James L. Brooks (director and producer)

Summary

Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard

Guest: James L. Brooks
Date: December 3, 2025
Episode: James L. Brooks (Director and Producer)

Episode Overview

In this wide-ranging conversation, Dax Shepard and Monica Padman sit down with iconic director, writer, and producer James L. Brooks. Spanning over six decades, Brooks’ career has shaped both television and film—creating genre-defining shows like The Mary Tyler Moore Show, producing The Simpsons, and directing Oscar-winning films like Terms of Endearment and Broadcast News. The episode delves into Brooks’ early life, his creative process, his approach to groundbreaking characters and storylines, reflections on his many successes and setbacks, and his latest film, Ella McKay. The tone is funny, warm, deeply honest, and occasionally poignant as Brooks speaks vulnerably about his childhood, career turning points, and the threads connecting his work.

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Major Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Life and Family Dynamics

• Upbringing: Brooks recalls growing up in Brooklyn and New Jersey, raised mostly by his single mother and older sister after his father left.
  • "It's ever the regret of my life that my mom couldn't see some good things happen to me." — James L. Brooks (06:01)
• Loneliness as Creative Fuel:
  • “In my loneliness, I decided to write. Writing was a world in which I had total control and power... That was a relief.” — James L. Brooks (07:41)
• On bullying: Shares the story of being bullied in high school and later discovering his main tormentor became a federal judge.
  • “I was looking for much worse.” — James L. Brooks (08:25)

2. Breaking into Television

• Early hustle: High school involvement in the school newspaper, interviewing celebrities like Louis Armstrong and Ann Bancroft; second-acting into Broadway shows as a resourceful teen.
  • “I was very resourceful in getting exclusive interviews with very big celebrities.” — James L. Brooks (08:40)
• First big break: Left NYU after finding happiness in college life, then, through luck and initiative, landed entry-level jobs at CBS that led to a stint as a news writer.
  • “You're looking at somebody who brought Edward R. Murrow coffee.” — James L. Brooks (12:44)

3. Transition from News to Sitcoms

• Move to L.A.: Chases love and opportunity, ends up unemployed but gets a foot in the door writing for TV, starting with My Mother the Car, and then working on Andy Griffith Show and My Three Sons.
• Mentorship and Research: Gene Reynolds instilled in him the necessity of relentless research for authenticity in Room 222.
  • “You unconsciously dug deeper by showing up again and again.” — James L. Brooks (15:49)

4. Groundbreaking Work in Television

• Room 222: Among the first shows with multiple Black leads; a tough sell in '60s TV.
• Mary Tyler Moore Show: Co-created with Alan Burns, featuring TV’s first single, working, independent female protagonist; pioneering female representation and changing norms.
  • “There are three things that the public doesn’t like: divorce, Jews, and men with mustaches." — TV executive to Brooks (17:53)
• Norman Lear comparison: Dax notes Brooks was equally seminal in using sitcoms to explore social issues.
• Taxi: Assembled a cast still revered today; research into cab company life informed iconic characters like Danny DeVito’s dispatcher.
  • “When they got off work, they were still hanging around... ‘Me, I want to be a cab driver.’ That became what made our hero a hero.” — James L. Brooks (23:44)
• Casting anecdotes:
  • Danny DeVito's audition: threw the script on the ground: "Who wrote this shit?" (24:17)
  • Andy Kaufman’s condition for the show: they had to hire “Tony Clifton” (his alter ego) as well, with his own dressing room (25:51)

5. Evolution into Movies

• Film vs. TV Divide in the 1970s/1980s: Brooks explains the historical silo between TV and film; TV writers were seen as “unhirable in film.”
  • “There was a wall up. They were contemptuous of us from TV. It’s so crazy how radically that has changed.” — James L. Brooks (35:13)
• Terms of Endearment: Brooks spends four years to get it financed; shares the struggle, the thrill of casting, and the emotional source of the story.
  • “Second time in my life I cried reading a book, you’re not gonna walk away.” (36:19)
  • “If [Jack Nicholson] didn’t do it, nobody could.” (37:59)
• Oscars Triumph: Won for screenplay, directing, and best picture; describes heightened self-consciousness from such recognition.
  • “That the third one, just my mind was blown. So I was just sort of staggering.” (39:57)

6. The Birth and Impact of The Simpsons

• Tracey Ullman, The Simpsons, & Creative Control: How the animated shorts transitioned to a phenomenon, aided by unique contractual creative freedom.
  • “It was a young network, and so I don’t think you would have gotten [such control] out of one that was established.” (45:26)
• Industry Impact: Acknowledges the show's unparalleled cultural and financial success, but emphasizes its community/fresh energy above all.
  • “It’s the longest running scripted show in history.” (46:12)
  • “Nobody second guesses you at this point. It’s just a great atmosphere.” (47:05)
• Financials: Dax presses on aggregate revenue; Brooks refuses specifics, but it's estimated at $14B+.
  • “No, thank heavens.” — James L. Brooks (46:07)

7. Setbacks and Lessons

• I'll Do Anything: Brooks opens up about a high-profile failure and the unique pain of public creative misfires.
  • “It was a big failure... I apologized to everybody I’d worked with to lead them into that.” (47:42)
• Reflections: Discusses the reality of bruising failures, humility, and moving forward.

8. Championing New Voices and Film

• Bottle Rocket: Brooks gives Wes Anderson, Owen Wilson, and Luke Wilson their start after seeing their short film in a pigsty Texas apartment.
  • “They hadn’t ever read it out loud… three and a half hours later... And then there was six months of work.” (49:34)
• Personal Reward: Brooks resists being described as a launchpad for others’ careers, stressing the love of good work itself.

9. Directing Style & Approaches

• As Good As It Gets:
  • Importance of giving even dog actors artistic respect.
  • Casting Greg Kinnear took months ("the toughest"). Emphasis on deeper “work sessions” rather than typical auditions. (52:05–53:17)
• Collaborative Process: The focus on vulnerability, authenticity, and giving actors space to contribute.

10. The New Film: Ella McKay

• Plot & Themes: Explores a young woman (Emma Mackey) navigating the chaos of family scandal, bereavement, and assuming political leadership.
  • Woody Harrelson plays her troubled, philandering father. Jamie Lee Curtis is her aunt and confidante.
• Personal Parallels: Brooks admits the character’s family history echoes his own.
  • “I called him Eddie. My father’s name.” (58:46)
• On Forgiveness:
  • “If forgiveness is always the answer, forgiveness is meaningless. Something has to be unforgivable for forgiveness to mean anything.” — James L. Brooks (59:03)
• Why a female protagonist?: Brooks says he “never thought about it that way,” suggesting both conscious and unconscious reasons for writing women at the center of his stories.
• Central Relationships: The emotional core is the relationship between Ella and her aunt; critiques gendered double standards in how ambitious partners are viewed.

11. Reflections on Gender, Influence, and Growth

• Generational Change: Brooks discusses how depictions of contemporary women have evolved from Mary Tyler Moore to Ella McKay.
  • “Women change. That’s always the question… this is a no-nonsense, public servant we pray for.” (62:51)
• Emotional Growth: On crying, vulnerability, and later-life softness—first cried at his mother’s death, then again reading Terms of Endearment, but now tears come more easily, especially with family.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Why He Writes:
  • “Writing was a world in which I had total control... That was a relief.” (07:41)
• On Andy Kaufman's Tony Clifton Alter Ego:
  • “You have to hire Tony Clifton as well, and give him his own dressing room.” (25:51)
• On Tackling Social Issues in TV:
  • “We’re inventing a paradigm right now: we’re going to talk about some serious stuff in a comedy. That’s just rare and unique.” — Dax Shepard (21:36)
• On Setbacks:
  • “You're spending a few months of your life blushing.” — James L. Brooks, after I’ll Do Anything flopped (48:04)
• On Forgiveness:
  • “If forgiveness is always the answer, forgiveness is meaningless. Something has to be unforgivable for forgiveness to mean anything.” (59:03)
• On Launching Others’ Careers:
  • “It’s not about that. It’s when the work is good, you feel good… I think the cart and horse is very clear to me.” (50:52)
• On the Rewards of Series TV:
  • “There's no better job in the world than working on a television show that's working... you get community you can’t quite get in movies. Babies are born. People get married. You’re all growing up together.” (20:08)

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Key Timestamps

• 03:57 – 07:27: Brooks’ childhood, impact of absent father and hardworking mother
• 08:40 – 10:50: Early resourcefulness; interviews with Armstrong and Bancroft
• 12:01 – 13:26: Landing first TV jobs; early at CBS; Edward R. Murrow anecdote
• 14:19 – 15:43: Connection with Alan Burns; first sitcom writing gigs
• 17:13 – 20:08: The Mary Tyler Moore Show: breaking barriers, pitching challenges, and network resistance
• 23:02 – 24:31: Taxi: blue-collar research; casting DeVito and Kaufman
• 35:01 – 39:57: Transition to film; Terms of Endearment struggle and Oscar wins
• 43:40 – 46:56: The Simpsons: creative control, success, financial scale
• 47:23 – 48:45: First big flop, I'll Do Anything, and how Brooks processed it
• 49:02 – 50:12: Discovering Wes Anderson and Owen Wilson through Bottle Rocket
• 51:32 – 53:17: As Good as It Gets: casting, dog actors, and work sessions
• 54:18 – 63:06: Ella McKay — story summary, casting, and personal connection
• 65:17 – 66:24: On vulnerability, daughters, and crying as an older man

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Overall Tone and Takeaways

James L. Brooks’ humility, candor, and humor shine throughout, making this episode a moving testament to both the messiness and the magic of creating art from real life. Dax and Monica’s genuine fandom and warmth break down any barriers, and Brooks' willingness to share his vulnerabilities and regrets give aspirants and admirers alike a valuable, humanizing perspective on longevity and integrity in entertainment.

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Highly Recommended For:

• Fans of TV/film history and storytelling
• Aspiring writers, showrunners, or directors
• Anyone interested in the evolution of strong female characters
• Those curious about how heartbreak and family shape creativity

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Episode concludes with fact checks, friendly banter, and playful debates on authenticity, attraction, and popular music obsessions—a classic Armchair Expert treat.

Transcript

[Dax Shepard]

Wondry plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now. Join Wondry plus in the Wondry app or on Apple podcasts or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. Experts on Expert. I'm Jan Shepard.

[Monica Padman]

Hello.

[Dax Shepard]

And I'm joined by Monica Padman. We have an absolute titan of show business today, James L. Brooks. He is an academy award winning director, producer and screenwriter. He wrote and directed as Good as it Gets, Terms of Endearment, Broadcast News, the Mary Tyler Moore show, the Simpsons.

[Audience Member/Interjection]

Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

One of the creators of the Simpsons.

[Monica Padman]

And he helped Bottle Rocket.

[Dax Shepard]

He produced Bottle Rocket, which was a mess when he first heard it. As we'll learn, he has a new movie in theaters December 12th. Ella McKay. This was a delight. Very Norman Leares created like a real genre of TV that persists today.

[Monica Padman]

He broke a lot of barriers.

[Dax Shepard]

He did. He did.

[Monica Padman]

Barriers. He broke through a lot of barriers.

[Dax Shepard]

He broke things. Please enjoy James L. Brooks. We are supported by Quints. So I'm standing in my closet the other day and I realize I'm reaching for the same three things over and over again. And they're all coming from quints. Which got me thinking, when did I become that guy who actually cares about where his clothes come from? I'll tell you when. When I discovered Quince.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly. I was at a happy hour a couple days ago with a very cool woman named Margo. Very chic. And I was like, ooh, I love your pants. I love your sweater. And she said, quince, Boom. And I was like, I should have known.

[Dax Shepard]

Should have known. Turns out Quince cracked the code on something I didn't even know was broken. They partnered directly with these ethical factories. Cut out the middlemen. So you get the same Mongolian cashmere that cost 200 bucks elsewhere for 450, same quality. None of the markup. Perfect timing too, because holiday shopping is coming and I actually have good answers for once. Not just clothes either. They've got home stuff, travel gear, all of it. Give and get. Timeless holiday staples that last this season with Quince. Go to quints.comdax for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N c e.comdax free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.comdax this show is sponsored by Better Help. The holidays are all about traditions, right? Some we inherit, others we create ourselves. And honestly, I've been thinking about what new traditions might actually serve Us. Here's one I didn't see coming. Therapy as a holiday tradition. I know, I know. But hear me out. December can be intense. Family dynamics. Year end pressure. All the reflection on what went right or wrong. What if instead of just surviving the season, we used it to actually understand ourselves better? We have talked numerous times about how the holiday season can be a activating event. Yeah, you're with your family.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly. Family dynamics. Also pressure. Moms have pressure. Dads have pressure. For these children. Presents. I have pressure for my gift guide.

[Dax Shepard]

Better help makes it simple to start. They've got over 30,000 licensed therapists who follow a strict code of conduct. And their matching system actually works. We're talking 4.9 out of 5 stars from over 1.7 million reviews. They've helped more than 5 million people globally figure things out. This December, start a new tradition by taking care of you. Armcherries get 10% [e-mail] Dax that's betterhlp.com Dax he's an upchurch.

[Monica Padman]

He's an upchurch.

[James L. Brooks]

How you doing?

[Dax Shepard]

So good.

[James L. Brooks]

How are you? Pleasure. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Great to meet you, Dax. Am I free to call you Jim?

[James L. Brooks]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, great. Are you someone who's perpetually early?

[James L. Brooks]

I try and be on time. I used to be the reverse. And then change my act.

[Dax Shepard]

Because someone forced you to or you just did some soul searching.

[James L. Brooks]

I was working with an actor who has to remain nameless. Who was always late. Always late. I flew and he said I'd pick me up. No, don't pick me up. I'll get there. Don't pick me up. 2 hours late waiting there. Oh.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh.

[James L. Brooks]

This is a big star. Where I'm really. I think I finally figured out that it was a sort of social distancing thing. Cause every interaction would deacon with him apologizing for 20 minutes, you know. Sure, sure, sure.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. What did time suck? It's like you're late and you gotta apologize for so long. The day's gone. Let's try this again tomorrow. So you were born in Brooklyn in 1940. But how quickly do we move to New Jersey?

[James L. Brooks]

I was 2, I think. So that's my only memory really.

[Dax Shepard]

How far from the city were you in New Jersey?

[James L. Brooks]

We were up a hill that was directly across from 72nd street in New York City where I ended up getting an apartment one day. And as a kid I was looking across down the hill at that point.

[Dax Shepard]

And then at one point you were looking back at home.

[James L. Brooks]

It was almost. If you drew a straight line.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[James L. Brooks]

And that Hit me one day.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Did it fill you with satisfaction?

[James L. Brooks]

It was emotional because I was not in a great environment and I was not a happy kid.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I get to talk to people with a lot of childhood stuff, myself included. Yours is really up there publicly. So dad leaves mom the second she's pregnant with you?

[James L. Brooks]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

I think it explains your career in a big way. And maybe you'll agree with me, or not agree with me, but I was raised by a single mother who was a gangster who was working nonstop and building a career. And I was in the shadow of a very impressive woman. And I think it helped me throughout my life have an appropriate amount of respect for women. And I'm just wondering if you think being raised by just your mom, watching her kill herself and all that played a role ultimately.

[James L. Brooks]

Well, it was my mom and my sister was eight years older than I. Oh, okay. So she was saddled with me quite a bit. It's ever the regret of my life that my mom couldn't see some good things happen to me.

[Dax Shepard]

She was 22 when she died.

[James L. Brooks]

No, no, no, no.

[Dax Shepard]

I mean, I'm sorry. You were 22 when she died? Yeah. Obviously, she's going to have both of you with an eight year gap.

[James L. Brooks]

Yeah. My sister had become divorced, so she moved home. I had a job as an usher in New York that I commuted to after high school. And between the three of us, life became a little easier economically with the.

[Dax Shepard]

Both of them contributing.

[James L. Brooks]

She worked six days a week, two nights a week.

[Monica Padman]

What was she doing?

[James L. Brooks]

She sold children's clothes.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, wow.

[Dax Shepard]

And your dad was a furniture salesman.

[James L. Brooks]

Furniture salesman.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you think you were imbued with that sense of like, go get them, walk into a room, win him over? Was that stuff trickling down?

[James L. Brooks]

Maybe the opposite. But my father was more than a salesman. He was a to man takeover. That means if somebody was walking out of the store without buying, he'd stop him at the door and try and get him back. So that's the kind of salesman he was.

[Dax Shepard]

That's hardcore. They've already declared they don't want this.

[Monica Padman]

So he was in your life still at that point?

[James L. Brooks]

Yes. He left when I was maybe 13.

[Monica Padman]

Got it.

[Dax Shepard]

Now, did you have any contact with him? Did he get to observe any of this stuff or did he observe from afar?

[James L. Brooks]

He was a bad guy.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. You describe kind of being lonely in that period. You were by yourself quite a bit, I imagine.

[James L. Brooks]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

All right, let's break this down before you.

[James L. Brooks]

God.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Tell me, tell me. Is this uncomfortable?

[James L. Brooks]

Yeah, it Is. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[James L. Brooks]

No, I like, this is my rap. I'm right at home. Yeah. No, no.

[Dax Shepard]

I just think all these seeds are there. In my loneliness, I decided to write. Writing was a world in which I had total control and power and say over what everyone did. That was a relief. I love that different things bring different people to writing for different reasons. And I'm just curious how much of that you think is in the soup.

[James L. Brooks]

I was in high school and I was a bullied kid.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[James L. Brooks]

As a matter of fact, at a certain point, a long time ago. But I got into thinking about the guy who bullied me so much when I was in high school. And I made an effort to find out what happened to him. Federal judge. Oh, really? Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

I was expecting worse for him.

[Monica Padman]

I know that's what you want.

[Dax Shepard]

Some bullies are kind of industrious, I guess.

[Monica Padman]

I mean, I guess in some ways he's still a bully.

[James L. Brooks]

No, I was looking for much worse.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, yes. Perhaps the turnaround salesman that gets people at the door to. What did you call it?

[James L. Brooks]

Takeover.

[Dax Shepard]

Takeover. Takeover. You were pursuing writing and you were writing comedy stuff when you were young and you were submitting.

[James L. Brooks]

I wrote for the school newspaper. We were a high school of 300, and I was very resourceful in getting exclusive interviews with very big celebrities.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Louis Armstrong.

[James L. Brooks]

And that's what I always say. Blessed moment in my life. And I was alone with him backstage as a kid reporter. I asked him a question that he hadn't been asked. How do you take care of your lips?

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, really?

[James L. Brooks]

And he lit up and he brought out drawers of stuff. Turned out to be a major part of his prep for performing.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, right. Trumpeters are neurotic about their mouth. Right? It's everything. There's a draw full of, like, ointments and topicals.

[James L. Brooks]

Oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

Was he applying any of them in front of you?

[James L. Brooks]

But he was delighted to show his.

[Dax Shepard]

How did you get in touch with him?

[James L. Brooks]

I don't know how I did it. I did letters. I somehow got myself backstage as a high school kid with Ann Bancroft, who was then just crazy, the gorgeous toast of Broadway. And I was trying to flirt with her. I think she was in her 20s at the time. I'm a high school kid or something like that. She was very nice. I saw her standing in a circle. I second acted. You know what second acting is?

[Dax Shepard]

No.

[James L. Brooks]

I worked as an usher. And as I walked home, this is my after school job. I walked through the theater district in New York, and I walked in at precisely the time that they had the break between first and second acts. You look for a stub and you sneak into the theater and you go to the worst seats. You don't go to a hit. So I saw the second act of everything.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. You kind of sneaking in and getting a free second act.

[Monica Padman]

Were you very enamored by celebrities?

[James L. Brooks]

Specific ones. I mean, when I saw Bancroft, she was talking to, I think Mike Nichols, and I was shaking.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[James L. Brooks]

And I went over to her and I'm 17 years old or 16. 17 years old. Ms. Bancroft, I have this play.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, wow.

[James L. Brooks]

She said, send it to me. So I course dropped it off and I got a note from her. I guess it was a letter. I don't understand your play. I'm sorry.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Audience Member/Interjection]

What?

[James L. Brooks]

Feedback.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't understand you.

[James L. Brooks]

I'm sorry. I don't know why. Oh. Oh, okay. But if you're ever in the neighborhood of the such and such theater and want to talk to me, I'm there. So it was this amazing thing. Yeah, I mean, so it was explosive for me.

[Dax Shepard]

When you came to know Cameron Crowe many years later, did you find that shared history endearing to you? That he had had that similar super.

[James L. Brooks]

Young working out, but he was a wunderkind. He was a hit reporter for Rolling Stone when he was 15 years old.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm sure you were the hit of your high school if you're a securing.

[James L. Brooks]

No, everybody resented it because there'd always be a picture of the high school kid with the celebrity. Yeah. So my picture was in the paper all the time. Sure, sure. The athletes hated him. Their picture wasn't in the paper all the time.

[Dax Shepard]

Fueling that federal judge. Yeah. Really. The son of a bitch did it again. He's a Louis Armstrong. So you do end up NYU after high school, but then you leave because you have a job at CBS News?

[James L. Brooks]

No, because I screwed up. Because it was the first time where I was happy. High school had been awful, and somehow I started to have a normal kid's life in college. And it was because there was a fraternity that had a townhouse and was on campus. And I got in there and then it was better than anything I'd known. I had a lot of friends and girlfriend, so I just didn't go to class.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[James L. Brooks]

You know, it was awful. That's what happened.

[Dax Shepard]

You were having too much fun to go to class?

[James L. Brooks]

Yeah, I was having my first fun.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm glad you prioritized that.

[James L. Brooks]

My sister got me a job as an usher. It was my first lucky Break. And usually you had to be a college graduate at that time to be anything because that was the first foot in the door. And then they started to theoretically promote you.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah.

[James L. Brooks]

And then I got another great lucky break because they used. They call them pages. And we filled in for notches above us jobs when the notches above us job went on vacation and I got a notches above me fill in job as a copy boy at CBS News.

[Dax Shepard]

Through the news.

[James L. Brooks]

Yeah. And the guy never came back. That was a big break. So I got that job I could never have gotten any other way.

[Dax Shepard]

And then you are a full time employed copywriter for CBS News.

[James L. Brooks]

I'm just cleaning up the machines. You're looking at somebody who brought Edward R. Murrow coffee.

[Dax Shepard]

So. Oh, wow.

[James L. Brooks]

Oh, wow.

[Dax Shepard]

Wow.

[James L. Brooks]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

You're like a magnet to celebrity. When do you start writing there?

[James L. Brooks]

I was promoted to a news writer. I had gotten over my fears. Gotten over the hump. For some reason, I was afraid I'd end up selling women's shoes. Oh, interesting. I mean, I had an active fear of, you know, like you have a fear of insects or something like that.

[Dax Shepard]

Was there a popular play where the protagonist sold women? That's like a trope. I mean, obviously Al Bundy ended up doing it. And that was a trope.

[James L. Brooks]

Well, maybe. I don't know.

[Dax Shepard]

I think there's a trope about selling women's shoes.

[Monica Padman]

It is very specific. We have a friend who sold women's shoes.

[James L. Brooks]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

But he loved it because he has a foot fetish.

[James L. Brooks]

Why?

[Dax Shepard]

Because he had a foot fetish. Well, or still has.

[Monica Padman]

We don't know if it started. It might have started.

[James L. Brooks]

It started.

[Dax Shepard]

He worked for his dad's shoe place in downtown la. And lo and behold, now he has a foot fetish.

[James L. Brooks]

It's a very tough job.

[Dax Shepard]

How on earth do you decide to leave the security of that job to come to LA in, what, 1965?

[James L. Brooks]

I was in love with a woman and she and her roommate decided that they were going to move to California. And they did. And I quit. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Scary.

[James L. Brooks]

Somebody I had known at CBS News had left and gone to do documentaries in California. And he gave me a job. Then I got laid off from that job after six months. My wife was supporting me for a while and I was out of work for about six months. And then I got my first writing job.

[Dax Shepard]

You met Alan Burns at a party. Is that apocryphal or the truth?

[James L. Brooks]

He had five shows on the air. The Monsters was his and the shows.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

[James L. Brooks]

And I met him at a party where we were grumpy documentarians. And it was New Year's Eve and he came in from some fancy thing and he was wearing a tuxedo and he's great looking guy, looked wealthy, a beautiful human. Somehow I ended up saying, I want to write. And he got me a chance to write a show. Was my mother the car.

[Dax Shepard]

Right, right, right, right. Your first writing job.

[James L. Brooks]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

But that turned into. You wrote episodes of the Andy Griffith show, My Three Sons.

[James L. Brooks]

We won. Yes, yes.

[Dax Shepard]

And then that slowly snowballs into you creating room 211.

[James L. Brooks]

Room 222.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. And that's 1970. 1969. 68.

[James L. Brooks]

69. Somewhere in there.

[Dax Shepard]

Now, this show's kind of shockingly ahead of its time in a lot of ways. It had only the second black lead character on a TV show ever, and.

[James L. Brooks]

The first to have more than one.

[Dax Shepard]

Ye tried to talk you out of that at some point.

[James L. Brooks]

It was a tough sale. There's this guy, Gene Reynolds, who was a very big director, producer, and a ferociously ethical guy. So they try to say. The pilot episode I wrote after so much research, because he was a big research guy.

[Dax Shepard]

And he's the guy who taught you.

[James L. Brooks]

This technique which has stuck with me, insisted on it. Hey, I did it, I did it, I did it. I went to the high school, I hung with the teacher. Go back, go back, go back, go back, go back, go back a lot. So that what I thought would be a week of my life became months of my life. And I'm glad it stuck.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. What specifically was revealed in that process that you found so useful?

[James L. Brooks]

Authenticity. You've unconsciously dug deeper by showing up again and again and again. It starts to be, oh, that's interesting to you take it in. You get it just by going back.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. You carried that forward through all your projects. When you're thinking of approaching something, time is such a valuable commodity. How much time are you building in for that research? And is that ever cumbersome?

[James L. Brooks]

It's great. You enjoy it. You step out of your life, you know.

[Dax Shepard]

But you did 112 episodes of that.

[James L. Brooks]

Show, I think, and it won an Emmy for best new show. And because of this Gene Reynolds, it was the real deal. He wanted to get it right. He put the whip on us to get it right. So it was just a break getting mentored by somebody like that.

[Dax Shepard]

And then next you go on in 1970 to create Mary Tyler Moore Show.

[James L. Brooks]

Co create with Alan Burns, the nice.

[Dax Shepard]

Gentleman from the New Year's Eve party. The dapper, successful man. This show really deserves an examination. I guess I don't even think I realized because I'm still five years from being born. So I didn't grow up watching it or excuse. Okay, thank you, thank you, thank you. That was the first ever female lead that wasn't dependent on a man. That was like an independent employee, I think. So again, back to mom or where this comes from. Her older sister. This is kind of some pioneering stuff you're doing.

[James L. Brooks]

Before this, the great comedy on the air, the thing where you say, oh, there can be that kind of quality was the Dick Van Dyke Show.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[James L. Brooks]

Which won the Emmy, all the Emmys every year, forever and ever. It was Carl Reiner and it was Sheldon Leonard and it was really everybody's bible. I mean, you just were in awe.

[Dax Shepard]

A lot of famous writers on that show too.

[James L. Brooks]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You were just in awe of the show. And then she had an on the air commitment from cbs and strangely, they gave us the shot.

[Dax Shepard]

And was that embraced immediately by Mary Tyler Moore?

[James L. Brooks]

Yes. The network didn't want us. So it was sort of amazing because it's an infamous story. But when we went to pitch and we pitched through a semicircle of executives, we had come in with the idea that Mary be divorced and she had to build a new life. One of these eight guys, the guy, the programming guy, said there are three things that the public doesn't like divorce. Jews and men with mustaches.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wow, what a list.

[Monica Padman]

Wow.

[James L. Brooks]

Looking at me, who had a mustache and is a Jew.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[James L. Brooks]

As he said, it sounds surreal. It's happened.

[Dax Shepard]

Were you divorced yet? Maybe you were three out of three. I was gonna say you were two out of three, but maybe you were three out of three.

[Monica Padman]

He came from divorce, so he experienced it.

[Dax Shepard]

Wow. That feels very specific to you.

[James L. Brooks]

Yes. And we were asked to leave the room and Grant stayed and he came out and he look pretty angry and he said, let's go. And two or three years later, we found out they had ordered him to fire us. And he said no.

[Monica Padman]

Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

So Mary Tyler More show has this epic seven year run. You guys get nominated for Emmys? Do you win a Peabody for this show? Is this the first?

[James L. Brooks]

I'm not sure.

[Dax Shepard]

We're obsessed with the Peabody. You've got a couple of them.

[Monica Padman]

I'm sure you won for that, if it exists. I don't know how long it's been around the Peabody.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, he racked up some Peabody's. I just feel like this is maybe the first one. Did you have any awareness that what you were doing was unique as far as writing a female driven show? Did you have a sense of that or did it just feel like this is any other show? And I'm not even really thinking of it as anything unique.

[James L. Brooks]

You know, I came from a newsroom.

[Dax Shepard]

And you set it in a newsroom.

[James L. Brooks]

The character of her boss was pretty much based on somebody who was sort of a legendary editor. So there was some personal writing in it for me.

[Monica Padman]

It's scary to take on, I think, writing for a woman at that time in a very strong character we didn't normally see. Was it scary or no? You guys were just like, no, this is normal.

[James L. Brooks]

It was a ball.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I bet it was thrilling.

[James L. Brooks]

And Grant at that time was the vice president of a studio, so he could not knowingly participate in it. He couldn't really talk to us because he'd be crossing some lines someplace to really do it. So we didn't have a boss. We didn't have anybody to answer to for that moment. We need somebody's approval finally. But not even that, because she had an on the air commitment. It was amazing. And we were innocent, so it was even better.

[Dax Shepard]

It's fun to work on a hit show as well. That's getting recognized too, right?

[James L. Brooks]

There's no better job in the world than working on a television show that's working, you know, because you get community. You can't quite get into movies. The movie I just finished, it was fantastic. Relationship with everybody. It really was great. But when you have a series, babies get born, people get married. You're all growing up together.

[Dax Shepard]

I did six years on a show, and it's like the happiest work experience of my life.

[James L. Brooks]

Best job.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Watching people get married and have kids. All those things really being a part of their life. And it has the illusion of security like the rest of it doesn't. It's like you at least know you're going there 22 times this year. Yeah. And then hopefully next time. It's a coveted role to have. And then you have some spin offs from that. You do Rhoda and then you do Lou Grant. That's the one that wanted Peabody. Now I have my notes. You got your first Peabody for Lou Grant, I want to add. So Mary Taylor Moore is doing this thing where you guys are tackling kind of popular, important issues within the framework of a sitcom. Norman Lear becomes ultimately very recognized as doing that as well. But you are doing that with the Mary Tyler Moore show as the whole.

[James L. Brooks]

Notion of woman Is changing. The timing was exquisite.

[Dax Shepard]

Women are hitting the workforce in record numbers, and divorce is high.

[James L. Brooks]

I have deja vu because the movie that I just finished also has this central character of Also. Her name is in the title. Ella McKay. It's so crazy that I hadn't quite gotten that.

[Dax Shepard]

The connective tissue between those.

[James L. Brooks]

Yeah, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Full circle.

[Dax Shepard]

We're inventing a paradigm right now, which is like, we're gonna talk about some serious stuff in a comedy that's just rare and unique. Were you aware of, oh, this is new, or it was just happening? And in retrospect, you're like, oh, I guess we did create something.

[James L. Brooks]

We followed all in the Family, which was breaking down every door and everything that was revolutionizing. So we got to be the show after the show, breaking down every door. We walked in the door, okay.

[Dax Shepard]

The vanguard had come through. Now, this one, I got to say, just because now this is the first show I'm old enough to consume and love. I would have thought this show is on for 10 years, which is Taxi. Do you think Taxi is a little bit like Shawshank Redemption, where people think it was bigger or more successful than it was?

[James L. Brooks]

We followed a formulaic comedy. That was the number one show. So we got seen. Emmys came our way. We still have Zoom reunions. It was that championship season. People look in the rearview mirror and said, that was the time of my life. We knew it was the time of our life then.

[Monica Padman]

That's lucky.

[James L. Brooks]

We didn't wait for a rearview mirror. We relished it, man. Yeah, it was great.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I want to know the things that made it great on the outside. It looks like the most obvious thing to me is you took all this cultural capital you had acquired and you used it to assemble, really, the craziest cast maybe ever on TV at that point, or definitely of your shows. Right.

[James L. Brooks]

I wanted to do Men. Seven years. I wanted to do Men.

[Dax Shepard]

And Blue collar was a goal as well.

[James L. Brooks]

Yeah. And then there was a magazine article in New York magazine about a small taxi company in New York. And the article pointed out that they all had Johnny Tomorrow dreams. They wanted to be this. They wanted to be an actor. And there was something, you know, Eugene o' Neill about it. We went to the research thing. So I'm in a cab company, and I'm there for a day where I was just there for 14 hours. They knew I was there for research. And the guy who ran it, the manager who was in the cage dispatching tanks, the Danny DeVito, the real guy, a cab driver, Was slipping him money to get a clean cab, a cab in good condition. The whole character came from that place.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure. He's like sleazy on the griff.

[James L. Brooks]

So that was just. God bless it, you know, just landing in your lap. And then some of them, when they got off work, they were still hanging around. I didn't know why they were hanging around. And then this guy came in and all the others the article had been about, they all wanted to be something else. And when I asked him and he was charismatic, you could see the buzz when he came in and he says, me, I want to be a cab driver. That became what made our hero a hero.

[Dax Shepard]

Ah, he wanted to be there. Danny DeVito. Had he been in Stuff. Is that a discovery?

[James L. Brooks]

It's a famous audition.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, it is.

[James L. Brooks]

Because we were looking and looking and looking. If you know the show, you know the character for his audition, he came in and the first thing he did was throw the script on the floor and say, who wrote this shit? And we fell on the floor and he was the guy.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Danny DeVito. Before you've seen Danny DeVito. And what about. I mean, Andy Kaufman, maybe the craziest comedian of all time. Having to show up on set at a certain time and be this thing. Predictably. How did you come to.

[James L. Brooks]

It's hard to explain. A unique guy for people to imagine what he was. But I went to a club where he was performing and I'm waiting to see him. And there's this awful comic who's on stage. Not only unfunny, but vile and insulting people in the audience.

[Dax Shepard]

Is his name Tony?

[James L. Brooks]

Tony Clifton?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Oh my gosh. You knew that? How did you know that?

[Dax Shepard]

You'll hear why.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, okay, okay, okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Incredible. So you got to see Tony Clifton perform.

[James L. Brooks]

Yeah. And just offending and people hooting.

[Dax Shepard]

He's lucky if he doesn't get beat up on stage.

[James L. Brooks]

And his manager comes up and whispers and says, that's Andy. And Andy was in all this thing and it's just mind blowingly brilliant.

[Monica Padman]

No.

[James L. Brooks]

And never gives it away. And then comes out as Andy and does Foreign man and is hysterical and does the things that if you Google it, you'll see what he did then.

[Dax Shepard]

His tolerance to be hated. I just can't comprehend doing these Tony Clifton sets. And he would go occasionally on talk shows as Tony Clifton, but maybe that's.

[Monica Padman]

A way to do it because it's not him. He's putting on this disguise.

[James L. Brooks]

You did Tony Clifton and in order to be on the show On Taxi, he said you have to hire Tony Clifton as well, and you have to. You have to give him his own dressing room. So there are two dressing rooms.

[Dax Shepard]

Why were you willing to play ball? I love the maker. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace, the all in one website platform designed to help you stand out and succeed online. When we were building the Armchair Expert website, Rob actually used Squarespace to get it up and running, which was a smart choice because they've got everything you need in one place to create something that actually looks professional. What really stands out is their blueprint AI feature. It's like having a design assistant that helps you build a site that doesn't look like every other cookie cutter template out there. Answer a few questions about what you're trying to do, and it creates something that actually fits your vision. If you're someone who offers services, whether that's coaching, consulting, creative work, whatever, Squarespace handles all the business stuff too. Payment processing, scheduling, client management. No more juggling five different platforms just to get paid for what you do. The whole thing is designed so you can focus on your actual work instead of wrestling with website tech, which, let's be hon, most of us would rather avoid. So head to squarespace.comdax for a free trial. And when you're ready to Launch, use code DAX to save 10 off your first purchase of a website or domain.

[Monica Padman]

Guys, thanks for helping me carry my Christmas tree.

[Dax Shepard]

Zoe, this thing weighs a ton.

[James L. Brooks]

Brisky.

[Dax Shepard]

Live with your legs, man. Santa.

[Monica Padman]

Santa, did you get my letter?

[Dax Shepard]

He's talking to you, Bridges. I'm not.

[Monica Padman]

Of course he did.

[Dax Shepard]

Right, Santa, you know my elf, Drew Ski here.

[James L. Brooks]

He handles the night. And elf.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm six' three. What everyone wants is iPhone 17 and at T Mobile, you can get it on them. That center stage front camera is amazing for group selfies. Right, Mrs. Claus?

[Monica Padman]

I'm Mrs. Claus's much younger sister. And AT T Mobile, there's no trade in needed when you switch, so you can keep your old phone or give.

[James L. Brooks]

It as a gift.

[Monica Padman]

And the best part, you can make the switch to T Mobile from your phone in just 15 minutes.

[James L. Brooks]

Nice.

[Dax Shepard]

My side of the tree is slipping.

[James L. Brooks]

The holidays are better.

[Dax Shepard]

AT T Mobile switch in just 15 minutes and get iPhone 17 on us with no trade in needed. And now T Mobile is available in US cellular stores with 24 monthly bill credits for well qualified customers, plus tax and $35 vice connection charge, credit and balance due if you pay off earlier. Cancel financing agreement. 256 gigs $830 eligible Ford in a new line $100 plus a month plan with auto payments, taxes and fees required. Check out in 15 minutes or less per line.

[Monica Padman]

Visit t mobile.com the wait is over.

[Audience Member/Interjection]

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[Monica Padman]

Holy cow.

[Audience Member/Interjection]

Dax, Monica and I. I don't want this conversation to end. And I'm so glad you're here with us. And the other thing, I can't believe Dax loves the Let Them Theory. He can't stop talking about it. I hope you're loving listening as much as I love having you here. And I also know since you love listening to Armchair Expert, you know who you're gonna love listening to? The Let Them Theory audiobook. And guess who reads it?

[Monica Padman]

Me.

[Audience Member/Interjection]

And even if you've read the book, guess what? The audiobook is different. I tell different stories. I riff, I cry. You're gonna love it. Cause it's gonna feel like I'm right there next to you. We're in this together as we learn to stop controlling other people. So thanks again for listening to this episode of Armchair Expert. And check out the audiobook version of the Let Them Theory read by yours truly, available now on Audible. You can even try it out for free with an Audible trial. Download the Audible app today.

[Dax Shepard]

So when he had his own dressing room.

[James L. Brooks]

Yeah, and he's seminal. He started performance art. I think there was a time when he was wrestling. He wrestled women, he insulted women and then said, wrestle me. I can beat any women. Then they would really wrestle. And then he went in a real wrestling ring and got. And it was a front page story because he was known at that point.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, he hurt his neck and he came out in a neck brace. He went on a tour bashing the guy who hurt him.

[James L. Brooks]

And then I found out it was fake and it was on front pages.

[Dax Shepard]

You know he's gonna sue the guy. Then he wanted a rematch.

[James L. Brooks]

If you watch the thing, it's a body slam where he's upside down and the guy holding him goes like that so that you're wincing. But when you really slow it down, you see that it was set up. You see that he stopped just short of the slam and they made the noise.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

But yeah. Are you on set? Like, who's gonna show up today?

[James L. Brooks]

Yeah, sort of. And Tony showed up with two prostitutes one day.

[Monica Padman]

Sure. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Wow. Did you shoot that here or in New York?

[James L. Brooks]

We shoot it here. My partner at Weinberger, who Andy had told this was gonna happen. And he said, ed, I need you to really punish me, but punish Tony. When he comes in and he comes in with the two prostitutes, Ed goes crazy. Calls the security guards who are not in on it. The security guards, like almost in a cartoon, drag him and throw him out of the gate. Where he calls Ed and said, thanks. That was one of the greatest.

[Dax Shepard]

And what I just love is like, it's for nobody but him.

[James L. Brooks]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

What purity did you feel like? You got to know Andy. Were there moments of sincerity?

[James L. Brooks]

No, it was sort of great. Cause you'd go over and give him a note and he'd do it. Exactly. But as you gave it to him, he'd be like Andy, wondering who you were and stuff like that. But then he did the notes solidly.

[Dax Shepard]

Because he stayed in Latke.

[James L. Brooks]

Yeah. He did amazing work on the show. I mean, like crazy.

[Dax Shepard]

If you're a kid and you don't know about Andy Kaufman, you're watching that guy, you think that guy's real. He's a very good character.

[James L. Brooks]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

How exciting that you cast him.

[James L. Brooks]

He came from a country that he invented a language. You know, he talked a foreign language. He was vaguely Eastern European language on the show. And so that we can make up the customs of this mythical country and got episodes out of it.

[Monica Padman]

Wow, what a gift.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. And then Christopher Lawy, was he a known commodity.

[James L. Brooks]

He and Danny had both been in Cuckoo's Nest, part of that group.

[Dax Shepard]

The most memorable scene of all the Taxi episodes that made me laugh the hardest is Jim. Christopher Lloyd's character is having to pass the driver's license exam.

[James L. Brooks]

It's the record setting laugh. I don't know, we can render it, but basically you have to know the character who was burnt out from drugs. That was basically it.

[Dax Shepard]

He's the dumbest guy imaginable. He shouldn't be driving a cab.

[James L. Brooks]

Everything's missing. But with everything missing, he has sort of a blissful humanity and insight.

[Dax Shepard]

Kind of a Chauncey Gardener.

[James L. Brooks]

Yes. And he's a cab driver. And they find out he doesn't have a driver's license.

[Dax Shepard]

So he has to take them to help him cheat.

[James L. Brooks]

He can't. And the whole company comes and pretends they're filling out forms while he's in the desk taking the test. He says, what does a flashing yellow light mean? They coach him and they say, slow down. He says, what does.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, what.

[James L. Brooks]

Okay, does. This is the permutations. We went eight times, ten times. Each time the laugh bigger than the.

[Dax Shepard]

Time before because as you'd imagine, he's going slowly. The last one is like, what?

[James L. Brooks]

The last one. And the audience, it's gone like this. And the editors says, cut. And I went crazy because it was just. When are they going to stop increasing their laughter?

[Dax Shepard]

Let's find out. Let's blow it up.

[James L. Brooks]

Yeah, I can get upset now. I am a little upset.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. What a thing to witness. To witness the greatest laugh in live audience ever. Oh, you must go watch it. Everyone should take five minutes and watch that. It's so delightful. And then I'll throw Tony Danza in there, too. When he walks in, he's so Tony Danza. Are you immediately like, oh, this is ideal.

[James L. Brooks]

I don't think he'd ever acted. And he was a fighter, and I went to see him fight.

[Dax Shepard]

No kidding.

[James L. Brooks]

There was a very rough sort of boxing world guy, and he says, can't win, but he has a great punch. If he lands, he knocks you out. He was a middleweight.

[Dax Shepard]

How was he even in contention to act in this thing if he hadn't act and he was boxing?

[James L. Brooks]

I really believe we were looking for a boxer because everybody had a dream in the cab company, and his was.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't know if anyone's looked better in a wife beater than our friend Tony Danza. Boy, can you wear that tank top? Okay, now you've had all this crazy success in television up to taxi. What is the pull to movies? Is it a more expansive creative space or is it ego, or is it both?

[James L. Brooks]

I can truly say it's not ego.

[Dax Shepard]

But for people that were not born in the 90s and have watched television have as much cachet as films. People need to understand that back then, film and television, at the time I.

[James L. Brooks]

Got there, if you were in television, you were unhirable in films.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[James L. Brooks]

There was a wall up. They were contemptuous of us from tv. It's so crazy how radically that has changed.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[James L. Brooks]

I mean, you can't make an inch without somebody offering you a movie. It's Almost impossible for you to conceive. An absolute wall. Get out of here. If you're from television. And I think Ron Howard was the first one over the fence. And then I got there.

[Dax Shepard]

So the first movie, Starting Over. Candice Bergen and Jill Kleber both get nominated for Academy Awards.

[James L. Brooks]

I didn't direct that. I wrote it.

[Dax Shepard]

You just wrote it?

[James L. Brooks]

Not just.

[Dax Shepard]

So you really had nothing to do with that. Okay, so you write that one, and that gets you into the film world, and the film is successful and critically adored. This kind of shocks me. The next movie's Terms of Endearment.

[Monica Padman]

Iconic again.

[Dax Shepard]

What an insane cast. This shocks me. It took you four years to get financing for this movie. Did you have the cast already?

[James L. Brooks]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

It was a book you adapted.

[James L. Brooks]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

What sang to you about that? Why was that like, oh, I'll spend four years trying to get this made.

[James L. Brooks]

When I read the book, it was the second time in my life that I cried when I got to the ending. I've since improved. Improved on that front. Kids will do that to you. The second time in my life I cried. You're not gonna walk away. I had to do it. And it was a very tricky road because there was a movie star of decades earlier who had the rights and wanted to play the Shirley MacLaine part. She was wrong for the part.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Right.

[James L. Brooks]

That she wanted to do.

[Dax Shepard]

That was tricky. Or a hurdle.

[James L. Brooks]

Well, it was just being patient. I had the most amazing time because it was actresses in their 50s. It was the part that comes along when all that shit is happening about age and all that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[James L. Brooks]

So I just had this time of sitting down with great women who had done great work, almost all of them at that time. And I hadn't come to Shirley yet for some reason. And she had a super agent who. I don't remember the name. She was the reigning agent at the time, Sue Mangers. She called me and she said, you know, Potts, you haven't seen Shirley yet.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, when are you coming?

[James L. Brooks]

And then I went to see her, and that was it.

[Monica Padman]

Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

How did you get Nicholson?

[James L. Brooks]

Deborah Winger got me Nicholson.

[Dax Shepard]

She did?

[James L. Brooks]

Yeah. Because I couldn't get a script to him, you know.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. I mean, devito's a shoo in. Right. You're gonna get devito. He's gotta pick up the phone and be in the. Yes, that makes sense. But Nicholson, she got him in. And what was your working relationship with him?

[James L. Brooks]

Actor of his time. The talent was so great. But that kind of talent, with all the charisma in the World. What, are you kidding me? Yeah. And, you know, we did a picture as Good as it Gets where if he didn't do it, nobody could do it because he had permission from people to play this wretched core character as the star of a movie.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, that's true.

[James L. Brooks]

Yeah. I wouldn't have made it. He was the only one. You could get away with it.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

He's the only one that could have pulled that off.

[James L. Brooks]

Yeah. And he's everything.

[Dax Shepard]

Was it easy for you to give him notes or was it intimidating?

[James L. Brooks]

You go legally insane when you direct.

[Dax Shepard]

I think you're in such a bubble.

[James L. Brooks]

That's it. You don't know the difference between right and wrong anymore. You're obsessed with one. Flawed. Everything else slips away. Yeah. You're being paid to be obsessed past reason.

[Dax Shepard]

Wake up, think of nothing else till you go to bed for months.

[James L. Brooks]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So it wasn't hard for you.

[James L. Brooks]

No. You lose yourself in it. You go away, and you're trying to serve the thing. I mean, you have to get out of your own way.

[Dax Shepard]

Now, I've never met him, haven't worked with him, but I have a hunch, if he wanted, he could. Could charm you out of anything you wanted, I guess, is my hunch, because he's so charismatic.

[James L. Brooks]

I'm f. Because you can't convey it. But he'd come up to me and say, you want to know the worst direction you gave today? And then he'd also, do you want to know the best direction you gave today? He worked. We worked. You know, it wasn't like, is he okay today? He did the work.

[Dax Shepard]

This is just to geek out for one second on Jack Nicholson. One of my favorite things is the department, simply because we've got every single one of the actors. Like, let's bring them all in, and let's put them in a wide shot, and let's just see who you stare at. And I just kept thinking, the whole movie. Oh, yeah, man. There could be two bears fighting. And if Nicholson's in frame, I'm just on them. That's just a once in a lifetime kind of impossible charisma.

[James L. Brooks]

Historically, fantastic.

[Dax Shepard]

What a dude. Okay, so that movie is just wildly successful. I'm wondering how you took that in. You win best adapted screenplay, you win best picture, you win best director. Nicholson wins best supporting. You sweep the Oscars. A. Had you written multiple speeches in anticipation of going up over and over again? Or what was the experience like on the night? Were you caught with your pants down?

[James L. Brooks]

The first one was, I think, for writing and it was everything it should be. It was joyous. It was great. Yeah, yeah, I was good, man. I sat down. I had Oscars there.

[Dax Shepard]

Can I argue really quick, too, if of any of those categories that you might have felt worthy of, it'd be the writing? You've been writing forever. It's not gonna queue up any imposter syndrome, but perhaps some of the others could not be as embraced so easily.

[James L. Brooks]

You're absolutely right.

[Dax Shepard]

So what's going on when you go.

[James L. Brooks]

Up the second time you went for directing, the actors got you there. I don't think there's any question about that. That the third one, just my mind was blown. So I was just sort of staggering. And Deborah did this amazing thing because she was great in the film. And everybody else is winning these Oscars. We're all posing for pictures afterwards. And Deborah, we're holding ours. She holds an imaginary Oscar. So she was. She was great. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I happen to know, I've read some of your feedback afterwards, and you framed it as like. It adds a heightened self consciousness. That's really something you have to contend with. So there's that. I want to hear your opinion on that. But then I'm curious just with your childhood, because I have this. Did you also have this enormous sense of the other shoe must drop soon, this is all too good. Did you have that suspicion that it's just all too good?

[James L. Brooks]

I mean, I think the great thing is you get to make your next picture. It's currencies.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[James L. Brooks]

So that was really what I thought. I'd get to make another movie.

[Dax Shepard]

And it goes without saying, you loved making Terms of Endearment.

[James L. Brooks]

I'm imagining love is not the word I do, but I guess it's true.

[Dax Shepard]

You wanted to do it again. Minimally.

[James L. Brooks]

I'd like to do it again.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. Whatever. We can infer from that. Then the next movie's broadcast news again. What a fucking sensational movie. And your taste is so good. Holly Hunter for me is like, my.

[James L. Brooks]

God, it was such an accident that I got her. I got her at the last minute. I still pay homage to the casting director. She had put up with me for six months that I couldn't find anybody. And we'd auditioned people and I had somebody that I didn't feel great about, but that was what I was going to have to go with. And she says, there's this girl who's leaving town today, but you can see her. And it was Holly Hunter. And it was just.

[Dax Shepard]

God dropped her in your lap.

[James L. Brooks]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, and she's just going toe to toe with William Hur, and it is riveting.

[James L. Brooks]

Wow. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Wow. This is your first time working with Albert Brooks?

[James L. Brooks]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

And this then starts the confusion. Obviously, you've experienced this. Right.

[James L. Brooks]

Of people.

[Dax Shepard]

They insist you must be related to this man. Your last name is Brooks. And his last name is Brooks. It does it start then?

[James L. Brooks]

He's an Einstein. Brooks.

[Dax Shepard]

What does that mean, an Einstein?

[James L. Brooks]

His father's real name was Einstein.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh.

[James L. Brooks]

And they called him Albert, and he did not want to be Albert Einstein.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, wow.

[Dax Shepard]

And your dad changed the name to Brooks to appear to be Irish.

[James L. Brooks]

He changed from Bernstein. He was the last man trying to pass the change of his being Jewish.

[Dax Shepard]

And he chose Irish. Interesting.

[James L. Brooks]

Yes. Yes. I was 12 years old. I thought I was Irish.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, no kidding.

[James L. Brooks]

Younger than that. I was nine. And then suddenly I saw my paternal grandfather's name was Bernstein. You thought. And I slowly managed to put two and two together.

[Dax Shepard]

Was he celebrating St. Patrick's Day with extra flourish?

[James L. Brooks]

I think most nights a week he was celebrating Saint. Good for him.

[Dax Shepard]

So then you're nominated for that film again for best picture and screenplay, which is incredible. And now I want this to be how it is. It makes a good story. Maybe it's not true, but you had left television for all intents and purposes, and you get kind of drugged back into television that year of broadcast news, presumably to help a friend, Tracey Ullman, not dragged back. Okay.

[James L. Brooks]

Somebody gave me a tape of who she was, and I'd never seen anybody. An absolutely original talent. I dove back in. I love television. Nobody has to talk me into it.

[Dax Shepard]

That's fair.

[James L. Brooks]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I guess what I want and what I like from this is you're already busy doing this thing, but you saw this way that you could help with someone that was really talented.

[James L. Brooks]

Not help.

[Dax Shepard]

No, no. Okay. Okay.

[James L. Brooks]

Work with, exploit.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Okay. Great. Then it's not a great story. You were rewarded regardless, because if people who don't remember this whole trajectory. I do. I loved the Tracy Allman show. I was 12 years old when this show came out on a network that.

[James L. Brooks]

Nobody watched at the time, which was what?

[Dax Shepard]

Fox. All you had was Married With Children. And this must have followed it because I saw it at some point. Maybe it launched off of that. At any rate, I saw it, and I was already a huge fan of Staring at Live. And I'm like, oh, this is wonderful. This is kind of like you're just with one character evolving. And then they would show these little kind of interstitial Cartoons. And there was this character Bart simpson. And then this becomes the Simpson.

[James L. Brooks]

Insane, crudely drawn Matt groening. Having drawn him while waiting to see me, he had a comic strip, Life in hell. In life in hell, he did the 12 Ways to Die in Hollywood. And it was road rage and being shot and failure and then success.

[Monica Padman]

That's right.

[James L. Brooks]

I love that. Yeah. So that was so. It was amazing. That's how we met. Off that.

[Monica Padman]

Do you have the original Bart?

[James L. Brooks]

I think I do.

[Dax Shepard]

It's worth some money when this becomes its own show, the simpsons. I guess two years after Tracey allman launches. You have some interesting provision in your contract with fox where you kind of. I don't know what the verbiage is. Mileage. Well, now it has mileage, but then you had some kind of creative control. That was unique. Yeah, it opened up a lot of episodes that otherwise wouldn't have happened.

[James L. Brooks]

That's true. And it was a young network, and so I don't think he would have gotten it out of one that was established.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so we are at the 36 year marker. This is the 36th year of the Simpsons. It's won two Peabody's 37 Emmys.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Gosh.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm gonna ask you a very tacky question you're gonna hate, but I have to know.

[James L. Brooks]

Well, maybe you don't have to.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, you don't have to answer. But I have to answer.

[James L. Brooks]

I mean, you're a free man.

[Dax Shepard]

No, I want to know because I'm such a nosy pig. Is there a running tally of what this thing has generated over the last 36 years? Like, can you look and see the exact amount of money this thing has generated?

[James L. Brooks]

No. Thank heavens.

[Dax Shepard]

It has to be the most successful, though, Hollywood property of all time.

[James L. Brooks]

It's the longest running scripted show in history. Said he.

[Dax Shepard]

I mean, the movie alone made $500 million.

[Audience Member/Interjection]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I mean, we're in the many, many, many, many billions. I just think it doesn't matter.

[James L. Brooks]

Five and a quarter.

[Dax Shepard]

That doesn't mean a thing. You are short 25 million. I'm gonna ask chat GPT total in billions. I love that. I. I think it's so rad when art can create. What an automaker. I just think that's fucking cool.

[James L. Brooks]

The great thing is the energy on the show. Matt groening and I are always around, but there's always a show running it that's defining it. And now it's Matt Selman. The amazing thing is the energy. The freshness, particularly right now, is just filled with energy and Change.

[Dax Shepard]

That's the impossible accomplishment. And you share it probably only with Saturday Live, which is to keep it fresh and on fire for that long. What a rare thing.

[James L. Brooks]

It's great because nobody second guesses you at this point. It's just a great atmosphere. And that thing about community again, that's really excellent.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[James L. Brooks]

That is all about the writers. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. You have your first setback with I'll do anything. I mean, you're in such a meteoric rise between TV and film. Yeah.

[James L. Brooks]

Here it is.

[Dax Shepard]

How did you take that?

[James L. Brooks]

Ow.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Ow.

[Dax Shepard]

Right? It's hard.

[James L. Brooks]

Oh, for about a year. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

What? It just didn't make what it needed to make.

[James L. Brooks]

I did it as a musical. Think anybody had to be a real singer. And actually at the core, there are things that I still am so glad got expressed because there's a father daughter relationship.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, that's adorable.

[James L. Brooks]

And works that really mattered to me. And there was six year old girl who just gave an extraordinary performance. Like crazy unallowed to happen, like against the laws of physics, you know.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah.

[James L. Brooks]

It was a big failure. And it was worse than that because we previewed and we had a preview where there were walkouts.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, what an experience that is, isn't it?

[James L. Brooks]

I went from that. I apologized to everybod, everybody I'd worked with to lead them into that. The Los Angeles Times found out about the preview and started to do a series of things. So it just became. You're spending a few months of your life blushing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, it's a unique experience.

[James L. Brooks]

I got a weird feeling it's my legs now. Can we talk about my new move?

[Dax Shepard]

I've gone through it and there's this sense when you're walking around that every human you see knows you've failed. I have had that at least.

[Monica Padman]

Which is probably not true.

[Dax Shepard]

It's not true at all. But you feel like.

[James L. Brooks]

No, it's a little true. No.

[Dax Shepard]

One thing I just want to thank you for because it goes in my top three comedies of all time, which is in 1996. Somehow you become involved with Bottle Rocket with Wes and Owen.

[James L. Brooks]

So great that you bring that up.

[Dax Shepard]

That's the fucking how on earth. You must have seen their short they made.

[James L. Brooks]

I saw the. That got honorable mention, you know, someplace. And I went to see them because I loved it. I went to see them in Texas, flew to Dallas, they had a script and the three guys turned out to be the cast and the writer and the director were all living on the same floor, you know, But I mean the floor of one apartment with just refuse every place. You couldn't walk a straight line in one step without, you know. It was Owen. I'm trying to remember who the third person was. Maybe Luke, I think that's right. And I said, have you ever read it out loud? They hadn't.

[Monica Padman]

Oh wow.

[James L. Brooks]

Three and a half hour later. I mean it was a long stand script in the world. And I said it's all going to be about length. And I remember Wes looking at me and he weighed like 80 pounds. He lived in his car. Flash forward, I'm in Paris and this gorgeous guy who owns the world in a white suit. This is a few years ago.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah. No, his life is an art installation now.

[James L. Brooks]

Oh my God. He has a unique, unique career. He was living in his car and like say three and a half hours. He said, are you going to make the movie? And I said, I don't know, man.

[Dax Shepard]

Not at three and a half hours.

[James L. Brooks]

I said, why don't you come? And then I think there was six months of work that went in.

[Monica Padman]

Wow.

[James L. Brooks]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And then they went away and made it.

[James L. Brooks]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Owen is on record as saying I think he felt bad for us when he came to the apartment then the reading was the worst reading ever. Sleeping back on the floor for us.

[Monica Padman]

That's so cool that you got to be a part of the beginning of all of them. Cuz they all turned out to be so it's great.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, you've gotten to do that a bunch of times. That must be one of the more rewarding aspects of all this. Like the people you cast on Taxi, the meeting, Owen and Wes, all that stuff.

[James L. Brooks]

That's great.

[Dax Shepard]

Cuz you can only be so happy with your own accomplishments. But when you help other people accomplish stuff, it really feels good now.

[James L. Brooks]

No, it's not about that. It's when the work is good, you feel good and then things happen. But I think the cart and horse is very clear to me.

[Monica Padman]

I think you're too humble to say you've helped people.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, that might be the case.

[James L. Brooks]

No, it's not. But it's not true.

[Dax Shepard]

Listen, he launched a bunch of careers and Simpsons is worth $150 billion.

[James L. Brooks]

I was an active part of everybody came through for everybody.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I know what you're saying is correct.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, the last one I want to talk about. And then Elle McKay. As good as it gets, of course. Obviously just a brilliant fucking movie. Seven Academy Award nominations, incredible performances. But I have specific questions. One is Trudeau the dog. The Brussels Griffon were You a fan of Brussels, or was this a happy accident?

[James L. Brooks]

I've never heard a breed pronounced better than you just did. That was the griffon I happen to.

[Dax Shepard]

Fall in love with an ex girlfriend's Russell.

[James L. Brooks]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

How did Trudeau come to be a character?

[James L. Brooks]

Somebody had written a script that was not a comedy, but it had the characters, a lot of the story. And then I started working on it, and I feel that it was two people who were partners in screenwriting, but they work a year apart, and separately, the way it works. And it never could have happened without him. And then it was right to change form into a comedy. And then so the dog wasn't his.

[Dax Shepard]

And then you gotta cast the dog. And it's gonna be an important part.

[James L. Brooks]

Figuring out how to piss on cue, which we ended up. The prop guy took care of that. The way it has to be is that you don't treat the dog as an afterthought. The dog and his trainer, that you give them what you give to every actor, that was very important to give them the time, to give them the stage, to give them the respect.

[Dax Shepard]

What would you say was the thing that was working on that movie that you isolated and figured out and kind of doubled down on? You know how you have these moments where you're like, oh, this is the thing that's really working.

[James L. Brooks]

The hardest part to cast was Greg Kinnear in that. That took months and months. Two auditions that some people resent and some people really like. Because instead of an audition, I get involved. I make it a work session. We go over it again. And some actors. And some actors really appreciate it. It's the right way to work. Or else it's sort of bullshit. Let's try working together, you know?

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. Because the odds that they're gonna come in and do it exactly as you want it, and then they're gonna replicate that exact thing on the day are very slim.

[James L. Brooks]

No, but you're just seeing the mesh. And, I mean, you lose yourself. So you're not sitting there saying, show me.

[Dax Shepard]

You're trying to figure it out with them.

[James L. Brooks]

Yes. He was the toughest. A colleague told me about him, and I went to see him. Cause that was impossible. I've never read so many actors for a part. Really? Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

What were the essential ingredients?

[James L. Brooks]

You don't know. That's why you can't.

[Dax Shepard]

You know, you don vulnerability, but you don't want pathetic. It's a thin.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, it's just an aura.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, what a movie. Okay. How does El McK come about? And the fact that Emma McKee is the star is very confusing. And is that accidental or intentional? Did you write it with her?

[James L. Brooks]

In mine, I wrote it. I wrote Emma McKay. And then when it was her, I just didn't want to change Emma McKay's name.

[Dax Shepard]

And you fell so in love. Oh, that's great.

[James L. Brooks]

I just live with it for so long. Like. Like that.

[Dax Shepard]

What was it called before she was Emma McKay? Oh, okay.

[James L. Brooks]

It was always called that. And then Emma Mackie comes along after I spent again, it was one of those stories like the Greg Anders story. Went overseas, went to London. The hope that when you try and write this female character and catch something, and it's like, if you build it, will she come? You know? And this was a real process. Miraculously, she showed up. And this is her first American starring role. She had one word in Barbie, but made an impact.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wow, she's in sex education.

[James L. Brooks]

Yes. And the Katharine Hepburn, Audrey Hepburn movies of the 50s I adored. And this was me just tribute, whatever it is. But that spirit, that screwball comedy. And then how do you do screwball comedy and clock the laughs and put meat on the bone so that you're really dealing with some of the crap that we go through and that can do us in if we're not careful.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[James L. Brooks]

And try and combine those two things, which is what the picture is. Cause you're not telling the truth unless you show that part of life is a little tough. And I love screwball comedy.

[Dax Shepard]

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

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[Dax Shepard]

So yeah, the movie starts out and we meet Ella and we find out that at 16, her father, Woody Harrelson. Your access to Cass is a little enviable. The cast is movie.

[James L. Brooks]

Woody's an old friend too. We go back to before he did anything.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh you do? He's being fired because he has slept with several co workers and is being.

[James L. Brooks]

Confronted by a 16 year old daughter.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. The rest of the family, or the mother in particular, seems to be going along with this quietly. And she's not having that. She's like, let's be honest about why you've been let go.

[James L. Brooks]

The first line is wait, cuz everybody's packing up, moving on, pretending it doesn't happen.

[Dax Shepard]

We're going to acknowledge the reality of this. So not only has the father had many, many extramarital affairs and the family's in flux because of it.

[James L. Brooks]

And as he points out, all three women sent letters of support.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, yes, he said that's one valid perspect. So he has to now take a job in another state. And she's in her junior year of high school and so she decides to stay with her aunt who is Jamie Lee Curtis.

[James L. Brooks]

Yes. And it's a little messier than that because her mother, who still loves him despite all, knows that her daughter and him will never get along and it will always be that kind of chaos. And still loves the guy. So sort of urges so that Emma's character is abandoned and made to feel abandoning almost. It's weird.

[Dax Shepard]

And you feel very much the mom's shame at sticking with the dad. She knows the daughter is in great judgment.

[James L. Brooks]

Correct. And he'll do it again. Yeah, I get it.

[Dax Shepard]

Which is heartbreaking because she's already taken on the chin from the husband. And now the daughter's disappointed in her.

[James L. Brooks]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And then while they're gone, the mom dies unexpectedly. So I'm just gonna throw out there. From what we've learned about you, there's a lot of stuff here that sounds vaguely familiar to your childhood. We've got questionable father in the mix and we've got a mom who dies prematurely. Are you aware of that when you're writing it?

[James L. Brooks]

I called him Eddie. My father's name.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[James L. Brooks]

So, yeah, I'm blushing now. So many Hollywood pictures end with forgiveness being the answer. And if forgiveness is always the answer, forgiveness is meaningless. Something has to be unforgivable. There's got to be an unforgivable forgiveness to mean anything.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, that's a good point.

[James L. Brooks]

And it's really the question.

[Dax Shepard]

It needs to be relative to something.

[James L. Brooks]

Yeah. And. And I'm sort of reactionary to every movie ending with forgive you. And that's the answer in life. Especially since I don't know that I've forgiven my father. Did unforgivable things.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[James L. Brooks]

Unforgivable has to exist.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah. Right, right, right.

[James L. Brooks]

For there to be forgivable.

[Dax Shepard]

It's also interesting. We could get very philosophical here. It's like there is some risk of healing all things from the childhood because they are the fodder for creativity. Like if you had had some really dreamy, peaceful resolution with your father in the past. This movie doesn't exist.

[James L. Brooks]

Absolutely. And I had aunts that were very giving to me. And there's an aunt in this picture played by Jamie Lee. And Jamie Lee, her humanity to just be around. And I think she kicks it out of the park.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. In some weird way, she's the emotional hub of the movie. She's the most dependable source for Ella to check in, get a reality check.

[James L. Brooks]

Two women who've been through everything together, who love the ass off each other.

[Dax Shepard]

And as Ella then is a kind of a wunderkin herself, she finds herself as the deputy deputy governor or whatever that role's called. Lieutenant governor under again. Ding, ding, ding. Albert Brooks. No relation to you because you're Irish and he's Jewish. Easy mistake. He's the governor. He steps down with 18 months left of his term to go join the cabinet in the White House. So now she finds herself as a 29 year old governor.

[James L. Brooks]

34. Her real age was that.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay. Sorry. Sorry. But still she's checking in with her aunt regularly. Whether there's a scandal brewing about her.

[James L. Brooks]

Her aunt who raised her.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, she's kind of her reality check.

[James L. Brooks]

I think it was true in my family that the significant love in a woman's life can be another woman family member. That's the key to our journey. But the choice is also armor. That's sort of the great thing. It's the great thing about the gender.

[Dax Shepard]

So the dad resurfaces and he's just a loving sex addict. That's very obvious. And he now has a new girlfriend. The new girlfriend's urging him to make amends. But it's not really an amends.

[James L. Brooks]

Until you get things right with your kids. I'm not gonna be your woman.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. I guess my question is, since there's so much similarity, why do a female protagonist and not a male protagonist, like, it's almost your story, but you chose to tell it through the lens of a female protagonist.

[James L. Brooks]

Wow. That never occurred to me. I did it wrong?

[Dax Shepard]

No, I just.

[Monica Padman]

No, not wrong.

[Dax Shepard]

I think there's something quite interesting there that you're kind of telling your story, but you would rather have a woman portray your role in some sense.

[James L. Brooks]

I have never thought about it that way. I plan to have this surgically removed from my head after I leave.

[Monica Padman]

Maybe it was a protective thing, like if it's exactly you, that's a little harder to write and to sit with. So maybe there's like a little bit of a distance when you're writing for female character.

[James L. Brooks]

Yeah, that. God bless you.

[Dax Shepard]

I'll make another argument which. Which is your story in 1958, when you turn 18, having had really no dad present and a mother that was working non stop, you were starting with a real deficit that I don't think we could extend to any man in 2025 as a male lead. I don't know that it would represent really what you were starting out with. How much the odds were stacked against you in your own personal story in 1968 that would bring untrue to today.

[James L. Brooks]

And I think there were parts that were consciously based on times of my life. And I think there must be stuff that was unconsciously based on that too.

[Dax Shepard]

Having done the Mary Tyler Moore show and having explored this topic now for 55 years, how is Ella different and similar?

[James L. Brooks]

The topics change. Women change. That's always the question. It's always, what makes a contemporary female? Or and this is a no nonsense. She's a public servant we pray for.

[Dax Shepard]

She's just really genuine, you know, principled and has integrity.

[James L. Brooks]

She gets accidentally loaded for the first time in her life in the movie. And it's weed not like you've seen weed before. Weed where? You love weed. Weed where. Oh, this is the real me. I gotta remember what I'm saying now. Oh, God. This is it. This is it. And what comes out of her is, I can make people's lives better. That's her dirty secret. You know that she doesn't even get out of her mouth until she does that monologue. Great. I think she kills them all.

[Dax Shepard]

And then there's obviously the reoccurring issue that women still deal with, which is like she kind of inadvertently does end up marrying kind of a version of her dad.

[James L. Brooks]

That's what everybody says. Unintended. But everybody says that. Yeah. And maybe common consent to mankind or something.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. So explain the husband. That she's kind of just woken up.

[James L. Brooks]

Hardest thing in the script. Because through some versions. What is she doing with them?

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[James L. Brooks]

He's based on the this. That it was. One of the things that a woman can consider about a guy is what impact he'll have on her life. Sort of in a traditional sense. He's a successful guy. It's attractive. This man is going to take me places. I never heard of. This is the reverse.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[James L. Brooks]

She's that.

[Dax Shepard]

He noticed it in high school.

[James L. Brooks]

And I don't know if it's bad to fall in love with that. But you're going places and you don't even know it. You're going on a journey and I'd be stuck. I love you.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Persistence, persistence, persistence.

[Monica Padman]

Interesting.

[Dax Shepard]

So, yeah. He is enamored with the obviousness that she is going to be going places. He's ambitious. But she's not in the wrong way. He likes the accoutments and stuff like that. He wants to be on TV with her. He wants the title.

[Monica Padman]

Like, he's using her.

[Dax Shepard]

Even if he doesn't know he is.

[James L. Brooks]

What's been sort of a thing traditionally my way. Oh, this guy takes me to a whole new place. Prince Charming takes me to a new life.

[Monica Padman]

Yes. If it's reversed. We don't say she's using him. I guess is the thing.

[Dax Shepard]

The trope you've seen a million times in movies is like the wife of a man and she's quite ambitious and helps him achieve his goals. But it's really unique and interesting and a bit icky when you see the reverse of it.

[Monica Padman]

Like, why should it be?

[Dax Shepard]

Why should it be? But it's. I don't like it.

[Monica Padman]

That is a very contemporary woman right now. There's a lot of that going on right now. Now that's hard.

[James L. Brooks]

They write their marriage vows and his is, except for you and me, baby, everything's a joke. And that's an outlook, you know? Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, it's delightful. I love Kumail to Kamal Nanjiani is just one of my all time favorites.

[James L. Brooks]

Yeah. The big six.

[Dax Shepard]

It's like the good guys cast. It's like everyone that's in it is sincerely a good guy.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, I have one more question.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

When's the first time you cried? You told us the second time.

[James L. Brooks]

My mother's death.

[Monica Padman]

I guess we could have assumed that.

[Dax Shepard]

I made an ass of you and than me and assume that.

[James L. Brooks]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

He said second. I was like, okay, I'm guessing 22 was the first time.

[Monica Padman]

And how much time in between was those two?

[Dax Shepard]

A long time, I can tell you.

[James L. Brooks]

Long time.

[Dax Shepard]

I have it 83, 22, 66 to 83. So that's.

[Monica Padman]

That's a long time.

[Dax Shepard]

It's a big gap.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I think I had about a similar gap.

[James L. Brooks]

I cheer up easily.

[Dax Shepard]

Now you have a bunch of girls. Girls, right.

[James L. Brooks]

I have two daughters and two sons.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you cry as much for the sons or the girls? I have two girls. I just know I cry non stop and I'm assuming it's halfway because they're girls.

[James L. Brooks]

My last cry was with my granddaughter on the phone.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James L. Brooks]

Because something wonderful had happened to her and she didn't see it coming. So it was a happy cry. Yeah.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

My kids are embarrassed for me, I think. I mean, I'm just letting it rip all the time.

[James L. Brooks]

Wow. Yeah. Men don't bring Kleenex with them.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. No, I never see it coming, but boy, it's getting more and more regular. It's nice though, isn't it?

[James L. Brooks]

It feels like you're genuine.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, it feels nice.

[James L. Brooks]

By the way, I think it was one of your podcasts where you were talking about men's groups and I can't tell you what it brought back to me and how much I miss it. When I was part of a group. In your case it was aa, but just palpably missed it so much. Yeah. Hearing you talk about it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I was there last night with my idol who just got 23 years. He also had a 76 birthday birthday and I was sitting with him and I was like, oh, my God, man, I have had 23 years of getting to see someone who has exactly what I want and is exactly who I want to be, and I've got to just ape them. And what an insane gift. How the hell do you find that without something like that, it resonated. Thank you. Well, man, this is a real honor, Jim, honestly, I mean, you guys are great.

[James L. Brooks]

Thank you. I appreciate it.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, just the work. So special in lasting. You did a bang him up job. And you'll call me and tell me what Simpsons is worth right between us. And I won't tell anyone. All right. Thank you so much.

[James L. Brooks]

Pleasure.

[Dax Shepard]

Hi there. This is Hermion. Permium. If you like that, you're gonna love the fact check, Ms. Monica.

[Monica Padman]

Anyway, I want his wine, his wine in his cake. His wine and his cake that he doesn't eat.

[Dax Shepard]

Him.

[Monica Padman]

I would eat all his stuff and drink.

[Dax Shepard]

I love that you want to fuck him. That's so exciting. That's what you were saying?

[Monica Padman]

I'm curious.

[Dax Shepard]

Let's bring everyone up to speed. We're talking about Tom Cruise.

[Monica Padman]

You did say he's not going to come on if we do this.

[Dax Shepard]

If he knows you want to him, he'll be here in two seconds. What are you talking about? You don't understand one thing about how the world works. It's crazy. The eight years of me trying to explain to you how the world works and you just won't pick it up.

[Monica Padman]

I'm just. I have some sensitivity.

[Dax Shepard]

You wanted this one up. Fuck him.

[Monica Padman]

I want to know what it. What he's like.

[Dax Shepard]

Feels like to fuck him. Get into it. Let's hear what. Okay.

[Monica Padman]

I'm like, what are you like in an intimate setting because you're so. He's so intense and everything has to be so regimented. Yeah. There's probably no room for improv. Unless that's the space that he improvised. So that's my curiosity.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. That's what I'm saying is like, he is a perfectionist at all things. He just delivers. And there's no reason to think he wouldn't just blow your mind in the sack. Also, if you watch those early Tom Cruz movies, he is so playful with his eyes. He has total command of his charm with his eyes.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, he does.

[Dax Shepard]

If he locked into your eyes, I think he could give you a real experience.

[Monica Padman]

I'm just, you know.

[Dax Shepard]

Your curiosity's peaked.

[Monica Padman]

My curiosity's peaked, but it's just interesting.

[Dax Shepard]

Because you don't randomly. That's not what you offer randomly. Like, we had a cute young baseball player you thought was hot.

[Monica Padman]

And oh, on the screen we had him on.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We haven't had him as a guest.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

When I threw out the notion. You're like, he's Too young. I'm like, yeah, but just for a night. Like a roll around, fun picture over. And you were like, no. And then yesterday you shocked me because you're coming out of the studio and you're talking to a guest and you basically said, like, I would fuck Tom Cruise Cruz. And I was like, this is interesting.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

You agree that it's inconsistent.

[Monica Padman]

I agree, but it's not to me. It makes total sense.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. And that's. And I'm hoping you can convey that to me.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. The hot baseball player.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I'm intimidated by. Now, see, this is weird.

[Dax Shepard]

This is going to seem disrespectful.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Or cocky or something. And I don't mean that to be the case.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

But that hot, young, young baseball player.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I think I would feel like, I.

[Dax Shepard]

Hope I'm hot enough.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. I hope I'm hot enough.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

And if Tom and I are getting. Yeah, we're rolling around.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Roll around. You think he's going to be pretty grateful for what's going on?

[Monica Padman]

No. Because I know he has. He has access to everyone and has dated insanely hot people. Yeah, but he's older. Reason part of it sees older.

[Dax Shepard]

Maybe, you know, us older people be grateful for anything. Right. Is that part of what's going on?

[Monica Padman]

I hate to say it might have to do with age, but I think it does.

[Dax Shepard]

Fair. Yeah. And guess what? You're kind of right. I heard this said to me a long, long time ago, and it didn't make sense because I was younger at the time, but I did a movie, a student movie, 24 years ago in Mentor, Ohio, and one of the cast members was a much older, older dude who had been a lawyer and quit being a lawyer to do stand up and now was in this movie. I loved him. He was so interesting and funny.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

But he was, again, he was older. He was at least 10 years older than me. And I remember him saying, like, there's no unattractive girls in their 20s. Like, I knew when I was in my 20s who was hot and who's not.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

And they're all just very attractive to me now.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And so I heard that.

[Monica Padman]

That.

[Dax Shepard]

And I was like, well, I don't buy that. Like, you can still clearly see. And then now that I'm older, I'm like, yeah, everyone just is attractive. Like youthfulness is attractive.

[Monica Padman]

Youthfulness. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And you don't. You're not like picking apart these.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

When everyone was youthful in your. Your pool, I know you got a little spoiled and you'd find pick about eyebrows or this or that. And that's not what you think at 50.

[Monica Padman]

Right. And I am not in my 20s. But I still feel confident in my body that it look, it looks youthful.

[Dax Shepard]

He would be, he would be very happy.

[Monica Padman]

I think he would be happy to see it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I'm sure he would. Now what if you laid on your back.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Legs spread.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

And he dropped down like Mission impossible and entered you. Wouldn't that be so exciting? Oh my God. And then he went way up and he's like 12ft in the air.

[Monica Padman]

So he's on like a harness.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. But he's got total control of it. So when he drops, he can land right in you. You're like, whoa. And then you want more because he's gone for a while. You're like, tom, you're up there way too long.

[Monica Padman]

Oh my God. This is the kind of fear like I. That's embarrass. That's so embarrassing.

[Dax Shepard]

He puts pads, like stunt pads all around the room. Before you guys get started, Monica, you play you for. You cannot leave this area. You'll get hurt.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm going to be doing all the stuff with the pyrotechnics and the swords lay there. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. Okay. I'm having a realization.

[Dax Shepard]

What?

[Monica Padman]

So I. I am attracted. And I have always been attracted to older men.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Older than me. Like at, at whatever stage. I'm at a fair amount older than me.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

And now I'm wondering if it is because that's a, that's a self protection.

[Dax Shepard]

I would have never suggested it. But I, I think that in the same way I have my suspicions and no one likes this. This is too taboo to say.

[Monica Padman]

What?

[Dax Shepard]

I have my suspicions about guys who date only one specific thing. Like they only only date Asian girls or they date really young girls.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. This just came up.

[Dax Shepard]

I think they have some sexual insecurities that they think either a young person won't know the difference of or they're playing on some dumb stereotype.

[Monica Padman]

People do have types.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And is it okay? And why, why do they have types? But you often say it's okay to have types.

[Dax Shepard]

I do think it's okay to have types if it's not covering up an insecurity of yours.

[Monica Padman]

But how do we.

[Dax Shepard]

But I guess who cares?

[Monica Padman]

How do you know? Like what's the difference? Everything's related to our fears and insecurities and our strengths.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I think if you are what I would say, kind of using someone, someone to deal with Your insecurities. I just think that's not fair. I think you should deal with your insecurities.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And that someone shouldn't be the unwitting participant in this weird thing. That something deeper is going on that we're not acknowledging.

[Monica Padman]

Right. But isn't that everyone?

[Dax Shepard]

I don't think so. I mean, I. I see a difference between using someone.

[Monica Padman]

It's not using on purpose, though. It's subconscious. So it's. To me, me, it's the same.

[Dax Shepard]

What if they're conscious, though?

[Monica Padman]

Well, that's bad. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Like, I only want to be with a virgin because I'm so terrible in bed. Like that. I don't like that.

[Monica Padman]

That's bad.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, that's gross. That's not good.

[Monica Padman]

No, I agree. But if it's just a subconscious attraction.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

It's not like I'm picking this because of this. It's like, oh, I'm attracted to that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And then you dig deeper, like, oh, I'm attracted that because of this. But that's who you're attracted. Attracted to.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

What, is that bad?

[Dax Shepard]

Well, that's interesting. That then bleeds into a more complex scenario, which is like, what if these dudes who really desire subservient women, like, you can make the argument. Okay, well, there are subservient women, and that's their. That's what they've chosen as their role. And there's a guy who wants that, and they're together and they're happy.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, you've made that. You've said that's okay.

[Dax Shepard]

I mean, I just. For me personally.

[Monica Padman]

It's terrible for you personally, but you're wearing. We're talking about general. Like, is it okay? And I think. I kind of think yes. Like, if everyone is fine with it, with the arrangement.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, Yeah. I just think it's a shitty personality type. Someone who's like, I don't want to compromise or be questioned. I want to do whatever I want to do. And I need a partner that'll just shut the up and go along with it. I just hate that personality. Yeah, right.

[Monica Padman]

Of course. I mean, yeah. Yeah, we do. So this just came up on Nobody's Listening. Right. Elizabeth and Andy show. This is funny that they talked about this, because I guess Andy was kind of saying, like, what if. Because I guess they're watching British Bake off and someone maybe has alopecia on that show.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

And then Andy was like, what if you were dating someone who had alopecia and then you find. Found out their last three girlfriends had alopecia. Is that okay? Like, is it okay to be attracted to that?

[Dax Shepard]

I think that's great.

[Monica Padman]

I think. I think it's fine.

[Dax Shepard]

That's great.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. But to me, in theory, it's like, that's fine. That's what you find physically attractive. When I put myself in the position of like, okay, so if I find out that my boyfriend. Tom.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

No, I'm kidding. If I find out that my boyfriend's last three girlfriends. In fact, this kind of happened to me on one. On a date.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Last three girlfriends were Indian.

[James L. Brooks]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I don't like that. And so I understand, in theory, like, oh, that is an aesthetic you find attractive.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. If anything, you should feel.

[Monica Padman]

Don't tell me how I should feel.

[Dax Shepard]

This is how you should feel. And you're wrong. If you don't feel this way, it should quiet any voice in your head that you have. Is he really attracted to me? Like, it would confirm. No. I'm exactly what he's attracted. Attracted to?

[Monica Padman]

No, but it's like, you're attracted to a thing that I happen to be. You're not attracted to me. That is not good.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, see? Yes. And this is great because this is how these always go, which is you reduce whatever. The one element that they're attracted to you about is being the total reason. So it's like your issue with a fan wanting. Initially being interested in you because they're a fan, great. But your personality has to then take over. And yes, you may. This gentleman may love your color of brown skin and find it to be the most aesthetically pleasing. And so that opened the door. But you have to. He has to like you for you. You can't like someone for the color of their skin. That's only going to last for a few weeks.

[Monica Padman]

Well, for some people, that's not true. They just like a physical aesthetic, and then they're like, it's their kink.

[Dax Shepard]

But I don't. I. I have never been able to be with somebody simply because how they look physically.

[Monica Padman]

I know you, but we're not talking about you specifically. We're talking about people who have kinks and are like, you know, I have a Indian woman kink, and so I'm on the prowl for one. You are one.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. And I'm attracted to a lot of Indian women, but then I need to talk to them and find out, do we like the same movies? And have. We have sense of humor, care.

[Monica Padman]

And then after a while, then it's like, I'm sick of her. So I'M on to the next Indian woman. Like that's maybe the fear.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I think that's the fear. But, and I don't, I just don't think I'm terribly unique. Everyone I know who's with a partner, they like the person, their personality. They did for a while.

[Monica Padman]

I guess I'm saying there are definitely people who are with people. Not for their personalities.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure. But what I'm saying is there are no, there's no pair of boobs that are so perfect that those pair of boobs are going to get you through a relationship. Relationship. You might come for the boobs, but they're gonna wear out. People can't stay with someone because they like someone's boobs. There has to be a lot more going on than just I like her boobs.

[Monica Padman]

I mean, I hope that's true, but I, I don't know if I believe.

[Dax Shepard]

That for certain men, excluding narcissists who like, you're literally just a bit of branding for their.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

Identity.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure. I think everyone in their life's a pawn. That doesn't really, they just validate them and in whatever category in that moment they need them to.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

But excluding those people talking about people in relationships that want to call you and talk to you on the phone.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And go out to dinner with you and eat and go to movies.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

They have to like you.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. I hope.

[Dax Shepard]

And I think sometimes you reduce why someone likes you to like a singular thing and then evaluate that one single thing. When I think it's like hundreds of data input that make us like each other. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

That's, I, I, I hear that's, that's right.

[Dax Shepard]

And it'd be okay if someone came for one reason and stayed for another.

[Monica Padman]

I, I know, I know.

[Dax Shepard]

I like a, Plenty of girls have been with me, I'm sure because like they like tall guys.

[Monica Padman]

They only like tall guys.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I don't know if that's true.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, they do. I mean people like short guys too, but people also. Everyone likes tall guys.

[Dax Shepard]

And maybe everyone likes tall guys, but for some people they have to be with a tall guy. I've met girls that are like, I've never had a boyfriend under six two. Like that's what they, they love. They have to have that.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And so that's fine. You came, I got your attention. Cuz I was 62, you saw me across the room and like I fit the thing.

[Monica Padman]

I know, I don't know why. To me it's different. Like that's kind of to Me like saying like, okay, I liked pretty. I like pretty people. Like, it's like, that's like, duh, you know, everyone likes tall guys. Everyone likes pretty faces. Like, I. Being Indian is not the same thing as is that. It's, it's, it's a niche. It's very specific. And it's like, I don't know, you could also fetish. I mean, it's not always like. I'm not saying, I'm not saying Indian people in relationships, that person has a fetish. It's just if you see that, it's a pattern.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

That to me.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, it makes you. It would make me curious.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Like, what is it that you like? Because it could be the culture.

[Monica Padman]

Right. And that.

[Dax Shepard]

And you're not that. So I already understand why you'd be like, if your thing is Indian.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Chicks. I'm not that.

[James L. Brooks]

I'm not.

[Monica Padman]

I think I feel very like, don't put me in a box like that.

[Dax Shepard]

And you were trying to not be Indian a little bit.

[Monica Padman]

Right. But now. Yeah. I think it would just get complicated with that person because I'm like, I already have enough complicated feelings around this.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I just. You're not going to get the culture. If you're coming to me for like the Indian experience. You're not going to get it. But I don't know the stereotype. That's what I'm. That's why I'm more. I'm more concerned for guys that only date young Asian. I just don't. I know that one because it has a lot of built in stereotypes. There aren't those built in stereotypes about Indian women. It's not that there's this subservient stereotype. It's not that there's a stereotype that the men have small penises. There's no, none of, none of that weird psychological baggage. Can I see why that would be your fetish as opposed to other groups?

[Monica Padman]

I don't know.

[Dax Shepard]

What do you think of a girl, a white girl who only dates black guys?

[Monica Padman]

I think that's in. I also think that's interesting.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I would want to know why. If I was the man. I would also want to know why.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. There's. Because again, there's. There's three, like likely explanations.

[Monica Padman]

Well, there's. And they're all interested explanations.

[Dax Shepard]

One is just aesthetically. That's your pick.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Gorgeous.

[Dax Shepard]

A, that's your aesthetic. B, you're trying to rebel against your dad.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, see, this gets so. This is so complicated so fast.

[Dax Shepard]

I know. But I think these are likely buckets that one would have to consider.

[Monica Padman]

Ah.

[Dax Shepard]

Or you two are playing up on a stereotype and you're a ice queen. These are like the three things I'm thinking.

[Monica Padman]

No, it could also be like, I imagine that you have a view of the world that I find interesting or different.

[Dax Shepard]

Great. That's the fourth one.

[James L. Brooks]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I mean, to me, that is what would be attractive.

[Dax Shepard]

That you're attracted to the culture.

[Monica Padman]

No, not the culture.

[Dax Shepard]

The, like, different set of glasses.

[Monica Padman]

Different set of glasses that this person is seeing the world in a way.

[Dax Shepard]

That I can't access without them.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. And I think that's a beautiful thing to. To mix that. To understand other people.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

That's the only way to do it.

[Dax Shepard]

I like that one. But, yeah, those are four really likely, I think, assumptions you could make.

[Monica Padman]

I think I am attracted to that. I think I'm attracted to things that are quite different than me.

[Dax Shepard]

Novel and unique. I like it. It's fascinating.

[Monica Padman]

It is fascinating.

[Dax Shepard]

It's juicy.

[Monica Padman]

It is fascinating.

[Dax Shepard]

Stay tuned for more Armchair Experts if you dare. I had a great trip to Texas.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

It was very brief, but I just love it. I love Austin, Texas.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. And you got two steaks.

[Dax Shepard]

I went down to Lambert's and got a pair of ribeyes. Ribeys. Fuck. Monty.

[Monica Padman]

So good.

[James L. Brooks]

They were.

[Dax Shepard]

They really delivered.

[Monica Padman]

They're like candied.

[Dax Shepard]

They're so candied. There's so much stuff in them. I took a picture. I may have sent it to you. It's just oozing with all these different color fats and juices. Yeah. Sweet stuff and. Oh, fuck.

[James L. Brooks]

What?

[Dax Shepard]

What? A ribeye.

[Monica Padman]

Really good.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Did that shot all day.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Long 12 hour day. I've already said it 12 times. I haven't worked 12 hours in a long time and had a blast on set. Met a lot of fun actors, some I had seen and things and never met. That was fun. I forgot about that. Getting to bump into people that you've seen and like and things. And then Saturday, I wasn't in the mood. But it is my commitment. I had to go to Barton Springs before I got on an airplane. So I checked out of. It was a chilly day. Oh, I checked out of my hotel room and I went and I put my swimsuit on in the car and I did some. Some treading of water and I felt like I had worshiped at my church. I felt like, you know, elevated. Like you don't want to go to church, but when you leave, you're like, good I went to church.

[Monica Padman]

I'm glad I went.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, that's exactly how I was.

[Monica Padman]

Like therapy. That's great. I'm glad you had a good time. I did one more thing before we go. I tried multiple times. Get in to a new diner. It's called Max and Helen's. I shouldn't even say it. No, but I am. I said it.

[Dax Shepard]

You said it.

[Monica Padman]

I. Kristen, Anna. And I was like, let's do lunch at the new diner. So good.

[Dax Shepard]

Check this place out. Everyone's saying it's great.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, they did some, like, they did a bunch of friends and family previews. So I had already been seeing all these pictures. People were saying, it's so good. It's amazing. Life change, changing. And I was like, hell, yeah. So on Friday, I told Kristen and Anna, let's do lunch. Let's go to the new diner. Great. What time should we go? 12, 12:30, 12:45.

[Dax Shepard]

Sky's the limit.

[Monica Padman]

Get there. Three hour wait.

[Dax Shepard]

Three hour.

[Monica Padman]

I was. I knew something was wrong as soon as I. I started to walk up because a guy I know someone who works at the Row.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wow.

[Monica Padman]

You shout out Max. Max and Max and Helen. So this is confusing, but I saw him there and I. And we were chatting and he said, oh, my God. He was like, you know, I came. I put my name down at. At 10 and went home and got. And now I'm back. And I was like, oh. And he was like, have you put your name down? And I was like, no. So that was red flag, you know?

[Dax Shepard]

Do you send Kristen up front to see if they would.

[Monica Padman]

She wasn't there yet, but I, of course. Got it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. We got to get her up front.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

See if they can make some moves.

[Monica Padman]

And I. I went up there and I did use her name.

[Dax Shepard]

Gray.

[Monica Padman]

It did not matter.

[Dax Shepard]

Didn't. They didn't even bat an eyelash.

[Monica Padman]

Didn't do a thing.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Good for them.

[Monica Padman]

So basically there were like three hours and just come back in three hours. And I was like, oh, my God, four. Yeah, exactly. So we pivoted.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And then new plan. Right. New plan. On Sunday, Jess has therapy over. Right. In that neighborhood. So new plan. Before therapy, Jess is gonna put our name in and then we'll come three hours later.

[Dax Shepard]

Smart.

[Monica Padman]

He texts me at like 11 and he said, no go. It's seven hours, guys.

[Dax Shepard]

That's not even real.

[Monica Padman]

I know.

[Dax Shepard]

So you can even make that prediction.

[Monica Padman]

It isn't real. They basically just said, like, no more.

[Dax Shepard]

Don't go. Don't come here.

[Monica Padman]

They Did.

[Dax Shepard]

We're closed. They closed. Like, we can't. We gotta close.

[Monica Padman]

No. Yeah. So people get in line, I guess it opens at 8, people get in line at 7, and they kind of.

[Dax Shepard]

Get like, is there two tables inside this place?

[Monica Padman]

No, no, but they go in. Like, whoever's there first obviously goes in. And then they're like, come back in a half hour. Come back in. And I mean, they're gonna have to figure out a better system because they.

[Dax Shepard]

Do the phone text you.

[Monica Padman]

I know. I was like, you do? You text? And they basically said, no. Like, how are you doing this even?

[Dax Shepard]

Like, small towns in America have this system. You think L. A the most popular.

[Monica Padman]

Restaurant because they also are open, I do think until, like, late. Not late, but, like later.

[Dax Shepard]

Accommodating all the people with their Name in at 4:00pm well, no, but you.

[Monica Padman]

Can'T even put your name. That's what I'm confused about.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

So I don't know, but I. I almost unfollow them on Instagram because they were teasing. It was, was. It's such a tease. I saw this turkey with gravy and a pie and I was like, oh, I want that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

So I haven't been in yet and.

[Dax Shepard]

It'S probably eating you out pretty good. It's eating me.

[Monica Padman]

It's getting to me.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. If I saw the first time three, I would never think of the place again.

[Monica Padman]

I know.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm never going to go there.

[Monica Padman]

I know.

[Dax Shepard]

Until they get shitty and people stop going.

[Monica Padman]

I've already been thinking, like, God, when? Like eight months from now, will it die down?

[Dax Shepard]

Like when maybe Tom Cruise will take you there?

[Monica Padman]

I don't even think Tom could cut the line.

[Dax Shepard]

Don't.

[Monica Padman]

No, I'm serious.

[Dax Shepard]

He would come right through the ceiling. He wouldn't fucking put his name in. Ethan Hahn will eat when he wants to eat. He can break into the Louvre and stuff. He can definitely eat at this restaurant whenever he wants.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God, it looks so good.

[Dax Shepard]

What if he wanted to pick you up on a motorcycle? You gotta do it.

[Monica Padman]

Do you think I'm safe doing that?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, he's pretty good.

[Monica Padman]

Really? Okay, then she sure.

[Dax Shepard]

You should get a leather jacket. God, this is great.

[Monica Padman]

No, I'm not gonna.

[Dax Shepard]

This is gonna be a hot night.

[Monica Padman]

I'm not gonna change my personality.

[Dax Shepard]

Why not? Have some fun.

[Monica Padman]

I have fun.

[James L. Brooks]

Okay. I.

[Monica Padman]

He, he, he, like, he'll like me.

[Dax Shepard]

Of course he will.

[Monica Padman]

He doesn't need a meeting, a leather jacket, or to shave my size.

[Dax Shepard]

It's fun to. To try out Fun Personas and go along and have different experiences than you've previously have. So, so maybe you, you have a cool motorcycle jacket. You hop on back. Like you're always on back and you just, you buy into the whole thing.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Doesn't sound fun to you?

[Monica Padman]

Not the motorcycle.

[Dax Shepard]

You're really afraid to lose yourself or something?

[Monica Padman]

Like if you're afraid.

[Dax Shepard]

Like if you act differently, you'll, or you'll forget who you are.

[Monica Padman]

No, I think it looks stupid.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, I think it looks, I think.

[Monica Padman]

If you are doing something that's inauthentic to, to you. I, I f. I think it's very clear.

[Dax Shepard]

But Monica, how do you know something's authentic to you if you haven't tried it? It's unknowable until you try it.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, you sound like a cult leader.

[Dax Shepard]

Let's get a motorcycle jacket.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

For this date with Tom Cruise. To Max and Emma's.

[Monica Padman]

No. Max and Helens.

[Dax Shepard]

Helens.

[Monica Padman]

I'll probably wear the row.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. And not great motorcycle gear, I don't think. A lot of silks and thin. Like, why do Halloween, you know, why even do it? No one's any of the things that they get to pretend they are that day. But it's quite fun.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, but we've already discussed me walking from the car to the house.

[Dax Shepard]

It's like you lose your confidence.

[Monica Padman]

Hate this. Yeah, I, I, okay.

[Dax Shepard]

And yeah, I like it.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Like, oh, I'm this other creature now. People are seeing. Like you get so used to how everyone sees you. The reaction's standard. You know what it's like to be you moving through the world, but all of a sudden you're wearing like 6 inch platform boots and a super tall mohawk and blah, blah. You get to try on for that day. Oh, look how people are looking at me. This is so interesting.

[Monica Padman]

That's what's fun about acting is putting on Personas and personalities and trying and, and doing that. That's fun.

[James L. Brooks]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And it could be in real life too.

[Monica Padman]

I feel like that's.

[Dax Shepard]

You feel like a poser.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I do.

[Dax Shepard]

Understood. And I think that's a common hurdle for people. But what's the difference between someone who's a poser and they're not? Someone just, they were just like, I don't, I'm, I'm not. I'm going to do this. Like, no one's born authentically punk rock or not punk rock or this or that.

[Monica Padman]

You're. But you're drawn. You're drawn to it. You're like, I like this. I Like this aesthetic. I. This makes me feel. But I don't have that. So I would just be doing it, trying to work from the outside in to feel unique. I would be like, feel unique.

[Dax Shepard]

No, no, there's unique as a person. Yes. You're a unique person.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And then there's your day. Day to day life. If you could have a very unique day.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, I see.

[Dax Shepard]

That's what I'm saying. Like, yeah, I.

[Monica Padman]

You just want me to dress the part.

[Dax Shepard]

I love unique. Feeling unique. Having a unique experience.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Like, I don't like wearing a tuxedo.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I hate it. I know that's not for me, but I like that I wear a tuxedo sometimes and go to these award shows and I get to experience the whole thing.

[Monica Padman]

Do you? Because you're always like, you hate it. You hate that you.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm not looking forward to it. I don't like the inconvenience of having to have a suit, having to have it tailored, having to have hair and makeup. Like all that stuff I'm not looking forward to. But being at the event dressed in the appropriate gear that you're supposed to be in, looking the part and pretending you're in a high faluting scenario, I find fun.

[Monica Padman]

Interesting.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, yeah. This isn't my norm. I don't wear tuxes out to fancy black tie things.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So what I'm doing, I'm like, oh, yeah, this is out of the ordinary and unique and I appreciate it for that.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[James L. Brooks]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I feel that that's maybe new for you.

[James L. Brooks]

Oh.

[Monica Padman]

Because I feel like you used to be very attached to your authenticity and.

[Dax Shepard]

I think I'm still very attached to my authenticity. For sure.

[James L. Brooks]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I.

[Dax Shepard]

But I've learned to incorporate like, oh, yeah, that's authentically me. I'm someone who has to do that.

[James L. Brooks]

Exactly.

[Monica Padman]

That's why that's a little different. Different. I don't think me putting on a leather jacket and motorcycle ride, that's not authentically me. I think riding on a motorcycle could be.

[James L. Brooks]

Is.

[Monica Padman]

I've done that.

[James L. Brooks]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

But. But putting on like a character.

[Dax Shepard]

He's probably going to pick you up in a Porsche, I think.

[Monica Padman]

How will we get in the restaurant then?

[Dax Shepard]

He'll figure that.

[James L. Brooks]

That out.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[James L. Brooks]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

All right, all right. Let's do facts.

[Dax Shepard]

Let's do some facts. Is this the vintage item you were talking about?

[Monica Padman]

Yes, I got this vintage.

[James L. Brooks]

How old is it?

[Dax Shepard]

Do you know?

[Monica Padman]

I don't know.

[Dax Shepard]

Circa 80s, 90s.

[Monica Padman]

I feel like it looks 80s.

[Dax Shepard]

This is my new shirt from My tour that I went to. Sabrina Carpenter.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, cute.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, it says man's baby best friend.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, it does, cuz that's the name of the.

[Dax Shepard]

The new album. Didn't hear any of those tracks, cuz it's a short and sweet tour, but.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, she didn't give you any?

[Dax Shepard]

I don't think so. I'm finally relating to Swifties, okay? Because I have found myself. All I'm listening to is short and sweet, okay. All day long, every day. I'm starting to really be a armchair detective for what boy she's talking about. I really get it now.

[Monica Padman]

Are you gonna vocally apologize?

[Dax Shepard]

Nope, I'm not gonna apologize because I'll own that. It's. It's bad of me too. So I'm not gonna say, you know.

[Monica Padman]

But you need to apologize to Taylor because you think it's weird that she. You. You don't love that she does that. But now you're a fan of Sabrina, who does that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. And I'm still not a fan of it, but I like it.

[Monica Padman]

It feels like we're really parsing out deeds.

[James L. Brooks]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

Like, if I start stealing tomorrow.

[Monica Padman]

Please don't.

[Dax Shepard]

If I start stealing tomorrow, I'll say, oh, I'm stealing. That doesn't mean I think stealing's right. It doesn't mean I need to go back and say, like, everyone who I said stole was wrong. No, I'm just. What I'm saying is I'm engaged in that juicy thing.

[Monica Padman]

Got it.

[Dax Shepard]

And it's fun. I get it. It's still not great. It's still not good. But I do have theories.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, really?

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

I mean, some. It's obvious. We all know.

[Dax Shepard]

You know, these ones you already know about Sabrina's.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

You know so much.

[Monica Padman]

Everyone knows.

[Dax Shepard]

No, no, I don't think everyone knows. I had to just go look it up.

[Monica Padman]

I know, but.

[Dax Shepard]

But guess what? My hunch was confirmed by People magazine.

[Monica Padman]

I know. Ew. See?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[James L. Brooks]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Bad.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, bad.

[Monica Padman]

But also, I don't want you to be offended by this. I love you deeply.

[James L. Brooks]

Yeah, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

But you're behind the times. Yes, of course. So everyone does know.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, then who is.

[Monica Padman]

I don't want to say it. I don't want to participate in the thing. Right.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I don't want to talk. Don't you do it with the Taylor songs?

[Monica Padman]

Well, do I?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, you go like, oh, that song's about scx.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Charlie.

[Dax Shepard]

Charlie X. Oh, Charlie, what is it?

[Monica Padman]

Charlie S. Oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

Come on now, help me out. You know what?

[Monica Padman]

I'm saying Charlie XCX. I didn't @ first. I thought you were spelling out sex and I didn't understand.

[Dax Shepard]

It. Isn't that what her name spells.

[Monica Padman]

Out? No. X, C. X. Oh, there's xcx. C sounds like E. Even Barack Obama had Charlie xcx on his like top 10 like four years.

[Dax Shepard]

Ago. But that's no shocker. Barry's always ahead of the.

[Monica Padman]

Curve. He's on top of it than I am. I.

[Dax Shepard]

Know. I'm always looking at his book list of the year and going like, oh, I should read some of those. It's not.

[Monica Padman]

Like. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. So I was listening and it one was about like having read every self help book and doing a mushroom trip and I'm like, this sounds like. This sounds like Shawn.

[Monica Padman]

Mandela. Oh, no, I don't.

[Dax Shepard]

Want.

[James L. Brooks]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Why? I don't know. I don't. It doesn't feel.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. It.

[Monica Padman]

Doesn'T. He's a friend of the.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Pod. I.

[Dax Shepard]

Know. There's nothing. I'm not saying he's a bad boy. I'm just saying I think I figured out what the song's about and I was so excited and I understand the detective work people feel like they're doing is very gratifying. So then I start.

[Monica Padman]

Searched.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Well, first I asked.

[Monica Padman]

Chat. Oh.

[Dax Shepard]

God. Who are the songs.

[Monica Padman]

About?

[Dax Shepard]

Sure. Chat's very ethical. Chat won't tell.

[Monica Padman]

Me. Chat is not very.

[Dax Shepard]

Ethical. Mine. Mine is very ethical. It wouldn't tell.

[Monica Padman]

Me.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. It just would say, oh, here's the themes. I don't think it must be.

[Monica Padman]

Liable. It lied to.

[Dax Shepard]

Me. Liable, not lie. I think it.

[Monica Padman]

Lies. But yeah, it's. I don't.

[Dax Shepard]

Know. Anyway, whatever the case, it did take me to a link where. Where this People magazine article. But they were pro. They were pretty much trying to credit every lyric on the album to Shawn Mendes, which. There's been other lovers. I looked up her lovers. There's been a.

[Monica Padman]

Handful. Well, we know some of them.

[Dax Shepard]

Are Barry Coogan is.

[Monica Padman]

One. Hogan. Yes. Okay. I don't want to do this. Feels unethical to me for some reason. I don't know.

[Dax Shepard]

Why.

[Monica Padman]

Interesting. But most of them are about.

[Dax Shepard]

Barry Cuban, so let's not do it. But can we explore why it's feels.

[Monica Padman]

Unethical?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. We also just did Lily James.

[Monica Padman]

And Lily Allen, but that's so explicit. And David, that's my point. Like, I kind of like that. Taylor and Sabrina and other.

[Dax Shepard]

Artists. I need a nickname for her. Maybe.

[Monica Padman]

Sabrine's. Oh, you know, when we had Joey King on some years ago, and she is very good friends with Sabrina Carpenter. And she said that on her ride over. I'll never forget this. She said on her ride, maybe she was lying. Like. Like.

[James L. Brooks]

Chat.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. On a ride over, she was talking to Sabrina, and I think she called her Sabrines or Sabrini or.

[Dax Shepard]

Something. Like, I'm.

[Monica Padman]

Doing. Yeah. And said, I'm going on Armchair Expert. And she said, I love that.

[Dax Shepard]

Show. Oh, my God, we're getting.

[Monica Padman]

Sidetracked.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. So you don't. You don't like to theorize on who these songs.

[Monica Padman]

Are? No, I do. I mean, I already. Again, I already know. We all.

[Dax Shepard]

Know. You already knew Sean Men.

[Monica Padman]

Mendez. People talk about this. It's also obvious, because when you know someone's dating someone.

[Dax Shepard]

Publicly.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Then they break up and then these songs come out. It's like.

[Dax Shepard]

Duh. Yeah. It is interesting, though, because, like, I think about this a lot. This is what brought Truman Capote.

[Monica Padman]

Down.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Is that he used everyone in his life as archetypes for his books. And then it's very, very thinly.

[Monica Padman]

Veiled.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. To the point where people felt quite betrayed and violated by.

[Monica Padman]

Him. It seems so.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. And people did not want to hang out with him at the end. And all he wanted was to be a.

[Monica Padman]

Socialite.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. But when I think about doing an ensemble show as a writer, I have these incredible archetypes in my life, and so I would want to use key essence of them, but then I need to build on and deviate from. From that because I've established their engine now. Now, everything else is arbitrary, but I can see if you're on the outside, you're like. You would be inclined to think everything that came after the archetype was. Was actually fact or reporting, but it's.

[Monica Padman]

Not. Yeah. Anyways, Sabrina Carpenter knows Please, Please, Please is definitely about Barry.

[Dax Shepard]

Keoghan. Oh, really? See, you're telling me.

[Monica Padman]

Something.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Please, please.

[Monica Padman]

Please. My thing is favorite.

[Dax Shepard]

Song. Okay, let me look. Because all I do is listen to this album, and I should know exactly what it.

[James L. Brooks]

Is.

[Dax Shepard]

It's. You're saying, please, please, please. Oh, that's the second song on the chart. Oh, don't embarrass me. Well, it can't be about him. If he's in the video, it was. She would have written the song long before a video gets made. And don't we think the timeline as they met on this.

[Monica Padman]

Video. No, no, no. They were together for 100 years. They were together before the.

[Dax Shepard]

Video. Okay, okay, I. I'm gonna I need to do a little more research on that. I don't know how he would be in the.

[James L. Brooks]

Video.

[Monica Padman]

That's. I mean, it's. It's also, like. It's not. This one is just like. This isn't. You're kind of an embarrassment. But I like you. And you're gonna break my heart. But I like you. Like, it's not like you already did.

[James L. Brooks]

It.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. You.

[Dax Shepard]

Know. Okay. Please.

[Monica Padman]

Please. She's. Please.

[Dax Shepard]

Eating. Anyway, that's not my jam. I mean, I like that song. Every song on the album's great. Yeah, it's a great album.

[Monica Padman]

Monica. Hey. I.

[James L. Brooks]

Know.

[Monica Padman]

Again. I know, because this was, like, two summers.

[Dax Shepard]

Ago. Well, hold on. I don't know if that's the right dates. I have the album right up on my phone. I can. Look. I don't.

[Monica Padman]

Know. About two summers, I think it.

[Dax Shepard]

Was. I mean, she's on tour right now. 2024.

[Monica Padman]

Release. Yep. That's what.

[Dax Shepard]

All. August 23rd.

[Monica Padman]

Summer.

[Dax Shepard]

2024. Summer's kind of.

[Monica Padman]

Over. No, please, please, please. And espresso had already come.

[James L. Brooks]

Out. Okay, okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Let's do some.

[Monica Padman]

Facts. People can't come here for current news. I guess that's.

[Dax Shepard]

That's. Well, I gotta imagine there's a lot of dorks like me in the audience, though, that might. Well, certainly the whole world isn't listening to the album. It's a very big.

[Monica Padman]

Album. It's a huge.

[Dax Shepard]

Album. It's not Thriller, so I'm trying to push it to.

[Monica Padman]

Thriller. Number fact. That. That's, like, the reference. Like, it's.

[Dax Shepard]

It's. That's the biggest album of all.

[Monica Padman]

Time. Okay, but it's.

[Dax Shepard]

Huge. It's a huge album. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Huge. Huge.

[Dax Shepard]

Album. No, it's a. It's a great.

[Monica Padman]

Success.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it could be bigger and a lot. Not everyone is already. Not everyone's sick of it yet. Monica. Some people are just going, I'm sick of it. People are. Some people are going, wow. I've heard of her, but I didn't.

[Monica Padman]

Know. I.

[Dax Shepard]

Can'T. Yeah, okay, but my song. I just want to recommend my.

[Monica Padman]

Song. Okay, you already did, but let's do it again. Let's do it every day. It's your favorite song. You love it. You.

[Dax Shepard]

Do. I love it more than.

[James L. Brooks]

Anything.

[Monica Padman]

I. Well, no, you don't love it more than anything.

[Dax Shepard]

That's. I love it more than.

[James L. Brooks]

Air.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Okay. My favorite song is called Don't.

[Monica Padman]

Smile.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I didn't really have to look it up, but I did look it up. Because I know it's don't smile because it happened. Cry because it's.

[Monica Padman]

Over. Yeah, I love that. I love that line because it's a.

[Dax Shepard]

Blippi. Very validated. Because I sent the song to a very, very accomplished songwriter and producer, and I said, do you like this song? I can't stop listening. Listening to it. And he wrote back immediately, oh, my God, that's my favorite song on that album. Exclamation point. And I felt so.

[Monica Padman]

Validated. That's.

[James L. Brooks]

Great.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. An expert said it was the best song on the.

[Monica Padman]

Album. His favorite. Not the.

[James L. Brooks]

Best.

[Dax Shepard]

He. His favorite would be the best. Oh, he's a musical.

[Monica Padman]

Genius. He can't do this. He might say the best is this, but that's my.

[Dax Shepard]

Favorite. He can't. No way. Whatever song he likes the most, he is the one he'd say is.

[Monica Padman]

Best. No, there are podcasts that I. Are my favorite that aren't the.

[Dax Shepard]

Best. Okay, all right, I'm gonna listen. I'm. We're in the middle of a fact check, and Monica's making me very angry right now because I said I reached out to a very successful and brilliant songwriter to say that. What's my favorite.

[Monica Padman]

Song? Don't.

[Dax Shepard]

Smile. Don't smile. Don't smile. Smile. And that this person responded, oh, that's my favorite on the.

[Monica Padman]

Album.

[Dax Shepard]

Exclamation. And then mon. Exclamation point. And then Monica's suggesting that you didn't say it was the best. And I said, well, your favorite would definitely be the one you think is best. And she said, that's not true. You could think that another song's the best, but that your favorite is Don't Smile. Mile. Who's right?

[Monica Padman]

Phineas. Okay, facts. Okay, now I have someone to call for something.

[Dax Shepard]

Important. Calling Jim Brooks.

[Monica Padman]

Almost. Hey, mom, you're on air, cuz. You didn't send it to me, so now you have to do it.

[Eric (Shoe Maniac)]

Live. Oh, okay. My. The Shoe.

[Monica Padman]

Maniac.

[Eric (Shoe Maniac)]

Yes. Come on down and check me out. I'm the Shoe Maniac. And I sell thousands and thousands of pair of women's all letter shoes. I sell them cheap.

[James L. Brooks]

Folks. That's how I do.

[Eric (Shoe Maniac)]

It. That's why I sell more shoes than anybody downtown. Now, if you like plastic shoes, keep on walking. Because I hate plastic shoes. I can't stand plastic shoes. I sell nothing but all leather shoes. And that's why I sell more shoes than anybody down.

[Monica Padman]

Downtown. Thank you.

[Dax Shepard]

Aaron. So good. Now, is your. Is your character specifically Cajun or that's just a coincidence? Or did you go like, I'm going Cajun with.

[Eric (Shoe Maniac)]

This. Yeah, well, you know. Yeah, I guess I'm kind of talking like this, you.

[James L. Brooks]

Know.

[Eric (Shoe Maniac)]

Sure. I'm missing a front tooth, so I'm. So I think it makes me. I got a little bit of a list.

[Audience Member/Interjection]

Lisp.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. But you always make him Cajun. And that's part of the cell. It.

[Eric (Shoe Maniac)]

Works. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, A little bit like. Yeah, yeah. A little. Little more like flirtatious outgoingness, you.

[Dax Shepard]

Know. Rubber shoes.

[Eric (Shoe Maniac)]

Cor. And we gave out free popcorn at the store. Free popcorn. Free drinks, Free popcorn. And I'd have to pick out a lady, you know, from the crowd and tell her to.

[Dax Shepard]

Come. Come in. Would you pick a. Would you always pick a lady that you thought looked hungry for popcorn or just the prettiest? What was. Who did you.

[Eric (Shoe Maniac)]

Invite? I mean, you find somebody. Usually it was a lady with some kids who looked like she was miserable out there in the sun and, you know, get her in for a. A cold drink and some free popcorn. The free popcorn was a. Was a. You know, that gets all kinds.

[Dax Shepard]

Of people in the.

[James L. Brooks]

Store.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure.

[Monica Padman]

Hungry. Yeah. And then they bring their kids and then they have to buy four pairs of shoes. That's a good hat.

[Eric (Shoe Maniac)]

Back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, and popcorn costs nothing to make. So, you know, that's these. Sometimes I see these stores and they're just, you know, you gotta think of things outside of the box to get people in your store. You can't just have a store and expect people to come.

[Dax Shepard]

In. You gotta break through the.

[Eric (Shoe Maniac)]

Clutter. Gotta break through the crowd, man. Gotta break through your crown. Find.

[Dax Shepard]

Some. There's always.

[Monica Padman]

Something. There's always something. All right, Eric. Well, we love you. And. And I wanted the world to hear.

[Eric (Shoe Maniac)]

That. That I love you to death. You.

[Audience Member/Interjection]

Guys.

[James L. Brooks]

Later.

[Audience Member/Interjection]

Bye.

[Monica Padman]

Bye. So that. That came up because we talked about selling women's shoes. He had a fear of selling women. Having to sell women's shoes for a.

[Dax Shepard]

Living. Oh.

[Monica Padman]

Sure. And our friend Eric, who we brought up in the episode, he sell. He sold women's.

[Dax Shepard]

Shoes. Very.

[Monica Padman]

Child. As a. As a.

[Dax Shepard]

Kid.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. His dad's.

[Dax Shepard]

Business.

[Monica Padman]

Y. And as you can hear, he was great at.

[Dax Shepard]

It. Definitely. Probably even cuter when it's coming out of a 10 year.

[Monica Padman]

Old. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Definitely. He's got a speech.

[Monica Padman]

Memor. Okay. What was the first TV show to have a black lead character sitcom. It was called Julia 1968-71. And then room to 22, which was his. Which was 1969-74. And then the Cosby show full of black leads. Okie dokie. Was Mary Tyler Moore show the first female lead that didn't depend on a man? It says it. Honey west was the first network TV series of a female lead whose story was not dependent on a man. Premiered in 1965, starred Anne Francis as a private detective. While earlier shows featured female leads, Honey west was specifically designed to center on a female character in a non traditional role. A private eye. Okay, what show did Taxi follow? Mash? He didn't say that. He just said a popular show.

[Dax Shepard]

Show. Well also that's an interesting ding ding, ding. Because those both have the most beautiful theme songs that don't match at all their comedic.

[Monica Padman]

Genre. Well, okay, so it followed Mash from the 78 to 79 season and then followed Happy Days during 79 to.

[Dax Shepard]

80, which does not have a super beautiful jazz.

[Monica Padman]

Song. Isn't that Monday, Tuesday, Tuesday, Friday.

[Dax Shepard]

Happy day the weekends.

[Monica Padman]

Go. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Catchy. I used to know all the.

[Monica Padman]

Lyrics. That's.

[Dax Shepard]

Hard. That's.

[Monica Padman]

A. Well, you had to push it aside to have Sabrina in.

[Dax Shepard]

There. I gotta make room. There's a new queen in.

[Monica Padman]

Town. How much money did the Simpsons.

[Dax Shepard]

Generate? Oh yeah, he wouldn't tell.

[Monica Padman]

Us. Yeah, he says he know, but it's estimated to be well over 14.

[Dax Shepard]

Billion. 14.

[Monica Padman]

Billion? Yeah. Dude, that's.

[Dax Shepard]

Awesome. From.

[Monica Padman]

Jokes. I know. How.

[Dax Shepard]

Cool. 14.

[Audience Member/Interjection]

Billion.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Did the Mary Tyler Moore show win a Peabody? Yes, in 77. So that's cool. It also won 29.

[Dax Shepard]

Emmys. Mary Tyler Moore. I've never watched Mary Tyler Tyler.

[James L. Brooks]

Moore. Have.

[Monica Padman]

You? Yeah, because I used to watch when I was at my grandparents house when I was little. They had a Nickelodeon block party summer and Monday through Friday there was a show and then they would just play that show all night. And it was like Bewitched was one night. I Dream of Genie was one night. Mary Tyler Moore show was one night. Some.

[Dax Shepard]

Others. And they'd show a whole season in one.

[Monica Padman]

Night? Well, no, they just showed like some episodes and then for the summer they would do.

[Dax Shepard]

That. Oh, that's.

[Monica Padman]

Fun. Yeah, it was an.

[Dax Shepard]

Education. And did you like it? Yeah, I need to watch.

[Monica Padman]

It. Yeah, I'm sure it holds.

[James L. Brooks]

Up.

[Monica Padman]

Cbd. Oh, no, I mean I'm sure it's still like oh wow, that's.

[Dax Shepard]

Awesome. For the time. I just wonder if you'd go for the time you'd.

[Monica Padman]

Have. I think you might have to say for the.

[Dax Shepard]

Time. For the.

[Monica Padman]

Time. Yeah, that's.

[Dax Shepard]

It. That's.

[Monica Padman]

Everything. That's it for Jim.

[Dax Shepard]

Brooks. Jim Brooks all right, all right. Right, love you. Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry App, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry plus in the the Wondry App or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short [e-mail] survey.