Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard

Episode: Cas Holman (on being playful)
Date: October 29, 2025

Overview

In this lively and insightful episode, Dax Shepard and Monica Padman sit down with Cas Holman, renowned play designer and former RISD professor, to explore the transformative power of play for both children and adults. Holman, whose work ranges from designing innovative playground equipment to authoring the book Playful: How Play Shifts Our Thinking, Inspires Connection, and Sparks Creativity, shares her journey, philosophy, and practical strategies for re-inviting play into daily life. The conversation dances through Holman’s unconventional career path, her perspectives on creativity, the science of play, and practical tips for maintaining playfulness as adults.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Cas Holman’s Journey: From Art to Play Design

• Childhood and Education:

  • Grew up in Northern California, largely unsupervised—a true "latchkey kid" ([08:53]).
  • Struggled in traditional academic settings despite being "smart"; found high school and college challenging due to lack of interest in rigid structures ([09:07]).
  • Attended UC Santa Cruz, initially studying sciences before dropping out to work in the Galapagos Islands, then returning to graduate with a focus on fine art, sculpture, and feminist theory ([09:54]–[11:39]).

• Unconventional Career Path:

  • Worked as a chef in San Francisco before entering office work, eventually drawn to design via a high-end furniture company ([11:43]–[17:17]).
  • Early forays into performance art and drag—including an appearance on Maury Povich—highlighted themes of gender play and identity ([17:49]–[21:03]).
  • Graduate studies at Cranbrook Academy of Art, which eschewed grades and formal classes in favor of collaborative, open-ended making ([21:48]–[22:41]).

2. Designing for Play—Philosophy and Practice

• Big Blue Blocks & Rigamajig:
  • Developed Big Blue Blocks for a South Street Seaport playground, inspired by adventure playgrounds and the concept of giving agency to children ([23:41]–[25:49]).
  • On open-ended toys: “What if the playground itself is the thing that kids are designing by playing there?” ([24:42])
  • Rigamajig, a system of wooden parts and connectors, encourages collaboration and finding structure within open-ended systems ([31:22]–[31:45]).
• Design Principles:
  • Advocates for being “formally agnostic”—focus on the function and experience, not the object’s archetype ([26:17]–[27:08]).
  • Encourages designing for discovery and allowing space for children (and adults) to define their own experience: “Let the kids discover this” ([05:06]).

3. Theories and Types of Play

• Diversity in Play:
  • Highlights that play is not “one size fits all.” Different personalities are satiated by different types of play—some crave structure, others freedom ([30:10]–[31:22]).
  • Cas Holman: “Part of what happens when we are encouraged or allowed to free play as children is that we are in touch with what do I need right now, what do I want to do right now?” ([30:27]).
• Play Types for Children and Adults:
  • Discusses 12 types of play, ranging from rough-and-tumble, creative, pretend, locomotor, and communicative play.
  • Introduces deep play and misbehavior play for adults—where adults confront fears, break taboos, or play with roles and behaviors ([40:10]–[44:30]).
  • “Play doesn’t always look like big gestures of joy. … it’s confronting fears in a way that’s safe—sometimes it’s about working through real stuff” ([40:16]).
• Role of Constraints:
  • Debunks myth that free play means no rules. Meaningful play often arises from self-imposed or material constraints ([31:22]–[31:45]).
  • “You start with no constraints, and then you find your own based on what you need. … If anything’s an option, then everything’s an option, which is totally overwhelming and absolutely paralyzing” ([30:27]).

4. Science and Social Dimensions of Play

• Cognitive and Psychological Benefits:
  • References research showing play improves problem-solving, resilience, and well-being.
  • College students who played with music and puzzles before a test scored significantly higher than those who sat in silence ([42:03]–[43:22]).
  • Rats and college student studies: Enriched environments (plenty of play and socialization) lead to healthier, more engaged, and more resilient individuals ([41:32]–[43:22]).
• Play as Resistance:
  • Play is not frivolous–it is a vital tool for resilience and resistance, especially in marginalized communities ([58:01]).
  • “Play isn’t a thing we do to become resilient. Play is the resistance. By playing, we are continuing to push back on anything that tells us that we need to not be human.” ([57:17])
  • Highlights how queerness, protest, and surviving adversity foster strong drives toward playfulness ([59:01]).

5. Adult Play: Barriers and Reclaiming Joy

• Obstacles to Adult Play:
  • Adulthood often means internalizing productivity, perfectionism, and seriousness—barriers to play ([45:00]–[45:54]).
  • “We have just learned to not play … Growing up means growing out of playing” ([46:54]).
• Alcohol, Inhibition, and Substitution:
  • Adults often use alcohol as a shortcut to uninhibited playfulness; Cas and Dax discuss seeking playful states without substances ([46:06]–[47:58]).
• Conditions for Play:
  • “Embrace possibility, release judgment, and reframe success” as keys to adult free play ([52:17]).
  • Play can be brought into any context—even spreadsheets can be playful if approached creatively ([55:06]).
  • The importance of social play, daydreaming, attention play (mindfully engaging with the world), and giving oneself permission are highlighted ([48:05]–[50:40]).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Design:

  • “In life, sometimes you are confronted by things that you don’t know what to do with, and you kind of, like, can flow with it. So why not unexpected?” — Cas Holman ([05:21])
  • “Let the kids discover this.” — Cas Holman, on refusing to color-code magnets, favoring discovery over instruction ([05:06])

• On Play and Constraints:

  • “You start with no constraints, and then you find your own based on what you need. … If anything’s an option, then everything’s an option, which is totally overwhelming and absolutely paralyzing.” — Cas Holman ([30:27])
  • “The thing about unstructured play for kids and open-ended play for kids is they learn how to find and make their own structure.” ([31:22])

• On Social Influences and Shame:

  • “Growing up means growing out of playing. … plague becomes really shameful for a lot of people. So we have to unlearn all of that in order to get back there.” — Cas Holman ([46:54])

• On Play as Resistance:

  • “Continuing to play is, in fact, also resistance.” — Cas Holman ([57:17])

• On Adult Play and Success:

  • “You can be doing your job playfully. Innovation comes from play.” — Cas Holman ([53:52])
  • “Maybe even starting with, like, we can’t fail at this. We got together, we’re here. Failure isn’t really even a possibility.” — Dax Shepard ([56:15])

• On Letting Others Define Their Play:

  • “This is how we understand each other. … We learn about each other through play.” — Cas Holman, on adapting to different play styles ([63:56])

• On the Value of Play at Work:

  • “There is some assumption in the workplace that having fun and playing while you are productive is not the right vibe. … What is the output of this happy, playful person?” — Dax Shepard ([66:28])

Highlighted Segments & Timestamps

• Cas’ career journey & performance art: [09:00] – [21:00]
• Designing Big Blue Blocks & Rigamajig; agency in play: [23:41] – [25:49]
• On constraints and structure in play: [30:27] – [31:45], [31:22]
• Theories of play, types for kids and adults: [39:26] – [44:30]
• Research on play and cognitive benefits: [42:03] – [43:22]
• Barriers to play in adulthood; alcohol and inhibition: [45:00] – [47:58]
• Advice for cultivating adult playfulness: [52:17] – [56:15]
• Play as social resistance and survival: [57:17] – [59:16]

Final Thoughts

The episode closes with reminders that play is essential—not frivolous—and its benefits only multiply over a lifetime, whether you are solving engineering problems, resisting adversity, or just seeking daily joy. Cas Holman’s compelling stories and philosophies offer a call to prioritize playful experimentation, both for ourselves and for future generations.

“I promise you, not a single human being will be on their deathbed and go, ‘I shouldn’t have played so much while I was here.’ That sentence will never come out of a dying person’s mouth.”
— Dax Shepard ([68:20])

Recommended: Playful: How Play Shifts Our Thinking, Inspires Connection, and Sparks Creativity by Cas Holman.

Note: Episode includes delightful banter, hands-on toying with Holman’s designs, and practical, relatable stories throughout.