Coltan Scrivner (on morbid curiosities)

Summary

Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard

Guest: Dr. Coltan Scrivner (on Morbid Curiosities)

Date: December 10, 2025
Summary by Podcast Summarizer

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Overview

This episode of Armchair Expert features Dr. Coltan Scrivner, a psychologist and author specializing in the study of morbid curiosity and the psychology behind humanity's fascination with horror, violence, and true crime. Dr. Scrivner discusses his new book, Morbidly Curious: A Scientist Explains Why We Can't Look Away, and takes Dax, Monica, and listeners on a deep dive into why people are drawn to dark, scary, or violent topics—ranging from haunted houses to true crime podcasts, horror movies, and beyond. The conversation spans evolutionary theory, psychosocial insights, paranormal experiences, parenting, and cultural shifts in horror consumption.

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Key Topics & Discussion Points

1. Introducing Coltan Scrivner

• Background and Academic Journey ([03:07]–[12:07])
  • Coltan's roots in Oklahoma and the Ozarks, running a Victorian bed & breakfast, and hosting "zombie festivals."
  • Transition from anthropology and forensic biology to a PhD in behavior biology, blending evolutionary and psychological approaches.
  • Early fascination with horror through games like Resident Evil.
  • Research at haunted attractions including immersive, field-based science.
  • Notable quote:

    "I hate the, like, sterile lab environment. Much prefer doing the nitty gritty, like in the field, real stuff. It's very fun." — Coltan Scrivner [09:07]

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2. The Science of Morbid Curiosity

• Why Are We Attracted to Scary and Morbid Things? ([12:07]–[16:18])

  • Humans punish violence morally, but create exceptions (sports, horror, ritualized violence).
  • Initial psych studies focused on eye-tracking and attention—acts of violence draw visual focus, overriding the instinct to look at faces.
  • Paradoxes about enjoying what we say we dislike; tension between repulsion and attraction.

• Physical and Psychological Responses ([18:26]–[24:03])

  • "Sweet spot" of fear: People enjoy horror most when it's about a 7 out of 10 on the fear scale.
  • Regulation behaviors: turning lights off to increase fear or watching with friends to decrease.
  • Practicing emotional regulation through “safe fear play,” akin to exposure/immersion therapy.
  • Notable quote:

    "You're always trying to regulate ... practicing regulating your anxiety and your fear, which is something you can use later in the real world." — Coltan Scrivner [19:09]

• Three Types of Horror Fans ([19:59]–[24:07])

  • Adrenaline Junkies: Chase the physical rush.
  • White Knucklers: Don’t enjoy the fear per se, but enjoy overcoming it or learning about themselves.
  • Dark Copers: Use horror as a tool for processing anxiety, depression, or existential dread.
  • Dax: "The accomplishment."
    Scrivner: “They reported that they felt like they learned something about themselves... that was the second group.” [21:52]
  • Scrivner: “There was a third group that we didn’t expect... using scary experiences to deal with difficult emotions...” [24:07]

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3. Defining Morbid Curiosity & Its Components

• Breaking Down the "Morbid Curiosity" Concept ([25:01]–[37:02])

  • Previous research was sparse and outdated; most public ideas were anecdotes or myths.
  • Scrivner’s research identified four distinct domains:
    1. Minds of Dangerous People: Fascination with understanding criminal or dangerous minds (true crime, conspiracies).
    2. Violence: Interest in acts of violence themselves (contacts, UFC, sports).
    3. Bodily Injuries: Interest in aftermath/physical consequences (fail videos, accidents, rubbernecking).
    4. Paranormal Danger: Interest in the unexplained, ghosts, aliens, witches.

    “[People] give those agentic beings (ghosts, aliens)... It's better to guess.” — [35:34]

• Evolutionary & Cultural Explanations ([37:23]–[41:20])

  • Humans' unique ability to model danger socially and vicariously (storytelling, media) massively amplifies "cheap learning" about threats.
  • Stories act as collective learning and status exchange.
  • Notable quote:

    “We can envision future scenarios...stories allow us to very, very cheaply simulate potential situations.” — Coltan Scrivner [41:01]

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4. True Crime, Gender, and Social Purpose

• Why Are Women Drawn to True Crime? ([37:02]–[48:16])

  • Women are statistically more likely to be drawn to and enjoy true crime content.
  • Rooted in evolutionary, safety, and social modeling needs—learning to identify hidden threats.
  • Dax: "They're after the why or what did the person not notice about the attacker that they should have. That's what they're after." [43:01]
  • Scrivner: “Humans face a really unique problem ... once we developed language, we could conspire... That shifted the social dynamics of humans...” [44:00]
  • Overconsumption can mislead people to overestimate personal risk, but balanced consumption shows no evidence of creating violence.

• Misconceptions About Morbid Curiosity and Violence

  • Consuming true crime or horror is not predictive of real-world aggression or pathology.
  • Declines with age as practical learning yields to community, nostalgia, or genre affiliation.

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5. Physical Violence, Sports, and Learning

• Why (Some) People Love Sports Like UFC ([49:30]–[51:13])
  • Rules and ritual buffer primal experiences—enabling safe, vicarious learning and catharsis.
  • Viewers may be practicing for rare but high-stakes real risks, e.g., being beaten up.
  • Dax: "These are guys who went to bars and were afraid another guy was going to beat the shit out of them. And it's a very living fear..." [49:57]
  • Sports’ popularity and the desire for 'fair' violence (rules, weight classes).

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6. Pandemics, Contagion, and Bodily Threats

• Morbid Curiosity in Widespread Contagion ([53:09]–[55:37])
  • Surge in popularity for movies like "Contagion" during COVID-19; perfect correlation in Google trends.
  • Horror and pandemic media fulfill an informational and emotional need during times of uncertainty.

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7. The Paranormal and Emotional Truths

• Why We Still Fear Ghosts, Even If We Don’t Believe ([55:54]–[62:19])

  • First-person ghost hunt and unexplained experiences (Crescent Hotel, Savannah).
  • Studies: people’s experience of "spooky" events influenced by context, not belief.
  • Dax: “There’s a logical truth and there’s an emotional truth... quite often they’re just not.” [68:24]

• Cross-cultural and Ritual Beliefs

  • Power of stories, supernatural narratives, and anthropomorphizing misfortune as agency (ghosts, witches).
  • The body’s reactions often override rational beliefs.

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8. Parenting, Children, and Spooky Play

• Should We Let Kids Indulge in Fear? ([74:08]–[75:04])
  • Regulating fear through play (games, movies) is developmentally beneficial for emotional regulation.
  • Parents' desire to shield kids from fear may backfire.

    “If you don’t let them do that in a playful way when they're young, it's going to be difficult for them to learn how to regulate those feelings later on.” — Coltan Scrivner [74:13]

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9. Morbid Curiosity in Modern Life

• Rising Popularity of Horror ([76:12]–[78:41])

  • Horror has doubled/tripled in market share over recent decades, with a spike since COVID.
  • Coltan’s theory: Adults rediscovered horror as a tool for processing fear during real-world uncertainty; now production follows demand.
  • Cycle of new fans and increased media production.

• Is Morbid Curiosity Linked to Real Violence? ([78:41]–[80:51])

  • No evidence that horror or violent media cause real violence (even among killers, their media consumption is not out of the norm).
  • Notable quote:

    "If you have all these other things ... maybe then you get a cocktail of things, right? [But] by itself, and even in combination with other traits, it doesn’t seem to be related to any kind of dangerous or psychopathological outcomes." — Coltan Scrivner [80:43]

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10. Dreams, Nightmares, and Evolution

• Why Do We Dream About Threats? ([69:50]–[73:54])
  • "Threat simulation theory"—dreams, especially nightmares, may have evolved as a tool for rehearsing danger.
  • Many animals dream; humans may have started with nightmares and expanded to more diverse dreams.

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11. The Morbid Curiosity Scale

• Measuring Morbid Curiosity ([69:06]–[69:47])
  • 24-question scale available online, quantifying overall morbid curiosity and its four domains.

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• "That is what morbid curiosity is. It’s this mixed emotional experience of, ah, man, I really kind of want to see it, but I hope it’s not there. But if it is... I want to see it." — Coltan [27:07]
• “Most horror fans are not adrenaline junkies. It's more nuanced than that.” — Coltan [21:04]
• “Humans are much less reactively aggressive than most other animals ... but we developed what’s called proactive aggression.” — Coltan [44:47]
• “By itself ... [morbid curiosity] doesn’t seem to be related to any dangerous or psychopathological outcomes.” — Coltan [80:43]
• “If you don’t let them do that in a playful way when they’re young, it’s going to be difficult for them to learn how to regulate those feelings later on.” — Coltan [74:13]

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Important Timestamps

• 03:07–04:25: Coltan’s quirky small-town background and zombie festival.
• 12:07–16:18: How violence grabs our attention, paradox of enjoyment.
• 18:26–19:27: The "sweet spot" of fear for maximum enjoyment.
• 19:59–24:07: The three core types of horror fans and their motivations.
• 25:01–37:02: Four domains of morbid curiosity and how they developed.
• 44:00–44:47: Linguistic evolution and proactive aggression.
• 53:09–55:37: Pandemic, “Contagion”, and our thirst for information in crisis.
• 55:54–62:19: Ghost stories, “the power of context,” and emotive truth.
• 69:06–69:47: The morbid curiosity scale and how to take it.
• 76:12–78:41: Horror's rising popularity post-COVID.
• 78:41–80:51: No evidence linking morbid media to real-life violence.

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Tone & Style

The conversation alternates between scientific explanations, personal anecdotes, playful teasing, and honest curiosity. Dax and Monica oscillate between humor, vulnerability, and genuine interest, always keeping the atmosphere both thoughtful and light—even when exploring some of the darkest corners of human psychology.

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Summary

Dr. Coltan Scrivner’s research provides a rich, evolutionary and empirical understanding of why humans are intrigued by violence, horror, true crime, and the supernatural. Instead of being pathological or dangerous, morbid curiosity is revealed as adaptive: a playground for practicing emotional regulation and threat modeling, a means of collective storytelling, and a tool for social cohesion and learning. Parents, horror fans, and skeptics alike can relax—our love for the macabre is, in fact, deeply human.

Transcript

[A]

Wondry plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now. Join Wondry plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome welcome to Armchair Expert. Experts on Expert. I'm Dan Shepard and I'm joined by Lily Padman.

[B]

Facts just farted.

[A]

Shut up. You don't know anything about farts. And no, I didn't. And nor did I. Our guest, Colton Scribner. Colton is an author and a psychologist. He is an internationally recognized expert on morbid curiosity and the psychology of horror and true crime. He has a very fascinating book called Morbidly Curious. A Scientist Explains why We Can't Look Away. This is great. Why do guys like mma? Why do women like true crime? We get all the answers.

[B]

It's pretty interesting. All of it's interesting. Humans draw to morbid stuff.

[A]

Yes. So that we can protect ourselves.

[B]

Ultimately, it has a good. There's a good reason. We're just so fragile.

[A]

We're so scared. Please enjoy Colton Scrivener. Thank you to our presenting sponsor, Audible, for supporting this episode. Armchairs audible's best of 2025 collection is here. The year's top audiobooks, podcasts and originals across every genre. Their editors spent countless hours listening and debating to hand pick this year's must listens. If you want to finish the year with something you know is going to hit, check out Audible's best of 2025 and discover why there's more to imagine when you listen, go to audible.com bestof2025 we are supported by ServiceNow. You know what I love not having to do boring, repetitive stuff. I want to focus on the interesting conversations, the creative work, the things that really matter to me. And apparently that's exactly what' ServiceNow does for entire organizations. AI is only as powerful as the platform it's built into. Here's the thing. ServiceNow has basically become the operating system of AI. Instead of Frankensteining together different tools, ServiceNow unifies people, data, workflows and AI connecting every corner of your business. That's why it's no surprise that more than 85% of the Fortune 500 use the ServiceNow AI platform. Talking HR customer service, every department you can think of. And here's what's cool. They got Idris Elba as their brand ambassador. I mean, come on, if you're going to have someone represent your company, might as well be the guy who's basically the CEO everyone wants to be, right? With AI agents working together Autonomously. Anyone in any department can focus on the work that matters Most. Learn how ServiceNow puts AI to work for [e-mail].

[C]

He'S an upchurcher.

He's an upchurch.

He's anchor.

[A]

Colton, how are you? Are you on a big, long press tour?

[C]

Kind of, yeah. So I'm in LA until Thursday. I got in yesterday. I had a talk at Orange County Library down in Foothill Ranch.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And then I had NPR this morning.

[A]

Who? Larry Mant.

[C]

It was All Things Considered Elite.

[B]

Oh, All Things Considered. Great.

[A]

Or lots of.

[B]

A lot of cachet.

[A]

Elevated. Had you been on NPR before?

[C]

Yeah, yeah, several times. But not in studio because I live in the Ozark Mountains. There's not really a good NPR studio over there. Yeah.

[A]

How close to the lakes?

[C]

I have Beaver Lake and Table Rock surrounding where I live. So I live in a little Victorian town. And the Ozarks like a little travel destination town.

[A]

And you're hosting a zombie festival there?

[C]

I did last Saturday. It was fantastic.

[A]

Tell me how many zombies showed up?

[C]

I have to ask the police. They give me these, like, magical estimates. Last year I said, how many people do you think came? And they're like, oh, probably 20,000.

[A]

Okay. So they're.

[C]

It's probably. It probably is 15,000, though. Really? Yeah.

[A]

Do they all buy tickets?

[C]

No, it's a free event.

[A]

It's a free event. You could be getting filthy rich off this. $10 a pop.

[C]

Sell merch.

[A]

You sell merch? What kind of merch?

[B]

What does it look like?

[C]

We have shirt this year that has a big. We have a brain buffet. It's a gelatin brain eating competition. You have to dress as a zombie, eat a big anatomically sized gelatin brain, which is a lot harder than you think it is. Wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's a lot of jello.

[C]

That's a lot of jello.

[A]

Because what, the brain weighs, like two pounds or something? Is that a couple more pounds?

[B]

We should know from Jared McCarthy.

[A]

I used to think it was more, and then you corrected me in a fact check. I thought it was like £5. I think that's your whole thing.

[B]

What does he say the human brain weighs?

[A]

Let's find out.

[C]

I'm gonna bet it's six pounds.

[A]

Six pounds.

[C]

I'm gonna guess six.

[B]

I think it's.

[A]

You're gonna say three. Because it's safe. It's between us. You be dumb not to.

[B]

I say I think it's £8.

[C]

Yeah. If anything, I think I'm under it. I would say six or more.

[A]

We're gonna get a real answer here.

[C]

This is not a dried out brain. This is like a fully wet in your throat.

[A]

Yeah. How much does a human brain weigh? Three pounds.

[B]

Oh, no.

[C]

Maybe whoever wrote that their brain weighs three.

[A]

A newborn is 0.8 to 0.9 pounds.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

An adult male is 1350 to 1400 grams. Adult females, sorry, girls. 1200 to 1300. No wonder they're so stupid.

[C]

No wonder.

[B]

I've been looking for a reason.

[A]

It's right here in black and white. Wow, that's an incredible turnout. And I can't imagine there's accommodations for everyone there. Do people camp?

[C]

A little Both. So Eureka is a tourist town. There's about 2,000 people that live there, which I love. Victorian houses and architecture everywhere. Kind of like preserved. Spooky. Spooky. America's most haunted hotel there, supposedly.

[A]

Okay. And you went there specifically because of that architecture?

[C]

I grew up a couple of hours from there, so my parents went there for vacations. We would go sometimes as an adult. When I was in grad school in Chicago, if I would drive down to Oklahoma to visit family for holidays, it's about halfway, so I would stay there. After grad school, I was living in the bay. I was working at Meta as a researcher, and I went to Eureka Springs. This would have been 2023 for New Year's. Like 22 into 23. I stayed at this little Airbnb. And then behind it was like an old school Victorian bed and breakfast that was for sale. And I thought I was like, I bet I could run a bed and breakfast. Whoa. So I move.

[A]

Bet I could run a pub brush.

[B]

That's a bit like.

[C]

That's how like almost all of my things. I bet I could do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

A little naive optimism.

[C]

Yes. I moved in and kind of renovated, got it going again. It was in pretty good shape, but it needed a few things.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

And then after about a year, I got an innkeeper and I moved to a different house in town.

[A]

Okay, great.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And what was the year like where you were interfacing with all the guests?

[C]

It was cool. What I like about Eureka is that it's a small town. I know all my neighbors. It's very homey, artsy little town and. But it gets like a million visitors a year for a population of 2,000.

[B]

That's crazy.

[A]

Mostly because of the lakes.

[C]

In the summer people come because there are festivals all summer, all fall, all spring. There are lakes that people come for in the summer. Lots of good hiking, mountain biking, and People just come to shop.

[A]

We're missing the boat.

[B]

And I want to go to the Spooky Zombies.

[A]

Brad Pitt has a property there.

[B]

Brad, invite us.

[A]

Brad Pitt. And then you teach at asu?

[C]

No, I don't teach. I'm just a researcher at asu.

[A]

Okay, explain that.

[C]

I have an affiliation with the psychology department there, working on a National Science foundation grant looking at risk management and how we can use scary play to better plan for risks in the future.

[A]

Right, right, right, right, right, right. Okay, now we're going to start at the beginning. So you grew up kind of by Eureka.

[C]

Four hours away, actually.

[A]

Four hours.

[B]

Substantial.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

In Missouri.

[C]

Oklahoma.

[A]

In Oklahoma.

[B]

He's also from Oklahoma. Brad.

[A]

Brad's from Shawnee.

[B]

Wasn't he born in Oklahoma?

[C]

Yes, he was born in Shawnee, Oklahoma.

[A]

Born there, but grew up for like.

[C]

One minute and then he left immediately. Because he's a smart man.

[A]

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[B]

But we still count it.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Anyways, what did mom and dad do in Oklahoma?

[C]

My dad, since I was really young, has been a boiler operator.

[A]

Where Is still using a boiler. Right. He's on a steamship crossing the Atlantic.

[C]

He worked at the college, I believe it was OU Hall Science Center. University of Oklahoma's health science center. They have boilers and chillers for the hospitals. He works at the VA now, just down the street. But the veterans hospital has boilers, chillers.

[A]

These things bust down so much that they have to have an on staff, Correct?

[C]

Yes. Like when there's government shutdowns. He's still working.

[A]

Oh, wow. And then Mom.

[C]

Mom has had a couple different jobs growing up. She also works at the VA now. Both blue collar. They worked really, really hard and were good parents. They always provided, made sure that we had what we needed, even though we weren't super wealthy. Yeah.

[A]

Do you have siblings?

[C]

Younger sister.

[A]

And is she academic as well?

[C]

She's not. I'm the only person in my family that's gone to college.

[A]

And did they make fun of you?

[C]

And I just kept going. Yeah.

[A]

You can't stop.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You don't want to leave.

[C]

They're very supportive of it. My sister is an airplane mechanic.

[A]

Are you mechanical? Because it sounds like it should be in your genes.

[C]

I enjoy doing things with my hands. You wouldn't want me to work on an airplane?

[A]

Not one. I'm a Passeng.

[C]

No, no. But I do enjoy it. There's something satisfying about making something with your hands.

[A]

Endlessly rewarding. Especially if you don't have the right parts and you have to fabricate or make Something work that wasn't designed to work. That's where all the joy is.

[C]

You do that in science a little bit sometimes for experiments, things go wrong. I love field studies for that reason, but I do research at Haunted Attractions. You kind of have to come up with stuff on the fly because you take it to the field, something breaks, something doesn't work. You have to improvise. That's like the most fun. I hate the, like sterile lab environment. Much prefer doing the nitty gritty, like in the field, real stuff. It's very fun.

[A]

And where did you go to undergrad?

[C]

Oklahoma Baptist University. And I'm not Baptist.

[A]

Okay, Were most of the student body Baptist or are they like you?

[C]

A lot of them were, but it was a good experience because obviously Oklahoma is very religious and I think, you know, especially universities now. It was a good experience for me to have four years of understanding that that world that I'm not really a part of is normal. For the most part. They're like normal, nice people.

[A]

That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

There are some crazy ones. Just like there's some crazy ones in any.

[B]

We're all craz.

[A]

We've had plenty of crazy atheists. I've been one of them at times.

[C]

But it was good. It was a small private school, so we had small class sizes. It was a good learning experience, especially for someone who didn't have anyone in my family who went to college. I didn't even know anything about college. So having the smaller class sizes, knowing your professors, it was much better.

[A]

Right, and what did you major in there?

[C]

Anthropology.

[A]

Okay, wonderful. Cultural or physical?

[C]

We just had anthropology.

[A]

Okay, great.

[C]

He was a cultural anthropologist, but was very biologically interested.

[A]

And then you go to graduate school.

[C]

Went to master's. First University of Central Oklahoma, where my advisor was the former head of the FBI lab and I did a forensic biology.

[A]

Oh, whoa, that's so cool. What kind of things were you.

[C]

DNA was my thing.

[A]

DNA. So it's gathered, it's put in some machine that does it all.

[C]

We kind of learned the old school technique, which was the gel electrophoresis. Putting it in the gel and letting it run down. And you see the bands, you've probably seen that on like CSI or something.

[A]

One battle after another.

[B]

It's in there.

[A]

That was the system they chose to use. Remember in their scene if their father and daughter.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

And you see the lines line up.

[A]

Did you see one battle after another?

[C]

No.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Oh, that's a big part.

[A]

Yes, very. In fact. Might be a spoiler I know.

[B]

And I couldn't. I also couldn't remember. They tell you what's going to be bad and what's going to be good. But then when we see it, I was like, I don't remember what was good or bad.

[C]

And you got confused.

[A]

Okay, so you dug that. So you got a master's in forensic biology. What do we get our PhD in? Behavioral, kind of.

[C]

Yes. So the department was weird. It's an interdisciplinary department. I've always had an interdisciplinary background. I find it the most interesting and fun way to ask questions. Anthropology and biology undergrad, forensics, Forensic biology Masters. My PhD was at university of Chicago in Comparative Human Development, which had anthropologists, sociologists, biologists and psychologists kind of all in one department. My track within it was behavior biology. So I was really interested in the biological aspects of why humans behave like we behave, which meant asking a lot of questions about how animals behave, about how humans may have evolved over time.

[A]

Evolutionary.

[C]

It was sort of an evolutionary biology kind of track.

[A]

Okay, now, when does your interest in horror movies begin? Obviously predates all this. Right.

[C]

Okay, you mean non academically?

[A]

Non academically. What was your gateway horror film?

[C]

I think it was a game, actually. When I was a kid. Probably too young to be playing it, but I remember finding a copy of Resident Evil, the original old school Resident Evil 1, and playing that on PlayStation 1 when I was five or six or so.

[A]

Is that a ghoul with a shotgun? Am I thinking of a different game?

[C]

No, no. Resident Evil is the zombie game. It's like the apocalypse. In this case, they were at like a mansion. Zombie apocalypse, third person, but fixed camera, so you can't turn around. Back in the day, you couldn't just save a game whenever you wanted. You had to go to a safe room to save it. That's like extra scary, right? You had to find the safe room to be safe. That was my gateway into it. It was a terrifying game for me, but it was like, if I can find the safe room, I can plan and collect myself and continue regulate. Yeah, great.

[A]

When then does your academic pursuit start looking into the world of spooky?

[C]

Probably around the first year or second year of my PhD. And like any good curious PhD student, I was just interested in everything. Okay. I have to kind of specialize in something. And so I got kind of interested in these paradoxes about human behavior. So one of those is that humans are interested in violence, but they find it morally bad. Right. So in almost every case we punish violence and push it away. But there are some Cases where it's not only okay, but it's actually entertaining. Right. And we promote it.

[B]

Like football.

[C]

Yes. Or. Or the Romans in the Coliseum is the classic example. You find examples of this. Usually it's ritualized in other cultures and ritualized through games in our culture too. And it was interesting to me that we could make this distinction in something that seemed so black and white and really quick.

[A]

When you started, was the current explanation, oh, this is kind of a collective processing of this fear or aversion we have. There's something cathartic about us all being able to gather and witness the thing we're afraid of without participating. What was the common explanation back then?

[C]

There wasn't. Certainly wasn't one that was founded on empirical work, really. Right, right. It was kind of theoretical conjecture, which is fine, but there was no. Here's the study that tells you why we do. Some of it was that. Some of it was that there were some researchers who thought about it as a type of play in the case of sports, and preparation or ritualization of certain actions that we don't do anymore. I was really interested in how individuals made that distinction, because if you see violence out on the street, it feels bad, but then if you see it in a boxing ring, it feels good. And I was interested in within someone's mind, how are they making that distinction and what is going on. And so I did some eye tracking studies to see where people would look when they looked at different types of violence, whether it was sanctioned or unsanctioned, and had them talk about it and tried to tie some of their eye movements to what they were saying and how they were making sense of it.

[A]

And in those early ones, what were you finding? Was there a category most people looked away from and a category most people looked at? Yeah.

[C]

So humans are really drawn to faces. Right. That's why this is a better format than on a phone. We get a lot of information from faces.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And almost nothing can draw our attention away from faces except an act of violence. What I was noticing is that, yes, people still paid attention to faces and acts of violence, but they were much more interested in the act itself, like the point of contact. If I showed someone, for example, a picture of you and I giving each other a high five.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

That's like a friendly point of contact versus you punching me in the face. Similar scenario. Not friendly. In the violent scenario where you're punching me in the face, people paid attention to your fist. And my face. Face is a bad example, but maybe arm or whatever.

[A]

Yeah. Yes.

[C]

The point of contact itself rather than our faces. Yeah.

[A]

But during a high five, they stay locked on the faces.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

They'll glance at the high five, but then they look at the faces more.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

And so it kind of draws. That was my first inkling that there's something about danger and viol that really just draws our attention, in this case, our visual attention. Yeah.

[A]

It makes us kind of myopic.

[C]

That's exactly right. And a lot of people, when they experience violence sort of secondhand, like when they see it, for example, they talk about it being frightening. And I started thinking, well, it is kind of weird that humans also expose themselves to things that scare them willingly. Horror movies or true crime or whatever it might be. Haunted houses, haunted hotels. And I thought, well, I wonder if that's related. And so I started looking into the literature, and no psychologists were researching this. Nobody that studied human behavior empirically was doing this work. And that seemed insane to me because it's something that is so common, again, not just in our culture, but in every culture that we have documented. I found one guy who was interested in this, and he was a literature scholar, and he studied horror literature, and he lived in Denmark.

[A]

That feels right, that he lived in Denmark.

[C]

That feels about right. Scandinavians. Yeah. So I reached out to him and I said, hey, you are the only person in the world I can find who is interested in this topic, and I'm interested in this. We should do something together. And he said, yeah, you should come to Denmark. I would love to do a study at this haunted house. Empirical studies aren't really my forte, but he had a good theoretical art idea for what might be going on. So we teamed up, and I skipped some important tests that I was supposed to take during my PhD and flew to Denmark for a month. And we did this incredible study at a haunted house. This first study was we wanted to know, how do people have fun when they are feeling afraid? So we strapped people with heart rate monitors, right? And we thought, okay, if we can measure what their hearts are doing, what our bodies are doing when they're having fun, maybe we can tease apart how they're having fun. And then we put up cameras throughout the haunt at different scary points to see what their faces were doing. Were they screaming? Were they laughing? Were they looking surprised? And what's cool about this one is, especially at the time this would have been in 2017, probably Halloween was still kind of fairly new in Denmark as a event. They knew what Halloween was, but they didn't really have haunted Attractions. If I wanted to go to a haunted attraction in LA right now, I could walk out the door and find a bunch of them.

[B]

Yes, absolutely.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

There's 1/3 of a mile away, Haunted Day ride.

[B]

And that Universal right down.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Of course, there's a huge one in Denmark. There weren't a lot of them. We had to drive an hour from the university just to find this one. And it was one of the first. It was so fun driving to this. So we drive about an hour from the university, pack our car full of all of our gear, we turn off on this road and it's just thick, dense forest on both sides. Just this really narrow road, like kind of a old road. We drive for probably a quarter to a half a mile into this forest and we come across a clearing and there's an old abandoned fishery there. And that's where they had made this haunted attraction. It was great.

[A]

Perfect low pass.

[C]

We were interested in how do people have fun when they're feeling afraid? And what does that look like? And so we measured their heart rates, we looked at their faces to see what they did during the scares. And after the scares, we interviewed them to have them talk about the experience. And did they think it was play or fun or were they too scared? Did it meet their expectations? And what we found is that people have kind of a sweet spot of fear where their fun is maximized. So if you imagine on your X axis here, you've got one to 10 for how scary something is.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And on your Y axis, you've got one to 10 for how fun it is. You get kind of a normal distribution. Right. But it's a bit skewed. It's gotta be a little bit scarier. So like a seven or a seven and a half out of ten, Not a five, not a five, not a ten. Which is interesting because if you look at marketing campaigns for horror movies or haunted attractions, they always try to say, this is the scariest thing you'll ever experience. And that's not necessarily what people want. It's not necessarily when they have the most fun or when they enjoy it the most.

[A]

I'd imagine it changes too, between film and real life participation. You have some degree of separation that maybe you can handle. 10. Yep.

[C]

But people still do regulate their fear and their anxiety, even in horror movies. Right. Sometimes you need it to be scarier. So what do you do? You turn down the lights, you really get immersed in it. Right. You imagine it could be real.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And then other times you need to dampen that. Right. You need to close your eyes or cover your eyes. Watch it with the lights on, watch it with a friend. Do things that make it less scary. So you're always trying to regulate a lot of the research I'm doing. I think that's a really magical type of play, because what you're doing is you are practicing regulating your anxiety and regulating your fear, which is something you can use later in the real world.

[A]

Like immersion therapy.

[C]

Exactly. Emotional exposure therapy.

[A]

Okay, so what you found was that people had a sweet spot. Their fun peaked when the scariness was beyond the halfway point, seven or so.

[C]

And that was their heart rate and their expectation of how they rated it.

[B]

How scary, how fun it was, and how scary.

[A]

Okay, you don't have the data for it, but did you attempt a biochemical explanation? Because adrenaline is, in the right context, very pleasurable. Like, was it adrenaline? What all was happening?

[C]

I've done a couple of studies at this haunted house.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And we tried answering that question a little later. We didn't use biochemical measures in part because this would have been 20, 21, and people were still a little weird about spitting in tubes. And that's usually how you measure things like cortisol. But what we did do is there was this idea for a long time that people like horror movies because the adrenaline, it's intuitive, makes sense, seems true, probably is true. But I thought, well, that doesn't really explain all of the horror fans. Just anecdotally. I was like, well, I know a lot of people who are just not adrenaline junkies, but they love horror. And so what I did is I. I collected 50 or 60 statements about why people like horror, and I showed them to hundreds of people. And I said, how much do you agree with these things? And I wanted to see which questions were answered similarly. And you can kind of group them into factors. And what I found was there were three factors that kind of emerged from that data. One of those factors was sort of an adrenaline junkie factor. People who scored high in that liked horror because they liked the way they feel when they're afraid. They like the rush.

[B]

But you don't. Right?

[A]

I don't get scared is my thing.

[B]

You are an adrenaline.

[A]

I'm an adrenaline junkie.

[C]

You need, like, a higher level.

[A]

That's not a source of adrenaline for me.

[C]

No, that's an excellent point. And that was part of the reason I didn't think that was true, because a lot of true adrenaline junkies don't get scared enough from horror films. So it wouldn't make sense to me that adrenaline is the main driver of horror interest. It is a driver for some people, but it didn't seem like it could be this answer for unifying explanation. Yes, exactly. And so what I found was that in addition to the adrenaline junkies, we also found people we called white knucklers. If you squeeze your fist real tight, you get kind of a white across your knuckles where the blood escapes. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

We called this group that because when they walked through the haunt, they were squeezing their fists really tight.

[A]

They like the fatigue. They're in it for the fatigue afterwards.

[C]

But we asked them, he said, how scary was it? And they were like, oh, it was so scary. And we're like, did you enjoy how scary it was? And they're like, not really. You know, I didn't really enjoy the feeling of fear. But what they enjoyed was the opportunity to challenge their fears.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

The accomplishment.

[C]

Exactly right. And they reported that they felt like they learned something about themselves. Either the limits of their fear or what they were good at dealing with or not good at dealing with. That was the second group. We thought the those two would pop up because we had some ideas from other research that suggested that, yeah, there's a group that likes the adrenaline and a group that doesn't seem to like it.

[A]

You know, when they do test screenings of films, they show it to 300 people. Then they keep behind 30 or 40 people in a focus group and they kind of ask them more detailed questions. I sat in on the test screening for this movie I was in called Zathura, and there were a lot of moms with kids at this screening and they were part of the test group. And the moms were regularly complaining that the movie was too scary. And then upon follow up question from the guy conducting it, he would say, well, which part was it that was too scary? And she would turn to her kid and the kid would always say, oh, I like that part where the Zorgon did blank. And the kids always said, I liked it. Yeah, the parents said it was too scary. They whatever screamed or whatever in the moment, but immediately you find out like, the kids liked that.

[C]

Yes, kids are spooky. I think a huge misunderstanding about kids is that they actually love spooky stuff. And parents know this intuitively. Right. If you ask them, what kind of games do your kids play when they're pretend playing with others? It's like a violent game where they're playing a predator prey chase game or there's monsters in the game and they're pretending to be monsters or there's a scary environment, the lights are off or they're playing under a blanket.

[B]

Is it gendered?

[C]

A little bit. I mean, boys are a little more likely to engage in that, but at really young ages, like 5 to 8. I'm not a developmental psychologist, but from what I've read and what I've seen, boys and girls both kind of like scary play. Going back to this white knuckler thing, there were a group of people who really were afraid, but they still liked horror. And so the question was, why? Because there are other people who are really afraid and they don't like it. That makes sense. That makes the most sense.

[A]

Yeah. The big question is, why does someone enjoy not liking it?

[B]

I think that's me. I do enjoy it, and I get really worked up and scared.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

This explains you to a T. And in fact, one of his exact examples is something you did, which I got a bang on overeating. Okay. So of the haunted stuff, you walked away with what, more questions or some conclusions?

[C]

A little of both. Which means it's good science, I think.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

But real quick. There was also a third group.

[B]

Oh, thank you.

[C]

There was a third group that we didn't expect. This one we called the Dark Copers, because they seem to be using scary experiences to deal with difficult emotions or difficult times they were going through in their life. So horror helped them kind of get over their anxiety or their depression or existential questions they had.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

In that it interrupted the pattern they were stuck in.

[C]

That's part of it. But also horror. Horror deals in those emotions. Right. Horror deals in anxiety. It deals in depression. It deals in threats and danger and awful things that happen. And I think it just helps to.

[B]

Play that out and you get through it. Like, knowing that you've gotten through it maybe feels relieving, of course.

[C]

And some of the biochemical explanations come into play there. It's like, I got through this. I didn't enjoy the fear necessarily, but, man, overcoming it sure feels good.

[A]

Yes. It gives you a bit of optimism or hope.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is. Oh, I might. Might also be on the other side of these other things.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so how do you take that work and then turn it into morbidly curious?

[C]

Yeah, well, we haven't talked about morbid curiosity that much.

[A]

Okay, tell me about. So that's just haunted houses.

[C]

Yeah. This is before I had really done much work on morbid curiosity. I was interested in fear and how we play with it. And that combined with interest in people's interest in Violence that I had. I kind of combined those next year or two after that and realized that there were a lot of overlap between them. There was a lot of commonalities between them. So I developed this concept of morbid curiosity. And of course, everyone has heard of this. I didn't come up with the term. Right. Everybody kind of knows what it is. Which made it all the more shocking that nobody had really done any research on this psychologically. There were a few studies in the 80s, but nobody had ever followed up on them. And some of the methods were a little outdated.

[A]

Well, you read ridiculous things all the time on Instagram. It's like people who like serial that.

[C]

Go to sleep and watch serial killer movies are psychopaths.

[A]

Psychopaths. There's all these declarations of like, if your partner likes. And I'm always like, how did we come to sleep?

[B]

This conclusion.

[C]

I don't think we did exactly. Engagement farming did.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So you broke up morbid curiosity into four domains.

[C]

Yeah, and I did that because that's what the data was telling me was there. So the way you develop scales like that, you give people lots of questions, kind of like I did with those three horror types, things that you think tap into this central concept or central theme, and then you see how they're answers similarly between people and those break out into groups. And so what I found is that, yeah, there seem to be four types of morbid curiosity. So one of those is the minds of dangerous people, which is an interest in understanding people who might be dangerous, but maybe don't signal that they're dangerous.

[A]

Right.

[C]

So true crime would be a great example of latching onto that type of morbid curiosity. There's violence, which is an interest in an act of violence. So this is kind of going back to that study I did where there was a violent action and people were homing in on the actual contact point.

[A]

UFC's are your best example for this.

[C]

That's a prime example. And then you have bodily injuries, which is kind of the outcome of violence or the outcome of a dangerous situation. Right. It could be an accident. It doesn't have to be an act of physical violence.

[A]

This is rubbernecking.

[C]

That's exactly right.

[A]

Yeah. You see a car accident, you're like, oh, fuck, I gotta look. Is there a head hanging out? I don't want to look. I gotta look.

[C]

That is what morbid curiosity is. It's this mixed emotional experience of, ah, man, I really kind of want to see it, but I hope it's not there. But if it is. I want to see it.

[A]

I'm repelled by it and drawn to it at the same time. It's like the polarities of a magnet all at once.

[B]

It is weird.

[C]

In the book, I give an example from Plato where he talks about. About this man who was walking on the city walls and this was written 2000 years ago. And he gives a perfect example of morbid curiosity in a different culture, in a different time. He doesn't call it that. I think Plato's looking at like our reason versus our emotions and that's how he's using this story. But when I read it, I thought, oh my God, this is morbid curiosity in ancient times. And so he tells the story of this man who's walking along the city walls and he sees the city executioner and he sees all of the criminals bodies who have been executed there. And he can't help but look. He doesn't want to look. He's telling himself, I don't want to look. And then he runs up to the edge, he says, he throws his eyes open, and there you wretches gaze upon your glory. Talking to his own eyes about it. His eyes want to see it, but his rational mind doesn't.

[A]

He's shame filled.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. But perfect example of that experience. It's not that you're hoping people are dead, and if they are, I kind of want to see it.

[A]

I'd also put fail videos into this category.

[C]

Exactly. Fail videos into the bodily injury.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is part of that because we like storytelling so much as humans, it's like almost this might be a story. Story.

[C]

Well, it is. It's a story of what not to do. Especially the fail videos. Horror doesn't tell you what to do in a dangerous situation. It tells you what not to do. Or it shows you what not to do. Right.

[A]

Shows you how.

[C]

Don't go in the basement, don't split up, don't go into the forest.

[A]

Don't start making out with a hot girl. A lot of people when there's a killer in the woods, it's no time to get frisky. But I think all of them, right, Monica, are your fears of things. So, like we're all afraid of bending our leg backwards. We're afraid of falling and hitting our head.

[C]

That's what happened to me is the fear.

[A]

It's a potential in the world we live in.

[B]

Yeah. We do a show where we talked to listeners and we just did one about the dentist. And Dax was like, we can't do that again.

He has Like a fear of his teeth falling out. And I don't. So that wasn't that hard.

[C]

That's like one of the most common nightmares, teeth falling out.

[A]

Yeah, but I would love to know. So yes, I know that is. But I would love to see data pre and post orthodontia because my theory is like my teeth are getting twisted and cranked for so long in my life that it may.

[B]

I also had braces for three years.

[A]

And you don't have that.

[B]

And I really don't have.

[C]

Well, it was probably good for humans in particular to be nervous about their teeth.

[A]

They're livelihood.

[B]

Yeah, it's true.

[C]

Before 100 years ago, people's teeth weren't in great shape. When you pull up our ancestors bones, teeth are strong and they last a long time. But when you pull them up, man, they look a little rough.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're using them as tools back then instead of hands.

[C]

So yes, your teeth falling out should be afraid of that. That's normal.

[A]

Yeah, that's true.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare. Thanks again to our presenting sponsor, Audible for their support. So Audible just dropped their best of 2025 collection. And I gotta say, this is one of those things that actually makes your life easier. Monica. Their editors have been doing the heavy lifting. We're talking countless hours of listening, heated debates, and the whole thing. They've handpicked the year's top audiobooks, podcasts and originals across all your favorite genres. And what I love is that they're not just highlighting the giant releases, though those are in there. They've also dug up some real hidden gems, the stuff that might have flown under the radar, but totally deserves your attention. I love a good recommendation. My cue is out of control, so anytime there's a curated list like this, I breathe a little easier. Two titles I'm excited about. Sunrise on the Reaping. Anything Hunger Games related is an automatic ad for me and Someday now, which everyone says is incredibly warm and reflective. If you want something solid to close out the year, this is a great place to start. Check out Audible's best of 2025 and discover why there's more to imag when you listen, go to audible.com bestof2025 we are supported by JCPenney.

[B]

Okay, so I just ordered these king size pillows from JCPenney which were so hard to find. I was looking at a lot of places and JCPenney had them and when they arrived I was like, wait, these feel really lux and expensive. Way more than what I paid.

[A]

Well, that's the thing about JCPenney right now, they're a one stop shop for incredible gifts. You can grab something, something last minute. Like even on December 22nd and it still looks like you've been planning for months. You know, I just bought a bunch of stockings for Nashville from JCPenney and an adorable Christmassy placemat with a fire engine on it and some nutcrackery. Guys, creatures. There's like all kinds of fun Christmas stuff.

[B]

Oh, I love that.

[A]

Whether it's beauty sets, home decor, jewelry, or fashion for the whole family, everything has that elevated I definitely splurged vibe.

[B]

Even when you didn't, it's what they thought that cat.

[A]

And honestly, nobody needs to know you grabbed it at the 11th hour shop. JCP.com yes, JCPenney. We are supported by Audible. You know, I spend a lot of time listening. It's literally my job. But when I'm not recording the show, I'm constantly consuming audio content. And honestly, I can get pretty overwhelmed by all the choices out there. That's why I love when Audible drops their Best of the Year collection. Audible's most anticipated collection, the best of 2025, is here. And let me tell you, these editors know what they're doing. They've spent countless hours listening, having heated debates. Probably way more heated than Monica and I get, although that's hard to imagine. And they have handpicked this year's must listens. What I really appreciate is that they don't just go for the obvious picks. They found hidden gems alongside the buzziest new releases. Whether you're into true crime like Monica, historical biographies like me, or something completely different, this collection has your back. I've already started diving into their selection, and honestly, it's like having a really smart friend curate your entire listening experience. Want to finish the year with a sure thing? Check out Audible's Best of 2025 and discover why there's more to imagine when you listen. Listen now. Go to audible.com best of the year we are supported by Quints. So I'm standing in my closet the other day and I realize I'm reaching for the same three things over and over again. And they're all coming from quints. Which got me thinking, when did I become that guy who cares about where his clothes come from? I'll tell you when. When I discovered Quince.

[B]

Exactly. I was at a happy hour a couple days ago with a very cool woman named Margot. Very chic. And I was like, ooh, I love your pants. I love Your sweater. And she said, quince, Boom. And I was like, I should have known.

[A]

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Okay, so physical violence.

[C]

Yeah. Minds of dangerous people. Violence and bodily injuries. And those kind of run from pre event to the event to post event. Right. That's kind of like a spectrum there of what could happen in a dangerous situation. And then there's the fourth one. And it took me a while to disentangle what this really meant and what it was. The fourth one. I called it paranormal danger to try to encompass a broad range of things. And let me give you some examples of it and then tell you what I think it is, is examples would be anything to do with ghosts or aliens or even deities, ancestors, spirits. I think what's going on there is people have historically used agentic beings that they can't see to explain misfortunate events. There's a long recorded history of that. There's a lot of good anthropological work on that. Witches in particular. And so I think what's happening is that's tapping into dangers that we don't understand. We tend to give those agentic beings. Right. We tend to say, oh, well, the ghost made that knock in my house or the witch cursed me. Right.

[A]

Like you say, there's like a trillion variables out there.

[C]

Exactly. And it's culturally independent.

[A]

It feels at least comforting to narrow it to this somewhat agreed upon.

[C]

Because how else are you going to take an action against it? Right. If you don't have a thing that you can take an action against, you feel helpless.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

That's a terrible feeling. It's better to guess. In human life, almost everything that happens to us happens to us because someone else did something. Most of the things that happen to us or because we live in communities and for most of our History lived in small, tight knit communities. The good things and the bad things that happen to us often involved other people. So it makes sense that we would have this bias to kind of think that if a misfortunate thing happened to me, maybe someone else did it.

[A]

Anthropomorphize it a bit.

[C]

Yes. And maybe they're really powerful because I didn't see them do it.

[A]

You point out, which I like, is that everyone that has these beliefs or thoughts or curiosities about aliens and ghosts, it's generally negative. It should be just as likely that the aliens arrive and go, hey, here's how you fix global warming and here's unlimited energy. Have fun. They're benevolent and nice.

[C]

Yeah. And the ghosts are telling you, hey, that stairwell, it's not very safe.

[A]

Don't walk down.

[C]

It needs to be fixed.

[A]

That's what took me out. I don't want to see it happen again.

[C]

Casper is the exception and not a.

[A]

Huge hit because of it.

[C]

Ghostbusters is a much more likely scenario.

[A]

I think it really illuminates what purpose those things serve simply by the fact that they're almost never positive.

[C]

Yeah, we use that as a way to just try to explain it and then get a grasp on it. So, okay, here's something that it could be. Now what can I do about that? That's how we develop rituals around these things and all sorts of crazy beliefs.

[A]

Okay, so those are the broad strokes of the four categories. Right? So let's talk about minds of the dangerous people, because I think this is the phenomena that you see most covered. We have a very robust true crime podcast space. Docuseries. Yeah, docu series space. What else would we include in this category?

[C]

Conspiracy theories. Oh, I mean, that's what a conspiracy is. Is someone plotting to haunt True crime and conspiracies would be the two major media examples.

[A]

So anecdotally, from my perspective, this is very gendered.

[C]

Yes, there's the data, back that up. So true crime, in particular, women tend to not only seek it out more, but enjoy it more and enjoy specific scenes sometimes more than men.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I'm sorry, there's one thing I wanted you to set up before we go through these categories, which is just break down what human modeling is, this gift of human modeling and how we differ from other animals.

[C]

So one of the questions I get a lot is, are humans the only morbid, curious creatures? Right. Are we the only ones that are like that? Is that a unique human trait? And the answer is yes and no. No, we're not the only creatures that are morbidly curious, but yes, we have a very unique flavor of it. So one of the best examples of morbid curiosity in animals would be predator inspection. So prey animals, let's say a gazelle or a zebra, these are really pretty easy examples for people to imagine. If you're a zebra or gazelle and you're on the savannah, you're having your brunch, and in the case of a zebra, a lion walks up, or a gazelle, a cheetah walks up, walks up, what do you do? I'm imagining if I'm a zebra, I'm going to run away. I don't want to hang out if there's a lion nearby. Right. The problem with that is, do either of you have cats at home?

[B]

No.

[A]

No, But I've witnessed a lot of cats.

[C]

You've witnessed a lot of cats. You probably know that cats just sleep most of the time.

[A]

Yeah, 22 hours a day.

[C]

22. And that's true of most cats, including big cats. And so if you run every time that you see a lion, you're going to exhaust caloric resources, you're going to waste time that could have been used towards grazing and actually building those caloric reserves to run when you need to run. That's exactly what a lion wants you to do, is run all the time, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And the lion has to only hunt when it's hungry. Because you've seen the Lion King, Right. What happens if you hunt something like hyenas are going to come in and try to take it. Lots of other hungry animals are going to come in and try to take that. If you don't eat it right away, and then it's going to spoil, or vultures are going to come in, scavengers will come in. So lions and other predators are incentivized to pretty much only hunt when they're hungry. Which means prey animals are incentivized to understand when their predators are hunting and when they're hungry, what their motivational states are. And what you find is, is that many prey animals will engage in predator inspection and in particular, those that are adolescents or sub adults. So they're young and healthy, but don't have a lot of personal experience with a predator. So they have the most benefit and they're at the lowest risk because they're healthy and probably able to get away. And of course, environmental factors influence it. So is the grass really tall or really short? Because if it's really tall, you might get ambushed. If it's really Short and maybe you're further away, you feel a little safer. Right. Kind of like we feel when we watch a TV show that's all great and fine. And predator inspection is pretty commonly observed in many different animals. One of the explanations for it is that pre animals can learn about their predators that way.

[A]

And you said they'll also observe another member of their species, get hunted if they have the opportunity, because they want to see how that plays out, that makes sense and learn from that.

[C]

All of life is one big learning experience and you got to take the opportunities you get. And when it comes to dangerous things, in most of nature, there's a lot of danger around, but not a lot of good opportunities to learn about it. Because it's typically dangerous for you to witness something. Yeah.

[A]

You learn about it while you're getting.

[C]

Chased and that's not a good time. You're going to have really accurate information. But it comes at a pretty high risk, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Fast forward to humans. We have language, transmissible culture, we tell stories. What does that allow us to do? Well, it allows us to retain almost all of the learning benefit of a situation, but remove virtually all the cost. And we can envision future scenarios that we've never encountered or maybe variations of a scenario. What if this happened in the woods versus the savannah versus the lake? And so stories allow us to very, very cheaply simulate potential situations, in many cases, potentially dangerous situations that might happen to us at some point. Maybe we heard about a story and then we tell a fictional version of it to amp that up a little bit. It was a wolf. Well, what if the wolf was larger and hairier and it was a werewolf? And so we do these super stimuli where we make them bigger and scary and more memorable, and we still gain the learning benefits from that.

[A]

So because we have this ability to. To create an imaginary scenario, we can kind of practice within it and we feel a little safer. It's comforting. Right?

[C]

Right.

[A]

So given that that's how our brains work naturally, if someone produces the content for us or we have actual footage, we're going to be drawn to that because it's better than even the other thing that's been working.

[C]

And we're incentivized to create that content as humans too, because it's good for you to pass on dangerous information to people. Again, historically, that would have been people you live next to, your family, your friends, your trading partners. And so there's a bit of an incentive to kind of tell these stories. There's also some evidence that you get a Bit of a status boost, I was gonna say.

[A]

It's like cultural capital as well.

[C]

Yes. Because you're an important person. Right. Because you've experienced this or you have this secret knowledge and you've survived a.

[A]

Thing I'm afraid of, or you know.

[C]

About it at least. Maybe you just have some special knowledge that you were given by someone else who survived it or whatever that might be.

[A]

Yes. So if we look at the broad of who is raped and murdered in this country, it's very lopsidedly female.

[C]

Very lopsided, yeah. Murdered, probably not. But they're very different types of people who murder you. If you're a man versus a woman. If you're a woman, it's usually someone you know very well or someone you are trying to get to know. Well, it's much more likely that a man is murdered by a stranger.

[B]

And in general, mostly women and men are murdered by men.

[C]

Yes. Men murder almost everybody. Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For the people that are drawn to true crime and they're really exploring dangerous people and then there's like details within there. You already hinted at a couple. One of the specific fascinations, and they all seem to have a very similar arc, is they're after the why or what did the person not notice about the attacker that they should have. That's what they're after. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. That's the juice. Humans face a really unique problem when it comes to dangerous social members. So lots of social creatures have. Have dangerous conspecifics is what you would call them. So a chimp, for example. There's going to be an alpha chimp who's a jerk who's going to beat up on you if you try to take the fruit that he wants or the mate that he wants or the space that he wants. But that alpha chimp is going to be reactively aggressive. He's going to tell you, don't take that in his own way, with his fangs and yelling. He's going to tell you in his own way. You should probably not take that or else I'm going to attack you and I'm probably going to win.

[A]

Right. You'll get a warning.

[C]

Yeah. The gorilla will stand up and beat his chest. Hugh. Humans, our ancestors almost certainly did something like that. Right. We descended from a common ancestor with chimps. We almost certainly did something like that. But there was a shift. I don't know if you've read any of Richard Wrangham's work.

[A]

No.

[C]

You would love it. Richard Wrangham, he's a biological anthropologist. At Harvard. He's done a lot of work on human violence. Two books on violence. You really like?

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Juicy.

[C]

He's great. His work is where I got this idea from. He talks about this shift in human evolution where once we developed language, we could not now conspire with each other to overthrow a much stronger dominant jerk who is domineering the group. Right. If you don't have favor among your group, then they can work together.

[A]

No matter how tough you are, three other members can kill you.

[B]

No one can have full power.

[C]

Exactly. And that shifted the social dynamics of humans a lot. And it did another thing. So Wrangam says we domesticated ourselves basically through that process. We got rid of our reactive tendencies to a degree. Humans are still reactively aggressive, particularly males. Bar fights exist, but they exist far less than if we were chimps. We would not be able to sit in this room together having never met.

[A]

Something would have happened.

[C]

Something would have happened, yeah.

[A]

You would have made some move I misinterpreted.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It would have been a tense situation. Not a fun situation for anybody.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So humans are much less reactively aggressive than most other animals and certainly most other social primates. But we developed a new kind of aggression. We developed what's called proactive aggression. So now we can sit back and we can plot and think about when we're going to attack someone and how we can do it when they are unprepared. We make that distinction in our criminal justice system. So if you kill someone out of a crime of passion, right. You come home and you find your wife in bed with someone else, your brother, your brother especially.

You'Re going to commit a crime of passion, right. And you're going to get punished for that. You'll go to jail. Depending on the state and in circumstances, let's say 10 to 40 years, 10.

[A]

To 30, you'll walk in Kentucky pride.

[C]

Of honor culture.

In the Southern honor cultures you might want. But if you decide that you don't like your wife anymore and you're just gonna kill her and you plot that now, it would be first degree murder and you can be put to death in certain states. And we reserve that for premeditated aggression. We intuitively recognize that this premeditated aggression is a problem, and we punish it more harshly because we recognize it's a problem. And so for millions of years, primates basically signal to you, I'm reactively aggressive. Don't mess with me. And then it was like overnight when we had language. Now, now we have people who can plot, and they're not showing us that they are aggressive. That's why you get the. I could never imagine that he would have done this with Dahmer and Bundy and all these charismatic serial killers. And that makes us really curious about them. Because the only way to learn how you might avoid those people and who they are and how to find out if they're truly dangerous is to hear a story about something that's already happened, where they did it.

[A]

I mean, we could get into whether or not this is a fool's errand.

[C]

It be. Could.

[A]

Could be, because I don't know that there is the thing.

[C]

There's probably not the thing.

[B]

Well, there's not the thing, but there are patterns.

[A]

There's some things that you can have as red flags. But I mean, look, I've old enough to have known people have gone to jail for heinous things. And I'm like, I don't know. I didn't know.

[B]

Sure.

[C]

And you can go too far. A lot of my work counters a lot of myths that people have about morbid curiosity. One of those is that it could lead you to be violent or all the these things. None of that has panned out. But there are some negative side effects. If you only consume true crime at the expense of everything else, and you sit inside your room all day and you don't go outside and touch the grass and go to the supermarket, that's.

[A]

The thing that seems like it's on the table minimally, is you could have a misled belief of the likelihood of this happening to you.

[C]

The counter to that is just to consume other media with it. Go out into the real world, go to the supermarket. It's an easy fix, right? It's easy to avoid some of those downsides and the downsides that. That have historically been associated with being a horror fan or being morbidly curious don't seem to pan out. It doesn't have anything to do with a lot of bad things in human life.

[A]

As I was reading this, I was like, oh, I've picked up some of these things I know now, which I wouldn't have known. You don't ever go to a second location. Like whatever gnarly things happening to you on the sidewalk and they want to put you in a car. It's better to have it out on the sidewalk than to go to a second location. Right? I don't know that because I've been in that situation. I know that from this type of.

[C]

Media, as you mentioned, you learn things throughout Your life and interest in things like horror and true crime do decline with age, which makes sense, because if you were learning something about it, then you should feel a little less interested, a little less curious about it. Now. You might find other reasons to enjoy it, maybe because your friends still like it, maybe because you built a community around the horror genre. There are a lot of other reasons why you might still enjoy horror, but that curiosity that drives you from the beginning might have shifted a little bit.

[A]

This blew my mind. There's two reviews you cite in the book. One is when Saw came out and it became this huge. You know, that franchise made, like, a billion dollars.

[B]

I saw it in over a billion dollars.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

A film critic called anyone that would watch it a depraved lunatic. But that's not even the craziest one.

[B]

I watched it.

[A]

Remember Siskel and Ebert? Gene Siskel, he saw Friday the 13th, and he hated it so much that in his review, he both gave away the ending so no one would go through see it. And then he docks the Paramount chairman.

[C]

Charles Bloodhorn, and tried to dox what was her name. Yeah.

[A]

And said, like, send these people hate mail. Yes. Yeah. Why, isn't that bonkers?

[C]

So when I first started looking into this, I was looking for what scientists had to say about the psychology of people who like slashers. And what I kept coming across were what film critics had to say. I think it's a film critic's job to hate certain movies, but it's not their job to say something about the psychology of people who like those movies. That's a very different kind of territory. It made me realize that people have these intuitions, and I kind of understand it. Like, oh, you like movies where there's a lot of suffering and people are getting hacked up? I kind of understand the intuition that there might be something wrong with you. I can sympathize with that. But the data doesn't bear it out. Right.

[B]

It doesn't tell. It's not accurate.

[C]

It's not accurate.

[A]

Yeah. Okay, let's get into physical violence. Every single boy who went through school had a very plausible threat of getting beat up by another boy. Sure. And so the fact that the UFC is huge, I do think a lot of people judgmentally look at that and go, it's so barbaric. And the people who like it are so toxic, masculine. I'm like, no, these are guys who went to bars and were afraid another guy was going to beat the shit out of them. And it's a very living fear to be beat. By another man.

[C]

Yeah. And so watching two people who are some of the best in the world do it, you can learn a lot.

[A]

You can learn a lot and then get into, like, there are parameters. We like a little bit of parameters.

[C]

Yeah. Even the UFC has rules. Right. It's the most unbarred fighting, but there are still certain rul.

[A]

And there's someone there to break it up if someone's about to be killed. And that's what. Maybe someone might enjoy ufc, but they might not like watching a bar fight on the street or.

[C]

It's a different kind of attention. Right. The bar fight on the street might be like, I can't look away, but I don't really want to see it. Whereas the UFC is. I'll pay money to see it. People hate unfair fights. It's also why there's weight classes in the ufc. If we really wanted to be unrestricted early ufc, it was bananas. Right.

[A]

And why it was so great is to see little guys beat the shit.

[C]

Out of huge guys. Yeah. Which violates your expectations, makes it more interesting. Okay, well, if he can do it, what is he doing? Right. I think most sports. Sports have an element. I mean, American football is the classic example. Right. As a violent sport. Now, we try to buffer that with padding and helmets, and we try to have people really get injured. But the basic premise of football is to knock other people down, slam your.

[B]

Bodies into each other, exert your will.

[A]

Physically over your opponent.

[C]

Yes, yes, exactly. Yes. You know, you hear it a lot, especially now, complaints that sports are getting too soft. Basketball maybe is not as rough and tough as it was 20 years ago. They don't fight as much in hockey. You see it in a lot of sports, and when it starts to go away, you see.

[A]

Hear about it, people don't like it. What about bodily injury and gore?

[C]

It's interesting, and it's really broad, I think, because it's really about a couple of things. It's about learning the limits of the human body. So, like, well, what happens if a bone pokes through my skin? What do I do? What does that look like? How do you not die in that situation? And what can cause that? Because I can't practice on myself, like, how much force does it take to break my bone? But if I see somebody do something that doesn't look like it's a lot of force and then the bottom bone breaks, I should be a little more careful in those situations, right?

[A]

Yes. Would we put pandemic in this category?

[C]

Parts of it can be. For example, there Was a big ebola scare a few years ago. It was interesting because ebola's not that contagious, Unlikely to become what Covid was. But, man, is it scary. And it's scary. And only in its extreme forms, you get something that looks like a person who's been attacked by a monster, bleeding out of the eyes. And these are very rare instances even of ebola, which is a pretty rare disease. Right. But those are. Are memorable. And so you really don't want to get it. Even if ebola had a lower death rate, it would still be much more frightening because of that. Because bodily injuries, what they do in most cases is they index violence really well. So if I'm walking through the woods and I come across the body, and the body's got kind of a cut on its neck right here. Right. A small cut, I'm going to be a little worried, but I'm not going to freak out now if I'm walking in the forest and I see someone missing their head. Yeah, I'm going to freak out. Right?

[A]

Yeah. We got big problems.

[C]

But why? I think that's an interesting, interesting thing. Why do we freak out?

[A]

Nature couldn't have done that, right?

[B]

It wasn't an accident.

[C]

It wasn't an accident. And not only that, it takes a lot of force to pull someone's head off or cut it off. Right. Whatever did that was probably agentic, probably very strong, probably still close by, very angry, very aggressive. So it gives cues to the thing didn't eat it.

[A]

It's doing it for fun.

[C]

Is it hungry?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Is this just for fun?

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[C]

We make interpretations about the thing that caused the impact injury. And so bodily injuries track really well. It index really well with danger.

[A]

What data do you have on contagion? Ding, ding, ding.

[B]

Oh, I love it. Great movie.

[C]

How many times did you love it before 2020?

[B]

It was the first time. I watched it for the first time during COVID and then I watched it, like every day.

[C]

How did you find it? How did you know to find it? Because it came out in 2011.

[B]

Yeah. Maybe it just popped up on my Netflix. Yeah, I guess.

[C]

I don't know.

[B]

I think I looked it up.

[C]

I think you looked it up because I think contagion was only available available on apple TV or some at the time, obscure platform to rent or buy.

[B]

So maybe I looked up what are pandemic movies?

[A]

How many times you watched it? Dozens of times.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Every day we get to work, and I'd be like, what'd you do last night? I watched Contagion again, and I'm talking. That was five minutes a week.

[B]

It's a great movie.

[C]

I don't think that could be great. There are a lot of great movies.

[B]

My boyfriend in it.

[A]

Yeah. A Few Good Men.

[B]

I know. I mean, of course, it was of the moment.

[C]

Don't we watch movies to escape the world? Why would you escape into a world that was basically the world you were living Horrors.

[B]

We were also to double up on that. I had just had a seizure.

[C]

Oh.

[B]

A week before shut down. And that movie starts with a seizure.

[C]

Yes, it does.

[B]

So there's two things happening that really.

[C]

I have to watch this every night.

[B]

And I remember I said. Because the first time I watched, I was with Kristen, who was there for my seizure. So we were watching it, and I was like, did it look like that I, like, needed information that I didn't even.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, the good news is I don't know about watching it, like, 12 times. But you were not alone on watching it for the first time. If you look at Google Trends data and you map the film Contagion, you see a little bump in 2011 when it came out, and then it's fairly flat. And then In March of 2020, it shot to the highest point that it had ever been on Google Trends. And what's interesting is if superimpose searches for Covid on that or Coronavirus on that, you see the same bump in March of 2020.

[A]

Perfect correlation.

[C]

That blew me away when I saw that, because I knew that Contagion was popular and it was spiking in popularity. And I, of course, was like, well, I think I know why. But I never expected it to be this. Just perfect superimposition.

[B]

Yeah. You want to know if they get through it, because we were in it. It was the very beginning. It wasn't like it was the end. Tell us what happens.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

It went From, I think, 200 and something on the Warner Brothers catalog to number two, despite not being on Netflix, which is the most popular platform. Right?

[B]

Yeah, I must.

[A]

Have. You rented it every time you couldn't yourself.

[C]

This is gonna be the last time.

[A]

There's no way I'm watching it again. I've already rented it.

[C]

You get the bill from Apple. It's like $200, and it's just Contagion.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Okay, now, paranormal I want to talk about because you went to Savannah, which people consider Savannah the most haunted city in America. Yeah. Monica spent a lot of time in Savannah.

[B]

My mom's from Savannah. It's A wonderful city, and I spent a lot of summers there.

[A]

Walk us through how it earned that title because there's a bunch of fascinating historical stuff.

[C]

Savannah is an old city, so Americans automatically think it's haunted because it's more than like 50 years old.

[A]

More people have died there over more time.

[C]

Yes. Way more graveyards than a city at size should. Right. Most of them are buried under the foundations of homes now. It had a couple of really nasty yellow fever outbreaks. It was obviously the site of a lot of battles. Half of the squares there like, well, this battle took place in the civil War or this war or that war.

[A]

It's slavery.

[C]

There. There was a huge slave port. I mean, there's just a lot of dark stuff that happened in Savannah. I went to what's called the sorrel weed house, which is this beautiful mansion on one of the squares, and it's famous for being haunted. And I went on a ghost hunt there. And overnight when it was, I think, like 10pm to 2am or something like that. I don't believe in ghosts, but I love ghost hunts. I think they're so much fun. I've seen things I can't explain.

[B]

Ooh, yeah.

[A]

Talk about the cat toys.

[C]

Yes. Okay.

[B]

I'm scared already.

[A]

Yeah. This is going to get you. Oh, no.

[D]

Really?

[C]

The cat toys actually happened in Eureka Springs, where I live.

[A]

Oh, geez. I'm sorry. I've conflated.

[C]

We can talk about that, and then we'll go to Savannah. Okay, great. So Eureka Springs, where I live, there's a famous haunted hotel there, the Crescent Hotel. I live a quarter of a mile from the Crescent. And before I moved to Eureka, I. I went on a ghost hunt there. An overnight ghost hunt. One of the things we did is I was with a group of maybe three or four other paranormal investigators, and some of them were like, professional ghost hunters. And they brought these two little clear balls that had a red button on top. And I thought, what kind of sneaky, cool ghost gadget is this? And they're like, no, we bought these at Dollar General. These are cat toys.

[B]

Oh.

[C]

Immediately, as a scientist, I was like, okay, I'm interested, because this is not something you created. It's not something that you can mess. It's just a super simple $1.

[A]

Now, did you see him pull them out of the Pac? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

It was like a fresh out of the package.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they pulled them out. You push the little red button on top, and that's what turns it on in the case Of a cat. When a cat hits it, it lights up. Right. Fun toy. So we turn these two balls on, we put them on the bed in this room. And then we kind of shook the bed to see how much does it take to really set these off. And you kind of had to really shake the bed, like put a lot of pressure on it. And then we step back against the wall. We kind of stomped our feet to see if that would set them off and it didn't. So they were pretty secure there on a big plush down. One of the investigators said, okay, we've heard that this room has a spirit living in it. It's called Michael's room.

[B]

Ew.

[C]

And the story is this Irish stonemason, he was working on the crescent and he was kind of a ladies man. He liked to flirt with women as they walked by. He like leaned over to whistle at a woman and fell.

[A]

Oh, he got his just reward.

[C]

Right on a beam that was in that room.

[B]

Okay, that's a bad way to go.

[C]

It's a bad way to go.

[A]

And then he died doing what he loved.

[C]

I mean.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Cat calling women.

[C]

So that's the story of why this room is supposedly haunted and very active. Cuz he's still kind of a poltergeist. He still likes to kind of mess with people.

[A]

He's a pervasive.

[C]

Yeah. And supposedly women get more experiences in that room.

[A]

I bet they do.

[C]

You know, it's a whole thing. So we're in this room, they put the cat balls in the bed, turn them on, and they say, okay, we've heard this room has a spirit living in it. We'd like to ask you if you few questions. There are two balls here. The left one we'll use for yes, the right one we'll use for no. And if you'll just light them up to let us know your answer to our questions. And then this person said, we've heard that there's the spirit of a man named Michael in this room. If that's true, would you please light up the yes ball? And then there was like one beat and the yes ball lit up. It gave me chills, hair on the back of my neck, the whole thing. And I couldn't explain it because again, I went in with my science mind. I was like, okay, let's test. What does it take to set this. This off? This is a very simple toy. It's not a fancy gadget you created that you can control in some other way. We did all the control testing we could and nothing else. Happened that night. We were there for hours. Nothing else happened. But the first thing we did happened, and it was unexplainable.

[B]

So there were more questions than nothing.

[C]

Nothing. Nothing lit up. We tried other g. Nothing really happened.

[A]

You guys weren't hot enough.

[C]

We weren't.

[A]

You weren't sexy enough.

[C]

Yeah, there weren't enough women in the group.

[A]

Go get some broads. I'll make this whole room light up.

[B]

Ghosts are so weird. Because if you ask me. Do you believe in ghosts? No, I don't. But I am scared of them. Yeah, it's weird.

[A]

The one I love is I had a professor at UCLA and she did her work in sub Saharan Africa and her work was on spells and witchcraft.

[C]

That's so cool.

[A]

And she got a spell put on her while she was there. Now she does not believe in them. And she got insanely sick and she saw the doctor and then went to the bigger city to see a doctor.

[C]

It's a spell.

[A]

Ultimately, she got sent to a tent and a shaman lady removed the spell and she was fine. And she's like, I don't know what to tell you. I'm back in la. I don't believe in ghosts. But I absolutely had this experience. And my friends, that's the power of culture. I cannot believe in it and be there and get it.

[C]

I talk about a study in the book. It's one of the few studies where I was like, I wish I had thought of that study. And the short of it was that, imagine you get a hundred people. Let's say half of them believe in ghosts and half don't. Then you mix them together and you split those into two groups. You got 25 and 25. Right. So 50 people, 25 believe in ghosts, 25 don't. And then another group, the same thing. Now in group A, you tell them when they come into the lab to do this study, hey, just so you know, we need to sign this form to let you know that someone died recently in this room. If people were told that there was the possibility of a ghost being in the room, they reacted to strange events during their lab experience in the same way. It didn't matter if they believed in ghosts or not. Their body kind of lit up in the same way.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

If they.

[C]

If there was a. That there might be a ghost in.

[A]

The room as opposed to if the experiment started and you said, hey, just warning. There was a shoddy electrician that did all the wiring.

[C]

Yeah, that's why the lights flickering is.

[A]

Getting fixed in a couple weeks. Yeah, you Would think nothing of it.

[C]

Yeah, they just didn't say anything in the control condition. Right. There was no story of a ghost. So the manipulation was a light went off for seven seconds and came back on in the middle of one of their tasks. And it was dark and quiet in the room. They were supposed to be meditating.

[A]

You would hate that.

[C]

And if you're just in there, you're like, okay, well, I guess the electrician didn't install us light correctly. But if you're told we have to sign this death on the premise form, one of the grad students says he saw a ghost, then you're like, oh, why did that light go off? Right.

[B]

So much.

[C]

And even if your conscious mind is like, I don't believe in ghosts.

[A]

Right.

[C]

You still. Your body feels the same way.

[A]

The amygdala takes over.

[C]

It does.

[A]

I'm nervous like that. We believe in ghosts.

[C]

Gnarly around here. You have to believe in ghosts.

[A]

We have to take this threat seriously.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

This show is sponsored by Better Help. The holidays are all about traditions, right? Some we inherit, others we create ourselves. And honestly, I've been thinking about what new traditions might actually serve us. Here's one I didn't see coming. Therapy as a holiday tradition. I know, I know, but hear me out. December can be intense. Family dynamics. Year end pressure. All the reflection on what went right or wrong. What if instead of just surviving the season, we used it to actually understand ourselves better? Better. We have talked numerous times about how the holiday season can be a activating event. Yeah, you're with your family.

[B]

Exactly. Family dynamics. Also pressure. Moms have pressure. Dads have pressure for these children presents. I have pressure for my gift guide.

[A]

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[A]

Okay, so Savannah, though.

[C]

Savannah Sorrel Weed house. Famously haunted. Went on a ghost hunt. There I was in the basement of the Sorrel Weed house, and it's very dark in the basement. And there were a few things that happened. Like I felt something brush my leg and I talk about how if I would have been on a historical tour of this house in the middle of the day and I felt so I would have been like, oh, it's a cobweb or whatever. But of course, because I was there, my expectations is that it's supposed to be haunted, even if I don't believe in ghosts. And so it kind of gave me chills in a way that it wouldn't have. And then over in the corner of the basement, running along one of the walls, the big house, there are some posts. It kind of makes a hallway on that side. And there's a little old wooden chair in the corner looking down the hallway. Supposedly people see the ghost of an old soldier, a Civil War soldier soldier. And he's angry. He's like a big, tall, angry soldier. You know, he's always in some kind of uniform. He's got. So I was like, well, ghosts don't exist. I'll go sit in the chair and see what I see.

[B]

Right, Sit.

[A]

Okay, great.

[C]

Yeah, you have to sit in the chair and you like look down the hallway. Right? So I sit down in the chair and I'm looking down. It's probably like a 25 foot hallway. It's a pretty long hallway and it's dark. You know, all the other people are on the other side of the room. And I know that they're not in the hallway because there's a bit of a wall there. And I sat there for 20 or 30 seconds just looking, kind of sitting quietly. And then you start to kind of see things. What was that? Right. And then you start to see like a little face and you start to kind of. My explanation would be, well, I was hallucinating it in any case. My body didn't care. It reacted the same way. And so even though I was sitting there telling myself, I know there's not an angry soldier. Yeah, right, right, right.

[B]

But do you know?

[C]

But that's the point. Do I really know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, this is when you get into. I bring this up a lot. There's a logical truth and there's an emotional truth. And those things sometimes are overlapped and quite often they're just not. And we want to say the emotional ones. Irrelevant, but it's not irrelevant.

[C]

And sometimes it's right.

[A]

It's probably governing more of our decisions than the logical side.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And probably making more correct decisions sometimes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This is a question that we honestly do not have an answer to.

[A]

What part?

[B]

Afterlife.

[C]

Oh, right. We all know.

[B]

We really do not know. It's unknowable. So that's where our beliefs can really get very muddy. I think you can easily be like, well, I guess I was wrong about that.

[C]

You see enough of these and you're like, okay, maybe I need to shift my worldview a little bit. Right.

[A]

Tell me about the Mor Curiosity Scale. How does it work?

[C]

I created this scale because if you study humans, the easiest way to measure a personality trait of some kind or an individual difference is to have a scale, one that's validated against behavioral tasks. And you're pretty sure it measures a real thing that you think it's measuring. So, of course, because nobody had really done any work on morbid curiosity, there was no scale. So that was one of the first things I did, was try to create this scale. It's 24 questions.

[A]

Can people go online and take this?

[C]

Yes. On my website.

[A]

What did I say? The website name?

[C]

Colton. Scrivener.com. and then there's a Morbid curiosity scale. You can download it if you want to use it in your research or if you just want to see how you score and how you compare to the average of the studies that I've done, at least, yeah, you can go take it, and it'll tell you your overall score and how that compares to the average, but then also the breakdown of each of those domains that we talked about.

[A]

Oh, nice, nice, nice. Okay, let's talk about dreams for a second.

[C]

Sure. I've never studied dreams. And when I wrote the first draft of the book manuscript, I didn't have a chapter on dreams. It was two paragraphs. In one of the other chapters, maybe eight or nine, I was seeing these connections with nightmares. And I was like, this is interesting. I need to mention it. And I mentioned it briefly. And then my editor came back and was like, you need to say more about this. This is really interesting. And I was like, okay. So I dug more into dream research, and I was like, okay. Camille was right again. She knows more about how to write this book than I do. So I ended up writing a whole chapter on dreams. And the idea is that there's this great theory about, why does dreaming exist in the first place, why do we have the machinery for it? How did we develop the machinery to hallucinate a full experience? And we hallucinate it not just cognitively, but emotionally. Our bodies would move if there was not an off switch that's triggered. Right. You can snip that connection in other animals. And you can see they get up and they sleepwalk. Right. Or they act out their dreams. And some people have disorders that cause them to do that. And so not only is the machinery there for you to hallucinate this entire experience, that, yes, it's a little weird. Dreams are really weird. Right. But they're still cohesive. They're still a story. And not only are you doing that cognitively, but you had to also develop a switch to turn your body off so that you don't get up and do the thing that, to me, says, okay, this has to have some kind of selection pressure, because that is not an accidental.

[A]

That's a lot of evolution there.

[C]

That's a lot of engineering. The aliens were really working on it. They were busy. The first question is, why would we have that machinery? And so you need something really compelling to build that or to start to build that. And this guy, I'm going to butcher his name. His last name is Ravenswoh, I think, Anton Ravenswoh. He's a Finnish neuroscientist and philosopher. Philosopher. He's developed this theory of. The threat simulation, theory of dreaming. So he thinks that the first dreams were probably nightmares, because dreaming about a danger and rehearsing that emotionally, sending the signals to your body that would be relevant in that situation, to move your body, rehearsing it cognitively, rehearsing something dangerous would be really valuable.

[A]

We should add that works. That's military training. There's a great book on killing. The amount of people that didn't fire their guns in World War I was kind of shocking. And they trained people out of that. If you over and over and over simulate this aspect.

[C]

Well, simulations work. Pilots do simulations. Like, you don't want your pilot to be the first time he's ever thought about flying a plane his first flight. Yeah, simulations work. We use them all the time. And so, yeah, if you can simulate something while you're sleeping, even better. You don't have to waste time during the day doing it.

[A]

And you have access to a lot more stuff. Weirdly, you do.

[C]

You do. And you make connections you wouldn't make otherwise. And when you wake up, certainly before we kind of knew what dreams were, you're gonna wake up and you're gonna tell everyone you know, because you don't know why you had that. Did I go to a new world? You know, we don't really know what dreaming is. Did I travel to see my ancestors? And. And there are cultures that believe that reasonably so, you know, if I was born a thousand years ago, I'd be terrified of dreams. I wouldn't know what it was. Right. Sleeping in general is a little weird. You kind of just die at night. So weird. You go to another world and then you come back and you wake up.

[B]

You're so vulnerable for so long too.

[A]

30 your day.

[C]

And so his premise is that that would have provided a selection pressure to start to shape the cognitive machinery necessary for dreaming. And then once that takes off, you can use dreaming to simulate all sorts of things. But that was kind of the initial push. I thought dreaming was a fascinating example of maybe very early morbid cur curiosity, like our unconscious morbid curiosity. Now we're thinking about things that could happen to us and we're simulating them in our dreams. Presumably that happened before we started talking about them, before we had language. Because dreaming seems to be very evolutionarily old. We have evidence that cats and rats dream, and we're separated by. I cite it in the book. I forget what it is, you know, 50 million or 100 million years or more from them. Octopuses, who we are hundreds of millions of years separated from. In fact, they have entirely different nervous systems, but so far back. So it's not conserved from octopuses, but it developed twice is dream. So it was so important that our line developed dreaming. But then the octopus line also developed some kind of machinery for dreaming. So that suggests probably there's some selection pressure for that. And octopuses, when they dream, they tend to act out some of those dreams through their color changing. So they'll change colors and do defensive maneuvers. They'll shoot ink sometimes.

[D]

Oh, wow.

[C]

So they'll do things that are defensive in their dreams.

[B]

Wild.

[A]

The brunt of this book, hopefully will make people feel less guilty about what they enjoy. Do you think it could alleviate some of the fear that parents have when their kids are playing videos, video games.

[C]

Or just doing anything spooky? Yeah, that's one of the most common questions I get is, should I let my kid watch scary movies, or is there something wrong with them that comes from a good place? You don't want to let your kid feel afraid. You don't want to see your kid feel anxious. But if you don't let them do that in a playful way when they're young, it's going to be difficult for them to learn how to regulate those feelings later on when they're adults. So when you're a kid, you're a sponge. I mean, you are just soaking up everything in your culture. You're soaking up new skills. Your brain is using more calories when you're a kid than it ever does when you're an adult because it's. It's just processing like crazy. And so if you play with fear, you play with anxiety in these playful settings, whether it's a video game or pretend play with your friends or a scary buck. Goosebumps. Or a scary movie that's maybe appropriate for kids but still scares them. They develop those regulation skills because, like we talked about at the beginning, you are regulating how afraid you are in order to achieve that sweet spot, even when you're a kid. Right. So you're practicing and developing those tools that'll be useful later in life when.

[B]

You do the haunted house stuff. Was it very different for people who were in groups versus alone?

[C]

Nobody goes to a haunted attraction alone.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Serial killers.

[C]

Serial killers.

[A]

Have you seen someone by themselves?

[C]

I've done five or six different studies at haunted houses in Denmark and in Detroit and Austin. I don't know that I've ever seen someone come to one alone.

[B]

Yeah, Like, I would never do anything like that alone.

[C]

It's not because they're too scared either, necessarily. It's just not as fun.

[A]

Yeah. You want to share the experience with somebody.

[C]

And so one of the things. Have you ever been to a haunted attraction?

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Lots of couples go, yeah, intimacy.

[C]

And you can see how your partner responds when they are afraid. So not just how you respond to fear and anxiety, but how do they respond when they're out of their elements?

[A]

My husband gonna shit his pants.

[C]

Is he gonna push me into the aisle?

[B]

Exactly. How do they respond also with your fear? It is a lot of.

[C]

In a safe way.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Like, that's the important part.

[A]

I've had a lot of people break up after a trip to Oana.

[C]

I have a study I haven't published yet where we look at exactly that. Like relationship satisfaction after a haunted house based on how the men and women in those relationships responded during the.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

You're going to find some ugly stuff. No one's going to want to admit what you find. Okay. My two last questions are. You say in the book. I forget the percentage, but over the last 20 years, horror movies have doubled their market share from about early 19.

[C]

90S is when we have comprehensive data.

[A]

So it is doubled in market share, tripled this year.

[C]

Doubled around Covid achieved its highest share ever. I think it was around 12%. I just checked about three or four weeks ago, horror was at like 17%. And it's the only genre that's really had like an upward spike in the last 10 years or so. All the other genres action has had a small one. Most all the others have had a downward trajectory. Horror has been on the upward trajectory. It's at like 17 now.

[A]

Yeah. So how do you explain that? And then part two of this question is, have you considered the increasing need for this stuff as we have all of this architecture to be on high alert for things to keep ourselves alive? And we live in this insanely safe environment that is very, very sterile and without any of the real threats that we've always. We have a big apparatus that has nothing to focus on, basically. Do you think this is a result of that in any way?

[C]

Yeah. So to answer that question first, yes, I think that's some of it. When you live in a safe world, your mind is saying, well, why is nothing bad happening? Are you unprepared?

[A]

You might even see certain things tick up, like conspiracy theory stuff that is harder to observe. But something must be afoot.

[C]

And you're hearing, okay, all this bad stuff is happening around the world, but I'm not seeing it where I am. So maybe I'm just unprepared. Maybe other people are plotting against me and they're trying to keep their aggression secret from me.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And then the other question about why is horror on the rise? This is a conclusion that I came to in the past month or two. So I'm still kind of speculating about it. But when Covid became a global pandemic around 2020, a lot of people who had sworn off horror since they were kids, they watched a scary movie when they were a kid. They watched Poltergeist or something, and they're like, I'm never watching a scary movie again. They had to this urge to watch something scary, whether it was contagion or even horror. Horror had a moment during 2020 and 2021. A lot of people, I think, became horror fans again in 2020 and realized that as adults, they kind of like it and they can handle it a little better. And I think that they've just been watching it more. And because they're watching more, filmmakers are taking note, production companies are taking note, and they're producing more of them. There's more money for horror now.

[A]

Yeah, it's like a virtuous cycle.

[C]

That's my speculation about what gone on is that there is a new crop of horror fans that popped up around 2020, and now four or five years later, we're seeing the consequence of that, which is horror being on just an upward trajectory while everything else is kind of stale.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. And then my last question is, is there any evidence that killers or predators have watched or consumed more morbid media than others?

[C]

Not more. So do serial killers like movies about killing? Probably. Dahmer famously like the Exorcist 3, which is a really obscure one. I actually don't know if he liked horror movies, but he loved the Exorcist.

[A]

That was his movie.

[C]

That was. That was his. His kink.

[A]

Not generally regarded as the best exercise.

[C]

Right now, even in the top two, I don't think. And I talk about in the book, Dahmer saying that he was morbidly curious. He used the term. He was being interviewed and asked why he went back to look at a body or something. He said, because I was morbidly curious. And he said, in all these movies, it's stories about this stuff, but I actually do it.

[B]

God.

[C]

And then I give the example of the Columbine shooters. They supposedly love the game Doom and they loved Mortal Kombat. This is in the 90s, when those are the violent games. And so of course, in both of those cases, people were like, aha. That's why Dahmer killed and eight people because he liked the Exorcist 3. And that's why those kids shot up the school because they played Doom.

[A]

Yeah, along with 10 million other kids who didn't shoot up the school. Yeah, exactly.

[C]

Along with every other kid.

[A]

It's statistically relevant.

[B]

No, but we want answers.

[C]

Again, that's an intuitive answer. Right. But then you have to ask, well, what about every other kid that plays violent video games? And what about the evidence that shows that it's not related to aggression? Which is pretty much all the evidence now. And if you actually look at. This is not work that I've done, but if you look at school shooters, which are almost all boys or men, and you look at whether or not they played violent video games for the ones we have data for, they're actually less likely to have played violent video games than the average teenage boy.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And that doesn't mean that playing violent video games keeps you from being a school shooter either. It probably just means it has nothing to do with it. They were probably social outcasts. In other kinds of ways. They had interests that were different from other boys their age. And they also have all these other things going on besides that. So the question is, does morbid curiosity make you violent or dangerous? No. But if you have all these other things where maybe you, like, lack empathy and you have low levels of disgust sensitivity and you have high levels of psychopathy and you're morbidly curious, maybe then you get a cocktail of things, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But by itself, and even in combination with many other traits, it doesn't seem to be related to any kind of dangerous or psychopathological outcomes.

[A]

Okay, good. Hopefully that's comforting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Morbidly curious. A scientist explains why we can't look away. Colton, this has been very fascinating. It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for coming.

[C]

Of course. It was fun. Thank you.

[A]

We hope you enjoyed this episode. Unfortunately, they made some mistakes.

Is there a famous Sophia song? Oh, I can't think of one.

[B]

I don't think so.

[A]

Sophia the giraffe.

[B]

Do you think most. Sophie. That's Sophie. I know. Do you think most names have songs?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow, that's cool.

[A]

You've heard that. Your song, right?

[B]

A little bit of Monica in my life. A little. I'm not going to sing.

[A]

A little bit of Monica in my life. Yeah.

[B]

Mambo number five.

[A]

Did they say Monica?

[B]

Uhhuh.

[A]

Oh, they do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I was thinking of a different song.

[B]

What?

[A]

You know, it's like, monica, Monica. I think I want your number, Monica.

[B]

Oh, but is that not it at all? Thanks.

[A]

Oh, that's Gloria.

[B]

But I like that.

[A]

Well, you were like, damn. This actually sounds like it could be a hit because it was.

[B]

Sure. Well, I knew it was a hit, but I didn't think it was my name. And I was right.

[A]

I think I know more, but I have to really think on it.

[B]

Okay, well, we already know Mamba number five. That's pretty good.

[A]

That's really good. Yeah, that's more than. There are Dax songs.

[B]

I know your. Yours is true.

[A]

That's okay. That's okay.

[B]

That's okay. You got a chair?

[A]

Oh, I just got a weird phone list. You know, I follow this account on Instagram. I really like it. I'm shocked I haven't sent you forwarded you any.

[B]

What is it?

[A]

It's just all data, and it's all global data. Okay, so this one was the universities producing the most billionaires.

[B]

Oh, is that kind of interesting? Yeah, but is it obvious or there's some twists and turns.

[A]

I mean, it's obvious. What's interesting is this is the one the world over.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

This is every university in the world.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And of the. Let's see how long this list is. 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 22.

[B]

And I wonder.

[A]

No. 21.

[B]

Are you feeling antsy to read them all? Cuz, like, now you know what it's like.

[A]

No, I more wanted you to guess.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

Out of 21, how many are not American?

I can't count it loud.

[B]

I mean, I was going to laugh at you because that was a good clue.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. I think.

[A]

Big world.

[B]

It's a big, big world, isn't it?

[A]

China's a huge country. Over a billion people and.

[B]

Oh, God. Okay, now what about like undergrad and grad? Because this is tricky because some of these people might have gone to an undergrad in one place and a grad in another.

[A]

Do you think you're overthinking it? But let me see if it delineates.

[B]

That I am thinking it.

[A]

I guess it would have to mean everything. Their graduate program, their undergraduate programs. Like the school. How many did the school produce?

[B]

Okay, this is hard because I think most billionaires go to graduate school. Most.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I think they come. A lot of them come here for graduate school.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So I'm to say six of them are not great guess.

[A]

Seven.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Now what's crazy is how dramatic the difference is, Right? So first place, what's your guess? Do you know? You say it. Harvard.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Harvard has 100. Has produced 104 billionaires. Third place has produced 38. Wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Second place, 69. Great number. Congrats to. I'll give it away. Stanford.

[B]

I was going to say.

[A]

Okay, you want to guess three?

[B]

Yeah, I want to. I want to guess. You always get to guess. Yeah, mit.

[A]

Great guess. You want to know what number that is? Yeah, that's number five.

[B]

Okay, so. And what about not Yale?

[A]

Is that a guess?

[B]

Oh, my God, you're. Yeah, you're mean about Liz. I fun about them.

[A]

Okay, I'm sorry. Oh, wait, ask me again.

[B]

Not Yale.

[A]

No, no, no, not Yale.

[B]

Okay. Is Jesus. Okay, Harvard, Stanford, not Yale. What was MIT again? Five.

[A]

Five.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

One above MIT is a shocker. The other one's like. Yeah, I guess that makes sense.

[B]

Is Princeton. No, no, I. I take it back. I take it back.

[A]

I'm looking Caltech. I don't even know if Princeton's. Oh, no, Princeton made the list in the high teens.

[B]

Is Caltech on there?

[A]

No.

[B]

Oh, okay. If you tell me number three is ucla. I Will be. So I won't believe this list. Okay.

[A]

That'd be great though, right? Under Stanford, ahead of mit.

[B]

Is it iit? Is that on the list at all?

[A]

There isn't India one, but it's University of Mumbai, which could be iit. Yeah. And that's pretty high up. So the first country to make the list after the US in 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. Eighth place is University of Mumbai with 22 billionaires.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And I guess that makes them tied with Cornell, which is above them for some reason. Yeah. Okay, you want to hear third?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Pen.

[B]

Oh, Wharton. Yep.

[A]

So they have 38. So again, 10469 for Stanford, 38 for University of Pennsylvania. Now four. I thought was. I was like, really?

[B]

Can you give me a hint? Oh, that's what's fun about Liz.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. There were a lot of protests here.

[B]

Berkeley.

[A]

No. Oh, more recent than newsworthy. I'll give you a hints in New York.

[B]

Columbia.

[A]

Columbia.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Can you believe Columbia's four? No disrespect to Columbia graduates.

[B]

Shocked.

[A]

But I do. You know, maybe one of the explanations for that. Again, going to sound like I'm taking the wind out of Columbia sails. But you're already in New York and the families that are already rich people who live in Manhattan are among the richest people in the country. So you're saying they were already. They probably entered already in a great.

[B]

Position, inherited billionaire status. Some of them.

[A]

Or they started with quite a bit and made it more.

[B]

I just don't think of Colombia as money making school. Yeah.

[A]

It's like all academic.

[B]

I think of it more. Create some creative. I mean, Cie went there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And she is on track to be a billionaire. So it makes sense now.

[A]

Makes sense. So Columbia is number four, MIT five with 28 billionaires.

[B]

Okay. I'm shocked. That's not higher.

[A]

Yale, 24.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Cornell, 22. University of Mumbai, 22. Can't pronounce this university, but it's in China.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

19. Great. Tsingua.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

NYU.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

18. USC.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Again, rich kids go there. So you start with a private school. That's a lot of money.

[B]

Yeah. Yes, that. Of course, all of these are hard.

[A]

Like it's much more common for someone to go from a millionaire family to a billionaire than I think it is from a welfare family to a billionaire.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

[A]

Okay, moving on. USC. Next is University of California. Berkeley 15. U of M 15. Tied with Berkeley. Peking University. 14. Moscow State University. 13. Princeton 13. University of California. Los Angeles. 12. University of Chicago. 12. Fudan University 12, Seoul National University and Xijiang University 12.

[B]

Wow, that was a fun list.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Yeah. See, you did them all. You didn't do top 10. It's really, you know, lists, when you're reading them, you want to keep going and now you understand.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Now you really understand it.

[A]

I'm going to push back a little bit though.

Your lists. Yep. Rarely 21. They're often 100 and I am scared of 100.

[B]

We'll just see next time you're holding a list that's 100 and we'll see what happens.

[A]

Okay, we'll see, we'll see. I'll continue to screen grab my favorite post on Instagram.

[B]

That is really fun. Now, how many universities do we think have produced one billionaire? Like do we think almost all have. No.

[A]

Well, there's. The whole point of this was they just announced like currently there's 2990 some billionaires worldwide. Okay, so in reality that's not a ton of billionaires.

[C]

No.

[A]

Out of 7 billion.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Like sometimes you think billion is diluted. I do. Like I'll, I'll start thinking like, I guess billion means what a million meant to me when I was a kid.

[B]

Like when you're a kid, you knew.

[A]

Someone that was a millionaire. It was like unimaginable. But you just. The new news is, is populated with stories of people becoming billionaires.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I just read like the youngest female billionaire of all time was just crowned. She's like a 27 year old who created some, I think marketplace where you can bet on all kinds of weird things. Elections. And that's kind of what I discerned from what the article said.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But yeah, I think she's 27. Yes. Younger than Taylor was. I think the youngest up until then.

[B]

She really are. I, I mean, I don't want to shit on this 27 year old, but sounds like she's taking from the poor and the vulnerable. So. Okay, listen, I just googled how many universities in the world. This is annoying because it should be, it should be very clear. But it says there are an estimated 25,000 to 50,000 universities in the world.

[A]

Well, that is a great quick answer to no, they couldn't have all produced billionaire.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I wonder if University of Georgia has produced a billionaire. I'm gonna look.

[A]

I bet it has.

Let's go uga.

Let's go dogs. Oh, for the listener, Monica's jaw opened up like it reticulated like a, a snake about to eat a copy bar. Then it closed and I'M not sure what that means.

[B]

Well, the University of Georgia. Uga.

[A]

Go Dogs.

[B]

Roll Tide, Take it back.

[A]

You're not roll dogs.

[B]

You're not allowed.

[C]

I know.

[A]

It's so fun.

[B]

Has many successful alumni, including celebrities like Ryan Seacrest. That's not true. AI is not right.

[A]

Oh, he did not go there.

[B]

His sister went there. Okay, now I'm worried, but I'm. I feel really.

[A]

I'm almost shocked. We've never interviewed Seacrest.

[B]

Wow. It does say he went there.

[A]

Okay, so AI is correct.

[B]

I'm shocked, too. He's your age old. He's 50.

[A]

Yeah. It's all the more reason to be on the show. That's why I said he find himself in good company.

[B]

But he didn't get a degree. I got two, so.

All right, he can have one of mine. Okay. Including celebrities like Ryan Seacrest. And Georgia is home to billionaire. Oh, Georgia. The state is home to billionaires. Duh. Like the Kathy family of Chick Collet brothers.

[A]

Go there. Are they from Georgia?

[B]

I don't know. Specific lists of billionaire alumni.

[A]

Often I'm conflating Coca Cola and Koch brothers. Probably.

[B]

Okay, I don't think we have any.

[A]

Colonel Sanders.

[B]

Go there.

What is wrong with you?

[A]

That was a good joke.

[B]

No, it wasn't. I don't even get it. Why? Because he's from the south and he's stupid.

[A]

Doesn't even make sense. Because he's from Kentucky. Clearly Kentucky Fried Chicken. But it was kind of funny.

[B]

I didn't understand.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Ryan Seacrest is not a billionaire.

[A]

No.

[B]

So seems like maybe we don't have any yet.

[A]

You have a real task on your hands.

[B]

Do you think people would be happy for you? Right?

[A]

No.

[B]

Okay, that's.

[A]

I don't think any. It's so interesting. Like, I feel like unanimously. People hate billionaires.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Yet 100 of people would want a billion dollars.

[B]

I know.

[A]

It's like, make up your mind. You can't want something and hate it at the same time.

[B]

But you can, because people are comp.

[A]

Yeah, we're full of contradictions. You're right. I found one.

[C]

Says the guy that founded Callan Calendly. Top A. Tonia.

[A]

Are you reading from Jay Z? Are you China? He.

[C]

But he graduated from uga.

[A]

Oh, that was his name. Yeah. I thought you were talking about product.

[B]

I heard two.

[C]

Calendly foundations. Calendar.

[D]

Cap.

[B]

Callan.

[C]

Callan.

[A]

I don't know how to say it. I give up. Yeah.

[B]

What's it like?

[C]

Calendar.

[A]

But ly. And no.

[C]

Er.

[A]

Oh, my God. Calendar with an Ly and no. Er.

[B]

What's his name? Oh boy.

[A]

Okay, forget it.

[B]

I don't believe.

Okay.

[A]

Oh, oh, look at the zero to hero. Okay, great. Yeah.

[C]

Everything in this picture.

[A]

Awatona. You did a good job with Awatona.

[B]

I think mastermind behind the scheduling app Calendly.

[A]

I don't like the name of that. We didn't need Lee.

[B]

Hey, just.

[A]

I love him. He's a wonderful person.

[B]

Obviously it was working people. I think it's great because you know what? It made him a billion dollars. So it can't. The name can't have been too bad.

[A]

Absolutely. Now I'm going to ask a very dangerous question. If he were white.

[B]

Yes. This is a black man.

[A]

This is a black man. If he was, he were white. Would you like the name Calend?

Come on.

[B]

I don't know. Because he's not white. One of just two us black tech billionaires. That's amazing. And he went to Georgia.

[A]

So sad. But yes, amazing.

[B]

Well, it's sad, but it's cool that he went to Georgia. But he is taking my spot as the first billionaire to come out of that school.

[A]

Yeah, that's okay. You can root for him.

[D]

Of course.

[B]

I do.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And what a great. And what a great name.

[B]

Actually. Calendar, this is interesting. Do you think people don't root for him?

[A]

I do.

[B]

I think they do. From zero to hero.

[A]

I think they do.

[B]

They should.

[A]

I think we all have. As we should. We have a different appetite for when black folks get a lot of money. I think when black folks floss and they're like showy and have big cars and stuff, we don't care.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

When white folks do it, you're like, jesus Christ, man, get it together.

[B]

Just calm down.

[A]

But I. Yeah. Never bothers me if someone's flossing and flexing and that changes per ethnicity, which is so weird and funny. Like each human being is just a human being.

[B]

Yeah. You know, but there are soc. I mean there's just struggles that we can't, you know, there's societal struggles that are embedded and you know, we know about embedding. We know about all that.

[A]

Stay tuned for more Armchair expert if you dare.

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[C]

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[B]

All right, so to be clear, I have. I don't have a billion dollars and I don't want anyone to come after me because I don't have that. Now this is a ding, ding, ding.

[A]

They are angry enough at what you got already.

[B]

I know. And I actually, I think that's frustrating to me. A self made lady not born into wealth, one generation away from abject poverty. My dad grew up in a village. Literally in a village village. That's a big deal.

[A]

It is huge.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So people need to get on board.

[A]

They need to wake up.

[B]

They need to wake up now. Woman of color. Me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Ding, ding, ding. Two things to say about women of color. One thing to say about women of color. The pant. This Woman of color.

[A]

Oh, the pantone.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

I saw that today and I got very excited for you and I even followed a link to see the color you did so that I could be supportive of this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the link had 300 popups and I was never able to see the color.

[B]

Oh, well, it seems like you're not following me close enough on Instagram.

[A]

I haven't been on Instagram today.

[B]

Okay. I posted about it yesterday because as people may or may not know, I use the Pantone color of the year as my phone background. So this is a very exciting day for me when it's revealed and I have it for the following year. And it's last year it was Mocha Mouse. Nope, it was Mocha Moose. But it was really close to mouse, so it was me.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

This year is a disappointment.

[A]

In name or color?

[B]

In color. It's called Cloud Dancer and it's white. The color is white.

[A]

It is like. Is there wisps of blue in there? I don't like the background they chose. It's so confusing.

[B]

Well, the background, they are trying to. They're trying to make it better by putting it on a sky, which it is better on a sky because as it is, it's just white.

[A]

Yeah. I don't know if you're going to be able to have a full white background. You'll be able to see. See anything.

[B]

Okay, so this is the issue. So it's a little gray.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It has like a teeny bit of gray. And this really made me go down a mental rabbit hole. Okay, you are going to be able to see because. What do you mean you'd still be able to see?

[A]

That's that.

[B]

No, no, this is Mocha Moose. I'm not Allowed to put it on early. It's bad luck.

[A]

Also, like, once that whites are. You don't even see your calendar. You're not going to be. All that stuff that's white goes away.

[B]

Well, it's a lot. Little gray.

[A]

Well, we're about to find out.

[B]

I know now that's the thing that sent me down a rabbit hole.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

I was like, this white. That's going to look so dumb on this phone. How committed am I to tradition?

[A]

You're very committed.

[B]

I'm extremely committed. Me.

[A]

As a core tenant of your identity.

[B]

Yeah. And I was really thinking about that last night. I was like, man. Because somebody was like, oh, so are you just not gonna do it? And I was like, no, I'm. I have to do it because it.

[A]

Would be bad luck not to, like.

[B]

Maybe I. I wouldn't go so far as to actually. I don't think. I think that. I don't think it would be bad luck. I think I would be like. I think I would just be very sad.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Like, that something was ending.

[A]

You lost something.

[B]

I lost something. Something that I enjoy a lot. And that. And that, like, makes me happy. I look forward to. Is no longer a thing. Is. Is a little too much for me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I'm gonna have a white background on the phone.

[A]

But it didn't.

[B]

I was like, God, at what point? I mean, that's like my controlling nature, huh? At what point could I say, like, you know, it's okay. You don't. You can put. It doesn't have to be that.

[A]

I think it's funny. Funny how the mechanism to me seems very related to addiction, which is like, you do this thing one time, it gives you this feeling, and you now just have to have that feeling all the time. So it's like, whatever. First time you did this, you liked how that felt.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And you want to use this mechanism to feel good again and again. And I'm not saying, like, there's anything wrong with that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it. Feel. It. It does remind me of addiction. Right.

[B]

So, like. But I think most people would say, like, they have traditions.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

You know, And. And so when does it cross over into it being a superstition, pathological or a superstition or something that's actually not causing joy, causing suffering.

[A]

Well, I don't have this opinion, but I can imagine this opinion which is the more traditional you have, the less real estate there is for new discovery. Just in life, if you could imagine. Like, currently we have like seven holidays or some. Something like that. Where we all do kind of the same thing. And that's lovely.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you had 364holidays, that would leave a single day to discover something new or novel.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So there's got to be a magic balance.

[B]

I think it's a balance. I do think there's something really special and beautiful about consistent and commitment. And it's hard to do both of those things in life. So I, I, it's meaningful to me. But if, yeah, if you make everything a tradition, then it's not special. But I don't think I make everything a tradition. But this is a tradition.

[A]

And when did it start? Also, how do you get that image on your phone? Do you go to it, zoom in, take a screenshot shot and then do it?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because I have to use the actual thing.

[A]

Bye.

[B]

You probably can that.

[A]

How do I spend my money at Calendly.

Way?

[B]

Rather it really rolled off your tongue.

[A]

And it's a great name. Yeah. All good names roll off your tongue.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Starbucks.

[B]

So I think it was like four or five years ago.

[A]

Okay. You're not that in bed with it.

[B]

No, I'm not, I'm not. But it does bring me joy. It's like, ooh, it's coming.

[A]

I know. Yeah.

[C]

Can you just get a phone case.

[A]

That'S in that color?

[B]

Oh, no, that looks pretty. This is where maybe I am too stubborn. It's like, yeah, that's probably a good thing to do. That's a good solve. It's like, oh, I'm still, it's still part of it. But no, I need it to be the background because that's how it is and that's how it's supposed to be.

[A]

There is a level of rigidity.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I understand. Think how rigid I am. What would you give Assess me out.

[B]

Of 10 on tradition.

[A]

This is a dumb question. Cuz it's going to be context dependent.

[B]

Yeah. As everything thing is, I actually don't think you are like hyper. Yeah, I'm not like rigid. Well, you are. And.

[A]

You go, you go. I don't really think you are. I go, yeah, I'm not. You go old.

[B]

No, you didn't let me finish my sentence. That's the problem. I was going to say you're, I don't think you're rigid at traditions.

[A]

Okay, okay, okay.

[B]

But I think you have areas in life where you're tightly wound.

[A]

Yeah, well, you're right. I am a. That's why I'm saying it was a dumb question because it's like, on one hand, I am such a creature of habit. I love routines more than anything.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

You're very rigid about that.

[A]

I am. I am now. I don't get upset, though, when I don't get to do it. I just do it. And when the times I can't, I. I'm. I'm okay with it.

[B]

Well, you know, sometimes you're like, oh, and I didn't get to work out today. And, you know, you do.

[A]

If I go, if I have to make. Like, it happens at least once or twice a week where I. I can't work out because we have two guests and there's just no time. And I roll with that. But. Yeah, if it's three days in a row I can't work out, then I'm starting to.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I'm also starting to feel.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean. Yes. On the scale. No, you're not at a hundred of even that. Even like the routine. Some people that really can't handle any deviation. And then I think on traditional tradition.

You don't have any. So.

[A]

So it.

[B]

No, I'm kidding. I think you like traditions, but I don't think you're married to them.

[A]

And I do think I value novelty more than tradition.

[B]

Right. That's true. We're very different in that way.

[A]

You know, I love tradition, though. I love Christmas.

[B]

That's. Well, you love Christmas, but you don't have to. To do the same thing. I mean.

[A]

No, no. In fact, we're switching the whole thing up this year. Last year was a different thing than the year before.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

But, I mean, in so far as I want the lights, I want the tree, I want all that stuff, and I want to watch the same movies, you know, I've already gotten through some of the movies. Yeah. And I do feel like if it's December 24th.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we haven't watched Christmas Vacation. Yeah. I get this feeling like I. Up.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, it's a real.

[B]

Yeah, I have that.

[A]

How. How'd this happen? Y. I'm disappointed in myself.

[B]

Okay, so this year, your trees were delivered, right?

[A]

No, this year, Carly went and got.

[B]

Okay. Yeah.

[A]

Three trees.

[B]

Yes. You guys did not go pick out.

[A]

Trees this year, which is the first time in 12 years of having kids that we didn't go do the thing.

[B]

Yes. And I. When I.

[A]

But as you remember from previous trips, it's often a disaster. But it's.

[B]

But that's what's. Like. That's fun.

[A]

You're right.

[B]

And when you said, like, oh, yeah, Carly got The trees.

[A]

I. You had a little shiver.

[B]

I was like, oh, my God. You guys didn't go do that. And not. Not for any other reason than, like, isn't that, like, a tradition?

[A]

Right, right, right.

[B]

And so, for me, I mean, that's Pig Day. That's. Jess and I. We get our tree every year. It's. It's a.

[A]

If you were going to miss that, it would.

[B]

No, I can't miss it.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

And I mean, well, we can just tell people.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Peek behind the curtain.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We had a. There was a bit of a debacle.

[A]

We had a pod.

[B]

Not fight.

[A]

No. Just a pod complication.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

A pod drama.

[B]

We had a pod drama. And I'll say. My perspective.

[A]

Okay, great.

[B]

If that's okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, yeah, we have these traditions. We do secret hierarchy and. And. And Thanksgiving with everyone. And it's so. It's so special.

[A]

Yeah, totally.

[B]

And I feel that everyone thinks that.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I. They do.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely.

[B]

So. Okay, that's great. Now I have, like, so many traditions. You have about seven or eight during that weekend, specifically. It's my favorite weekend of the. Of the year.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And it starts off with Mom's giving.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Then it's our pods giving. So special. Then I have Black Friday tradition with Cali at Brentwood Country Mart.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Where we get all the sales. Well.

That'S where all the deals.

[A]

I've been told by some experts that there's not a lot of deals at that.

[B]

I'm an expert in Black Friday. Nobody is. Nobody else is. So we go there, and that's, like, a beautiful, fun day I have with Cali. You know, Cali is a family, so it's. Everyone's, like, just making decisions to put that aside and make time for one another.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And then culminating Saturday with Jess Pig Day. We go to Home Depot. I don't know if we're allowed to go to Home Depot anymore, but we do. And we are. And we get our tree, and then we give birth to it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I do. And then we put it up. He puts the lights up.

[A]

And now we're in Christmas.

[B]

And now we're in Christmas zone. And. And we're putting up all this stuff. And then we do a special lunch normally at Houston's. And it's a whole thing. It's a whole day. It's a beautiful day.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then this year, understandably, of course, you guys were like, we want to maybe go to Nashville.

[A]

Yeah. I sent a text to everybody.

[B]

Yes. To the. To the whole group. That said like, Hey, 22ish people.

[A]

Well, not the kids included, but they weren't on the text. But anyway, noise, right? A lot of people.

[B]

And it said like, we're tossing around the idea of going to Nashville for Thanksgiving. We'll pay for everyone. Very generous. We'll pay for everyone to go. Basically. Like, how do people find out?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

Okay. And then I made a grave error. I responded very quickly. I'm also very on top of my phone.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I responded very quickly. I can't go because I have traditions with cats, Callie and Jess. And by the way, normally we do our pods giving on Thursday on Thanksgiving.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I was like, I have traditions with Callie and Jess Friday and Saturday, so I can't go.

But if it works for everyone else, have fun. Go do it. Have fun.

[A]

And a thumbs up.

[B]

Okay, now I'm gonna stop outing now from here because I want to talk about just us. But like then somebody responded immediately and said, yes. Oh my God, Great. I'm so happy. And I got reside, die. Like something like really died inside of me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it was a very outsized reaction, but it was very, very. I wasn't, I wasn't being dramatic.

[A]

I was feeling core fear was ignited.

[B]

Abandonment. I'll be alone.

[C]

Alone.

[A]

They'll. I mean, I'm disposable, expendable.

[B]

I. I thought this meant the same thing to everyone as it does everyone else is white.

[A]

I'm brown. Somehow.

[B]

It wasn't that. It was a little bit of Pilgrims and Indians situation. But no, I. It was just like, wait, why wouldn't this, why wouldn't we what? Like, it, it really, it was very destabilized.

And then I knew, I was like, well, I can't. I can't do this. Where I'm just like so upset on my own and like resentful of everyone. Because they've done this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because they've decided to go. Even though I said you can go, which was my fault.

[A]

Thumbs up.

[B]

No, be nicer.

[A]

I'm being pretty nice, I think.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then I. I've only added one.

[A]

Thing to this story and it was thumbs up twice.

[B]

Okay. And then, and then I. I really couldn't do it. So I responded back because then, then people, other people are chiming in.

[A]

Uhhuh.

[B]

And I said, I. I'm going to be honest, this makes me so sad.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

And so I'm gonna remove myself from the chain.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that was a self protection. That was like, I can't keep Seeing these texts coming today, fine. And then I removed myself from the chain. And then there was, then it was a drama because.

[A]

Drama?

[B]

Yeah, there was pod drama because I was very upset. And then people were upset that I was upset, but they still wanted to go on the trip. And then you wanted to cancel the trip and you were mad at me and well, I wondered when you were going to jump in.

[A]

Well, just, I just want to say from my perspective, I sent this text.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then I didn't look at the, that chain. I missed everything. By the time I'm alerted that this pod drama is going on, Kristen has said, oh no. Monica removed herself from the chain. And I'm like, I don't even know what that means.

[B]

You're not very tech savvy as we know.

[A]

And then. So I then kind of go through. Now I'm seeing the whole thing pretty far after it all happened. And then I just wrote, you know what, guys, scrap it. No problem. Let's just, we'll go back to.

[B]

I wasn't on that.

[A]

Oh yeah, I sent it to everyone. I said, well, okay, you know, I'm go. Not a good idea, so just forget it. And then. Yeah, that caused its own thing. Cuz people were excited to go. And then you and I had an issue because you're like, no, you have to.

[B]

Well.

[A]

And I was like, I'm not going to do anything that prevents you from being with us on Thanksgiving. Well, well, I was mad at you. Sure.

[B]

You're, you're skipping some steps.

[A]

Yeah, I was mad at you.

[B]

You were mad at me.

[A]

I was mad at you for not being honest the first time. Text.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Because I felt like it ended up trapping.

[B]

Yeah, you felt like I trapped people. Which, which I did do unintentionally. Yeah, I thought the right, that I was doing the right thing. And then immediately I was like, I.

[A]

I was wrong and I owed you an apology. And I'll still say I'm sorry is I was like, that felt like a test.

[B]

I know.

[A]

And it, that was the part that I was like, I got my own trigger. Is just like I have certain people in my life, our life, that will test you and they need to. And I, that's a big one for me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So now all of a sudden I was like, well, this was a trap. Like you said, go everyone. Have fun.

[B]

Yeah, you got, you got worked up about that piece. And I, and was not, I was not trying to do that. I was not trying to test.

[A]

But you know what I didn't have? Which you might have thought I had, which I really didn't have. I had. No. No. Part of me was like, oh, fuck, now we can't go to Nashville. I didn't have that. I was like, okay, cool. I floated the idea. It backfired. Let's just. We'll stick with the normal thing and then my family will go to Nashville on Friday or whatever.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I didn't, I didn't. I didn't even.

[A]

Like, I was upset to cancel the idea, but I'm.

[B]

I would. I understand why that would make you sad and upset. You love it there. You want to go there. You want to spend your time.

[A]

Also, several members of our pod have ever been there.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So I was like, oh, this is great. This will be a one. We'll be able to get everyone together. And.

[B]

Well, and then that was all. There was also layers. I mean, it's so layered and so complicated. But I, you know, you. Then, you know, we record the next day and we're mad at each other and you. But I, I would. I was never upset with you or Chris. Kristen.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I mean, this is unfair to everyone else. But I wasn't. I was like, oh, of course.

[C]

They.

[B]

They are just offering up something nice. They're just floating it. I felt so sad when it was like just yeses across the board after I had immediately said, I can't go. That was the painful part. It had nothing to do with the trip. The trip. Great. Like, yeah, of course you guys want to go do that. I would want to go if I didn't have these things.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So the problem is then, like, I come in, you're upset with me because of this potent. This entrapment. And I am not upset with you. But then I'm like, oh, he's being so. He's so mad at me.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. For being hurt.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm like, where's the empathy? I'm so sad.

[A]

I know. I know.

[B]

We worked it out.

[C]

We worked it out.

[A]

And then the solution was we had things even on Wednesday.

[B]

It was perfect.

[C]

No problem.

[A]

It was great.

[B]

It was perfect.

[A]

And then we all flew at 7am yeah.

[B]

The rest of the group went and had a wonderful time.

[A]

It was so fun. It was. It was such a nice three days. Cuz as much as I absolutely love summer and you're there. You know, I'm on the boat every. It's like boat to breakfast.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Boat to dinner, but activity.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

You're moving around.

[A]

Let's go downtown to Bricktops. Let's go out to this restaurant. Well, with 22 people, we're not going to a restaurant.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's winter, so it's not warm out. There's no boating to be done. You're not even going to ride the motorcycles that are there. So we just sat in a house for three days. All of us playing games.

[B]

Jealous.

[A]

Oh, sorry. I'll back off the details.

[B]

I made these choices. But that's awesome.

[A]

We did Die Hard, first night. Christmas.

[C]

Christmas movie.

[B]

Never seen it.

[A]

A lot of people hadn't seen it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And everyone's like, isn't that a Christmas movie? So someone picked Die Hard. And then we did Beverly Hills Cop. Oh. And then we did Scrooged.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

So it was like games all day, order food and then movie at night.

[B]

Love it. Very cozy.

[A]

Pools broke. The hot tub was broke. You know, tons. I was like in. You know.

[B]

Yeah. You were in a little bit fixer mode.

[A]

Sauna worked. So we sauna nice. And we ate fun food and we did a lot of fun stuff.

[B]

That's awesome.

[A]

And it was great. And you were missed. It was such a fun time.

[B]

I'm sad I couldn't be there. But I'm also happy I got to do all the things on top of.

[A]

The being excluded fear. I would imagine you're also already. Nashville's this thing. It's like I'm changing everything. I'm moving there. I'm quitting Nashville. Nashville, Nashville. Now Thanksgiving's in Nashville. I'm sure on top of the other anxiety about Nashville, it's like now our tradition got moved to Nashville.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Or was that not in the mix?

[B]

It was. It's not the Nashville specific piece. It's the. Everything is changing at a pace I can't currently handle right now.

[A]

Right. Right.

[B]

And. And it's. It's too overwhelming for me. But then I had to work through that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I did. And it's okay. And change is okay.

[A]

And you gave me a huge gift, which it never occurred to me me you gave. Could do this. So we had a full Thanksgiving on Wednesday.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But then when we got to Nashville. Hannah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Sweet Hannah. Most beautiful singer in the world.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

She had made a whole other Thanksgiving. So we had two full blown, sit down, insane meal, eat all day leftovers. I'm like, this should be a double.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Should be a double day holiday. And then we all flew home on Southwest on Sunday. One of the busiest travel days of the year.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Very.

[A]

And somehow it shook out where almost all 21 of us ended up in a middle Seat.

[B]

Oh, my. Wow.

[A]

I, as you know, got sick.

[B]

Yeah, you were sick.

[A]

Kristen got sick.

Those packed flights, man.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, when you walk on, you're like, okay, I'm going to feel like shit probably for three days.

[B]

Yeah, that'll happen. That'll happen. Anyway, okay, so that was Thanksgiving. That was our pod drama.

[A]

Pod drama.

[B]

The second thing I wanted to say, it was ding, ding, ding to Columbia, because Callie went to Columbia, as I already said, and. And someone she went to Columbia with was at this event I was at last night, this Allison Roman book event.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That was very.

[A]

Were you, like, the host or MC or something?

[B]

No, I was not. Kate Berlant.

Was the moderator. I guess we'll say. Sure.

[A]

Yeah. Master of ceremony.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Motorcycle club.

[B]

And. And it was so fun.

[A]

She's hysterical.

[B]

Caperland is so funny. Yes. And. And so is Allison.

[A]

That was the comedy show we were going to. When I saw the.

Pipe.

[B]

Whoa. That's a ding, ding. That's why it is. Anyway, so that was so fun. And then we went to a. They had rented out this little, like, bar, restaurant thing after, and it was just really, really lovely. But okay. I had to check my laptop.

[C]

Ooh.

[A]

I wouldn't have done that.

[B]

I, I, I had like a real, like, I don't know what to do.

[A]

That's my life.

[B]

It really felt like I was like giving a child.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then during the talk, I was, like, thinking about it, and I was like, what if something happens to it? Or someone else checked their laptop?

[A]

I couldn't do it. I don't let my kids touch my laptop. I don't let Kristen touch my laptop. It's like everything I've written is on there.

[B]

I know.

[A]

No one's allowed to fucking touch that.

[B]

I was very scared. But for Allison, I did it.

[A]

Yeah. I was even in a situation where I'd brought my laptop. Oh. I was going to go to Zancu and do a little research with my laptop. Weird place to set up shop. Like, you're always at a nice place.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And our Zancu is really something. It's like a bus stop.

[B]

Yeah, that. Why would you pick that?

[A]

Because I was in the mood for Zancu. They do chicken, right? They gotta, they do a tarna. So good.

[B]

Really good.

[A]

But I had brought my laptop and then I was like. Once I got there and I looked at the, the terminal, Sure. I was like, I eat in. I'm just going to get takeout. And then I got out of the car and I was going to have my computer in the car, and I was, like, going to be able to see my car. Like, I walked halfway. I was like, I keep my eye on the car the entire time. I don't even feel comfortable. I got to hold my laptop while I'm in. So I went back to the car, grabbed my laptop, and had held it like a blankie. And then I did do my stuff in there, and it was great.

[B]

Oh, you did. You pivoted.

[C]

Okay, I did.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I was in there for, like, three hours.

[B]

Wow. Anyway, that was great. Buy Alison's book. Something from nothing. It's really good. And I hope Max doesn't listen to this, but Callie was like, I'm buying her book for Max for Christmas.

[A]

Oh, sorry, baby.

[B]

And then I said, you know what? I had already said that on my verbal gift guide on the fact check.

[A]

So you're a poser.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

That's what I said to her. Okay.

[A]

I used Galli as a resource.

[B]

I know. For the Netflix thing.

[A]

New.

[B]

Oh, really?

Interesting. I use someone as a resource, too.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Do you think Colton Scrivener sounds like a character name in something? I do. I don't know what genre. Like Old west movie or something.

[B]

Oh. To me, it's like, Colton. Like detective. Detective.

[A]

Detective Colton Scrivener. Could he be a detective in the Old West?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Like, at the. Okay. Coral or. What are those towns?

[B]

We can combine.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Definitely. Okay. You said Casper wasn't successful.

[A]

The Friendly Ghost.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

Casper's financial performance has varied. Oh.

[C]

Oh.

[B]

The films with the mattress company.

[A]

Oh, Casper Mattresses.

[B]

Casper the movie make. Casper. 1995 made over $287 million at the worldwide box office. Okay.

[A]

That's pretty good. More than any movie I've ever been in.

[B]

Made 102.7 million domestically and 187.6 million internationally.

[A]

Pretty good.

[B]

Pretty good.

[A]

They didn't make a sequel, though. But that's pre. For $95.

[B]

That's also like.

[A]

That's like 600.

[B]

Everything needed a sequel.

[A]

Yeah, perhaps.

[B]

Now, how long do cats sleep? 12 to 16 hours.

[A]

Okay. And if you're a male lion, 21 hours.

[B]

How long?

[A]

It's crazy that male lions are so jacked because they don't do anything but sleep and be rich.

[B]

18 to 20 hours. They have to conserve energy for activities like hunting, mating, and defending their territory.

[A]

But they don't even hunt. Well, that's. They haven't made. You know, they don't hunt.

[B]

Really?

[A]

No. Their. Their manes are too big, so they can't hide. So Literally. The women do all the hunting and then you stroll over as the male and you eat the hell out of the thing first up.

[B]

Yeah. It says the females do all the really hard work killing the majority of prey.

[A]

Yes. The only time they're needed is when the hyenas surround the carcass and then they'll go kill a bunch of hyenas. And when you need them, you need them. So they do deliver. They can mow through hyenas. I've seen some incredible fights where like one male lion takes out nine hyenas. They're so strong, they. That's all they do. And then they fight other males that roam in trying to take over the pride. But then they just sleep and then eat the food that they didn't catch.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Pretty good racket.

[B]

How come I'm not a lion?

[A]

Well, because you're a human. Well, yeah, mostly.

[B]

No, I mean in. In the game of like, what. What's our animal? Why am I not a lion?

[A]

You think you're like a lioness.

[B]

Well, I mean, I want to be picking that. No, I'm not a male lion because I think I kill.

[A]

Yeah, sure, absolutely.

[B]

So I just wonder, like, why no one ever thought of me is that I also have a very long mane.

[A]

Which makes you a male lion, though. That's maybe why you're not alone. It sounds like a good rack it to me.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Although I don't like sleep. I wouldn't want to sleep 21 hours a day. I don't want to miss everything.

[B]

I love sleeping.

[A]

I have FOMO too much. What if something fun happens on the Serengetti?

[B]

You won't care.

[A]

Cuz you're like one of my buddies killed a bunch of hyenas. I was like, I would. I would love to have seen that.

[B]

Yeah, that's why you're not one.

[A]

No, I'm a lioness. I'm a female lion.

[B]

You're a female lion. I'm a male lion.

[A]

I guess if it's either or. But I need to be out and about and hunting.

[B]

No one wants. No one thinks I'm a male or female lion. They think I'm a chinchilla with no bones.

[A]

Floating rib cage.

[B]

I just. It's. It's like, it's so offensive.

[A]

Or no rib cage. I can't remember.

[C]

Ew.

[B]

It's like so squishy.

[A]

That's because they're made for cuddling.

You don't want to be made for cuddling.

[B]

They're not. They're made for squid. Like for killing. Speaking of.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So many, many people I have run into who listen to Armchair Anonymous. Every armchair brings up the rat story that has really struck a nerve. Understandably. People cannot get over the rat in the water bottle. And now I. So I have that.

[A]

Tea kettle.

[B]

Tea kettle. Electric tea kettle. I have that very one that's next to us in my house. And it's been acting a little funny and like sometimes it's like spilling and then the. It seems strange. And I got it in my head that there's a rat in the stem.

[A]

Oh, my God. The stem is like a quarter inch thick.

[B]

I know, but I think the rat is able to get in.

[A]

Maybe an octopus could be in there, but not a rat.

[B]

I mean, a chinchilla could. If it can disable its ribs.

[A]

It still has its jawbones and stuff. It's limited.

[B]

I think there's a rat in the stem.

[A]

I really do do.

[B]

Yeah. I like tried to stick this like straw in there to.

[A]

You're crazy. Sometimes.

That'S madness. You can't look at that stem and convince yourself there's a rat inside. That's just. Look at the stem. There's no. You can't put straw in that stem.

[B]

That's what we thought. How did the racket in that water bottle. But it got in.

[A]

And then she left some part out of that story. She had the lit off for a while.

[B]

I had the lid off. But still. That's still a small.

[A]

The fact that she was drinking out of it for a while is insane. Okay. I feel like I would definitely be able to taste.

[B]

She said she. Remember she had like rat hair in her teeth.

[A]

Come on. I hate to judge our arm cherries, but.

[B]

No, no, we're not judging her. That was a great story, but also it taught me a lesson that rats can get in and they're in the stem of my tea kettle.

[A]

You should be way more worried about a 28 inch butane tank up your butt. That also happened in Armchair Anonymous. But are you worried about that?

[B]

No, because I have control over that and.

[A]

And physics has control over a rat in that stem. So I did leave it to physics.

[B]

I tried to stick this little like very tiny.

[A]

That wouldn't even fit.

[B]

Brush.

[A]

Yeah. Right in there.

[B]

And it did feel like it was hitting something.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

The sides of the suit. A super narrow tube.

[B]

Anyway, I just.

[A]

So you're gonna throw it away and.

[B]

Get a new one?

[A]

Are you gonna keep it in a Ziploc bag so you know that a rat can't get in it?

[B]

I should put a bag on top.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But that's ugly, so I can't.

[A]

A rat can get through a bag, too.

[B]

But then I would. Yeah, you'd be able to tell.

[A]

Yeah. It couldn't reseal a Ziploc bag once it got inside.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You saw that the Ziploc was unsealed. You'd know you had a rat unsealed. Field or not apart.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. Did the Saw franchise make a Billion dollars? Yes. 1.1 billion worldwide.

[A]

Worldwide.

[B]

Is Ebola rare? Yeah.

It'S considered.

[A]

Not even. Yes. Not. Not. Not any numbers. Out of 100,000. Just.

[B]

Yeah, it's considered a rare but severe disease. That's what he said. He was right.

There are no active Ebola cases in the US as of the latest information. Just FYI. So that's good news. Currently. Okay. Is Savannah considered the most haunted city in the United States? Yes. Widely considered the most haunted city in America due to its long history of tragedy, such as fires, epidemics, and battles which have left behind many unsettled spirits. Other cities frequently mentioned include New Orleans. New Orleans. And Austin.

[A]

Oh, I've not had any ghost activity on my trips to Austin.

[B]

Also Salem, Massachusetts. Obviously.

[A]

That makes sense, but.

[B]

Yeah. On all these sites. Savannah.

[A]

So do you think you got some of your fear complex by spending so much time in your childhood in Savannah?

[B]

No, because I didn't know that then.

[A]

You weren't aware of the. Thank God, apparitions and spirits?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What if your parent, your grandparents had any run ins? Are Indians big ghost folks or. No, no, they're like reincarnation, which is great.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's positive. It's not.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You don't linger. You just come back as a squirrel.

[B]

Well, I liked. I liked this at my aunt's memorial during the.

Cremation, there's so much emphasis on this. Is.

This. It's just this physical body that's gone now, but that's all it is. Yeah, exactly. It's just a vessel, like the. The spirit is still here, thriving. Yeah.

[A]

So is it here or is it elsewhere?

[B]

I just don't know.

[A]

Yeah, it's too exact.

[B]

I'm not sure where.

[A]

It's not a science.

[B]

Yeah. Okay, real quick. I think we can do it quick. We're gonna take a test.

[A]

Oh, fun.

[B]

The morbid curiosity test.

[A]

Test.

[B]

This is on Colton's website. Okay, I'm gonna ask you. Okay.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

If a head transplant was possible, I would want to watch the procedure. Now we got the same situation. Strongly disagree. Disagree. Somewhat disagree. Somewhat agree. Agree. Strongly agree.

[A]

Agree.

[B]

Okay. I think the supernatural is an interesting topic.

[A]

Disagree.

[B]

Oh, if I lived in medieval Europe, I would be interested in attending a public education execution.

[A]

Yeah, agree.

[B]

I am curious.

[A]

I wouldn't want to, but I would want to.

[B]

Right. I am curious about crime and enjoy reading detailed news accounts about murders and other violent crimes.

[C]

Sure.

[A]

Agree. Yeah, it's fun.

[B]

That's funny, though, because you don't like it when your mom calls in, is like, this person's dead.

[A]

I don't like it because I don't like what feels like my obligation, which is to express a bun. Bunch of sympathy over someone I'm just learning was even alive. That's my issue. It's like, why are you telling me this? I don't even know this person. Am I supposed to join you in.

[B]

She just wants to feel like she wants to talk about it because it's upsetting.

[A]

She just has some fun to report.

[B]

Well, I think she.

[A]

Older women love reporting these illnesses and these deaths. Everyone's mom I know does this. Does your mom not do this? It's a very mom thing.

[B]

Yeah. Not really.

[A]

Once you pass 65 as a mom, you're gonna start keeping your ear to the street about anyone who's got any kind of disease.

[B]

But I think it's to.

[A]

It's like, you heard Mary's son. I'm like, no, I don't even know who Mary is. So, no, I don't know Mary's son.

[C]

My mom does that for sure.

[A]

She does, Yeah. I think it's pretty universal, but I.

[B]

Think it's because she's. It's like. It's like gossip. It's sort of that same. Like, it's spreading information in an attempt to, like, help.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But, you know, also, maybe your mom is freaked. Your mom, when she hears Mary's son is dealing with something upsetting, like, it's upsetting to her. It might not be upsetting to you.

[A]

That is the assumption I should make. And I wish I were a better person. My. What I really think is she hears it and she's like, oh, my God, I can't wait to tell everyone. I think that's what really.

[C]

That's how my mom says it. I feel like, too.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, your mom's just not doing it, right. I think your mom's not doing it to you. If you ask Kristen right now, her mom does the same thing. Like, half the calls her about people she's never heard of that have a sickness. It's a bizarre activity. If I just called you like, hey, did you hear a guy in Bangladesh lost his arm today?

[B]

It's like, I would be like, I'd be like, oh my God. Like I would hear that and say like that's horrible. And I would think that you were telling me because you thought it was horrible and you wanted to share.

[A]

My mom thinks it's horrible.

[B]

Yeah, for sure.

[A]

But she, I think she's also so horny to spread all the information as quickly. Quickly as she can.

[B]

Okay. Speaking as the only woman in this room, I think it's more like this makes me feel unsettled and like I need to, I need to share that feeling. So I don't feel so alone in this. Unsettled.

[A]

I think there's probably a great evolutionary explanation. I think it was probably women's job in whatever capacity to be monitoring the health of everyone and reporting us it and pooling resources. And I think that was the domain.

[B]

Yeah. But that's how I feel. If I hear something horrible happened, I'm like, I do want to tell people, but it's not like cuz guys have a story. It's like this horrible. It's horrible. Things happen.

[A]

It's hard for me setting. And you want to share in that.

[B]

Yeah. And I want. I guess I kind of am looking for like comfort and that the world is. Doesn't it or I don't know, I'm unsuited.

[A]

And I think a guy's first thought is like, I'm not telling anyone that like oh, so and so's got gangrene. I think like they wouldn't want anyone to know and no one's gonna enjoy hearing that. I. I just have a completely different instinct which is almost like, don't tell anyone.

[B]

Yeah. That's weird. I mean that to me.

[A]

Yeah, it's different.

[B]

It's different, it's different. But I, I just think you could give some benefit of the doubt that it's not like, oh my God, I got a story to tell. As opposed to like, I really don't like this about life.

[A]

Okay. But let me be very specific. I'm not judgmental of that instinct because I think all the things we're supposed to do, the mechanism that motivates us to do it is a reward. I think both things are true. I think it's serving a purpose. Clearly it did historically that these moms would be spreading this information. And I think they get a dopamine hit from the sharing of it, which is how the body encourages, urges them to continue that practice. So it's like I'M not judgmental of it, but I do think there is a horniness.

[B]

I don't know that that's fair. Okay. Let's keep going. Okay. I would be curious to see how an autopsy is performed.

[A]

I have in the past been curious and I've watched one. So I would have to say I Agree. I don't ever want to see one again.

[B]

Agree. Or strongly.

[A]

Just Agree.

[B]

I would be interested in attending or watching a video of an exorcism.

[A]

Disagree.

[B]

If I lived in ancient Rome, I would be interested in attending a gladiator pictorial fight.

[A]

Strongly agree.

[B]

I would be interested in watching a documentary on motives behind real murders.

[A]

Agree.

[B]

I am interested in seeing how limb amputation works.

[A]

What's the middle one on that one?

[B]

There's Somewhat. Disagree. Disagree. Strongly agree. Somewhat agree. Agree. Strongly.

[A]

Somewhat agree.

[B]

Okay. I find the occult interesting.

[A]

Agree.

[B]

If I saw a street fight break out and knew I could not intervene, I would try to watch it.

[A]

Yeah. Strongly agree.

[B]

My favorite part of a crime show is learning about why the killer did what he did.

[A]

Yeah. Agree.

[B]

I would like to see how bodies are prepared for funerals.

[A]

Agree.

[B]

A documentary on voodoo would interest me.

[A]

Disagree.

[B]

I would be curious enough to watch a duel if I lived in the Wild West.

[A]

Yeah. Strongly agree.

[B]

I would be interested in watching an interview with an imprisoned serial killer talking about his crimes.

[A]

Agree.

[B]

I think the preservation of bodies like in taxidermy or mummification is interesting.

[A]

Agree.

[B]

I am curious how a Ouija board works.

[A]

Strongly disagree.

[B]

I prefer violent movies and TV shows to be uncensored.

[A]

Agree.

[B]

Being a criminal profiler who studies the personality of murderers would be an interesting job.

[A]

The middle one.

[B]

Somewhat.

[A]

Yeah. Somewhat. Somewhat. Agree.

[B]

Okay. I am curious what the deadliest toxin in the world would do to the body.

[A]

Agree.

[B]

I think witchcraft would be an interesting topic to learn about.

[A]

Disagree.

[B]

I am curious why What a bottle looked like.

[A]

I already know.

[B]

I'm curious what a battle looked like in the Middle Ages.

[A]

Oh. Strongly agree.

[B]

I'm curious about the minds of violent people.

[A]

Agree.

[B]

Okay. Here are your scores. One is the minimum score and six is the maximum score.

[A]

4.7.

[B]

Well, it's multiple things. So your overall morbid Curiosity score is 4.42.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Okay. Your paranormal score. 2.33.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Your minds of dangerous people score. 4.83. Your body violation, bodily injury score. 4.83. Your violence score, 5.67.

[A]

Wish I would have got six.

[B]

Ah.

Then I think you cheated.

[A]

I didn't cheat. I'm just kidding.

[B]

I know. I know you like violence.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All right, well, that's cool. So you're.

[A]

Let me ask you something, though. When you say you like violence, are you turning your nose up to it? Compared to serial killer interest?

[B]

No.

[A]

Do you think some are worse than others?

[B]

Well, I think. I don't think worse are better.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I think they're different, though.

[A]

Obviously they're modeling out different.

[B]

Yeah, they're modeling out different things.

[A]

Fears. Yeah. So I have a huge fear of being in a physical, violent situation with another man. So I'm always going to be interested.

[B]

But you're also. You're. You have a fear of it, but you're also like. You're kind of attracted to it. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Like most things, I'm afraid of the motorcycle speed.

[B]

But you've started fights.

[A]

I mean, first of all, yes. Like in junior high, just straight up started some fights. As an adult, I don't. I would say I haven't started fights. I just have such a clear category. I've seen guys walk into the bar and they want to fight. They're there to fight.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I've not ever walked in the bar because I want to fight. I walk into the bar, I see some behavior I don't like.

[B]

Right.

[A]

The sheriff in me tells me, oh, I've got to protect everyone from this energy everyone hates.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And then I end up in a fight with that person.

[B]

Yeah. And I think some people could read that as starting a fight as opposed to. Opposed to leaving.

[A]

Sure. But I would. I wouldn't abandon the people that I thought were being put out by this energy. This happened perfectly on New Year's Eve. One year, everyone was in town for a car show and we went out to Dell's, this bar that Scotty and I went and sang karaoke at all the time. It's like 1am on New Year's Eve. These guys walk in, they were at. They weren't at the bar all night. They just came in, they shoved two different guys just randomly, immediately on their way to the bar. Then one bumped into me aggressively. And I turned around and said something. And then Scotty noticed that was going on and saw he had a friend, so he kind of got by the friend and then the friend just immediately swang at Scotty. So, like, those dudes just. They rolled in. They were like gang banger dudes. They rolled in to beat someone up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And in that situation in that bar, I think, oh, Scotty and I are best suited to deal with these two people. Of all the people, people that are at this bar, the other two Guys that got shoved. Just got like shoved to the ground. Couldn't do anything about it.

[B]

But what about just like the bouncer?

[A]

There's no bouncer at. At Dell's. It's just a people. I mean, sure, by the time the police got called, two people would have been punched in the nose and they would have been gone. And. Yeah, so I've seen enough of those situations living in bars for a decade that, yeah, in those situations, I'm like, okay, well, I'll be the guy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

These two are fighting somebody in this bar.

[B]

I guess it's also the type of bar. Maybe.

[A]

Sure. It's not like a fancy, but not.

[B]

Even fancy like, I'm thinking of like my. The college bars, like, they're rough and tumble.

[A]

Uhhuh.

[B]

And no one in my group was like, fighting or looking for fights or being like, vigilant about the fights.

[A]

Yeah, there might have been more fights where I came from.

[B]

Yeah, exactly, Exactly.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Like, definitely. The bar we drank at in Detroit, there was a few fights a week.

Every Saturday night there was a fight at the bar.

[B]

Yeah, I guess that's all in part of it, right? Like, your bars are ones where there are fights. Those are the ones you're picking for.

[A]

Sure. We're all. We're all victims of our childhood. So. So it's like, it's all. Yeah. The bars I drank at, probably the vast majority of people at them, their parents were divorced. They grew up like I did. That's why, for whatever reason, that bar appealed to them.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's the kind of bar they got taken to as a kid. Like, it all makes sense. It's just like, yeah, we are all similar and we find each other and then the people who went to country clubs, they're at a country club drinking. And those people don't fight at the country club.

[B]

I doubt it. Well, they have different kinds of fights, I guess.

[A]

Sure. And I'd rather just throw down than the. Yeah, other version.

[B]

Yeah, well, four point something I already forgot.

[A]

5.6 violence.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right, all right.

[B]

Love you.

[A]

Love you.

Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry plus in the Wondry app or on Apple podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short [e-mail] survey.

[D]

Hey there, armchairies. Guess what? It's Mel Robbins. I'm popping in here, taking out my own ad. Holy cow. Dad. Dax, Monica, and I. I don't want this conversation to end. And I'm so glad you're here with us. And the other thing. I can't believe Dax loves the Let Them theory. He can't stop talking about it. I hope you're loving listening as much as I love having you here. And I also know since you love listening to Armchair Expert, you know who you're going to love listening to? The Let Them Theory audiobook. And guess who reads it?

[B]

Me.

[D]

And even if you've read the book, guess what? The audiobook is different. I tell different stories. I. I riff. I cry. You're gonna love it. Cause it's gonna feel like I'm right there next to you. We're in this together as we learn to stop controlling other people. So thanks again for listening to this episode of Armchair Expert. And check out the audiobook version of the Let Them Theory read by yours truly, available now on Audible. You can even try it out for free with an Audible trial. Download the Audible app today.