Elizabeth Smart

Summary

Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard

Guest: Elizabeth Smart

Episode Date: January 21, 2026
Podcast Theme: Deep, vulnerable, and insightful conversation with Elizabeth Smart about her abduction, survival, recovery, and ongoing advocacy, marking Armchair Expert’s 1,000th episode.

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Episode Overview

This episode marks the milestone 1,000th episode of Armchair Expert, with Elizabeth Smart as the guest. The conversation explores her traumatic abduction in 2002, her survival and rescue, the failures and challenges of the investigation, her resilience, and how she’s used her experience to advocate for other survivors. Dax and Monica approach the topic with warmth, candor, and respect, balancing the gravity of the subject with empathy and a focus on healing and growth.

Trigger Warning: Discussion includes references to kidnapping, sexual assault, survival trauma, and the aftereffects of such events.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Reflecting on 1,000 Episodes and Elizabeth Smart’s Story

[00:34]

• Dax and Monica celebrate the 1,000th episode and introduce Elizabeth Smart as a “remarkably well-adjusted” survivor.
• Both hosts recall the intense media coverage of Elizabeth’s 2002 abduction; Monica, the same age as Elizabeth, recalls the collective fear of kidnapping prevalent at the time.

2. Elizabeth’s Mindset About Telling Her Story

[09:06]

• Elizabeth is open about discussing her trauma for advocacy, determined to help other survivors feel less alone.

“I also saw this as an opportunity to reach out to other survivors, other victims, to let them know that they're not alone.” —Elizabeth [10:54]

• On survivor guilt and shame:

“When I see too many survivors of sexual violence, they're alive, but they stop living... that loss of life I find heartbreaking.” —Elizabeth [11:52]

3. Early Life and Night of Abduction

[12:02 – 15:54]

• Grew up in a close-knit Mormon family in Salt Lake City.
• Night of the abduction: normal evening, grandfather’s death, and sharing a bed with her 9-year-old sister, Mary Catherine.
• Elizabeth recounts waking up to a man (Brian David Mitchell) with a knife at her neck.

“The next thing I remember was waking up to a man standing above me, knife at my neck, telling me to get up and get out of bed.” —Elizabeth [14:23]

• Mary Catherine pretended to be asleep, later bravely alerting their parents.

4. Immediate Aftermath & Family Ordeal

[19:25]

• Investigation focused on clearing the family, causing emotional turmoil.
• Dax references the “painful but required” scrutiny given high rates of familial involvement in such cases.

5. Failures & Frustrations in the Investigation

[23:47]

• Police incorrectly dismiss physical evidence due to micro-analysis.
• Dogs lose her scent near a trailhead; Elizabeth clarifies she never entered a car and later wonders about lost opportunities for rescue.

6. Elizabeth’s Perspective After Watching Her Family’s Ordeal

[20:10, 20:36]

• As a parent, she empathizes more deeply with her family’s anguish during her captivity.

7. The Abduction and Life in Captivity

[26:42 – 53:26]

• The long, grueling mountain hike (3.5 miles) under threat, confusion, and survival mode mindsets.
• Meeting Wanda Barzee ("Hepzibah"); initial hope dashed by Barzee’s aggression and domination.

“She leads me inside of the tent... She sits me down on an upturned bucket... tries to undress me...” —Elizabeth [41:22]

• Brian David Mitchell’s cultish religious justifications:

“I seal you to me as my wife before God and his angels as my witnesses.” —Elizabeth [44:08]

• Details of repeated sexual assault, psychological manipulation, enforced nudity, and forced religious rituals.
• Complex trauma dynamics with Barzee (“handmaiden/servant” role) and survival strategies, such as appeasing both captors to minimize harm.

“If they can do this and get away with it, why can’t I?” —Elizabeth, on using “religious justification” to influence her captors [60:14]

8. Opportunities for Rescue & Missed Chances

[54:53 – 57:04]

• Close calls with law enforcement:
  • Brought to a house party – host finds her situation odd but doesn’t intervene.
  • Salt Lake City library: homicide detective approaches but is manipulated by Mitchell; Elizabeth is too terrified to break her captors’ hold.

“Wanda Barzee… her hand just clamped down on my thigh and I was just paralyzed...” —Elizabeth [56:16]

• After 3 months, the captors bring Elizabeth into public scenes wearing veils, and she’s almost recognized; frustration over repeated near-misses for rescue.

9. Mary Catherine Remembers the Abductor

[34:59–39:14]

• Months after the abduction, Mary Catherine recalls “Emmanuel,” a one-time handyman at their house.
• Police are slow to act, so John Walsh (America’s Most Wanted) releases the composite sketch on Larry King Live, leading to the identification of Brian David Mitchell.

10. Elizabeth’s Rescue

[65:54–71:39]

• Returning to Salt Lake, the captors and Elizabeth hitchhike (this time out of their distinctive robes).
• Police separate Elizabeth during questioning; she responds using cultish language (“thou sayest”).
• It’s only when reunited with her father at the station that she finally lets herself believe she is safe.

“It wasn’t until my dad was there... He’s not going to let anyone hurt me.” —Elizabeth [71:29]

11. Aftermath, Therapy, and Advocacy

[71:53 – 77:14]

• Details eight-year legal saga—Mitchell sentenced to life, Barzee sentenced to 15 years (now released).
• Struggled with the expectations and stigma of purity and survivor “worthiness.”
• Initially refused therapy due to stigma and a negative early experience, but parents supported her autonomy.

12. Elizabeth’s Message on Recovery & Agency

[77:59–78:46]

• On letting go of “should have/could have” survivor guilt:

“You can kill yourself with ‘I should have done this...’ But a hero is someone that can survive and make it to today.” —Dax [77:59] “Each one of us has survived our worst day.” —Elizabeth [78:03]

13. Resilience, Family, and Living As “Elizabeth Smart”

[79:02–80:54]

• Discusses the public nature of her identity and how she separates it from her true self.
• On love and worthiness: her (now) husband from Scotland didn’t know her story.

“If anyone ever judges me for [being a survivor], they're not worthy of my time.” —Elizabeth [80:06]

14. Religion, Gender, and Reflection

[80:56–83:25]

• Dax and Elizabeth discuss how religion was misused by her captor, and the complex legacy of religious upbringing.

“Now as a grown up and looking back... I just know how quickly people take religion to fanaticism.” —Elizabeth [83:25]

15. Generational Healing and Parenting After Trauma

[87:27–89:10]

• How her own children process her experience; her firm boundaries (“no sleepovers ever”).
• Striving for balance between vigilance and allowing her children to have normal experiences.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Survivor Advocacy

• “If someone's story is really meaningful or impactful, I'll remember that a lot better than if it's just, like, a fact.” —Elizabeth [10:41]

On Survival & Guilt

• “I think one of the saddest things I see is... too many survivors of sexual violence, they're alive, but they stop living.” —Elizabeth [11:28]

On the Night of Her Abduction

• “Waking up to a man standing above me, knife at my neck, telling me to get up and get out of bed.” —Elizabeth [14:23]

On Family Trauma

• “Now as a parent, I don't know whose was worse, but I know I would do whatever it took to protect my children.” —Elizabeth [20:36]

On Psychological Survival

• “It's just doing whatever you have to do to survive.”—Elizabeth, discussing “appease/fawn” response vs. Stockholm syndrome [59:56]

On Shame and Worth

• “If I managed to survive this... would I just become a pariah?” —Elizabeth [64:47]
• “If anyone ever judges me for that, they're not worthy of my time.” —Elizabeth [80:06]

On Parental Support

• “I will forever be grateful to my parents... they gave me that choice [whether to participate in therapy].” —Elizabeth [74:33]

On Reframing Her Story

• “You changed your story from ‘you should have done this’... to ‘you can finish this. You're strong. ... You can survive anything that comes your way.’” —Dax referencing Elizabeth’s documentary [77:59]

On Generational Healing

• “My dad's here. He's not gonna let anyone hurt me.” —Elizabeth [71:39]

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Timestamps of Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |--------------|-----------------------------------------------------| | 00:34–04:03 | 1,000th episode intro, Elizabeth’s background | | 09:06 | Advocacy, breaking silence, mission | | 14:23 | Night of abduction, details of kidnapping | | 19:25 | Family ordeal and investigation | | 23:47 | Police investigation failures, scent dogs | | 26:42 | The mountain hike, realizing she wouldn’t be rescued| | 34:59 | Mary Catherine’s memory triggers break in the case | | 41:22 | Elizabeth’s first moments in captivity | | 54:53 | Near rescue in public/library | | 65:54 | The rescue: police questioning, “thou sayest” | | 71:53 | Aftermath, legal process, therapy | | 77:59 | Guilt, healing, survivor message | | 80:06 | On love and worthiness | | 83:25 | Religion and fanaticism | | 87:27 | Parenting post-trauma | | 104:07–144:34| (Fact check & lighter fact check banter) |

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Overall Tone & Takeaways

• Empathetic, unvarnished, and honest.
• Elizabeth is candid about the darkest moments and the complexities of healing, but is equally open about resilience, parenthood, and her refusal to be defined by her trauma.
• She reframes her story from shame and “what ifs” to hope and self-compassion—an empowering message for survivors and for anyone who’s suffered.

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Resources and Further Links

• Elizabeth Smart Foundation
• Documentary: "Kidnapped: Elizabeth Smart" (Netflix; referenced throughout)
• Smart Defense: Program combining empowerment and trauma-informed self-defense for women

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Closing Reflections

“Each one of us has survived our worst day.” —Elizabeth Smart [78:03]
“A hero is someone that can survive and make it to today.” —Dax Shepard [77:59]

Elizabeth’s ability to transform trauma into advocacy, to speak with such clarity on shame, survival, faith, and parenting, and her ongoing resilience made this a landmark Armchair Expert episode—both harrowing and deeply hopeful.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. Experts on Expert. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Happy 1000th episode.

[B]

Can you even believe it?

[A]

I can't believe it. I think of it very much like AA, which is like, you can't stay sober for 30 years, but you can stay sober for a day.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then you can kind of blink. And it is 30 years.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like if you told us, like, okay, man, you're gonna. You're gonna do a thousand, I'd be like, that's too. We can't.

[B]

Like, we're not doing it.

[A]

We can't. We're not capable of that.

[B]

Yeah. But look at it.

[A]

And one episode at a time, we got to a thousand. That is very exciting.

[B]

I'm proud of us.

[A]

Me too. And then what an incredible episode to have for our. Our thousandth Elizabeth Smart. Which, you know, I think if you were on planet Earth in 2002, you knew about Elizabeth Smart. But if you like me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And knew someone was abducted. But that's where it ends.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This story is so unbelievable in so many ways. And there's an incredible doc out now on Netflix called Kidnapped Elizabeth Smart. And it's incredibly well made documentary.

[B]

This is such an interesting conversation and very meaningful and heavy.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. So I'm sometime hesitant to give trigger warnings for all episodes, but boy, oh, boy, this one warrants a major, major trigger warning.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Obviously, there's abduction, there's sexual assault. There's a lot, a lot, a lot of darkness in this story. But I think you, like us, will find Elizabeth Smart to be impossibly well adjusted and thriving.

[B]

Has a positive outlook.

[A]

Yeah. It's remarkable. So, so, so, so grateful to her for telling us her whole story. It's a hard one, but it's a great episode.

[B]

And we're thankful to the Armchairs for sticking around for a thousand episodes. We love you guys so much.

[A]

And even the ones that came in Covid. If you're around for 500, a big high five.

[B]

If you're around for one. We'll take it.

[A]

We' take it. All right. Please enjoy Elizabeth Smart.

[B]

Hi, we're back right after the intro. This is very special because it's our thousandth episode.

[A]

Yeah. And you wanted to commemorate it. I did.

[B]

Because it's really special and it's really rare.

[A]

It is. And it'll only happen once. Monica. This will be the only episode that's 1,000.

[B]

That's right. And I am very proud of us for just sticking to it for this Long. But mostly just thankful to the Armchairies because without them, we would not be able to still be here.

[A]

Yeah, they've really hung around for a lot of them.

[B]

They've been on the ride with us and it's so, so fun. So I want to do something special and do a little very small merch collection to celebrate the thousandth episode. So there is a T shirt on the site that's very fun.

[A]

It requires fast math, which is.

[B]

That's right. Which is.

[A]

Made me happ.

[B]

That's for you. That's for Dax. And on the back of that shirt, it has all of the thousand guests, which is very fun.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And then there's a really fun sweatshirt and another sweatshirt, too. I'm not going to give it all away, but go check it out.

[A]

And a pair of engraved brass knuckles.

[B]

Nope, that's not a box.

[A]

That didn't make it.

[B]

No, that didn't make the.

[A]

Cut the switchblade in there.

[B]

Nope. That also, we're sticking with the classics, the clothes.

[A]

So go to armchairexpertpod.com and go to the store. And it'll be there.

[B]

It'll be there. And go ahead and get on the list and you'll get your thousandth episode merch. And we're happy to have you.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

So I set the bar, which you.

[A]

Always do that to me. And then I look like a pervert. What nicknames did you grow up with?

[B]

No, Beth or Bit.

[C]

We have a friend named Bit, which I think is so cute.

[A]

I loved a girl across the street from me growing up named Betsy, and I think her name was Elizabeth.

[B]

Is Betsy the I could.

[C]

I mean, I've heard people go by Betsy.

[B]

Yeah, there's a lot, Lizzy.

[A]

Sky is the limit.

[C]

With Elizabeth it is. But my mom was always like, you are Elizabeth. You will go by Elizabeth.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And so that's just what I've always been.

[A]

Now I'm lazy. If someone has more than two syllables in your name, I'm like, we gotta get down to one. Maybe because I'm Dax.

[B]

Yeah, you're just projecting, Moni.

[A]

I'd prefer just Mon.

[B]

That's two. Probably you could have done Mon. Mon's very popular Monica cup.

[C]

Too much.

[A]

That's a lot.

[B]

Too much. Is Elizabeth 3 Elizabeth. Elizabeth 4. But Elizabeth is such a pretty name. I understand why not wanting to shorten it up. I like the name Elizabeth.

[A]

When is the last time you did an interview?

[C]

Right before.

[B]

Right before you came from one.

[A]

Are you exhausted?

[C]

No, I'm good.

[A]

Okay. What was the other one?

[C]

It was just in house at Netflix.

[A]

Oh, sure. I watched Kidnap last night, and I made a really kind of questionable decision. I was like, I'm gonna watch it with my daughters.

[B]

Oh, I was wondering.

[A]

So I watched it with my 11 and 12 year old, and we all snuggled on the couch. And ultimately, I'm really glad I did. It started a lot of conversations that I think are really good to have. And they got to see me ball at the end excessively. And they love that. The end me up. I'll get to specifically what that was about it. But I guess first and foremost, I was aware of all this and yet, at the same time, not. This is 2002, so I was 27. I just wasn't dialed into everything that was going on. But you and Monica are the exact same age, virtually two months apart.

[B]

I was very aware of it.

[A]

Did this give rise to your unnatural fear of being kidnapped? Would you credit Elizabeth?

[B]

So I think I already had it. I don't feel like people these days talk about kidnappings a lot, but it was being talked about back then. It was like a fear.

[A]

Do you know anything about the statistics? Is it more or less? Does it change?

[C]

I couldn't tell you if it was more or less now, but I know a person goes missing about every 70 seconds.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

And every nine minutes, that person's a child.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Every 70 seconds. So that means by the end of this, 110 people have gone missing is crazy. Let me ask you first. Your comfort level with talking about it seems high, but I definitely wanted to talk before we got into stuff. I would never want to be going in any direction or anything that you wouldn't want to go in, but am I right? You seem pretty comfortable.

[C]

No. You could ask me whatever you want.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

You can also tell us if you're like, actually, I don't want to talk about that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

I've been talking about it a long time. Yeah, you can ask away. Also, I've learned over the years how impactful stories are. We can sit here and chat about statistics. Actually, I'm not that great with numbers. I forget them kind of easy. But I remember stories. If someone's story is really meaningful or impactful, I'll remember that a lot better. Than if it's just, like, a fact. And so I guess for me, I also saw this as an opportunity to reach out to other survivors, other victims, to let them know that they're not alone. Because, again, I didn't feel like I heard people talk about rape or sexual violence or abuse as a kid, and I definitely didn't hear anyone saying, well, that happened to me. I felt a lot of shame and embarrassment around what had happened, and took a long time for me to get over that. And then as I started kind of in the advocacy world, I mean, it was the same story everywhere I turned. So much shame, so much embarrassment, so much guilt, even though they're all victims. And so I also just felt like this was an incredible opportunity to be on a stage that I could never imagine being on.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

A universal one.

[C]

Yeah. And just be able to hopefully reach out to other people to let them know they're not alone.

[A]

So, personally, and I do not want to compare at all apples to oranges, because mine's far less severe, but I was sexually molested, and I talked about it quite openly on here and some other places. And I have my own baggage with all the things that come with that. And similarly, I wasn't having a lot of people come up to me and go, like, me too. But I would say over the years, that has happened more and more and more. And it's a nice feeling.

[C]

I think you're alone and scared, and actually, maybe this is a hot take. But I think one of the saddest things I see is that when someone dies or, heaven forbid, is murdered, that's it. Their life is done. But when I see too many survivors of sexual violence, they're alive, but they stop living.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. And that loss of life I find heartbreaking.

[A]

Yeah. Because they have to be present for their own death in a way on earth.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah. So let's go before 2001, let's start in 87. You have what seems, at least from the doc, to have a pretty idyllic childhood up to 2000.

[B]

Where are we?

[A]

Salt Lake City.

[B]

Salt Lake City. Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Great.

[A]

Mormon family and in a very nice Federal Heights. Is that the name? So a very, very nice, affluent area of Salt Lake City.

[B]

Brothers and sister.

[C]

I'm second of six.

[B]

Nice. Yeah.

[A]

You rode horses.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You played the harp.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You have a bachelor's degree in playing the harp?

[C]

Yeah, well, I studied it. I actually didn't graduate. I actually had two professors pull me out of class one day, and they just said, elizabeth, what are you doing? Why are you here? And I was like, what? And they're like, you don't need a degree for what you do. We'll still be here in five, 10, 50 years. Go do what you're doing and come back when you are ready to be done with it. And I was like, wait, you're my teachers. I'm pretty sure you're the ones supposed to be encouraging me not to drop out of school.

[A]

And they're incentivized for you to stay financially.

[B]

Well, that's how you know it's real good advice.

[C]

I ended up following it, and I don't have my degree, but I don't regret it.

[A]

So prior to 2002, what kind of sights had you set for your life?

[C]

I don't want to sound like I didn't care about what happened in my life, but I couldn't imagine that my life would be that remarkable or that interesting. I mean, I thought it would just kind of be run of the mill. Like, I'd go to school, finish high school, go to college, eventually get married, have kids, maybe teach harp lessons out of the house, and that would pretty much be it. So I didn't think anything could ever happen to me.

[A]

So you shared a room with your sister, Mary Catherine. So Mary was nine and you were 14?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you shared a bedroom or an actual bed?

[C]

We shared an actual bed.

[A]

Oh, yes. So what happens that night as you're sleeping?

[C]

You know, the night started off totally normal. I mean, it was a little bit chaotic because my grandpa had just died, my mom's dad had just died, and it was the end of the school year and there's a lot of us.

[A]

Right, Right.

[C]

Yeah. There's a lot of things going on.

[B]

Was it a day? Sorry, I don't know why that matters to me.

[C]

No, it was a weekday. Like, the next day was a school day. It was still like a pretty normal day. There was nothing bad about it. There were no, I don't know, feelings of foreboding or anything. Yeah. No omens. I remember just going to bed, and the next thing I remember was waking up to a man standing above me, knife at my neck, telling me to get up and get out of bed. Don't make a sound. Go with him.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

How detailed is your memory of all that?

[C]

Yeah, it's pretty detailed for all of us.

[A]

This hasn't happened to you. Try to imagine yourself, yourself in that situation, which I guarantee your imagination is not going to do it justice. But first thoughts.

[B]

You're like, this is a Prank or horror or.

[C]

No, just this can't actually be real.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And I mean, I remember as a kid, I chose to sleep closest to the door because I was like, oh, if anything ever happened, like, it's my responsibility to watch over my little sister. I'm older than her, so I'm going to sleep next to the door, never actually thinking anything could happen. Right, right. The movie that scared me most as a kid was the Never Ending Story.

[B]

Oh, yeah, sure.

[A]

What scared you? You hated to trade with a huge dog or.

[C]

I mean, honestly, I haven't watched it since then, so I couldn't even tell you.

[A]

Oh, wow. It's a beautiful story about a little boy on an adventure.

[C]

I just remember being terrified when I watched it as a kid. Yeah. And I remember thinking that was more likely to pop out of my nightmares than to have someone break in. That was never even a thought that someone could break into my home.

[A]

And so I'd imagine there's enormous confusion about what's happening. And then you're very quickly on the move out of the house, obviously.

[B]

Yeah. Out the front door, out the window.

[C]

So I was on the top floor of my house. I was probably in, like, the highest point of my house. So we had to obviously come out of my room, come down through the big flight of stairs in the middle of my house, and then we went out through the back kitchen door.

[A]

And do you remember on that walk hoping someone would hear you guys?

[C]

Oh, absolutely. And then. Because they didn't. I remember then thinking, because nobody woke up. Is it because he killed them already?

[A]

Sure. Yeah. How could you know?

[B]

Is that why?

[C]

Because, I mean, felt like whenever my older brother and I tried to sneak down to see what presents were for Christmas, my parents always caught us.

[A]

Right.

[C]

How did they catch us then and then not wake up now?

[A]

And of course, he explicitly said, if you scream, I'm gonna kill you. If you don't, I'm not gonna hurt you.

[C]

Yeah. Ugh.

[A]

So I love how the doc is structured. It's a very, very compelling story because we really are gonna talk with your sister for the most part of the beginning of this story, which is apropos. Cause she's the only person who has any idea what has happened.

[B]

So she heard this because. Go on. Or was she sleeping through it? Also, did he have a mask on? So I have so many detailed questions about this.

[C]

She heard it, but she didn't open her eyes smart wide because she didn't want him to know she was invited.

[A]

You try to pretend you're Invisible at that moment.

[C]

Yeah, but she said she was like kind of looking through her eyelashes to try to see him. So I mean, she gave the police a description of him. But when I later read the description of him and then obviously knowing what he looks like, I was like, that's not right. But like if you're a nine year.

[B]

Old girl and it's dark in the.

[C]

Room, it's like looking through your eyelashes. Hamlet, would you.

[B]

No, I don't think it's possible to register it.

[A]

And nine years old, I mean that is so, so tiny to be giving a detailed account of what happened. Yeah, but the police obviously question her and the first really compelling thing is that she recognized the voice.

[C]

She said she knew the voice. She couldn't place it immediately, but she knew the voice. Like she recognized the voice.

[B]

Once you were out of the house, I guess she ran into your parents room.

[C]

So we have an alarm system or we had. None of us live in that house anymore, but we had an alarm system in the house. And so she was waiting to hear the alarm system go off to know whether or not it was safe for her to get up and go wake my parents. But as luck would have it, for whatever reason, I feel like someone explained to me once, and I could be totally wrong, but when an alarm system goes off, it's because there's a magnet set in the frame and a magnet set in the door. And when they disconnect, that alerts the system.

[A]

Yeah, it breaks the circuit.

[C]

Sounds like you know what you're talking about. I don't. Yeah, I think the magnets had fallen out of the door frame.

[B]

What?

[C]

And none of us knew about it. And so when the back door opened, it never went off. So my sister was lying in bed and she never heard it go off. And so she waited and waited and waited. I think she probably waited about 45 minutes before she went and told my parents. But like that would have been terrifying for her and would have taken a lot of courage for her because for all she knew we were still in the house.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Yes. And if she gets up now, she's next.

[B]

Or he could kill you. I mean, there's just a million bad options. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's unimaginable. What is painful to watch, but of course, absolutely required. And you again, you would know. You work in this space. Sadly, most of these cases are family related. I mean like a pretty high percentage.

[C]

Yeah, really high percentage.

[A]

Obviously the police have to begin trying to clear your family and there's a lot of you.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

There is also.

[A]

There's press. So what is it like for you? Because of course, you were not present for any of this. But when you have since seen everything they went through for the next few days after your disappearance, what are your thoughts?

[C]

I mean, it depends when you ask me. Like, when I first was rescued and I saw glimpses of it, initially, I was just like, you guys didn't have it that bad. You're all there together, like, you're not alone with, like, these monsters. The bad things aren't happening to you. You're on the good. Now, as a parent myself, I'd gladly go through it again to make sure it didn't happen to my kids.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And so now as a parent, I don't know whose was worse, but I know I would do whatever it took to protect my children.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, as a fellow dad, watching your father Ed speak about your primary job is to protect your kids and your little girls in the amount of shame and guilt and self flagellation, I'm sure about failing at that job was rough. But additionally, Uncle Tom's a character. She is an uncle. Is he the oldest? He is, yeah. He feels like the oldest. He got wily. In these interviews, I felt blessed by the fact that I hadn't followed all the twists and turns. So really, if I wasn't interviewing you. And my children kept asking, is she alive? And I'm like, she has to be. I'm interviewing her tomorrow. But beyond that, I don't know. So stop asking me questions like, I don't know.

[B]

Entering the dock, I get a lot. I think a lot of people forget.

[A]

I entered the dock not knowing if it was a family member. I'm along for the ride, the way America was. And I gotta be honest, I'm watching these interviews and I'm watching Uncle Tom. And Uncle Tom goes on this kind of weird path about how everyone is flawed and everyone has secrets. And I'm like, what the is this guy talking about?

[B]

Sounds like you.

[A]

Somebody would say something.

[B]

It is. Yeah.

[A]

Take this moment to be honest about the reality, the complexity of life. What? So we're watching that, and my kids are like, oh, my God. I know it seems crazy. And then, of course, it takes America by storm. And so you have all these different pundits now evaluating every sentence that's said.

[C]

First of all, my uncle is one of the best people you could actually meet.

[A]

Yeah, that comes out in the wash by the end of the night. You're like, I fucking love Uncle Tom.

[C]

I mean, all my uncles are the best people. And I believe it was after that interview, because sleep deprivation was at an all time high, that family members had to enact certain rules before family members went before the media. So they didn't come off sounding that way.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

You need, like media training, but you're going through this crazy fear and loss.

[C]

I mean, it was the most intense, worst thing my family had ever experienced.

[A]

He says later in this doc he had been awake for about five and a half days at the point. Cause he also took a polygraph that was inconclusive, whatever that means.

[B]

We had Amanda Knox on and similar. You end up doing things and saying things because you're just being put through the ringer.

[A]

Yeah. You've been interrogated for 36 hours and then you're expected to give a copy. Sis.

[B]

Normally normal.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So we're watching that. And then my kids are like, he did it. Right? And I'm like, well, he's in the dock. So no, I would presume he'd be in like the weird detective work we were trying to do. But then you're also seeing all of these things that really end up frustrating me when I see investigations. And look, these are. People are not sent down from heaven. They're human beings doing the best they can. They're scared. Everyone's scared. They're being relied on to have the answers, and they don't have the answers. But some of these immediate things that are coming out are very frustrating, which is the attacker put a chair against the wall and then cut a screen and then climb through a window.

[B]

That's how he got in.

[A]

And the detectives look at this and say, there'd be a scuff on the wall.

[B]

Ugh. Yeah, this is.

[A]

He's kind of like, I know this would happen. Those things are very frustrating.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I suppose that is how they work. Right. You're just trying to knock down things that don't make sense. But at the same time, it's like, what are we talking about? And then people saying, your father, Ed, on tv in the interviews, didn't have real tears when he was crying. Like this micro examination of what someone's supposed to be doing.

[C]

I can guarantee I don't have to be there to know he would have been crying. He cries every time he gets emotional.

[A]

You daughters do that to us. I mean, I didn't cry before I had them and now I can't sleep.

[B]

But also, even if he didn't, the fact that that then means is a problem. We all have these ideas based on movies.

[A]

Movies, yeah. How you're supposed to react in trauma.

[B]

And it's like everyone acts differently in trauma, and you can't just make an assumption. It's really bad.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Here's my great curiosity now that I know the end. So the whole town activates. It gets an enormous amount of coverage, and really everyone shows up to try to find you. There is a point where they bring up the basset hound dog and it gets the scent of you and it leads them for a very long time in your neighborhood, but then it stops. Do you have an explanation for that?

[C]

I always wondered that too. I always thought they'll bring dogs because I never got into a car. And they said the scent stopped at the street, but right across the street, it's like a pretty popular trailhead.

[A]

Go up it.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they just said it just stopped, which I don't understand.

[A]

And so they conclude, oh, they went to here, got in a car. Now the car drove away. And that's why the scents come.

[C]

Well, and then I remember. I mean, it rained. Not like a huge downpour, but it rained the. The second or third day that I was kidnapped. And I remember thinking, oh, maybe that washed the scent away. But then I assume this is correct. But I'm not an expert. I asked a dog handler years later, while it rained, did it wash the scent away? And they're like, no, that actually enhances.

[A]

The scent, like reactivates it. That kind of makes sense.

[C]

And I was just like, okay, well, I never got in a car.

[A]

Well, once we find out in this doc where you are, it's absolutely maddening. That's a heartbreaking bit of information. You were not that far.

[C]

I wasn't, but I hiked back up there just this past October, and it is not easy to get to. Like, I've run marathons. That's harder.

[A]

Wow. Really? When you were on that walk, were you even aware of how hard it was? Or you're probably just such in a state of shock.

[C]

I had, like so much adrenaline just pumping through me. I had no idea just how far back we were. I thought I was a lot closer to the city than I actually was. Which, I mean, again, when you think, oh, three and a half miles, three and three fourths of a mile, that's not that far, but straight back into the mountains, that's a decent distance.

[A]

Yeah, it's like 20 miles on flat ground, maybe.

[B]

Feels about like the whole time in silence, pretty much.

[C]

I remember asking him a few times, why are you doing this, where are you taking me? Why are you taking. I remember asking him questions, but he'd always kind of shut me down. He'd say something like, oh, I'm taking you hostage, or all will be revealed in due course.

[A]

Oh, was he already cryptic in biblical speech or was that, let's say he.

[C]

Was in and out.

[A]

Will you tell Monica this horrendous thing you had to ask him and why?

[C]

Well, I asked him if he was gonna rape and kill me.

[B]

You're like, what is this about?

[C]

Yeah, we didn't have enemies, never started a feud or hurt anyone.

[B]

But you didn't recognize him?

[C]

Not immediately, but I did recognize him once we started getting up further into the mountains and I was like, why are you doing this? My parents tried to help you, but.

[A]

You had asked if he was going to rape McCune. Because this is so heartbreaking, but also so pragmatic of you. Even at 14, you wanted it to happen close to the house if he was going to do it so your parents could find you.

[C]

It's not that different from here. There are mountain lions, there are coyotes. And 14 year old had a pretty active imagination. And I was like, oh, my gosh, if we get far up here, these coyotes are mountain lions. They're going to tear apart my body and then I'll just vanish and no one will ever find me. Which it could have happened just this last time I hiked up there, I saw some entrails on the way up and that was it. Animal.

[B]

Yeah, I know, I know, I know. But still, the fact that you have.

[A]

To think like that is terribly adult kind of a thought to have. And the first few days of this, there's 40,000 leads are phoned in, so what they're trying to sift through and ultimately the family is cleared. How do we get to Reisi? How did he come to be a suspect?

[C]

My parents had built the house that we were living in and they really project managed the whole thing. And my dad was in there laying tile with everyone else and painting walls and doing all the things.

[A]

What line of work was your dad in?

[C]

He was a mortgage broker. So he would contract out with people or he went to. I can't even remember exactly what it's called, but basically the Mormon Church services where they try to connect people in need with work. And they had recommended this Richard Reese to my dad and. Cause it came from the church. My dad was like, oh, he's good, he must be fine. So he brought him to our house, had him working on and around the House. And neither of my parents knew that actually, he was a convicted felon, and he had a whole history. So when the police were asking for a list of everyone who had been to our house before, his name was on the list. And then, of course, they're like, oh, well, he's a felon.

[A]

He had killed a cop in a armed robbery. Gone.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Wrong.

[A]

So obviously, for them, they're pretty excited at that revelation. How could they not be?

[C]

Yeah, they're like, it's him.

[A]

And they bring him in, and he's a wild dude. There's a lot of footage in the doc of them interviewing him. Again, he's also presenting as someone guilty. He's very combative. He will not explain. Your father gave him a car, right?

[C]

A Cherokee, Yeah. So it was in exchange for some work instead of money, he would rather have the car. And so that was the deal. But then I'm not exactly sure on the details, but I don't know if he had completed all the work or there was something.

[A]

It didn't end well.

[C]

Yeah. That they were like, he was supposed to follow through.

[B]

And it was like a weirdness.

[C]

I mean, he ended up stealing some of my mom's jewelry as well.

[A]

That's another thing. They go to his house to arrest him, and when they have a warrant to go through everything, they find stuff he's stolen from their house. So.

[B]

Oh, God.

[A]

Yeah. If you're them, this is looking more and more promising.

[B]

Yeah. It feels like a bullseye.

[A]

And then even crazier, somehow they deduce this. And I don't know how, but he had put. Put a few hundred miles on that car that was given to him the night of this abduction.

[C]

Yeah. And we never found out what it was for.

[A]

She refused to tell.

[C]

But everyone thought it was like he drove up to the west desert and buried me out there.

[B]

Right. That's kind of a natural conclusion.

[A]

And if you're the police, you're like, oh, my God. Now we have a radius of 150 miles. Good luck.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, and he won't tell them anything. And he's really, really combative. And they decide, let's offer him an immunity deal, which is so long as it has nothing to do with a murder or some other very serious thing, you can tell us where you drove, and we won't care about the crime.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so as that's being pitched and they're evaluating whether or not to take that opportunity, he dies in his jail cell.

[C]

My other grandpa, my dad's dad, he was a Doctor and at the time he said Elizabeth hit him over the head and he had a brain aneurysm. And that's why he.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

I'm glad he thought that. But that's not what happened.

[B]

So he did. He had an aneurysm. He just, like, healed.

[A]

What? Yeah. And the doctor. Like stroke or aneurysm. I don't know if it was ever decided. But you're still missing.

[B]

This is like a string of impossibly bad luck things to happen that nobody woke up, that the magnets on the door fell off, that this guy just dies out of nowhere. What? That's so crazy. No.

[C]

Right? How is this even my life?

[B]

Right?

[A]

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[A]

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[C]

Reese died at the four or five month mark?

[B]

Oh, that long?

[A]

Already gone for four or five months. And so obviously national attention's dying down. The police department's running out of people to talk to. They have this guy, they thought it was it. He's dead. I don't want to say they said it was over, but kind of it was over for them. But that leaves your parents with. Where is she? If that's what happened, I mean, just the agony of that being the conclusion.

[C]

Yeah, I mean everyone was like, the secret of what happened to Elizabeth has gone with Richard Reese to his grave. We will never find her. We will never know what happened. We can only assume she's dead.

[A]

Okay, now tell Monica this crazy thing that happens to Mary Catherine. Waiting for dad to come tuck her into bed.

[C]

My sister, she's just randomly looking at the Guinness Book of World Records. And she said she turned to this page of this extremely muscular woman I know this day, she's like, I have no idea.

[A]

The mind's weird, isn't it? That's what jogged no idea.

[C]

Yeah, but as she's looking at this page, this muscular woman in the world. Muscular woman. The name comes to her.

[B]

No.

[C]

And my dad comes in to tuck her in and she's like, dad, I think I know who kidnapped Elizabeth. I think it was that guy Emmanuel who came to our house and did some work for you that one time.

[A]

Who you guys had originally seen downtown, right?

[C]

Yeah, I'd only seen him once. I was out school clothes shopping with my mom at the beginning of the year. And I mean, he only saw me like one time. And just that one time he's like, yep, she's the one. I'm gonna kidnap her.

[A]

And he was a homeless guy who was preaching his own version of the.

[C]

Scripture at that point in time. He didn't preach to my mom. His spent a lot of time talking about his twisted past. But he basically found that the best way to manipulate people and get what he wanted was through religion. Or if he needed to justify something, just blame it on religion. And so he had done that for years. He'd done it to his family when he married my other captor, that was, I think his third wife. Then he and his third wife, they just fed off of each other. But they had both used that tactic for years and years. However, I think if you look at that time period, you know, he saw me in like September, October maybe of 2001, right around 9, 11. I think any form of extremism people just pulled away from frowned upon. You made people very cautious. So he had stopped wearing the robes he usually wore and he had stopped kind of pushing that facade as much. So when my mom saw him, I mean, he was clean shaven, he had clean clothes on. He just kind of looked like a guy who had hit hard times. Not necessarily like your average homeless person.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And he didn't even ask my mom for money. Straight out of the gate, he asked her for work.

[B]

When you were out clothes shopping.

[C]

Yeah. And so my mom was like, well, I don't have any work, but you can call my husband. And he only asked for work because he saw me and wanted to find out where we lived. And so from the time he saw me back in September, October, all the way up until June was when he kidnapped me. He planned it.

[B]

What the fuck?

[A]

Okay, so Mary Catherine knows it's Emmanuel. And then we bring in a sketch artist and they do a sketch. They want the police to release this sketch and they do not want to release it. I can't remember the reason they were.

[C]

I mean, they just thought it was Richard Reece. They just didn't think that it was this other guy who came to our.

[A]

House one time and they said, if you put this out in public, then if that person does have Elizabeth now you're in danger.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

This is the rationale. But thank God your family grew so frustrated and hopeless.

[C]

I imagine John Walsh from America's Most Wanted had become a huge support to my parents. And my dad had gotten pretty close with him. And my dad had told John. Mary Catherine thinks she knows who took Elizabeth. And we've gone down to the police station and we've had like a sketch artist come in and sketch this guy. She thinks that's who it is. And John was like, well, you gotta release it. And they're like, but the police don't want us to. And so actually John went on Larry King Live back in the day and he actually released the sketch on Larry King Live. Wow.

[B]

Wow. Good for him.

[A]

Yeah, as it turns out, Greg, great for him. Because pretty quickly the brother in law of Emmanuel in quotes to. Actually I did quotes, if you're listening, not watching Emmanuel in quotes. His brother in law calls and says, I think I know who Emmanuel is.

[C]

He knew that was the name that Brian Mitchell was going by.

[A]

So now we know who it is. But now where are they? Okay, so now, now let's go back to walking. As you just said, there's a second person involved who goes by the name of Hepzebah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What happens when you get to the end of this three and a half mile hiking trail?

[C]

He had said while he was taking me up into the mountains that we were going to his wife. And initially when I heard that there was going to be a woman there, I was like, like, it's gonna be fine.

[A]

I tell my kids, find a woman if you're lost.

[B]

I know.

[C]

Yeah, right?

[A]

Women can be crazy too.

[C]

Now you should tell them, find a woman with kids.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We go, step one, find a police officer or a woman's kids. And then next beside.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's a list.

[B]

It's terrible ending with man.

[C]

Yeah. And so, like, initially I was relieved because I was like, nothing that bad can happen. Plus, I mean, I could tell that he was older. I feel like your brain goes in so many different ways to try to protect you, try to make you think, okay. Or at least mine does. But the situation is not as dire as it seems like it's gonna be. Okay. There's a woman there. Maybe they're just kidnapping you because they want a daughter really bad.

[B]

That's what I was honestly just thinking. I was like, is that why?

[C]

Or maybe their daughter died or something and like, they're just heartbroken.

[A]

Well, you're grasping for any ray of hope.

[C]

Exactly. So we get back up into the mountains to like this hidden mountain camp, and sure enough, there's this woman. I feel relief at seeing her. She comes up to me, she hugs me, but at the same time, the hug was. I don't know. Is there such thing as an. Yes, there is such thing as an.

[A]

Aggressive hug or a possessive hug.

[C]

Yeah, hug of like, domination kind of thing.

[A]

Yeah. I'm claiming you. And she's also dressed in. By my. Sorry.

[C]

Yeah, no, you're right.

[A]

A crazy outfit. She looks like she is.

[C]

She has like these long sort of tunic like robes on.

[A]

All white.

[C]

Just different.

[B]

Yeah. So she hugs you?

[C]

She hugs me. She leads me inside of the tent. She sits me down on an upturned bucket.

[A]

And I need to add, it is a camping tent. You get no illusions of grandeur. This is a three person tent.

[C]

It's probably like a six person tent.

[B]

You're right.

[A]

Let's be fair. It's a six person tent.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

But that's where they're living.

[C]

Inside the tent, there's just bedding on the ground and there's this one upturned bucket. That's what she has me sit on. She brings in like this little small blue basin, has water in it. She takes off my shoes, starts washing my feet, goes to reach to unbutton my pajamas. And I was like, what? And I mean, I was shy kid. I'm a late bloomer in lots of things. So I hadn't really hit puberty yet. And I don't know anyone who goes through puberty gracefully anyway. Not me.

[A]

No.

[B]

It's not easy.

[A]

I was. I could not, of course, help but imagine my own 12 year old in this situation. And it's just devastating. It's devastating.

[C]

Yeah. So, you know, as she's like trying to undress me, I just remember, like grabbing hold of my pajamas.

[A]

The last thing you want to be is naked in front of anybody. Much of strangers. No.

[B]

Who knows what's gonna happen when these clothes come off.

[C]

This very scary.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So did she let you keep them on?

[C]

No, no. She's like, if you don't let me take them off you, I will have Emmanuel come in here and he will rip them off of you. And I remember just being like, I showered last night before I went to bed. I'm not dirty. If you want me to change, I'll change myself. You don't need to touch me. So she finally hands me a robe like the one she has on. I remember pulling it on and then taking my clothes off underneath the robe, and she scoops them up and she walks out of the tent.

[B]

And you're just sitting there?

[C]

I'm just sitting there.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

I could hear them right outside the door. Oh, God. So the woman walks out. I honestly don't know how much time passed. Could have been 30 seconds, could have been 10 minutes. But not too much time passes. And the man comes in the tent and he's changed out of like the dark sweatpants and sweatshirt and stocking hat that he wore to kidnap me in. And he has on these long robes like the woman. And he comes in and he kneels down next to me and he starts speaking to me. And at first I'm really not paying attention to what he has to say. And then I have the thought that maybe I should because maybe there'd be some reason why he was kidnapping me or what was going to happen next.

[A]

As a religious person, did you think at any point, oh, these are satanic, some kind of devil worshipy people?

[C]

At that point, I did not realize he had already mentioned God. But because I grew up in such a religious environment that that didn't just automatically make me think, oh, crazy person.

[A]

Right, right, right, right, right, right.

[C]

But then as I listen to what he says and he's like, I seal you to me as my wife before God and his angels as my witnesses.

[A]

They're getting married, Monica.

[B]

My God.

[A]

And is it at that moment he tells you you are one of seven? I will be.

[C]

He doesn't tell me right at that moment, but I mean, he does tell me later how I'm the first of. So he had this whole set of books that he viewed as scripture and he called them the Seven Diamonds plus one. Because the seven books, it was like the Old Testament, the New Testament. They were standard stuff. I don't know how standard all of them were, but they were published books. And then his plus one was the book he wrote of, like Revelations.

[B]

His book.

[C]

His book.

[A]

Because he's a prophet.

[C]

He's not just a prophet, he's the Davidic king. I know like half of these things I'd never even heard of before. That was like the same thing, how he viewed me and the future. Six other girls he was going to kidnap. So we were going to be the seven wives plus the one. And the one was Wanda Barzi Hepzabal. And she was like the queen that would reign over us all. She was the mother of Zion. That's what she claimed.

[A]

Boy, you think about all the psychology that goes behind a master manipulator like that and how offering her that high status role somehow made all the other. This dude obviously wants to be with a ton of women, but I've anointed you. This is the salve I'm gonna put on that is give you super high status and hope you're good with that.

[C]

That she had a prior marriage as well. She had six kids from her prior marriage.

[A]

That makes it even darker to think of someone who's has had children, isn't it?

[C]

I feel a little bit torn because on one hand I don't want to be like, you're not totally at fault, because you are. But at the same time, I don't think she knew what a healthy relationship was. And she probably had quite a few struggles herself in life.

[A]

You must be in a very complicated situation when it comes to her, her in particular, because she is your predator, your oppressor. And you're smart enough to know she too is caught in some web of oppression. Herself probably, yeah.

[C]

Or no, there is definitely a cycle. And I think she probably was so desperate for love. She wanted to feel special. She wanted to feel like she was important because I think she probably had never felt that in her life. And so he is there telling her, you know, you are my queen and you've experienced all of these hardships because God was testing you and he has found you worthy. You are going to be the mother of Zion. And even though you've had a hysterectomy and you're 58, one day you will bear me a son who will be the future Davidic king. I mean, you know, part of me is like, you were a mother, or maybe you just gave birth six times. Maybe you don't understand what it is to be a mother, because a mother would never harm a child.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

How. And it's mind blowing to me that even another woman. Because we've all been through puberty, you know, we've all been through that awkward, kind of miserable time in life. Why would you exploit a young girl probably at her most vulnerable? Why would you sit aside and encourage her to be raped and watch it?

[A]

And what kind of bizarre psychology to watch someone you're married to rape somebody?

[B]

Yes. She must have really been so sick and manipulated that she had to probably.

[C]

Believe, because if she didn't.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. You can't live.

[A]

Then she's triple monster. Or conversely, maybe she's an equal monster. I don't know. That's what I'm kind of asking, like, are you even able to evaluate?

[C]

That's why I go back and forth, is because sometimes I'm like, was she in such a bad place herself from her whole life's past experience, that she just was so desperate for love, for the feelings of wanting to be special that she allowed this to happen? It was just easier to believe and go along with than to stand up and be like, no, you're sick. This is wrong.

[A]

And did she ever crack and show signs of jealousy? There must be.

[C]

Oh, yes.

[A]

Yes. So she was probably cruel to you at times.

[C]

She never stood up for me and protected me. But I not only was supposed to be his wife, but I was supposed to be her handmaiden. So I was supposed to, like, wait on her. And so I felt that it was better for me to support her claims, because then sometimes her jealousy, it would be so much that he would come out with a new revelation to try to placate her. So he'd come out and he'd say, oh, God has said that your glory is like that of the sun, and so I can only be with you when the sun is out. And me that I was just more like the moon. And so he could only have me at night. I never wanted to be raped. But then if I supported her in that, at least I'd know I'd have a reprieve for 12 hours, eight hours, however long the sun was out.

[A]

I would imagine if I were you, and I could be wrong, that I'm in survival mode. And I would recognize that if I could convince her I'm loyal to you, that that would help me later.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

And probably playing this bizarre game where you're trying to make both people feel like you're loyal to them.

[C]

And so they would have massive fights, like screaming at each other, which my parents disagreed, but I never saw them scream at each other. And so watching them just be straight up nasty to each other and scream at each other, I was like, oh, my goodness.

[A]

And would you be ever hoping, like, oh, good, I hope they break apart. That'll help dissolve all this. If she goes somewhere, she maybe will tell someone.

[C]

That thought crossed my mind. But it became pretty quickly apparent that she wasn't gonna betray him.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

And I mean, one time she did actually leave the hidden campsite, and I was just left alone with Emmanuel Brian Mitchell all day. She went down into Salt Lake. Cause she was really mad at him because, I mean, food was always scarce, water was scarce. And so she and I would be up in the mountains starving, and he'd go down to Salt Lake, steal food.

[A]

While Elizabeth was in the camp. He got arrested in Salt Lake for stealing beer.

[C]

Yeah, he actually got arrested a couple times.

[A]

Oh, he did, a couple times?

[C]

Yeah, he got arrested in Salt Lake. He got arrested in Lakeside, where he was held in jail for almost a week. I thought I was going to die of starvation.

[A]

Okay, now, this wasn't in the doc, but just occurred to me. This is insanely boring, too. No, I mean, you guys are sitting in a. Yeah, I know.

[B]

It's like, what's happening during the day?

[A]

Do you remember the tedium of that?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Was there a TV in there? Not for. I just mean more just to see the news. Were you seeing yourself?

[A]

There's no electricity, there's no water, there's nothing.

[C]

They had their scriptures. They would pray. When they'd pray, it would be like an hour. So long. My family prayed growing up, but it was like 90 seconds.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Two minutes at a stretch.

[A]

Reasonable. Yeah.

[C]

My average day would be like, wake up and they'd like, well, actually, he'd probably rape me. And then he'd pray for like 45 minutes, an hour. And then he'd want to read Sometimes, whatever scripture he chose. But most time it'd be like what he wrote, which that would take, I don't know, an hour and a half, two hours. If there was food, then I'd be allowed to eat something. I mean, I'd be given what I could eat. I just couldn't take whatever. And then they'd mostly just talk all day.

[A]

They're both crazy. I mean, there's two crazy individuals.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, like, I don't know, it was worse sometimes just listening to them talk or actually being raped.

[A]

Yeah, you said that by my. Yeah. Not to be salacious, but I think it's relevant. It's that first night he rapes you. It's unimaginable. Obviously you're in so much pain, you're bleeding. And then the next day, multiple times.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then that just continues for months.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, forced me to go naked. He was like, oh, we need to be like Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.

[A]

That must have just been so bad.

[C]

And so we're gonna go naked all day. And then a wife needs to know how to make love to her husband. So we're going to demonstrate. You need to watch and then it'll be your turn. And if you don't watch, you won't get any food, you won't get any water, you won't get your clothes back. Won't be able to go to sleep tonight. Nothing is going to happen until you do this. Oh my God.

[A]

Now the other mind blowing part of this is you were also going into town.

[C]

Not right away, but. Yeah.

[A]

How far into captivity before you guys all go into town?

[C]

Probably about three months in.

[A]

So he takes them to town in there in the white outfits and both of them have their faces completely covered other than the eyes.

[C]

They added like a sheer veil for the eyes as well.

[A]

He took you guys to kind of illegal nightclub.

[C]

I mean, it was just a house party. House party.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I guess the way that the guy who hosted the thing described it was in 2002 in Salt Lake. You have a very obvious Mormon culture and then you have a pretty thriving counterculture. And there would be these kind of off grid after hours parties where people did drugs and did whatever. So he comes to a place like this and the man offered you a beer or all three of you a drink. And Emmanuel said, the ladies are not allowed to drink, but I can drink. And then the man said to Elizabeth, this guy seems kind of controlling. And then Hezbollah or Hezbollah Hepzibah. Hepzibah says, you can't talk to her. Think how close this is to being.

[B]

I bet that guy, when everything came out, he probably, I'm sure, was like, oh, my God.

[A]

He's in the dock saying he feels terrible that he didn't, like, push harder. But the one that is absolutely. You hear these stories about. I don't know if it was Dahmer or one of these serial killers were. One of his victims got away and that cop brought him back to the house. What? Yeah. So tell us about going to the Salt Lake Library.

[C]

Winter's coming on, and there's just no way we could have survived like a northern Utah winter. There's no way we could have gotten enough food or a tent. We would not have survived. Yeah. And so they're like, we need to find somewhere to go. We need to find somewhere for this winter. So it was decided we'd go to Southern California. And they're like, okay, we need to find maps of the area. We need to figure where to go in Southern California. So we went to the public library. They had maps spread out on the table. They decided we'd head to San Diego. They were, like, looking at the maps of San Diego. There was a place called Lakeside, which he's like, oh, Lakeside. That sounds kind of remote. Ish. There must be a big lake. So there's probably a place to hide somewhere around there. Which is actually kind of funny because it's a man made lake.

[B]

Oh.

[C]

Surrounded not by rural areas. Yeah. It was decided that's where we go. So they're looking at the map and all of a sudden this guy starts walk towards us, and he gets closer, and all of a sudden he flashes his badge and he says, I'm a homicide detective. We've gotten a call and I just need to talk to you because there's a girl who we're trying to find. We just need to verify that she is not that girl.

[A]

Oh, wow. Really quick. Before you tell the outcome, do you remember what was happening in your body as that was happening?

[C]

Shock, Adrenaline. Fear. Wanda Barzee. Her hand just clamped down on my thigh and I was just paralyzed.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

It was like being kidnapped all over again. It was like reliving every bad thing that had happened to me, and it just made me feel like it reminded me of how invincible my captors felt to me and that they had the control and not me. And they'd gotten away with so much already. Who was this police officer that he thought he could protect me when no one had found me?

[B]

Oh, wow.

[C]

So, I mean, I Just was frozen. Everyone has kind of heard of fight or flight or freeze. And I froze.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, of course.

[C]

I mean, it wasn't even like a consciousness.

[A]

All of us would freeze. We'll get to that. But. But Emanuel, he explains to the cop that their religion forbids her to show her face, that the only people that are ever allowed to see her face are her father and her future husband.

[B]

Okay. And the police officer said, fine.

[C]

I mean, he pushed. He was like, well, can I just convert to your religion for a day? Oh, like, if you just let me see her face. Anyone else who calls, I can assure them that. That she is who you say she is. I mean, he did push. He did try.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

But now that's the guy who I imagine has the most amount of guilt. Way beyond that.

[C]

I actually think he's passed away since then. Yeah. But, I mean, I saw him during the trial, devastated. Yeah. He just apologized so much. But I think that also just goes to show what a master manipulator.

[A]

It's very Charles Hansen.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

There is some Svengali quality he clearly had that he could not panic in the face of this situation he was in and then stick to it and get out of it.

[C]

I mean, it was also really interesting during the trial. The prosecuting team, like, found so much stuff about him. And it was interesting because the defense team even brought up a lot of stuff that the prosecution was like. We were thinking about bringing that up, and then we're like, we don't need to. But this is just like another nail in the coffin, so why not? And one of the things they brought up was a letter that Brian Mitchell had written. I think it was to his mom or someone. But talking about what a good actor he was and how much he enjoyed acting and tricking people and convincing others of whatever he felt like, oh, my.

[A]

God, can you believe that? So they take a Greyhound or you take a bus. You out of Lakeside. You're there. And now, I think this is a very savvy moment for you. What it tells me is as frozen as you were, and at many times that were terrifying, you also hadn't surrendered.

[C]

You had hope.

[A]

Because there's moments in the doc where I wonder, do we ever get Stockholm syndromey? Is there anything happening? I really can't fathom what happens mentally. You know, that Stockholm syndrome.

[C]

I am well aware of it. But, no, I'm not sure that I even really believe in Stockholm Syndrome yet. I feel like it's actually, as we just mentioned, Fight Flight Free. But I think there's another response, which is appease, which is basically which. I don't even like the word fawn because that makes it sound like you're flirty.

[B]

Oh, it makes it sound like you're.

[C]

Fawning over someone, like you're flirting, like you're looking for attention. That's true.

[B]

It does kind of sound like that.

[A]

But you're just satiating someone's ego is what's happening.

[C]

But basically it's just doing whatever you have to do to survive. So if that means going along with them, then that's what you do. Yeah.

[A]

Yes. But you do get this pretty clever idea because you know, the further away from Salt Lake City you are, the less your chances of getting found are. How do you plant this seed?

[C]

I'd watch them do it for nine months. How they'd get away with whatever they wanted by claiming God commanded them or saying it was part of their religion. And I think you'd find with most rapists it's not so much the uncontrollable need for sex, it's the power and control over another person they want more than anything. Anything. And that's what they wanted, was power and control. So I remember just thinking, well, if they can do this and get away with it, why can't I? I can only try. What's the worst thing that can happen? I guess they could kill me. At least I wouldn't be with them.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And so I thought, I'm just going to give it a try. And so I went to him and I was just like, oh, I just have this feeling. I know it sounds so crazy. God would never speak to me. I am so sinful. I am just so filthy. He had forced me to drink so many beers one night. Not that far away from this day that I am talking to him, where I'd ended up throwing up because I was a 15 year old girl at this point. And he just left me there. And so like I woke up the next morning, my face was all crusted to the ground and throw up and it was all in my hair. So I mean, I remember him being like, you know, I'm just nothing that showed my true spiritual state. I am just face down in my own vomit. But I keep having this feeling like we should go back to Salt Lake. But I know God would never speak to me. So do you think you could ask him? Because I know he would tell you, wow, you are his prophet and I know he would tell you, so could you please ask him? And I think for him in that moment. Not that he didn't already do everything he wanted to to me, but I think he felt that was like him getting full control. Not only had control of my body, but my mind, too.

[A]

In that moment, you are now a believer.

[C]

Yeah. And so that's when he was like, oh, I think you're right. I think we should go back to Salt Lake.

[A]

The sketch is out. They know who they're looking for. But, you know, where are they going to find this guy?

[B]

Do you think he had been following the case at all?

[C]

I wouldn't say he was following it per se, but sometimes when he'd go down into Salt Lake, he'd bring newspaper articles back about the search, or he'd talk about how every tree in Salt Lake had, like, a light blue ribbon tied around it and how every window in Salt Lake had a picture of my face in it.

[A]

How did that make you feel when you knew that everyone was thinking about you?

[C]

It's one thing to say that, but to see it or, I guess experience it. I mean, I only experienced after I got home and in, like, the days and weeks after I got home. The post office couldn't put mail in our mailbox. They brought it up to the house by the box full. And I remember at one point there were so many flowers in our house. House that even the countertops in the bathrooms had vases of flowers on them. I could never imagine. I mean, even now we all know, like, the number, oh, there's 7 billion people in the world, or however many. I mean, it's one thing to say that number, but then to actually even begin to realize just how many people that actually is. To put faces, to put bodies to that number.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Is overwhelming. And I didn't have 7 billion people sending me stuff, but however many people.

[A]

It was, the whole country was horrible. Yeah.

[C]

Was overwhelming.

[A]

Did it buy you a little hope to know that everyone was paying attention?

[C]

Yeah. It was comforting to think that there were people looking for me, because who was I? Why would people look for me outside of my family? My vision of it would be my parents calling the police, my family and the police looking for me. Maybe one news story and that's it. In my mind's eye, it was like my mom driving her car through neighborhoods looking for me.

[A]

Now, probably my most hated part of the whole story is something I've also experienced, which is after the first rape. You know, virginity is cherished. What were your thoughts after that?

[C]

Oh, I thought I was ruined to.

[A]

The point where you didn't even know if Your family would want you back. Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

If I managed to survive this, if I ever made it back to civilization, would I just become a pariah?

[B]

Oh, my God.

[C]

Like, how could anyone have anything to do with me once they knew the truth?

[A]

Did you have any fantasies of, like, if I'm returned, I'm just going to pretend this part didn't happen?

[C]

I wanted to, but then also, what would happen if I ever got married? And on my wedding night, my husband's like, where's your hell, Elizabeth?

[A]

Like, you're not a virgin, Right. So you felt like there's no escaping.

[C]

This now as an adult and someone who's been in this field now for a long time. Unfortunately, when you do hear about a kidnapping, you just automatically assume they've been raped. And at the time, I was like, oh, no one's gonna know.

[B]

Right.

[C]

But that was probably naive of me to think that.

[A]

Stay tuned for more armchair experts, if you dare. Okay, so you return to Salt Lake, and pretty quickly upon arriving, someone spots the three of you in these crazy outfits and calls the police.

[C]

I mean, actually, at that point, we weren't even in the robes.

[A]

Oh, you weren't?

[C]

Because we hitchhiked back from California, and my captors were like, no one will pick us up. Up hitchhiking. If we're in the road.

[A]

No. Looks like children of the corner.

[C]

We need to look a little more normal.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Okay, so then you hitchhiked back. It was right after you guys got there.

[C]

Yeah, it was the first day we were back in Utah, and you're on.

[A]

Foot and a police officer pulls.

[C]

I mean, it was multiple.

[A]

This is the part I could imagine. It just felt like getting suffocated. This moment that I would think in a movie you're going to run towards the cops, but there's no way that's what's gonna happen.

[C]

I mean, it was like the library all over again.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[A]

You have to assume that he's gonna get out of it. You're gonna be with him, and if you do something wrong, he's gonna punish you. That has to be yours.

[C]

Or he could kill me, or he could go after my family. And, I mean, I had a captor on either side of me, like, physically touching me. It's not like I was just hanging out by myself on the side.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So, like, again, that threat was very much in the forefront of my mind, and I absolutely knew what my captors were capable of, but I didn't know what police officers were capable of.

[B]

Well, yeah, so far they haven't been able to do anything.

[C]

Exactly. In my mind, in that moment, it seemed safest to turn to my normal survival instinct, which was to do what they said.

[A]

How did it unfold?

[C]

Yeah. My captors had the whole backstory prepared that they told me to say if we were ever questioned, the police officer showed up. I don't honestly remember how many there were, but it felt like a lot were there questioning my captors. And then they started to question me. They were aggressive. They weren't kind and polite or comforting in any way. So that was intimidating. That was scary. Felt. Felt like I was receiving scary from both ends.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

And my captors, they were adamant about who we were. And police officers tried asking me questions. I gave the answers I'd been told to give. They were much more aggressive this time than any other interaction we'd ever had with police. And finally one of the officers was like, we need to separate her and talk to her alone.

[A]

Yes. This is a good instinct.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But they weren't like, well, no, it's against our religion.

[C]

We weren't in the robes or anything. And so they actually didn't say that.

[B]

Maybe they knew at that point, like, the jig is up.

[C]

Yeah. I don't know.

[B]

So they took you aside.

[C]

Not that far. I mean, I was still in view. It was like, just a few yards away from my captors. And again, this officer was very aggressive towards me in his questioning. And I just remember feeling scared.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Like this whole thing there was like.

[A]

Like, you're in trouble.

[C]

Yeah, exactly. There was no softness or comfort in any of this situation. Yeah. He kept on questioning me, started saying, you know, there's a girl, she's been gone now for a long time. Her family's never given up hope. Don't you want to go home? I mean, of course I wanted to go home. Of course I wanted to be back with my family. But everything that had happened was so extreme.

[A]

How did he phrase it? He's in the dock. The officer who ultimately got it out of you, he said, something I need to ask you. Yeah.

[C]

He is like, are you Elizabeth Smart?

[A]

And you were kind of frozen again.

[C]

Because on one hand, my captors, once we were in the camp, they didn't speak with you.

[B]

Yours.

[C]

It was always like, thee, thy, thine. It was all the thous. So I didn't know how much my captors could hear from where I was at. So I felt like I couldn't just say, yes, I'm Elizabeth Smart. Because also, they had given Me a whole different name. While I was with them, I was told, you're not allowed to speak about your past. Your name's not Elizabeth. They had tried to strip me of my identity, everything. And so when the police officer said, you know, are you Elizabeth Smart? I just felt like I had to speak the way that I had been told to speak, hoping that maybe my captor hadn't heard the question, so that if some way he had been released, which had been the norm, I wouldn't be in trouble. And so I responded with, thou sayest.

[A]

Think of you. The police officer.

[B]

I know, I know, I know. He's like, what does that mean?

[A]

14 year old girl, she's Elizabeth Smart and she says, thou sayest, I know.

[B]

So that means. Yes.

[A]

They put you in the car?

[C]

They handcuffed me.

[A]

Handcuffed. Jesus Christ. Okay, guys, do you remember a point where you actually felt like, oh, my God, it's over. When did that moment happen?

[C]

I mean, honestly, it wasn't until my dad was there. They had handcuffed me. They brought me to the police station. I'm like, if you thought I was innocent, like, you would have taken me home. Isn't it my right to have a phone call? Like, I remember being a kid going into my parents room at night and they'd be sitting there watching Perry Mason. I was like, I swear, I get a phone call. I saw that on Perry Mason.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I didn't get a phone call. They didn't take me home.

[A]

How far is Sandy, Utah from your family home?

[C]

20, 30 minutes.

[A]

Okay. You didn't have to wait an eternity for dad.

[C]

No.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

No.

[B]

So they called your parents?

[A]

Monica. There's footage of him coming into the room she's being held in and hugging her for the first time.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[C]

I mean, it wasn't until then that I was like, it's gonna be okay. Like, I still honestly didn't even know if I was in trouble or not. But I was like, my dad's here. He's not gonna let anyone hurt me.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Like these two people have hu. Hurt me. Like, it's gonna be okay.

[A]

Kind of insult to injury. It takes eight years for this trial to happen. Everything's so. Everything's so broken.

[B]

Everything's so broken and disappointing.

[C]

We don't have a justice system. We have a legal system.

[B]

Yeah. So then what's happening in that eight year. Are they in jail?

[C]

They are in jail. Well, I mean, they're in the state hospital for some of it. They're in jail for some of it, the statute of limitations comes up in ut, it has to be moved to the federal courts because otherwise he's going to walk free. What?

[A]

Yeah, I'm going to fast forward to he's in prison for life.

[C]

Well, I like that.

[A]

And she got 15 years. She's out. But what is not in the doc and I got left with so many questions is, when do we dare return to school? And what on earth is that like? I mean, this recovery process has got to be so challenging.

[C]

I was rescued in March. I remember my parents asking like, what do you want to do? I was like, I want to see my friends. I want to go back to school. I had a lot of fomo. Parents were like, you can't go back to school yet. So I went back to school in the fall.

[B]

Were they also like, you're not leaving our side ever again? Yeah, I would never. I'd be like, I'm going with you for the rest of your life everywhere.

[C]

My mom basically said that.

[A]

Were you offered immediately therapy?

[C]

I was offered everything, but I did not know what therapy was. I'd say it had like a pretty negative connotation attached to it.

[A]

Yeah, that's what New York liberals do.

[B]

Especially back then too.

[C]

I just knew it was something that psychiatrists did. And I had such a bad experience at the Children's justice center with psychiatrists a few days after I was rescued because we were told if I talked to them, they could stand as proxy for me during the trial. That, of course did not happen, but I'd just been kidnapped by a middle aged white man, claiming God commanded him to. And then I was being very intensively questioned by two middle aged white men. Clearly religious. Yeah, I was very sheltered as a kid. My parents didn't call a penis a penis. It was like your privates. I had to go down the whole pathway of being like, oh, he hurt me. Oh, he molested me. Oh, he raped me. Oh, well, he stuck himself inside. He forced his penis inside my vagina. I had to get to that level of language with the psychiatrists. With the two psychiatrists must have been so uncomfortable that I was like, this is the worst thing ever. I never want to talk about this again.

[B]

Yeah, I don't want to think about this anymore.

[C]

And if these are psychiatrists, I am not going near anyone ever again.

[A]

And now in retrospect, do you think you would have benefited from the right therapists at that time? Time.

[C]

If I really understood what it was, it could have benefited me. But I will forever be grateful to my parents because they were understandably panicked when I was like, nope, I'm not doing this. My parents went to therapy and their therapist was like, if she doesn't want to talk, it's okay. It's not going to do her any good if she doesn't want to. You need to let her make her own choices. And you just need to make sure you're taking care of yourself. Cuz whatever she's been through will have been awful. And you need to make sure you're both in a place that if she wants to talk to you, you can be in a place to hear it. I am so grateful that they gave me that choice.

[A]

Well, for all of you guys to heal from this, your father has to accept his own shame, forgive himself, move beyond that. You have to deal with your shame. Everyone's got to get their shame out of the way kind of of before we can possibly process all this and talk about it. This is dangerous emotion and feeling to be caring. And I bet everyone was carrying a good deal of it.

[C]

I actually asked my mom if she ever felt guilty about the window being left cracked open. It wasn't like wide open. She said no.

[A]

Oh, that's good.

[C]

Because she was like, I didn't invite him into our home. He broke into our home. He violated our home. That wasn't because I said, here, come on in, take my daughter.

[A]

That's so healthy. Cuz when these bad things happen, I start blaming myself. My guilt and shame over my situation was so different from yours. Obviously I wasn't abducted, I was lured. I had bad feelings in my stomach. I ignored those at times. Mind you, I was 8. But I had to really reckon that, yeah, I didn't listen to my gut. I know I didn't. I feel so guilty and shame ridden about that. And at some point I have to go. And you were eight.

[C]

I mean even if you were 50 and it happened like at the end of the day. So like my foundation, the Elizabeth Smart foundation, one of our main programs is called Smart Defense and it's a holistic approach to self defense, trauma informed. But it's a combination of Muay Thai, Krav Maga, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. But my direction. She is a five time world champion in her weight class for Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. But she'll tell you, even with all of her training, she could still be raped tomorrow. Because at the end of the day, the only way for sexual violence to end, for rape to end, is for rapists to stop raping.

[A]

Yet to put the onus on the victim is a little crazy.

[C]

It doesn't matter how old you are, who you are. Those details don't matter.

[A]

Well, the part that was healing for me Elizabeth bit that sent me balling is at the end you say you changed your story from you should have done this or you could have done that to you can finish this. You're strong. Keep going. You can survive anything that comes your way. And there's some pride to be had in that because you can kill yourself with I should have done this. And why didn't I say to the cop and why didn't like the. The self abuse you can give yourself because you didn't act like a hero in a movie. But that a hero, someone that can survive and make it to today. It's so beautiful. I really appreciated that.

[C]

I mean, each one of us has survived our worst day.

[A]

Yeah, that's the victory. You're a hero if you survive.

[C]

There have been times in my life where I hate where I'm at or I don't like what I'm doing, or I willingly signed up for a marathon and I'm at like mile 18 and I've hit the wall and I'm like, what the hell am I doing? Why am I here? Why did I pay to torture myself?

[A]

Yeah, what's wrong with me?

[C]

Yeah, exactly. And then I'll be like, no, if all these other people around me can do this, I can do this. I survived nine months of being tortured and kidnapped. If I can survive that, and all these other people haven't experienced that. Not to do judge him because I know everyone has a story.

[B]

No, you can say no.

[A]

You're. You're a bad.

[C]

They probably haven't done that. And so if they can do this, I can do this.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

You can do anything.

[A]

Oh, man. How was having your name? How did that play out? Everywhere you went, you were Elizabeth Smart. You went to college, you went to byu. What was the weight of that? And did you ever consider changing your. Do you have any desire like, I don't want to be Elizabeth Smart, the girl who got kidnapped.

[C]

I would assume you understand. There's Elizabeth Smart, who everyone thinks they know, and then there's me.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Well, and then how do you do with pity? Because I bet a lot of people, even upon meeting you, have this like, oh, maybe they think fragile or how do you deal with that?

[C]

I mean, the people that have pity for me, they don't know me.

[B]

Yeah, but that's so healthy to know that.

[C]

Do our mom people's pity. No. But if it helps them feel better, just be like, I love you. I prayed for you. I'm so grateful you're alive. I followed your story. Stories. I can listen to that. But, like, I feel like if you get to know me, then you're like, oh, she's fine.

[B]

You can kind of separate.

[A]

So it wasn't a burden for you to have been so well known and then tried to carry on with a normal quote. I'm quoting again, Monica, air quotes. Normal life.

[C]

No, it was hard. There definitely have been times where I'm like, I am sick of being Elizabeth Smart. Where is the benefit in all of this?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or what about when you fell in love? Did it read ignite that cycle of, I'm damaged, this guy's gotta know this about me. Or you had worked through all that by then.

[C]

No, by that point, I was like, if anyone ever judges me for that, they're not worthy of my time.

[A]

So healthy.

[C]

My husband, he didn't know who I was. I mean, he's from Scotland, born and raised. Had no clue who I was. If the Scots are anything, they are stubborn. He was never afraid to push back or tell me exactly what he thought, which I still appreciated. But back then I was like, thank you. Because I felt like everyone just would tell me yes or go along with whatever I said. Probably because I thought I'd break or they didn't want to hurt my feelings or something. But he was like, nah, I don't think so. That's a good partner. I love that about him.

[B]

Most days.

[A]

Yeah. Some days, 51% of the days.

[C]

No, I love, love that about him.

[B]

What did it do to your relationship with religion?

[A]

It's so funny, Monica. I was just about to say the one thing that was really not addressed in the doc. It seems crazy to me that we're not addressing it is exactly that. How do you think religion is intertwined in this story?

[C]

Too much.

[A]

Too much.

[B]

It's a huge part of it.

[A]

I have seen enormous, beautiful, positive outcomes of religion. It's working for the vast majority of people, and it's a gift to people's life. And I see that. And I also want to say, I'm an aa. That's my religion. There's knuckleheads in aa and if they go out and they kill someone in the name of aa, that's not aa. That's a knucklehead who wanted to use that. So I'm going to recognize all that. I don't want to disrespect anybody? When I say what I'm about to say, which is the three Judeo Christian Old Testament religions, the prophets are all male, the apostles are all male, the characters are all male, the leaders are all male. Male. If you're inundated with that and you are a little bit off, I think if you're a male, you think you are entitled to a lot of shit that this thing said. Well, clearly only the men talk to God. Only the men lead the people in this entitlement. And then also this historic thing with child brides and multiple brides. It's all religion too. And without religion, the scene doesn't work at the library. Why on earth would this person honor that? That's preposterous. When it goes bad, this is the part it goes bad. And I'm just curious, what did all of this do to your feeling about religion? And are you scared to even say it?

[C]

I am so grateful for the values that I was raised with. I am grateful for the importance that family played in my life, for the belief that God is kind and loving and he's merciful and not vindictive and a harsh, cruel God. I'm so grateful for that. But now as a grown up and looking back on everything that happened and honestly looking at a lot of things in this world, I think it's too easy for a religion to. Again, I agree with you. There's many beautiful things. I'm grateful for all of those things. But also now as an adult, just because someone tells me something that doesn't mean I believe it. And it sounds maybe like I'm cynical. But also I just know how quickly people take religion to fanaticism.

[A]

When someone thinks they're talking to a supernatural being. This is dangerous because that supernatural being has the ultimate morality and the ultimate everything. So your justifications are so built in, it's hard for me to get into Brian David Mitchell's head and find out if he really believed all of it. But if he really did believe all of it, it and he is receiving what he thinks is these messages from God, then the laws of the land mean nothing. The police mean nothing. Your judgment means nothing. That's a dangerous tool for a megalomaniacal narcissist to have. What about your dad leaving?

[C]

My dad leaving the church as we're talking about?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, was that part of like, so your dad came out as gay and so he left the church. So I have a really great friend who was raised very, very religious and she had her struggles with It. But what for her was the breaking point was her brother came out as gay and the family was like, no way. And she was like, hold on a second. There's no fucking way that I believe in a God that doesn't love my brother as much as everyone else. I'm out if that's what you're saying it's about, then I'm gone. And I just wondered if anything with you and your dad, I mean he called me.

[C]

It was like 6 or 7 in the morning, it was really early and I was in such a sleep deprived state because the baby was. I wasn't sleeping and I swear I was up all night. So you see a phone call at like 6 or 7 in the morning.

[B]

Oh, it's horrible. Yeah.

[C]

Who died? Like who's in the hospital? What happened?

[A]

They don't draw the lottery winning ticket at 6am it's not like he's calling with great news, that's in the evening.

[C]

I mean honestly I thought my mom was in the hospital, but it's like word vomit. He's just like, elizabeth, I'm leaving the church, I'm divorcing your mother and I'm gay.

[B]

Like a roll sense.

[C]

Just like, wow. And I was like, like what?

[A]

I'm sorry, I haven't had my coffee yet. Did I come again?

[C]

Sorry, what you say? And he just like kept going and going and going. I was like, what? All I could think to say at the end was well, you're still my dad, I still love you.

[A]

See, what I was thinking was so weirdly unique about that situation and why I bring it up is not to be salacious is you had this thought that I might get rejected from this dirty secret I have and I would no longer be loved. And your dad hugged you in that police station. It was very obvious that would never be the case. And then you're weirdly in a situation where he's got this shame. You get to respect him and you get to be the person that also would never ever abandon him.

[C]

Yeah, he'll just never stop being my dad.

[A]

Dad.

[C]

And actually over the years it's not that my dad and I weren't ever close, but it was almost like because I was so close with my mom, I'd call my mom and my dad would be in the background. So I didn't necessarily feel like I needed to call my dad cuz he was like next to my mom.

[A]

Dads mostly pick up the phone and say, I'll put your mom on pretty much.

[C]

Or like if I went to my parents house. I'd mostly be there to like hang out with my mom and my dad would be in and out and be like, oh, hi, dad. So then when this happened, something really nice that came out of it was that it made me really establish my own relationship with my dad and not just piggyback it off of my relationship with my mom. When I talk to him now, it's very intentional and not just like, oh.

[B]

Hey, yeah, that's lovely.

[A]

I think you're astounding. I can't believe how well you have managed and healed from this insane once in a generation story. And as you said, it's happened a bunch of times, so I shouldn't say say that. But the fact that you've not only succeeded and kept moving forward and built a family and a life, that you also started your foundation and you've been very active and you've been to Congress and you are on it. You took the worst situation and seemed to have made the best possible outcome from it. That's very impressive.

[B]

It is extremely.

[A]

And I really, really appreciate how openly you talk about, about all of the shame and guilt and the experience in the doc. I think it's enormously helpful. I'm glad my daughters got to see that.

[C]

I actually asked my daughter if she wanted to watch it with me and she was like, no.

[A]

How did they compute what happened to you? They don't. Right. Because you're just their parent. They've only had one and that parent got abducted.

[C]

They know what happened. I mean, they don't know, like details. Yeah. But they know I was kidnapped and they know I'm like, no sleepovers ever.

[B]

Totally fair.

[C]

And whenever I say no to something, they're like, like, why? And I'm like, you know, one.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Wants to keep us safe.

[A]

Safety.

[C]

I'm like, that's my job.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Yeah. What's the tension like? Because I have this with my wife. I'm like, I don't like that dude. Why does he take so many pictures of kids? Why is he a youth sports coach? He doesn't have kids. I'm like, way hyper vigilant about all of it. And I think my wife is generally pretty tolerant of it. Occasionally she's like, you're being. How does that play out? Do you guys have these kind of debates?

[C]

I say I'm pretty cautious. I also remind myself not only is it my job to keep them safe, but it's also my job to like, prepare them for when they leave home. Make sure that they know how to trust their gut and work through their emotions and figure out their own problems. And so my natural instinct is to always, like, intervene and hovering around them. And so I would say I. I fight a lot against my natural instinct. That's hard, which it is hard.

[A]

But does your husband ever have to say, elizabeth, we're good?

[C]

I'd say we're a lot on the same page. Like, my son decided it'd be a good idea just to go to his friend's house for Halloween instead of coming home first. And we didn't know.

[B]

Oh, no. And no, thank you.

[C]

So we were, like, calling the school, calling all of his friends, and, I mean, we found him. And then my husband's like, I'm coming to get you right now.

[A]

Yeah. Can you not do a Scottish accent? I would assume, if you live with a Scottish. Well, again, thank you so much for your openness. Appreciate it.

[B]

Coming to see us. We really appreciate having me.

[A]

And the documentary is outstanding. It's incredibly well made. It's flawless. It's so good. It's called kidnapping Elizabeth Smart, January 21st on Netflix. I appreciate it, and good luck with everything. Oh, where should people go for the Elizabeth Smart Foundation?

[C]

Yeah, just go to ElizabethSmartFoundation.org or we're on social media.

[A]

Okay. Thank you so much.

[C]

Thank you.

[A]

All right. Hi, there. This is Hermium, Permium. If you like that, you're going to love the fact check with Ms. Monica.

[B]

Okay, so. So we heard back from the New York Times. Big deal. Cause last week we were talking about Monday. Oh, yeah, Monday we were discussing the armchair expert on connections.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I said, you know, we don't know for sure if it's about us or if it's just a phrase, but.

[A]

I took matters into my own hands. I posted and tagged Wyna, which is why we're here.

[B]

They reached out. Hi, Rob. Hope you're well. I'm on the PR team at the New York Times and work closely with Wyna Lynn, the creator of Connections. Actually, Winna Lou, we know that that's actually how her name is pronounced, but we just keep saying it wrong.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I saw Dax's recent Instagram story about Connections, which inspired me to reach out. We're huge fans of Armchair Expert, and knowing that Dax is a fan of Connections in New York Times games more broadly made this feel like a particularly fun and natural overlap. Anyway, they're gonna send us some connections. New York Times swag, which is exciting.

[A]

But I think we can conclude from this that we're right.

[B]

I Don't know. I just don't. I need to hear it. I need proof. I'm a fact checker, so I need to hear it.

[A]

From the horse's ass.

[B]

Yeah. From Winna.

[A]

Well, first of all, win hearted it.

[C]

Great.

[A]

Confirmation number one for me. And then this is like, it's a done deal.

[B]

I think it would. For me to feel good, it would need to be armchair expert podcast.

[A]

Okay. That's asking for. Might as well spell out our names. She can only be so blatant about her fandom. She has ethics.

[B]

No, she spells out. There's. There's stars on there.

[A]

What would be fun? Well, a, I want to talk to her, so we're gonna try to talk.

[B]

We're gonna try. Yeah.

[A]

Second, I wonder how many other things she's a fan of that we're missing. I want to find out her list of her little fun hobbies that she's winking at. Like, how many people is winnow winking at?

[B]

She winks.

[A]

But the winnow wink, they'll call it from now on.

[B]

But this. Okay, so this is to my broader point, like, sometimes she'll do categories, and it'll be like, you know, what will end up being is, like, movie stars in horror movies or whatever. I don't think that means necessarily that, like, she's a huge fan of those people.

[A]

No, for sure. If she's just trying to do a person and connect through four projects.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

But this isn't that.

[B]

Maybe she thought we'd win, and so that's why she had that set.

[A]

Maybe she went out. Went out on money. She was like.

[B]

She's like, how do we change it to good hang?

[A]

Yeah. She thought it was gonna be a celebratory wink.

[B]

Anyway, we do love connections. So it's just if you had to.

[A]

Pick between a wink from Wyna on Connections or a Golden Globe, what's your pick?

[B]

Oh, Winna. A hundred percent.

[A]

A thousand percent.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I like. It entered our other life. Like, it entered our real life.

[B]

I know.

[A]

It was our real life. It also entered our real life.

[B]

It entered in a way that was like, we engage with this. We like it so much to feel like, oh, maybe she. She likes. It would be great. So that was fun.

[A]

Did you have a post show come down?

[B]

Yeah. I think of my adrenaline. I had an adrenaline dump. But also, as I keep saying, but I keep cutting. My mouth really hurts very badly. And when your mouth hurts and you.

[A]

Use your mouth to make a living.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Like a prostitute or a flute player or a Podcaster.

[B]

Oh, I can't imagine any. A flute player right now.

[A]

Prostitute.

[B]

No, I could just use my hands.

[A]

No, you. You have to use your mouth. Your clients really, really insist.

[B]

Trust me, they would not want me to use my mouth if they saw the inside of my lip right now. It looks gross.

[A]

You're overestimating John's in general, and that's kind of you. You are never judgmental.

[B]

Yeah, but your. Your mouth, you know, you used to talk, used to eat. That's when it's really activated to drink, which is why I'm extremely dehydrated. And because it gets so much action, it's just not healing. It won't heal. I keep biting it. It won't heal.

[A]

But you had a huge output. I just want to acknowledge, because I was with you yesterday and I was like, I can tell she's had a really busy week. Like, you were at. You went to six events. Lots of events, different outfits. And the stress of the interviews and the picture, like, I could tell yesterday was, oh, my God, what have I been through in the last six days?

[B]

But it is.

[A]

And I was doing that with a flu as well.

[B]

Yeah, it was a mix because it was. It was a lot of events over the course of the week which were fun. Like, they're fun, but they. You know, I think people. I'm just gonna get. You know, people look at celebrities, movie stars mainly, and TV stars and stuff, and they're like, what do they have to complain about? They just go and get their makeup done and their hair done, and they wear cute outfits and they take pictures and, like. Like, annoying for you to complain, which I get. Yeah, but it's not that easy to like it. It takes a long time. These glam routines take a long time.

[A]

Unless you're a dude.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. If you're a woman, you.

[A]

It's.

[B]

It's hours and hours. And if you have a job as I do, you don't have other things fall by the wayside. So then there's, like, stress building because you're like, oh, I'm behind on this. Not behind on this. And I'm just sitting here getting my makeup done. Like, eek.

[A]

Yeah. I don't think being prettier is going to help the edit.

[B]

Exactly. And then the main thing for me. And this is. This is weird because it's normally not very cold in California. It was cold last week. Very chilly. It was cold. I was outside in. You can't wear a jacket.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You're not allowed if you're a Woman to wear a jacket. Cause there are pictures.

[A]

You gotta stand on your tiptoes and your arms and your purse is a fucking joke. I was thinking this. Cause I'm always in this sitch with Kristen. I'm going places with her and she has this clutch. It's a joke. It's not even a thing. And so I'm holding all of her stuff. Her phone won't fit in there. You know, the fucking nicotine spray won't come. Multiple people swim. And I'm just like, why is a. Why is a bigger purse ugly? What the. Why can't you have like a normal size purse on the floor?

[B]

Like in life? Like you there are big. My purse is enormous. And it's very cute. I love it. Yeah. I have a full pharmacy in there.

[A]

Your apothecary.

[B]

But I can't. No, you can't. That would be a big like bad thing to do. Faux pas. To bring a big purse, you bring a tiny person. So you can't wear a coat. Cause that covers up your outfit. And so you're also freezing cold. But have to act very, very comfortable.

[A]

Oh. But I just had a breakthrough idea for you for your first billion dollar business.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You need to design a very elegant handbag that has like, it's designed to hold your pharmacy. Oh.

[B]

Like it has individual components like pill pop.

[A]

You know, it's got like pill packets that come in there and like, like little sleeves like you'd put a coke can in. But it's for pill sized things and it. Cause generally it's just sloshing around. But if you, if the whole inside was lined with like little railings to put all your pills and your bottles and you somehow do a play on apothecary. I don't know, I don't have it yet. But it's like apothecary. You know, it's a bag of Gary or something. Bag and apothecary are mixed. And that's your new billion dollar idea? The problem is I only want 100 million million of it. I just want a little.

[B]

The issue is, although I could do a good marketing campaign and stuff.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

But like I'm the only one walking around with a pharmacy in my bag.

[A]

It may be as complete as yours, but I'm telling you, most women when I say I need something, they have like they have Advil in their purse.

[B]

They have, they have the basics.

[A]

All you women have medicine in your purse to varying degrees.

[B]

Okay. But people have the basics. But mine is extremely dream and it, it comes I know, because I'm with other women and people will be like, oh, I'm wish I had a Midol. Yeah. And then I'm like, I have it. And they're like, I didn't even know they still made those anymore. And it's like, I have it.

[A]

Or it's old, but I have it.

[B]

There's a spill and I'm like, here's my Tide stain stick. No one else has it. You know I have it all.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And so I need to figure out a way to convince the world that they need it all. I can. Men get on board too. And it's like there's also a man Bag. Bag.

[A]

We don't believe in medicine or carrying medicine until you know that. I know that.

[B]

I know. But I've also provided from my pharmacy to men because they're like, they're so injured and hurt.

[A]

I'm all over the place. Sorry. ADHD now. But this hit me as a theory. The other day I was reading an article about that sad Seasonal affected disorder.

[B]

Affective.

[A]

Affective disorder, yes.

[B]

Which I suffer from.

[A]

Women suffer from 5x of men. I just read this two days ago and I started thinking, of course it is. Because y' all were gatherers and you're gathering when it's sunny and in the winter time, there's not much to be picked. Now, Grant, I understand when we're doing a lot of other stuff, but the trips out, the exercise, the walk, the gathering, the chatting that happened in hunting, gathering, all that stuff is diminished during these cold hold in non harvesty months. And I think there's some connection there. That's my new theory.

[B]

Okay, I like that theory. Now, when did daylight saving start?

[A]

It started. I wanna. I'm gonna guess. Rob, you're gonna look it up, but I'm gonna guess it started in the 50s and it has something to do with farming.

[B]

Oh, right.

[A]

Yeah, it has something to do with farming and some. Oh, it has something to do with kids working before school. So I think when school got mandatory, you needed day kids to be able to work a little bit before they went out. What is it, Rob? All right. It was a wartime measure in 1918 for seven months during World War I. The it was added in the interest of adding more daylight hours to conserve energy resources. Oh, wow. I got that way wrong. Why do we both think that thing I just said?

[B]

Yeah, I heard that too. Maybe you told me urban legend.

[A]

I think either work. Okay.

[B]

No, we're here for facts, Rob.

[A]

Early 70s. There was another energy crisis. This and they passed a bill in Congress to make it permanent. And then Arizona said that and Hawaii said that.

[B]

I know. And I wish California had said.

[A]

We already said it. I don't know why we can't enact it. It's.

[B]

We looked it up once. I forget.

[A]

But you know, I've changed my tune on it a little bit.

[B]

Oh, I know. Do this.

[A]

And you may too as you age because I now get up earlier. Oh, and I love. My favorite thing is I'm on my bed meditating and quite often I start it's dark and then at the end of that 20 minutes I open my eyes and I can see the hillside of Griffith park is now lit up.

[B]

That's nice.

[A]

And I love that. And. But right before daylight savings kicks in, I'm doing that whole thing in the dark and I'm like I'm up and it's depressing to be starting my day in the dark. But you sleep a little later so you're never dealing with when it's dark. It doesn't get light till 7:30. You don't really know. Okay. I've been wanting to bring this up forever. Okay. I wrote it down in my notes of fact check stuff.

[B]

Great.

[A]

About a month and a half ago.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

As you know I cut my hair and my bathroom isn't backlit, it's all front lit. So when I work out I get this crazy view of stuff going on behind my head that I normally can't see.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so. So I have moved a set of scissors into the gym.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so you might know that I trim my hair while I'm working out pretty often I'll always trim it in two different spots and then I get the vacuum out and I vacuum where my hair fell.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But as I'm doing that I realize I'm seeing your guys hair everywhere.

[B]

Oh no.

[A]

Yeah. Like you guys are just dumping fucking hair everywhere and it's long as hell and you guys never think I better vacuum a that up. So I'm seeing in the gym there's just like long hairs laying everywhere. And then I think why can't I just leave my cutings on the ground? But isn't that funny? But if you think about it, there's more yalls long crazy hairs than my little short trimmings. But I would feel insane to leave those short trimmings which you probably can't even see.

[B]

But it's.

[A]

Why isn't it the same?

[B]

Okay. It's different because our hair isn't falling out in like, like A big clump on the ground. And there's just a big clump there. It's like one, like, probably just fell out. And then like later over there, one will fall out.

[A]

And then after a week of that, if I look across my gym floor, there's long hair everywhere. You actually can't see any of my.

[B]

Trimmings, but you can't. I'm not going to get a vacuum to vacuum up one hair.

[A]

Thank you. You're right. I know you won't. And. And none of you will. But. But it's insane. It's insane that mine's like, tinier, and I'm like, of course I'm gonna clean up the hair that I put on the ground.

[B]

Okay, but if, like, when I get my hair cut, I clean up that hair, right?

[A]

Because it's an enormous pile.

[B]

Well, because there's.

[A]

It's.

[B]

It's in a pile. It's not like it's scattered around.

[A]

But let's not use hypotheticals. Let's use the one that's happening in my gym. So there's these little tiny, like, I'm cutting, you know, probably a quarter of an inch off in places.

[B]

But how much?

[A]

Like so much you can't see it. That's what I'm trying to tell you.

[B]

Like eight hairs.

[A]

You know, whatever. I just do a snip. But my, my. Here's my point. We're missing where. Where we've missed the forest for the trees or whatever the.

[B]

No, that's. These are important questions.

[A]

You can't even see where my hair is on the ground after I trim.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And yet I know I would feel insane to not get the vacuum out and vacuum where I was standing. Cuz I know he just cut my hair over the floor, so.

[B]

Are you suggesting women should. Should. Should carry a. A vacuum?

[A]

A little mini vacuum?

[B]

Just every.

[A]

Let's see how your bag turns out. If you can figure out how to get a Dustbuster in there without a big bulge in it so it doesn't look like you're carrying around the. Well, the cumulative length is probably similar, too. Probably less. What you say the cumulative length of Dax's hair versus long hair. One of your. One of your strands.

[B]

It's like if you mass. If you walk through and you see a big clump, but you don't.

[A]

No, that's.

[B]

Listen, I just want to see it for myself. To see what the. What if I can see the hair?

[A]

This is where I'm going with all of it. I'm not asking you to do anything.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Okay. I'm trying to see if I could just unethically cut my hair in there and just forget about it. Because there's already fucking hair everywhere and I can see the other hair and no one seems to care about that. So why am I so worried about my little shavings that you can't even see? I'm questioning. I was like having a moral dilemma up there. Wow. Wondering if I'm free to just cut and run.

[B]

It's your house. You can do whatever you want.

[A]

I know, but I wanted your opinion on it.

[B]

I mean, look, I guess if you can't see it, you could.

[A]

And we're living with the other hair.

[B]

That'S very visible until the whole space gets vacuumed. Right. Like that's. That's the thought. You shouldn't probably never vacuum. Well, no, but I guess then sure, I guess you could leave it until the weekly vacuum.

[A]

I just was vacuuming. I'm like, this is kind of crazy. Why do I even do this? I can't see my hair and I see all this other hair.

[B]

I have a question now. If you're cooking.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And little like, you know, I don't know, salt gets on the floor or something. Just a little bit like a one or two. Do you vacuum it up?

[A]

Not for two grains of salt.

[B]

Right, Exactly. So it's kind of like that. Like when you're cooking. It's like sometimes things get on the floor. I don't vacuum after every time I cook.

[A]

I know. Which we probably should, I guess.

[B]

But then, yeah. By the time, the end of the week. Week, it's like, yeah, the floor is dirty. It needs.

[A]

You walk in there barefoot and you've got basically seasoning like seasoned fries.

[B]

So I think if you're comfortable with it and your family's comfortable with it, you can wait during for the weekly vacuum.

[A]

Oh man. It just felt like a. A pointless endeavor.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When we were already accepting of all this two foot long hair that's everywhere.

[B]

The issue is, I think the women probably. Unless it's like how I imagined it in like a big client clump.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's bad, right? But if it's like you're saying you can't see it, I don't think I have a problem. I don't think anyone has a problem with it except you.

[A]

You should see what I pull out of our drain. I call it fishing.

[C]

Sure.

[A]

And about once a year I'm in the shower and I'm noticing, huh. This stuff's starting to back up a Little bit. Like the water's not flowing the way I should. Time to go fishing. And I have a fishing rod I've created. It's a. It's a coat hanger. Unwound. And then. And I bent up a little hook at the bottom. I can get it down in the drain and takes a bunch of. And then I twist.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And then I get it out. And Lincoln generally will join me because she likes it. Good. Because it's what gets pulled out of there.

[B]

I know. Possum.

[A]

No, it's. It's a mouse. Like, back to your water fear. Yeah, it's a mouse. And it smells so gross. And it also turns into, like, oil. Like, somehow it's decomposing. It's always like in a black tar.

[B]

I know. I don't get that. But let me tell you something. Something I think you need to teach the girls in your house about. Hair walls.

[A]

No.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

No, because they're not going to. Then clean the wall.

[B]

No, they. They have to clean the wall.

[A]

They have to, but they're going to. I'm. I'm, like, trying. There's, like, what they should do and what. What's going to happen.

[B]

Okay, but would you. Okay, so then would you, Dax, rather have hair on the wall or hair on the drain for you to have to pull out as a rat?

[A]

If I have to pick between cleaning the wall every time I shower? No. My resentment would get. It's like, motherfuckers, you put your hair on the wall, take it then to the trash. I like it. Be a daily resentment, probably.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

Versus once a year, I go fishing. And there is. I must admit, you like it. Well, there's a reward. Like when you pull that rat out of there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're like, oh, my God, I'm so glad it's out of there. It's the same thing. I don't understand what's going on. I need to talk to an evolutionary biologist. When you pop a great pimple.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The amount I think about the moment it popped for the rest of the day.

[B]

Oh, I don't have that.

[A]

You don't? I just keep going back, back to the moment. Like, there's such a wave of relief. You've gotten that out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm talking a pop. Like a satisfying moment. It's like, oh, thank God I did that. Usually you regret it. You're like, I shouldn't do this. But occasionally it goes really well.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Just went really well for me at the hotel.

[B]

Oh, that's nice.

[A]

Night before golden Globes. And I just kept thinking, I was even thinking about it two days later. Like, I just want that moment to keep happening over. Pop, pop, pop, pop.

[B]

Don't say that. Because then you don't. But you don't. You don't want your skin to be bad enough that. See, I think this is skin privilege, personally. Because. Because I don't have that. Because it happens enough. Like it's not like if it goes.

[A]

But still, do you not get that.

[B]

Huge wave in the moment? It's like, thank God, it's out. Thank God.

[A]

Yes. Okay, great. We get that.

[B]

Yeah. But it's the recurring thing that I think is skin privilege. Because, like, I know that's coming. I'm doing the opposite. I. I'm like, I just like hope I can get a lot of time in between the next time I have to do that.

[A]

Yeah. I don't want more, but I love that moment so much. There's something going on.

[B]

Yeah. It's like, this isn't supposed to be here and I got rid of it and now I look better.

[A]

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

[B]

So wait, what were you saying before skin? Oh, the rat.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, so hair walls are great for the listener. It. You, you wash and like when you condition and it's. It's like it's coming out. You know it's coming out. You feel it in your shedding and you, you like grab it in your hands and you stick it on the wall and then you do that throughout the shower. It's important. This is important stuff because you're not clogging your drain and.

[A]

But do you take it off the wall?

[B]

Yes, sometimes I. Okay, sometimes I don't. But I live by myself. I get. I. That's my privilege.

[A]

Did you rub boogers on your hair?

[B]

No, no, I don't talk about burger.

[A]

I did not. I hate the hair wall too. You hate it, but you put boogers somewhere. Rob. Kleenex. Oh, we didn't have Kleenex. What? You guys Rockefellers? I would. You know what I would do? Kids. A lot of the kids I knew, they were just rubbing it. Disgusting. I would lean over and put it on the metal railing under my bed.

[B]

So no one ever seen it. I want to cut this, cuz this is so disgusting. And yes, I did that.

[A]

Okay, you put it under the railing.

[B]

I put it like under the bed.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Every kid in America must be doing this. I bet. Like every kid's bed is just full of boogers. I just flick it on the Carpet?

[B]

Yeah, some people do carpet. I never did that. I wonder what age you outgrow the booger under the bed when you can afford Kleenex X. Oh, but I don't have Kleenex. I do have Kleenex by the other side of my bed, but I don't use it. Like, I don't know.

[A]

What are you doing with your boogers?

[B]

I don't get. I don't do that anymore.

[A]

I don't get nearly enough boogers. I miss them so much. When you're a kid, you have boogers all the time. I never have boogers now.

[B]

Maybe it's because you're. It probably is because we were picking them out and so it was creating, like, more and more and more.

[A]

Like my throat clearing.

[B]

Yeah. And now when you don't touch it, it's just like, it's fine. Mine.

[A]

Once in a blooming mind, I'm digging around because, God, I inspect all the time. Oh, I'm constantly in my nose, like, looking for one.

[B]

There's never any often on camera, by.

[A]

The way me looking.

[B]

You do touch your nose a lot.

[A]

No, I don't. Yes. Stop. Well, my nostrils, like nobody, you know, I can put two fingers in my nostrils, no problem. Most people can't really do that.

[B]

Yeah, I can't do that. Well, I can almost.

[C]

Ow.

[A]

I mean, I have the biggest nostrils. You remember my People Teen People magazine shoot when I was. Yeah. Skydiving. I look like Porky the Pig.

[B]

You told us about it, but we never. We couldn't find it. And we shouldn't find it.

[A]

No. I hope. If anyone has it, please burn it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or tuck it under your booger railing under your bed.

[B]

No, don't.

[C]

Guys, I don't want to talk about boogers.

[B]

For some reason of all, so.

[C]

I know.

[B]

For some reason of all the things we talk about so much gross stuff. And I'm. I'm actually. I'm fine. Fine with all of it.

[A]

But.

[B]

There is something about boogers that is disgusting to me. And I do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I don't know what. Where that line is drawn. Like, why. Yeah, probably because when I was a kid, like, boogers are the thing that makes you gross.

[A]

Yeah. They're disgusting on other people, but that's just like farts reading so many new articles that it's really good to smell your farts. I sent you one and said you're gonna die.

[B]

No, it didn't not to smell them.

[A]

What did it say? It said, the gas is good for your body.

[B]

It says holding in Farts is bad.

[A]

I sent you another one. Yeah. There's some chemical compound that they have figured out is good for you to breathe in.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Yeah. And I said, you're gonna die if you don't start farting and breathing that.

[B]

I'm not doing it. I'd rather die, I guess.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

This is where we're at.

[A]

I know I've already told this, but it reminds me of the time I went to my brother's field hockey game, and I was like, six, and I was sitting on this. This log, and in fact, it was a telephone pole laid on its side. That was a makeshift bench in a field.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And. And I'm sitting on it, and I'm watching my brother play field hockey. Another little boy sat down next to me. He was my age or just. He's probably watching his brother.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then out of nowhere, was just looking forward. And he goes, you eat your boogers. Just. That was the icebreaker. You eat your boogers. And I didn't. I'm not judgmental of it, but I didn't eat my boy. And I was like, no. And he's like, no. And I'm like, no. He goes, I do.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Like, he had to get it off his chest or something. Maybe I've always. Monica, I'm about to compliment myself. I've always had the skill. Maybe people just want.

[B]

I've always had the skill bringing out people.

[A]

I didn't even do anything. There's just something about my face where people, like, look at this piece of. I'll. I'll tell him anything when he's not going to be judgmental.

[B]

Maybe it's your nostrils, girls. Ding, ding, ding.

[A]

Could have had. But what a great moment.

[B]

I like that boy. Because you know what? After you said no, he could have said, me either.

[A]

Right?

[B]

My brother does. That's what I was asking.

[A]

Yeah. He was so into it. He was probably like, oh, yeah. I can't wait to talk about how the. The joy of doing this. I can't wait to find out this guy's doing the same.

[B]

Like your joy pulling out the rat from the drain. It's weird, but anyway, I do want.

[A]

To show you a picture of the rat you don't want to see.

[B]

I don't like rats.

[A]

I know. No one in my house wanted to see the picture either. I was so bummed because I want to. I. That's like the closest I can get to going and killing a gazelle. Like, I want my family to reward me that I was Willing to do the gross thing, because that's the guy's job is to like, handle the. That stuff. So if I do it, I want everyone to go like, thank you, dad. We didn't want to touch that. But you're brave enough to do it.

[B]

You know what, what they would do that for, what they would say thank you for, is if you clean the hair wall every day.

[A]

Okay. You're still on this hair wall?

[B]

Yes, the hair wall is. Is important. And it, it's. It's preserves the drain. Sometimes it's cool. Like at the end of the. At the end of the shower, you're like, oh my God, like so much hair.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then you're like, oh, no, I'm in perimenopause because all this hair is coming out. And then you forget about that the next day.

[A]

And then it happens again once you have your period and it's healthy and.

[B]

Well, you still have your period during perimenopause. Anyway, hair wall. Do you think I could. Okay, maybe I could have a product? A new product?

[A]

Well, I was just gonna say, why don't you have a suction cup with a little bucket on there, right? That you can just dump the hair in there?

[B]

Yeah. It's just like more fun because it's not even about you. Like, it's efficient. It's efficient because you're just like. You're doing this and then you just.

[A]

She's running her hand through her hand.

[B]

Because of the water.

[A]

Uh huh. You're ducking. Do this in your new fancy bath. Oh my God.

[B]

I'm not going to clog up the drain in my new fancy.

[A]

That's true.

[B]

And the. The primary bath has blue tile, so I bet my black hair on that blue tile would be so nice.

[A]

Really nice. I have a humongous thing. I have to pause this. I thought we were doing this tomorrow. So I had prepared for this, but now I'm remembering I have something enormous. Can you give me one second? I'll be right back. Okay, I'm back.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Groot, what happened? Got fan mail.

[B]

Oh, wow. Hi, Groot.

[A]

And Delta is so pumped.

[B]

Oh my God. She's.

[A]

I came home yesterday and I said, where's Delty? And Kristen said, she's upstairs because Groot got fan mail. And they were up there going through the fan mail together.

[B]

What is it?

[A]

Groot was sent by Joseph Lopez a book.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

Yes. It's called Maeve and Charlie Meet the Neighbors.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

It's about a dog. And I guess that's a Squirrel, chipmunk or a ring tailed lemur.

[B]

I'm not good at animals, as you know.

[A]

Okay. But he got his first bit of fan mail.

[B]

Was there like a letter?

[A]

Dude, no. Root is. Is. He's famous.

[B]

Oh, my God. Groot.

[A]

And he hasn't acted the least bit different. But this book has been dedicated to Groot.

[B]

It says for.

[A]

Signed by the author.

[B]

Much love.

[A]

That is so cute, Joseph Lopez. Thank you. This made everyone's day. This is so sweet.

[B]

I am. I'm a little. I'm concerned.

[A]

I already predicted this in my head. What's your concern?

[B]

He's a kid.

[A]

He's handling it so well. He doesn't act entitled at all.

[B]

Not yet.

[A]

He's completely humble.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

He's humbled by the gesture. He's more humble post fan mail than pre fan.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

I just, you know, it's like child stars is a tricky thing.

[A]

It is a tricky thing. But if you've got great parents.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Who have been through this.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

That's helpful.

[B]

You mean great grandparents.

[A]

Grandparents. I'm his grandpa.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Yeah. His grandpa. Who he lives with, though.

[B]

Right. But you're his grandpa.

[A]

Okay. I'm his only male in his life. And he really looks up to me. Because he's a boy in a tree.

[B]

I mean, I guess since you did drugs, maybe you could talk to him. Yeah, but like, I just.

[A]

Ones are good.

[B]

See, that's my worry.

[A]

No, he's not. As you know, he has a lot of different challenges. Cause his cardiovascular system is half tree, half boy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He breathes carbon dioxide and oxygen.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I don't think he should inhale anything.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I want him to do anything.

[A]

I wouldn't mind that he does mushrooms and expands his mind.

[B]

As a kid.

[A]

No, when he's in it. When he's an adult.

[B]

I know. So you need to talk to him about that. Because he's going to have the opportunity young.

[A]

Because he's famous.

[B]

Yes. And drugs are going to come to him.

[A]

But he's not Drew Barrymore. He's not going to nightclubs. He just is here at the house.

[B]

I'm just worried he'll start sneaking out.

[A]

Hanging out with other celebrity kids.

[B]

Celebrity kids?

[A]

Who are the hot celebrity kids now? I feel like when we were young, there were so many celebrity kids and I don't feel like there's a lot now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like there were the stranger Things kids, but now they're adults.

[B]

You're right.

[A]

Did you say you saw one? That he was hot?

[B]

Yeah. He's Hot. Yeah. He's not a kid anymore. He's 33. No, the adolescent boy. The boy from adolescence.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

He. He's.

[A]

He's a child star.

[B]

Kid, kid star.

[A]

He's won every award they make.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Who else?

[A]

What happens is a few child stars go awall and then we just think all child. But look, I was friends with Josh Hutcherson and Jonah Bobo. I. I'm all the ones I knew have done just fine.

[B]

Yeah, that's true.

[A]

Okay, this brings up my last point. I'm done with points.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

The more that the film business has eroded, which it has so dramatically.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The Oscars means less and less and less. I was even thinking, like, what. Who even comes now? You got like two good movies that I remember. Four good movies. It's really like more and more. That show's gonna mean nothing because of the movies that are getting made. They're like big spectacle movies.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And then there's a couple movies no one sees. There's not like this huge, you know, treasure trove of 35 to 60 million dollar movies that were made, made your, you know, your Michael Clayton's. All these incredible movies that we all love. They don't exist. There's really tiny independent movies and then there's a couple big movies and just all in all, it means less and less. And yet that's still somehow got the most cachet and it makes less and less sense now. Like, are they gonna use. Are they gonna incorporate TV or what?

[B]

Well, no, I still think it used to. It used to still kind of be that, like there would be indie, there'd be, you know, critical darlings.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And then one or two, like, big movies. And I think that's going to happen. That h. That's going to happen this year.

[A]

But the point is, is in 2004, there were 35 movies that all did well that everyone saw that big stars were in.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And now there's about five. I mean, just really has. Just quantity has shrank by 85%. And it was a real shootout. It's like right now it's like, you know, it's really between a couple movies. There's only a couple of big great movies. It means less and less.

[B]

But it's. I guess then it's like getting into that club, like being a critical darling.

[A]

But at what point do we're like, certainly viewership. Like no one's even seen the couple movies that they're gonna have up there. You know, back then you like, you had a Bunch of Favorite Mov saw 10 excellent movies that year. You wanted to see which one was going to win best Picture. It's like right now it's like you either want Marty supreme or One Battle after another. Like your is your 5050 shot.

[B]

Well, no, I mean Hamnet won the Golden Globe and people really like that. But also is supposed to be so sad.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you know, Train Dreams, people like it.

[A]

It's just. Well, also Train Dreams is on. On Netflix. So it's like that's confusing. Will that be at the Academy Awards? I don't think so.

[B]

Of course. Yeah, it was.

[A]

They released. But again it's a. It's a. It's a. It's a joke release to get to qualify for that. It's just not. It wasn't in 3000 theaters the way it would have been in.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Early 2000s.

[B]

Matters necessary like sentimental value. Also will be nominated. Great movie.

[A]

No other choice. Yeah.

[B]

I haven't seen this amount of movies.

[A]

Came out in one month in 2002.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like from September to December there was 15 well funded, beautifully shot, podium seeking films. And so are they going to either invite in what people are watching, which is tv.

[B]

Oh, sinners will be sinners.

[A]

Yeah, that's true. That's a good one. Um, you know, will they. Will they. Will they widen their net because they're getting less and less relevant. Maybe people aren't gathering around talking about movies like Hamnet's. Probably amazing. People in Oklahoma are not at the supermarket chatting about it right now. Guarantee it. But people were at the supermarket talking about many of the movies that were coming out in the 2000s. The way they're now at the supermarket talking about Stranger Things.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And every other great show that's out.

[B]

Yeah, maybe.

[C]

I don't know.

[B]

I don't know. Know what's the most popular movie box office wise this past year? 2025.

[A]

Wicked.

[B]

Right. Which will probably get a Sinners.

[A]

What was in the box office category. They have that now. See, they were smart enough to add that. They're like, okay, this thing has changed. So we got to recognize what's working.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Whereas to me the Academy Award is just like no word. This thing, it's very prestigious, but it's meaning less and less and less. And I. I just wonder if they're going to evolve. Minecraft, Lilo and Stitch. Superman, Jurassic World and Zootopia 2. So all franchises virtually Superman.

[B]

Good for our friend James Gunn. James Gunn, Friend of the pod.

[A]

Yeah, I like James Gunn.

[B]

Yeah, that was a great episode.

[A]

And the Emmys. Now people want to know the emmys. They have 10 favorite shows, right? The Emmys is what the Academy Awards was.

[B]

You said 2004 Oscars.

[A]

Yeah. What do we got?

[B]

Let's look. Okay, Best picture nominees. Master and Commander.

[A]

Huge movie.

[B]

I didn't see it.

[A]

And original. Not a franchise. Not ip.

[B]

Master and Commander. The far side of the world. I have to sneeze, but it's not coming. Seabiscuit.

[A]

Oh, original. Huge movie stars.

[B]

Lost in Translation.

[A]

Oh, Bill Murray. Scarjo.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

What a movie. These are also low though, on the box office.

[B]

See, that's what.

[A]

No, not the first two. 33 for master and Commander. Okay, what was the second one?

[B]

Seabiscuit.

[A]

Seabiscuit. 200 million dollar movie.

[B]

Okay, so 17.

[A]

Seabiscuit did not make 17 million. No, no. It made 120. 17th.

[B]

17Th.

[A]

Still hundreds of millions of dollars globally.

[B]

But he's saying on the lit, like it's not just the best, the biggest.

[A]

Movies, it's usually not correlated.

[B]

You're just saying more people saw it, saw movies.

[A]

It's more than that. The movies were well funded. They're visually stunning. The, the craftsmanship they have. The budget for the quality of the movies has fallen.

[B]

I, I disagree with you on that. I think the movies that were nominated this year are very high quality and, and good. Whether people see them or not. Not, I don't know, but they are good.

[A]

What's the budget of Hamnet? See if you can find that or any of these really, other than a one battle. Got a budget. And that's because of Leo. 30 to 35 million for Hamnet. For Hamnet. Yeah.

[B]

That's not tiny.

[A]

It's not terrible, but it's not great. I mean generally these, these high end dramas were like 40 to 60. It doesn't matter.

[B]

Okay. Anyway, also Lord of the Rings is on there.

[A]

Okay. I mean, come on. Lord of the Rings.

[B]

And then Mystic River.

[A]

Yeah. Sean Penn, Clint East. No, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

But they were like. Yeah, people went just. People went to the movies more.

[A]

Yeah. And so people were invested. So like they had fallen in love with that movie and then they want to see if it's going to win.

[B]

But I think with Netflix and stuff, like people are still seeing it. They're just seeing them in their house and.

[A]

Great.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So what I'm saying is instead of doing this, this like fake, we're gonna release it in 13 screens for one weekend. So we qualify. That's just a loophole. We would acknowledge the real distribution is on Netflix. So just if you're the Academy Awards. Even if you don't want to include tv, forget this distribution thing.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Include the ones that there's other great movies on other streamers that didn't do the theatrical distribution. Amazon wouldn't put out Roadhouse on five theaters. So they could be. You know, there's a lot of these movies, but they're not even playing that game.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's like Academy Awards. How about you fucking get over this distribution thing? So just to get more. I mean, if they want to save this thing.

[B]

Right. I guess that's true. But I like that they're putting movies into theaters. I saw a fair amount of movies last year.

[A]

Let me be clear. I wish everything was. I Wish it were 2000.

[B]

Yeah, but.

[A]

Because it's not. And it's not what's happening. Why watch the Academy Awards?

[B]

Yeah, they're probably gonna need to.

[A]

That's my whole point.

[B]

Add in the. The streamers.

[A]

They're going to have to do something.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I just looked up 2,000. This is, like, now fun.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. What's happening in 2000?

[B]

Okay. Cider House Rules.

[A]

Great.

[B]

I didn't see that.

[A]

45Th.

[B]

Toby.

[A]

But again, Rob, even 45th is 60 times more box office than any movie that's nominated. Other than.

[B]

Do we have that? And Marty supreme is doing well.

[A]

It is because of that kid, right? Timmy. I admire how much he worked to get that movie to work.

[B]

He did. He pushed hard. Then we have Green Mile. Great movie.

[A]

Tom Hanks.

[B]

Sam Rockwell. Friend of the Pie.

[A]

Yeah, he's great. Crazy.

[B]

That's a great movie. Sixth Sense.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Great movie.

[A]

Breakthrough movie.

[B]

Such a good movie. The Insider.

[C]

That's Michael, man.

[A]

Michael, Man. I didn't see it so good about the Philip Moore Morris 60 Minutes debacle.

[B]

I'll watch it.

[A]

Kurt Russell.

[B]

Can you guess? Can you? Okay, I'll give you a hint.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

See if you can guess. The last movie. It's all. It's. This is a. This is a tough year.

[A]

They were all tough.

[B]

That's my point. I guess you're right. I guess you're right. This movie is scandalous.

[A]

Eyes Wide Shot.

[B]

No, it has. It had someone in it who's now been canceled.

[A]

7. Whatever his name is. Spacey.

[B]

The big one.

[A]

7. No, no. Usual Suspects.

[B]

No. Scandalous.

[A]

Is this where he got sexually harassed at work by Demi Moore? No, that's Michael Douglas.

[B]

There's two women.

[A]

Oh, sexy women.

[B]

And, well, there's three women.

[A]

I think I know what it is. You know what it Is what Is it American Beauty?

[B]

Yes. Good job. Favorite great movie.

[A]

I love that movie.

[B]

What about 98?

[A]

God, did I love American Beauty. That is such a good movie.

[B]

Oh, oh, oh.

[A]

Oh, God. Okay, we're gonna have to cap it at here.

[B]

I want to do one more.

[A]

I know. Maybe we'll do. We'll do. Maybe this will be a runner. We do.

[B]

Okay, but can I do one more?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, do one more. That's why I said, here's where we cap it.

[B]

Okay. Because I just did a random year. I didn't even think about it. Good old hunting.

[A]

Oh, I know. This I should know. This is 96.

[B]

This is 98, which I also thought was too late.

[A]

God, I thought.

[B]

I. I know it's weird.

[A]

I'm very confused by that.

[B]

Okay, hold on, let me. Now I'm nervous. But this is what. AI, no, 98's right. Okay. This year. This year is so hard.

[A]

Goodwill hunting.

[B]

Titanic. As good as it gets. Oh, great movie.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

The Full Monty. Oh, show it an la Confidential. This is.

[A]

Man, Russell Crowe was on fire.

[B]

Yeah, he really was. This is an impossible year, I guess. God, you are. You're right. All these years we're putting in all the movies. At least three. Movies are like nail bites. How will we know?

[A]

I know. Yeah, it's different. It's insanely different. And now you're just like, I don't know. Yeah, there's.

[B]

Because even if you want, like, I want it to be sentimental value, because I. That means movie is so beautiful. And there's also a movie called Sorry Baby that I think is incredible. But they're smaller. Like, they definitely. Yeah.

[A]

The things that would have been at the Independent Spirits Awards that year, and they would have been in the smaller.

[B]

You know, or they might have made it in, but it would have been.

[A]

The point is, there was studio movies that were phenomenal. Now there's only indie movies that are phenomenal. That's the point I'm trying to make.

[B]

We got there.

[A]

Oh, my God. Love you. Let's do some facts.

[B]

Okay. This was wild.

[A]

Yeah, it's one of those. I, we have like five or six a year where after the interview, every single person that bumps into me is going to hear the entire story. Because I think like most, I don't think we were alone and not knowing all the twists and turns of this case.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, the fact that she interacted with law enforcement. He got arrested while she was in captivity. All this stuff is like, if you were watching it in a movie, I, I, you might Call bullshit.

[B]

I know. I have also since watched the doc and you know, we talk in depth on the episode, which is amazing. But there's a lot more in the doc, like a lot more little pieces where you're like, what the.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So like watch it.

[A]

Definitely watch that.

[B]

It's.

[A]

It is so you need to see all the visuals. Like them in the white outfits is so creepy. Oh my God. I was talking to my mother because I was very inclined to share her parting message in the dock as my mother is also a survivor. And so she's laying in bed with her boyfriend dan when I'm FaceTiming her and he's like overhearing me talk about this whole thing and he goes. Because he lived in Salt Lake during that time and he said my ex wife and I saw the. Them. No, yeah, we saw the three people in the white outfits and we were like, what is wrong? What's going on?

[C]

Stop it.

[B]

Yeah, I wonder if I saw them, if I, I mean. No, but like, what are you going to do? Call. What are you going to do, call the police every time you see something that looks a little weird? Like you can't, you can't in this city.

[A]

Yeah, it's, it's, it's a tricky line. I don't know. No, I'm not going to act like a would have somehow done something. But I, I. The thing I get yelled at a lot for, if there was a girl missing. I saw a girl covered head to toe. I think I would, you know, like I, I think I would. Cuz I don't mind confrontation.

[C]

Right.

[B]

But you know what's weird? In that picture, Rob just showed a picture and like, because she's so covered.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's hard to tell that she's a young girl.

[A]

I don't think it is. I mean she's so youthful. That eye, that whole eye section forehead without a single ring. I mean I bet there's a lot of people in Salt like that feel bad that they saw them around.

[B]

Well, that was about to be my question. Do you think Dan's like, oh fuck, like I wish I had done something. But you can't do that because like.

[A]

No, I don't think he thought Elizabeth smart as much as he thought who are these freaks in our town Exactly. That are walking around like it's the 1600s. Exactly. Yeah. He didn't connect the dots like, oh, that might be Elizabeth smart. Cause then maybe he would feel anyone who look any human with a conscience that then learns what happened to her that Knows they could have intervened. Is gonna feel guilty, I think some level of guilt.

[B]

Yeah. But you'd have to have the inclination that, like. Oh, do we. Do. I think maybe that's that girl?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. I guess I won't think about it again. Then you'd feel bad. But I. What I'm saying is, in this city, for. This was happening now and it was this city.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I wouldn't. I wouldn't. There's so many people looking crazy. I mean, just being honest, like, I wouldn't know what was what. I wouldn't. I don't. You know what I mean?

[A]

I do know what you mean. But for me, this is different. This is when you cover a woman's face, you're not Muslim, but I guess.

[B]

We might have to assume they, like, are.

[A]

Well, they don't wear all white. That's true.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So. And they're be. They're white.

[B]

I know, but people convert.

[A]

Yeah, people convert. That, to me looks pretty distinctly different. That, to me looks like when I went to Colorado City, Arizona, to Warren Jeff's fundamentalist compound. You know, I went there three times and drove around that thing. And it's. It's immediately wrong.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The women are dressed as, like, pioneer people. The. The rate of kids that have genetic issues is so unignorable.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It is like a movie.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's not my place to go into their community, per se, but, yeah, for me, if women are being subjugated. Yeah. I'm like, it's on. And I think if you're walking around with one dude and he's got four women covered head to toe and they're not Muslim, I'm not cool with that. I'd have to hear the scenario where everything was honky dory there.

[C]

Right.

[A]

I've yet to hear the scenario where that was, like, a good thing.

[B]

This hearkens back to our last fact. Fact check, which is like, you have an idea of what's right and wrong for you, but we can't really put our right and wrongs on other people unless someone's being hurt.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Which she was.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

But Hezbollah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wouldn't say she was being hurt.

[A]

She wouldn't say she was meant.

[B]

But she was meant by our standards. So this is where things get very slippery.

[A]

Well, they get into autonomy and liberty. Yeah. Do you have the liberty to be subjugated? If you choose. Which is interesting. Like. Yeah.

[B]

But I mean, yeah, if you can tell this as a kid, but at.

[A]

The same time, to pretend we can't delineate the difference between these things, I think is also a lie. Like, I think when, when, when, when men are abusing people. I don't think that's terribly subjective. I don't think clitorectomies are subjective.

[B]

I don't either. But I think you would say in anthropology, in areas like that is a part of their culture and you can't really have a judgment on that.

[A]

And this was my pretty big issue by the end of my anthro degree is I was like, I think it serves an incredible. An imperative tool to walk in without any goal of judging so that you can actually learn and understand. But we have learned and understand stood now what the clitorectomy is about.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that is to deny women pleasure so they don't cheat on their husbands.

[B]

Yeah. It's horrifying.

[A]

And you can suck a dick. I, I have no, you know, I can't. I'm not a, A moral relativist when it comes to hurting little girls.

[B]

Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess it's like, at what point is it like once they turn 18, once. It's like, you know, again, there's some blurry, weird.

[A]

It's.

[B]

It's hard. It is, obviously, yes. I mean, I think, I think that children have to be protected to the fullest extent. But I don't know if you saw that. If you're just like, that's.

[C]

I don't know.

[B]

It's so crazy. It's so horrible. I can't believe she was just. People were walking around, she was stuck like that and so scared to like, oh, it's horrible.

[A]

I think a trick you could, I could get into is when I look back at myself at these different ages, I think I'm older than I was and I think that's pretty common for people. You're kind of using your modern mind to think about what you were. But because I have a 12 year old, it is just crystal clear to me what that experience would be like for her. And it's so gruesome. It's just terrible.

[B]

Terrible. That's so terrible. G. But she's amazing.

[A]

No, the fact that Elizabeth is functioning and walking around and not only functioning, but thriving and as a family is productive is like so one in a million for this scenario.

[B]

It's so aspirational and admirable and. Yeah, okay, a couple facts also. You asked me, right, like, was that part of why you were so scared of kidnapping? But when I was thinking about the timeline. No, because she's My age and that I was in.

[A]

You were done with that by 14.

[B]

Yeah. Or I was still scared, but it had started when I was 5 or something. But you know what's also really upsetting is like when I was first scared of kidnapping and it was in my prayer and stuff, robbers and kidnappers. I. I like poly class. That she was one of the first ones that was kidnapped and that I was young for that.

[A]

I don't recognize that name.

[B]

Oh, it happened in San Francisco and she was kidnapped and it was, I think like a birthday party or something.

[A]

Yeah. Yes.

[B]

Horrible.

[A]

A slumber party at 12.

[B]

Yeah, my mom, like was like obsessed with the poly class thing.

[A]

So she was infected too with the.

[B]

Yeah, she was scared and then it, you know, came. Trickle down effect. Sure. Trickle down economics. To me, it works. And then we were in San Francisco for my mom's work and like there were signs for her up.

[A]

Oh boy.

[B]

But I was so. You know, you do forget to your point when you're like, you think you're older. I didn't know about rape. Looking back, I can only assume that. I just thought like, they just take you and keep you and you're their kid now.

[A]

Right. Maybe they spank you or a lot or something.

[B]

Yeah. But I had no idea what it really meant.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The kidnappings really.

[B]

Just the beginning.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

H. Okay, now.

[B]

Okay. Kidnapping statistics, 2002 versus now. There are many factor stats involved in this that it's hard to find a simple answer. But from AI Kidnapping statistics, particularly for children, show that while public perception in 2002 was heightened due to high profile cases, the actual number of abductions by strangers has remained relatively low and stable or even decrease over the past two decades.

[A]

I think social media and smartphones has to have an impact on the decline. I don't think you could get away with it for as long.

[B]

That's what I said after she left. I was like, I don't think that could happen today. In the same way.

[A]

In the same way.

[B]

Okay, so total missing Children reports.

[A]

In.

[B]

2002, around 725,000 children were reported missing annually to law enforcement. And then in recent years, approximately 2024 missing person files for all ages in the US in 2024, although this is still under the children thing.

[A]

And also missing persons, like your kid didn't come home from a night out.

[B]

And you report says there's over 533,000. The FBI reported a 40% drop in total missing children cases between 97 and 2014.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Also, could you type in what percentage of kidnappings are from a relative or known person, friend, or.

[B]

A significant majority of child kidnappings involve family or acquaintances, not strangers. With older data from the Department of Justice showing 49% by family members, 27% by acquaintances, and 24% by strangers. That's actually higher than I thought.

[A]

It is higher than I would have thought, too. So almost a quarter.

[B]

Yeah. I bit my lip yesterday. Really, really bad. And so now it's like. It's, like, so huge. And now you're talking lower.

[A]

Interesting, because I was looking at your upper lip, and I was like, did you get a little injection?

[C]

Oh, no, I did not.

[A]

Oh, wow. Congratulations. That's the goal. Like, I saw in a comment, some. Some woman wrote, you have to stop wearing eye. Eyeliner.

[B]

You.

[A]

Yeah, And I wrote, I don't wear eyeliner, but thank you for the compliment.

[B]

Exactly. Exactly. Okay. You said alarm systems work in doorways, windows, using magnets. Yeah. When the contact of the magnet breaks, it sets off the alarm. That is correct. Well, those are the facts.

[A]

Those are the facts, Jax. Well, that was an incredible episode.

[B]

I'm so. I'm so grateful she came.

[A]

Me, too.

[B]

And. Oh, my God. And was able. She's just able to talk about it and help people. Like, it's so helpful. And, you know, we have a handful of people like that, like Amanda Knox and even, like, Monica Lewinsky, who are just, like, decide to. To put their own trauma kind of aside for. In order to help other people.

[A]

And it's like, it's not easy.

[B]

No. And it's like, we have to just be so grateful for it. Yeah.

[A]

All right. Love you.

[B]

Happy thousandth, happy thousand.

[A]

Ding, ding, ding, ding, bing, bing.