Armchair Anonymous: Mother-in-Law

Summary

Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
Episode: Armchair Anonymous: Mother-in-Law
Release Date: November 22, 2024

---

Introduction

In this emotionally charged episode of Armchair Expert, Dax Shepard delves into the tumultuous relationships individuals often have with their mothers-in-law. Joined by co-host Monica Padman, the episode titled "Armchair Anonymous: Mother-in-Law" explores personal stories that highlight the complexities and challenges of these familial bonds. The conversation navigates through moments of vulnerability, setting boundaries, and the lasting impact of strained relationships.

---

Emily's Story: An Unsettling Incident

Emily shares a harrowing experience involving her mother-in-law's inappropriate actions shortly after the birth of her first child.

• Initial Miscommunication
  At [01:04], Emily recounts how a lack of communication led to her mother-in-law posting an explicit photo of her on Facebook without her consent:

  "...my mother in law, who is usually very active on social media, hadn't posted anything about the baby being born...she said, well, like, I know you had said at the hospital that this was something that you didn't want us doing..."

• Immediate Impact and Resolution
  Emily describes the immediate emotional toll and the steps taken to rectify the situation:

  "...it had one shot, it's like I'm staring off into the abyss, looking like I have questioned every life decision at this point... I think that brought me to you guys, it makes the pill a little easier to swallow." [09:20]

• Reflection on Personal Boundaries
  She reflects on the necessity of setting firm boundaries to protect her autonomy:

  "The one thing I could hold on to is that there were some intimate parts of myself that only I knew." [11:39]

---

Nicholas's Story: Overcoming a Toxic In-Law

Nicholas opens up about the aggressive and manipulative behavior of his mother-in-law, which escalated to legal battles and emotional trauma.

• Early Red Flags and Eccentric Behavior
  At [14:09], Nicholas discusses the peculiar actions of his mother-in-law, such as stealing baby ducks:

  "...she used to steal baby ducks from their mom behind Target and then sell them..."

• Escalation to Legal Intervention
  The situation deteriorated when his mother-in-law attempted to gain custody of his children, leading to police involvement:

  "We had to have the police intervene...she did not apologize, but it did get taken down." [24:18]

• Long-Term Effects and Lessons Learned
  Nicholas reflects on the lasting impact of these events on his family:

  "It's a good lesson in narcissistic personality disorder and a good lesson in how to set boundaries. And ultimately, my husband's super hot, so it was worth it." [25:15]

---

Heidi's Story: Legal Battles and Emotional Struggles

Heidi provides a deep dive into her prolonged struggle with her mother-in-law's intrusive and harmful behavior, culminating in a no-contact order.

• Initial Tensions and Boundary Setting
  Heidi describes her attempts to maintain a peaceful relationship while dealing with her mother-in-law's constant interference:

  "We decided to go down that path. And so my wife, she did all of the submissions. I didn't want to be the one who was petitioning for a no contact order against my mother in law." [48:22]

• Confronting Manipulative Tactics
  She narrates the manipulative tactics employed by her mother-in-law to gain proximity and control:

  "She was putting nut oils in the food and, like, grinding up peanuts and almonds and putting them in the food that we were eating." [30:36]

• Legal Proceedings and Final Resolution
  The ordeal led to a court case where her mother-in-law's erratic behavior was exposed:

  "She has a binder full of every voicemail ever left, all transcribed...she proceeds to talk in circles. Eventually, she's screaming at the judge because the judge isn't doing what she wants her to do." [48:45]

• Emotional Aftermath and Hope for the Future
  Despite the challenges, Heidi expresses hope for healing and improved relationships:

  "We have a 10 year old daughter and a 12 year old son... We really hope that she decides to make the necessary changes and steps to have that good relationship." [54:15]

---

Key Insights and Conclusions

Through the candid stories of Emily, Nicholas, and Heidi, the episode sheds light on common issues faced in mother-in-law relationships, including boundary violations, manipulative behaviors, and the struggle for autonomy. The narratives underscore the importance of:

• Setting Firm Boundaries: Establishing clear limits is crucial in maintaining healthy relationships and protecting personal well-being.

• Seeking Legal and Emotional Support: When familial conflicts escalate, seeking legal intervention and emotional support can be essential for resolution and healing.

• The Impact on Mental Health: Prolonged toxic relationships can lead to significant emotional and psychological strain, emphasizing the need for self-care and professional guidance.

Dax Shepard and Monica Padman adeptly guide the conversation, offering empathy and understanding while encouraging listeners to reflect on their own familial dynamics.

---

Notable Quotes

• Dax Shepard on Boundary Setting:

  "It's hard for me not to fill in some blanks about that reaction..." [11:11]

• Monica Padman on Relationship Dynamics:

  "We love Audible. This is how you go to bed." [03:19] (Note: This quote appears to be part of an advertisement and may not be relevant to the episode's main content.)

• Heidi on Managing Toxic Relationships:

  "We started to put some boundaries and it's not helping." [47:00]

---

Final Thoughts

"Armchair Anonymous: Mother-in-Law" offers a profound exploration of the challenges that can arise in familial relationships, particularly with in-laws. Through personal testimonies, the episode provides valuable lessons on the necessity of boundaries, the courage to seek help, and the resilience required to overcome toxic dynamics. Listeners are left with a deeper understanding of the complexities of human relationships and the importance of prioritizing one's mental and emotional well-being.

---

Transcript

[Dax Shepard]

Wondry subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now. Join Wondry plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Anonymous. I'm Dax Shepard and I'm joined by Monica Padman.

[Monica Padman]

Hi.

[Dax Shepard]

This is crazy mother in law stories.

[Monica Padman]

Whoa.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

I don't have one.

[Dax Shepard]

You don't have one yet.

[Monica Padman]

So I can't relate. And I can't say after listening that I'm sad I don't have one.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, well, I guess that's the question. Not having one. Do you think it made you less interested in the stories?

[Monica Padman]

No, I was just as interested, but it was cautionary tale.

[Heidi]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Because I love horrible bosses stories and I don't have a horrible boss.

[Monica Padman]

True. Also father in law's too. I think I'm a lone wolf now because. Because of these episodes.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, you're never gonna get married after hearing these. So this is for you, a cautionary tale. So I guess maybe if you want to get married, don't listen to this. It's a fair warning.

[Monica Padman]

It's the reality. Look, it's the reality of life. Dive right in.

[Dax Shepard]

It's a lottery. You hit the jackpot. Or. Well, it's probably neutral more than anything else.

[Monica Padman]

Yet nobody loves their mother in law more than the kid loves their mom. You know what I mean?

[Dax Shepard]

Like, it's a uniquely weird dynamic.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Like, as much as I love my parents so much, and I do think they're great and I think they'd be a great mother in law and father in law, my husband isn't going to like them as much as I do.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I don't know. I don't know about that because I've been around them before and I'm just a pig in shit. And you can be annoyed while I'm actually happy. So it could be. And then you could resent your husband because.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. I'm going to take back the word. Like, okay, love. They're not going to love my parents as much as I do. They might like them more.

[Dax Shepard]

Good distinction.

[Monica Padman]

But they just, you know, it's the way it goes. This is life. You can't expect it.

[Dax Shepard]

It's primal. It does make you think about, though, how most of mankind operated where someone completely left their family group and went and joined another family and then that was it. You might see them at a festival once a year, but you left and now this is your new family. It probably worked better then.

[Monica Padman]

Why?

[Dax Shepard]

In the same way that arranged marriages work better. Like they kind of are more successful.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, but that's different from not having.

[Dax Shepard]

Like, if you, if it's your only option, you probably go like, well, I gotta get with the program.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

As opposed to I still got my parents and these ones are not. I don't know.

[Monica Padman]

This is a tough.

[Dax Shepard]

This is a tough one. Don't listen. Please don't listen to crazy mother in laws. We are supported by Audible. Audible's best of 2024 picks are here. Audible's curated list in every category is the best way to hear 2024's best in audio entertainment. Like a stunning new full cast production of George Orwell's 1984. This is the one I am most excited to indulge myself with.

[Monica Padman]

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[Dax Shepard]

Well, there's so many good ones on the list.

[Monica Padman]

We love Audible. This is how you go to bed.

[Dax Shepard]

I love Audible. I swear by Audible. I can't wait to listen to the Orwell 1984 off this list. I'm also doing fleas by autobiography right now, which I'm obsessed with. I can't get enough Audible in my life every night. Go to audible.comdax and discover all the year's best waiting for you. That's audible.com Dax we are supported by Peloton. Are you tired of the same old workout routine or struggling to find motivation at this busy time of year? It's time to check out Peloton.

[Monica Padman]

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[Dax Shepard]

Uh huh.

[Monica Padman]

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[Dax Shepard]

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[Dax Shepard]

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[Monica Padman]

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[Dax Shepard]

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[Monica Padman]

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[Dax Shepard]

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[Monica Padman]

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[Dax Shepard]

Find your push, find your power with [e-mail] Hard times come and go Good times take em slow my life I had em both Remember one thing you.

[Heidi]

Gotta know I'ma keep on shining.

[Monica Padman]

Hi.

[Dax Shepard]

Hello. Is this Heidi?

[Emily]

Oh, hi. You know, a lot of people when they got on here say they can't believe it's real until they see you. And I never understood that until this exact moment. I was convinced that some hacker named Emma really had me fooled for 48 hours.

[Monica Padman]

No, she's a good one.

[Dax Shepard]

Do we want a fake name for you?

[Emily]

No, we don't want a fake name. I've actually gone back and forth with that a lot for the last 24 hours. I have faith that my armchair community is not going to throw me under the bus because I don't think my mother in law is aware of podcasts.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, what if that was your first complaint? The first article submitted to evidence was that she hates podcasts.

[Nicholas]

Right, right, right, right, right.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, okay.

[Dax Shepard]

So mother in laws.

[Emily]

I last year was very pregnant. I gave birth in January of this year.

[Dax Shepard]

Congrats.

[Emily]

Oh, thank you. This is my husband and I's first baby, baby boy born in January. We were doing great as new parents who knew nothing of what they were doing. Yeah, my only complaint was that I am a very type a person and I hadn't slept in a while. And so it was about a week after giving birth and I noticed that my mother in law, who is usually very active on social media, hadn't posted anything about the baby being born and I should have just let it go. Not a big deal at social media, but there was some little person inside of me saying we need to investigate. So I talked to my husband and he gave her a call. So both sets of parents, we were lucky enough to have them at the hospital when the baby was born. And he had mentioned to everyone who are loving to take a lot of photos with their cell phone cameras, like please don't post anything on media until we've had a chance to tell our friends and family. So that that way they're not finding out on Facebook that he's been born. So again, it had been over a week at this point. And so when he called to check in about why she hadn't posted, she said, well, like, I know you had said at the hospital that this was something that you didn't want us doing. And I just feel like I've been put in Facebook jail. And my husband was like, well, I'm so sorry for the miscommunication. We really just meant like, the first 24 hours, please, this is your debut to let everyone know that you have a grand baby. You know, got off the phone, told me about that. I had honestly kind of forgotten about it. And later that evening, my husband encouraged me to like, go take a nap. That first week you are awake with them, like, especially as a mom, feeding every two hour schedule. And so I had not gotten more than, I'm not exaggerating, probably 45 minutes of sleep at a time for like that full week. And so he was like, we've got milk stored up. Go put on one of your podcasts. Go to sleep. So I wake up two hours later. I had put my phone on airplane mode so that no one could wake me up. I was like, I'm going to mentally rest. And I wake up, I turn it off like airplane mode. And I have texts and missed calls from my sister and my best friend saying, heidi, I don't know how to tell you this, but your mother in law has posted a topless photo of you on her Facebook.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, no.

[Emily]

I was like, surely this is a nightmare. This is like I'm hallucinating. Like, I officially lost the amount of sleep where, like I am crossed over to the other side. So I run downstairs and I tell my husband, she didn't mean to do this, but this is the situation that we're in. Please call her. Please have her take this down immediately. And I was like, and don't tell her that I know about it. I don't want to embarrass her. Honestly, at this point, I was very calm about everything. Like, we all make mistakes. I was feeling very maternal about the whole thing. And so he calls and lets her know. We love the photos you've posted. Unfortunately, you slipped one in there. It was one of those nice video montages that your Apple phone will like create for you.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure, sure.

[Emily]

And the second slide with really nice classical music to. It was just me completely bare breasts.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, God.

[Emily]

I was a double A before this experience. I am now like a triple deep. It's insane. My nipples were massive. And this wasn't like a tasteful nude that Was something that I would be proud to show my husband's friends and family. This was like I'm staring off into the abyss, looking like I have questioned every life decision at this point. And exhausted, no makeup. Ha. I don't even recognize myself. And her response is, there's no way I've done that. And he's like, no, you did. And I need you to go on Facebook right now and take it down. So hangs up the phone. I'm, like, refreshing her page over and over and over again. And sure enough, 30 seconds later, it's gone. And again, it's funny, at this point, we all make mistakes. And she ends up calling back five minutes later, I'm assuming to apologize. And when my husband picks up the phone, she is very defensive. Like, I can't believe I'm being censored.

[Nicholas]

Like.

[Emily]

Like this.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

You're not being censored. We're censoring my wife's breast.

[Emily]

He's starting to get defensive, like, on my behalf. I'm starting to get angry. And then the line. Look, I'm going to be honest. I've sent that video to all of my friends and all of our family, and no one has said anything about it. And in my head, I'm like, well, of course they haven't said anything about it. They're trying to figure out how to tell you what they've just seen. So in my head, I'm just picturing, like, my husband's uncle sitting there opening up this lovely video of the new baby in the family. And it's just. There's Heidi. He ended up hanging up. I wish I could say that there was, like, some sort of resolution. I don't think she knows I even know that this happened to this date. We had no apology in true mom fashion, but it did get taken down. I can laugh about it now. And knowing that it brought me to you guys, it makes the pill a little easier to swallow.

[Dax Shepard]

It's hard for me not to fill in some blanks about that reaction. It does remind me that narcissists, whenever they fuck up, they're a victim. The fact that she was immediately a victim of doing that is a little triggering for me.

[Emily]

I think that that is what was triggering for me, too, because your autonomy when you have a baby. My body wasn't my own. I didn't recognize myself. The one thing I could hold on to is that there were some intimate parts of myself that only I knew.

[Dax Shepard]

Not everyone had seen your breasts. Yeah, right.

[Monica Padman]

That's crazy.

[Dax Shepard]

I Was going to chalk it up to like, oh, you got to love these seniors and how unsophisticated they are with technology. But then the response, that just really nullifies Grace the video.

[Emily]

Also, I wish I could say that it was cinematic genius, but it was a lot of blurry photos. Like, I wish that one was just a little blurrier, but that one was Chris.

[Dax Shepard]

A razor sharp focus.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, mother in law.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, God bless my mother in laws.

[Emily]

Thank you all so much for having me. I can't tell you how much this means to me. I have been an armchair since literally day one. Very sim. But I happened to hear about what a podcast was was the same week that you all launched the Valentine's Day episode. And so I decided I would try and give yours a chance. And I've listened to every single episode since.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my God.

[Monica Padman]

So nice.

[Emily]

And I was wondering, is it okay if I show you?

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, we would love to see a little. We love babies.

[Emily]

Come here.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, that's a cute one.

[Emily]

This is Giovanni. He turned nine months yesterday.

[Monica Padman]

Happy birthday. Birthday.

[Dax Shepard]

He has yummy pudding on his belly.

[Emily]

He's a chunky guy. He's nine months. These are 18 month clothes.

[Dax Shepard]

Good for him.

[Emily]

But I also wanted to tell you in true sim fashion, it was really, really funny to get the email from Emma because I also got an invitation this evening to drive up to D.C. and meet Auntie Anne of Auntie Anne's Pretzels.

[Monica Padman]

Oh.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh.

[Emily]

Something is weird in my simulation.

[Dax Shepard]

You should buy a lottery ticket today.

[Emily]

That's what my husband said.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, let's get into that Powerball. Let's see if we can't also accumulate $600 million today. Well, lovely meeting you, Heidi. Thank you for telling us that story. All right, take care.

[Nicholas]

Bye.

[Emily]

Bye.

[Nicholas]

Hi.

[Dax Shepard]

Hi. What should we call you? Did you already pick out a name?

[Nicholas]

I debated and my name's pretty basic, so I'm gonna just go with it. It's Emily.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Nicholas]

There's a million of us.

[Dax Shepard]

I've met more than one.

[Nicholas]

I figure we'll be safe that way.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, great.

[Nicholas]

Everyone else, I'll change names for.

[Monica Padman]

We do like knowing that you thought about doing a fake name, though, because that generally means it's juicy.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, that's usually a good sign.

[Nicholas]

It's definitely not one that I'm hoping she ever hears and circles back on us. That would not be ideal.

[Monica Padman]

I can't wait to hear it.

[Nicholas]

Okay, so I have to give a little context. My husband was a dad at 16 when we met. He already had a six year old. I'm two years older than him, but we were babies. He was 22, about to turn 23. I was 24, about to turn 25. There was a six year old in the mix. It was a lot.

[Dax Shepard]

He must be a real stud if.

[Monica Padman]

You were like, oh, yeah, he's gorgeous. How exciting.

[Nicholas]

It excuses all the stuff I went through and makes sense why I turned a blind eye to the red flags. At 22, most guys would be out on their own or maybe not living with their mom, but he was because he had a six year old and she was helping. So she was, from what I gathered, supportive and a good mom. He didn't want me to beat her, though.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay.

[Nicholas]

He was nervous. He has eight siblings.

[Heidi]

Oh, wow.

[Nicholas]

A little bit scattered around. So there were red flags when I first met her, but they're like funny red flags. Quirky things. Like she used to steal baby ducks from their mom behind Target and then sell them.

[Monica Padman]

What?

[Emily]

Whoa.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, wait.

[Monica Padman]

Real ducks?

[Nicholas]

Real live baby.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God. On, like, the black market.

[Nicholas]

On, like, Facebook. I think she used to hatch baby chicks in a room off her kitchen.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, interesting.

[Nicholas]

Okay, these were things that I thought were odd, but she was living off the land, homesteading also. This is Florida.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, she's a Tanya type.

[Nicholas]

Funnily enough, that's the name I'm going to use for my oldest daughter. But yeah, so she was a little bit eccentric, but then there were other things that were harder for me to swallow. Her house was scary. There were flies everywhere. Oh, My oldest still doesn't eat strawberry jam because she thought it had flies in it.

[Heidi]

Oh.

[Nicholas]

And when you turn on the kitchen lights, all the cockroaches came out.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, so it was dirty as hell.

[Nicholas]

Yes. Well, she used vinegar to clean because that's natural.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Nicholas]

Okay, but here's the icing on the cake. She had a composting toilet.

[Dax Shepard]

What? How does a composting toilet function?

[Nicholas]

At her house? It was basically like a Lowe's bucket that people went in the bathroom.

[Dax Shepard]

No.

[Nicholas]

Threw mulch on.

[Unknown]

No.

[Heidi]

Whoa.

[Nicholas]

Yes. She had the kids emptying it.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, she's like living in the 1800s. She's using vinegar and selling wildlife now. Really quick, what was her day to day demeanor like? If you had met her out at Chili's, would you have been able to guess that all this madness was happening or.

[Nicholas]

No, not exactly. And that's an interesting part about her because she plays the hero often and plays the savior often. So she talks a big game about being like this great human being but she also has other things happening that I learn.

[Dax Shepard]

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[Monica Padman]

That's huge.

[Dax Shepard]

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[Monica Padman]

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[Dax Shepard]

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[Monica Padman]

I'm so excited to listen to James, which is a new title by Percival Everett that is very, very hot right now.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, there's so many good ones on the list.

[Monica Padman]

We love Audible. This is how you go to bed.

[Dax Shepard]

I love Audible. I swear by Audible. I can't wait to listen to the Orwell 1984 off this list. I'm also doing Fleas by Autobiography right now, which I'm obsessed with. I can't get enough Audible in my life every night. Go to audible.comdax and discover all the years best waiting for you. That's Audible Dot. We are supported by Skims. If you're in the market for holiday presents, Skims has got you covered.

[Monica Padman]

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[Dax Shepard]

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[Dax Shepard]

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[Monica Padman]

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[Dax Shepard]

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[Nicholas]

So when I got to know her, she was telling me all about Tanya's biological mom, who was not really in the picture, but she was telling me horrible things. She was telling me that this woman had neglected Tanya, that she probably abused her, that when they used to get her back, she would be smelly. No diapers were changed. So painting a really negative picture, which wasn't hard for me to imagine, just because this woman already wasn't in her daughter's life. So that's hard for me to fathom. But she also would talk about my husband's dad and stepmom, and she would say awful things about them. Said that he was in the relationship for the money. As soon as he could, he would get out of the relationship.

[Dax Shepard]

He just loves her because she's got a flush toilet.

[Nicholas]

Yeah, no kidding. I was like, I'm not marrying her. I'm marrying you. And he put a toilet in a real toilet while I was there so that I could actually go to the bathroom there because I used to have to go all the way to Target.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God, where the ducks were. So much action's happening at that target.

[Dax Shepard]

I know.

[Nicholas]

A lot happening at that target. That's all background. That's all before the craziness, really. And when I met my husband's daughter, I fell as in love with her as I had with him. There was no question about it. I was in. So we got married pretty quick. I'm happy to play nice about a lot of things. Like when she told me that there was no autism in China because they don't do vaccinations. She told me that my husband had gotten SIDS as a baby from vaccines. And if you know what SIDS is.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, he would be dead.

[Nicholas]

No sense yeah. But I tried not to confront her about things. But when we got married, we wanted Tanya, our daughter, to have some stability and some safety and security. And this was a chance for his.

[Unknown]

Mom to be grandma instead of mom.

[Nicholas]

This is the sweet spot. You get to be the fun one. You get to take a step back and just be grandma. Turns out that's not what she wanted at all. She wanted Tanya desperately. She started pulling some weird tricks where Tanya would be sleeping over with her, and when she got back to us, she would be telling us stories about the sleepover. And things weren't adding up. Like one of the times my husband's ex girlfriend had also spent the night. But we were mad because this confused our 6 year old. And he was like, that isn't really appropriate. And when he confronted his mom, her answer was, you'd only be upset if you still had feelings for her.

[Dax Shepard]

Proved her point.

[Nicholas]

We distanced ourselves a little bit. They were still seeing each other, but not as much. And we just tried to set some boundaries. But the shit hit the fan because we found out the day before Tanya's seventh birthday that I was having twin. When we called his mom to tell her, her response was, you're gonna need me. Not, congratulations, Not. I'm so happy for you. Nothing.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm back in the picture.

[Nicholas]

Yeah. And on Tonya's birthday the next day, suddenly her bio mom called. She hadn't seen her in years. And then within a few weeks, we got notified that bio mom was coming for a visit. We kind of suspected that my husband's mom was involved in getting her down there. We were honest with her. We're like, we're glad you're coming to see Tanya. We're not really on great terms with my husband's mom right now, so we're trying to kind of keep her out of being the middleman on this. It was all well and good. She came, she picked up Tanya that evening rolled around and she didn't bring her home.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, boy.

[Nicholas]

And we were like, where are you? Where is she? And she's like, I'm going to stay the night with your mom. She's really upset. Didn't give us a lot of information, just kept her there. So the next morning, we go to the school and wait. No shit. So they've basically kidnapped her at this point, we had to have the police intervene. The police had to go knock on the door and force them to bring her because they were not cooperating. Within days, we got served papers.

[Dax Shepard]

Grandparents rights.

[Nicholas]

Yes. Tanya's mom was suing us for custody in New Jersey, and my husband's mom was suing us for custody in Florida.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Nicholas]

The icing on the cake was they also called DCF on us.

[Unknown]

Us.

[Nicholas]

And said that we were forcing Tanya to exercise, locking her in her room and threatening to kill her.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God. What the fuck?

[Heidi]

Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

They went for it.

[Nicholas]

They went for it. And the cops would show up for, like, well, child checkups. We had DCF come to the house. Just ridiculously stressful. We were not abusing our daughter. We ended up having to lawyer up.

[Dax Shepard]

And I'm sure you're swimming in cash right now. You're young as hell and you have kids coming. Yeah.

[Nicholas]

Pregnant with twins. We met working at a cafe. Thankfully, we found a badass lawyer. She put them in their place immediately. Thankfully. My parents were actually in town visiting when DCF came for their home visit. So they were able to see. None of it added up. They were able to see how happy she was and adjusted. A warm family surrounding her. So ultimately that got dropped as well.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, you almost gotta be grateful she went so nuclear so that you were justified fast.

[Heidi]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

That's a big blessing.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. You don't have to. To worry if you made a mistake. You did not.

[Nicholas]

Oh, yeah. We all still deal with the traumas from it. My husband has some ptsd. My daughter has some ptsd. It's a good lesson in narcissistic personality disorder and a good lesson in how to set boundaries. And ultimately, my husband's super hot, so it was worth it.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, good. You got three beautiful kids.

[Monica Padman]

We love that.

[Nicholas]

Three beautiful daughters. It's all worth it. It just was a wild ride.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And also good for him. If that's half your genetics and you avoid that, that's an accomplishment.

[Nicholas]

Yeah. He wanted to make it clear he KN wasn't right growing up. He knew he had to get out, but anytime he tried to. Growing up.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. She didn't want to lose control over him. She sounds like someone that would own a chimp. Because this is what they want. They want a child that doesn't grow up.

[Nicholas]

She had two emus when I was there. A cow, a goat, all sorts of birds. A chimp is right up her alley.

[Dax Shepard]

If she can get her hands on 80 grand, I think they're pricey. Luckily, a lot of people are priced out of owning a chimp. Well, I'm glad it all worked out for you.

[Nicholas]

Thank you.

[Dax Shepard]

It's so nice to meet you. And I'm sorry you went through that. And I'M happy for you that it all worked out.

[Nicholas]

Got my beautiful kids and we're good to go.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, good.

[Monica Padman]

Have a great day.

[Dax Shepard]

We'll take care. Bye. Bye.

[Nicholas]

Bye.

[Monica Padman]

Hello. You look so familiar. I don't know why.

[Dax Shepard]

Who do people tell you you look like?

[Unknown]

I've been told Florence Pew one time, but I would be lucky if that was real.

[Monica Padman]

I can see that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, she's okay to look at Florence Pio.

[Unknown]

She's beautiful.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm also watching something right now, though, that look like. We'll get it. It'll simmer in. Kylie, where are you?

[Unknown]

I'm in Dayton, Ohio.

[Dax Shepard]

There we go. Homa Chappelle.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Homa Van Hunt.

[Unknown]

John Legend.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Legend, baby.

[Monica Padman]

You got a lot of good ones.

[Dax Shepard]

Soulful.

[Unknown]

And right by Cedar Point and Kings Island.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. You look a little young to have a mother in law.

[Unknown]

Yes. So this is actually a story about an ex boyfriend's mom. So this was a couple of years ago.

[Dax Shepard]

And that's totally fine.

[Monica Padman]

That counts.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, that definitely counts. Well, please set the stage for us.

[Unknown]

Absolutely. So I met this guy when I started college. It's a smaller college around Dayton, and we started dating as soon as I got there my freshman year. He lived near the college but, like, not on campus. And his mom lived a couple of streets away from him. So we would see her a lot. I don't know if you've ever watched the show. I'm married to a mama's boy or I'm dating a mama's boy. This literally could be that story. That show is crazy.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, I gotta see that.

[Unknown]

Yeah. He was a mama's boy through and through. And that should have been my first red flag. But at the time, I was like, 18 and really stupid and didn't care.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, and it's kind of endearing. You go like, oh, this person loves their mom. They're probably gonna be nice to ladies.

[Monica Padman]

Dax is like, it's endearing, right?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Right. I love my mom. She's here.

[Unknown]

In the beginning, it might have been nice. It just ended up not being that way. So as we got more serious and I moved in with him, she got way more possessive of him to the point where they shared location. And every time he was out to eat with me, she would call crying. So, like, we would have to take her food to her house afterwards or we would just invite her with us. So, like, we didn't go out very often because we were in college and we were poor. But, like, when we did, we had to take.

[Monica Padman]

His mom was She a single mom?

[Unknown]

Yes. Her husband and her had just gotten divorced like a year prior. So it was very fresh. So during COVID this is like two years later, I got laid off from two jobs. I was working 50 hours a week because I wanted to graduate with no debt. But because of that, I was also paying for both of our rents. So when I lost both of my jobs, I was like, I don't know what we're gonna do. So his mom very graciously was like, you can come and stay with me. And I was a little more apprehensive. He was like, yeah, let's do this. And so we did it.

[Dax Shepard]

Home cooked meals, laundry will be done.

[Unknown]

You would think. Yeah, but that's kind of where we're going. So we would rotate cooking. And I noticed very quickly that I just started feeling really sick. I was having the liquid shits, like all of the time. I was losing weight and I was super weak and I could not figure out what was wrong with me.

[Dax Shepard]

And really quick, when you took turns cooking, I thought you and your boyfriend, but you're saying mother in law and you took turns.

[Unknown]

Yeah, he never did anything. He was a mama's boy. He would never be allowed to do anything. So I lost £15 in two months. So I went to visit my mom. I was there for two weeks and I was feeling a little better. I kind of just thought that the sickness that I was having was a lingering side effect of COVID because at the time, like, we really didn't know what. What covet encompassed. So I came back after that two weeks at my mom's house, and started getting sick again, like almost immediately. Was really sick.

[Dax Shepard]

This is nuts.

[Monica Padman]

I know.

[Dax Shepard]

Is boyfriend getting sick? No.

[Unknown]

And every time I tell him, he's like, you know, I think you just need to go to the doctor. We're just chalking this up to Covid. So it was like a couple of weeks later. I am just distraught, like, I can't do this anymore. It's making it hard to work. It's making it hard to go to class. My mom was like, well, have you been avoiding the foods that you're allergic to? And I was like, yeah. When I was 18, I got diagnosed with a nut allergy. It just like came out of nowhere. It's just like a gastrointestinal allergy. No EpiPen, just because again, there's no anaphylaxis. But it was an issue for everything else. So this is when I started to put the pieces together because she knew I had A nut allergy. And she knew that it wasn't, like, an anaphylactic nut allergy. I had found out that instead of using my peanut butter because I use, like, a special brand of peanut butter that doesn't have nuts, she was using real peanut butter when she made brownies and telling me that it was fake peanut butter.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Unknown]

She was putting nut oils in the food and, like, grinding up peanuts and almonds and putting them in the food that we were eating. No, it was insane.

[Dax Shepard]

Wait, how did you find this out?

[Unknown]

I confronted her. I was like, hey, I've been getting really sick, and no one can figure out why. Is there any possibility that there could be trace or cross contaminants with the nuts that you guys eat or the peanut butter you guys eat? And that's when she was like, well, I'm going to be honest. I haven't been using that, and I haven't been catering to your dietary restrictions. And she admitted it fully. Never apologized, never said anything. And she said she was poisoning me because I took her son away from her.

[Monica Padman]

Stop it. She said those words?

[Dax Shepard]

She said that I'm attempting benefit of the doubt where I go, like, she thinks all these young people think they have allergies, and they don't, and she's going to prove it. But no, no, no, no.

[Unknown]

It was the intentional using a food processor to powder.

[Monica Padman]

Holy.

[Dax Shepard]

This is evil.

[Unknown]

It was insane. And I was like, we live here. I haven't taken him anywhere.

[Dax Shepard]

I brought him back. In fact, I returned him.

[Monica Padman]

What did he say?

[Unknown]

That's where it gets worse. He didn't care. He was like, oh, she's going through a lot since her divorce, so that's probably just, like, her way of.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, I hope they're married.

[Monica Padman]

Poisoning is just her way.

[Dax Shepard]

That's her way of saying she loves me. God, too much.

[Monica Padman]

Sick.

[Unknown]

So I moved out very shortly after that, and he came with me.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, he did?

[Monica Padman]

Are you married to him?

[Unknown]

Oh, God, no.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. Oh, my God. I was gonna have some scolding.

[Unknown]

Yeah. I stayed with him for, like, a full year after that. I just didn't eat at his mom's house afterward. And I didn't go over there very often, but it was insane. Fully admitted, it never apologized.

[Dax Shepard]

Did it cross your mind? I wonder if that's illegal.

[Monica Padman]

It's definitely poisoning someone.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, if it's lethal, for sure. But diarrhea, Is there a criminal offense like giving a stranger diarrhea?

[Unknown]

Putting laxatives in their foods? Kind of. Right?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Or advising.

[Monica Padman]

I Don't know. A danger to your wellbeing.

[Dax Shepard]

What was her tone when she admitted it? Like, tough titties, baby.

[Unknown]

You're very nonchalant.

[Monica Padman]

No one talks like that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, Ma non. Sheila.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, yeah, she did.

[Dax Shepard]

She said tough titties.

[Unknown]

She just kind of looked at me and kind of shrugged it off casually, like, oh, yeah, I did that also.

[Dax Shepard]

Ma. Na and Sheila poison people.

[Monica Padman]

No, I know.

[Dax Shepard]

No, it's perfect.

[Monica Padman]

I mean, no wonder she got divorced. This husband. Oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

Probably had diarrhea for years.

[Monica Padman]

He weighed six pounds.

[Unknown]

Yeah, it was crazy. She just did not care at all that she had done it. And neither did he.

[Monica Padman]

That is great story.

[Dax Shepard]

Care.

[Monica Padman]

He sucks.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, he blows. Have you had any updates on him?

[Unknown]

He still lives with his mom and. And it's been four years.

[Monica Padman]

They deserve each other.

[Dax Shepard]

I hope they get married.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, me too. I hope they live happily ever.

[Unknown]

Honestly, I don't think they would think anyone is good enough for them the way that they are good for each other.

[Monica Padman]

It's so gross.

[Unknown]

It was so weird. You should definitely look at that show, though. I married a mom and boy. Because that's 100% what this whole situation felt like. I was the third wheel the whole time in this relationship. When we were together for, like three years.

[Dax Shepard]

You gave me a great plan in case I don't like one of the girl's boyfriends. It's got to find out what they're allergic to. Turn it into a powder.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, but then you'll probably eat it and you'll accidentally also get.

[Dax Shepard]

I'll be. I'll die hoisted by my own petard. I'll have to say to the girls, I'm like, I love Michael. He is a great guy. But, baby, you can't live with someone who's got diarrhea every day for the rest of their lives. You can't do that to yourself. You can carry diapers around for Michael.

[Monica Padman]

And they're like, dad, you have diarrhea all the time.

[Dax Shepard]

Shut up. We're not talking about me. We're talking about Michael.

[Monica Padman]

But you always have diarrhea.

[Dax Shepard]

Hey, now that's talking about it.

[Monica Padman]

You call it honest?

[Dax Shepard]

You're thinking of Aunt Monica. She's the one with diarrhea all the time. I fixed my diarrhea when I stopped eating gluten.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

That is fucking wild. You have a very good attitude about it. If, like, a girlfriend's dad told me.

[Heidi]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I was poisoning you, I would punch him.

[Monica Padman]

I know, I know.

[Dax Shepard]

You had great reaction.

[Monica Padman]

I Know, you saying I didn't steal him from you is like, the last thing I would be thinking is like, trying to assure her that you didn't. You didn't do something wrong.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm like, oh, oh, we're poisoning each other. Okay, now I know you want.

[Monica Padman]

You want to play Poison. I can play Poison Titties.

[Unknown]

I'm like a people pleaser to the core. So I was just trying to figure out how I could get around this without it being super awkward and uncomfortable for everybody for the remainder of our relationship. Because at that time, I really thought that was it. And then obviously, thank God.

[Monica Padman]

Blessing in disguise, guys. You should not have been with him.

[Unknown]

It should have also not taken me another year to figure that out.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, can I ask you a very personal question?

[Unknown]

Sure.

[Dax Shepard]

Was dad a mama's boy?

[Unknown]

My dad?

[Nicholas]

No.

[Unknown]

So it wasn't even, like a pattern thing?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Unknown]

I'm in counseling school now, so, like, looking back at all of these things, I'm like, man, there was something wrong with me there.

[Monica Padman]

No, it takes time to learn these things about yourself, by the way.

[Dax Shepard]

That's the gift of being a counselor is you know what that's like, and you can be non judgmental about people going through that stuff.

[Nicholas]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, that was a great story.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I like that a lot.

[Monica Padman]

Thank you for sharing it. Have a great rest of your day.

[Unknown]

Yeah, you too. Bye. It was nice to meet you.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, nice meeting you. Take care. We are supported by Sonos. Oh, boy, oh, boy. Sonos is my favorite product in my whole life. Life. I'm listening to it all day long. I'm in the gym listening to Sonos. I'm at home, listen, watching TV with my Sonos soundbar. I mean, it's so.

[Monica Padman]

It really changes the whole experience of listening.

[Dax Shepard]

Look, you're listening to the podcast right now, but how are you listening if you're not listening on a Sonos speaker? You don't even know how amazing the dulcet tones of our voices can sound. Sonos is known for having the absolute best sound quality of any speaker on the market. You've got to hear, hear it. And as good as Sonos can make us sound, imagine listening to Pink Floyd on a Sonos speaker or hearing the booming dramatic music in a great action film on a Sonos soundbar. Game changing. Another incredible feature of Sonos, their integrated sound system makes it easy to play anything in any room.

[Monica Padman]

I love that it's easy to use.

[Dax Shepard]

Too, so you can keep your dance party going throughout your whole house. Visit sonos.comdax to learn more. That's sonos.comdax we are supported by Macy's. Macy's is your one stop shop for all things gifting this holiday season. If you have trouble knowing what to give or ask for, Macy's Gift guide is here to help. I love a gift guide, Monica. I need them so much. I'm so bad at this.

[Monica Padman]

Gift guides are important. I mean Macy's is classic trusted brand. Yes. I was on their online store the other day buying something for a family member. I won't say because I don't want to give it away.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. Smart.

[Monica Padman]

It was a gift and you know it is. It's just like classic and homey and everything's great.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. You can shop a curated list and editor's picks for under $25, under $50 and even luxe gift ideas. The Macy's gift guide is also a great way to figure out what you want for the holidays. This is my problem. I can never think of what I want. But they've got. Gifts for her, gifts for him, gifts for home. Spend a little time looking through their hand picked selection and you're sure to find something that catches your eye. Let Macy's be your guide to gifting this holiday season. Check out the Macy's Gift Guide at Macy's for all the gifts you'd like to give and get curated for stress free shopping. Shop now@macy's.com and at a Macy's store near you. We are supported by Klaviyo. Klaviyo helps brands build smarter digital relationships with their customers. And here at Armchair Expert we know a little something about how challenging that can be. Here's how Klaviyo does it. Their unified data and marketing automation platform turns customer data into personalized connections to make every moment count across AI, AI powered email, SMS analytics and more. Klaviyo powers smarter digital relationships for more than 151,000 successful brands including Hedley and Bennett, Fishwife and Dagny Dover. Build smarter digital relationships with your customers. Visit K L A V I y o.com to make every moment count.

[Heidi]

Hello.

[Dax Shepard]

How are you, Nicholas?

[Heidi]

Good, how are you?

[Dax Shepard]

Good. You have quite a collection of. You hang your T shirts.

[Heidi]

I do.

[Dax Shepard]

And is your garage spotless and organized?

[Heidi]

Never.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay. So it's just the wardrobe.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. This looks very nice.

[Heidi]

I do appreciate a hung T shirt and all of my apparel to be hung for the most part. Except for pants. Maybe the condition that my wife has also helps with that. She's a big Fan of order. She comes to your house and you have a crooked painting or a picture or something that's gonna get straightened right out on it.

[Dax Shepard]

Where are you at in the country, Nicholas?

[Heidi]

I live about an hour north of Seattle, so Washington State.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. All right. Set the stage.

[Monica Padman]

Organized wife of yours has a mother you're going to be speaking of.

[Heidi]

She definitely does. She has quite the family. The mother is the tip of the iceberg. I guess. So I have many, many stories that I could probably share that would fit this bill, as I assume everyone who you talk to today probably has many stories.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. It's rare that someone's crazy. Acutely. It's generally a kind of a chronic condition.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Heidi]

100%. For this, we kind of go back to the beginning. My wife and I, we met in high school, but we started dating after high school in 2008. We got married in 2010 when we were about 22. And while that has its own list of drama that came with it, kind of the real unhinging of my wife's mother happened when actually my brother was getting married and when we had found out that we were having a baby. And the reason why that matters is because my brother married my wife's sister.

[Monica Padman]

Boom.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. You know what's great about this? So that's what my grandparents did. And I always thought the coolest thing, my Papa Bob's brother married my Grandma Jolas's sister.

[Heidi]

Yeah. And it works. So it's my wife's half sister. So there's at least some sort of separation there. So fortunately for my brother, he doesn't have to deal with my mother in law.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, gotcha.

[Heidi]

They share a father, same dad. There's four kids total among three different women that we know of. That does keep her off of ancestry.com and other things like that just in case. So that was the start of what really set my wife's mother off was just that my brother and I, we had infiltrated their family in some way.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Heidi]

And now not only did I steal my wife from her mother, but now I've let my brother into this, and now he has stolen another child from this family.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Monica Padman]

Even though it's not her child.

[Heidi]

It's only her child when it's convenient.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. She sees.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You guys trying to outnumber them Exactly.

[Heidi]

Yeah. It's weird that we're brothers marrying sisters. Brothers and sisters, whatever. But it's all still legal and fine and all those good things we found out the week of my brother and wife, sister's wedding that we were going to have a baby. And we didn't want to steal any of that thunder. So we decided, decided, you know, let's not tell anyone. Let's just wait until after the wedding. That way, the congratulations on the day of are all going towards my brother and his new wife. So on the rehearsal wedding the day before, we had found out that for lack of better terms, my grandfather had passed away. He was like the grandfather type in my life. He was the guy that helped me with my first transmission swap, engine swap, doing anything automotive related. He was the guy. He had a big four car shop.

[Dax Shepard]

Ooh, I'm jealous.

[Heidi]

He was the best. We spent so much time with him and it was very sudden and we did not know it was going to happen. So the day of the wedding, everyone's kind of head down, doing their wedding things, trying to be as upbeat about things as they can. My wife, she informs her mom when she arrives, she says, hey, just so you know, their grandfather died last night. It was very sudden. So everyone's kind of in a somber mood just so you can kind of be sensitive to what's going on. She already believes that my family has somehow brainwashed my wife. So that's lingering in the background as we start moving forward with this day from there. She's mad at my parents because they didn't greet her with these warm, open arms. It was kind of like, hey, how you doing? Look, we're still doing our thing. Also trying to pay attention to wedding court. Nothing that would be crazy for any of us, but for someone who is unstable, it's very offensive. So then she found out that she was seated in the second row of the ceremony. So again, she's not the mother of the bride. She was there during some childhood stuff, but not till late.

[Dax Shepard]

And is it safe to assume that she is no longer with the father of these two? Or are they.

[Heidi]

That's like a whole nother thing. Okay, yeah, they lived in the same house, but he lived in the basement in his weird dungeon that no one was allowed in. And she lived on the main floor.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, okay.

[Heidi]

They were roommates at that time. And then shortly after this, they end up separating, so they're no longer together. So once she found out that she was seated in the second row so disrespectfully, she made a nice scene for the room to let us all know that she was being treated poorly and in her words, a second class citizen.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, okay.

[Heidi]

That second class citizen quote comes up often.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, we're hearing her story, she feels like a second class citizen.

[Heidi]

Yes. She storms out, she leaves. We don't know if she's coming to the wedding or not. Fortunately, she. She doesn't, which is great. You know, we all have a good time at the wedding. We all go home, everyone's happy. A couple days go by and my wife decides, hey, we gotta talk to my mom and let her know we're having a baby. But how do we want to do this? As 22 year olds, we're trying to figure out how do we manipulate the situation so she doesn't freak out and just yell at us because that's what's coming and not necessarily for the pregnancy. But for whatever reason, she wants the list of how she was mistreated. So we decided, let's go get breakfast at this place near where she lives. It's like this little small cafe. And we'll get breakfast there because no one's going to scream at us in public. She'll have to put on a face because she likes to come across as being someone who is, well to do.

[Dax Shepard]

This is a scene in the movie where you got to meet the killer, but you want to meet them in public so they can't do the killing in public.

[Heidi]

When she first walks in, she thinks we're there to commiserate about how she was mistreated at the wedding. We kind of explained to her that, hey, you know, we're not here to talk about the wedding. We want to talk about something else. So before we could even break the news to her, she pulls out a yellow legal pad and she starts rifling off her grievances. Grievances. Like it's a Costanza airing of grievances. Yeah, it's one thing after the other. She's talking in circles. Some of it's made up, some of it's just her augmented truth of what had happened during specific events over the last at least two years.

[Dax Shepard]

I think it's also worth remembering out loud that it wasn't your wedding. You didn't design the seating chart. This is your brother and her at one time, stepdaughter's wedding. You're like telling the wrong people.

[Heidi]

Exactly. And that's kind of what we were trying to do, is just say we're not part of this. You can deal with that if you'd like. Trying to bring down the hysteria that's unfolding, but that only feeds the flames. And she's getting louder. The whole restaurant is quiet and just watching this woman on her knees, half standing like In a booth. Finally, after she reads through her list, she gets through all of her grievances, My wife decides, okay, now's the time to share with her the news. And what I remember in the moment, and we differ on this, is that I physically kind of reached to block her hands from her purse because she wants to pull out a onesie that we had bought for her. That said, says, what happens to grandma's house? Stays at grandma's house. My kids have never been to grandma's house, so that didn't work out. Whatever happens there, she's alone. But anyway, so she whips out the onesie. My mother in law proceeds to rip the onesie out of her hand. She's shouting, oh, well, isn't that great?

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Heidi]

She shouts across the restaurant for the server to bring her a box for her food that had just arrived. She knew I was paying for the meal, and so she wasn't gonna leave without that food. She was leaving.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay, okay.

[Heidi]

So she loads up, leaves. And that was a pivotal moment in our relationship with her, where we're like, okay, maybe we're not gonna do this anymore. Maybe this isn't worth all of the extra effort. And so that's when the harassment from her mom kind of started. Prior, it was more like I would come home from work, my wife would be crying, and I'd be like, what happened? Well, I just got the phone with my mom. She's mad that I haven't visited her in a day or since the weekend. In those moments, I would tell her mom, like, hey, you can't call her just to make her cry. And trying to be in between the two of them, which nowadays, you know, if there's ever anything with her mom, it's not something I dismiss and say like, you deal with it on your own. It's more of like, I don't want to get in between it. So where it looks like I am blocking that relationship.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, you think you learn pretty quickly. It's not helping.

[Heidi]

Exactly. That was all before telling her we're having a baby. And so after that, I was like, you know what? I shouldn't be the one doing that anymore. Because it's just another excuse for her to say that I'm holding you captive or that my family has you locked away in this tower somewhere. So this is when she proceeds to nonstop call my phone, my wife's phone, our work, my parents. She's sending texts from random numbers. She's sending letters from zip codes that are not near us to my Parents and to us with threats.

[Dax Shepard]

What was the vibe of the threats?

[Heidi]

A majority of what she would send to my parents would be, how could you do this to my daughter? Like, you're keeping her from me. Even though we didn't live with my parents or anything. Like they weren't doing anything.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah.

[Heidi]

They were just really nice and helpful to us when we were first buried. But then what turned for us was she would start to mention her grandmother.

[Monica Padman]

Rights the second time this has come up. This is crazy.

[Heidi]

Maybe it's a thing then. Because where I was working, I had someone nearby who was a lawyer. It just freaked me out. I was like, what does that mean? Could she try to take our kid? Because that was kind of the implication from some of the letters and texts and phone calls we get from her is that you guys are having a baby, but you won't be able to keep that baby from me. That was terrifying. And so this person that we knew who was a lawyer was like, you guys should just try to go get a no contact order. That'll give you at least a year for her to legally not be allowed to. I mean, first of all, like harassing enough at work. And I worked in the food industry at the time. So like we had to unplug the phone to the restaurant.

[Nicholas]

Oh.

[Heidi]

Because we just nonstop praying.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[Heidi]

So we decided to go down that path. And so my wife, she did all of the submissions. I didn't want to be the one who was petitioning for a no contact order against my mother in law. Six months pregnant. We go to court. She gives her statement on theme with the organization in the closet. She has a binder full of every voicemail ever left, all transcribed.

[Monica Padman]

Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

She's the wrong person to threaten.

[Heidi]

Yes. Every document has been photocopied. We have like witness statements on things. We gave all that to the judge. So she's going through her thing saying, I don't know what's going on, but she won't leave us alone. Essentially, her mom gets up there and then proceeds to talk in circles. Eventually she's screaming at the judge because the judge isn't doing what she wants her to do. That's not going over well.

[Dax Shepard]

I bet it would be hard to contain a smile if I were you at that point.

[Heidi]

100%.

[Monica Padman]

But you don't feel alone now. Somewhere somebody else sees how crazy this is.

[Heidi]

Not just somebody else, but somebody else outside of our bubble.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

And a judge.

[Heidi]

Yeah. So one of her big statements. So she had somehow found out. I don't know, through social media, through other people who knew us, that my wife wanted to have a home birth. That's what she wanted for me. She's the one having the kid. I'm just there to. What do you want me to do? You want to have the baby at home? Fine. You want to have the baby underwater? I don't care.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Heidi]

Makes you happy.

[Monica Padman]

That's correct. While skydiving for a husband to say, I'll do whatever you want.

[Heidi]

Her big thing was she thought that my mother, in particular, through her brainwashing tactics, had convinced my wife that a home birth was the only way to have, like, a good delivery and that there's no pain with home birth or something crazy. And in reality. So I have a younger sister and an older brother. My mom had all three of us in a hospital. She had epidurals with my brother and my sister, and she did not have an epidural with me. And to this day, like last weekend, we were at their house for family dinner, like we do every weekend, and she always brings up how big my head was.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure, sure. Memorable.

[Heidi]

She would not be the one necessarily advocating for the home birth.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Heidi]

Even the judge is like, that has nothing to do with why we're here. We were granted that no contact order. That no contact order for a year was like a sigh, relief. If she violates it, we can call the police, they'll have her arrested, and then it's legal trouble for her. We moved, and we just would start spotting her mom's car near where we had moved to. She should have had no idea where we had moved to. Even to this day, we had moved in the last two years, and we've seen her drive by our new house.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Heidi]

Yeah. We probably haven't spoken to her in four years. At point now, she's always kind of keeping tabs on where we are. So we get a phone call shortly after my son was born, because my wife would go on walks around the neighborhood. So six months later, we're only halfway through this no contact order. It's one of her mom's friends saying, hey, your mom had a heart attack. She's in the hospital. You guys need to get down there as soon as possible. She's in critical condition. Initially, we're like, okay, let's take a step back and think about this. Part of me is like, well, if this is true, we can't just let this go. But also, if she. She's just trying to get us to show up, I wouldn't Put that past her.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, a little test.

[Heidi]

We would be the ones in violation of the no contact order. So even if we go see her, she won't get in trouble for that. We would. So we call the hospital first. And they're, as I'm sure you know, they're not very forthcoming. Well, I'm asking a nurse. We just need to know because of xyz, kind of lay out the situation. No contact order. And she goes, okay, let me get a doctor and let them decide what they want to tell you. Doctor gets on the phone, I tell her the whole thing again. And the doctor goes, okay. There was never a heart attack. She has heartburn and gas. She's going home shortly.

[Dax Shepard]

She's farting.

[Heidi]

Yes, that was a dodge bullet. Part of the no contact order, if we did want to try to resume relationship, was to seek counseling, which we had done. I had been a part of it at times. I had not been a part of it at times. They've done counseling kind of off and on for years after that. Even those sessions would get a little wild. There's one session where the counselor just left.

[Dax Shepard]

Filed her own no contact form against both of them.

[Heidi]

We got a major apology from her later saying, like, that was not okay. But I've never in my life been so fed up with a patient before that I had to leave the room.

[Monica Padman]

Holy shit. That's validating.

[Heidi]

Yeah. There's been some wild things that have happened over the years since then, for sure. Like I said I could go on. That was our first year of marriage, our first kid, our first no contact order.

[Monica Padman]

Lots of first.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, congratulations. So many first. Okay, so here's what's sad. I think kids are pieces of. Because they refuse to acknowledge their parents are human beings. That's what we do as kids. But then what parents do, which is is they refuse to acknowledge that the child is an adult and a real person. So it's like they keep treating everything like it's cute or they don't know what they're doing or they know better. It's like these two things we both do on both sides.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And what's heartbreaking is what's obvious is she's dying to be in her daughter's life and she's doing everything possible to ensure that won't happen.

[Monica Padman]

And she's unstable. I mean, it's just hard when people are unstable.

[Heidi]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

It's hard to argue with us. They say a crazy man can't out.

[Monica Padman]

Crazy. Crazy.

[Dax Shepard]

Is that a news?

[Monica Padman]

Some people say that I like that.

[Dax Shepard]

You can't out crazy. Crazy. You can't fight crazy with crazy.

[Monica Padman]

That's one version.

[Dax Shepard]

Does it make your wife sad or is she at peace with that?

[Heidi]

She kind of goes back and forth. We have a 10 year old daughter and a 12 year old son and her dad is a whole another story. The father in law story. I'll probably write back. He's never met our kids and he has no interest in that. I guess I just don't know how you get to that point where you choose to be right in your mind over having that relationship with your children and your grandchildren.

[Monica Padman]

I know, I know, I know.

[Dax Shepard]

I've had this exact moment with my kids where I've realized in the moment, okay, one of us has to change for this to be a good relationship. And I realized, oh, my dad had that same realization probably, but he's like, yeah, I gotta change this kid. But you know, I was like, yeah, it's not going to be her. It's not going to be a little kid. It's going to be me. I've got to adjust. A lot of folks don't make that decision though.

[Monica Padman]

Regardless of whether, you know, I can't really have this person in my life, it's still a loss.

[Dax Shepard]

Although not for you because it's not your mother as nice as in.

[Heidi]

For me it is heartbreaking for my kids. And all we've told them is just like Grammys hasn't been nice to your mom and until she can choose to make good choices with your mom and work out whatever issues they have, she's not going to be coming around. But we really hope that she decides to make the necessary changes and steps to have that good relationship. Relationship. So you guys can have a relationship with her.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, that's great.

[Heidi]

Like you said, you can't out crazy. Crazy.

[Monica Padman]

Well, thank you for sharing.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, Nicholas, that was great. And sorry to your wife. So unfortunate. All right, well, nice meeting you. Take care.

[Heidi]

Bye.

[Dax Shepard]

Whoa, whoa.

[Monica Padman]

That's a lot to deal with. That's a lot to handle.

[Dax Shepard]

A lot to deal with. A lot to handle.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

It's so stressful.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, it is.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Love you.

[Heidi]

Love you. Do you want to sing a tune or something? We know a theme song.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay, great. We don't have a theme song for this new show, so here I go, go, go. We're going to ask some random questions and with the help of arm cherries we'll get some suggestions on the fire rhyme. Dish on the fly Rindish. Enjoy. Follow armchair expert on the wondry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short [e-mail] survey in.

[Unknown]

A quiet suburb, a community is shattered by the death of a beloved wife and mother. But this tragic loss of life quickly turns into something even darker. Her husband had tried to hire a hitman on the dark web to kill her, and she wasn't the only target. Because buried in the depths of the Internet is the Kill List, a cache of chilling documents containing names, photos, addresses and specific instructions for people's murders. This podcast is the true story of how I ended up in a race against time to warn those who lives were in danger. And it turns out convincing a total stranger someone wants them dead is not easy. Follow Kill List on the Wandri app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Kill List and more. Exhibit C True crime shows like Morbid early and ad free right now by joining Wondrous plus check out Exhibit C in the Wandery app for all your true crumb listening.