Colleen Cutcliffe (on the microbiome)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard

Episode: Colleen Cutcliffe (on the microbiome)
Date: February 18, 2026

---

Episode Overview

This episode features Dr. Colleen Cutcliffe, a microbiome scientist and health advisory board member at Johns Hopkins, and CEO of Pendulum, a company focused on scientifically rigorous probiotics and prebiotics. Dax Shepard and co-host Monica Padman delve into the science, implications, and personal stories behind the microbiome, covering its effects on metabolism, mental health, public health, and more. The conversation is equal parts accessible science, personal anecdotes, and lively banter, making the topic relevant for anyone interested in health, aging, diet, and wellness.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Is the Microbiome and Why Does It Matter?

• Definition and Scope:
  • The human microbiome comprises trillions of bacteria, viruses, and fungi living in and on us—especially in our digestive system.
  • “We’ve really co-evolved with them from day one. … they live inside you, on you, in all your nasal passages. … For the most part, they’re actually really beneficial.” (C, 18:05)
• Critical Role in Health:
  • Microbes make up about 1–3% of a person’s body mass (2–6 lbs).
  • The microbiome’s collective DNA outnumbers human DNA by a factor of 100.
  • Loss or alteration of this ecosystem—often due to antibiotics or over-sterilization—can contribute to long-term health issues.

2. Microbiome Disruption: Antibiotics, Diet, and Modern Lifestyle

• Antibiotics:
  • Early exposure (especially under age 2) increases risk for obesity, diabetes, allergies, asthma, ADHD, and even depression.
  • “If you’re under two and you’re on a lot of antibiotics, you’re not only more prone to obesity and diabetes, you’re also more prone to allergies, depression, asthma, ADHD, Crohn's, Celiac disease.” (C, 16:31)
• Diet:
  • Lack of fiber and polyphenols (found in berries, olive oil, dark chocolate) means crucial microbes starve.
  • Modern, processed diets make it hard to rebuild or maintain a robust microbiome.
• Other Depleting Factors: Stress, aging, travel/circadian rhythm changes, and hormonal shifts like menopause.

3. Animal Microbiomes and Evolutionary Insights

• Animal Comparisons:
  • Digestive symbioses are common; eg., hyenas' mouths have evolved to chemically neutralize rancid meat.
  • Story: A scientist bit by a hyena declined antibiotics, trusting the animal’s “clean” oral microbiome—and recovered fine. (C, 21:02)
• Human Uniqueness:
  • Humans are unusually disgusted by feces compared to other primates, likely due to risks from communal living.

4. Fecal Microbiota Transplants ("Crapsules") & C. Diff

• Treating C. Diff:
  • Fecal transplants often have a >95% success rate, far outpacing antibiotics for recurrent C. diff infections. (C, 24:25)
  • “Flooding with competitors, that's the whole thing, is incredibly effective … like a 97% success rate.” (C, 25:13)
• Societal Stigma:
  • Strong cultural aversion still delays adoption of this highly effective therapy.

5. Microbiome and Metabolism: GLP-1, Obesity, Diabetes

• Mechanism:
  • Certain microbes stimulate GLP-1, the same pathway targeted by diabetes/weight loss drugs.
  • People with obesity/diabetes often lack these key strains.
  • “There are two strains that we know to date that are able to directly stimulate your body’s natural GLP-1 … that mechanism is known.” (C, 25:45)
• Why Microbes Go Missing:
  • Antibiotics, poor diet, stress, aging—all can result in critical strains disappearing, leading to lowered GLP-1 signaling and poor blood sugar control.
• Personal Relevance:
  • Dax reflects, “When I was 26, I smoked two packs … ate every meal at 7/11 … I felt pretty fucking good ... Now I have an autoimmune condition and food allergies … my microbes were banging back then.” (A, 28:07)

6. Science & Claims Around Probiotics (and Pendulum’s Work)

• Probiotic Efficacy:
  • Most over-the-counter probiotics don’t survive stomach acid or reach the lower gut.
  • Pendulum uses enteric-coated, time-release capsules so that specific strains survive to the colon.
  • Akkermansia muciniphila: a strain key to gut lining, food sensitivity, and metabolic health; mostly absent as we age, but can be supplemented.
  • “We were the first company to manufacture and bring Akkermansia to market ... only ours actually has it.” (C, 32:46)

7. The Gut-Brain Axis: Mental Health Connections

• Neurotransmitter Production:
  • The gut makes serotonin, dopamine, GABA, and more—sending signals via the vagus nerve to the brain.
  • “Your gut makes a ton of neurotransmitters ... they can literally send those through the vagus nerve to the brain.” (C, 44:51)
• Behavioral Studies:
  • Animal studies show Akkermansia supplementation rivals Prozac for improving stress/anxiety behaviors.
  • “When you give [stressed mice] Akkermansia or Prozac, they look like the healthy mouse again ... even in some cases [Akkermansia] was better than Prozac.” (C, 47:47)

8. Birth, Early Life, and Microbiome Formation

• Seeding the Microbiome:
  • Vaginal birth and breastfeeding provide critical initial microbes and prebiotics; C-sections or formula feeding may result in less diverse microbiomes.
  • “The first real seeding … is delivery through the vaginal canal … then breast milk. … If you’re born by C-section, you don’t get that first seeding.” (C, 37:51)
  • Breast milk contains prebiotics and, uniquely, Akkermansia.
• Resilience and Recovery:
  • “You are constantly changing it [the microbiome], and you can constantly change it for the better. … Not like your genes.” (C, 43:57)

9. Practical Takeaways for Listeners

• Building & Maintaining Microbiome Health:
  • Supplementation may jumpstart a depleted system, but ongoing support comes from a diet rich in fiber and polyphenols.
  • Try interventions for 90 days: “If you feel a difference (usually food cravings, sustained energy), great—if not, it's something else.” (C, 55:15)
• Mindful Consumption:
  • Most marketing around “gut health” is not backed by rigorous science.
  • “Do it for 90 days, get the strains in there, and if you can eat the food that feeds them, you’re good to go … You don’t have to take this every day for life.” (C, 53:13)

10. Microbiome in Public Health

• 88% of Americans are metabolically unhealthy—diet and current medical approaches aren't reversing these trends alone.
• Microbiome interventions—which can change metabolic, immune, and inflammatory profiles—represent a promising new tool.
• “That might be a tool … Even for someone like Halle Berry—regimented, healthy, but she benefited from microbiome intervention.” (C, 54:59)

---

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Over-Sterilization:
  “It's the epitome of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Right? You might isolate the single microbe you want to get rid of at the expense of 9,000 that are good.” — Dax (A), 18:45

• On GLP-1 and Obesity Drugs:
  “Your natural body system … that mechanism is known, it's very much linked to obesity.” — Colleen (C), 26:27

• On Resilience and Aging:
  “A healthy gut is a resilient gut. … You had the most resilient gut, then you could do all kinds of things that were assaulting it … and be fine.” — Colleen (C), 28:38

• On Shame and Health:
  “We’re a social primate, so hardwired for shame … any kind of shortcoming we have is like, it must be me. … Even this psoriatic arthritis … it’s got to be my fault.” — Dax (A), 37:13

• On Birth and Breastfeeding:
  “That’s the first seeding. Most babies … go straight to breast milk. So then breast milk becomes the second. And if you’re born by C-section, you don’t get that first seeding.” — Colleen (C), 38:03

• On Microbiome as a Changing System:
  “You can constantly change it, and you can constantly change it for the better. … The microbiome, you can change.” — Colleen (C), 43:57

• On Probiotics & Industry:
  “We’re the only probiotics company the Mayo Clinic has invested in … over 30,000 healthcare practitioners.” — Colleen (C), 62:40

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Topic | |-----------|--------------------------------------------| | 04:54 | Intro to Colleen, microbiome basics | | 16:31 | Antibiotics, early microbiome disruption | | 21:02 | Animal microbiomes: hyena story | | 24:02 | Fecal transplants (“Crapsules”), C. diff | | 25:45 | Microbes, GLP-1, obesity and diabetes | | 28:07 | Dax’s personal microbiome story | | 32:46 | Akkermansia: production & real vs. fake | | 44:51 | Gut-brain axis, mental health connections | | 47:47 | Akkermansia vs. Prozac (mouse study) | | 55:15 | Public health, 90-day try-and-see advice | | 62:40 | Pendulum's clinical acceptance, Mayo Clinic|

---

Tone & Language

• Conversational, witty, mixing science with humor and personal anecdotes.
• Dax is self-deprecating, curious, and not afraid to push for clear or “dumb” questions.
• Monica brings a relatable “everywoman” perspective.
• Colleen is knowledgeable, approachable, and practical—dispelling myths without excessive hype.

---

Memorable Moments

• Science story: The hyena bite (21:02) — a scientist refuses antibiotics after being bitten, confidently trusting the animal’s oral microbiome, and is fine.
• Real talk on “shit eating” in animal behavior versus human disgust (23:00).
• Dax’s comedic analogy about his former “trashcan” lifestyle and resistant youth gut (28:07).
• Monica and Colleen’s reflections on generational and cultural identity (9:00–11:00).

---

Actionable Takeaways

• Build gut resilience with fiber, polyphenols (berries, olive oil, dark chocolate), and (if needed) quality probiotics—especially after antibiotics.
• Don’t stress about early life “misses”: If you/your kids had C-sections, formula, or antibiotics, the microbiome can still be nurtured and improved throughout life.
• Be wary of probiotics hype: Not all products work; look for science (not just marketing) and forms that survive the stomach.
• Test interventions: Try things (like supplementation or dietary changes) for 90 days to see if you notice changes in cravings or sustained energy.

---

Listener Utility

This episode demystifies the microbiome, connecting it to everyday concerns (weight, mental health, childhood exposures), and arms listeners with both skepticism (about marketing) and optimism (“it’s constantly changing, and you can make it better”). The science is supported by memorable stories, clear analogies, and grounded, practical advice.

---

For More

• Pendulum Website: pendulumlife.com for more about the company and products
• Book Recommendation: I Contain Multitudes by Ed Yong for accessible microbiome science

---

All quotes attributed with speaker name and [MM:SS] timestamp where possible.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. Experts on Expert. I'm Dax Shepard. I'm joined by Monica Padman.

[B]

Hi.

[A]

Long time coming. We really are interested in this. For people who've been listening to the show for years, there was a period six years ago where we were obsessed with getting a fecal transplant from our friend Amy. And it took us six years to get someone who actually knows about this space. And her name is Colleen Cutcliffe and she is a microbiome scientist and health advisory board member for Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health.

[B]

Very prestigious school. The one you don't like to say because there's an S at the end.

[A]

Of john, plural and plural.

[B]

There was something funny on the Internet. I forget exactly what it was, but it was like people have trouble with pronouns, but they're able to say Ruth's Chris.

[A]

That's hard for me too.

[B]

It's hard.

[A]

Yeah, it's too, yeah. At any rate, very prestigious, as we know. And she has a company, you'll hear about it, called Pendulum, that is making probiotics and prebiotics and with a much different degree of oversight.

[B]

Yeah, like, does Ruth own Chris? Like Chris.

[A]

Ruth's Chris.

[B]

Like Ruth's son Chris, but they didn't say son.

[A]

Right. Or maybe like Chris was a popular cut of steak and Ruth did a perfect, you know, Ruth's Chris. This was in the teens and now no one, no one calls any cut a steak. I mean, but yeah, what other. What shy of that would make sense?

[B]

I don't know.

[C]

Do you want to know the answer?

[A]

Yes. So it's fun.

[C]

It was named after its founder, Ruth Fertel, who purchased an existing restaurant called Chris Steakhouse.

[B]

Oh, that makes sense.

[A]

I feel like If I bought McDonald's and it was Dax's McDonald's, exactly.

[B]

Okay, we solved that.

[A]

Please enjoy. Oh, let me just say this is. We all hear a lot about microbiome. We're going to hear about all these incredible microbes in your digestive system that do so many things. It's fascinating beyond belief the things that we are linking now to certain ailments that are microbiome derived. There's a very exciting future ahead for all of us. Please enjoy. Colleen Cutcliffe. We are supported by quints. There's something to be said for clothes that just work. Not trendy, not flashy, just well made pieces that hold up day after day. That's what Quince gets, right. They make everyday essentials with premium materials. Organic cotton sweaters, polos, lighter jackets. The kind of stuff that looks good season after season. And here's the thing. They cut out the middlemen by working directly with top factories. So you're not paying brand markup, you're just paying for quality.

[B]

I really love Quint. It's becoming startling. I've been walking around, I ask people if I like their clothes.

[A]

Sure, sure.

[B]

You gotta put yourself out there. And nine times outta 10 these days, it's from Quint.

[A]

Yeah, I just got asked by the fashionista herself, Nicole, what size I work. She's getting her husband something from Quint.

[B]

Amazing.

[A]

Quince only partners with factories that meet rigorous standards for craftsmanship and ethical production. These pieces are built for daily wear, the kind of clothing that becomes part of your routine because it's reliable. Refresh your wardrobe with quince. Go to quince.comdax for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I n c e.comDax Free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.comDax this podcast is brought to you by Squarespace, the all in one website platform designed to help you stand out and succeed online. When we were building the Armchair Expert website, Rob actually used Squarespace to get it up and running, which was a smart choice because they've got everything you need in one place to create something that actually looks professional. What really stands out is their blueprint AI feature. It's like having a design assistant that helps you build a site that doesn't look like every other cookie cutter template out there. Answer a few questions about what you're trying to do, and it creates something that actually fits your vision. If you're someone who offers services, whether that's coaching, consulting, creative work, whatever, Squarespace handles all the business stuff too. Payment processing, scheduling, client management. No more juggling five different platforms just to get paid for what you do. The whole thing is designed so you can focus on your actual work instead of wrestling with website tech, which, let's be honest, most of us would rather avoid. So head to squarespace.comdax for a free trial. And when you're ready to Launch, use code DAX to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

[C]

He's an unchang. He's an object. Tell me what you know about the microbiome.

[A]

Well, I read I contain multitudes.

[C]

That's a pretty sciency book.

[A]

Yeah, Ed Yong's book.

[B]

We like him.

[A]

We love him.

[B]

Do you have a tissue? Over there. I'm so sorry. I just spilled and I don't want to let it soak, you know how it goes.

[A]

Are you coming in from San Francisco?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And are you well versed in LA or.

[C]

No, my husband grew up here. He grew up in Palos Verdes, so I know that a little bit.

[B]

Yeah, he is good for him.

[C]

Yeah, it's really nice over there. But other than that, I don't know a lot.

[A]

There's also that incredibly interesting community. They've been studying for a long time. Time. Do you know about that? In Palos Veris, there's like a retirement community. They have incredible data. The whole community agreed to be a part of some long term study. So there's like a lot of gerontology studies happening in Palos Veris.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

I wish I could remember the name.

[C]

Of the neighbor part of them.

[A]

And what's he up to? What's your husband do?

[C]

He is an ER physician.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

That's pretty hot.

[C]

It was crazy during COVID If we can remember back to when Covid first started and we didn't know anything about it or how it spread anything. I remember he came home from work. I had started this company, so like an entrepreneur startup, which is some work.

[A]

Yeah, a bit of work.

[C]

And we had two small children. And I remember he came home from work one day, he kept his backpack on and he was like, should I check into a hotel? Because a lot of doctors are doing that because they're like, I don't want to bring this home to my family and my kids. And I said, you said till death do us part. And we're either all dying together, but like you don't get to go live in a hotel. Why? I have to like raise these people and do the work.

[B]

No, that's too much.

[C]

Yeah. So he stayed, but yeah, that was the craziest.

[B]

Have you been watching the Pit?

[C]

No, we are not allowed to watch anything work related at home.

[A]

Sure, that's a good rule of probably.

[B]

Yeah. So good. Noah Wiley.

[C]

I heard it's actually really accurate too.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. That first season is in Covid.

[C]

Oh, it is. Oh, God. That would probably trigger a lot of bad stuff for us.

[A]

And Dr. Mike is a consultant on it. Oh, that's why it's so good.

[B]

Oh my God.

[C]

So this company almost didn't make it through Covid. Cause I was like, all right, well if one of us has to give up, oh sure, it'll be me.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

But luckily I'm not a super good parent, so I kept the company going.

[A]

Good, good, good, good. You gotta put your mask on first.

[B]

That's Right?

[C]

Yes, that's right. Yes.

[A]

I imagine you in particular, you do forget the notion that if something horrendous were to spread, the doctors are the ones that are gonna see it for, like, you take that on before they.

[B]

Know what it is.

[A]

Yes. Someone gets something, obviously they're going to turn up at a hospital. You kind of understand people exposed.

[C]

I know.

[A]

Where are you from originally?

[C]

I grew up in Atlanta.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. I'm from Georgia as well.

[C]

Oh, you are?

[B]

Yes, I'm from Duluth.

[C]

Oh, okay. Yeah. So I grew up in Atlanta, and my parents live in Marietta now.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. What high school did you go to?

[C]

Westminster.

[B]

Oh, fancy.

[A]

It's nice, too.

[B]

Yeah, it's nice.

[C]

I really don't like the way I'm being cast here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Your husband.

[C]

Yeah, we're normal.

[B]

You're very normal.

[A]

And what did your parents do?

[C]

My dad, he worked at IBM for a really long time. And then a small group of them, after they all got laid off, went and fixed up startup companies and sold them back to companies like IBM and Apple. And then he did what his lifelong dream was, which he became a professor at, like, a local community college. He, like, always wanted to be a teacher, and. But he felt like he had to work to make money for the family. And so his retirement gig for 20 years was professor, and now he's fully retired.

[B]

That's awesome. Yeah.

[C]

And then my mom was, like, a consultant.

[B]

A retirement gig is being a professor. That's, like, my dad's idea of retirement.

[A]

Yeah. Her father's just now retiring as an engineer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he immediately started right back the next day.

[B]

He just can't retire.

[C]

Some people are really bad at retirement.

[B]

Yeah, I called them yesterday. Or my mom was like, call because you were at the Golden Globes, wanted to hear about it. And, you know, I face him, and she's like, dad's in a meeting. I was like, he's in a meeting in his retirement.

[C]

He's retired. He's in a meeting. Yeah. Well, probably a lot of people want him to, like, consult on things and stuff. Exactly.

[B]

He's a consultant in quotes.

[A]

It just means they don't have to pay any of the other stuff. I think they don't have to pay into the disability. You're a private contractor now. And was he an engineer of some kind at IBM?

[C]

He was a computer science person.

[A]

Okay. And so education prized. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. And also, I'm Chinese.

[A]

You're not first generation, are you?

[C]

I always get confused as first generation.

[A]

Mean, I wasn't born here.

[C]

I was born here, but they were not. So they're immigrants, and I was born here.

[A]

So, yeah, first gen. First gen.

[B]

It is a little confusing the way the gens.

[A]

What else would it be, guys?

[C]

No, you could be the immigrant. You're like the first generation who came here. I don't know.

[A]

You can't come mid generation. They're already alive.

[B]

I think I'm half because, like, yes, I am half.

[A]

She's not.

[B]

I am half because mom did come here when she was 6.

[A]

Still, the rules are out as first generation.

[B]

Don't you think that's, like.

[C]

See, I don't know. I feel like you're, like, second generation.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

You guys are both way more entitled than I am to have an opinion on this. But I will say I think you technically have to be born here.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

All right.

[C]

But my parents were both born in China, and then when communism came, my mom's family fled to Taiwan. My dad's family fled to Japan. My dad grew up going to the American school in Japan. So he's kind of like first generation, but it was American school. And then they both moved to the States and met there. So they're kind of double immigrants.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So what year would he have gone to Japan?

[C]

He was there right after World War II.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And he grew up there, and then he came here and went to college.

[A]

In the US Were they loving Chinese in Japan back then?

[C]

No, because basically the Japanese were on their knees after World War II, and he was in the consulate.

[A]

Oh, his father, your grandfather.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

The reason they fled is because they were anti communists, and so they fled. And so they were in the consulate in Japan as representatives for, I guess, Taiwan really at that point. And he kind of grew up in a little bit of a bubble going to the American school. All his friends are Europeans in America. Yeah, exactly.

[B]

So you're one and a half, too.

[C]

I think so, too. Yeah.

[A]

I'm gonna go along with whatever the verdict was.

[C]

I think kind of what you're getting at is culturally, because your mom came here when she was 6, and my dad grew up in the American school. In Japan, for example, yes, education was important, but my parents. You know, when you're a kid and you're trying to make decisions about stuff, you're like, should I do this or should I do that? They were always about, well, what's gonna make you the happiest? What will make you unhappy? What will you regret?

[B]

That's rare for a first gen.

[A]

Right, which you also benefited from.

[B]

I did also Benefit.

[A]

And here we get into the problem of stereotypes. It's so multifaceted and so dynamic. Also, her father happens to be from an area of India, Kerala, where it's kind of matriarchal. And he also had older sisters. Like, there's a lot that goes into.

[B]

Their own person, I guess.

[A]

Right?

[C]

Yeah. But we can go with stereotypes. It's fine.

[A]

We got in this fight one time, I said, if I saw your father do something that was completely insane to me, like, I had never seen it in my life, I would immediately deduce, oh, it's probably something cultural from India. And she's like, you can't do that. Yeah.

[B]

You said if you saw him eating cereal.

[C]

Weird.

[B]

Or something with no milk or, like, something we.

[A]

Something theorized that he was doing.

[B]

Yeah. That you would assume that was a cultural thing, which I guess I get, but I don't like it. I'm pretty allergic to this.

[A]

Here's a good topic. Actually, we're onto something. This is actually a good topic.

[B]

Okay, great.

[A]

Because I would say, well, you tell me. Out of 10, her sensitivity to her fear of being generalized and being an outcast and excluded was quite high.

[B]

Was a 10.

[C]

Well, you grew up in Duluth. Everybody's mostly white there.

[B]

It's very white increasingly, though, right?

[A]

Diverse.

[B]

Yeah. When I went to high school, it was very white. There were other people, other ethnicities. No, there were other ethnicities there, but it was a small group. If you were Asian, they were all the smart kids. There's very few diversity in the major population. They were all on the periphery. Yeah. Gen pop.

[C]

And do you feel like that contributes to the sensitivity?

[B]

Definitely. I was a cheerleader. I was trying to be so normal, regular.

[C]

Look at me. I'm like a white person. Just like it.

[B]

Exactly. Yes. But you didn't have that. Maybe Atlanta's more diverse.

[C]

Yeah. And I went to a really small school, so, like, everybody kind of knew each other. And then there were only four Asians in my grade. The three of them kind of hung out with each other. I feel like they were more ethnically Asian. And I was definitely more identified with the other kids. And so I didn't experience any racism growing up. People were super nice. I didn't have any issues. I don't feel like I was excluded from anything because of my race. I feel like it's more of a black, white issue in Atlanta. Chinese people, at least at that time, they're like, whatever.

[A]

Yeah, you're not the main thing. Yeah.

[C]

You're not our problem. Well, actually, I Feel like that white people felt like, well, at least you're not black. And black people felt like, well, you're not white. So I got to hang out. I felt like I was most included. Wow.

[B]

I have the opposite feeling. I feel like because I was in the middle, somehow I was like, well, you're not one of us. And then you're not one of us. So you're just like.

[A]

But without minimizing either person's experience. It's just telling about how subjective the experience is and how perspective is so much of the whole experience.

[B]

Well. And how individuals are experiencing things so differently.

[A]

But like two people caught in the middle of two predominant races. Right. Like, you got black, you got white. We're this somewhere in the middle. And then you can have two drastically different conclusions. One is like, well, I don't fit in with either versus. Oh, I'm not either group. That's hated. Is a perspective.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

And that we would have opposite ones even though we're both one and a half generation.

[B]

Exactly.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. It's really weird.

[A]

And then where did you go to college? I know. Ultimately you went to Johns Hopkins.

[C]

Yeah, so then I went to college at Wellesley, outside Boston. That was terrible. It was cold. I actually had a Southern accent when I went to college. And I had a professor pull me aside. He's like, it doesn't matter what you say, you sound like a moron. You need to get rid of that. And so I went to south speech therapy to talk in calm like a normal person. Wow.

[A]

Like a northerner. Like a Yankee.

[C]

Well, like a Midwestern is actually the perfect English is what I was taught.

[A]

Yeah. That's newscaster.

[C]

And there's certain words I still have a hard time saying, but that was Boston. Like, you're wrong and it's cold. And so I was like, okay, I.

[A]

Gotta get outta here.

[C]

And then I went to Baltimore. I actually loved Baltimore. Baltimore is running this multi generational experiment where they have integrated low income housing and high income housing, which just means there's like low income housing and then lowish income housing.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

Because like all the people with high income housing just sort of leave. And then your students are. You're broke and you're like, I used to live near school. And so it's kind of dangerous. Like my parents, when they dropped me off, we drove by the penitentiary with all these guys with these huge guns. And my mom was like, so we're.

[A]

Just gonna leave her here with her new accent.

[C]

With her new accent.

[A]

Her new newscaster accent.

[C]

The new Her.

[B]

What if you just brought back the Southern accent once you got to Baltimore? Cause they were like, you know what?

[C]

You need to bring some of that Southern trouble.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You need to have. But actually, I feel like now circling back now, it's really cool to have this sort of individualistic, like, oh, there's something different about you.

[A]

Yes. Our culture has gotten homogenized through this online unity.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Or it's like, what's special about you? My daughter just finished applying to college, where she started college. But it was like, yeah, what's special about you or what's happened in your life that's been really unique? She's like, I mean, I'm 17, so nothing. Nothing's happening. And I'm not that unique.

[A]

When I moved here From Detroit in 1995, it was like we had our own music scene. We dressed different. There's none of that now. You're on TikTok. You're doing what everyone's doing at.

[C]

Yeah, it's like, all melded together.

[A]

I don't know that it's great. Regardless. Okay. You ultimately ended up with a PhD in microbiology.

[C]

PhD is in biochemistry and molecular biology. Whatever you can say, microbiology is the same.

[A]

What were you initially setting out to before you got captivated by your current interest?

[C]

So when I did my PhD work, it was in skin cancer. Cancer is a pretty big thing that lots of people do research on, so I thought that was interesting. And then I did a postdoc at Northwestern, so I lived in Chicago. We were trying to look for markers for early detection of children's kidney tumors. So Wilms tumors. Then I moved out to the Bay Area. I worked in a pharma company. We were developing drugs for Parkinson's disease. And then I worked in a startup company, which is like, what you do. And I was running biology. We were making a DNA sequencing instrument. So I didn't really know anything about the microbiome until actually I read a paper that got me excited about it, and I started this company.

[A]

What was the paper about?

[C]

It came from this professor at nyu, Marty Blaser. And he showed that babies who are six months and younger, who on a lot of antibiotics later in life, were more prone to obesity and diabetes. And I had a preemie two months premature. And she had been on antibiotics and all this stuff in the hospital before I took her home. And she was in elementary school at that time. And she had these food sensitivities that nobody else had. And I was like, this is the march towards diabetes and the Mayo Clinic actually repeated that study and they showed that if you're under two and you're on a lot of antibiotics, you're not only more prone to obesity and diabetes, you're also more prone to allergies, depression, asthma, adhd, Crohn's, Celiac disease. And it's all because when you're a baby, that antibiotic treatment is killing your microbiome. And for a lot of people, they can never recover it. So I was like, oh my gosh, we could start a company to help millions of people, including my own daughter. And I have the technical knowledge with the sequencing and biology and all that, to be able to do it. That's what actually prompted me to start.

[A]

The company you bring me to. I contain multitudes. I really recommend that book. It's so great. It's all about microbes and their place in the world and all the animals around us. And they do these crazy experiments where they'll raise mice in a completely sterile environment where there'll be no microbes that get to them.

[C]

The bubble boy mice.

[A]

Yes. And the things that happen immediately are staggering. And what a clever experiment. You can find out almost right away what kind of microbiome they have normally and what it does for them. So I don't think people would know. So we got to do a little bit, what is a microbe? How have these come to live in concert with all these animals? And if you've not read that book, it's fascinating how interwoven we are with these bacteria.

[C]

We've really co evolved with them from day one. So yeah, your microbiome is all these bacteria and viruses and fungi, they live inside you, on you, in all your nasal passages. It's sort of everywhere. And for the most part, they're actually really beneficial. We've co evolved with them, meaning we're both getting benefit from hanging out together. But we as a society mostly try to kill them. So in trying to kill the ones that have created disease or infection, we've inadvertently ruined an entire ecosystem that's actually here to benefit our health. And it's only now that we're starting to understand what is the ecosystem. How can we bring it back after realizing that antibiotics can actually cause these.

[A]

Long term problematics and the sterilizing of our environment?

[C]

Everybody buys antibacterial soap, antiseptic wipes.

[A]

It's the epitome of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Right. It's like you might isolate the single microbe you want to get rid of at the expense of 9,000 that are good.

[C]

Totally. It's like you go into your garden that you've been working on, you see a weed and you're like bleach the whole thing. And so it's not that helpful for.

[A]

The garden and to give people a sense of just how many microbes you have. A they represent 1 to 3% of your total body mass. So 2 to 6 pounds you have of living microbes in you. And then even maybe crazier because they don't weigh a lot, I guess is they're one to one. Right. There's as many microbes as there are cells in our digestive tract.

[C]

Seems like that's the case. There's how much they weigh, there's trillions or the one to one ratio. But also when you think about how small they are and the diversity of what they can do, like you just have your genes and you can do the stuff with your genes. There are trillions of these things with hundreds times more genes doing all kinds of stuff in your bodies.

[A]

Yeah. The amount of DNA that's floating around.

[C]

The amount of DNA is like 100 times your genomic DNA.

[A]

Why don't they pick up when they do these DNA swabs and stuff? Are they picking up the DNA of all these microbe when they do these? How are they delineating what's what?

[C]

So technically the way that you swab those, you are getting both microbes and human cells. But human cells are easier to break open than microbes are. So the way that they process those and extract the DNA, the bacteria are mostly kept intact. So you're only extracting human DNA. If you want to extract microbial DNA, you actually have to do a lot more stuff to like break open their cells.

[A]

This is the breakthrough that we've recently come upon ya is being able to DNA sequence these micro.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

When did that start and how did we figure that out?

[C]

With DNA sequencing technology. So when I was working this DNA sequencing company where we're making these instruments, those companies were the beginnings of the technology that enabled this science to exist. So if you look in like PubMed and you type in the word microbiome before the year 2000, it's like a flat line at zero. And then you just start to see this exponential growth of publications and knowledge about the microbiome.

[A]

So about 25 years old. Ish.

[C]

About a 25 year old. Called Science and Medicine.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Wow. Okay. So one example I would say in the animal kingdom is like there's many, many animals that without the microbes in their stomach, they would immediately die. They don't digest the food that they're eating. They're completely reliant on these microbes in their stomachs. We're not as deep on that spectrum, are we? We're a little more independent in that respect. Or not.

[C]

Well, we have quite a few dependencies. But I'll tell you this crazy story about hyenas. You know, when an animal dies, there's all the animals that get first dibs on it. And hyenas can like wait around until the carcass is basically rotting. And all the other animals are like, I'm not gonna eat this gonna make me sick. That's when they come eat.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

They're at dinner time. Their oral microbiome is super interesting. You're like, how are they not getting sick? They have all these effectively antibiotics in their oral microbiome that are killing all those germs. So that's how they can eat this. So there's this scientist, I met him very early on in the company, and he was researching hyena oral microbiome to understand are there new antibiotics we can find in there? Like, what's going on? And in the course of trying to swab the mouth of a hy, he got bit. So he goes to the er. They're like, what happened? He's like, well, I got bit by a hyena. They're like, oh, we gotta like put all these antibiotics. And he's like, no, no, no, I don't need any antibiotics because hyenas have the cleanest mouth. This is not gonna get infected. And they're like, are you outta your mind? They signed 10,000 waivers and he never got any treatment. And they just put a bandage on it. I guess they sewed it up without any cleaning and he was fine.

[A]

He's like one of these scientists who injected themselves with an early medicine and just waited to see what happened. That's false.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

But wouldn't he be worried that obviously the hy. Hyena's mouth is good, but whatever it was eating would have bacteria and then that would get in there.

[C]

There was like a few places where the judgment was a little weird.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Yeah. But I met him. Cause he was like, oh, I want you to help me sequence these hyena microbiome. Cause I want you to tell me what's in there. That's super different and interesting. And he tells this story and I was like, okay. I mean, you're kind of.

[B]

Yeah, you're out on a limb.

[A]

I know this about komodo dragons. They don't have a poison, but they have so much bacteria in their mouth that when they bite their animals, that's what kills them, Right?

[C]

Yeah. And I think probably we as humans in general, because we've been living in shelter and things like that for a long time and been killing these bacteria for a long time, we're probably the most susceptible to any of these sort of microbes or infections because we've done the most to disrupt the system.

[A]

This just hit me. It was not in my notes. We've been both dying to ask somebody who might know this. I find it very curious that all the primates eat each other's shit and that we are uniquely repulsed by shit. And my hunch is we're very weird in the animal kingdom that way. And I wonder at what point in our evolution did we start getting repelled by that smell. And I do wonder if it's when we started living in civilizations. And so what can we say about that? Do animals do generally eat each other's.

[C]

They do. And like if you have a dog, they're sniffing butts. That's where they're getting all the information. But most animals are like, this is just part of living and even eating feces and rolling in it like horses, they roll in feces, they roll in the mud.

[A]

We've been trained to think that's poison, but can observe in other animals it's beneficial to them.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But that's because we started living together in small communities and then it was kind of bad for us because if you're an animal and you're roaming in the wild, you're moving around, you're not staying in this one spot and all your stool is in one spot. Which is why it's super interesting, these fecal microbiome transplants, how people are like, that's terrible, but you're basically eating somebody else's shit.

[A]

Crapsole.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yes. That's. I think when we first got curious about this world, is learning that people with C Diff. So let's talk about C. Diff a little bit very common in hospital is very common if you're on a long term antibiotic cycle. Yeah. My stepfather, who died of prostate cancer, by the end, you know, he had terrible C Diff. And it was explained that that was just a result of having killed every other competing microbe. Is that why?

[C]

Yeah, like we all probably have C. Diff right now inside us and it's not a big deal, but it's. The antibiotics kill off all the other guys, there's no competition. And then the C. Diff can just start to reproduce unchecked. Then that's when it becomes toxic and problematic.

[A]

But they have a lot of success, right, with. With doing Crapsils or stool infants.

[C]

Incredibly, the most successful treatment is fecal microbiome transplant. Ironically, the treatment for C. Diff infection is more antibiotics. So they keep doing this and then you have these people that have the recurring thing and then you can imagine their C. Diff is getting more and more resilient. You're like basically training it to be able to withstand all these antibiotics. But the fecal microbiome transplant, which is basically just flooding with competitors, that's the whole thing is incredibly effective. And yeah, like the FDA tried to take it off. People stormed the Capitol with their pitchforks.

[A]

It's got like a 90 plus percent success rate.

[C]

It's got like a 97% success rate.

[A]

Versus virtually no success rate in the alternative strategy.

[C]

Well, and the thing is, the repercussions of a C. Diff infection is death. Yeah.

[A]

Because you can't absorb nutrients.

[C]

Right, right. And so you're like, well, what's the risk?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Actually the downside's pretty bad.

[A]

Yeah. So, yeah, that one got our attention. And then. And how substantiated are these links between depression, between obesity? How much do we know about this currently? It's always hard to figure out when you read a headline how much real science is in there. What do we know and what's just.

[C]

Kind of a hunch, the obesity one we definitely have a lot of evidence on. Probably the most compelling thing is that there are two strains that we know to date that are able to directly stimulate your body's natural GLP1. And that's literally how it works. You eat food digested, you have these group of strains that then stimulate GLP1 production and then go help your body metabolize through insulin release and then also tell your brain, hey, we're full. And that's actually how it's supposed to naturally work. And your GLP1 of course will go up and then it'll go back down, you'll get hungry again, you'll eat another meal. So that's actually your natural body system, that mechanism is known. It's very much linked to obesity.

[A]

Really quick, I'm so glad you said that because my dumb assumption was like ocam's razor was, oh, they don't have a microbe that's helping digest the food. They're not able to process it and expel it as fast, but it's not even that. It's the communication with the brain telling you you're not hungry.

[C]

When you look at people with obesity, pre diabetes and type 2 diabetes, they're actually low or entirely missing those microbes that do that processing and stimulate GLP1. And so then what they lose is two things. They lose that signaling to insulin, and they lose that signaling to the brain. They're missing these, and so they're not getting GLP1 expression at the right time.

[A]

What's the reigning theory on how someone could be missing those? Why would someone be missing those when so many others have them?

[C]

There's a wide variety of things that can cause you to become depleted in those strains. The first is antibiotics. The second is your diet. So if you don't eat fibers and polyphenols, you're not feeding them. And so that's the second reason. But then there's a lot of stuff that's pretty out of your control. So stress can cause you to become depleted. Aging can cause you to become depleted. Travel like circadian rhythms. So when day becomes night and night becomes day, that can cause you to become depleted. And actually hormones can cause you to become depleted. Like when women go through menopause, you become depleted. And so these are all just part of life that cause you to become depleted. And so there's a lot of reasons people might not have them, but antibiotics and diet are kind of the two most prominent ones.

[A]

We don't see a big genetic marker that like, oh, this person makes a certain protein that's killing them.

[C]

Well, I mean, that's actually a great question. I think that research is still too early to know the answer to that.

[A]

When's the apex for microbes in your body? I didn't realize that. They just diminish throughout time, too, which is terrible. Yeah.

[C]

Really, when you think about when were you sort of at your optimal performance.

[A]

Across the board, you could rewind this podcast, I probably say on every 10th episode. When I was 26, I smoked two packs of cigarettes a day. I ate every single meal at 7:11. The two for one chili dogs. And I got drunk every night and I woke up and I felt pretty fucking good. And I'm 51. I haven't drank in 21 years, and I have a perfect diet. And a lot of mornings are rough, and I'm like, how could this be? Or I have an autoimmune condition now, and I have allergies to food I never had. I'm like, I used to live like A trash can. And it didn't bother me is that microbes were banging back then.

[C]

Yes. And actually, I would say this. People ask me all the time, like, what is a healthy gut? And a healthy gut is a resilient gut. So it means, like, you had the most resilient gut, then you could do all kinds of things that were assaulting it, and it could make it through that and be fine. And as you were probably depleting it in lots of different things through your diet or lack of things that you're eating in your diet, then you got a less resilient gut. And now you're dealing with the repercussions of that. But the good news is, actually you can change your microbiome even now, all the time. You can change it. So whatever you're depleted in, let's say food sensitivities is a really common thing that happens as people age. And we know there's a strain called Akkermansia muciniphilla.

[A]

Say it one more time, it's sexy.

[B]

That was really cool.

[C]

Achermansia muciniphila. It is the only strain we know that's actually responsible for maintaining the structure of the gut lining directly. So your gut lining is sort of like a wooden fence. Okay, now, you have to excuse me, because I'm, like, not a carpenter, and people have actually told me, this is a terrible analogy. I'm gonna say it because most people still understand it, even if technically this isn't how fences work. But if you imagine a wooden fence that has all these wooden planks and they're held together by glue, what can happen over time is that glue can start to weaken, a plank can fall, and now you have, like, a gap in your fence. The structure of your gut lining is actually exactly like that. So you have these planks, these epithelial cells. They're held together by glue. And over time, that glue can start to weaken and you can get an opening or a plank can fall. And then you get what people call, like, leaky gut gut syndrome. And then you're sensitive to foods, cause stuff is just le. Causing all these kind of reactions in your body that shouldn't be.

[A]

Stay tuned for more Armchair expert if you dare. We are supported by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. That's smart. Not checking which platform you watch that new show on. So frustrating. Fifteen minutes later, you've logged into seven apps, reset two passwords, and still haven't found. Found it. Yeah, checking first is smart. So check all state first, for a quote that could save you hundreds, you're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary, subject to terms, conditions and availability. Allstate North American Insurance Company Affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois. We are supported by HubSpot. Did you know that most businesses, Monica, only use 20 of their data?

[B]

That's like reading a book with most of the pages torn out.

[A]

Yeah. Or paying for a coffee that's 1/5 full.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Point is, you miss a lot unless you use HubSpot. Their customer platform gives you access to the data you need to grow your business. The insights trapped in emails, call logs and transcripts, all that unstructured data, that makes all the difference. Because when you know more, you grow more. And when you get a full cup of coffee, you can do more, too. But I digress. Visit HubSpot.com today. Foreign. Is a miracle in that it is a completely sealed system. But you have this tube that's running through the dead center of this sealed system. You can think of a water weenie. That's going to be my analogy. Right. Do you remember water weenie?

[C]

I don't know.

[A]

It's like a long balloon. No, I think they were in Michigan.

[B]

They were.

[A]

It's a rectangular balloon filled with water.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

But the inside you can put your fingers in and you can roll it in and out of it.

[C]

The whole.

[B]

Remember, they like, they fall apart for.

[A]

Yes. They're hard to hold.

[C]

What are they called?

[A]

Water weenies are what they were called when I was a kid.

[C]

Okay, okay, yeah, yeah, I know that. Right.

[A]

So your body is like that. And your body is this master of. We don't want foreign things just entering the body willy nilly. So it goes down this tube in the dead center of our body. And then our body is masterful of pulling everything out it needs and allowing it through this lining, absorbing it in. Right, Yep. And then things can go wrong. And now we are letting in things that aren't supposed to be in there.

[C]

Exactly. Letting things in and out. And exactly to your point, it's very structured and organized and deliberate. And so when you have a hole in there, then you lose all that regulation. And so Akkermansia is the only strain known that lives literally right at that lining. And it strips away that glue when it gets old and it makes new glue and it keeps your gut lining intact. And it's one of the key strains you lose as you age and so you can actually supplement it.

[A]

Wait, does pendulum make this? Exactly.

[C]

We were the first company to be able to manufacture and brought it to market. Now there's a lot of like copycats and by the way, so just as a buyer beware, if you go on Amazon and you type this strain name in Acromania, you're going to see a bunch of things on there that say Akkermansia. And one of my friends is a professor at Cornell. He just bought a bunch of them and sequenced them and he was like, colleen, the only product that actually has Akkermansia is yours.

[A]

That's.

[C]

So just be careful.

[A]

Yes. And I was going to save my pushing back, but I watched a Great segment on 60 Minutes about gut health and the microbiome and the promise of probiotics and prebiotics and all this stuff. Most of the experts said, look, yes, this stuff can work, but we can't even get it to where it needs to be because your stomach's killing. All this stuff you're taking as a supplement and it needs to be in your lower intestine, it's not going to get there. Isn't that part of the problem is keeping the bacteria you would like, like to land in a certain spot alive?

[C]

Yeah, that's the other thing to look for when you look at the capsule that the things are in. So we pay more for the capsule. It is enteric coated, which means it gets through the stomach acid and it's time delayed release, which means it gets all the way to the distal colon.

[A]

Where it needs to go.

[C]

And so you need both those because otherwise it's just going to your stomach. The acid's killing it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You spent $8 to kill this shit.

[C]

And a lot of times that's why we tell people, take your probiotic with food is because that actually does decrease the acidity of your stomach and so it can even help the probiotics get through. Through.

[B]

Wow, that's, that's interesting.

[A]

Fascinating. So how good are the results of that? I don't want to get too excited, but I want to get excited right now because this is clearly what I have.

[C]

Well, you should take the product and let's talk in 90 days and one.

[B]

Yeah, let's see.

[A]

I'll do a little experiment on this.

[B]

I'll do one too.

[C]

Yeah, and do it too. And the key thing is the one, two punch. So your microbiome is very tied to the food that you eat. And so it's like a high performing vehicle. You want an awesome engine and you want to put awesome fuel into it. You can't have just one half of that. So the microbiome you're gonna get Akkermansia. That's the engine part. And the fuel that's gonna be the high octane fuel that you want is fibers and polyphenols. So you either do it in supplement format.

[A]

Polyphenols are in olive oil, right?

[C]

Yeah. Berries. If you eat those.

[A]

I eat so many blueberries. You'd be so proud of me.

[C]

I need more dark chocolate.

[B]

Okay, that's good.

[A]

That's more you. Yeah.

[B]

I need more fiber and I don't know if I should start taking supplements in my head. I don't wanna do that. I just wanna get it through food, but I'm not getting it through food.

[C]

It's really hard actually to get how much fiber you're supposed to get through foods. And so it's not cheating if you' fiber through a supplement. So you should just think about that. Actually, we are launching a product in March which is called Gut Fuel, which is a mix of fibers and polyphenols specifically designed to feed these because not everybody can get it in their diet.

[B]

Yeah, it's hard.

[C]

It is hard. Like how many people can do farm to table at every meal and you.

[B]

Have to have this much protein.

[C]

Pounds of kale. Yeah.

[A]

And I don't want to already expose the whole interview we do with Angela Duckworth, but I'm reading her book right now and it's all about environment and the power of environment and this three box modeling of how your brain works, which is you have a situation followed by a thought, then followed by a response. And people want to have lots of agency in the thought in the response. But we know statistically changing the box of the environment is infinitely more successful in anything you would tackle. So even GLP1, she talks about this great physician who is reticent to go on it because he wants to have willpower. And it's like you can think of the GLP1 as the environment changer. And so the stupid shame we have about trying to only use willpower when there's these other levers we can pull is so weird about us.

[C]

It's true. The shame. And then also we had a customer. I got a chance to talk to him and it was an awesome story. So he's basically like, look, I have always had an addiction to sugar. I have always had a sweet tooth. That's just me. That's just my weakness.

[A]

It's identity.

[C]

That's me. So then he started taking. We have a product called Pendulum Glucose Control, which helps you lower your A1C and blood glucose spikes.

[A]

This Is what Halle Berry was on when she was on. She talked about it.

[C]

Oh, okay. Yeah, exactly. That's what she's on. And it stimulates your natural GLP1. One of the things that people feel most is it reduces your craving. So this guy was on it for his diabetes, and he said, I just want to tell you, I just went through Christmas and I could sit at a table with a plate full of cookies, and I didn't eat a single one. He broke down. He's like, that wasn't me. That was my microbes sending signals to my brain that I should eat sugar. And he had had an epiphany about who he was and who he wasn't. And it was his environment. It was his environment inside himself.

[A]

Yeah. I think. Cause we're a social primate. We're so, so hardwired. For shame. It's such a great mechanism for social cohesion. I think we go to it immediately. It's like any kind of shortcoming we have is like, it must be me. I must be doing something wrong. Even this psoriatic arthritis. That's my autoimmune, my shame of I up my body. And I rode motorcycles. It's got to be my fault all my joints are on fire.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm not even gonna look into it because clearly I just deserve this.

[C]

It's weird.

[A]

It is. I'd say that's a bug, not a feature other than the social.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Let's talk about how it works initially in the birthing canal, because I think it's interesting to know. Of course, when we are in the womb initially, we don't have any microbes. We're not born with microbes. You know, we don't grow with microbes.

[C]

Well, it turns out there might be a couple in there.

[A]

There might be a couple in there. Right. But we're getting them from mom is my point. Generally, Mom's going to give us her microbes. Yeah.

[C]

That's the first seeding. Yeah.

[A]

So walk us through how you end up with this colony of microbes. That should be helping.

[C]

When you're in your mother's womb, it is mostly sterile. There's a few microbes in there people are now discovering, but it's not in anything. I mean, actually, I shouldn't say that. We don't really know what are those microbes and what are they doing? So there probably is something relevant happening there.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

The first real seeding of your microbiome is delivery through the vaginal canal. And so that's when you get your first seeding of all these microbes, and then the next is. Most babies, when they're born, they go straight to breast milk. And so then breast milk becomes the second. And so if you're born by C section, you don't get that first seeding through the vaginal canal. And so that's a depletion. And like, there are some people who will try to replicate that.

[A]

I was gonna say they'll take vaginal fluid and rub it on the baby. Rub it on the baby and the baby. And then when the baby feeds.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

To try to get that all started.

[A]

Now, I've known this part, but I didn't know that part of that is fecal matter that you're getting.

[C]

It's like kind of mostly that.

[A]

It's mostly the baby's eating fecal matter. What? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

See, it's not gross.

[B]

It's not gross.

[C]

It's the animal kingdom. It's the natural.

[B]

The baby is eating it as it comes through the vaginal canal.

[C]

Well, the baby's mouth isn't closed.

[A]

It's trying to breathe. It gets its own. That's the problem. It can get in meconium, what's it called? It can get its own.

[B]

That's bad, though.

[A]

That's bad. That's not good. Yeah.

[C]

I mean, in the end, I think what we realize is there's a few key strains that they need to get during that time. And there's actually companies that are developing those strains. So if you don't want to do the vaginal swab and you have a baby born by C section, or even if you want to bolster their microbiome, you can kind of deliver them these specific strains early on. And then mother's breast milk, a ton of it, is actually the prebiotics, which is the food that feeds your microbiome. And so there's a ton of that in it. But then getting back to Akkermansia muciniphila, they have never been able to find that. It's not like in yogurts or sauerkraut. You can't find it on any single food. The only place they've actually found it is in mother's breast milk.

[A]

By the way, I wasn't breastfed.

[C]

Maybe you didn't have even the initial seed. The idea is that you get it from your mom, and then you spend the rest of your life trying not to lose this thing.

[B]

Right.

[A]

What if I had breast milk now?

[C]

Well, you could also just take the supplement, but you could take breast milk if you wanted. To have a lot of prebiotics.

[A]

Would that populate my gut? Why wouldn't it?

[C]

Yeah, it should be able to.

[A]

Okay. If you're out there and you're nursing. I talked to my wife.

[B]

I wish we were able to just drink it. My brother's girlfriend is pregnant.

[A]

Oh, talk to her about.

[B]

I did joke. I was like, I've heard it's liquid gold. I'll pay.

[C]

It's a whole new business model.

[A]

I mean, wet nurse 2.0.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

For adult.

[B]

I wish our bodies could make it without having to be pregnant. I wish there was a way I could just.

[C]

You're, like, feeding yourself.

[A]

You can't give yourself it. Oh, yeah, yeah. You can't give yourself something you don't have. That's why they always say you can't give someone else something you don't have yourself.

[B]

Interesting, though. So if someone is breastfeeding and they themselves were born from a C section, do they even have it in their breast milk?

[C]

Well, it's like one of the interesting questions about when you have a mom who has obesity or diabetes, they're more likely to have a kid with that.

[A]

Environmental has always been the explanation.

[C]

Right. And microbiome is environmental. Part of the question is like, okay, if you don't have the right starting microbiome as a mom, are you screwing your kid? Because you're not giving them all the initial. Because the first initial thing is through the vaginal canal. Second is breast milk, and that's all they get until they start eating food. Right.

[A]

Can I ask, do we have any sense of what that percentage is? I'm asking selfishly because both my children were C section, and this is something my wife and I talk about. Like, oh, what did they miss? They were breastfed. But what percentage are you picking up from the vaginal canal? And which percentage is coming from breast milk? Do we have any sense of.

[C]

The vaginal canal is mostly the bacteria themselves, and the breast milk is mostly the food. That's like the body. That's how it takes. Right. It gives you the strains initially, and then the food is coming from the mother's breast milk. But it's possible, even if they were delivered by C section, that they were able to get these strands. I mean, unless they have some kind of health problem that you're aware of.

[A]

Oh, no.

[C]

And this is the question about resilience or how some people are able to be fine with that, and then other people end up having lifelong chronic illnesses. We don't know the answer to that. And that could have To. To do with the person's genetics or the proteins they're making and things like that.

[A]

Okay, so that's one step. And then, of course, again, back to multitudes. Learned that people who have pets in their home have more microbes and a greater variety of microbes, and people with pets in their home have lower allergy rates.

[C]

Yeah, it's actually specific to dogs.

[A]

Dogs, yeah. Yeah, I should have said that.

[C]

Because actually, when you have cats, it doesn't make a difference.

[A]

Okay. So dogs.

[C]

Cats are.

[A]

They're out there gathering.

[C]

That's how I feel. I'm like a massive dog person. And I used to give these talks. And I would be like this amazing study that shows that if you have dogs, you have a better, more diverse microbiome. You have these less allergies anytime, anytime. So, like, if you don't have a dog, you should go get a dog. But for cats, it doesn't make a difference whether you have a cat or not.

[B]

Interesting. One thing before we get too far ahead, because I know that we're gonna get comments about. From moms. Cause it's sensitive moms who couldn't breastfeed or didn't breastfeed and then also had C sections. Cause the emergency C section, whatever. That there's gonna be some fear and probably some. I'm like, ah, my kid's perfect. You know, that kind of thing. I just foresee it.

[C]

So first of all, your kid might be perfect because there are these situations. Obviously not everybody more by C section has these. And actually, not all babies who are on antibiotics end up with obesity and diabetes. Right. So clearly that's not the case. It's just that there's a higher risk or statistical significance associated with having those later on down the line. And there's a rationale for why that is. But I think most formulas are designed to have these prebiotics in them. So the formulas are pretty good. But I will tell you one thing about this. One of the mistakes I made that I wish I had known was I pumped a lot of my breast milk and froze it so that, first of all, my husband could participate in feeding the children. But then also while I was at work, you take that out of the freezer and you heat it up, and then you feed the baby. If you're like a mildly impatient person like me, you put that thing on high and you, like, throw it in, and you're like, okay, things will be like, ready in four seconds. Then you kind of swish it around, you give to the baby, and that's actually really bad because when the temperature's too high, you're actually degrading a bunch of proteins in there and, and whatever akkermancy was in there. Like the microbes are all getting unfolded and killed by that heat. So that would be the biggest learning lesson that I wish I had known when I was a. Great tip, great tip.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And good to know about formulas.

[C]

But I do want to address the mom thing too, because I actually think we talked about shame earlier. Nobody should feel guilty about having had to do a C section versus a vaginal birth or formula feeding versus breastfeeding. That's just early start to life. Things where you can optimize, these are all recoverable. And that's the beauty of the microbiome. You are constantly changing, changing it, and you can constantly change it for the better. So there's always hope. It's not like your genes where you're kind of like, this is what you get. Yeah, like this is what I'm predisposed to. I can't do anything about it. The microbiome you can change.

[B]

That's great.

[A]

Okay, now let's talk about the body's communication network and how it's working with food and metabolism and hormones and mood. I think we've all grown up thinking like your brain's behind a blood brain barrier and it's its own little separated thing. We've always thought of things very compartmentalized, and we're more and more realizing, no, no, this is all one big self organizing, complex system that's all communicating. So how is gut regulating a lot of things that we wouldn't normally think it is?

[C]

So if we want to hone on the gut brain connection, first of all, your brain is kind of kept in a secure location and the signaling to it and from it is pretty well regulated and fortified. That's good.

[A]

Yeah, we don't want leaky brains.

[C]

You don't want leaky brain syndrome. But your gut and your brain are actually tied together through a connector, a highway called the vagus nerve. The first thing that people discover is like, your gut makes a ton of neurotransmitters, serotonin, dopamine, gas, and they're like, why would your gut be making all this stuff? And it literally can send those through the vagus nerve to the brain. I think that's interesting. But the more interesting thing is that there's actually neurons in your gut. And so the neurons in your brain, we all know, you kill them, they don't come back. You're Kind of done. But the neurons in your gut, they're constantly regenerating. That's really cool because that's a source of new neurons. The last really interesting thing is that I started my research career in Parkinson's disease. We're always looking at these plaques in the brain. Alzheimer's, the same thing. You kind of get these plaques in the brain. You're like, how? How do I get rid of these? Well, it turns out those plaques appear to show up in the gut neurons first. Really? So there's a theory that your gut neurons get messed up, then they're sending misfires to the brain. And so you could actually target the gut for things like Parkinson's and Alzheimer's to prevent them from getting to the brain.

[B]

That's incredible.

[C]

It's crazy.

[A]

We're enlisted in a Alzheimer's study from Dr. Richard Isaacson.

[C]

What are you taking?

[B]

Well, we're not. So we keep getting our blood drawn.

[A]

Well, he sends it all over the world. We get the most elaborate panels back you've ever. Interesting. But he has this on stuff. I'm on Omega 3s and I'm on a different zeta. Like it's not a statin, but it works.

[B]

Yeah, in conjunction with.

[A]

We are on things. You've been prescribed a lot of behavioral adjustments.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

That you're in progress on. She needs to add some muscle mass.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. It was like your ratios. And then I got on a statin after that.

[A]

But we've interviewed him, and I didn't hear anything about this gut.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

This is fascinating.

[A]

Is the amyloid in there too?

[C]

Those are those plaques.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So if he's a practicing physician, this is too early for him to be able to put something to practice everything I just told you, like, okay, so now what? There's no product that he could give you, so that doesn't exist yet. This is just all the discovery that's happened to date that suggests you could start to target. And there are a lot of companies going after it.

[A]

Okay, so the brain is talking to the stomach and yes. Even depression. You think, oh, depression is something in your brain, but not if all the chemicals are made in your stomach.

[C]

Okay, not to make Akkermansia mucin Villa seem like this cure all, but this paper just got published from this group in Taiwan. This is an animal model. So it's not humans, but it's actually really interesting. I didn't realize this about these mouse models. You can induce stress and anxiety in a mouse model, and they behave like humans. And so what they did in this mouse study is they have like a placebo which is just the animal, nothing happens to it. It's like a normal happy animal. Then they have a group that they stress out. Then they had a group that they stressed out and they gave Akkermansia to. And then a fourth group that they stressed on they gave Prozac to. So this is like a head to head of Akkermancy to Prozac. Interesting. Okay, so they give you this and then look at your behaviors before and after. And there are three behaviors in these animals. And okay, you can stop me in time if you're like, you're nerding out way too much.

[B]

No, we love this.

[C]

I think it's fascinating. So there's these three behaviors they look at. The first one is they throw them into a pool of water. And when they do that, the mouse is immobilized for a second. And then it'll start to swim to like get its way out. And you can actually track how long they're immobilized for. And if you're a healthy mouse, you're immobilized and then you start moving. And if you're stressed or anxious, you actually are mobilized for significantly longer before it clicks in. You're like, okay, I gotta swim. And when you give them Akkermancy or Prozac, they look like the healthy mouse again. You've basically resolved that stress and anxiety behavior. The second behavior they look at is they throw a new object in the cage. And a healthy mouse will like, check it out. It'll be curious, spend a certain amount of time with it. A stressed or anxious mouse will leave it in the corner, like, maybe it'll check it out, but it doesn't spend hardly any time with it. And if you give that stressed mouse either Akkermansia or Prozac, it becomes curious again. And then the third thing they look at is there's just a certain amount of movement meters per day that the mouse moves around. And so a healthy mouse has a certain amount of movement. A stressed or anxious mouse moves a lot less. And when you give them Akkermancy or Prozac, they go back to having that normal. So that's all at the behavioral level. And then we start looking at neurotransmitters and particularly cortisol levels and markers of neural activity. All of those. It's the same thing where the stress out animal has lower levels. And when you give it Akkermansy, even in some cases it was better than the Prozac really And I think the theory is it's because Akkermansia makes a ton of Gaba, which is known to, like, help reduce stress.

[A]

People try to supplement with gaba. I don't know whether it works or not.

[B]

What happens if you double up? Are you allowed to double up?

[C]

We had this funny, almost competition going on among our investors. They're like, I take eight a day. Well, one time I took 12 a day. And you're like, okay, we don't need that much, but you could have a whole bottle in one day and be fine. I mean, you have to do all these safety studies.

[B]

Yeah, but I mean more because I'm on an antidepressant. Can I have that?

[C]

And that we have a lot of people who've actually reduced. Okay, here's my caveat with regulatory.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

We have not done a clinical trial on this.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

But we do have customers who have, with the help of their physicians, reduced how much drugs they're on through improving their microbiome.

[B]

So cool.

[C]

Well, especially because you're saying you don't get as much fiber in your diet as you want. There's probably room to supplement and get those strains higher. Yeah.

[B]

I'm excited.

[A]

Wow. We covered a lot on accident, which is great, because why stop at one cookie? We kind of covered that. That's the GLP1.

[B]

Do you think people should not be on GLP1s and focus more on trying to reactivate these microbes?

[C]

No, I'm not an anti GLP one. If it's helping you, great. Personally, I would be nervous to be on a drug for decades and decades and decades. I would want to be using all the tools in my toolbox.

[B]

The craving thing, that story. That is exactly what people who are on GLP1s say has happened. Like it just.

[A]

The food ratio.

[B]

Exactly.

[C]

Yeah. The food noise. And it's a big deal.

[A]

We're seeing so many collateral outcomes of it that are so beneficial, even if you are someone losing five pounds. There's also cognition benefits. We've had 30 doctors on here. Everyone's pro GLP1. Every time we do a study, we find out one other benefit from it. Your body is the greatest machine known to man for homeostasis. That's why opiates don't work. It's like, you take opiates, they block your pain receptors. Your body's like, great, we gotta grow more. It's very hard to outsmart the body. So, yeah, anything you're putting in it, the body has a way of generally adjusting back to the Baseline.

[C]

Well, and that's like insulin, which of course is one of the most prevalent diabetes treatments. That is what happens. Your body becomes, becomes basically deaf to this signal. And so then you have to get more and more and more. And so I'm Definitely not against GLP1s, but all the studies that have been done have been in people with type 2 diabetes. So most of the people who are healthy right now and taking them, they're part of the experiment. And so we don't really know the long term repercussions. And for you with your particular profile, what will happen to you? That individual case by case basis is getting hammered out literally now. And so we're gonna learn a lot. Yeah.

[A]

I'm already anecdotally seen some friends that have been on it now for four and five years that the dose went up, the dose went up, now they're capped off and the plateau's kind of ended. I've certainly watched that happen anecdotally.

[C]

Really?

[A]

Yeah. I know a few people that are capped at 15 and that's that they're not going above 15 and the rackets returned a bit.

[C]

And so this would be a great time for them to be like, okay, well, what are things I can do to try to stimulate my natural gf?

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

What else?

[B]

Yeah, I do think right now maybe there's an uphill battle in the quote, optimization space and even supplements of any kind. I think people are a little fatigued of hearing all these people say, like, you gotta do this, you gotta do this, do this. I'm hearing like, ugh. I just don't want to hear about any of that right now. That's hard because obviously these things are important. But I also kind of get it that we're being thrown a lot of like, this is how you gotta live.

[C]

You gotta take these 200 pills every day or.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And then you have to do sauna for 20 minutes and then you have to eat all protein, but also a ton of veggies.

[B]

That's what I'm saying.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. There's like a lot to do. It's all overwhelming. Yeah, I think that's right. Look, we are into creating probiotics and trying to help people via that mechanism. But the truth is, great nutrition will get you there. I mean, there's certain cases like Akkermansia, where, look, it would help you to go like 90 day supplementation, but then you don't want to be on our products forever. Like I tell people all the time, do it for 90 days, get the strains in there. And then if you can eat the food that feeds them, you're good to go. And now something else might happen. You have to go on antibiotic, get back on it, but you don't have to take this every day for the, the rest of, of your life unless you're like, hey, I can't get the food that I need, or this is just easier for me, like, great. But if not, you can do it through nutrition. That gets you there. And that's true with a lot of these supplements.

[A]

And it has the advantage of the bacteria is not going to trigger this thing we were talking about in the body, which is it's just really good at leveling off. It's really good at figuring out a way to not take this medicine intervention or to become immune to it.

[C]

Yeah, it's not evolving.

[A]

It works. You don't have to up your dosage of this or that. Once it's colonized and functioning functional, you've.

[C]

Now got its own ecosystem and you're just keeping it going, keep it thriving.

[A]

Okay, what about microbiome as a public health tool? When we talk about population level interventions and how can we maybe start to attack some of these kind of big public health concerns with microbiome, 88% is the stat that was given to me of people are metabolically unhealthy.

[C]

Right. So if we're talking specifically about metabolic health, first of all, we don't need anybody to tell us like obesity and diabetes, this is a massive global problem that is not actually getting better, even though we have lots of products out there. In fact, like a lot of people know, GLP1s have been around forever and a lot of endocrinologists continue to prescribe insulin and metformin because those are the things that have been around for a long time. And it wasn't until like regular people realized, hey, wait a minute, that's what made it popular. And so there's a lot of tools out there that people aren't using. And you have to ask the question, what is it about what we're doing now that is keeping that from being able to work? 88% of people are metabolically unhealthy. You might be thinking thin, but you're actually metabolically unhealthy. And then you might be obese and you definitely know that you're metabolically unhealthy.

[A]

We've had incredible success in vaccines. We've saved billions of people with that breakthrough antibiotics has saved hundreds and hundreds of millions of people. But we've reached A point where what most people are dying from are these four chronic conditions. Diabetes, heart disease, dementia, Alzheimer's, and these are all metabolic conditions.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And what we know. And again, you don't need a scientist to tell you this, but you know that as you age, your ability to metabolize your sugars gets worse. Right. And your metabolism slows down and everybody.

[A]

Hangovers get worse, hangovers get worse, you.

[C]

Get food sensitivities, like all of that is happening. So I think fundamentally the problem is that everyone says you can reverse diabetes and obesity simply by eating well and exercising. Well, it turns out it's not that simple to eat well and exercise. And then there's the shame of, well, why can't you control yourself if you could? Like, this is all on you. This is your fault. And I think the microbiome unlock is that even for somebody like Halle Bear, you know, they're exercising, they're eating well, and they're regimented about it. Even for them, how could they have a benefit from a microbiome intervention? Because you've just lost these microbes for reasons that we listed earlier. And so the big unlock and the epiphany of the microbiome is that might be a tool, you might be doing all those right things, or you might be able to reduce your cravings simply by having the right microbiome and optimizing that. And so if people listen to this and there's just one thing you take away, it's become more aware about your microbiome and try for 90 days. And if you feel a difference, normally it's in food cravings and then sustained energy. Those are the two biggest things we hear. Because if you're not on like a sugar spike and crash all day long, you just have sustained energy throughout the day. You don't get the post lunch slump, you don't get brain fog, and some people experience better sleep, but your energy is just better. If you don't experience anything in 90 days, move on like it's something else. But try it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Now, selfishly, I want to ask this. I'm one of the few people that's trying to promote diet.

[C]

Diet Coke besides Coke. Exactly. Coke company.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

People love to say that Diet Coke destroys the microbiome. Is there any evidence of that?

[C]

Yeah, this basically gets down to like all of the alternative sugars and what are they doing to the microbiome. So there are definitely good studies and evidence that those artificial sweeteners change your microbiome and then that's the end of the sentence. So, like, we don't know. Yeah. In every individual, is it better or is it worse? What does it mean? And your microbiome is evolving. What does that mean for the other things that you're eating? So that's what we know. People love the storyline, but it's killing you so bad for your leg. Well, the data has not come out on that yet.

[A]

How did Halle Berry come to be involved?

[C]

Yeah. So a lot of people don't know that Halle Berry has diabetes herself and has been able to manage it pretty well. But she can tell the story about, like, how she came to discover Pendulum through the Cleveland Clinic and tried it, which is like, pretty crazy because she gets pitched stuff all the time. Right. And we were like a brand new company at the time. I just can't even. She'd be like, sure, I'll do it. So she went on and her A1C went down. And she kind of has said to me, like, look, there's a lot of things that can have like a temporary effect. And so I wanted to be on it for a while to like, see what happened. And it stayed down one point, maybe.

[A]

The first year, and then two points.

[C]

Yeah. Like crazy.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

But that means nothing to me. How do we measure this? A point is a big deal.

[C]

A point is a huge. A point could be the difference between having diabetes and not having. It's like a huge number. What happens when you have diabetes is that your body can metabolize glucose, and so you have a bunch of glucose molecules just like in your body. And so what your body does is it basically attaches it to your blood molecules. Your HbA1c are actually blood cells and it just attaches them to it. And so what we realized is that you can measure how many of your red blood cells have a glucose attached to it. And if it has above a certain percentage. Well, you have diabetes.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And so I can't remember the numbers. They sometimes change. But basically I think like 5 and above. Like, that's not really great. And it can get all the way. You'll see people 12, 14. That's like really bad. But most people, I think are sitting in the like 8 to 11 range. So getting down a point is like pretty big deal.

[A]

Okay. Okay, great.

[B]

My dad monitors this constantly because he's pre diabetic. I'm sending him this. This is really exciting.

[C]

Yeah. So that's what she experienced. And she was like, okay. So then she said, well, I want to know about this company. Like, I want to meet the founder. So I get a call that says, halle Berry would like to meet you. I was like, is this my brother? Like, stop. So I get on this call and it's intimidating to be on a call with Halle Berry.

[A]

She's tough, too. We interviewed her. Yeah, she's a badass.

[B]

She's so cool.

[C]

She's not like, accidentally this successful, right? Like, she's super smart. And so she basically said, look, I love this product and what you've built, and it's helped me and I know it could help a ton of other people, but you don't know anything about building a brand. And I know I'm kind of good at that. And so I'd love to help you. How can I help you build the brand of this company and build a awareness around it? It was just such a genuine I want to help people and I want to help you help people moment. She became an investor in the company. We gave her, like a title of communications officer. She was like, first things first. Like, this packaging is terrible. And I was like, I mean, it's not that it's just a bottle. Who cares?

[B]

She's like, exactly.

[C]

Yeah. She's like, this is why you need me. And so she's like, look, it's true. It's what's on the inside of the bottle that counts. But you gotta get people to, like, want to buy it.

[A]

You can explain 90% of Mac's success, Apple's success in packaging.

[C]

In packaging. And Steve knew, but I didn't know and I guess I didn'. And so she was like, look, it just matters. And so she came up to San Francisco. We tried all these different packaging. We actually went through multiple iterations. The first one we launched was unsuccessful. It's actually been really cool to get to work with Halle. She's super entrepreneurial, which I think you have to be to be a successful actor. But she also is really interested in learning and iterating. And so the packaging was an interesting one because we worked so hard on this thing. She was so proud of it. She put all these social media posts out around it. And then we got this feedback that people didn't like it. And it was, like, hard to open if you were a guy. It was Petri Dish inspired. It was the exact dimensions of Petri Dish, which you're like, that's so cool. And you open it like this. But it turns out if you're a woman, that's no big deal. But if you, like, have man choppy hands, they were like, spilling it over and they couldn't open.

[A]

Oh, interesting. Dumping their microphone.

[C]

Yeah. Like their meaty hands. Yeah. Then Pyraxids going everywhere. Our primary business is retained customers, and so the retention was lower for that.

[B]

Interesting.

[C]

So I have to, like, get on this call with Halle and be like, people don't like it. It's not great for the business. And it's really different. Like, when you put out a movie, you're not like, oh, people don't like it. Let's just take it back and redo it and put it back out again. That's not a thing. And so I was like, okay, so we need to take this, the market and do it again. And she was like, all right, we gotta listen to people. We're here to serve people, and if they don't like it, let's do it. And I was like, okay. And then we just did a new packaging launch this July, and it's been awesome. Old customers that have been with us for years, they were like, I was always on your side about, like, packaging doesn't matter, but actually it does. It's really like this.

[A]

I have a beer company. We lose money because I want the package to be so great, and I want the can to be so cool when you grab it.

[C]

And especially for something you're consuming and something that you're having a daily interaction with that that you get is in the packaging, the emotion of it. And so I'm grateful to her for bringing, like, what does the brain experience need to feel like alongside, obviously, the product and the science behind it. And so she's been an amazing partner. We've been partners now for, like, four years. We've known each other. She's awesome.

[B]

It's so frustrating that you even have to think about that, really, because you're like, the thing works. Can people just forget about this other piece? Eventually they do. When they do take it and they like it, but getting people to pick it up off the shelf or go to the website. Website is hard.

[A]

I'm a regular consumer of Aleve because of the autoimmune thing, the aforementioned. And they make one bottle with, like, a rubber top that's red. I love it. Yeah, I'll spend more. It's the same fucking Aleve in the bottle, but I gotta reach in and grab it. And I like that experience. And I don't like the other one of pinching the thing.

[C]

It matters well. And probably the most compelling thing is there are other probiotics out there that have beautiful packaging and great marketing and branding, but their Ingredients are basically the same as everything else out there. And she's like, you're losing to these competitor and it's just packaging.

[B]

They don't even have the thing.

[C]

Okay, yeah, let's do it.

[A]

Well, Colleen, I like you, you're fun. I'm so excited you're from Atlanta. Most people I know from Atlanta are really cool.

[C]

Yeah, one and a half generations.

[A]

Yeah, I only know one in half generation non white folks from Atlanta. So that's maybe just more a comment on that.

[B]

Oh, we're going to try it and we're going to excited.

[C]

We're the only probacs company that the Mayo Clinic has invested in and they've invested in multiple rounds in US. We are sold through over 30,000 healthcare practitioners. So that's like doctors that are recommending the product and we just got the number 1 GI doctor recommended Akkermansia brand. But how do you get like those crystal bullet points? It's like still a lot of words.

[A]

Yeah. And you don't want your product to be just a bunch of writing all over, right?

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. How do you make people feel like this is the cutting edge thing without all those words?

[A]

That's right. And that's emotional and it's visual and it's actually not as intellectual as we think it is. We get a feeling right away.

[C]

Exactly. And so I will say my biggest weakness is that as a scientist I'm thinking like how do you get people to love it cranially like what I just listened to you guys like, oh, that would obviously make you believe. And so I am actively looking for help from people who are like actually viscerally. And so to the point about clean lines, the new packaging, it feels soft when you touch it.

[B]

Oh, nice.

[C]

And it just has the name of the product on the front and all the like words about what's in it. And all that stuff is actually on a packaging that you throw out. The bottle itself is really clean and feel feels good. And so I'm like, okay, I'm gonna.

[B]

Have my dad on it and I'm gonna be reporting back on his leg.

[C]

I'm gonna be like bugging you guys and asking you to help me.

[A]

Yeah, I'm selfishly just wanting to put me on it. If I could eat again.

[B]

Oh, that'd be so.

[A]

If I could eat garlic again.

[B]

You're really missing out on garlic.

[A]

My life is half as good since I quit eating garlic.

[B]

You can't eat garlic right now.

[C]

Right now, right now, right now. Yet get it back.

[A]

Well, it's Lovely meeting you. This is such a fascinating topic. I think a lot of people are very interested in this. But again, it's one of these things. CRISPR comes out. Whatever. The first NPR thing I heard was like, 13 years ago, and I think, oh, my God. Overnight, they're going to fix all these genetic disorders. When is it happening? Then you hear this microbiome. We make all these links, but it's like, when is it going to actually start helping us? But I do know we're on the cusp of all these things, but it can get a little fatiguing, like, when is it going to happen?

[C]

When's it going to happen? And actually, one thing that doesn't happen can set the whole industry back. CRISPR is a good example of that. Like, gene therapy was really hot. There was like one adverse event, and then everyone went ice cold on it. And then it comes back in the form of crispr. So these things happen. It takes a long time to change our biology, as it turns out. That's why I think for us, it was so exciting to have this intervention that can lower A1C and lower blood glucose spikes as well as essentially a pharmaceutical. But it's this microbiome intervention. And one huge difference between our company and all the other companies that have been going after it with discovery plan platforms and doing real science. I don't want to, like, bash anybody, but most of the consumer products aren't actually doing real science and investing in that. And almost every one of the microbiome companies that's investing in science is doing a drug path. We are like the weirdos. We're the ones who've done all the science but are bringing it to consumers. And so that ability to have a new microbiome intervention, it's the first and only probiotic that can help with diabetes. That's so cool. I'm super excited for you guys to try. Yes, absolutely.

[A]

Well, thanks for coming.

[C]

Mean, this is great.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Thank you, guys. Yeah. Great to meet you.

[A]

Good luck with everything.

[C]

Thank you.

[A]

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare. Hi there. This is hermium. Permium. If you like that, you're going to love the fact check. Ms. Monica.

[B]

Hi.

[A]

Hello. We're recovering. I think we need to be honest about the fact that we're recovering from a story we just heard. Oh, yeah, we heard. This is a hard claim to make, but top three most bonkers stories we've ever heard on Armchair Anonymous.

[B]

Yeah, it's on the first responders episode.

[A]

Yes, it is.

[B]

And it is really something. It's disappointing. Disturbing.

[A]

It was disturbing. It was unsettling. Yeah. And. And was also great. I feel very privileged to have heard such an insane story.

[B]

I'm very nervous that the protagonist in the story is going to, like, show up at my door.

[A]

Okay. Not the person who told us the story, but the who it's about.

[B]

Yeah. The main character.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And appear at my window.

[A]

Holding his.

[B]

Speaking of body parts, I guess. Or being exposed.

[A]

Bone thread.

[B]

Someone popping out.

[A]

Okay. A pop out.

[B]

We forgot to put a door on my. Where I potty.

[A]

Your toilet.

[B]

My toilet room. My water closet.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And it was in the plan from the beginning. It just. It somehow it got missed.

[A]

These things happen.

[B]

They happen. And it is so interesting because at my apartment, I would. In the night or whenever I would, like, pee and stuff. And I never closed the door.

[A]

Right. Of course not.

[B]

Now when I'm in there, I feel so exposed.

[A]

But do you think that's because, you know, there are lots of people working in your house still?

[B]

No. It's like, in the night, I feel very vulnerable.

[A]

I don't use mine. I have a little door on my toilet area. Unless the kids forever were like, I don't know how. They're impervious to whatever. They come in and chat with me, and I'm like, I can't believe they're not commenting on the smell.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But they've reached the age where now they come in and they're like, oh. And I'm like, I don't want to be shamed every morning.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But if they weren't in the mix, I would never shut that door.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't have expected to really need one, but I do now.

[A]

You do.

[B]

Yeah. And I don't. I don't like that now when you.

[A]

Go in the middle of the night, Are you suggesting that when you have a door, you will close the door behind you when you go pee in the middle of the night, I wonder.

[B]

If in the night I won't, but I definitely will in the morning.

[A]

You will.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

For your pooty time. That's generally what you're doing in the morning, I would assume.

[B]

I do have a. I have. I'm very regular.

[A]

Yeah, but you want to close it even when you're in the house by yourself.

[B]

Even when. When there's a number two. I want it closed.

[A]

You want to contain pain that.

[B]

It's not even about that. It's. It's. It's about feeling, like, very vulnerable.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So I guess I'LL report back once the door is there. I mean, it's also such a ding, ding, ding, because we didn't have a door upstairs for so long. And it was.

[A]

It's a blessing.

[B]

Big part of our. Our history and our lore.

[A]

Our origin.

[B]

Our origin story. So it's like very sim, huh? But no one was going duty in there. No, I want to transition to something not kid friendly.

[A]

Okay. So if you're a kid, turn off the show.

[B]

Now, this is a weird question. Okay, But. But I was wondering, I mean, maybe you're not allowed to answer this, but.

[A]

I'm in a new era, which is very unexpected. Didn't. I didn't expect to be in this era.

[B]

What do you mean?

[A]

Well, I feel like for eight years I've been saying whatever I wanted and no one gave a shit. And like recently, in the last three or four years, months. Like, a lot of stuff I say ends up is a news thing. And I gotta say it has. It's bothered me, but it's.

[B]

Yeah, that's fair.

[A]

I'm just like, do I want the headache? Like, if you asked me if I wipe my butt with my hand, it's like, normally I would have asked, answered that, and now I'm like, I can't bear to.

[B]

No, you have to, because I'll do it. No, also because the real controversies are cut. So, like, what it shows me me is just they're gonna find something.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

That's dumb. And nothing. So you might as well just rip. Yeah, let it rip.

[A]

Okay, I don't know if that's great advice, but let's continue.

[B]

This is a masturbating question.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now, do you ever like, I've never masturbated. Says he's never masturbated.

[A]

That would be a. Somehow that would be bad too. Okay. All right, masturbation question.

[B]

Now, have you ever been just like, okay, I'm gonna masturbate now? I mean, I know you have. Both of you have. And is it. Has it ever been random and then, like, you realize your environment isn't. Okay, I need to ask more specifically.

[A]

It also feels like you're telling us a little bit about what's happened in your new house, but you're gonna pretend like you're not, that it's our story.

[B]

What if you guys. Have you guys ever moved into a new house?

[A]

You ever been in your new house and you decide you want to masturbate there, but then you feel out of sorts there?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

No, that's not it. Sometimes I get the desire at random. It has nothing to do with like.

[A]

You didn't see a lot.

[B]

Exactly. What I'm watching, what I'm thinking about, it's just like.

[A]

Oh, like you feel the surge of whatever endorphins tell you.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I guess I'll just say the deets. So I was in my house and. And I had the TV on kind of in the background. It was just sort of on. And I was like on my computer and blah, blah, blah. And then I was like, okay, it's time. So I get my friends. Yeah, I got my friends down. And in the middle I realized that the TV was still on. And what was on on was. Nobody wants this. Oh, wow.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I. All of a sudden I felt really. We. This whole. This whole episode is me being exposed. I didn't feel exposed. I felt like, oh, no, no.

[C]

Oh, no.

[A]

Like bone kill, we would call it.

[B]

Well, no, it didn't like, stop my. It. It was just like some. This is bad. It felt like this is like your mom was watching. Not that she was watching, but like. But I shouldn't be. She's on my tv.

[A]

Yeah. While your friends watching. But not.

[B]

But no, it's not about her watching.

[C]

It's more like getting caught and then being on the tv.

[B]

No, it's more just like.

[A]

It's not sharing this space.

[B]

Like, okay, like if you were and you look over and you had a framed picture of your mom.

[A]

I.

[B]

Exactly. You're like, oh, no, like, I don't. Or a video of her just going, yeah, exactly. So. Yes, so. So it was like, oh, oh, so.

[A]

You do turn off the.

[B]

Yeah, I turned the TV off and I wondered if you'd ever had any.

[A]

Experiences where I all of a sudden felt very weird and awkward.

[B]

Yeah. Like, oh, this is not appropriate.

[A]

Well, all of my early teenage years, you felt. I felt a lot of that. Like, oh my God, I'm in my house. Or I'm, you know, like I felt like I should be in a field somewhere where. No, you know, like. Like I. Yeah. The notion that my mom would know or something was terrible. My family. And I felt bad. Like I felt lascivious for doing it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which again, I can't explain. Cause I had a very sex positive mother. I wasn't religious. I don't know. I think I sensed a little bit of like, I don't have control. Maybe that's the thing that was scaring me. Like, oh, I have to do this. I think it might be my first Feelings of powerlessness.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

That I learned to embrace, obviously.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Throughout my addictive life. But I definitely think I was a little bit like, oh, I think I had this inkling like I can't stop this if I want to because I. As I told you, I did try to stop at times and I had these. I'd have these crazy compromises.

[B]

What do you mean?

[A]

I was allowed to do it for a bit, but. But not all the way. Oh, you weren't allowed to agonizing fully orgasm. Yes.

[B]

That's weird.

[A]

Cause then that was because also that's when the guilt would. Yeah, I guess that's the bad part. And that's when the guilt would set in. Post that.

[B]

What was the guilt? Was the guilt like.

[A]

Like I was just bad or perverted.

[B]

Perverted.

[A]

Yeah. Again, I didn't have a dad that was like, son, you're going to start cuffing your carrot and that's fine. You know, maybe that's what I was. Mean scene.

[C]

He.

[A]

He would have been happy to tell me that, but he just didn't.

[B]

Oh yeah, yeah. There is something about like oh, I'm perverted.

[A]

Huh.

[B]

Which is just normal. It's not perverted.

[A]

Of course. It's completely normal. That's what I'm saying. That that's the dissonance for me. I don't know why I had a hang up about it. I shouldn't have. I had the perfect probably situation. Situation to not have any guilt about it, but I still did.

[B]

Yeah. So it's just human.

[A]

I, I think it's like the, like that, that original sin feeling like we, we have all this, like there's, there's something curious that goes on with us.

[B]

Do you think maybe men have a like guilt about. Well, obviously it's like societal and stuff, but maybe it's also biological. Maybe it's like you wasted one.

[A]

Oh, wow. Like evolutionary.

[B]

Yeah. Cuz like women obviously that comes more like. Then you're like dirty.

[A]

I could have had a little bit. Bit of like gay hurdle.

[B]

Oh yeah. But that's weird.

[A]

I'm playing with a penis.

[B]

Oh, interesting.

[A]

Yeah. And at the beginning of my experience, my journey.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I wasn't even like I wasn't fantasizing about a girl. I hadn't done any of that.

[B]

No, it was just, it was just.

[A]

The sensation of it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which I don't know if that felt like autoerotic. I don't know. I don't know. It doesn't make any sense that I had issues, but I did.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You never Forget. Do you remember exactly the first time you did it?

[B]

Because I. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I do.

[A]

Yeah. Same Rob. Yeah. Yeah. It's so funny.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We're just little monkeys, you know?

[B]

Just little monkeys.

[A]

Yeah. And if you go to the zoo, you'll see those monkeys are not shy about.

[B]

No. And at least we don't throw poop everywhere.

[A]

That's one thing we don't have to feel guilty about.

[B]

Okay. Well, I'm glad I got that off my chest.

[A]

Yeah. You know what I also think is curious? Now that we're talking about it. Yeah. You went upstairs to get your stuff and then came back downstairs.

[B]

I did.

[A]

That's curious to me. Why not just once you're upstairs.

[B]

That's not the environment I wanted.

[A]

Okay. Interesting.

[B]

It wasn't like I was like, I gotta, like I wasn't like panicked and like I hacked.

[A]

I'm just thinking, I. I'm such an officiator.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'd be like, I'm gonna have to now go back upstairs again to return this stuff. I'm just here.

[B]

I know, but it wasn't about that. It was like.

[A]

It's all about the room.

[B]

Yeah. I just, I want. I. I wanted an experience.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Not the experience I got, unfortunately. But yeah, we really weird to hear her voice.

[A]

I would love if this, this like manipulated in your mind and all of a sudden you had to have it on. That would be. That'd be an interesting update.

[C]

Oh my God.

[B]

How would I tell her? I would have to tell her.

[A]

If anyone would be fine with it. I think she would. She'd be fine with that.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But then like, it'd be flattering, I think.

[B]

God. And then when I saw her, I'd be like.

[A]

Yeah, you'd be very. This is like when you have a dream about someone you don't like in your waking hours, you have no feelings about, but then you have a very romantic dream about them and then when you see them, you're a little confused. Have you had that? No, I've had that a few times.

[B]

Normally the people in my dreams were pre existing. Yeah. Are people I already like, think are very hot.

[A]

Right. No one snuck in?

[B]

God. That's a good question.

[A]

I've had a few sneak ins and then I'm trying to like there's dissonance. Now I'm with this person, there's not a spark and it's so confusing.

[B]

They were just standing in for something else.

[A]

They represented something, I think.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, I think that's the case.

[B]

And then. Do you ever like kiss them on the cheek to see. Just to test the water, see how you feel. Oh, yeah.

[C]

No.

[A]

Someone I've been friends with for 20 years. That's okay.

[B]

Also, I sent you. I've been sending you some videos on Instagram.

[A]

Oh, this is a great conversation to have.

[B]

Yes. I've been sending you some videos on Instagram that I love so much.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you think they're AI so this.

[A]

Is a very good conversation. I bet. I imagine a lot of people are in this situation.

[B]

Uh huh.

[A]

Which. Hold on. You have something right on your feet.

[B]

Oh my God. The whole time.

[A]

Only once in a while when you turn all the way this way, which we shoot this side of your face anyways. But yeah.

[B]

Is it Dawn?

[A]

Yep. Yeah.

[B]

It was a burrito.

[A]

No, it was like a white fleck.

[B]

It was dandruff.

[A]

No, I don't think it was dander. Okay. I think I'm pretty good at detecting AI. I could be wrong.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

That's what I think.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm regularly. I don't know whether I should tell the person who sent me the video that I think it's a. It literally happened on our 10 minute break between recordings. Oh, my friend Guy who sends me the greatest videos, he sent a video of two moose fighting next to a car and they were damaging the car.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Give away for me Me is the dialogue and the voices, they have a very distinct pattern. And if you listen closely, they don't talk like humans talk. Like, oh God, why does he ruin the car? Oh, this sucks. Oh hell, get out of here. Like, it's too. The thoughts come too fast. That's the giveaway to me is the audio generally, because I. You. You can hardly tell now. The visuals, they're so good.

[B]

Yeah. But I wonder.

[A]

It is the reactions of the bystanders that I don't think AI does very well.

[B]

That's interesting though, because the types of videos that I love and I'm sending are. They're very reactive. But that's the point of them.

[A]

Yeah. So the ones you've been sending. What started was these murals on the ground that people. And we've seen them, they're very deceptive.

[B]

They're 3D.

[A]

They're 3D murals. And it looks like the floor has dropped out from these people. Or there's a ladder and these people walk by on their phone and you can even hear like. Like there's this weird audio stuff going on even. Even before the people fall. And then they fall. And then I also question whether or not because it only looks that way when you're standing at our vantage point. When you're on top of it, it doesn't look that way. We stood on top of that thing at Disneyland to take the picture where it looks like we're getting sucked down into a whirlpool. But as you know, when we're standing on it, it doesn't look like that at all. It only looks that way from the vantage point of the camera. So I also don't believe anyone on top of it, it would look like the thing we're seeing. I don't think that's the physics of it.

[B]

Huh.

[A]

So I don't even think it would happen.

[B]

A, okay.

[A]

And then B, just really listen to the bystanders, the way they're reacting and stuff. Okay, but. But before you even play it, what do you think the ethics for me are? Just let people have. Enjoy their thing, or do you think I should point it out? I'm on the fence a lot of times. Like, I let three years go before I said anything. If you recall, I was like, she's enjoying this a lot.

[B]

We're not sure.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And so. And it's like, oh, you just sit in your house thinking, like, oh, she doesn't get it. Like, I. I don't want you to have. Not you, anyone feeling like that.

[A]

Well, I don't think anyone's. I don't go like, oh, they're so stupid. I just worry, I guess. I want people to know. What.

[B]

Okay, I found it. I found one. Okay.

[A]

Okay, great.

[B]

Yo, they're falling. Falling.

[A]

Hello.

[B]

Hello.

[A]

Oh, my God. That part. That's the way he just said that.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

What was.

[A]

That laugh? That's not a real laugh.

[B]

What is this?

[A]

I almost broke my neck. What are you saying? Almost cry.

[C]

Hey, are you out of your mind? You can't just put a giant fake hole in the middle of the sidewalk.

[A]

See, it's too quick. He has his thoughts way too together, and he's just rapid fire. Like, the AI knows there'd be a lot longer period of confusion and he. There would be a what the? Like, he's like, what the. Why'd you put this hole here? Blah, blah. It's too. It's too fast.

[B]

I don't know if you're. I mean, maybe. Maybe I just feel like if. If you're reacting in panic, things do come out fast.

[A]

I think that's too fast for me.

[B]

Okay. I mean, they also might have sped.

[A]

Also, like, you're embarrassed. Most people are like 99% embarrassed, but they go straight to like outrage and anger. And I think that's a little two of them.

[B]

So I actually that was part of why I thought it was real. Cuz some people were mad, but others were like, you could see are embarrassed or some are laughing.

[A]

The visuals are outstanding. I don't think you could detect it from the visuals other than. I don't think it. When you're on top of it. It. You would see anything that.

[B]

I don't know that.

[A]

Yeah, but you stood on that thing and it didn't look like we were.

[B]

Going into a hole.

[A]

You don't remember.

[B]

Also, I wasn't. I knew what we were doing. Like, I think part of it is they're catching these people off guard because they're not.

[A]

Just the illusion of it though, is they're making the front really obscured and wide. But when you're on top of it, you don't get the illusion. Yeah, you can't get the illusion. It has to be viewed from away.

[B]

Now do you think this baby holding the knife is AI?

[A]

Yep. I think those are AI too.

[B]

But that's not. Okay, that sounds like. It sounds like obviously a baby holding a knife is a. But the.

[A]

It's a prank.

[B]

Yeah, the concept is it's a prank.

[A]

Yes. And also, so many people know this prank. There's like 12 clips. This is like.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, but that's like there are trends. They're like tik tok trends where people are pranking their. Their parents and stuff.

[A]

And they all got the same fake knife.

[B]

Baby, no. Up.

[A]

What the.

[B]

Oh, Jesus, Christy. What the hell?

[A]

Yeah, that sounds so fake to me.

[B]

What?

[A]

What?

[B]

You think so?

[A]

Yeah, that's really funny.

[B]

I don't think that sounds fake week.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. But my favorite ones are when the wives are tricking the husbands or the boyfriends. And a lot of them, they just act scared. Like the woman acts scared to see what will happen with the man.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And. And there's so many different reactions. It'd be one thing if there was. If they were all the same. Okay. People should weigh in.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm sure they know what I'm talking. I'm sure they know what video.

[A]

Yeah, I'm sure people are getting sent videos all the time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I've been thinking so much about it. Cause it's like I still enjoy watching them. And also they're not as good as if it really happened. Of course. Yeah. It's just such a weird space in your head. You're like, yeah, I guess I still Want to see these? But I do prefer when it's obvious just because they get the physics so right. I'm just blown away with how good the AI is at. And then now, which is a bummer. Like I watched a alligator and a Komodo dragon fighting and that one looks so real.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Oh my God. You could not tell. It was like moving all exactly the same. But I'm like, yeah, those two animals don't interact. A And then I watched one the other day and I was really sad because at first I was like, it's a badger and a bear, a pretty good sized bear and they're getting at it. And then a second bear arrives and actually bites the badger. But the badger bites its tongue from inside of its mouth and the bear freaks out. It's so real. Looking at the end of it, I'm like, I don't know if that happened or not. That is something a badger could do and would do. They're so tenacious. They just keep biting. They don't care if they're getting attacked. I've seen on National Geographic them fight back to leopards and stuff. So I'm like, it could definitely happen. But I don't know if someone caught this on video.

[B]

Well that part is a little.

[A]

That's when they were standing this close to two bears fighting a badger. They would have ran. There's two big bears on the scene.

[B]

I don't think it's real. These that I have could be filmed because the whole point is pranks. The whole point is to catch them. So.

[A]

And ours are the ones that are getting us into me are all like, you know, like you happen to be standing there and they're good at making it look chaotic. But you do the math and you're like, yeah, those two animals don't live in the same hemisphere.

[B]

Right. Also yours are so animal based and animal fights. I feel like that raccoon biting is because we talked about with Wina. We had a whole conversation with Winna about your riddle and I think your phone. We said grab the top. We were talking about the. The tongue.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think it heard it and sent you that.

[A]

Oh well it nailed it. Cuz I was quite interested. I had a new idea too. I hope these are real. But now I'm wondering if they were AI and maybe I talked about them. Aaron and I got obsessed with them. It was during Halloween as all these ring camera of people have skeletons on their porch that are motion activated.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And then they have some candy out.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And like one is A moose. This moose, like comes up on the yard and it's like sniffing around. It's going towards the. A moose. It's like in Alaska.

[C]

Oh.

[A]

And then it gets up to the bowl of candy and the skeleton wakes up in. The moose loses its. Yes. You feel so bad for the moose, but it's happened to bear. There's a bunch of ring cameras. And so it's totally plausible because these animals do come up and interface with your porch. There's plenty of those.

[B]

What's funny though is when you're saying it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like, obviously it's a. It's funny when.

[A]

But then when it's not your thing.

[B]

Yeah. And when it.

[A]

When you're not incentivized for it to be real.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm not seeing it visually.

[A]

This one was so real with the bear that I said to myself, oh, the move isn't stand tall. I'm big. It's definitely not to run.

[B]

Right.

[A]

My new move, I think is I'm gonna sit dead still and let it get super close. And then when it's about a foot away, I'm gonna go. Because I think any anim.

[B]

This is a horrible.

[A]

No, I think it would work. They'd pee themselves and fall back.

[B]

Don't use an AI video as instruction. See, this is why it's scary.

[A]

You could be making life choices based on what the AI model. I think the AI is probably right though, because nothing could be scarier than you're inching closer to something. It's completely seems unanimated and not anything. And then in a second it's a pop out.

[B]

No, it.

[A]

Then animals have a pop out.

[B]

I think their reflex is just to eat it immediately.

[A]

I think they back up and freak out.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Oh, tbd. I'll let you know if I. I run into a grizzly and I. But I do think that's my new preferred technique.

[C]

God. Okay.

[A]

All right.

[B]

Well, anyway, I guess people should weigh in on if they think any of these things are real or AI. But now I'm starting to think that.

[A]

And I want to know whether people think you should just let people have their fun or if you should tell them.

[B]

I think it's. You're allowed to tell people you think it's AI.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I mean, it does like it. I was like, it's a Debbie Downer.

[A]

It is. It's a yuck. My yum.

[B]

I'm not someone generally who thinks it's okay to like, be fooled. Yeah. Or like let lie or like let People believe something that's not true, even if it, like, makes them happy. Except religion. Yeah.

[A]

I think you have no business.

[B]

I don't.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, me, I don't have any business trying to poke holes in Noah's ark.

[B]

I think religion is so much more complicated than that. Like, people who believe. Not everyone who believes. Believes in all the details. And what they're believing in is Big spectrum. Exactly. Not something I can. I can refute. I don't know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So.

[A]

But, you know, the whole world was probably not populated by two people just given the gene.

[B]

I'm saying. I'm saying that. That a lot of those stories in the Bible, depending on what you believe. But I do think a lot of people believe them as allegory. Like, and then I'm not to tell them because they're like, I know, but I believe in blah, blah, blah. Exactly. And great. I also don't want any to tell me how to believe.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So I'm not going to tell them. But when it comes to being tricked visually, I think we need to be told because I think we need to be more aware. Like, there are tricks. There are tricks out there.

[A]

Well, this is what Adam was talking about. You have to consider who sent this, who created this, who has the incentive for what.

[C]

I know.

[A]

Let's just say I go to this guy's page, and lo and behold, this guy has witnessed many animals.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Well, okay. This is an account that's trying to get views and likes by creating this thing. If the guy has a completely normal life and he has this one video of an animal acting crazy, that's pretty reputable. And he's been on here forever.

[B]

Yeah. But I bet that page where it came from is like a bunch of those types of videos. But they're not saying, like, it's me.

[A]

Right. But I'm saying if you can track it back, which is what he's saying, he wants to be easy to do, to find the source of it. And you go to the source of it. And they have many videos.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Then it's quite obvious at that point, either this is the luckiest person in the world.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or they've created these with AI.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I think you should be able to easily follow that path.

[B]

I agree. Back to what I was saying about feeling like that is generally how I feel. Like truth is the most important thing. But the answer end of Beth's dead, I had a different takeaway and. Which we talked a lot about on that show and on the little extra episodes we did Like I. It really did make me question, does the truth matter if there's peace?

[A]

Right. I think before you're evaluating anything in life, you have to first establish what is the goal.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

Is the goal full knowledge of what happened on an atomic level Level. Yeah. Or is the goal peace? Is it contentment? Is it laughter, understanding and love? Is it connection? And I think the only imperative is that you are pursuing your goal in a way that you can meet it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't think it's. Especially as I get older. I know it's like a big pop culture thing to go. Like. Well, they live in a different reality. It's like, yeah. And you live in a different reality. It's not that other people live in a different reality. And you're in reality. Reality. That's not the case.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're in a different reality than everyone else.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you're certain yours is the most objective and it's not.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And you have to have a lot of humility, I think.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think the time where it's like, okay for you to point out is like, well, is this lie going to impact me negatively? Then I want to advocate for myself and say, no, this is X, Y and Z. Because you don't. You want to protect yourself. But if it has zero, like, that's where I'm at with this. Like, it has zero impact impact on me whether someone believes this AI video or not.

[B]

Well, but it's just a slippery slope of everyone's believing things that aren't true. Like it is slippery for the whole world.

[A]

It is.

[B]

But I also agree, and this does suck. Like I don't want to see those anymore if they're made up, like, they don't make it. That doesn't make me laugh as an AI video.

[A]

Right. Then that didn't really happen.

[B]

Interesting. If that is the way humans are.

[A]

Behaving, I wonder how the news, like, what filter are they using? How are they determining at this point when they get sent video what is AI or not? I'd be very curious. I should ask my father in law.

[B]

They must have to do an interview with the person. They must have to see the person.

[A]

That created the video.

[B]

Yeah. And it better be the same person that's in the video. And yeah.

[A]

This is what Adam was talking about.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He's like, we gotta be be able to check the reputation of the source.

[C]

Exactly.

[B]

For people who don't know what we're talking about. I guess we'll spoil that. Next week is Adam Mosseri Yeah.

[A]

CEO of Instagram. Instagram and returning.

[C]

Interesting.

[B]

Yeah, returning guests is interesting. Speaking of, let's go ahead and do some facts.

[A]

Okay. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

[B]

Microbiome. Colleen Cutcliffe.

[A]

We've been Easter egging the out of this episode because we have already consumed these probiotics.

[B]

Yeah. And. And you just ate bread.

[A]

Yeah, I have a few times now. And I haven't had any issues. I'm scared to be too optimistic. But. But yeah, I. And I have no. I. It's not my plan to go back to eating it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But I do love the idea that occasionally I can. Without issue.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And again, I'm not endorsing anything. I'm just giving my own personal experience. I don't want anyone to buy or not buy anything. Whatever. I'm not a medical professional. I also got my mom on it. You know, I sent her and I just talked to her weirdly before I walked in. And she's like on day eight. Eight. And I'm like, have you noticed anything? And she's like in the moment. She's like, yeah, actually, yeah. My hip or I have really bad arthritis, has not been hurting.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

She's like, it still hurts a little bit, but it went from like 80 to 15.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I was like, girl. And that's only day eight. And it's supposed to take a while to completely recolonize. Anyways, I am like very optimistic. Cautiously optimistic.

[C]

Me too.

[B]

Yeah. And then I have my dad on the GLP 111 and they sent it to us and we were going to try it. We haven't tried it yet.

[A]

Why not?

[B]

Cuz there, it's refrigerated and it's in my fridge and I always have to bring stuff over. It's hard for me to remember.

[A]

I know. Do you try post its ever.

[B]

You could come get it.

[A]

I could.

[B]

You could come get it anytime.

[A]

All right, I will.

[B]

And soon it'll be easy.

[A]

Yeah. I will only have to walk across the street quite soon.

[B]

That's right. So I didn't take my shot yesterday.

[A]

Uhhuh.

[B]

I think I'm going to try this instead.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Give it a whirl.

[A]

I want to try it. I wish you could have seen my daddy just once. It was impressive.

[B]

It's probably like Jess.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. But the way I know. I've told you but he would make a frozen pizza, but that was simply the base of what the meal was gonna be. There would be chicken wings on it and salsa and it was insane. The Amount of meals on top of this pizza.

[B]

I know there's. That's a type of person. That's Jess. He would. In the air fryer, you'd be shook. Like, it's like pancette noodles, mustard, turkey slices. Like, it's not. It's nuts.

[A]

The creativity's off the charts. Combining ingredients that no one would think of other than, like, stoners.

[B]

No, it's not creativity. That's like saying this is an art piece when you're just throwing shit.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I guess a critical assessment would be, like, they can't even decide which. Like, they're like, 20 things sound good to them. Yeah, great. I'll have all 20.

[B]

They don't taste. They must not have taste buds, like, because that must taste so disgusting. Anywho.

[A]

No, no. Maybe they're like super tasters where it's like. No, they can actually enjoy each individual taste. Like, maybe they ratchet through. Like, oh, yeah, there's the salsa, there's the chicken wings, there's the chicken chow mein, there's the pepperoni from the pizza. But, yeah, I would look at this thing and be like, how does that taste? Like anything.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I. To me, it more was like, when you put too many colors together, you get black.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

You're just going to get brown at a certain point.

[B]

Yeah, but. But a good. Someone who has a good palate can taste the depth of flavor. Like, you are supposed to layer flavors. Flavors that go together. Salt, fat, acid, flavor profiles. Exactly. But not panette noodles.

[A]

Lettuce, toucan soup.

[B]

Yeah, I know.

[A]

Four pound rump rose toucan cheese soup.

[B]

Anyway, so this was. Yeah, this was good for us. And we're giving it a whirl.

[A]

And the product aside, I've been having so much fun talking to everybody about the amount of things that the gut is in charge of.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So much going on.

[A]

There's a lot going on in there. Not happening.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Especially mine, because we just ate some Philly cheesesteak.

[B]

I only had half and you only have two, but I want my other half.

[A]

Yeah. I might put a burrito on top of it and some. Some kung pao chicken and some. Some Doritos and some.

[B]

That's what he would do. And. And, like, sprinkle cheese on top of the whole thing.

[A]

Yeah, Smother the whole thing. Cheese. There was. That's one of the greatest SNL fake commercials of all time. You remember that? The pizza one? Ultimately, it comes in a bag and you put like a gallon of salsa all over it? Yeah.

[B]

It's a Taco Bell. Isn't it like a Taco Bell spoof? Yeah, I think it is.

[A]

Or pizza. One of the two.

[C]

Taco Town.

[A]

Taco Town.

[B]

Yes. Okay. You said that there's a Taco Town.

[A]

Sounds perverse.

[B]

Taco Town.

[A]

Yeah. Like let's go to Taco Town. There's an innuendo there.

[B]

A vagina is Taco Bell. Vagina. Innuendo.

[A]

Kristen's why?

[C]

Oh.

[A]

Oh God. E.

[B]

Oh my God. Is that like a joke you guys had?

[A]

No, it just came up. That just hit me.

[B]

Okay. Palos Verdes. You said that there's a community there that they've been studying. Yeah, I can't find that. And are so. Are you sure it's Palos Verdes? Could it be the fact that you're.

[A]

Saying it the way you say it is interesting? I say Palos Verdes.

[B]

You say it again.

[A]

Palos.

[B]

Palos.

[A]

And you're saying Palo.

[B]

You're saying panels.

[A]

How do you say it, Rob? I don't say it.

[B]

Try saying it.

[A]

Palos.

[B]

Palos. That's what I said, right? Palos Verdes.

[C]

Palos Verdes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I would say it.

[B]

I think you're saying it like that, just with your accent.

[A]

Hey, come on. I'm in the middle of a fact check and I'm trying to remember the name of that community your parents lived in at Palos Verdes.

[B]

TBD on that. Cuz I'm not getting any info from the Internet.

[A]

Only one. Just going to ask. Chat. I'm going to be specific. I saw a 60 minute segment about a retirement community in Palos Veries where they study aging. Period. Do you know which community that was? Laguna Woods.

[B]

Laguna Woods. Okay, let me.

[A]

The story centered on long running research project known as the 90 plus study. Yeah. Out of University of California Irvine which follows residents from that community who have lived into their 90s and beyond to learn what factors contributed to to longevity. Originally the residents had filled out lifestyle questionnaires decades earlier when the. Oh, when the community was known as Leisure World. Yes. That's what it, that's what it was originally called is Leisure World.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

That's why you weren't able to find it. Probably currently a large active senior retirement community. So the place you saw at Laguna Woods Retirement Community, formerly Leisure Wood in Southern California. Let's see if Leisurewood was in Pals Verde.

[B]

Yeah, that's the big question. Question.

[A]

Oh, his was Rolling Hills Estates.

[B]

Who's his?

[A]

My friend Jeff.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

His parents live there.

[C]

Leisure World. Rolling Hills is a city, so it.

[B]

Might just be Leisure World is in Seal Beach, California. Oh, not Palos Verdes.

[A]

Okay, well, maybe I've conflated where Jeff's folks lived.

[B]

Seal Beach, Orange County County. Okay, so that exists. But not. But not in Palos Verdes. Or in Palos Verdes. Rancho Palos Verdes. Palos verdes.

[A]

They are 28 miles apart.

[B]

So I'm correct.

[A]

No, you're correct. Yeah, you're correct.

[B]

Thank you, Monica.

[A]

You're right.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Also, they're 28 miles apart.

[B]

That's long in my opinion.

[A]

It is.

[B]

It is.

[A]

If you're like picking regions of the.

[B]

Country, Palos Verdes is specific.

[A]

Yeah. It's 28 miles up the ocean front from.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

From Seal Beach.

[B]

Yep. Different places.

[A]

Yes. Yes.

[B]

It just makes sense.

[A]

I'm saying it was a mistake and also is very, very close.

[B]

It makes total sense that when I was googling it. That's not coming up because it's not there.

[A]

That's true. That's 100% true.

[B]

Okay. Now a huge fact that I have to say is at the beginning of this episode, my hair's messed up.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And it's, it's like there's a bears on my forehead, in the middle of my forehead.

[A]

Okay. And that was just an accident. Did you fix it mid interview?

[B]

I did. Thank God.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Without Rob's help of saying cucumber or whatever you were supposed to say.

[A]

So would your preference be. People listen on audio for the. To the first third of the episode and then watch. Yes. The remaining.

[B]

Yes. I want you to skip the beginning where my hair is clearly messed up. Okay. First generation.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Generally refers to a person born in the US to immigrant parents, meaning their parents were born in another country. While the U.S. census Bureau defines the first generation as foreign born individuals themselves, this term can be confusing because some people like to. Children of immigrants, second generation by census often identify as first generation because they are the first in their family to grow up with dual cultural experiences, bridging their parents heritage in American culture. So I'm still one and a half.

[A]

Okay. I, I feel like it's one to one. I think I lost the first one.

[B]

And I think this one is more muddy. This is like, like children of immigrant children, children of immigrants. Second generation by census. That's me.

[A]

I understand that sentence to mean that the U.S. census is counting it, defining it one way, but that no one defines it that way other than the census.

[B]

If the census is defining it that way, I define it that way. We know that motto.

[A]

Okay. Because you're in lock step with all. You're in lockstep with the, all the government's declarations.

[B]

Just the census.

[A]

Okay. Just this one thing. Yeah, but according to this, what does logic tell you? How could someone who moves here at 50 years old be the first generation.

[B]

Yeah. First gen. To step foot in this country.

[A]

But their whole generation was spent in another place.

[B]

Well, also, that's not my situation. My mom's life was spent in America.

[A]

I understand that.

[B]

That's why.

[A]

I understand that. But she moved here from another country. She wasn't born here.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So I'm saying when you step foot. Right. And you're saying, no, it can't be that because they grew up.

[A]

Well, what I'm saying is the term generation refers to a segment of time from which people were born. So Gen X, you're born between, you know, whatever it is, 68 and 80. That's a generation. Well, if that, if you weren't here for that generation, the definition of the generation is you were born between this time and this time, but during this time and that time you were in another country. How on earth could you call that being a part of that generation?

[B]

But if you're growing up in that generation in, in America.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, you, you're, you're, you're focusing the whole thing on your mother's singular experience, right?

[B]

Yeah, because that's what we were talking about.

[A]

So she's the most extreme. Extreme in this example. I would say so. Sure. Even if we look at her, I would love to look at what generation she's a part of, which would probably be the baby boom generation.

[B]

Yes, she is. Yeah.

[A]

And I guarantee that the baby boom generation ended within a couple years after she was born. So what I'm saying is she was in India when the end of that, quote, generation we're looking at existed as a defined generation. So she couldn't have been an American part of that American generation when it ended before she even got here. Now there's another generation that has followed it. But when you're born here, you are intrinsically in that generation.

[B]

Why, though?

[A]

Because you didn't miss the window. Like your mother could have come here. Let's say you were born. You're what, you're millennial, and you didn't come here until we were now in the generation of Gen Z.

[B]

But was I six years old when Gen Z started? Right.

[A]

Like, I don't know. That's why it's so murky that obviously what's much More clean and would make. Would apply to everybody. Like for us to have a definition that would include your mother but exclude your father. It. We couldn't even come up with that definition.

[B]

Well, that's why I said I'm one and a half.

[A]

If we say when you're born here, that is officially the first generation, there's really no way that that can't be defined, defined or measured or it's saying.

[B]

Or according to the census, the first generation, it says you were born in China and moved to the U.S. yeah.

[A]

I have no beef with. I am no argument against what the census defined it as. I asked you what logically makes sense to you?

[B]

To me that makes sense. Like, to me it makes sense. Like, I'm not thinking of it at all in the way you're thinking of it as like millennial, like the, the way we break down general generations here as groups. To me, it's like this is almost a different definition. It's like the first generation of, of kids or second generation or people. The first generation of people to hit this land. Second generation.

[A]

Maybe we should start with defining the word degeneration. All of the people born and living at about the same time regarding. Started collectively. So that's kind of my argument. Right. Is like they weren't here at that time with this collective group of people considered that generation.

[B]

Right. But if you look up immigrant generations, that's like a different. That's its own Wikipedia. In sociology, people who permanently resettle to a new country are considered immigrants regardless of the legal status of their citizenship or residency. The census uses the term generational status. That's. That's what it. It's not talking about age and stuff. It's. It's its own thing within immigration.

[A]

I want to make another point, but I think we're getting heated over something that doesn't matter. I'm saying. Well, my question was just like, do we agree on the definition in the dictionary of generation? And you're on a Wikipedia page.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Versus the dictionary of what the word generation.

[B]

Can't you see that this, this, this iteration of immigrant generation generations is different from that generate that definition of generations, which is about age, age and growing up in a cohort or a group. This is how when you move here from another country, they define you.

[A]

Yes, that's the census. I've already, I've already submitted, surrendered, conceded to how the Census Bureau is doing it.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So I don't. So that's.

[B]

But it's about. My point is that immigration status is different than this like it's what you're called.

[A]

You're right, the census. Census has defined it that way. Yep.

[B]

Right.

[A]

No argument for me. That is what the census defined it by. I'm talking about everyone not in the census, in the real world that talks about the generation, my generation, blank generation, this dictionary generation. So we all have a very clear understanding of what our generation is. And so the only one we know is first from soup to nuts in that generation is the first one that was born here. Because they are in, in this collective. For me, I don't have any. I don't know why the census does it the way they do it, but I'm just saying why it said generally people think of first generation, except for the census. And why I think it is kind of intuitively makes sense is that you're born into this actual American generation. You can't really. I'm arguing you can't really join midway through.

[B]

But you're. But that's like. What if it went the reverse. What if it was. If it was Americans going to India? That's first generation, second generation too. And that's not going by our out like we don't. Indians don't have that.

[A]

I would not think if I moved to India tomorrow that I'm first generation Indian at all. But if I had a child with a 30 year old woman when I got there, I would think that child was the first Indian generation. They be Indian. Always had been, always will be.

[B]

Yeah. All right. Well, okay. She went to Westminster which is a private school in Atlanta. It is very fancy school.

[A]

Fancy pants.

[B]

I was impressed by that. Animals that eat poop. Yes. David said all I know says many animals. Animals eat puke poop. A behavior called coprology. Coprology to gain essential gut bacteria for digestion. Like baby calls. Elephants, pandas re ingest lost nutrients. Rabbits, rodents get vitamins. Guinea pigs or due to instinct, hunger dogs, dung beetles. Making it a common survival strategy for various species from insects to mammals.

[A]

I wonder how many calories are still in the poop.

[B]

Right? Good question. I don't know. Birds do it, salamanders do it. Hamsters, lemurs, monkeys, chimpanzees, wolves.

[A]

These are all very regal beasts.

[B]

I didn't see any. I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask if tigers do.

[A]

I bet not. Cuz they're solitary. Oh.

[B]

Do tigers eat. Eat animal poop?

[A]

Do they carry.

[B]

Do not typically eat animal poop as part of their regular diet because they're so regal. They're strict carnivores that consume meat.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

It says tigresses may consume their cubs feces to remove scent and protect them from predators.

[A]

Oh, good mom. That's a good mom.

[B]

There are rare documented cases of tigers eating elephant dying, likely for nutrient absorption or due to specific gut needs. That's like.

[A]

Yes, they do.

[B]

But that's. That's like. If people have. People have pika. And they, like, eat paper, they eat hair. Yeah, that's. That's what that is.

[A]

Yeah. I saw an episode of that show and the. The gal was eating her. The ashes of her mother or her father.

[C]

No.

[A]

Yeah. And she was, like, panicked she was going to run out of the ashes.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was like this. It was like one of these A and E, like strange obsession type shows. And there was a guy that was in love with his car and he would hump the hood of his car. Yes. It was on tv and it was treated so seriously. Yes, yes. Like academically, almost.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Yeah. And he would, like, wash it, and he'd get aroused as he was washing it.

[B]

Then he would start humping ejaculate on it.

[A]

Clearly.

[B]

I mean, clearly.

[A]

Well, if you hump the person you.

[B]

Love, well, you might ejaculate on the.

[A]

Ground, I think in his pants.

[B]

Oh, God.

[A]

God. Who knows what he's doing. When the sun went down.

[B]

Oh, when the cameras weren't on.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

God.

[A]

I was like, why doesn't he. The muffler.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, that's at least a whole.

[B]

But he didn't need to.

[A]

No. I think he was most attracted to, like, the hood and the bumper. Yeah.

[C]

The face.

[B]

More into the face and the body.

[A]

Wow. He wasn't an ass man.

[B]

Yeah. Wow. Okay, now, were they called water weenies to you? Yes, they were called water weenies. In your house?

[A]

No, on the shelf at DNC Dime store in Milford, Michigan.

[B]

Well, water snake is the. Like, you know, there's water snakes, there's water wigglies.

[A]

I can't trust you anymore.

[B]

I mean, if you type it water weenie. Super water weenie in Amazon is called a super squirt. And it looks like this. Yeah, that's something.

[A]

Water weenie.

[B]

If you type in water weenie.

[A]

Huh?

[B]

It says water snakes or water weenies. If water weenies are towable boat tubes, there are water weenies.

[A]

And.

[B]

And thank you.

[A]

I'm not saying they didn't have different names. I'm saying I didn't make up the name water weenie. The kind I bought were called Water Weenies. We didn't like make up the name.

[B]

So you think it was the brand?

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

Original Water Weenie is the super squirt. So that's not it. Water Sniper. Snake Wigglies, maybe they were called that in Michigan. Yeah, that's a squirt gun. That's not the thing. That's the original Water Weenie. On Instagram. They have an Instagram that I looked up. Feel free to get a squirt gun from Original Water Weenie. And enjoy your time. God. Remember water fights in the neighborhood? Did you guys do those? Have like squirt guns and water balloons and have. Have water fights?

[A]

That was a bit advanced too PG for my neighborhood. Oh, we had snowball fights. You know, you weren't hurt. Sure, yeah. Squirt was not. Not super. Yeah, it was a little, I think it was seen as a little baby baby business.

[B]

Oh my God. Even when you were like seven, you were a baby.

[A]

My cult, my, my peer was 12.

[B]

Right, okay.

[A]

Okay. You know, sure. I didn't get to like. I didn't do the Star wars toys. Like I wasn't really allowed to do the things that were my age.

[B]

Oh my God. Speaking of, you got a Star wars toy? Kind of. I have an anniversary present.

[A]

Oh my goodness.

[B]

For you.

[A]

Oh my goodness.

[B]

I didn't wrap it. Okay, now. Oh, it's another beanie baby worth a lot of money.

[A]

He looks just like Le Shitty. What's the difference between him and Liberty?

[B]

Because that one's name is Valentino.

[A]

Okay. Because he has a heart.

[B]

Yeah, he has a heart patch instead of American flag.

[A]

That's what differentiates him.

[B]

Yes, his name is Valentino. He's not as. He's more white. He's not like all covered in shit.

[A]

Well, right, but originally Le Shitty wasn't covered.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

He was this white.

[B]

He was original. Yeah. Oh wow.

[A]

Where'd you get this one?

[B]

I got it from my parents house. It was in the basement and I. You know the tag is. Oh God. Your tax is smelling it. Wow.

[A]

It smells like my grandparents motel.

[C]

It does?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Let me see.

[A]

Cuz it's probably a little moist in your basement. Yeah. Bury your nose in.

[B]

I know, I don't cuz I have makeup on and I don't want to get. But see, this is how it happens.

[A]

Uhhuh. Put it.

[B]

I can't smell anything.

[A]

Bury your nose. Don't worry about the makeup. Put it in his ass. That way the stainless is in his ass. Can't smell anything. It's probably because it's your home.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Yeah. Isn't it crazy? We can't smell our home?

[B]

That scares me so.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

Oh, no.

[A]

I'm getting a big old hit of kiwi here.

[B]

Oh. Does it smell really bad?

[A]

It smells. No. My grandpa's bathroom at the motel, he used Aquanet.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And some weird. I think a liquid deodorant. Like, I think he splashed it in his armpits or something.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Whatever that cacophony of smells was, which I enjoyed, it smelled like my Pippi's bathroom. Yeah. He also wore, like. He wore. Put, like a pomade in his hair that was in the mix.

[B]

Oh.

[C]

You know, is that much smell, like.

[A]

Somehow all those smells together. This is his clothes. Oh, big time. And then the soap that they used at the Colonial Motor Inn, the branded soap. I would love my. My brother to take a whiff of this. And I want to see if he.

[B]

Me too.

[A]

Because the other thing, My favorite smell in the world is occasionally I. My bathroom will smell like my grandparents kitchen. Bubba Bob and Grandma.

[B]

Your. Your bathroom.

[A]

Different grandparents. The ones that really raised me. Papa Bub and Grandma.

[B]

Right.

[A]

They brewed coffee all day long in a percolator.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it was humid because it was Michigan. And so my bathroom, sometimes, like, if someone takes a shower and I brew coffee, something happens. I just need a cigarette burning because they also smoked. They chain smoked.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I love that smell. I would give anything. And my uncle now lives in the house, and there's just no way the smell has been maintained. But, like, I would just walk through that door when my dad would drop us off, and the second the screen door open, I'd get in that kitchen and that smell, and I'd be like, oh, yeah. I'm gonna have the best three days. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. That's nice.

[A]

Yeah. But this is good, too. I liked being at the Colonial Mall. Motor in. I'm glad.

[B]

Glad that reminds me.

[A]

Yeah. Wow. Pippi.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

This is my Pippi. Oh, I'm gonna call him Pippi Bear.

[B]

Well, his name's Valentino.

[A]

Well, it was.

[B]

I ruined it. Like, I ruined. I ruined it like I ruined Liberty by removing its tag. I don't know why I kept doing that.

[A]

It's unlike you.

[B]

I know. I. I don't understand.

[A]

Because I am glad, though, because as it turned out, they were valueless. So it's like to not be able to enjoy it because it had a big tag hanging on worth.

[B]

Like that is expensive. Hold on.

[A]

I will give you $1,000 if you can get more than $20 for that bear.

[B]

And that one might not be because it's missing its tag, but Valentino, Beanie Baby, eBay.

[A]

$12?

[B]

No.

[A]

12 bucks.

[B]

No, the one in mint condition is $200.

[A]

Well, it's for sale for that. Let's see if anyone pays. Yeah.

[B]

And then there's one for 150. There is one for nine. 89. I'm not sure why, cuz there big.

[A]

Big delta between 79.

[B]

Yeah, those that are $10 are fakes. Mine's original.

[A]

Okay, so you got to get it authenticated. That's going to cost you some money.

[B]

Well, look, look at the tag. Look at the tag on him, on his butt that you've been eating. Yeah, I did ruin it also because I broke my name on it.

[A]

Who did you think was to steal it?

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Your brother wasn't even like around yet, was he? How old were you when you collecting these? I know you're going to say younger than you are, so I'm going to add two years to whatever you say.

[C]

No, no, no.

[B]

I was in like, I think it's peak was in when I was in like fourth grade and like all my friends had them.

[A]

Okay, so nine and ten. You're nine. Although you said you're super young when you joined so really just nine?

[B]

Yeah, I was probably nine.

[A]

So Neil is at best one years old.

[B]

I don't know if it was to keep from him.

[A]

I think is when you went to your girlfriend's house to play with your babies, you didn't want to get them mixed up maybe. Yeah, yeah. And your bmanship's improved. Did you use your left hand to write?

[C]

That was my handwriting.

[A]

That's a very small. Yeah, this thing is valueless, Monica. It's got. You've written your name on it. Doesn't have the tag. It does have, although not nearly as bad as le. There are stains on this thing. There's a, there's blue ink, there's. Oh, that was a fuzzball. You know, regardless, if someone gives you $10, don't even think about it. Take it. Take it. And as I'm saying, if you can get more than $20 for this, I will give you $100, $2,000. And no one, no one of the listeners can participate. I don't want someone bailing you out and offering you $21 for this. You got to sell on ebay under a pseudonym.

[B]

But then I got to show a.

[A]

Close up of the name. Yes, that's how collectibles work. You got to show them all the imperfections. And it's. That ad's going to get as dusty as this creature. No, I think I love it. It's worth more than $20 to me.

[B]

I'll tell you that. He's going to go for 2 to 3k. I have high hopes for him, Valentino. Okay, that's it.

[A]

Those are all the facts.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Love you. Love you.