift. Elevate your closet with quince. Go to quince.comdax for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N C E.comdax to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.comdax we are supported by Allstate. Some people just know they could save hundreds on car insurance by checking Allstate first. Like you know to double check the hamper first before turning your white laundry into a lovely shade of paint pink. Like, you know to check that your headphones are plugged in first before blasting your guilty pleasure playlist in the quiet section of the library. Like, you know to check that you're texting the right person first before sending that spicy gossip about your cousin. Checking first is smart, so check Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate. Savings vary, subject to terms, conditions and availability. Allstate Fire and Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates North Brook, illustration, IL.

[F]

So to set the scene, because I sometimes go down a dark rabbit hole trying to explain the assembly, I made a kind of list of our fears and loves, which I'll share with you. If the assembly is a person, the assembly loves abstinence, all day, all night meetings, chores which are also called stewards, communal living, door to door witnessing fellowships which are like really lame parties. Our leader, George Kotakis, homeschooling, the left behind franchise, modesty, multi level marketing, street preaching, spankings, tithing, and of course, the zapper Z. If you have a Z and you have an alphabetical list, you got to put it in there. So these are our fears. Abortion, bikinis, Evolution, government, homosexuality.

[Dax Shepard]

When you'd go to church or you'd see the service, how tied to Christianity was it? Was the Bible still being being primarily used, or had he deviated so much that a lot of what you were learning had nothing to do with the Bible?

[F]

In a way, we were trying to be so strict and like hew so closely to scripture. We thought all the other churches were kind of too diluted. But you know the verse about straining a gnat and swallowing a camel?

[Dax Shepard]

No.

[F]

There's a verse that's about foolish people who would strain a gnat and swallow a camel. Meaning focusing on the real detail and then swallowing something enormous without even considering maybe that reference is not the right audience.

[Mon Padman]

No, it makes sense. It got so granular that the bigger picture was crazy.

[F]

Yeah. The thing that made it a high control group was that we believe that our leader and people closely associated with him were receiving divine inspiration. If someone suggested something to you, like you just sort of did it, it wasn't a suggestion. It was this is my way of being closer to God.

[Mon Padman]

Right?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. So what was novel about the Mormons is that the parishioners could receive revelation. That was the appealing part, as I understand it. But in this they could at least receive revelations.

[F]

Yes. My family left when I was probably like 13. I wish I had like the adults or I But my memories are mostly just being incredibly bored when I look back. And it feels as though a lot of the revelations were kind of ad hoc and they're kind of convenient.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, it's like Joseph Smith's revelations that a man should have multiple wives once he was busted having sex with a young woman that lived next door. That's interesting. Timing of that revelation.

[F]

Yeah, I don't know if I would call it a revelation, but by the time I was conscious and participating, one of our big things was we, we didn't do mainstream music. We didn't watch film and television. We didn't even sing in harmony. What they were worried. There was a lot of pop Christian music at the time and people would get caught up in the music and the emotion and sort of lose the message. So that way we were focused on the message. But yeah, let's see our fears. Government, homosexuality, Eastern mysticism. We were like no can do. Feminism, no. Public schools and their agendas, mainstream media, music, makeup. We were so scared of Satan worshipers, we never met any. We were talking about them all the time. Secular holidays we didn't participate in.

[Dax Shepard]

Great. And really quickly on the Zapper. I'm guessing it was a pre existing product that this was an off label use for or did someone invent this thing within the church?

[F]

The person who claimed to have invented it was like a quack doctor who wasn't part of our church. Her name is Holda Clark. She's also the author of a quack book called the Cure for All Diseases. Diseases she was investigated for like medical malpractice, I later learned and moved to Mexico because they were going to close down her wellness center in California. Her whole thing was, well, all diseases, including cancer and aids are caused by a parasite in the body. So you just need to electrocute the parasite and then you'll be all better.

[Dax Shepard]

So simple, it's crazy. None of these doctors thought of this.

[F]

Well, they just want to keep you sick. Oh sure, if you commit to like life. In the assembly, you're asked to push away your friends. You're going to meetings every day. This group of people down in Fullerton, they're just always sick. And no doctors could tell them what.

[Taj]

Was wrong with them.

[F]

They were fatigued, sometimes it was headache, sometimes it was stomach ache. They wouldn't have any energy. Like they just weren't well. George and Betty would give them like a special diet they would follow and that wouldn't work. We started to call it Fullerton disease. When I hear this as an adult, I Think Fullerton disease is probably depression. When you're a kid in the assembly, it sucked.

[Taj]

Right.

[F]

Because you're in meetings all day, like, you're getting spankings all the time. So many rules. You don't celebrate Christmas. You're just like, this sucks. But the best thing in the world was to be sick or somewhere in your family sick. Everyone's looking after you. You don't have to participate.

[Mon Padman]

Oh, God. This is like producing Munchausen.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[F]

It's the late 90s. The apocalypse is kind of around the corner. We're big into Y2K. We needed, like, our best soldiers on the ground, but people coming down with Fullerton disease. So enter this amazing device that's going to solve what doctors and diet can't. Suddenly, we're all zapping around the late 90s. Imagine a black plastic box, maybe around the size of your face or smaller, with little light on the top. Inside, it's got batteries and wires and stuff, and it's got on off screen switch wires are coming out of it. The wires kind of lead to these two copper handles. And you're meant to hold onto the handles and just turn on the thing and get an electric shock, but work up to 20 minutes. If it wasn't working, you could get, like, a paper towel wet and put that over and get, like, a little more of a shock.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. You could juice it up a little bit.

[F]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm thinking of basically the lie detector device that's been rebranded within Scientology, where you hold the handles and you get an E meter. You did it?

[Mon Padman]

Yeah, I did it at the Celebrity Center.

[Dax Shepard]

You went to the Celebrity Center?

[Mon Padman]

You don't know this story?

[Dax Shepard]

No, I don't know the story either. What? How could we have done all this? Scientology. Wait, you should be a caller.

[Mon Padman]

I wasn't joining. We had had an improv show at ucb, which is across the street. Sorry to commandeer.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. But this needs immediate attention.

[Mon Padman]

The Scientology center had a recruitment day, and it was exciting, and they had a fair, and we were like, we're.

[Dax Shepard]

Going to go is a bit.

[Mon Padman]

As a bit. But also, what are they going to say?

[Dax Shepard]

What is this, like, reconnaissance?

[Mon Padman]

Yeah. We all went to this movie theater, and there was a woman there who was in charge of us. She was very odd, I would say. And then we watched this crazy movie about Scientology. It's not produced. Considering the people who are involved in.

[Dax Shepard]

Scientology, they have a TV station too.

[Mon Padman]

They're going to have Tom act in the movie.

[Dax Shepard]

At the very least, famous writers have Been involved.

[Mon Padman]

Exactly. Then they separated us all and then we had to do the thing with the hands. And then they told us.

[Dax Shepard]

They asked you some questions.

[Mon Padman]

They asked questions. And it is how much you're holding, how much you're not. It's very primitive psychology for like a lie detector test.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, it's a polygraph.

[Mon Padman]

Yeah, but even way more basic than that. Anyway.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so it sounds like a similar setup.

[F]

Our thing did even less than what you're describing. He didn't even like produce any kind of results or anything.

[Mon Padman]

Well, this didn't either. They tell you a result.

[Dax Shepard]

So you were doing the zapper 20 minutes a day.

[F]

Yeah, we were zapping. You know, if you felt like you're coming down with something you might zap or just kind of proactively, you could zap. In my head, I associate it with like a punishment. I remember my parents being like, go zap.

[Mon Padman]

Your parasite was acting up.

[F]

Yeah, I would think it was like, the parasites are out of control. Oh, my mom, she likes to be active. She can't just sit and hold something for 20 minutes. That's torture to her. She was a seamstress, so she wanted to be like working at her sewing table. I remember this. My mom used to take the copper rods and just like put them down the back of her pants.

[Mon Padman]

Oh.

[F]

They need to make skin contact, but it didn't matter what kind of skin it could be.

[Dax Shepard]

But anally.

[Francesca]

Yeah.

[F]

My dad notices this. He's an engineer. He's got his own shop where he works with some industrial tools. So he goes away and like makes his own modification where instead of the two round handles, which are kind of uncomfortable to put down the back or pants, he makes these two curved butt cheek shaped sort of things.

[Dax Shepard]

Like big spoons.

[F]

Yeah, exactly. Then you could just put them down.

[Dax Shepard]

This is madness.

[Mon Padman]

This is how he's spending his time.

[Dax Shepard]

Someone knocks on the door and walks into this scene. Oem, this is an original manufacturing. This is a hybrid. To do what? To kill the parasite, obviously.

[F]

The weirdest bit is now if someone else in the family is using it. You know, it's like been down my mom's.

[Taj]

Ew.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Oh, sure, sure. If you've got on your cheeks or something.

[Mon Padman]

I don't know about that.

[Dax Shepard]

They've been on mom's bottom cheeks. At 13. How do we get out of this?

[F]

My mom decided she was going to leave. She's not only gonna leave the group, she's gonna leave my dad. She's leaving everything. She got like another apartment. She bought A car and disappeared away to this other life just to get out. When you live in this kind of environment, you don't know who you are or what your favorite color is. You can't have a conversation. You just crack.

[Dax Shepard]

Did she stay in the same town as you?

[F]

So we lived in San Luis Obispo, and she went to Atascadero.

[Dax Shepard]

I know Atascadero very well.

[Mon Padman]

Is it close?

[F]

It's the same county. So she didn't go very well.

[Mon Padman]

Oh, my God. She was also probably in perimenopause and her hormones.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, you think this is on all fours?

[Mon Padman]

It's a little bit all fours.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Mon Padman]

Book.

[F]

She leaves. And then after about a year, my dad decides to officially remove the family from the group because he was just kind of seeing them for who they really were.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Mon Padman]

Ruined his family.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. How was this celibate command working out? Is there celibacy within the marriage?

[F]

Oh, not within the marriage. Sex is only okay in this really specific context.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[F]

But there was this idea of no sex outside of marriage. You're not supposed to have crushes. You didn't really date. You weren't really supposed, like, have desire. You're just obeying God's command.

[Mon Padman]

Oh, this is wild. There's so many.

[Dax Shepard]

There's a lot of these.

[Mon Padman]

So many of these.

[Dax Shepard]

You're not thinking when you're driving through San Luis Abyss. That's the home of Cal Poly.

[Mon Padman]

And that these engineers are involved. I know that's a stereotype, but I guess I imagine, how could an engineer get trapped into this?

[F]

It's the straining a nap, swallowing a camel thing. You get so focused on engineering the zapper that you're not thinking about, why am I doing this?

[Mon Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Do we really think George and Fullerton has all the answers? And he never got busted having multiple lovers.

[F]

Most of these founders, he definitely did have multiple liaisons. I learned a lot of allegations against.

[Dax Shepard]

Him, to be honest. Why else deal with all the obligations of having cult followers if you're not having sex with them? Like, what is the reward?

[Mon Padman]

Power.

[Dax Shepard]

What's the point of power if not sex with hot people for you? But for men, I mean, that's what power is about, really.

[F]

It wasn't totally monetarily driven, but the tithing, you give a percentage sometimes like 10% of your earnings to the church. That's all going to direction quickly.

[Dax Shepard]

To tie this bow on it. Your friend's wedding. So she was a member of the church, and she presumably left as well.

[F]

Yeah. Her family left a little bit earlier under the guise of. Oh, we have to move away.

[Dax Shepard]

Tascadero tomorrow.

[F]

Exactly. I'm gonna see her get married on Saturday. I'm gonna see a lot of old family friends from the assembly days.

[Mon Padman]

Wow. Oh, that'll be such an interesting reunion.

[F]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

What a group to get together together with. Well, Anna, nice meeting you. Thanks for telling us that story.

[F]

Thank you so much.

[Mon Padman]

Have a great trip.

[Dax Shepard]

Bye.

[Mon Padman]

Hi.

[Dax Shepard]

Is this Franchesca?

[Kristin]

This is me. I'm so nervous.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, don't be nervous. You have a very cute sweater on. And do you go by something shorter than Franchesca? Because I can go all the way with Franchesca. But do you have, like, a nickname?

[Kristin]

People call me Fran or my dad calls me Frankie.

[Mon Padman]

Oh, I love that.

[F]

That's so cool. Thanks.

[Kristin]

I used to hate it, but I like it now.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. What age do you think you get to when you finally start liking all this cute stuff? Your parents.

[Mon Padman]

When you feel like they might die.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, you got to wait for them.

[Kristin]

Once they've died.

[Mon Padman]

Yeah, once. Or they're getting close. Then you love it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mon Padman]

Oh, did you make a fort for us?

[Kristin]

I did, and I've really found my center in here because I was really nervous, and it feels good just to sit here in the slight, dark, cozy.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you do any breathing exercises or anything?

[Kristin]

I tried, but they aren't working.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, where are you? Are you in Portland, Oregon?

[Kristin]

No, I'm in Big Sky, Montana.

[Mon Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. So you've got a cold cult story. Francesca, Fran, Frankie.

[Kristin]

I sure do.

[Dax Shepard]

What if I said Frankie and she just started bawling? I was like, yeah, it's too dangerous.

[Kristin]

But I want you to be.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, good. You just need to ask, and then I'll officially say yes.

[Mon Padman]

Everyone's dead.

[Kristin]

No. You want to see my dad? That's my dad.

[Mon Padman]

Oh, that's a sweet picture.

[Kristin]

So if you're wondering who joined the cult, it was these people.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, they're so cute. They look like they're on either a Seals and Croft or a Art Garfunkel and Paul Simon album.

[Mon Padman]

I feel like they're in Italy.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, are they in Italy in that photo?

[Kristin]

I don't think so. I'm guessing they're in Texas.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, the Alamo.

[Kristin]

I haven't seen the Pit.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so those gorgeous young people, they found their way into something. What was it?

[Kristin]

They met these two people. Their names were Trina and Steven. They met them at a rebirthing seminar. I don't know if you guys have ever heard of that. I don't really know what it is either. It's just where you probably practice redoing your birth. It was the early 80s.

[Mon Padman]

Wait, you're reenacting your own birth?

[Kristin]

So that if you had any trauma coming in, you can get rid of it. They joined Trina and Steven because Trina believed she could trans a spirit through her body. A dead trans medium is what she was called. So she would leave her body and then the spirit would take over. And that's what I did on Sundays. Pray pretty much from when I was born until I was 18.

[Mon Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

You'd go see Trina Channel spirits.

[Kristin]

So they collected a bunch of people. It was called the collective. Was an actual collective. So they all shared money and everything. But by the time I was born, it was not so much a collective. Everyone had their own money.

[Dax Shepard]

And this was in Texas.

[Kristin]

It was in Arizona. We went to trance every Sunday. It was like a dimly lit room. Everyone entered and we would sing, which was my favorite part. It was the only part that made sense to me. So we would sing a song and then she would meditate. And then the spirit would come through Dr. Duran, who was a 14th century doctor. And basically he would say a sermon and then he would open up for questions. So people basically sought advice from him.

[Dax Shepard]

How many folks were in attendance?

[Kristin]

Normally 100 at its peak. When I was growing up, it was probably more like 50.

[Dax Shepard]

And was it held in a church or what kind of space?

[Kristin]

We had this trans room that was lacked out, no windows or anything. So she needed darkness, but it wasn't so dark that you couldn't see her. And it's so hard because this was real for all of us. But it wasn't, obviously. But I grew up in it, so it was all I knew.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I just remember being a kid sitting in church and going like, I don't know, were you having any battle.

[Kristin]

Later on when I got old, older, but no, they created chaos so that you just wanted to be a part of this family. So Trina and Steven had kids and grandkids, and there was a hierarchy. They were treated better than my family. It was all based on money. And I realize that now. They targeted people who had rich families. And my mom had wealthy parents. My dad didn't. But my parents weren't giving any money because my grandparents wouldn't provide. So they were basically just treated like the lowest on the totem pole. My mom and dad never had a chance.

[Mon Padman]

I'm surprised they weren't like, we got to get out of here. No one's even being nice to us.

[Dax Shepard]

If you can't climb the ladder.

[Mon Padman]

Yeah. What's the incentive?

[Kristin]

We were told that we are the closest to God because we're with the spirit in this lifetime. So it did have some, like, Buddhist principles. We believed in reincarnation nation, and we believe that this life was our last because we were with the spirit, so we were special. I see.

[Dax Shepard]

Was it Christianity linked or.

[Kristin]

No, not really. We would make fun of it a little bit. So trans. You never knew what you were gonna get. Sometimes it was him like, oh, my God, you guys need to lighten up and have a party. Literally, the spirit, talking through her was telling us this. Or he would rip people to shreds. And then after trance, sometimes there were, like, processes where the adults would all get together and they would all drink alcohol and just, like, rip each other a new one.

[Dax Shepard]

Wow.

[Kristin]

I wasn't there. I was too young. But I was usually babysitting the kids. By the time they got home, you could tell they had been crying and just unregulated.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my God. Okay, this again is like the game, this kind of group participation therapy where you call out each other's character defects.

[Kristin]

People would make stuff up just to, like, get the attention off of them.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, that was what was happening in the game is like, you want to sit down with the gun loaded to direct at someone else to get the heat off yourself. So you're, like, incentivized.

[Kristin]

Yeah, it was pretty bad. There were good parts, like growing up in Tono village. I had a bunch of friends, and it was dirt roads, and it was a good place to grow up, but it was pretty toxic. We had our own school. You weren't encouraged to go out and get a degree or anything. You were encouraged to just stay small. Service was a big thing. People who weren't even qualified would be teaching at the school with no pay.

[Dax Shepard]

Free bad teaching. This is what we offer.

[Mon Padman]

We think teachers who do get paid don't get paid enough.

[Kristin]

I was so afraid of everybody. It was so scary. But also, I wanted their approval so bad. But my dad was always kind of like, half in, half out. He didn't actually want to go. He did it for my mom. And so when I was 7, they divorced, and he kind of left the commission community. But even before that, he was just painted as a terrible person because he didn't want to be there. And that showed. I knew my dad was a good guy. I loved him. But people would talk crap about him in front of me.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, that's the cruelest thing you can do to a kid.

[Mon Padman]

Yeah, nasty.

[Kristin]

That was part of the problem with trance was you were like asking a question and then you're airing all of your. In front of everybody and in front of the kids.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you know what it was that your mom was getting out of it?

[Kristin]

At first she wanted a community. And then they end up creating chaos to where it's like if you leave the community, you're leaving all of your friends, your family, you'll lose everything. And that's what they do. They make it so that you can't leave. There were people who left, but it sounds easy to just pick up and leave, but it's not. You don't have anything.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Mon Padman]

Starting from scratch.

[Dax Shepard]

How far away did your dad move?

[Kristin]

He just moved down to Phoenix area. So I would still see him, but not very often. So later on, When I was 11 years old, my mom decided to get a boyfriend who did not want to be in the community. It was just kind of looked down upon to have a boyfriend at all. And he was a Vietnam vet. He was sort of abusive, so I had to live with him for a little bit. Basically, my mom was shunned because she wanted to be with this man who didn't want to be in the community. Community. So there was a point around that time where I was also shunned. The whole community was having Thanksgiving at Trina and Steven's house and I wasn't allowed to go. I like, met with my sister and she's like, fran, you're not allowed. My oldest sister, I'm the youngest of five, but she was my person when my mom wasn't around.

[Mon Padman]

Why was she allowed to go?

[Kristin]

Because she had her own life. She actually got pregnant at 16. That was part of it too. You get married and you have babies. Assigned marriages. She had a baby at 16 because they told her, don't wear a condom. It hurts.

[Dax Shepard]

How old was the dude?

[Kristin]

He was only a couple years older than her. But they ended up getting married and then torn apart because one of the leader's daughters wanted to marry the guy she was with.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, boy.

[Kristin]

Yeah, my sister's the real mvp. She's the first born child of the cult. And I say it shows. So she told me, I can't go. They're mad at my mom. And I was, like, heartbroken about that. So later on, I'm going to feed my horses and I'm walking past Trina and Steven's house, which is where everyone was gathered, and my friend Scout came outside and she's like, fran, what are you doing? Innocently, she's like, come on, we're all having a party. And I was like, okay. So I go up the stairs and I get abused by Steven Camp, who is the leader. He just screamed at me in front of everyone, told me that I can't be there. I need to go home. And I'm 11 years old.

[Mon Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

What kind of hurt?

[Mon Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. What a fucking coward.

[Kristin]

Oh, he was a scary, scary guy. I don't even remember, to be honest. What I did after that, it was pretty traumatizing. So I had moved out of the house because of the guy she was with. So I moved in with my sister for a little while, and then I was gonna move back. I was told this later, but Paul, her boyfriend, didn't want me to move back, and so he asked her for a divorce. And then after that, my mom took her own life.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my goodness, what a horrific end.

[Mon Padman]

Really been through the wringer after my mom died.

[Kristin]

It was kind of like my family was finally in it. We were finally treated better, which is just absolutely crazy.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, they decided to extend some compassion in the wake of her.

[Mon Padman]

I think they feel guilty.

[Kristin]

I think they felt guilty. Basically, she just lost her whole support system because the women in the family all stopped talking to her. And then the guy that she was doing it for wanted to leave her, and he was just a terrible person.

[Dax Shepard]

What age were you when that happened?

[Kristin]

I was 11.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, Jesus.

[Kristin]

It was rough. I don't blame them for it. But I do think my mom dying did shatter the glass a little. Had people questioning, what the fuck are we doing doing here? And then I didn't actually leave myself because I was young, but I ended up living with multiple different families, plus my sister. And it just got worse. Once I was living with the cult leader's daughter, and they were really sweet. Like, everyone's a victim to this, I think, including their children. I had a boyfriend at 15. I went to trance one time, and I got called a whore in trance. My spirit called me a whore.

[Mon Padman]

Was that boyfriend part of.

[Kristin]

No, he wasn't.

[Mon Padman]

When you were around other people, were you, like, embarrassed to talk about it?

[Kristin]

No, it was kind of a joke. Like, oh, you guys live in Tonneau Village. You guys are part of that cult? And we're like, yeah, you guys think it's a cult? It's not. I listened to a recent recording of a trance, which it's the only one I have. I don't know where they all Are because they recorded them all. In the recording, he says, yeah, because everyone out there thinks we're a cult. We're not. They were always trying to stress that we're not a cult. In school, they showed us Jim. Jim Jones and David Koresh. They showed us those. And they're like, see, that's a cult. If no one gets murdered, it's not a cult.

[Mon Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. How do you exit?

[Kristin]

Eventually, my sister moved down to the valley, down to Phoenix. She tried to stay in it, but basically, if you're away, they're not really letting you do it. Everybody tithed money. Everyone was paying for Trina and Steven's.

[Dax Shepard]

Life for her weekly show.

[Kristin]

Exactly. My sister went up there to tithe, and I guess she was just trying to quit smoking. One of the cult leader's daughters said, oh, Tasha's trying to quit smoking. And Trina went, smoking doesn't cause cancer. And Tasha was like, okay, that's it. Like, that was her last straw.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, 14th century doctors don't really know yet about small cell carcinoma. The irony, too, of the spirit being invoked somehow would have some elevated something because they were. A 14th century doctor, like, nobody on earth was right now, would be as bad of a doctor as a 14th century doctor.

[Kristin]

Right. And he would give medical advice.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, God.

[Kristin]

What blood pressure medication are you on? I don't like it.

[Mon Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

Even though he only dealt in blood letting and probably leeches.

[Kristin]

Yeah. Like, my friend's mom died of a stroke. If we were getting actual medical care, we would have known that she had high blood pressure. But instead, we were listening to the spirit. So that kind of stuff makes me really angry.

[Dax Shepard]

Did you end up having a relationship with your dad?

[Kristin]

Turns out he had manic bipolar, which he also would have known if therapy was a thing or if medical psychology was a thing. So I ended up having a relationship with him, and then it kind of fell out because I didn't go live with him. I live with my sister. And then he had a huge episode. Kept having episodes. He would get off his meds, on his meds, and then he started doing drugs. And so now his brain is pretty fried.

[Mon Padman]

Yeah. Oh, man.

[Kristin]

We still have a relationship with him. We love him. He comes for dinner and everything, but he's just not the same guy.

[Dax Shepard]

Francesca, you have been dealt quite a fucking hand, my lord. The fact that you're in that cute sweater and put together.

[Kristin]

I made this sweater.

[Mon Padman]

Oh, my gosh. So cute.

[Kristin]

One of the guys from the cult is a chess master because there was like this whole thing. Steven was obsessed with chess. He was a co founder of Chess.com, which is where you play online chess. And he just wrote a book and it's coming out in September and it's going to be be about the cult a little bit. And also his chest journey.

[Dax Shepard]

Did he ultimately leave the cult? Will it be a critical look at the cult?

[Kristin]

Yes. Everyone has left the cult. There are still people that still have it in their brain. They're so brainwashed that it's still real for him, including my dad. He'll go in and out because he was so abused by them. But yeah, the cult is dismantled.

[Dax Shepard]

I want to see Trina's show. I wish she would just do it at a black box theater. So I could see it as like a one woman woman's show.

[Kristin]

She used to do Public Chances. She passed. Actually. She died three years ago. It was like an alcohol induced dementia. Which makes sense. I still don't know if she was in on it.

[Mon Padman]

Right. It's hard to know that.

[Kristin]

Or was it Steven, like saw this craziness about her and decided to capitalize on it. I wish I could be a fly on the wall to hear a conversation.

[Dax Shepard]

That went on if we're to like, just look at the pattern of history and acknowledge it as real. My hunches. Stephen was somehow pulling the strings of this whole thing.

[Mon Padman]

Definitely. But I think probably at some point whether she started off believing it. I'm sure at some point she did believe she was channeling this person.

[Kristin]

Yeah.

[Mon Padman]

I don't think you can keep that up for that long if it's a full ruse.

[Dax Shepard]

This is a terrible false equivalency. But we've talked about it on here with other improv people. A lot of comedians have certain characters. I have a couple of them that when I start talking like them, they have a whole language that I don't necessarily have.

[Kristin]

Robot.

[Dax Shepard]

It's true. The second I'm talking as Frito, all of these thoughts are just very quickly there. They're not my normal thoughts. I've not even tried to embrace that in a way. That would be my identity. But I understand the notion of feeling like you're creating things that aren't really yours. Does that make sense?

[Mon Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

For her to buy into it. I don't think it'd be that hard to buy into it.

[Mon Padman]

Yeah. I mean, not to get so Buddhist, but we are all sort of buying into our identities all the time. It's not that much of a stretch to believe something about yourself and Then just be it.

[Kristin]

Yeah. I think your brain does crazy stuff, especially if you have some dementia going on later on.

[Mon Padman]

Yeah. Oof.

[Dax Shepard]

Ooh. I'm impressed. You've made it out and I'm doing okay.

[Kristin]

Me and all my siblings are doing pretty well.

[Mon Padman]

Good.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, good.

[Mon Padman]

Happy to hear that.

[Kristin]

My sister. I just want to shout out her out. Her name is Tosh. She raised me pretty much.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, good on you, Tosh. Well, Francesca, thank you for sharing all that with us. That's heavy. And I'm sorry for all that.

[Mon Padman]

I'm sure it will help a lot of people. You never know who's listening, who might be, like, in a bad situation and needs to be heard and seen.

[Kristin]

Yeah. Just know that they're creating chaos to keep you there.

[Mon Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Mon Padman]

Well, thank you so much for chatting with us.

[Kristin]

Yeah. It was so nice to meet you guys. I can't believe this. This is crazy.

[Mon Padman]

Really nice to meet you.

[Dax Shepard]

All right, take care.

[Mon Padman]

Bye.

[Dax Shepard]

What you would hope people would hear is there's such a pattern to all this.

[Mon Padman]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

They all do almost the same thing.

[Mon Padman]

The arranged marriage piece is interesting that that's come up multiple times.

[Dax Shepard]

The beating you down, the group criticism you have. Any of these things are happening in your book club. You know, maybe the book club is a maybe.

[Mon Padman]

Take a second glance. My teeth look really white.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, you have exceptionally white lips.

[Mon Padman]

If you want to have white teeth, just join this.

[Dax Shepard]

Join now for 1999.99 and I'll also.

[Mon Padman]

Throw in a free sermon.

[Dax Shepard]

I want to see you channel and talk in tongues. I want you to lose your marbles a little bit. For an hour every Sunday, I would go to your show, then you'd be.

[Mon Padman]

Laughing at me and then I'd cry.

[Dax Shepard]

No, you wouldn't. You'd be a warlock from the fort 14th century.

[Mon Padman]

I understand how it happens. You're there and it's what you know. But it's so amazing what the brain does that it can't just pull out for a minute. But they do a good job of saying it's not a cult.

[Dax Shepard]

I was exposed to some weird stuff. A. I went to church on Sundays. Two different religions, whatever. That's standard. But my father was also quite woo woo, Right. Like through aa, he found acoa. Adult children of alcoholics. And then the course of miracles, and then all of it's fine. But I was in a basement with him where a guy's, like, making someone hold something, then pushing on your liver and then pushing the arm down. And a lot of the people that are In a. Are there? And they're kind of intrigued by it. And there's crystals. I don't want this to sound like a pat on the back to myself or casting any. Shame on anybody, but I'm just not very susceptible. I was like, what the fuck?

[Mon Padman]

Okay. But the reason you weren't is because you had an environment that. I also was opposite that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. In fact. Applauded critical skepticism.

[Mon Padman]

Yeah. So if everyone you know is doing one thing, there's no way.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm not suggesting that I too, couldn't be this way. I just am remembering that I was in lots of different situations where I was like, this is horseshit.

[Mon Padman]

This is why they don't want to let other people in.

[Dax Shepard]

They shouldn't invite me in because I'll probably be like, hold on, how do you know about that? That was invented in the 16th century. I'd like bust the 14th century doctor. Then everyone stand up and go, oh my God, the spell's been broken. Thank you. DX Shepard, you are new leader.

[Mon Padman]

Exactly. And that's what you always wanted.

[Dax Shepard]

I am the leader of the truth. I have a.

[Mon Padman]

That's what they are.

[Dax Shepard]

Proprietary.

[Mon Padman]

You sound just like all of them.

[Dax Shepard]

Get off your clothes and let's talk about your.

[Kristin]

Bye.

[Francesca]

Do you want to sing a tune or something?

[Dax Shepard]

One of a theme song. Oh, okay, great. We don't have a theme song for this new show, so here I go, go, go. We're gonna ask some random questions and with the help of armchairs, we'll get some suggestions on the fly Rhyme dish on the fire rhyme dish.

[Kristin]

Enjoy.

[Dax Shepard]

Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcast Podcasts. You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wonder app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short [e-mail] survey Lamont Jones's World is shattered when his cousin dies in custody just weeks after entering prison. The official report says natural causes, but bruises and missing teeth tell a different story. From Wondery comes Death County, Pennsylvania, a chilling true story of corruption and cover ups that begins as one man search for answers but soon reveals a disturbing Lamont's cousin's death is just one of many and powerful forces are working to keep the truth buried. With never before heard interviews and shocking revelations, Death County, Pennsylvania pulls back the curtain on one of America's darkest institutional secrets. This isn't just another true crime story. It's happening right now. Follow Death County PA on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Death County PA early and ad free right now by joining Wondery.