Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard

Guest: Dr. Coltan Scrivner (on Morbid Curiosities)

Date: December 10, 2025
Summary by Podcast Summarizer

Overview

This episode of Armchair Expert features Dr. Coltan Scrivner, a psychologist and author specializing in the study of morbid curiosity and the psychology behind humanity's fascination with horror, violence, and true crime. Dr. Scrivner discusses his new book, Morbidly Curious: A Scientist Explains Why We Can't Look Away, and takes Dax, Monica, and listeners on a deep dive into why people are drawn to dark, scary, or violent topics—ranging from haunted houses to true crime podcasts, horror movies, and beyond. The conversation spans evolutionary theory, psychosocial insights, paranormal experiences, parenting, and cultural shifts in horror consumption.

Key Topics & Discussion Points

1. Introducing Coltan Scrivner

• Background and Academic Journey ([03:07]–[12:07])
  • Coltan's roots in Oklahoma and the Ozarks, running a Victorian bed & breakfast, and hosting "zombie festivals."
  • Transition from anthropology and forensic biology to a PhD in behavior biology, blending evolutionary and psychological approaches.
  • Early fascination with horror through games like Resident Evil.
  • Research at haunted attractions including immersive, field-based science.
  • Notable quote:

    "I hate the, like, sterile lab environment. Much prefer doing the nitty gritty, like in the field, real stuff. It's very fun." — Coltan Scrivner [09:07]

2. The Science of Morbid Curiosity

• Why Are We Attracted to Scary and Morbid Things? ([12:07]–[16:18])

  • Humans punish violence morally, but create exceptions (sports, horror, ritualized violence).
  • Initial psych studies focused on eye-tracking and attention—acts of violence draw visual focus, overriding the instinct to look at faces.
  • Paradoxes about enjoying what we say we dislike; tension between repulsion and attraction.

• Physical and Psychological Responses ([18:26]–[24:03])

  • "Sweet spot" of fear: People enjoy horror most when it's about a 7 out of 10 on the fear scale.
  • Regulation behaviors: turning lights off to increase fear or watching with friends to decrease.
  • Practicing emotional regulation through “safe fear play,” akin to exposure/immersion therapy.
  • Notable quote:

    "You're always trying to regulate ... practicing regulating your anxiety and your fear, which is something you can use later in the real world." — Coltan Scrivner [19:09]

• Three Types of Horror Fans ([19:59]–[24:07])

  • Adrenaline Junkies: Chase the physical rush.
  • White Knucklers: Don’t enjoy the fear per se, but enjoy overcoming it or learning about themselves.
  • Dark Copers: Use horror as a tool for processing anxiety, depression, or existential dread.
  • Dax: "The accomplishment."
    Scrivner: “They reported that they felt like they learned something about themselves... that was the second group.” [21:52]
  • Scrivner: “There was a third group that we didn’t expect... using scary experiences to deal with difficult emotions...” [24:07]

3. Defining Morbid Curiosity & Its Components

• Breaking Down the "Morbid Curiosity" Concept ([25:01]–[37:02])

  • Previous research was sparse and outdated; most public ideas were anecdotes or myths.
  • Scrivner’s research identified four distinct domains:
    1. Minds of Dangerous People: Fascination with understanding criminal or dangerous minds (true crime, conspiracies).
    2. Violence: Interest in acts of violence themselves (contacts, UFC, sports).
    3. Bodily Injuries: Interest in aftermath/physical consequences (fail videos, accidents, rubbernecking).
    4. Paranormal Danger: Interest in the unexplained, ghosts, aliens, witches.

    “[People] give those agentic beings (ghosts, aliens)... It's better to guess.” — [35:34]

• Evolutionary & Cultural Explanations ([37:23]–[41:20])

  • Humans' unique ability to model danger socially and vicariously (storytelling, media) massively amplifies "cheap learning" about threats.
  • Stories act as collective learning and status exchange.
  • Notable quote:

    “We can envision future scenarios...stories allow us to very, very cheaply simulate potential situations.” — Coltan Scrivner [41:01]

4. True Crime, Gender, and Social Purpose

• Why Are Women Drawn to True Crime? ([37:02]–[48:16])

  • Women are statistically more likely to be drawn to and enjoy true crime content.
  • Rooted in evolutionary, safety, and social modeling needs—learning to identify hidden threats.
  • Dax: "They're after the why or what did the person not notice about the attacker that they should have. That's what they're after." [43:01]
  • Scrivner: “Humans face a really unique problem ... once we developed language, we could conspire... That shifted the social dynamics of humans...” [44:00]
  • Overconsumption can mislead people to overestimate personal risk, but balanced consumption shows no evidence of creating violence.

• Misconceptions About Morbid Curiosity and Violence

  • Consuming true crime or horror is not predictive of real-world aggression or pathology.
  • Declines with age as practical learning yields to community, nostalgia, or genre affiliation.

5. Physical Violence, Sports, and Learning

• Why (Some) People Love Sports Like UFC ([49:30]–[51:13])
  • Rules and ritual buffer primal experiences—enabling safe, vicarious learning and catharsis.
  • Viewers may be practicing for rare but high-stakes real risks, e.g., being beaten up.
  • Dax: "These are guys who went to bars and were afraid another guy was going to beat the shit out of them. And it's a very living fear..." [49:57]
  • Sports’ popularity and the desire for 'fair' violence (rules, weight classes).

6. Pandemics, Contagion, and Bodily Threats

• Morbid Curiosity in Widespread Contagion ([53:09]–[55:37])
  • Surge in popularity for movies like "Contagion" during COVID-19; perfect correlation in Google trends.
  • Horror and pandemic media fulfill an informational and emotional need during times of uncertainty.

7. The Paranormal and Emotional Truths

• Why We Still Fear Ghosts, Even If We Don’t Believe ([55:54]–[62:19])

  • First-person ghost hunt and unexplained experiences (Crescent Hotel, Savannah).
  • Studies: people’s experience of "spooky" events influenced by context, not belief.
  • Dax: “There’s a logical truth and there’s an emotional truth... quite often they’re just not.” [68:24]

• Cross-cultural and Ritual Beliefs

  • Power of stories, supernatural narratives, and anthropomorphizing misfortune as agency (ghosts, witches).
  • The body’s reactions often override rational beliefs.

8. Parenting, Children, and Spooky Play

• Should We Let Kids Indulge in Fear? ([74:08]–[75:04])
  • Regulating fear through play (games, movies) is developmentally beneficial for emotional regulation.
  • Parents' desire to shield kids from fear may backfire.

    “If you don’t let them do that in a playful way when they're young, it's going to be difficult for them to learn how to regulate those feelings later on.” — Coltan Scrivner [74:13]

9. Morbid Curiosity in Modern Life

• Rising Popularity of Horror ([76:12]–[78:41])

  • Horror has doubled/tripled in market share over recent decades, with a spike since COVID.
  • Coltan’s theory: Adults rediscovered horror as a tool for processing fear during real-world uncertainty; now production follows demand.
  • Cycle of new fans and increased media production.

• Is Morbid Curiosity Linked to Real Violence? ([78:41]–[80:51])

  • No evidence that horror or violent media cause real violence (even among killers, their media consumption is not out of the norm).
  • Notable quote:

    "If you have all these other things ... maybe then you get a cocktail of things, right? [But] by itself, and even in combination with other traits, it doesn’t seem to be related to any kind of dangerous or psychopathological outcomes." — Coltan Scrivner [80:43]

10. Dreams, Nightmares, and Evolution

• Why Do We Dream About Threats? ([69:50]–[73:54])
  • "Threat simulation theory"—dreams, especially nightmares, may have evolved as a tool for rehearsing danger.
  • Many animals dream; humans may have started with nightmares and expanded to more diverse dreams.

11. The Morbid Curiosity Scale

• Measuring Morbid Curiosity ([69:06]–[69:47])
  • 24-question scale available online, quantifying overall morbid curiosity and its four domains.

Memorable Moments & Quotes

• "That is what morbid curiosity is. It’s this mixed emotional experience of, ah, man, I really kind of want to see it, but I hope it’s not there. But if it is... I want to see it." — Coltan [27:07]
• “Most horror fans are not adrenaline junkies. It's more nuanced than that.” — Coltan [21:04]
• “Humans are much less reactively aggressive than most other animals ... but we developed what’s called proactive aggression.” — Coltan [44:47]
• “By itself ... [morbid curiosity] doesn’t seem to be related to any dangerous or psychopathological outcomes.” — Coltan [80:43]
• “If you don’t let them do that in a playful way when they’re young, it’s going to be difficult for them to learn how to regulate those feelings later on.” — Coltan [74:13]

Important Timestamps

• 03:07–04:25: Coltan’s quirky small-town background and zombie festival.
• 12:07–16:18: How violence grabs our attention, paradox of enjoyment.
• 18:26–19:27: The "sweet spot" of fear for maximum enjoyment.
• 19:59–24:07: The three core types of horror fans and their motivations.
• 25:01–37:02: Four domains of morbid curiosity and how they developed.
• 44:00–44:47: Linguistic evolution and proactive aggression.
• 53:09–55:37: Pandemic, “Contagion”, and our thirst for information in crisis.
• 55:54–62:19: Ghost stories, “the power of context,” and emotive truth.
• 69:06–69:47: The morbid curiosity scale and how to take it.
• 76:12–78:41: Horror's rising popularity post-COVID.
• 78:41–80:51: No evidence linking morbid media to real-life violence.

Tone & Style

The conversation alternates between scientific explanations, personal anecdotes, playful teasing, and honest curiosity. Dax and Monica oscillate between humor, vulnerability, and genuine interest, always keeping the atmosphere both thoughtful and light—even when exploring some of the darkest corners of human psychology.

Summary

Dr. Coltan Scrivner’s research provides a rich, evolutionary and empirical understanding of why humans are intrigued by violence, horror, true crime, and the supernatural. Instead of being pathological or dangerous, morbid curiosity is revealed as adaptive: a playground for practicing emotional regulation and threat modeling, a means of collective storytelling, and a tool for social cohesion and learning. Parents, horror fans, and skeptics alike can relax—our love for the macabre is, in fact, deeply human.