David Sussillo (on foster care and neuroscience)

Summary

Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard: David Sussillo (on Foster Care and Neuroscience)
Release Date: March 25, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this deeply personal and intellectually rich episode, Dax Shepard and Lily Padman welcome neuroscientist, technologist, and memoirist David Sussillo. Through candid conversation, Sussillo shares his remarkable journey from a tumultuous childhood marked by addiction, foster care, and poverty to an influential career in neuroscience and artificial intelligence. Touching on themes previously explored in Armchair Expert’s foster care episodes, the discussion weaves personal trauma, resilience, brain development, and the evolution of AI, connecting intimate lived experience with the frontiers of scientific understanding.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. ​Personal History and Foster Care

Parallels with Previous Foster Care Episodes

• Sussillo relates strongly to Claudia Rao’s foster care story, feeling “so seen” by discussions that reveal how poverty and neglect are often conflated in child welfare systems.

  “Poverty looks a lot like neglect. Half the kids, by her account, are in there, probably when they’re just poor.” — Dax Shepard (03:27)

Early Family Life & Trauma

• Both parents struggled with substance abuse; the father addicted to heroin by age 15, the mother suffering from severe depression and addiction.
• Sussillo recounts harrowing early experiences, including his father’s suicide attempt, and describes a childhood mired in instability and extreme poverty.

  “By the time I’m coming online, I only know this in hindsight. They’re using drugs regularly… If there’s heroin, they’re taking it. If there’s painkillers, they’re taking them. They were just legit addicts.” — David Sussillo (09:02)

Neglect and Foster Care System Experience

• After a failed attempt by his mother to stabilize the family, Sussillo and his sister are placed in the Albuquerque Christian Children’s Home (ACCH), a group home system.
• Sussillo addresses feelings of abandonment by his grandparents’ decision not to take in him or his sister, a theme he threads through reflections on generational resilience and fatigue.

  “If there are villains in that book, it’s hard not to point at them.” — David Sussillo (17:19)

2. Childhood Coping, Friendship & Early Passions

Finding Joy and Coping in Hardship (13:33)

• Finding a best friend (Shiloh) and video games as escape and solace becomes a recurring survival theme:

  “Surely making a best friend when I’m at such a young and shapeable age was one of the major things in my life to happen to me.” — David Sussillo (13:09)
  “Video games became this escape from all the things that were happening in my life.” — David Sussillo (14:10)

Neglect and Adaptation

• Sussillo describes “pure, perfect childhood” periods disrupted by his mother’s ongoing struggles, multiple moves, and ultimately, years spent in residential group homes.
• He draws a vivid analogy about pervasive loss:

  “Try to remember the feeling of being lost at the mall as a kid… Now imagine that goes on for two days… two weeks, two years.” — Dax Shepard (20:20)

Survival Strategies (26:01)

• Sussillo touches on how children in adverse circumstances develop specific identities and coping mechanisms (e.g., Sussillo as the “smart kid”; others as the “tough kid” or the “pretty girl”).

3. Loss, Catastrophe, and Emotional Consequences

Mother’s Death and Emotional Fallout

• Sussillo’s mother dies when he’s 12, deepening the sense of orphanhood and isolation (“orphaned by the living”).

  “Turns out I really loved my mother and so she dies. Like, where’s my emotional space at this point? I have no way of relating to this. So I basically start having minor panic attacks. I just don’t even know what’s going on.” — David Sussillo (27:46)

Sister’s Struggles

• His sister’s emotional dysregulation and behavioral issues are explored, reflecting long-term consequences of early neglect and familial instability.

4. Escape through Education & the Gift of Academic Identity

Academic Opportunities as Salvation (26:22)

• Sussillo is recognized as gifted, which provides critical self-esteem and a future-facing “shield”—his “Patronus.”

  “From that moment on, I was gonna make it no matter what, come hell, come high water… having a future or thinking about what the future could mean for you is a big differentiation in some of the kids.” — David Sussillo (22:32)

Transition to Family

• After his mother’s death, extended family steps in. His aunt and uncle take him in, while his sister is sent to boarding school—a “Sophie’s Choice” born of limited capacity and differentiated needs.

5. Institutional Living: Group Homes and Hershey School

Living at Milton Hershey School

• Sussillo details the experience of attending a lavishly endowed, well-intentioned but ultimately harsh and turbulent group home/school, where he faces violence, control, and bullying.

  “It was not a great place. I checked out… Disassociation is a big word. I would say I was just medicating.” — David Sussillo (41:25)

6. Relentless Forward Motion: Higher Education and Setbacks

College Aspirations & Realities

• Sussillo’s disillusionment with elite academic processes—discovering as a first-generation college student that he was unprepared for standardized testing and application nuances.
• He attends Carnegie Mellon (not MIT as he’d aspired) and flourishes, but also must confront the psychological legacy of “survival through self-mythologizing.”

  “There’s a fine line between self-love and narcissism. Right. And so I get to Carnegie Mellon and I’m like, wait a minute, there’s a lot of very smart kids.” — David Sussillo (49:37)

Early Career, Mental Health Crisis, and Recovery

• After burning out during a startup, Sussillo endures crushing isolation, panic attacks, and a brief episode of suicidal ideation—only finding relief through therapy, exercise, and renewed family connection.

  “I immediately realized I have a problem. I’m fucking smart. I’m going to take this seriously.” — David Sussillo (59:18)
  “I start going to therapy on a weekly basis. That’s very, very helpful… between exercise and this therapy and being closer to family, I start to pull myself out of a very, very dark place.” — David Sussillo (66:15)

7. Professional Journey: Neuroscience, Academia, and AI

Transition to Neuroscience (67:23)

• Sussillo describes his draw to computational neuroscience, seeking to unify technical skills and a desire to help others.
• Works with Larry Abbott at Columbia, entering the field just as AI’s “deep learning” revolution is beginning.

Career at the Forefront of AI

• Early work at Google Brain and Meta Reality Labs; describes technological innovations (e.g., gesture-controlled devices, AI research) as applied neuroscience.

  “At Google Brain, this was like the early skunk works of the neural networks, deep learning, and now it’s called AI.” — David Sussillo (05:54)
  “Neural networks… Because we started stacking these networks together, it became known as deep learning… Now, coming finally back to your question, I wanted to apply all of these neural networks approaches to understand actually how brains work.” — David Sussillo (73:44)

Explaining Neural Networks and Recurrent Systems

• Explains how artificial neural networks model aspects of brain function, focusing on feedback (“recurrent”) systems as crucial to behavior and motor control (72:00 – 73:44).

Learning from AI: The Mirror Effect

• Sussillo and Dax discuss the current state of AI, its limitations, and the paradox of using these systems to interrogate both artificial and human cognition.

  “Modern AI… It turns out doing this makes these things intelligent in some way. So… the origins of AI really go back to studying the brain… Where are we today? It’s exactly what you said. It’s the opposite. I’m a huge proponent of using artificial intelligence for science discovery, and it’s much broader than neuroscience. My particular love is neuroscience.” — David Sussillo (74:41 – 75:52)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Neglect and Institutional Care:

  “How do you even write about neglect? Because it’s all the things that aren’t happening. It’s all the things that didn’t happen that you don’t just fill 10 pages with.” — David Sussillo (20:56)

• On the Emotional Impact of Impermanence:

  “The house parents come and go because the job is impossible… It’s just built for failure.” — David Sussillo (24:15 – 24:17)

• On Surviving through Academic Identity:

  “It’s like in Harry Potter, the Patronus spell. I had like a shield I did a future guide. A sense of self pride, dare I say, self love about this thing.” — David Sussillo (22:31)

• On AI’s Limits and Potential:

  “So the example that this article I read was is that they trained an AI model on all of the known scientific literature of the 1300s, and then they asked the AI, do we revolve around the sun, or does the sun revolve around the planet?... But it can’t be Galileo.” — Dax Shepard (76:06)
  “I do think they’re thinking… These things are thinking in the reductive sense of manipulating language for the purposes of reasoning and conceptualizing… but there’s nothing behind the machine.” — David Sussillo (77:05)

• On Humility and the Continuing Journey:

  “You nailed it. This is exactly right. I’m in Boston. I’m done. I did the thing. I know I had four classes left, but in my mind I’ve achieved the goal. And it turns out that it was the having the goal was the solution. So now I just have lots of goals.” — David Sussillo (61:13)

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Important Timestamps

• Opening and Connection to Foster Care Theme: 00:00 – 04:00
• Sussillo’s Childhood, Family Addiction: 09:00 – 12:05
• Best Friend Shiloh & Power of Joy: 12:33 – 14:10
• Placement in ACCH Group Home: 16:27 – 20:29
• Loss, Mother’s Death, and Aftermath: 27:27 – 29:28
• Milton Hershey School: 38:34 – 45:02
• College, First Steps to Recovery: 45:10 – 61:13
• Finding Therapy, Exercise and Healing: 65:53 – 67:23
• Entry into Neuroscience and AI: 67:23 – 73:44
• Explanation of Neural Networks and AI Reflection: 73:44 – 79:51
• On AI’s Creative Limits and Future: 76:06 – 83:22

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Tone & Atmosphere

• Language & Style: Open, reflective, and intellectually curious; balances personal vulnerability with technical depth.
• Atmosphere: Candid mix of humor and gravity. Dax’s characteristic empathy and curiosity give space to Sussillo’s hard-earned wisdom, with Lily providing attentive backup and occasional comic relief.

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Conclusion & Recommendation

This episode offers a rare intersection: an unflinching account of trauma, survival, and loss, coupled with insights at the edge of science. Anyone interested in how adverse childhoods can shape (but not limit) destinies, or in how mind and machine interplay, will find Sussillo’s story deeply affecting and Dax’s interview masterful in its blend of warmth, challenge, and wonder.

“Thank you for sharing your story. I think it’s obviously so important.” — Dax Shepard (84:25)

Further Reading:
David Sussillo’s memoir — Emergence: A Memoir of Boyhood, Computation and the Mysteries of the Mind

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Transcript

[Dax Shepard]

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. Experts on Expert. I'm Dan Shepard. I'm joined by Lily Padman.

[Lily Padman]

Hi.

[Dax Shepard]

Today we have David Cecillo. He is a neuroscientist, a technologist and an author. But don't let that sway you. This isn't a tech heavy.

[Lily Padman]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

This is a very personal story.

[Lily Padman]

Correct. And a very moving one.

[Dax Shepard]

Incredibly moving one about really growing up in a lot of public housing or. Yeah, boy homes and Homes. Homes. Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

It's very connected to the episode we had on foster care.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Lily Padman]

He mentions that a lot. He felt very seen by that episode. And this is kind of like that episode. A personal story.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. Mixed with. Turning out to be a neuroscientist.

[Lily Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

He has a book out. It's a memoir. It's called Emergence A Memoir of Boyhood Computation and the Mystery of Mind. It's quite an incredible story. I was riveted. It's very moving and touching. Please enjoy David Cecillo this episode of Armchair Expert is Presented by Apple TV, the new US home of Formula 1. Starting March 7, you can watch complete all access live coverage of every Grand Prix, including practice, qualifying and sprints, all in one place. Watch every race live only on Apple tv. We are supported by quints. Your wardrobe should make getting dressed effortless. But building a thoughtful wardrobe can feel impossible, especially when quality outfits cost an arm and a leg. That's the beauty of quints. Their everyday essentials mix well from season to season and last. I've been building my collection with their pieces and it's transformed how I get dressed every day. Clothing that's rated between 4.5 and 5 stars by thousands of people. Polos, sweaters, pants and shorts made of premium materials like Mongolian cashmere and European linen without the luxury price tag.

[Lily Padman]

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[Dax Shepard]

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[Lily Padman]

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[David Cecillo]

I just want to say I watched that episode with Claudia Ra.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, the foster.

[David Cecillo]

Yeah, with the foster kid. What a great episode.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm so glad you watched that because that's going to come up.

[David Cecillo]

I felt so seen. I was like, you go, girl. Oh, God. No one had really just all put it in one place. I was like, wow. So props to you.

[Lily Padman]

Thank you. No, props to her. She is incredible. And we're so happy that we were helpful in telling that story.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Her two kind of novel things for me that blew my mind is one that poverty looks a lot like neglect. Half the kids, by her account, are in there, probably when they're just poor. So that's really troubling.

[David Cecillo]

That's really troubling. I agree.

[Dax Shepard]

And then what we know. Yeah. About brain development and knowing we can't get the result we need with this system.

[David Cecillo]

Just acknowledging that it's a great framing. It's simple, too. It's a very straightforward thing to say. This is pathological because xyz.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

It almost can't get a different outcome. And if you do, it's gonna be an anomaly.

[David Cecillo]

That's right. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I. E. You. So, David, where do you live normally?

[David Cecillo]

I live in the Bay Area. I live right near Stanford University.

[Dax Shepard]

How do you like it up there? How many years have you been there?

[David Cecillo]

I've been there since 2010. I moved out for postdoc at Stanford University. My wife and I had been in New York City and Manhattan for the last 10 or 12 years, and she really didn't want to go, shh, shh, shh. But we went out and you'd have to drag me kicking and screaming.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, you love it.

[David Cecillo]

Yeah. First off, it's Calif. But, you know, it's a place that's filled with innovation, filled with smart people. You don't have to apologize to be a nerd. It's multicultural in its own sort of technical way. So I really like it there.

[Dax Shepard]

So you and I are both children of 1975.

[David Cecillo]

I saw that. Yes, that's right.

[Dax Shepard]

What month?

[David Cecillo]

March 26th. You precede me by two and a half years.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm your elder and I expect to be treated as such. You beat me on the height.

[David Cecillo]

How have you done with turning 50? I have to admit, it hasn't been great for me, psychologically.

[Dax Shepard]

Tell me.

[David Cecillo]

Well, just feeling like you see the end. I want to be measured here because I'm not 70. But for all of that, you know, the fantasy you live in about life going on forever. You can't have that at 50.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

There's something really, really troubling about knowing in the best case scenario, which I doubt, I'll make it to 100 or more than half of it.

[David Cecillo]

That's right.

[Dax Shepard]

That's a bummer. You were an adjunct professor. You're still an adjunct.

[David Cecillo]

I'm still an adjunct professor. What is an adjunct professor? An adjunct professor just means you're affiliated with the university. It's a credential. So in my case, there's a dean or even a provost that had to actually sign off on it, but you're not attending tenure line professor. So professors in today's academic world are largely leading research groups based off of money they get from the government through grants, and also through private foundations. And so as an adjunct, I cannot lead those. I can be on them and I can participate, and that's largely what I do. Everyone thinks I teach. I don't teach. I lead research.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so you'll join an existing grant.

[David Cecillo]

That's right.

[Dax Shepard]

And then your professional work was Google Brain and is now meta.

[David Cecillo]

That's right. At Google Brain, this was like the early skunk works of the neural networks, deep learning, and now it's called AI. Maybe we'll get into some of that. I'm not sure where you want to take the conversation, but that was for about six years. And then I joined Meta Reality Labs. You've seen these classes that they have. The new version has this wristband, and that wristband reads out your muscle signals. It's basically like controlling a device just by gesturing.

[Lily Padman]

Or like writing so you can text with your fingers.

[David Cecillo]

Exactly.

[Lily Padman]

Whoa, that's wild.

[Dax Shepard]

That doesn't seem on prima facie that hard in that we know what signals are gonna get sent to the messages to move the hands in some. Conceptually, it doesn't seem that abstract.

[David Cecillo]

Conceptually, if the signals are there, you can machine learn them and pull it out. There are reasons it's hard, but first, let me meet you on the conceptually, no, it's not like doing brain machine interfaces where you have no idea what's going on.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. Because it's very like end of river.

[David Cecillo]

Exactly right. It is true that your motor cortex projects to your spine, the spine projects to your wrist. The muscle is driven by electricity when you move, and that's an aggregate signal of neurons. Those are the cells in your brain that fire electrically and cause you to be you. But to meet your point, what's coming down the line here is not your pancakes that you had for breakfast. It's the stuff that you do to move your hand.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[David Cecillo]

And so in that sense, it's an applied problem.

[Dax Shepard]

The body has simplified it quite a bit by the time we get to the wrist.

[David Cecillo]

That's right. The challenges of it are how do you get something to work on every single person when they put it on the first time? That's a really hard application problem because

[Dax Shepard]

it has been determined that people won't have the tolerance to let it learn from it for some period. The consumer doesn't want a learning phase.

[David Cecillo]

Yeah. We call that personalization. So we so far have not gone down that road. We just have a general model. You put it on and it works. And what that means is you have to collect quite a bit of data. We wrote a paper actually published in Nature about some of this work. And so what we learned was that if you get a bunch of people come in and you have them do the gestures and you machine learn the hell out of it, then with a lot of effort and clever engineering, you can make it work.

[Dax Shepard]

To what probability, like what percentage would

[David Cecillo]

you say it's accurate for the things that we've released? It's very, very accurate.

[Dax Shepard]

You know, the 99 something.

[David Cecillo]

I don't actually know what the numbers are, but they're very high. Because you want to have something out there that's quality.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Ye.

[Lily Padman]

When is this getting released?

[David Cecillo]

It is released.

[Lily Padman]

What?

[David Cecillo]

It was released in the fall. So the Ray Ban metas, the glasses that have been around a while and the meta Ray Ban displays, they actually have a little display in there. Right. So you control that with a wristband that comes with it. I think it's sold out now, but I think it's out there.

[Dax Shepard]

You've landed in all these places and it's quite improbable. And your story is heartbreaking and hopeful and wonderful. And I enjoyed it so much when I was listening. Do you say it verbally? You were on some kind of a Zoom in 2022?

[David Cecillo]

That's right, yeah. Growing up in science lecture professor at Weiji Ma started this. And so lots of people are out there telling their stories about how they got into science. And I was invited to do one of them, but.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so mom and dad are both addicts.

[David Cecillo]

Yes, that's right.

[Dax Shepard]

So maybe I guess we start with you at probably five at that point. They're still married. You guys live in Albuquerque, So my

[David Cecillo]

parents were both Christian hippies. They may have actually lived on like a Christian commune.

[Dax Shepard]

They took the only fun part out. Free Love, I guess.

[David Cecillo]

That's right.

[Dax Shepard]

It's just dirty. All you got left is the dirt.

[David Cecillo]

That's right. By the time I'm coming online, I only know this in hindsight. They're using drugs regularly. They're crashing drugstores and stealing grab and run type of stuff. If there's heroin, they're taking it. If there's painkillers, they're taking them. They were just legit addicts.

[Dax Shepard]

In a pinch, they're making your older sister pretend she has a cough so we can get a prescription for Cody.

[David Cecillo]

That's right.

[Dax Shepard]

And is he second generation Albuquerque, your mother is?

[David Cecillo]

My mother, she was actually born in Bakersfield. She grew up in Albuquerque.

[Dax Shepard]

Her parents, your grandparents, lived there.

[David Cecillo]

My father is from Brooklyn. There's definitely tragedy on his side of the family. My grandfather, I think he was a captain in the Navy, and he died in a plane accident over Phoenix in the 50s. My grandfather on my father's side and my grandmother, these were serious practicing Catholics. So they had a family of five kids. Very serious. He passes away, and now my grandmother is left with five kids aged seven through three months. Woof. Right. Holy moly. So she hauls back to where she's from, Bay Ridge, Brooklyn. And that's where my aunts and uncles and my father grew up. Father, the middle child, bigger pain. So basically what happened is the two oldest were sort of saddled with, hey, you need to help me raise this family. And the two youngest were very young. And so my father, as middle kids do, fell through the cracks.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[David Cecillo]

So, you know, my father was 100% messing around with heroin by the age of 13. I am certain, based on talking to my aunts and uncles, he was addicted to heroin at 15. It's really early. Right. And so I grew up in the. This war on drugs. We can talk about that from a political point of view. But it succeeded in helping me understand that there are places and things you don't want to go and things you don't want to do.

[Lily Padman]

Yes.

[David Cecillo]

And I don't know if my father had access to that information. And so he got busted with an ounce of marijuana at 17. They told him to go to juvie. He said, screw that, I'm out. And he split to New Mexico, never to return.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so he was absconding from justice.

[David Cecillo]

That's right.

[Dax Shepard]

When you're five, there's an incident.

[David Cecillo]

Yes. So briefly, with my mother. My mother's story is a mystery. I don't know why she ended up as she did. The one story I have Came from my sister was that they used to have a jar of pills at school. Keep in mind, this is the 60s. I don't mean free love by that. I mean a sense of ignorance about how powerful pharmaceutical drugs are. They'd just have a jar, and they would go, take them out of the jar.

[Lily Padman]

Jesus.

[David Cecillo]

That. Right. That's crazy. So to the degree that that story is true, you can point at something, but largely speaking, I don't know why my mother ended up with the problems that she had. By the time I'm five, my father already tried to kill himself. He gets really, really high, and he threatens to set the place on fire.

[Dax Shepard]

The apartment on fire breaks up, bottles bleeding out. Cops have to come to ambulance class.

[Lily Padman]

Do you remember it?

[David Cecillo]

I don't remember it well, but I have vague memories of it.

[Lily Padman]

And you have an older sister and

[David Cecillo]

I have an older sister.

[Lily Padman]

She probably remembers more.

[David Cecillo]

Yeah, exactly. So what happened there is the whole thing fell apart because my father is like, I'm gonna burn the place down. My mother is like, we're out. And so that resulted in a divorce. So I ended up living alone with my mother near my grandparents for that year. And I never really lived with my father again, although he would come in and out of my life here and there.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. Mom decides she's gonna start the nursing program up in Santa Fe, and then you guys up and move to Santa Fe. You're in extreme poverty at this point.

[David Cecillo]

The way I would say it is we weren't like Albania in the 60s. Poor. But for the United States, we were poor on a level that many people have a hard time relating to, where, like, there's a constant gnawing, corrosive worry about making ends meet, about eating.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. All day consumed by this anxiety.

[David Cecillo]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

That's buddy Shiloh, who you meet. They don't have water at home.

[David Cecillo]

Right. So I meet my buddy Shiloh, who is, like, immediately my best friend in the book, very briefly, I talk about my experiences in Santa Fe at some length because it was this period of just pure, perfect childhood. I had one year of childhood. Right. And that was this year when I'm in second grade, and I have this buddy Shiloh. He's my best friend. You can look at, like, all the things that happen to me. Dave, what are the interventions? It's a complicated question, but surely making a best friend when I'm at such a young and shapeable age was one of the major things in my life to happen to me. So, you know, we're out there just cutting up and just being crazy.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, what I would argue, because I'm a big proponent of best friendship, because I think when you have that buddy and things are tough, the way that you can elicit joy and ride joy and how much that's a needed medicine, it's really quintessential to. And you think he really learned to wring joy out of things in a very specific way.

[David Cecillo]

Yeah, I agree with that.

[Dax Shepard]

And your guys was video games.

[David Cecillo]

Yeah, we were obsessed with video games. So my age here is really relevant. I'm born in 75, so I'm five years old when Pac man is coming out.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, yeah.

[David Cecillo]

Which means I'm seven years old, roughly speaking, when Ms. Pac man is coming out. Mario Bros. Donkey Kong. All these absolute gem video games. We were poor, we couldn't afford them. But, you know, we'd scrounge up quarters and try to get quarters. Just do crazy things. But we were obsessed with video games. And as I talk about in the book, video games became this escape from all the things that were happening in my life, you know, And I could just always just space out and go. Try to drum up a quarter to go play a video game.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Have you thought about what the appeal is? I know I'm sure you have a lot of connection between the technical aspect, which you became enthralled with your whole life, but just the notion that in this little box, the rules were the same all the time.

[David Cecillo]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

They were immovable. I know the rules. And then if I'm clever enough, I can outsmart this. It's very satisfying in a world of a lot of variables.

[David Cecillo]

I totally agree with that. When you're seven, you're not thinking that.

[Dax Shepard]

Right, Right.

[David Cecillo]

But it is still a thing. And so just to list it off very quickly, deep concentration, nothing else exists. You're right here for as long as you can make that quarter last. The fun of it, the challenge, Ecstasy through sensory overload. You know, I'm a researcher. Right. Like, I actually think, when did I start researching how to play video games better, how to make a quarter last longer? That whole spectrum is how I think about it now. When I was doing those things as a kid.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

Was your mom still struggling during this whole time with drugs?

[David Cecillo]

Yes, because of the divorce. She went to try to get a nursing degree and really pull herself together. She really gave it a shot. And, you know, the whole thing was sort of financed at a very low level by my grandparents. She went there and it started off all right. It didn't really go very well. You Know, honestly, she met Shiloh's mother and they would just go get high together. It just kind of fell apart.

[Dax Shepard]

You moved back to Albuquerque, though, at

[David Cecillo]

7 or just before third grade. So we moved back to Albuquerque. We moved to a neighborhood that is formerly on the map called La Mesa. In the colloquial, like, rebranding, it's the international district. And everybody in Albuquerque calls it the war zone.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, boy.

[David Cecillo]

We're talking about a very, very bad neighborhood. I don't even have the words. It's dangerous. People are murdered there. In fairness to Albuquerque, it's one of those large, spread out towns where it just depends on where you live.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. It's also got wonderful, incredible areas.

[David Cecillo]

I'm not in one of those wonderful, incredible areas. And so felt unsafe, and it was unsafe. And during that time, my mother's mental health was really falling apart. Turns out she was really suffering from severe depression. It's so bad she doesn't even enroll us for school. So we get these teachers going, oh, no, you know, you gotta enroll your kids in school. And so we ended up going to school. And that fall we had somebody come take care of us. I think her name was Karen. Why isn't my mother here? She's taking a break.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, boy.

[David Cecillo]

Yeah. So what happened was I was not used to Karen's care, which was frankly excellent. And like, I didn't know how to handle that.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah,

[David Cecillo]

I didn't know how to handle it. So I'm getting into trouble. For me, neglect is the thing here. I legitimately believe both my parents loved me and my sister. These people are serious drug users, and that comes with major spectrum of problems. I decide to run away after getting in trouble. I had no plans of actually running away. I was just trying to piss this woman off, right? But she freaks out and she calls my grandparents. And the next thing you know, both my sister and I, Esther, are in a car, our clothing in a trash bag, going to the Albuquerque Christian Children's Home.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, boy.

[Dax Shepard]

Now. So I had a question here. What is your judgment of your grandparents? When I read that they were called, and their solution, or their combined thought was, well, let's get them in this home. And they lived in Albuquerque instead of

[Lily Padman]

taking you guys in.

[David Cecillo]

Yeah, I know it's hard not to look at their behavior as, at the very least, negligent.

[Lily Padman]

Abandonment.

[David Cecillo]

Abandonment. And if there are villains in that book, it's hard not to point at them.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And then also maybe it explains a bit of why mom had problems. If that's the Vibe that existed at that point.

[David Cecillo]

That's right. The only thing I could say is, when you're retirees, I've shared this book now with a number of early readers. Right. And like to a person, any woman of grandmotherly age has said, fuck that, I would have taken you in.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah. It's hard to swallow.

[David Cecillo]

So there's that.

[Dax Shepard]

That is my knee jerk. And I can't imagine my children would have children. And I would say, yeah, send them. Also. I have means also. I've not been dealing with a troubled child for 11 years, which they probably were. So I don't know. Their fatigue and their capacity. Yeah. How overwhelmed they felt with just the first kid. And now this kid has got two other kids.

[David Cecillo]

It's hard to know where their mind state was at.

[Lily Padman]

So was Karen a foster.

[David Cecillo]

Karen was just a friend. A friend of my mother who came

[Dax Shepard]

to visit and did the best she could. But I think David is honest. Admirably so. You were also a shithead. You never had rules or anything.

[David Cecillo]

You were a feral kid. I was feral. Two things can be true. I felt like I was good at heart and yet, behaviorally speaking, a total piece of shit.

[Lily Padman]

Well, I mean, your context, how could you not be?

[David Cecillo]

One of the things I resonated in the conversation with Claudia Rao was these kids. I include myself here. Right. Maybe not to the same degree as some of the people she was talking about. They're coming with major, major problems.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. Yeah. They're not the easy kids to deal with.

[David Cecillo]

No. But to say it that way isn't giving it the truth. When people sign up to do foster care, they're not signing up to like have their daily lives induced with constant non stop stress for 10 years. It's just very hard. And so when I try to forgive my grandparents, it's in that light.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah. That it's a huge undertaking.

[Dax Shepard]

Now, I don't know if you related at all to this, but I also think at a very young age, as social primates, we are justice machines. We look around and why did they get that and I didn't get this, that is how the whole system functions is you're monitoring who's getting what. And my status entitles me to this. And so I think even when you're young and you're looking around like some kids have all this shit and I don't. I think you feel deputized to get what's yours.

[David Cecillo]

Yeah. So I was not blessed with that thing. And I should say I was not cursed with that thing.

[Dax Shepard]

Cursed, yeah.

[David Cecillo]

Yeah. Because I just had my head down. I was just too young and dumb or too into the video games or whatever it is that little boys of eight years old are. My sister, especially as we got a little bit older into middle school. We were going to a public middle school, and she was, look at these girls. And way before the word privilege became this weird, she was like, these girls are privileged. They have these things. I want to be a pretty girl. I want to have these things. And so for her, this constant comparison, this justice machine thing, I think was a huge problem.

[Lily Padman]

I mean, middle school is hard enough

[Dax Shepard]

if you've got all the.

[Lily Padman]

If you have everything, like, ugh.

[Dax Shepard]

So, yeah, you go to this Christian home, you make an incredible analogy. Try to remember the feeling of being lost at the mall as a kid.

[David Cecillo]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And if that went on for an hour, how absolutely dysregulating and uncomfortable that was. Now imagine that goes on for two days.

[David Cecillo]

That's right.

[Dax Shepard]

And imagine that goes on for a week. In two weeks, in two years. And you were there for five years.

[David Cecillo]

I was there for five years.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, man, David, I'm so sorry. That's fucking rough to feel.

[Lily Padman]

Loss. I mean, that's a great word for you.

[Dax Shepard]

Completely lonely and scared and who's coming.

[David Cecillo]

How do you even write about neglect? Because it's all the things that aren't happening. It's all the things that didn't happen that you don't just fill 10 pages with. And then I stared at the wall, and then I stared at the wall again. Right. So what happens is you deal. Right. And part of that is you work within the little social system that you have there, which is you make friends if you can figure out what the house parents are all about. Right. Part of it is your emotions begin to change in ways that even an adult, I don't think would fully understand what was happening to them. The other thing that's hard to relate to is you're a child, so you don't know what's happening.

[Dax Shepard]

You have zero say in any of this. You can't construct a plan that's gonna get you out of this.

[David Cecillo]

No, but we would, though. I ended up meeting a kid named Omar, a few years older than me. Mexican American kid.

[Dax Shepard]

He was Miguel at one point.

[David Cecillo]

Yeah. So I got his permission. Oh.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay.

[David Cecillo]

Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, Omar is from downtown Albuquerque, also a very bad neighborhood. As an adult, he, you know, I was just a scared 12 year old, and I was doing the things that I needed to do to survive. But the perception That I had of him was that this like fucking gangster who would literally kick the shit out of me. And happened many times, but through all of that we became friends. Speaking of being powerless, or how do you think you can get out of it? We would think about this. At this point, he's probably 13, I'm 10. I really planned my escape at 10 years old. We would just sit down. Well, you know, Dave, smart kid. Maybe you could go to college. I'm like, college? Oh, you know, what's college? You can get money for college. The funny thing about the ACCH or volunteer is people do it for a short amount of time. So for about a month we had this karate instructor come and teach us a few moves of karate. He went to college on the GI Bill.

[Dax Shepard]

That karate instructor had.

[David Cecillo]

That karate instructor had. Yeah, you can get scholarships is the upshot. And so from that moment on, the way I would describe it is. It's like in Harry Potter, the Patronus spell. I had like a shield I did a future guide. A sense of self pride, dare I say, self love about this thing. My intelligence. From that moment on, I was gonna make it no matter what, come hell, come high water. You know, this idea of like having a future or of thinking about what the future could mean for you, I think is a big differentiation in some of the kids. This came up in that other interview.

[Dax Shepard]

The frontal lobe.

[David Cecillo]

Yes, this is exactly right.

[Dax Shepard]

Like some inability to model the future seems to be the outcome. Why would you. It gets atrophied. Why model out the future? Nothing's gonna happen. I'm gonna sit in this fucking Christian home for the next seven years. I'm not planning whether I start racing BMX or I try to do this.

[David Cecillo]

That's right. Just a quick caveat about the acch. And also it goes the same way for Milton Hershey School, which I was in, in high school. These institutions, if you read my story, they don't come off particularly well. But these are basically practicing Christians doing very, very difficult work. I would have been on the street otherwise.

[Dax Shepard]

Self funded. Involuntarily.

[David Cecillo]

Yeah, it's just a little bit of nuance there.

[Dax Shepard]

What you need is a sense of permanence with a caregiver. There's one dude for 16 kids and one woman for 16 kids. And three houses of 16 kids and

[David Cecillo]

the house parents turnover. We thought, I don't know if it's true, but we had the idea that we would have loved to be in foster care, that we thought that was a better outcome than the situation that we were in, so 16. Kids varied depending, but a lot. And the house parents come and go because the job is impossible.

[Dax Shepard]

It's too much.

[David Cecillo]

It's too hard.

[Lily Padman]

It's just built for. For failure.

[David Cecillo]

It's just built for failure. So when I was there, maybe seven or eight different sets of house parents in five years. And so this sense of impermanence and the acch. I don't know what it's like now, but in the 80s, it was not meant to be a permanent living facility. It was meant to be a transitory care.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, mom got done resting.

[David Cecillo]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, exactly.

[David Cecillo]

But for some of us, we were there longer than the admin staff was there. Nobody knows what your situation is. Right. Like, literally nobody knows that in the second grade, you freaked out in the middle of the night because you thought some person was gonna come kill you. And then in the third grade, you were in a fight. Nobody knows any of this.

[Dax Shepard]

And I think deeper than no one knows, no one cares.

[Lily Padman]

That's the fear.

[Dax Shepard]

That's the heartbreaking part.

[David Cecillo]

The people working there care.

[Dax Shepard]

But I'm saying when they leave and you're there and no one present knows anything about your history, I think the conclusion you make as a kid is like, yeah, no one cares at all about me.

[Lily Padman]

And how is your sister faring?

[David Cecillo]

She's passed away.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, she has?

[David Cecillo]

Yeah. I'm sorry. You were asking the past tense, but. So she's since passed away? No, she's doing terribly at the time. One of the major outcomes of the kind of neglect that she and I suffered from is emotional dysregulation for me, that became anger for her. Ice are hot. She loves you or she hates you. It's very hard for her to regulate her emotions in and around other people.

[Dax Shepard]

Kind of like borderline personality type.

[David Cecillo]

Kind of like borderline personality type. Yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Terrified. Everyone's gonna leave her. Overly attracted to people immediately.

[David Cecillo]

That's right. It's all of that. I'm just not making the diagnosis.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Leave that to me. You were asked to tutor.

[David Cecillo]

I was, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And it's insane what that can do to your life trajectory.

[David Cecillo]

So basically, through school in a number of different ways. I was invited to the gifted and talented program. I was asked to be a tutor here and there. I became known as the smart kid.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[David Cecillo]

And so I sort of have this simplistic psychology that all these kids in these circumstances have their survival strategies. Omar was the tough kid. My sister Esther was like, the pretty girl, and so on and so forth and, you know, what ends up happening is you take those behaviors into adulthood and some are more or less adaptive than others.

[Lily Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Lily Padman]

Ugh.

[Dax Shepard]

You must have looked forward to going to school.

[David Cecillo]

Oh, my God, yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Right? Like that's the sanctuary.

[David Cecillo]

I was good at it. I actually enjoy knowledge. It did not come hard to me. I got a kick out of it. I got attention.

[Dax Shepard]

You had self esteem.

[Lily Padman]

Positive attention.

[David Cecillo]

Positive self esteem. And so, you know, I was one of these loudmouths who never shut up. So I'm sure my teachers really couldn't stand me, but I was personally getting a lot out of it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Again, we should add, you had behavioral issues.

[David Cecillo]

I had major behavioral issues.

[Dax Shepard]

How'd you get on with other boys?

[David Cecillo]

Well, the way that usually worked was we'd have a fight, I would lose, and then we'd either be friends or we wouldn't be friends. I was not a fight in my life that I couldn't lose.

[Dax Shepard]

And you were tall, so I gotta imagine, like, were you always tall?

[David Cecillo]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

But you weren't.

[David Cecillo]

One of the great curses of my life. I didn't start growing till I was 17. Oh, 17, wow. The math teacher in high school. He's the basketball coach and I'm a senior in high school. He's like, if I had known you were going to be this tall, I would have coached you in ninth grade.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm like, yeah, it's too late.

[David Cecillo]

Come on.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, man.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so around this time to, well, let's say seventh grade, your mom dies.

[David Cecillo]

That's right.

[Dax Shepard]

You've kind of got, even now, yet another round of some sense of permanent loneliness on your plate.

[David Cecillo]

My mother passes away. It's a huge catastrophe for. And what's interesting about that is, like, if you had asked me at that time, I'm like, I don't give a shit about my mother. She's not in my life. She hasn't been in my life for five years.

[Lily Padman]

You hadn't seen her.

[David Cecillo]

She would take us out on weekends here and there. There is a sense of connection there. It's a very thin tether, but it's a tether. And that has a couple of knock on effects. Number one is, turns out I really loved my mother and so she dies. Like, where's my emotional space at this point? I have no way of relating to this. So I basically start having minor panic attacks. I just don't even know what's going on. I have no one to talk to. Therapy would have been complet. Culturally untenable at the ACCH in the 80s. Not that they could have afforded it in the first place. I am just completely out of control.

[Dax Shepard]

You're now on an island by yourself.

[David Cecillo]

My sister and I didn't really get along. That possibility was not really there. But the only person I was talking to, though not about my mother, was Omar, my buddy and my roommate. So she passes away and it's a good thing in some sense. This is the tether. I have this phrase. It's not my phrase, but I use it. Orphaned by the living in any functional sense. My sister and I and many of the kids in the acch were orphans, except that our parents were alive.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[David Cecillo]

But functionally they were unable to take care of us or unwilling to take care of us, be it mental illness, drug addiction, incarceration, you name it. Right. So she passes away. All of a sudden, my aunt and uncles feel like they can get involved. These are my father's brothers and sisters

[Dax Shepard]

who didn't want to intervene with mom whose express goal was to have them. But now she's out of the picture.

[David Cecillo]

In hindsight, I can't help but wonder again, I'm sort of casting shade on my grandparents if the situation was reversed, if we were not kept around on the hopes of making my mother better. But one way or the other, there was a symbiosis there that's severed. And so my aunt and uncle, Elliot and Moira, they had come out a couple years earlier. Seventh grade is when my mother dies. I'm backtracking to say fourth, fifth grade. They come to check us out.

[Lily Padman]

They're like, this isn't good.

[David Cecillo]

This ain't great. An adult could easily observe our sort of intellectual and emotional stagnation. They start lobbying then over the summers for my sister and I to come out to the east coast, basically centered in and around New York City, where all of my father's siblings live. So we start doing that in the summertimes. This happens a couple of times before. Then my mother passes away. So because of this, some of my aunt and uncles, I guess all of them have. I've gotten to know Esther and I pretty well. So my mother passes away. And my uncle James, he was one of the older kids who was tapped to raise his siblings. He took responsibility seriously as an adult. He joined the Navy. He's like, I'm doing this.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, wow, right?

[Dax Shepard]

And you're already 12.

[David Cecillo]

And on top of that, he's a newlywed.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, wow.

[David Cecillo]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Tell his brand new wife, hey, so my brother.

[David Cecillo]

Exactly.

[Lily Padman]

I know, but it's also hard because I'm also like why didn't they do that sooner?

[Dax Shepard]

But the mom was, in theory, wanting.

[Lily Padman]

When you saw your mom on the weekends, was there all these promises of like, I'm gonna get you guys out of here?

[David Cecillo]

I think that stopped. My mother was very ill and I think she knew it. She was in and out of a psych ward. I came to know as an adult that she was basically under constant suicidal ideation.

[Dax Shepard]

She's probably medicated to the fucking hell.

[David Cecillo]

Oh, yeah, that's ultimately what she died from is a mix up of methadone and whatever she was on. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

[Dax Shepard]

Thank you to our presenting sponsor. As Apple tv, the new US Home of Formula One, you can now watch complete all access live coverage of every Grand Prix, including practice, qualifying and sprints, all in one place. I will be consuming all of those things, Monica.

[Lily Padman]

I know you will.

[Dax Shepard]

I kill for Friday to start watching practice one following and then on a sprint weekend. Oh, my gosh, two races. And this season brings a ton of new energy to the sport. New teams like Cadillac and Audi just joining the grid. New drivers stepping into major seats. Lando Norris, defending his first World Drivers Championship. And all eyes on Lewis Hamilton in his second season with Ferrari. And a brand new circuit in Madrid, plus a new US home for Formula One. You can watch every race live only on Apple TV. Watch on Apple devices, Android devices, smart TV, streaming devices, gaming consoles or on the web at tv.apple.com all part of one Apple TV subscription, alongside hundreds of exclusive shows and movies. Watch the Formula One Japanese Grand Prix live on Sunday, March 29 at 1am Eastern. Eastern. Or watch race replays on demand anytime only on Apple TV, the new US home of F1. We are supported by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. That's smart. Not checking your phone's battery before heading out. That'll get you every time. Of course, your phone dies on the way to meet someone, leaving you wandering around quietly panicking about being in the wrong spot. Yeah, checking first is smart. So check all state first for a quote that could save you hundreds of you're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary, subject to terms, conditions and availability. Allstate North America Insurance Company affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois. We are supported by Intuit Turbo Tax. April 15th is coming up fast, and if you're like most people, you're probably dreading the whole tax thing. You know, the old way, sitting in some waiting room for hours or sending over your tax docs and waiting and waiting for any kind of update. You want something modern and tech forward, but you also want that human connection. And this year brings a major upgrade. Intuit TurboTax now has in person locations nationwide. You can walk into a tech enabled TurboTax location near you and meet face to face with a real tax expert. Drop off your documents in the store and see them uploaded to your TurboTax app instantly. Just like that, you're done. Your new TurboTax expert stays back and works tirelessly to get you every dollar you deserve, while you get real time notifications as you go about your new day. Honestly, it feels like someone finally figured out what we've all been wanting. It's not some sterile tax office from 1987, and it's not just an app where you're on your own, it's both the human expertise with smart modern tech, you drop off your stuff, go about your day and get real time updates as your expert works through everything. That's the Upgrade. Head to TurboTax.com to find a store location near you and get matched with a TurboTax expert with real time updates and iOS app app this podcast is brought to you by Squarespace, the all in one website platform designed to help you stand out and succeed online. When we were building the Armchair Expert website, Rob actually used Squarespace to get it up and running, which was a smart choice because they've got everything you need in one place to create something that actually looks professional. What really stands out is their blueprint AI feature. It's like having a design assistant that helps you build a site that doesn't look like every other cookie cutter template out there, answer a few questions about what you're trying to do, and create something that actually fits your vision. If you're someone who offers services, whether that's coaching, consulting, creative work, whatever, Squarespace handles all the business stuff too. Payment processing, scheduling, client management. No more juggling five different platforms just to get paid for what you do. The whole thing is designed so you can focus on your actual work instead of wrestling with website tech, which, let's be honest, most of us would rather avoid. So head to squarespace.comdax for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, use Code DAX to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. When I hear your story, my first thought without knowing more about Esther is I can't believe they just took you. Yes, that seems cruel.

[David Cecillo]

I'll go into that.

[Dax Shepard]

But now that I'm hearing a little bit more about Esther, Maybe that was just more than they thought they could handle.

[David Cecillo]

I'm 12. I've got, I would say, moderate behavioral problems. My sister, on the surface, looks fine. On a closer examination, is beginning to have major behavioral problems in and around her. Relationships with other people. She would regularly threaten suicide. She's one of those people who would just go, I will ruin my life to ruin yours. To hurt you. To hurt you. She's 14, so Sophie's Choice type of thing. Who can we help here? And so my aunt and uncle chose to take me. I still bear guilt over that.

[Dax Shepard]

I was going to say you didn't get along with her great, but did you still have guilt?

[David Cecillo]

Totally.

[Dax Shepard]

But they had a solution for her. They sent her to a boarding school.

[David Cecillo]

Yeah. So there's a number of aunts and uncles flying around here. Just view them sort of collectively as finding a solution for the two of us.

[Dax Shepard]

You can imagine them all having family dinner. And they got together to discuss this.

[David Cecillo]

Can you imagine that? So she ends up at a boarding school called the Darrow School, which is actually a really nice school. It's a private school. It was funded by Elliot and Moira, I believe. It's just a boarding school. It has nothing to do with financial instability or kids at risk. However you want to say it. So I go to live with my aunt and uncle. It's an immediate disaster.

[Dax Shepard]

What kind of things were you doing that made it hard for them?

[David Cecillo]

I was obsessed with no longer being poor. We got toys from, like, going to the retirement home. And we'd get handouts from the retirees. It was poor. And so I'm in Virginia. I'm like, there's a pool here. There's a fitness center over there.

[Lily Padman]

Whoa.

[David Cecillo]

There's a community garden. So I kind of won't shut up about it. And so I think that just kind of irritated them. Them. They're short to anger. My uncle has never raised children before. Right, Right. So it didn't quite work out. It's the other strange thing that happened was he was a go getter. He went to school, PTA meetings. Like, okay, David should have 20 minutes of homework every night. Except I didn't need it. I do my homework in school. So all of a sudden, there's a major lie. I'm lying to them about this thing.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, God.

[David Cecillo]

So he settles that. I should sit at the table for an hour a night to do my home homework. It's just one anecdote, except it happened all year long. So it was this constant source of tension between us.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I can say for me not having a dad around and then intermittently having stepdads, I just fucking hated men. I hated mal authority. I was so stubborn and I would die over these power struggles. I just hated outside male authority. Were you having any issues now with having an authoritarian father figure?

[David Cecillo]

I think of it more as me needing more from my own. She was not by blood. Wasn't her family. You know, my mother has just passed away. Yeah. And she agreed to do it, but did she really sign up for that? I think that's where a lot of the tension that I felt came from.

[Dax Shepard]

That makes sense. Yeah. You were probably expecting something that that wasn't coming.

[Lily Padman]

Also, you had just come from a situation where you had way too much independence.

[David Cecillo]

It's funny because I didn't know how to live alone. I was always around other kids.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, that's interesting.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[David Cecillo]

So all of a sudden I'm. I'm living alone by myself. I have a bedroom and paper sounds great, but like, I'm used to bunking with three other.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, you're like lonely as fuck in there.

[David Cecillo]

Yeah, totally.

[Lily Padman]

It's just the opposite of everything you.

[David Cecillo]

It's the opposite of everything I've ever known. So it was really difficult.

[Dax Shepard]

They send you to the Hershey School in Hershey, Pennsylvania.

[David Cecillo]

That's right.

[Dax Shepard]

I like the history of this. This is lovely.

[David Cecillo]

So this is the, in some sense, the Hogwarts you're looking for. Oh, it is for the listeners. Dax made a point like, hey, maybe all these foster kids should have a place like Hogwarts that they can go and be nurtured.

[Lily Padman]

So great.

[David Cecillo]

So there's almost a lore to this at this point. Milton Hershey the chocolatier became very successful, stupendously wealthy, and discovered that he and his wife couldn't have children. So they start an orphanage, I believe it's 1906, called the Hershey Industrial School. By 1909, he's left effectively all his money to this school, which back then I believe was $60 million, which today is about $17 billion.

[Lily Padman]

Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

And you said currently has a $15 billion endowment.

[David Cecillo]

Yeah, no, exactly. Frankly, the so wealthy, they don't know what to do with the money. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

They still let me get in there and start Hogwartsing up the place. Exactly.

[David Cecillo]

Give me my wand. So that's the backstory there. And it just grew from that through the 60s. Basically, black kids were let in and

[Dax Shepard]

girls, there's like about 2,000 kids that are there.

[David Cecillo]

That's right, yeah. Now there's 2,000 kids there. When I was there, it was more like a thousand. But yeah, it's a big place. It dominates the town of Hershey. There's basically the chocolate factory in Milton. Hershey's school.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[David Cecillo]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

This is all very Willy Wonka.

[Lily Padman]

I know it is.

[David Cecillo]

Yeah, totally.

[Dax Shepard]

It's crazy how fucking rich the candy folks were. Like the Mars family and the M and Ms. And the Wrigleys and they had these mansions in Pasadena. Like there was so much money in candy at the beginning of the 1900s,

[David Cecillo]

and Milton actually left his money to kids.

[Lily Padman]

That's amazing.

[Dax Shepard]

That's really sweet. But it wasn't a sweet place, alas, no.

[David Cecillo]

So again, I want to be nuanced here. It's a huge school. There are lots of experiences. It's almost like when you work at a company, your experience is almost purely dictated by your manager. At a place like Milton Hershey School, your experience is almost purely dictated by your house parents. And my house father was a true piece of work. He was a control freak. You know, now that I'm an adult, I look at it like, you know, what happened in his life as a child that made him the way he was?

[Dax Shepard]

Why did he want to control a bunch of young men?

[David Cecillo]

That's right. He was universally despised by the boys. So because he was so difficult, it was this weird sort of spiral where all the worst kids in school. Keep in mind this is aggregating over all of the northeast corridor. All the basically fucked up families. Right. So you take all the worst kids and you put them into one student home because, you know, the house father can handle it.

[Dax Shepard]

He's a warden.

[David Cecillo]

Yes. He's a true piece of work.

[Lily Padman]

How old are you at this point?

[David Cecillo]

I'm there from early in my freshman year until I graduate high school.

[Lily Padman]

Okay.

[David Cecillo]

Okay. Yeah. So it was a very bad place. I was beaten from. I was beaten multiple times by many boys. You know, like full on gang beating type of stuff without the racial connotations there. Just multiple boys kicking the shit out of me.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[David Cecillo]

So it was not a great place. I checked out.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, you start really kind of disassociating now.

[David Cecillo]

Disassociation is a big word. I would say. I was just medicating. So keep in mind I had an idea that I was going to college. I found the classes at Milton Hershey School to be quite easy. I didn't work at them at all. I got all A's. So I'm just waiting it out. In all honesty, I feel like the best Outcome would have been for me in a perfect world just to send me up to college at 16.

[Lily Padman]

Right?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Get you away from all those boys.

[David Cecillo]

That's right, yeah. God, they gave me.

[Lily Padman]

So this controlling man wasn't good at his job either then? If you're getting beat up all the time.

[David Cecillo]

Well, so, I mean, he basically sicked these boys on me once. At Albuquerque Christian Children's Home, there were four kids per room. At MHS there were two kids per room. And the standard rule was you could not enter anyone's room. My house father felt like that was too strict. So he allowed his own ad hoc room privilege where if you could, on their permission, one kid go in, three all in. So one day after church, I'm like farting around and like I'm leaning against the door jambs and my tie is going into the room and he busts us, right? He walked his beat about once every hour or so he catches me leaning into the room. In a technical sense, I was certainly violating his role. In a spiritual sense, I was definitely obeying the spirit of this room. And so through what he considered to be a little bit of back talk, he cancels the room privilege for everybody. There's a sort of group punishment for one person's actions.

[Dax Shepard]

Setting up a code red, basically.

[David Cecillo]

Exactly. And so then I'll never forget it. We had these student home meetings. Truly boring. He's like, you know, you guys should teach him a lesson. So that night I woke up to half the student home kicking the ever living shit out of me. And that's what that place was like, especially the first two years. It got easier in the second two years.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, I've watched a lot of kids get bullied into oblivion. Now there seems to be some predictable outcomes. A lot of kids try to make themselves invisible. And then another branch of kids weirdly become agitators.

[David Cecillo]

Yes, that was me.

[Dax Shepard]

I had a hunch.

[David Cecillo]

So my roommate Bob, you know, he was this really heavy kid. He had no chance of competing in the social hierarchy. He just didn't do it. In hindsight, I'm looking at that. I'm like, that is really no mobile. That is one way to go. But wasn't in my personality. I was raised around kids my whole life. So I became a suck up to exactly these who had kicked the out of me. And that's who I was in high school. Just not even close to the kid I was beforehand. The last year or two definitely got a little easier, but it was really, really tough spot.

[Dax Shepard]

You're doing a lot of dust off.

[David Cecillo]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And for people who haven't done dust off, this is where I'm gonna extend great compassion to you. It's a terrible hype. Yes. You have to have a really shitty resting state of consciousness for that to be an improvement.

[David Cecillo]

The air duster. Yes. My memory's not fabulous. And I look back at some of those experiences. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

You blast it and then all of a sudden you get a wall.

[Lily Padman]

Sorry, I know nothing about you.

[Dax Shepard]

Clean like a keyboard.

[Lily Padman]

Oh. Like the air.

[David Cecillo]

Turns out now they're hip to it, so they add obiturant, so you can't do it. But in the 90s now this is 91, 92. Something like this, you can could just pound that shit.

[Dax Shepard]

And it's a little bit like a nitrocyte, but not nearly as nice. And you're just. All of a sudden you're getting into like the wah, wah, wah, wah, wah. You've left your current time and space, which is what the relief is.

[David Cecillo]

That's.

[Dax Shepard]

But then the headache that ensues after a dust off bench is excruciating. Cost benefit on dust off is terrible, Just terrible.

[David Cecillo]

I'll tell you why I stopped doing it. I did so much of it, I passed out. I fell off my bed. I left now because I survived. So this is a process that makes the can cooler.

[Dax Shepard]

Or like it gets ice on the outside.

[David Cecillo]

It's spraying on my leg and I freeze my leg solid. Basically like frozen chicken thigh. Right.

[Dax Shepard]

So I freeze it.

[David Cecillo]

Yeah. And like, okay, I'm out my dust off career. Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

So again, you're still hell bent on this college fantasy, which is great. And you are specifically hell bent on mit.

[David Cecillo]

I had read all these magazines. Basically Caltech, Stanford and MIT end up at as like almost characters in these stories about these scientists who do all these amazing things. I viewed programming and coding and physics and chemistry and biology and math as basically magic. This was a form of power through some grace of God that I was given the ability to comprehend. It's the Prometheus and I'm going for it. Right. So from a very early age I hear about this place called MIT and I'm like, I'm going to mit. News flash. I did not get into mit.

[Lily Padman]

Mit, Dumb for them.

[Dax Shepard]

You have your first experience and there's waves of realizing this. There's a big gap between intelligence and preparation.

[David Cecillo]

The first thing I notice is when I'm applying, I'm in the academic system now. I know how this stuff works. I just went and took my sat. I had no idea that people prepared for an sat. No one had ever told me this.

[Dax Shepard]

Monica had like four or five workshops.

[Lily Padman]

I did go to a class, a

[David Cecillo]

Kaplan class or the application. I just like ballpoint pen right there. Just started writing about like swimming.

[Dax Shepard]

Couldn't see no outline, no nothing.

[David Cecillo]

No outline, no nothing.

[Lily Padman]

Well, no one's telling you.

[David Cecillo]

I had no idea. You know, it was completely lost on me that my own experiences in my childhood might reflect well on me if I explain them in the right way.

[Dax Shepard]

If you've been in a fucking group home for the last nine years, that could help. But you're gonna focus on your swimming.

[David Cecillo]

That's right.

[Lily Padman]

Did you do well on the SATs?

[David Cecillo]

Did.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, 1320.

[David Cecillo]

1310. Yeah, good point.

[Lily Padman]

1310. Going in 700 on math.

[Dax Shepard]

610 English.

[David Cecillo]

Yes. Wow, nice.

[Dax Shepard]

But people at MIT have 1500.

[David Cecillo]

Yeah, I know. It's not even the ballpark.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. You're not getting any.

[David Cecillo]

I'm not. I'm not getting any. 10 minutes. So I was accepted to Carnegie Mellon, which it turns out to be a fabulous school. I worked probably a little too hard, but it was this moment for me of just absolute freedom, self realization. I had a really hard time my first semester.

[Dax Shepard]

Let's first though, talk about the euphoria. I think it's really rad. You get put in a dorm, you have a cafeteria to eat. You're allowed to sit on the roof of your dorm and you just sit up there and you get to gaze upon this campus that you're now a part of. And you're out of prison. Yes. That is so profound. I can't even imagine the elation you felt.

[David Cecillo]

Yeah, my first buddy, sport, I think he walked by me. He's a lifelong friend. I met him the first day of college. And I'm like sitting, I'm cackling, you know, like, I'm like, oh my God. I don't know how to explain it. Like pee after a five hour car ride. Right. Just like this huge sense of.

[Dax Shepard]

You hadn't even let yourself fantasize that you could now have it as good as you currently have it. That's quite a unique feeling.

[David Cecillo]

That's a unique feeling and it was amazing. I was going to make the best of that circumstance. Right.

[Lily Padman]

And you had a scholarship, I assume?

[David Cecillo]

Yeah, full ride for swimming. I was the worst swimmer on the team in high school. I couldn't stand it. I was terrible at it. My uncle takes me to Penn State just to look around as a prospective school. And we sit down with A financial aid adviser who clearly had some very broad authority. So this guy starts asking me about my life and he's kind of dumpster diving through my childhood, but I tell him all this stuff. You get independent status now. I'm no longer associated with my family from the perspective of the government. So I'm gonna get the maximal amount of financial aid from the government. I'm gonna get the maximal financial aid from Carnegie Mellon. And when I say full ride, that's what I mean.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, great.

[Dax Shepard]

And you go there with the original intention of doing physics, but quickly you get into computer science.

[David Cecillo]

Yes. Yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

You've timed this kind of nice nicely.

[David Cecillo]

Yeah. Tell me if you can relate to this. We're the same age. I feel like my whole life has been riding on the crest of a technological wave. I'm five years old when personal computers come out. Before personal computers, working with a computer was a colossal pain in the ass. Yeah, right. Then the video games come out and then all of a sudden you can tinker with basic programs. And then there's Pascal, and then I get to college and there's the Internet.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You weren't ever playing catch up.

[David Cecillo]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

You were learning at the same time everyone else was.

[David Cecillo]

It was always just happening. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

That's a huge advantage. I imagine now if you're 17 and you imagine entering this thing and you've now got 40 years to catch up on.

[David Cecillo]

Well, now with A.I. maybe not.

[Dax Shepard]

Maybe not. Yeah. Up until 18 months ago, it was incumbent upon you to catch up and that must have felt a little overwhelming.

[David Cecillo]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

You're already right at the precipice. So a new thing comes out and you're interested in that and you already kind of understand the proceeding thing and so you're like really well positioned for this.

[David Cecillo]

So I, I'm taking my classes really serious now. Computer science class is just mind bending, just awesome. Now what starts to happen is that the negative side of my childhood survival strategy starts to show itself. Basically when I'm 10 years old, to survive these truly desperate circumstances, I'm telling myself I'm a fucking genius. So there's a fine line between self love and narcissism. Right. And so I get to Carnegie Mellon and I'm like, wait a minute, there's a lot of very smart kids. And I mean, like, even after the first semester where I sort of acculturate and begin to figure out how to get things done, I'm just like, okay, I was big fish, small pond, that whole thing. And now I'm in the big pond. So I begin to go into self prove mode. I'm certainly not gonna fail my classes. I have to convince, like no matter what group I'm in, I'm the smartest. And all this just weird, like, pathological stuff.

[Dax Shepard]

Hard to be around. Maybe a little bit.

[David Cecillo]

I'd like to think I wasn't too hard to be around, but I was definitely intense.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[David Cecillo]

The thing about living in group homes, you learn how to be around people.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah. Adapt.

[David Cecillo]

Like right now. What's going on between the three? I know you guys are picking up. I watched a bunch of your episodes. I'm also doing that.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[David Cecillo]

And so that's keeping me from being a complete jerk. Okay.

[Lily Padman]

That's a good skill.

[Dax Shepard]

AA says it best. Like alcoholics are megalomaniacs with an inferiority complex or the piece of shit that the world revolves around. Like I can very much relate to these dramatic swings in my ego. Like I'm either worthless or now I'm Prometheus.

[David Cecillo]

You know, like totally. Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

And I think it's like to buff it and get you out of this other cycle. I just think this weird bipolar of it is a little predictable.

[David Cecillo]

You're describing my experience perfectly. And I'm guessing quite a few people's given social media and all the other things that are going on.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's one or the other. I mean, the worst or the best.

[David Cecillo]

That's right.

[Dax Shepard]

There's no middle ground whatsoever.

[David Cecillo]

Gotta try.

[Dax Shepard]

So as these things start burbling up, how are you coping? The fact that you're not an addict or you're not a sex addict, or you're not a gambling addict. The well worn modulators of these feelings. You're not really.

[David Cecillo]

To be perfectly clear, in college I did a lot of drinking. Maybe it's just because my parents were heroin addicts, but the word addict to me has very specific meaning.

[Dax Shepard]

It's a very extreme definition for you.

[David Cecillo]

Well, you know, I'm drinking on Friday and Saturday night.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, but that's like you're in college.

[David Cecillo]

Yeah, I'm not binging or anything. So I had a couple friends, we'd hang out. And the other thing that I was doing was I'm busy all the time.

[Dax Shepard]

There we go. So you kind of maybe regulating with kind of a work addiction. Something's.

[David Cecillo]

That's right. Yeah. No, that's insightful because, you know, when I stopped going to college, things really.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. Because you're in discomfort and humans don't sit in discomfort forever. They figure out something to alleviate that. And so obviously when you are killing yourself working and then you meet somebody and this is a match made in heaven. Right. You have a professor that very much from your perspective, you're developing kind of a father son vibe.

[David Cecillo]

That's right. So the beginning of my junior year Internet is there and now people are starting to think, think about how can we do stuff with this. He had this at the time, what I thought was a brilliant idea. In hindsight it would never have worked. But it's like a social media company for exchanging information where like you ask a question and if anyone in the world knows it, then through your social network you'd potentially get an answer and everyone along the chain would get a cut. Very clever idea. Never ever gonna work. We didn't know it at the time.

[Lily Padman]

Kind of Reddit really. I mean, don't you think it's sort of like Reddit now?

[Dax Shepard]

People like you could even say Wikipedia in some fashion. That was kind of self generated knowledge.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[David Cecillo]

I put down my math, close my textbooks and I go to the computer lab. We start building this thing out. It becomes a company and I'm like the tech lead.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh wait, Champ.

[David Cecillo]

Ohm. All of a sudden I'm like the big man on campus. I cannot tell you how great like to have money. My classes were paid for and like I could go to the cafeteria to eat, but I was truly scrimping by.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And you've never had money and I've

[David Cecillo]

never in my life had money.

[Dax Shepard]

Like a basketball player.

[David Cecillo]

No idea what's going on. Like ah. So Pittsburgh is a beautiful and very inexpensive city. I don't even have to spend my money, my classes, like I'm just like buying pianos.

[Lily Padman]

Wow.

[David Cecillo]

Catching up, just doing it all.

[Dax Shepard]

So that's Freudian because your mother drug a piano around everywhere she went.

[David Cecillo]

So that was the experience. And I started burning out after two years of this.

[Dax Shepard]

And this relationship was not what you were hoping it was really going to be additional.

[David Cecillo]

That's right. So I think this is probably very common. I found this person to be like a father figure. And I don't know where his mental state on that or emotional state on that was. He was a hotshot in computer science and he had pivoted from like a theory career to a more applied career. So we were building out this company. It turns out that he did not, I believe, have this same sense of mentoring me. Father figure's a funny word. There was clearly some kind of transference on my part of feelings that were not really meant for But I was giving them to him.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, Right. And then unwittingly forming expectations of how that would be reciprocated, I'm sure.

[David Cecillo]

And when it wasn't, I felt hurt. And the company is, you know, very stressful. I mean, it was a very empowering experience.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

You had a team of like 20 kids working under you.

[David Cecillo]

15 kids under me. I'm 22, 23.

[Dax Shepard]

What kind of money are you making? I need to know.

[David Cecillo]

Yeah, by that point, I'm making 50,000 bucks.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, I got in college in 96. That's insane. That's so much money. That's like 200 grand a year right now.

[David Cecillo]

So much money. Yeah, totally. I get burnt out and I rage, quit. And it was the dumbest thing I've ever done in my life because now I still have to take classes. But I'm past my senior year, so I gotta pay for it myself. How do I pay for it? All my grants are gone. Before, when I was making that 50k, I could swing it, no problem, but now I can't swing it. So. In a very rash and dumb move. And exactly the kind of shit you wouldn't do if you had parents to talk to. People don't understand these kids. Me, I'm not talking to someone.

[Dax Shepard]

You get to come up with whatever dumb idea you have and execute it.

[David Cecillo]

So I moved to Boston four credits short of graduating after this whole life

[Dax Shepard]

goal of I'm going to graduate. Isn't this heartbreaking and so predictable?

[David Cecillo]

I know. I had educated myself, right. I didn't actually care about the degree per se. So in my mind, I had viewed it as basically done.

[Dax Shepard]

Because you were employable now?

[David Cecillo]

I was employable now, yes. And I followed a. AI and video game company to Boston. They wanted to relocate from Pittsburgh to there. And so I followed them up. And I had, without a doubt, the worst year of my life.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, my God.

[David Cecillo]

I discovered that there is hell on earth. So I'm living alone for the first time. I think a lot of this, again, I just want to emphasize, was so avoidable. And if I had anyone to talk to. I'm not in therapy at this point. I'm not talking to any of my aunts and uncles, obviously no parents. I'm just raw doging the entire experience.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, by the way, for me, my ego would have been saying, you know what? I didn't need any of you. I'm here now. I didn't get a fucking chance. And no one was here. And now I'm doing it all on my Own. That would have been fuel for me. You didn't have that.

[Lily Padman]

It doesn't seem like your personality.

[David Cecillo]

It was that way my whole childhood that was just ingrained in who I was. It wasn't like saucy, it was just like, yeah, I'm gonna go do it myself.

[Lily Padman]

Right. But you knew you needed people. Cause you also grew up doing that.

[David Cecillo]

So I discovered in Boston. And so when you go to college, Even in the 90s, there's orientation. They set you up. Here are your friends. My still best friend in life is my first buddy from my first day of college.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[David Cecillo]

So they really work hard to make these environments successful.

[Lily Padman]

Right.

[David Cecillo]

Socially successful. I moved to Boston. I'm living in a suburb by myself for the first time ever at like a truly nerdy 12 person company. I'm not really relating to anyone there. The job is without a doubt the hardest thing technically I've ever done.

[Dax Shepard]

What do they call the thing you were building?

[David Cecillo]

Compiler.

[Dax Shepard]

A compiler.

[David Cecillo]

So a compiler. Tyler translates the high level human code. 10 print. Monica is cool. 20 go to 10 run. Monocle is cool. Monocle is cool. Monica is cool. Turn that into machine code that runs.

[Lily Padman]

Wow.

[David Cecillo]

That's a very difficult program to write or reason about. And so I ended up working as the junior guy with one of these like fucking geniuses who had written this thing. So I have to learn what he did. He's going to go off to become an assistant professor. He's a PhD. So I have to learn all of this. I'm basically just well beyond my abilities here. And so within three or four months, my life just starts falling apart. I start having panic attacks. This is one of those things. You've either experienced it or you haven't. Because you can't explain to people what a panic attack is if they've never had one. They won't get it. This is a thing that happens where it has the prominence of overwhelming pain. Whatever you were thinking about before, you don't care about that anymore. It's like you're being tortured, except it's coming from inside of you and you don't know why you're having it. For me, it lasted anywhere from 10 to 30 minutes. And then after that's done, you sort of have this overwhelming exhaustion because your body is just like fatigued. Complete freak out. And so I started having these panic attacks once a day.

[Dax Shepard]

Well then you talk about the cycle of your fear of having them.

[Lily Padman]

Well, yeah, I've had them. And that's the worst part. It's like when's it coming today?

[David Cecillo]

You know it like, oh, my God. So I'm alone. I don't have any support whatsoever. I don't even know what to do. Like, should I go to a hospital? But what I learn is that I don't need to go to a hospital. I can just keep going and keep going. And as the year progresses, I move there in early fall. Now it's maybe spring or so. My panic attacks. I start doing, like, this, completely uncontrollable.

[Dax Shepard]

You're short circuiting.

[David Cecillo]

Yeah. Right on the edge of being able to function in society. So I go up to the top of the roof, another roof story. And I'm smelling the trees and the flowers and blue. I'm like, look over the edge. I'm like, I could do this. And I immediately realized I have a problem.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, we're here now.

[David Cecillo]

Yeah. I did not have suicidal ideation forever and ever. I had it once, and I was like, this means something. I'm fucking smart. I'm gonna take this seriously.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, right.

[David Cecillo]

Because I'm just miserable. And I'm thinking, if I throw myself over the roof, I'm gonna cease this pain.

[Lily Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. The suffering will stop.

[David Cecillo]

A couple things I try. Try a little bit of acupuncture, which is actually fairly helpful in the short. I ultimately reach out to my Uncle Elliot, who's a therapist. Uncle Elliot, my aunt Moira. They were the first people to come check out with a situation for my sister and I at the Albuquerque Christian Children's Home. They're therapists. They knew right away. They were like, you need to get into therapy. And I really didn't want to get into therapy.

[Dax Shepard]

Can you remember your reservation or the story you had about it?

[David Cecillo]

Some combination of. I knew it wouldn't be much fun. I was just in so much. But because I am, I am going to do this. This guy, Dr. Laquercia, one of my Uncle Elliot's close collaborators. So I give this guy a call and he agrees to see me. And so that really is, like, close the chapter. Because everything that happens afterwards, my life just starts taking off. And so the first thing that happens, it takes a while, actually six months to about a year, is the cessation of this absolutely unbearable panic. I quit that chapter and I moved to New York. This is where my aunt and uncle live. I'm just trying to be close to anybody. I am full on tail between my legs. I don't know what went wrong with my life. Something's messed up. I need to figure this out.

[Dax Shepard]

Also, can I say you have no more story. So you had a story that was getting you through the previous 15 years, which you said, I'm going to go to college and I'm going to acquire this knowledge and that is going to liberate me. And now you have it. You have the solution, which is kind of the scariest point when you have the solution. And yet things are at their worst point. It's, I would say, triply scary. This is a moment in an addict's life when you have all the medicine you're supposed to have and it's no longer fixing the thing is very, very, very discouraging.

[David Cecillo]

You nailed it. This is exactly right. I'm in Boston. I'm done. I did the thing. I know I had four classes left, but in my mind I've achieved the goal. And it turns out that it was the having the goal was the solution. So now I just have lots of goals.

[Dax Shepard]

Achievement. Yeah.

[David Cecillo]

Stay tuned for more Armchair expert if you dare.

[Dax Shepard]

Thank you to our presenting sponsor, Apple TV, the new U.S. home of Formula One. You can now watch complete all access live coverage of every Grand Prix including practice, qualifying and sprints all in one place. I will be consuming all of those things, Monica.

[Lily Padman]

I know you will.

[Dax Shepard]

I kill for Friday to start watching practice one following and then on a sprint weekend. Oh my gosh, two races races. And this season brings a ton of new energy to the sport. New teams like Cadillac and Audi just joining the grid. New drivers stepping into major seats. Lando Norris defending his first World Drivers Championship. And all eyes on Lewis Hamilton in his second season with Ferrari. And a brand new circuit in Madrid. Plus a new US home for Formula One. You can watch every race live only on Apple TV. Watch on Apple devices, Android devices, smart TV streaming devices, gaming consoles or on the web at TV apple.com all part of one Apple TV subscription alongside hundreds of exclusive shows and movies. Watch the Formula One Japanese Grand Prix live on Sunday, March 29 at 1am Eastern or watch race replays on demand anytime only on Apple TV, the new US home of F1. We are supported by Alexa. Say hello to the all new Alexa. The smartest, most proactive AI assisted. Just chat naturally about anything and watch your to do list disappear. Planning date night one conversation handles everything from dinner reservations to entertainment recommendations. Need last minute concert tickets? Craving your favorite restaurant? Just sit back, relax and talk naturally. Alexa's on it. Alexa learns your style, remembers what you love, anticipates what's next and puts thousands of services at your fingertips. Whether you're managing Your smart home, booking, travel, or just getting through your day, Alexa is right there with you. Experience AI, that's all yours. Ready whenever inspiration strikes. And now Alexa is free with prime on your Amazon devices like echo and Fire TV. Learn more at Amazon.com Alexa+ that's Amazon.com Alexa this episode is brought to you by Walden University. So here's something I've been thinking about. There are people out there who want to make real change, not just talk about it, but actually do it. Maybe it's advancing in their career, maybe it's making a difference in their community. And they're working full time, juggling life, wondering if going back to school is even possible. That's where Walden University comes in. For over 50 years, they've been helping working professionals get the w, the knowledge, the skills, the confidence to build the future they actually want. Here's what makes it work. Walden's tempo Learning means you're in control. No rigid weekly deadlines, no set schedules. You move through your degree at your own pace, on your terms. And you're learning from faculty who've actually been there. Scholars and practitioners with real world experience, 94% of whom hold doctoral degrees. If you've been waiting for the right moment, this is it. Head to waldenu. Edu and take that first step. Walden University set a course for change. Certified to operate by Chev. This episode is sponsored by Better Help. So we're in March, which means it's a moment to celebrate women. And I want to take a second to acknowledge some incredible women in my life. My family, of course, and Monica, obviously, who I get to work with every day. The women on our team, the women in this industry who are constantly juggling a million things at once, they carry so much. They're manag work, relationships, family dynamics, and about a thousand invisible responsibilities that nobody sees or acknowledges. And here's what I've learned. Taking care of everyone else is exhausting. Setting boundaries, creating balance, making space for yourself that's not selfish, that's necessary. And therapy can be a really powerful tool for that. It's a space to work through the pressures, the expectations, the roles we all play. Betterhelp makes it easier to get started. They match you with a licensed therapist based on your needs. And if it's not the right fit, you can switch anytime your emotional well being matters. Find support and feel lighter in therapy. Sign up and get 10% [e-mail] Dax that's betterhelp.com Dax.

[David Cecillo]

So I moved down to Manhattan and a couple Things happen. I start going to therapy on a weekly basis. That's very, very helpful. I tried a little bit of Prozac. Didn't like how it made me feel, so I discontinued that. But right around the same time time I started running, I was a nerd. I never really got into fitness. And all of a sudden I'm like, hey, I felt really good after running.

[Dax Shepard]

It buys me three, four hours of feeling good.

[David Cecillo]

Yeah. So I discuss it with my therapist. We agree we should probably turn this into a habit. So between exercise and this therapy and being closer to family, I start to pull myself out of a very, very dark place. And things really start going much better for me after that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. You start a master's program at Columbia.

[David Cecillo]

Fulbright Scholarship.

[Dax Shepard]

What were you doing over there for three years? Because you weren't accomplishing anything towards your PhD. I know that.

[David Cecillo]

Yeah. So I have to finish up my degree. Got to get those four classes. Luckily, my student advisor at Carnegie Mellon was helpful with that. So I get the degree a couple years later. Now I actually did a Chief Technology officer. It was a grossly overblown title, but anyways, we were building some dot com thing that blows up in the dot com bubble. So now, like everyone else, I got to go back to school. I want to go back to school. I go up to Columbia University and I get a job as a UNIX systems administrator. Just fixing the computers. And they'll pay me a living wage and they'll let you take free classes. Great gig. Be an administrator on a university campus, get a free master's degree. It's a very good way to go. So that's just what I was doing. I then apply for a PhD program in neuroscience.

[Dax Shepard]

The breakthrough hasn't happened yet. Right. To remind people, we had the godmother of AI Fei.

[Lily Padman]

Fei Li.

[Dax Shepard]

Fei Fei Li.

[David Cecillo]

Oh, yeah, sure.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. And AI had all these stutter stops. It had, like, big periods of progress, then total stagnation for years. But the last big breakthrough, which we're on the shoulders of, is starting to design AI in the same way a neural network works in a brain. Had that happened yet?

[David Cecillo]

No, it's all earlier than that.

[Dax Shepard]

But again, convenient. You get interested in neurology, it all

[David Cecillo]

goes back to, I want to do something that helps the world. That sounds a little cliche, but damn it, I'm earnest. This is what I want to do. And, well, what are my gifts? I'm technical. So there's this branch of neuroscience called computational neuroscience, which is sort of like the. The math of how brains Work. The brain is a complicated thing. And so it's an organ. It actually builds itself, it grows. So there's all kinds of things that happen as like a purely sort of organ. But there's this other thing, this view. I can say, hey Monica, count to 10.

[Lily Padman]

You can do it some days.

[David Cecillo]

Yeah, totally. We can figure out the rules of Scrabble together. So this arbitrary ability to reason about new things that you've never ever thought about before, that sure sounds like a computer. So I was interested in getting into to that kind of work.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, maybe. Did you have the realization like, oh yeah, it's a big gooey biological entity, but it is in fact very mechanized. It's a machine. It runs on electricity. We know the parts of the electrical circuits. It's actually more mechanical than I think you grow up thinking of the brain.

[David Cecillo]

So I think that's right. I'd say there is a machine in there. It's an electrical machine. Yeah, but how does that work is one of the great mysteries of our time. And I want to think about it. I think that's super interesting and maybe, maybe it'll help. Maybe mental illnesses, maybe drug addictions are we would say, like a network apathy. That is to say, even though some of these things change because of molecules, how the neural network function breaks and the pathology is at the network. So if that's really true, of course you can go try to fix the molecules, but you could also try to understand what's broken about the network. Sort of how the machine is no longer functioning. So I found that very interesting. I applied to a bunch of schools. I got into Columbia. Columbia, it turns out, has a truly world class neuroscience program.

[Dax Shepard]

It's now called the Neural.

[David Cecillo]

Right, so it's a big program. They have a sub program called the center for Theoretical Neuroscience.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah. Which is now very reputable.

[David Cecillo]

Yeah, it's very, very reputable. It was started by my mentor, my PhD advisor, Larry. Larry Abbott. Yes, and another researcher, Ken Miller. And so they start this. By now we're 2003, 2000, 2004, I join and this is just the best thing ever. And the Fulbright was part of that.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so then you get your PhD, you start working with Larry, who you guys hit it off famously. You had had another advisor that you guys did not work and then you leave and then you go and you work at Google Brain. But you have a desire still to be in academia.

[David Cecillo]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

How do we figure out how to go from Google Brain back to academia?

[David Cecillo]

Yeah. So to answer that, I want to Just back up a little bit and talk about where is the state of AI and neural networks.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, let's do that.

[David Cecillo]

The broad consensus moment for when people thought that neural networks are here. There was a neural network that had a name. We gave it a name. It's called Alexnet, after Alex Krichevsky, Ilya Sutzkever, Jeff Hinton. Anyways, they built this network that beat hand designed networks at a really hard image recognition task. This is 2012.

[Dax Shepard]

This is Imagenet.

[David Cecillo]

This is Imagenet. Fei Fei Li, her lab collected that data. Yeah, right. So this hugely impactful thing she did really drove all of this work in neuroscience. So that happened in 2012. But the real moment, something called a restricted Boltzmann machine. This is like 2006, 2007, 2008 again, out of Jeff Hinton's lab, I believe. Apologies if I don't have that exactly right. Nowadays we don't use any of those approaches, but it was this moment where like, okay, when you combine these simple system, these simple neurons together, an artificial neuron is really simple. It takes inputs, adds them up, and if they're above a certain value it emits a 1, and if they're below a certain value, it emits a zero. And so that's a very simple computational device. When you connect a gajillion of them together in just the right way, it turns out you can compute anything that is computable. That's what our brains are doing on some abstract level. And so that's where all coming from. I'm finishing my PhD and this restricted Boltzmann machine happens. And I'm thinking about what are called recurrent neural networks, which had feedback loops. Feedback loops are important because that's actually how your brain is working. Instead of a feed forward processing of like an assembly line of information processing, it's people talking back at each other and all this really complex chaos.

[Dax Shepard]

Could you give like a literal example of how it works?

[David Cecillo]

If I wanted to make a system that could flexibly pick up my soda, that is going to be a recurrent system. We call it a dynamical where what's happening as I lift this can is coming back through so called proprioception, through signals that are telling my brain what's actually happening as well as my vision. So that's all one big feedback.

[Dax Shepard]

It's like self correcting. At all times, the information's flowing both directions.

[David Cecillo]

That's right.

[Dax Shepard]

So it's sending info and it's receiving info and it's making adjustments real time.

[David Cecillo]

That's Right.

[Dax Shepard]

It doesn't send like the full blueprint down to the hand to accomplish that task. It's going to check in all the time to see how. How we're doing.

[David Cecillo]

Exactly. So this is the kind of thing that I'm thinking about, right. As these networks are starting to become prominent. So I then apply those approaches in a postdoc at Stanford and then I go to Google Brain. And in Google Brain, this is when people with money, it was because of Alexnet. Now we're like 2012. The top brass at Google figured out that neural networks, we gotta be in this, number one, are going to work. There's been this long, many decades, history of promise with no delivery. That is is changing. They knew that then they basically purchased all the talent on the planet, give or take. They get all these researchers together and just like go do what you want, develop these neural networks. Neural networks. Because we started stacking these networks together, it became known as deep learning Deep neural networks. That was the catchphrase from like 2015 to 2020. And DeepMind was one and DeepMind was all built off of deep networks. So sorry, the naming is playing off of that cachet. Yeah, I'm part of that scene. And now, coming finally back to your question, I wanted to apply all of these neural networks approaches to understand actually how brains work. I care about the brain.

[Dax Shepard]

Now. We're in this weird zone currently, right, where it's like we were trying to understand the brain to design the machine, but now the machine's kind of working in a way that we might be able to answer some of the ways that the brain works.

[David Cecillo]

That's exactly right. Modern AI. AI is sort of the rebranding of deep networks. There's some technical changes there applied to. To language because the big surprise was that it's a really interesting thing, actually. If you ask a neural network to spit out the next word in English and you do that for all of the text on the Internet, it learns something about the world. You can think about it in terms of context, like, I'm going to the now ask me to fill in. The next blank could be fridge, bathroom, store. But if you said, I need some milk, I'm going to the, then you know it's going to be the fridge or store. Now you just expand that out to a full thing.

[Dax Shepard]

And the computer has the capacity to go through every single written word in the world and come up with the most probabilistic next word in that sentence. Whereas a human can't scan the known written language. But the Computer can.

[David Cecillo]

We don't learn anything like this. But this is how the computers are learning, is just to predict one step ahead. That's really the magic of large language models, and that's where we've now rebranded to AI, because it turns out doing this makes these things intelligent in some way. So, coming back to your point, the origins of AI really go back to studying the brain, all the way back to McCulloch and Pitts. They made this artificial neuron in the 40s, and they showed that if you connected them, you could build an arbitrarily powerful computer. And it was revolutionary because no one had ever figured out. They abstracted away the details, but these squishy neurons in your brain could actually behave like a computer. It was just a revolutionary idea. And that began decades of research to study that ultimately, through neuroscience, results sort of led to different types of networks and so on and so forth. So where are we today? It's exactly what you said. It's the opposite. I'm a huge proponent of using artificial intelligence for science discovery, and it's much broader than neuroscience. My particular love is neuroscience. I think we're in for some huge and positive changes here. If you look at it that way, there's a whole other conversation to be had.

[Dax Shepard]

We built a device that can help us understand our own intelligence.

[David Cecillo]

That's right. Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Hilarious.

[David Cecillo]

So now forecasting in the future, which is always dangerous, but super fun, you could imagine that once we know how the brains work, we begin to actually include even more detail to align these AI models to more how we think. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Because there was a single thing I read I wanted to bring up to you, which is I do think people misunderstand AI a little bit, and maybe I'm wrong about this, but I read this interesting thing they did. It doesn't think. They're not going to create, they're going to predict. So the example that this article I wrote read was is that they trained an AI model on all of the known scientific literature of the 1300s, and then they asked the AI, do we revolve around the sun, or does the sun revolve around the planet? Is it a heliocentric or a geocentric model of the universe? And the AI said it's geocentric. The sun revolves around us. So in that way, it's not super intelligent. It can't be Galileo. If you give it the information that was known at that day, it's going to give you the highest probability prediction of that information. But it can't be Galileo. It can't think beyond what it knows, at least currently. So what do we think about that? Like, how do we define thinking? And then is that just one category within intelligence? And how do we account for that?

[David Cecillo]

I have a different opinion. So I'm going to be really nuanced here because I can't stand AI freakout and I don't want to be a part of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I don't think these AIs are alive. I don't think they're conscious. So to the degree that this makes any sense, I do think they're thinking. I think they're like the first example of like Descartes being dead wrong in that sense of like, I think, therefore I am. These things are thinking in the reductive sense of manipulating language for the purposes of reasoning and conceptualizing. I think they're doing it, but there's nothing behind the machine. There's just automated process.

[Dax Shepard]

But how can they go forward, I guess is my question. Unless we command them in a certain way, it's already original. Thought that was creative and what I would put in quotes, thinking. And then we'll now use this device as a great pattern recognition machine to substantiate this creative thing we had. But on its own, it can't come up with the heliocentric.

[David Cecillo]

I acknowledge your example. That's a very hard example. But if we pull back, I do think that there is quite a bit of novelty that these things are capable of generating. But I agree with you that there are unsolved problems in and around, around that kind of scientific progress. So this is an enormous conversation.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah.

[David Cecillo]

But what I would say is it's in the air right now that like something has changed in AI. I don't know if you caught wind of this, right. Like in the last, say three or four months, all of a sudden these things are coding much better. And all of a sudden there's this sense that the top brass at major tech companies are taking it much more seriously. Again, I'm hesitant to make predictions, but what's happening is that these, these tools are becoming much, much better, but there's still a real sense of supervision of these tools.

[Dax Shepard]

They're compounding, though, is the point. Right?

[David Cecillo]

Exactly. So the question is if you believe that they've moved on from single token prediction to other more technical methods involving reinforcement learning. It's another conversation. But the idea is that if they're self improving at what pace and so on and so forth.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah.

[David Cecillo]

And what we see, at least in early 2026, they are getting better. And that I think a lot of the discussion that's happening is really more about people adjusting to this idea than it is the technology itself.

[Dax Shepard]

What is your signpost you look at? So for me, obviously egocentrically, I'm really tracking AI's progress through what I see that is digitally created. We just had an ad nauseam talk about getting sent videos and should you tell the person, hey, I think that's

[David Cecillo]

AI or not, right? Yeah, yeah, totally.

[Dax Shepard]

Because they're asking at the level where two people in film and television can't tell, can't tell. And so that bridge has been crossed now. I still think they don't have the human voices when they do dialogue and they try to do the cadence of human speak. That to me is still the giveaway. But fuck the visuals. There's no more six fingers. That's my layman's version of tracking where we're at. It's just what I'm seeing done visually, digitally. What are the things you look at?

[David Cecillo]

In my world, it's all coding.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay.

[David Cecillo]

So if there is just interface, like I'm gonna go build a little web browser to go make a little video game. AI is just going to do that

[Dax Shepard]

for you in a second.

[David Cecillo]

In a second, Yeah. A couple minutes.

[Dax Shepard]

But yes.

[David Cecillo]

Right. So where these things I think are still struggling is if it's, we would say technically out of distribution, if it's not something it's seen a lot of before, if it's integrated into a much, much larger code base is what you see at these large companies. But it's getting better at those things too. And so we're still, I think, in this mode where like the human and the computer together, the human and the AI together are really the best.

[Lily Padman]

The good car.

[David Cecillo]

And so what I would look for in your shoes, very similar in my shoes actually, is when does that clip become a movie? For me, it's when does that chunk o UI code, user interface code, become

[Dax Shepard]

the whole program and a product.

[David Cecillo]

Exactly. And to be honest with you, I just don't see humans leaving that process anytime soon. I think that's a risky opinion.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, there's a lot of money been bet on the phone.

[David Cecillo]

That's right.

[Dax Shepard]

They will get more efficient.

[David Cecillo]

There's a lot of hype out there, but in some sense you have to take it seriously because these tools are getting much, much better. And you know, what I would say to any of your listeners is like, if you're not checking these things out, you absolutely should be. I really mean it. You can't sit it out in a positive way. Like, imagine all the things that you could do with these kinds of creation tools. For me in my science career, so there's this thing called Google Scholar. It's where academics help their papers listed. Just go read every one of my papers and tell me what you think I should work on next.

[Dax Shepard]

Wow.

[David Cecillo]

I shit you not. It gave me the same idea that I had.

[Dax Shepard]

Whoa, really?

[David Cecillo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, really.

[Dax Shepard]

Now, I don't want to be disagreeable, but go ahead. Therein lies also an Achilles of it.

[David Cecillo]

Which is?

[Dax Shepard]

Which is it came to the same conclusion you came to. Ah. Because it made a probable prediction about you, which it can do.

[David Cecillo]

Well, I gotta say, I find it pretty impressive. I don't view that as a fail because it had to be that way. It was like the only thing it could have done right.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, no, no, that's not actually my concern is that I'll make it more artistic. So, yeah, go read the 35 scripts I've written. What should I write next? All that that would ensure is that I stay within my creative pattern. And in fact, what I probably need to do isn't the thing that was obvious to me. I mean, this is very philosophical.

[David Cecillo]

I accept that critique.

[Dax Shepard]

You know what I'm saying?

[David Cecillo]

I see where you're coming from.

[Dax Shepard]

What it can do is advise on more of the same in some sense. And depending on what your career is, if your career is to disrupt yourself and your work should constantly be trying to 180 at all times. Oh, fuck. Well, let's jump way over here for this perspective and see what I can bring with that and come up with a new thing. And that way I think it can be stunting for progress.

[David Cecillo]

I see in science, jumping around 180 too many times is not fabulous because one step to the next, it's hard. It's hard, right?

[Lily Padman]

I mean, same in art too. We don't like to think of it like that, but we have skills.

[David Cecillo]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

We have things we're better at than others. And what it's doing is saying, you're best at this, so maybe you should do more of that. I think that's.

[Dax Shepard]

I might be able to articulate it better by saying I fear that it could be a reproduction instead of an iteration. Does that make sense?

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, it makes sense.

[Dax Shepard]

Does it get us out of the true creative mindset?

[David Cecillo]

Right. I'll tell you the one thing that I am aligned with, with people who, who are thinking about this more deeply than I am, is I Think the world is in for some very large changes. Oh, hell, yeah. And especially, like the science discovery optimization process. Business to business applications.

[Dax Shepard]

It's all on the table.

[David Cecillo]

It's all on the table.

[Dax Shepard]

That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lily Padman]

We had a guy on, David Feigenbaum. He has a foundation where they're repurposing drugs that are already out on the market for other cures. He cured himself with this disease, and it's an incredible story. And they're using AI, obviously, to, like, process all these drugs and see exactly what they do. And they just got, like, a huge grant. He emailed me.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wonderful.

[Lily Padman]

That's so amazing. We'll cure diseases that cannot be cured based on this. It's happening. It's not, like, something in the future. It's currently going on. It's awesome.

[Dax Shepard]

We are going to see this experiment play out. Like it or not, that's what's gonna happen. So I don't even sit around. Well, what if. What if I'm like, well, let's see. Allow myself to be as optimistic as I would be Pessimistic? We don't fucking know, so why am I gonna have an opinion? None of us really has.

[David Cecillo]

Yeah, it's true. Nobody knows.

[Dax Shepard]

You know what's so fun? We're gonna see.

[David Cecillo]

That's right.

[Dax Shepard]

We happen to have been born in a period of time where we're going to see.

[David Cecillo]

That's my mentality, for sure.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Well, David, this was lovely.

[David Cecillo]

Thank you for having me.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah. Thanks so much for sharing your story. I think it's obviously so important.

[David Cecillo]

I appreciate that. Thank you for hearing it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Such a pleasure. Anyone ever tell you you look like

[David Cecillo]

James Hatfield these days? Probably once every three months.

[Dax Shepard]

There we go.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, wow.

[Dax Shepard]

Great. I would be flattered.

[David Cecillo]

I think it's the beard. I actually took a close look. We don't actually look anything alike.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, every three months. Some people disagree.

[David Cecillo]

Yeah. It's a thing. I'm like, yeah, man, let's stretch David's book.

[Dax Shepard]

Please, please read it. It's beautifully written and very, very honest. It's called Emergence A Memoir of Boyhood, Computation and the Mysteries of the Mind. Be well, David.

[David Cecillo]

Thank you very much.

[Lily Padman]

Stay tuned for the fact check. It's where the party's at. Did you get my text?

[Dax Shepard]

Which one?

[Lily Padman]

I just sent you in a very important text.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my goodness, no.

[Lily Padman]

About five minutes ago.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, I don't think that was me.

[Lily Padman]

Rob. Was it Rob? Were you in. Not in the clubhouse?

[Dax Shepard]

I was in the clubhouse, yeah.

[Lily Padman]

I Could hear you.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wow. I don't even remember if anything. My current assessment is I haven't been blowing my nose much.

[David Cecillo]

Oh, I heard that too. There was a loud one at the end there.

[Dax Shepard]

There was a big one.

[David Cecillo]

It sounded like you might have died.

[Lily Padman]

Exactly. So the text I sent was, are you okay?

[Dax Shepard]

I hear extreme throat clearing. More extreme than normal.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I can confirm.

[Lily Padman]

Thank you.

[David Cecillo]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

I subconsciously did it.

[Lily Padman]

It was real.

[Dax Shepard]

It's hard to be me.

[Lily Padman]

It was scary sounding.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, really? Like you thought you might need to come perform the Heimlich maneuver.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, it sounded like something was stuck in there.

[David Cecillo]

Sound like you're wrestling a bear maybe.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so it was really.

[Lily Padman]

He'd put his finger in his butt and poke their eyes out.

[Dax Shepard]

I had that fantas at the airport in New Orleans. At this restaurant, I heard a woman coughing.

[Lily Padman]

Don't say you want someone to need the Heimlich.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't walk back, but I heard this lady. I didn't know if it was choking or coughing. It was like, three tables over. And I just thought, I bet no one in here is going to be willing to do it. Like, that was just my first thought. Not that I want to. Just, like, I got a hunch if I look over and I see that she's choking, I think her female companion she's dining with isn't going to jump behind her and start, oh, my gosh, ratcheting her diaphragm.

[Lily Padman]

She just didn't give a.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I looked over and she had a, like, paralyzed look on her face.

[Lily Padman]

Wait, which one? The coffer or the.

[Dax Shepard]

The. The associate?

[Lily Padman]

Oh.

[Dax Shepard]

So I was like, she ain't getting up. And then I find myself just trying to evaluate, like, is this a cough or a choke?

[Lily Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

And then it passed.

[Lily Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

But I did have a whole thing. I just, like, you know, your mind thinks so fast. It's like, I saw that. Is that. That. That's her. She's not gonna help. Look around the restaurant. I don't see anyone like, else paying attention. Fuck. If this is. This is a joke, I gotta get on the moon.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah. I will say I'm grateful that there are people like you. I really am. In. In the world and at restaurants, because I don't know know what happens to me. But I, like, you want to disappear. I do. I really don't want to act. It's like when I hear what I think is a car crash.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

And you, of course, run towards, as a lot of people do, and you should. You should go check and well, it's not everyone's nature.

[Dax Shepard]

But I shouldn't be who.

[Lily Padman]

You're praying. Some. But what if no one's. I have to. I could be the only one. It's, like, bad.

[Dax Shepard]

You do have to assess because, look, I'm thrilled. If a doctor stands up and I don't know that I know how to do the Heimlich. Like, I know some attempt at. It'll be better than nothing. That's all. I think.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, you do know. Okay. I can relate to being the friend.

[Dax Shepard]

Uhhuh. Okay.

[Lily Padman]

It's so running into that store, that

[Dax Shepard]

time with Cie, There was a homeless man assaulting people.

[Lily Padman]

He was. Assault. He was. She was coming towards us and screaming at us, and I.

[Dax Shepard]

And you left her.

[Lily Padman]

No, she.

[Dax Shepard]

This is a meme.

[Lily Padman]

Come with me. Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

I thought that might be the example you were.

[Lily Padman]

No, no. Thanks for bringing that up. No, I, I.

[Dax Shepard]

There's more than one occasion.

[Lily Padman]

Everyone can relate to this. When you're at dinner with somebody and then they get, like, the water down the wrong pipe.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, sure.

[Lily Padman]

Okay. And then the coughing, and then, like, they can't stop, and. And you want to. You don't want to make a big deal because you know that I get very codependent. I'm like, they're so embarrassed. So I'm just going to act like I don't even notice, and I'm going to keep talking, and, like, I'm not even.

[Dax Shepard]

That's a good. I, like, I approve of it. That technique.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah. And then. Because when it happens to me, and then people are like, are you okay? I hate that.

[Dax Shepard]

It's worse. Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

And then it gets worse, and you have to say. Yeah, like, you're, like, dying and you're saying. Yeah, really quick question.

[Dax Shepard]

It just popped into my mind. Do you think that I would turn blue before you would? Because you're brown and I'm white? Do you think, like, I have some evolutionary advantage in a choking situation where it would be obvious. More obvious that I know I have a airway obstruction, maybe? Do brown people turn blue? Well, of course.

[Lily Padman]

I mean, if there's no. Oh, my God. Ever.

[Dax Shepard]

Hey, is your chat getting to know you in a way that, like, you, like, without any effort? Like, here's an example.

[Lily Padman]

What is sim.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, you wanted to talk about something just like that?

[Lily Padman]

I have something written down.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, that's. I'll save it. I'll earmark it. I won't put a pin in it for the listener.

[Lily Padman]

We have a. We have a difference of opinion of

[Dax Shepard]

what Those two mean we have different interpretations.

[Lily Padman]

Right? Hold on. I think we should put a pin in the blue skin and go to.

[David Cecillo]

It says no.

[Dax Shepard]

No, what? They can't turn blue or they do not turn blue.

[Lily Padman]

No, that's not what it Sundays.

[Dax Shepard]

You got two different answers.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my God. A white. His white. His chat knows he's white. Yours knows you're brown.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, my God. It says brown skinned people can turn blue or grayish blue due to a map.

[Dax Shepard]

They just have to be dead.

[David Cecillo]

I searched Indian people specifically and it told me Indian people do not turn.

[Lily Padman]

You're lying.

[Dax Shepard]

I can.

[David Cecillo]

I'll put up on my screen.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, my God. Literally.

[Dax Shepard]

Is it on white nationalist.com?

[Lily Padman]

it says it occurs when blood is low. And yeah, get off that site.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, this is just the Google AI.

[David Cecillo]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Indian people do not turn blue with no blood as a natural or racial trait. While certain Hindu deities like Krishna or Shiva are famously depicted with blue skin to symbolize divine cosmic nature or the absorption of poison, this is not a representation of a living biological condition. However, there are rare medical conditions that can cause anyone, regardless of race, to appear bluish.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

Argaria, a rare skin condition caused by silver buildup. Yes. We've seen. Seen this. Too much silver. There was this. There was a movement. I feel like it was primarily in the deep. Right. Where people were drinking colloidal silver.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, I remember that.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. It was like it was real heavy in the.

[Lily Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

During COVID I just love how these medicines are political.

[Lily Padman]

I know, right?

[Dax Shepard]

Like if that's not a mess.

[Lily Padman]

Okay. Yeah, but wait, hold on then. Now there's pins everywhere. Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

No, there's bookmarks everywhere.

[Lily Padman]

Earmarks.

[Dax Shepard]

Earmarks.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, this says yes, brown skin people can turn blue or grayish blue due to a medical condition known as cyanosis. That was on there.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Lily Padman]

Which occurs when blood is low in oxygen. So that's what's happening when you're choking.

[Dax Shepard]

Blood is low in oxygen.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah. So same sitch. Oh, Rob, your eye is literally racist.

[Dax Shepard]

I think your lips also can turn blue if you have too much oxygen.

[Lily Padman]

You want me to look at me. Look it up.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Okay.

[Lily Padman]

Do brown people sleep?

[Dax Shepard]

Well, you're brown. Do lips turn blue?

[David Cecillo]

Your AI knows you.

[Dax Shepard]

That's right.

[Lily Padman]

Well, mine's telling me, don't worry, like, you can turn blue. Like, good news, turn lips turn blue.

[Dax Shepard]

This just too much oxygen.

[Lily Padman]

Blue lips can result from a lack of oxygen in the blood. This may happen we're at a high altitude. Or if you are choking or chronic underlying Condition. Bringing up cyanosis again.

[Dax Shepard]

You were seeing cyanosis. That's a recurrence.

[Lily Padman]

I'm not seeing much about. About. Okay, too much.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, back to your AI knowing you.

[Lily Padman]

Yes. That was so similar. You brought it up. Because today I used email AI for the first time.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, how does that work?

[Lily Padman]

You don't have this yet. Like when you compose, when you're responding to an email, it gives you an email response.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, it suggests an entire email.

[Lily Padman]

Yes. And by the way, I don't know how to turn it off and I actually hate it. Then I keep having to delete it.

[David Cecillo]

This little button.

[Dax Shepard]

Button.

[Lily Padman]

Monica, you. That's where you can turn it off.

[David Cecillo]

That's the AI thing. So if you click that, it should give you settings for it.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, oh, okay. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Because I'm so good with computers.

[Lily Padman]

I know. He is very good. Normally I hate it. I delete it and that adds a step. And I'm already like rushed an email, so I matted it. But today the email was perfect.

[Dax Shepard]

Perfect. Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

And so I sent it.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, here's an okay. God, the earmarks are flying. So we had a real life experience that was hilarious in this exact space, which is I wrote to you, Amy and Ryan, a night in the Seven Kingdom at 7pm tomorrow. Stu, question mark. Right, you wrote back. Yes, please. Ryan wrote back. By trumpets call and clashing goblets, we shall attend the revelries. Cheer mightily for the valiant knight of the seven kingdoms and partake joyfully of the most noble and steamy stew. I mean, I want to the see the delay here. Okay, so he wrote that. It's okay. I wasted no time. That came in at 6:56pm and at 6:56pm I said, did AI write that? It's a masterpiece.

[Lily Padman]

It was so clearly.

[Dax Shepard]

And you go, I was just about to ask that. And I love Ryan Hansen. He wrote absolutely.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And then we got into why you? For you, it was most notable. And steamy stew is in the giveaway. And I said I thought revelries was the smoke and gummy. Yeah, but that's the first time I caught someone coldblooded.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

It was so good. I mean, he's so clever. But it was too fast and good.

[Lily Padman]

It was too fast. It was too old timey words. He would have had to take time to look up a lot of those words.

[Dax Shepard]

I said I didn't think he knows how to use the word revelries.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah. And whatever.

[Dax Shepard]

I, I'm, I'm not. I don't. I wouldn't throw out round revelries that would.

[Lily Padman]

You would want to look it up.

[Dax Shepard]

I would, yeah. I'd have some hesitation.

[Lily Padman]

I.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so these are different AI issues, but okay, exactly.

[Lily Padman]

So you do need to make sure it's something you could have done if

[Dax Shepard]

you're trying to fool people.

[Lily Padman]

Right.

[David Cecillo]

Stay tuned for more Armchair expert if you dare.

[Dax Shepard]

We are supported by ProtonMail. You know how your email address ends up becoming the key to basically your holding digital life? It's tied to your bank accounts, your travel, your shopping, your pictures with your family and kids, almost everything. And most of us have had that same email for years, sometimes decades. It's basically the backbone of your online identity. Here's what bothered me when I found out a lot of email services were built to collect data, not protect it. That's why ProtonMail exists. Proton was created by scientists who wanted to build a better Internet, one where privacy is the, the default, not an afterthought. With ProtonMail, your emails are encrypted, end to end, so not even Proton can read them. No ads, no tracking, just your inbox. Private. And what really got me is what they're doing next. Proton has a campaign called Born Private. The idea that kids shouldn't be tracked from the moment they first go online. Because right now, the second a child gets an email address, the data collection starts. Proton wants to change that. You can sign up for free or reserve an email account for your child so they're protected from data. Day one. If you care about your own privacy or your family's, this is worth looking into. Learn more@proton me dax protonmail. Privacy by default. And then you're being asked to assess how other people assess you. This is, this is, this is theory of mind and metacognition. I can think about how you think, about how I feel. Think.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And so you better be good at that if you're gonna try to sneak one by us.

[Lily Padman]

You know what was kind of interesting? So it signed my name with a lowercase M. Oh, cool. Which I don't do okay yet, but I am pretty willy nilly about my sign offs. Sometimes I'll sign mp, sometimes maybe just M, sometimes no sign off. So maybe it was trying to mimic being cast casual.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I think so. Look, it's good. It's, there's no question about it. It's like, yeah, but here's what I loved. I, I, I, I'm going to screw up the details precisely. But it went something like this. Lincoln and I were looking at a map of Italy and we stumbled upon. And I'm so embarrassed. I've already forgotten the name of it. But there is a country inside of Italy. Do you know this?

[Lily Padman]

Well, I don't know.

[Dax Shepard]

And it's like 48 square miles other than the Vatican. So you have the Vatican, which is its own country inside of Italy. But then you have this other country, like Santa Maria or something.

[David Cecillo]

San Marino.

[Dax Shepard]

San Marino.

[Lily Padman]

Marino.

[Dax Shepard]

San Marino.

[David Cecillo]

Republic of San Marino.

[Dax Shepard]

We're like looking at places to visit. And then there's like, you know on a map where it says Italy? On one side it says Italia and then it says San Marino, but it looks like a city. And I'm like, why is the city. We're both like, what is the city? And she's like, I think it's a country. I'm like, I don't think there's a two mile long country in the middle. And so we look it up. Sure enough, it's a country. It had been a country since the 1300s, and Italy only became a country in the 1800s. And they had all these diplomatic relationships, so they never absorbed it. They always honored it. So there's this tiny little country.

[Lily Padman]

Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

So then we got interested in what are the five tiniest countries in the world. Oh, and the Vaticans, of course. It's less than a square mile. San Marino, I think was fourth. Lichtenstein is in there.

[Lily Padman]

Really? It's that small?

[Dax Shepard]

It's very, very, very small. And Monaco, of course.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, sure. Been there.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. That's a tiny little country. And then once it had that list, it said, knowing how much you like F1, would you like me to tell you what drivers live in Monaco?

[Lily Padman]

Oh, no. And you weren't even talking about F1.

[Dax Shepard]

But I loved that because that could have been a next search. So it's like it wasn't just answering my question. It was encouraging me to learn more, but it knows my interests. I loved that.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, God.

[Dax Shepard]

You don't like that?

[Lily Padman]

Well, because it's like. It's like. It's. It's tax telling you what to think. Oh, now you're gonna think about F1 right now?

[Dax Shepard]

No, it's. It's trying to predict what I'll be interested in. And it's doing a good job.

[Lily Padman]

What if it didn't know that you had a New Year's resolution, Lunar New Year's resolution, to never think about F1 ever again? It was destroying your life. You were addicted.

[Dax Shepard]

And then they would have said, why did you ask what the schedule was Yesterday for the F1?

[Lily Padman]

Because you slipped off the wagon, but you're trying to get back on.

[Dax Shepard]

I could tell it, hey, I'm trying to quit. My obsession with F1 would immediately adjust. I know, but it carries out whatever your desires are.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, but your desire versus your. Your need versus your want might be different.

[Dax Shepard]

Your first order versus your second order.

[Lily Padman]

Priorities. Yeah. Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

Wowers. What else did we put up?

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, there were a few pins.

[Dax Shepard]

You're freaking out. When people cough, you go invisible. Yeah. So your friend was coughing and you kept asking questions. And then I thought, could you turn blue?

[Lily Padman]

That's right.

[Dax Shepard]

And we're not. We haven't determined.

[Lily Padman]

But also, you know, if you're choking. Choking for real. Choking. Need the Heimlich. Choking. There's no air through your path.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

And so you can't cough. So you could still be in a lot of distress.

[Dax Shepard]

I also think you could have reduced air. I think you could have 80% blockage. 90.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah. But if you have 100, then you need the Heimlich.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Lily Padman]

If you have 50, there are other things you can do to get the thing out. And you don't need the Heimlich because you can still get oxygen.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you. When you hear Heimlich, do you not think about how close it is to hein lick?

[Lily Padman]

No, I don't.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you, Rob?

[David Cecillo]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

Like a. Like a button on my own.

[David Cecillo]

Like a hiney lick.

[Dax Shepard]

Like licking someone's hiney?

[Lily Padman]

What?

[Dax Shepard]

No, the hindlick maneuver. Type in hindlick reme, see how many results there are.

[Lily Padman]

Okay, first of all, I've never heard it called heinous hind. Only hiney is not hein.

[Dax Shepard]

You're hindquarters. You've heard that?

[Lily Padman]

I thought that was hind.

[Dax Shepard]

Your hindquarters.

[David Cecillo]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

Okay, Is H e I n e y or something like that?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I don't know a lot about heiny, but I. I know hind quarters. And so hind lick maneuver sounds like in someone's choking. And you quickly lick their heiney, which freaks them out. Out. And then they spit out the cube. I always picture a cube of steak in someone's throat. Do you have a. Do you go to a specific item?

[Lily Padman]

Food. Oh, that's funny. No, I don't really think specifically, but yeah, in the movies it's always steak,

[Dax Shepard]

big Cuba steak or chicken or something.

[Lily Padman]

Wow. Hind.

[Dax Shepard]

The hindlick maneuver. I should patent that.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, my God. Oh, God. Guess what?

[Dax Shepard]

What? What?

[Lily Padman]

Chicken butt. I started creatine last night.

[David Cecillo]

You did?

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, tell me more.

[Lily Padman]

How do you think I look?

[Dax Shepard]

Like you have a lot of water in your muscles and in your brain.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, it brings water there.

[Dax Shepard]

That's what it does.

[Lily Padman]

Well, that's antithetical to my water drinking.

[Dax Shepard]

No, I would argue with your reduced water consumption, you should have something helping you keep water in your. Your muscles.

[Lily Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

And then I don't know the function of how it has all these huge impacts on your brain, which. Yeah, that's data about it. But I don't know if the mechanism is also allowing more water to be in your brain cells or not. But I do know that that's why it works for muscles.

[Lily Padman]

Do I have, like, big muscles today?

[Dax Shepard]

Did you lift? You can't just take it. I am curious how much you've used your gym. Gym? Because you. Monica's a nice gym now.

[Lily Padman]

I know. I want to use it.

[Dax Shepard]

I want to.

[Lily Padman]

I've only lived there a month. Give me a break.

[Dax Shepard]

You haven't, like, got thought, oh, I should wander around there?

[Lily Padman]

I think it all the time.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Lily Padman]

I just don't do it.

[Dax Shepard]

You don't do it?

[Lily Padman]

My dad used it.

[Dax Shepard]

He did?

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, great. Did he get a good pump in?

[Lily Padman]

He used the treadmill.

[Dax Shepard]

He used the treadmill.

[Lily Padman]

So I took it last night after my long walk.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Lily Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

You're feeling like you're. Now you're on a virtuous cycle.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Upward trajectory.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah. And also, how long was the walk? It wasn't that long. Oh, are you doing this? You're poking holes in my virtuous psych.

[Dax Shepard]

That is. That presumes that I think it was low. That's not my position.

[Lily Padman]

I felt like it was not a long enough walk.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Did you walk in the neighborhood?

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, fun, right?

[Lily Padman]

Yeah. Yeah, I love it. Oh, what a blessing. Really hot out last night, but it was great. I walked for 35 minutes.

[Dax Shepard]

You did. That's great.

[Lily Padman]

It's not my normal. I like to go an hour, but I was getting too hot, so.

[Dax Shepard]

So it's been very warm here in California.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And so we have taken two walks this last five days in down to Hillhurst to have dinner.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, no. Nice.

[Dax Shepard]

Which is shockingly fun.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, yeah, it's. It's easy.

[Dax Shepard]

It's shockingly fun. And on the way home two nights ago, you know, all I do is scan for threats. And one of the threats I scan for is like, paparazzi. I don't want any pictures of our kids. So I'm constantly looking. That dude got a camera. Is that right? A little bit of a preoccupation. So I said to the family, we're all walking. I said, gang. Okay, here is the game plan. If I spot a paparazzi ahead of us, I'm gonna scream, baby duck formation.

[David Cecillo]

Oh, wow.

[Dax Shepard]

And then mom gets directly behind me. Lincoln, you get behind mom. Delta, you get behind Lincoln. And all the photographer will see is a picture of me walking down the street. I said to them, which is valueless. Okay, so no one's gonna buy a picture.

[Lily Padman]

What about from the side?

[Dax Shepard]

So baby duck formation can just pivot to wherever the photographer tries to go.

[Lily Padman]

Okay. Got it.

[Dax Shepard]

Became this hilarious game. They wanted me to run drills, so it just became me screaming baby duck formation a lot. And everyone's scampering to get in position. And it didn't go well. I'm glad we ran drills. Lincoln constantly was. You know, she wanted to be directly behind me, I think. Oh.

[Lily Padman]

She wanted to be number two in the line.

[Dax Shepard]

It's like he's a first place finisher type of person, so it's like, whatever. I'm supposed. You know? And then I forget why we had to do a reverse baby back baby duck. Reverse baby duck formation.

[Lily Padman]

Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

That one doesn't make any sense. But we had to run it just to get good at the drill.

[Lily Padman]

Well, yeah, you got to practice lots of iterations because you just don't know what will happen.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, it's very fun.

[Lily Padman]

Anyway, I love walks. And I took. So I took my walk, my hot walk. It was about 35 minutes. And then I got back and I did. I was like, I'm tired. And then I was like. Like, I'm really have not been moving my body enough. If I. If I feel tired.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

And then I took a hot bath.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my gosh. It went the other direction.

[Lily Padman]

Okay. Because I wanted to continue my sweat.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Lily Padman]

So I took a hot bath, which is really nice. Also shorter than I wanted because I was hot.

[Dax Shepard]

Too hot.

[Lily Padman]

And then I took my craving to remind the listener.

[Dax Shepard]

Also, you don't ever feel hot.

[Lily Padman]

I know.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

If I were you and I was feeling hot, I might have, like. Like health concerns.

[Lily Padman]

Well, I. Yeah. So I took my creatine to cool yourself down. Yeah. And I'm. I guess I'm taking it for my brain.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

More than my body. So I can take it without lifting. I should still lift.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. It's great for your brain, regardless.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah. That's what I want to do. And for perimenopause.

[Dax Shepard]

But you should definitely start lifting.

[Lily Padman]

I know.

[Dax Shepard]

It's in your house.

[Lily Padman]

I know. Know.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm sorry.

[Lily Padman]

I know. Okay.

[David Cecillo]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

I Want to start seeing some like, some guns? Look, I wanted to be like, oh wow, look, Mon's got some guns.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, I have a new freckle. Oh, I probably got it last night cuz it was hot out pissed.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, want to do some facts?

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, we're going to do some facts now.

[Dax Shepard]

Now you don't know if I'm looking at your hair or your shoulder.

[Lily Padman]

You're looking at neither.

[Dax Shepard]

You passed the test. I was looking you directly in the eye.

[Lily Padman]

Yep. You can see more than the game's

[Dax Shepard]

not as fun as I wanted to be. I need some mirror. I need some like cop mirror sunglasses.

[Lily Padman]

Okay, this was another huge sim. Unexpected. This really is doppel month. At the end of this episode you said, does anyone ever tell you you get James Hatfield? And he says, yeah, once every three weeks.

[David Cecillo]

Oh, you're right.

[Dax Shepard]

God, I hope it continues.

[Lily Padman]

And that was a pop out. I mean. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure.

[Dax Shepard]

Speaking of which, I already told you that Metallica is going to the Sphere.

[Lily Padman]

That's exciting.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh my God. Me, Aaron and Aaron.

[Lily Padman]

You're gonna go?

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, yes. I can't imagine a funner night to be had than the three of us at Metallica.

[Lily Padman]

That's a great plan.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, I can't wait. We gotta wait all the way to November. Oh, or October. I think they're there like October through something.

[Lily Padman]

Okay. That's so fun.

[Dax Shepard]

You didn't happen to see them? It wouldn't be in your algorithm. The, the announcement when they did it. But they made the outside of the globe. Metallica.

[Lily Padman]

And they play.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh. And the song they played. Oh, so cool.

[Lily Padman]

I'm trying to think like what band would I see there that would like get me there?

[Dax Shepard]

I mean, you should go be willing to see anybody there. Because. Because. Because I went to see U.

[Lily Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

And although I was a great U2 fan in my youth, I wouldn't necessarily go see them in concert. But I was like, well, I want to go to the Sphere and the Sphere makes it.

[Lily Padman]

I know. I'm just like the Sphere makes. Oh, that's cool.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, look at that.

[Lily Padman]

That'll be really fun.

[Dax Shepard]

That's so cool, isn't it?

[Lily Padman]

It is. I just feel anxious about the Sphere for some reason.

[Dax Shepard]

A lot of stimuli.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, I'm a little nervous. I'll have a seizure.

[Dax Shepard]

I think that's a fair. Maybe you should. You should do mushrooms are acid to help with that.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, maybe so. I would, I would maybe see Coldplay. There.

[Dax Shepard]

There you go.

[Lily Padman]

I love Coldplay. You know what? Everyone wants to On Coldplay. As if like they didn't also love Coldplay.

[Dax Shepard]

Who doesn't like Coldplay?

[Lily Padman]

You'll just hear when people talk about it like they're the type of person that likes Coldplay. And I'm like, oh my God.

[Dax Shepard]

See, they're. They're every type of person.

[Lily Padman]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

The only knock on Coldplay I've ever heard is from like super music nerds that are like, they're just radio. They just ripped off Radiohead, right, Rob? Yeah, yeah, that. That's the complaint against Coldplay in the music geek world. Well, but I'm like, get real, everybody.

[Lily Padman]

Whatever. I'm here to say I love Coldplay.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, I love Coldplay. I would say as a group, they have had more songs that have ended up on repeat for me for months on. On it.

[Lily Padman]

Same. Okay, well, anyway, so if Coldplay goes, then maybe I'll go.

[Dax Shepard]

You'll be there.

[David Cecillo]

Taylor Swift you'd see there, right?

[Lily Padman]

Oh, yeah. Yep. Okay. The Hershey School. Milton Hershey School.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

Cost free boarding school for low income children is supported by a massive endowment exceeding $17 billion funded by a controlling stake in the Hershey company. Established in 1909. The trust holds approximately 28 of the company's stock, generating immense wealth for the school's operations. It's really cool. I mean, I know it's complicated but

[Dax Shepard]

man, he had a bad experience. But I think he's also good about saying there are other experiences to have there.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, Yeah, I thought that was really great.

[Dax Shepard]

Although I don't know why it's not Hogwarts. It sounds like it's funded enough to be straight up. Hogwarts sounded, but the experience didn't sound Hogwarts. Well, his maybe like way more advisors, but that kind of money we might get like, you know, a buddy for every four kids or something.

[Lily Padman]

Well, in Hogwarts they have a headmaster. You know, they have like a house per lady or whatever. Sometimes they're bad even in Hogwarts. Okay, Remember that Umbridge. Remember Umbridge?

[Dax Shepard]

Totally. That's all I think about is Umbridge.

[Lily Padman]

That's all I think about. You talked about how rich the candy like people were.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, Wrigley's.

[Lily Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Mars.

[Lily Padman]

Mars is still the Mars are the second richest family in America.

[Dax Shepard]

Family, family.

[Lily Padman]

Not person, but family. That's from Business Insider.

[Dax Shepard]

Behind the Waltons, right?

[Lily Padman]

I don't know.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, the. The Walmart dynasty.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah, I know that.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, sorry I brought it up.

[Lily Padman]

I already know that, but I don't know if that's the one. But it probably is.

[Dax Shepard]

They always make. Like, when there's a top hundred billionaire, there's like five. One Walton's on the list.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, here are the 25 richest families in the U.S. this is from Yahoo. Finance. This is 2021. A lot's change.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure.

[Lily Padman]

Okay, I'm gonna go to the front here. I gotta go from 25. It won't. The Ga. Gallo.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, Ernest Gallo. Wine.

[Lily Padman]

Joseph Gallo.

[Dax Shepard]

Wine people. Right.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah. Wine business. Drink prohibition. That was good. How'd you know that?

[Dax Shepard]

Thank you. Ernest Gallo.

[Lily Padman]

It says Joseph Gallo.

[Dax Shepard]

I know, but the brand is Ernest.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, yeah. Ernest. Yeah. Cutting that. You shouldn't. You should know more about wine than me. The Roland's family. Do you know what that is?

[Dax Shepard]

Rollins.

[Lily Padman]

Or Rollins, maybe?

[Dax Shepard]

Rollins family.

[Lily Padman]

No, Rollins Broadcasting. Oh, a radio and TV biz.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Lily Padman]

Okay, then the Goldman family. Goldman Sachs, I'm guessing. Yes. Soul Goldman. Stryker family. They're from Michigan.

[Dax Shepard]

Are they an automotive supply company?

[Lily Padman]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

This makes no clear seating.

[Lily Padman]

An orthopedic surgeon. Oh. To decided to invent his own medical devices to meet his parents. His parents? His patients. Needs. One of them is the mobile hospital bed.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, boy.

[Lily Padman]

That's like when the people made the Ziploc bag, you know?

[Dax Shepard]

Or the Styrofoam cup that drops down in a coffee machine.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, that's cool. Okay, The Kathy family. Chick Fil A. Ah. Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, great.

[Lily Padman]

Ziff family. Media conglomerate. Ziff Davis, llc. Okay. Dorrance family. Do you know what this is?

[Dax Shepard]

Dorrance.

[Lily Padman]

Uhhuh.

[Dax Shepard]

No.

[Lily Padman]

Condensed soup.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay. But not Campbell's. Oh, sure, of course.

[Lily Padman]

Horse.

[Dax Shepard]

Trusted brand.

[Lily Padman]

Very most trusted hunt.

[Dax Shepard]

Ketchup family, actually.

[Lily Padman]

Cotton trader. Let's see. Oil. Oh, this is a different hunt.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Lily Padman]

Dupont. Yeah, we know that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. 3M.

[Lily Padman]

Ooh, scary laboratories. What's it called again?

[Dax Shepard]

Fox Catcher.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah. Steve Corral. Channing Tatum.

[Dax Shepard]

Beautiful film. Oh, Mark Ruffalo. Bringing all the heart.

[Lily Padman]

God. I know. Okay, Bush family.

[David Cecillo]

Beer.

[Dax Shepard]

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.

[Lily Padman]

That's right. Anheuser Bush. Oh, no. Butt family. B. He invented farts.

[Dax Shepard]

Wow. Wow. Those are free, aren't they? I'm rich. If they're. If you can charge for them, I

[Lily Padman]

guess it's a grocery store.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay.

[Lily Padman]

But, like, I'm not. Never heard of it.

[Dax Shepard]

Maybe they own. Like, they owned Kroger or something.

[Lily Padman]

I know, but it doesn't say that. Yeah, it says HEB Celebrated as one of America's top gross.

[David Cecillo]

Hb.

[Dax Shepard]

That's a Southern chain.

[Lily Padman]

Never heard of it. Okay, I've never seen one.

[Dax Shepard]

You haven't seen HB I think Texas.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, that makes sense. Marshall family. Marshalls. The discount store.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, originally. Department.

[Lily Padman]

It's not that Brown family.

[Dax Shepard]

You would have his ups.

[Lily Padman]

Brown Foreman Corp. Kentucky based spirits and wine producer that gave us Jack Daniels. Finlandia. That's cool. And George Foreman is involved or, you know, is part of that. Hurst.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Lily Padman]

Duncan family.

[Dax Shepard]

Not Dunkin Donuts.

[Lily Padman]

No. Pipeline. Jack. Giant Enterprise Products Partners.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Lily Padman]

Newhouse family.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, Clue.

[Lily Padman]

Advanced Publications. Publishing company that owns Conda Nast. That's cool. Pritzker.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, I feel like I should know that one.

[Lily Padman]

Hyatt created the Hyatt.

[Dax Shepard]

Hyatt Regency.

[Lily Padman]

And it invested in industrial holding company. Marmon Group.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[David Cecillo]

I don't know.

[Lily Padman]

Cox family. Cable evening news. Yeah. Johnson family.

[Dax Shepard]

Johnson. Yeah. Very trusted brand. Cotton swabs.

[Lily Padman]

Well, I don't. I don't know if this is Johnson and Johnson because it's the Johnson's own half, almost half of mutual fund giant Fidelity Investments.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Not those Johnsons.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, S.C. johnson is next.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wonderful.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah. Windex, Glass, Ziploc.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, they're basically Proctor and Gamble.

[Lily Padman]

Size 37. Bill.

[Dax Shepard]

Bill.

[Lily Padman]

37. Bill Lauder. Estee Lauder.

[Dax Shepard]

Nice.

[Lily Padman]

Cargle. McMillan family. Grain storage business in Iowa, of course.

[Dax Shepard]

Wow.

[Lily Padman]

Mars family number three we got there.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. How much?

[Lily Padman]

94 billion.

[Dax Shepard]

Nice.

[Lily Padman]

Congratulations, guys, to the Coke family. 100 billion.

[Dax Shepard]

Wow.

[Lily Padman]

Number one. You got it. 247 billion.

[David Cecillo]

Yeah.

[Lily Padman]

I wish the Costco family had more because they're a really upstanding.

[Dax Shepard]

They are. They're great. They're great.

[Lily Padman]

All right, let's see. That was unexpected. Didn't mean to do that.

[Dax Shepard]

I'll add a cool thing to Walton's, too.

[Lily Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

To get their inheritance. Inheritance. They have to do a public works project in Bentonville, where they're headquartered. So Bentonville has all this impossibly great stuff because of this weird.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, that's funny.

[Dax Shepard]

So they have, like, a crazy good museum with, like, an impossibly good art collection. Oh, they have a crazy public parks bicycle network. Like, they have a bunch of cool things because they have to take on a public works project to get. Get their money. I like that.

[Lily Padman]

That's cool. I wish it could be countrywide and not just in Bentonville.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, you know, that's a conservative liberal thing where conservatives believe you make your community good. And if everyone makes their community good, the whole place will be good.

[Lily Padman]

Everyone can make it good. Because I don't have $247 billion.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, then you got to move to Bentonville.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, my God. Okay. How much was $50,000. That's what he was making. And 96.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I said, like, 200, maybe.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah. 1349.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay.

[Lily Padman]

Okay. Well, look what we haven't done in a while. Bitcoin.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, yeah. We missed a huge cliff.

[Lily Padman]

Oh, we missed. I know.

[Dax Shepard]

Around the super bowl, it lost, like, half of its value, and we did not report on that. Well, it's probably smart. It's too. Too sensitive at that time.

[Lily Padman]

Well, it's. It's up today.

[Dax Shepard]

What's it at?

[Lily Padman]

It said 70,392.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Lily Padman]

But when we were talking, it was

[Dax Shepard]

like, 106 or 112 or something.

[Lily Padman]

Okay. The Restricted Boltzmann machine. He said he thought it was out of Jeff Hinton's Lab, but wasn't 100% sure. But he is, right.

[David Cecillo]

Oh, God.

[Lily Padman]

But I'm going to give credit to Paul Smolenski. He rose to prominence after Jeffrey Hinton and collaborators used fast learning algorithms for them in the mid 2000s.

[David Cecillo]

Okay.

[Lily Padman]

And then that's it.

[Dax Shepard]

That's everything.

[Lily Padman]

The last one was doppelgangers, but I already talked about it.

[Dax Shepard]

Cover. Already covered that.

[Lily Padman]

Yep.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, great.

[Lily Padman]

Yeah. Really good stuff.

[Dax Shepard]

Love you.

[Lily Padman]

Love you.