Jenny Taitz (on stress resets)

Summary

Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard: Episode Summary

Episode Title: Jenny Taitz (On Stress Resets)
Release Date: January 15, 2025
Guest: Dr. Jenny Taitz, Clinical Psychologist, Clinical Professor in Psychiatry at UCLA, Bestselling Author

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Introduction to Dr. Jenny Taitz

In this episode, Dax Shepard is joined by Dr. Jenny Taitz, a renowned clinical psychologist and professor at UCLA. Dr. Taitz is celebrated for her insightful work on stress management and mental health, authoring several influential books, including her latest release, "Stress Resets: How to Soothe Your Body and Mind in Minutes."

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Understanding Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) vs. Psychoanalysis

[05:18]
Dr. Taitz elaborates on the distinctions between Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) and psychoanalysis:

"I see CBT as really helping someone... Both look in the rearview mirror. Can you look at what in your past has led to this moment? But also a huge premium on understanding your current mental habits and loops and understanding the process through which we struggle."

She emphasizes that CBT is not merely addressing symptoms but involves a systematic approach to change thought patterns and behaviors, enabling measurable progress.

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Defining Stress and Its Implications

[11:44]
When defining stress, Dr. Taitz states:

"Stress is this mismatch between your demands, what you're facing, and your resources. It's one of those moments when you think it's too much. I can't."

She highlights the subjective nature of stress and warns against negative perceptions of the stress response, noting:

"If you have stress and believe stress is bad for you, that actually increases your risk of dying from stress-related causes."

Dr. Taitz advocates for normalizing stress as a natural part of a meaningful life, encouraging individuals to view their stress responses as adaptive rather than maladaptive.

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Strategies for Managing Stress and Rumination

Dr. Taitz introduces practical techniques to manage stress and reduce rumination:

Mind Resets

[30:30]
A mind reset example includes transforming intrusive thoughts by singing them out of power:

"If you have a repeated unwanted thought like, 'I'm a loser because I don't have plans on Saturday night,'... sing that thought to the tune of 'Do You Believe in Magic,' it automatically loses its grip."

Body Resets

[35:17]
Body resets involve techniques that physiologically alter the stress response, such as:

"Submerge your face in ice water while holding your breath. Your heart rate automatically slows down, activating a parasympathetic response."

This method helps shift the body's stress response, reducing heart rate and calming the mind.

Behavioral Resets

[40:16]
Behavioral resets focus on altering actions to influence emotions. Dr. Taitz introduces the DEAR MAN technique from Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT):

"Describe the facts. Express how you feel. Ask for what you want. Reward. Be mindful. Act confident. Negotiate as needed."

This structured approach aids in effective communication and boundary setting during emotionally charged interactions.

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Implementing the DEAR MAN Technique

[40:33]
In a practical demonstration, Dr. Taitz guides the conversation on applying DEAR MAN during a stressful situation:

"If you're like, 'I'm so thrilled that you're coming to town, but I realize it's easier this time of year to keep our house to our family,' you can express your needs clearly while maintaining kindness."

This technique empowers individuals to handle confrontations with self-respect and compassion, fostering healthier relationships.

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Preventative Measures: Buffers

[43:05]
Dr. Taitz discusses the importance of buffers, which are preventative strategies to maintain lower stress levels before crises arise:

"Buffers are almost like preventative medicine. The things we could do preemptively before the hard thing."

Examples include establishing routines, practicing regular mindfulness, and engaging in activities that promote well-being.

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Handling Panic Attacks and Insomnia

[44:26]
To address panic attacks, Dr. Taitz recommends:

"Practice panic by recreating the sensations in a controlled manner, such as using a straw to control breathing. This helps in radically accepting how you feel."

For insomnia, she advocates for CBT for Insomnia (CBT-I), emphasizing consistent sleep schedules and behavioral adjustments to improve sleep quality without relying solely on medication.

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Real-Life Applications and Personal Reflections

Throughout the episode, Dax and Monica share personal anecdotes illustrating the effectiveness of Dr. Taitz's techniques. Dax recounts overcoming road rage by redirecting his focus, while Monica discusses managing panic attacks by grounding herself through sensory engagement.

Dr. Taitz underscores the empowering nature of these tools:

"We have our own control, alt, delete functions within us. If we know what those are."

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Conclusion and Key Takeaways

Dr. Jenny Taitz's insights provide a comprehensive framework for understanding and managing stress through cognitive, behavioral, and physiological techniques. By implementing mind, body, and behavioral resets, individuals can transform their responses to stressors, fostering resilience and enhancing overall mental health.

Notable Quotes:

• Dr. Jenny Taitz [11:44]: "Stress is this mismatch between your demands, what you're facing, and your resources."
• Dr. Jenny Taitz [30:30]: "Sing that thought to the tune of 'Do You Believe in Magic,' it automatically loses its grip."
• Dr. Jenny Taitz [40:16]: "Describe the facts. Express how you feel. Ask for what you want. Reward. Be mindful. Act confident. Negotiate as needed."
• Dr. Jenny Taitz [43:05]: "Buffers are almost like preventative medicine. The things we could do preemptively before the hard thing."

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Recommended Resources:

• Book: Stress Resets: How to Soothe Your Body and Mind in Minutes by Dr. Jenny Taitz
• Techniques Featured:
  • Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT)
  • Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT)
  • DEAR MAN Technique
  • Mind, Body, and Behavioral Resets

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Stay Connected:

• Follow Dr. Jenny Taitz: UCLA Psychiatry Department
• Subscribe to "Armchair Expert": Available on the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube.

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This episode serves as a valuable guide for anyone seeking practical strategies to manage stress and enhance emotional well-being. Dr. Taitz's evidence-based approaches offer actionable steps to navigate the complexities of modern life with resilience and grace.

Transcript

[Dax Shepard]

Wondry plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now. Join Wondry plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert Experts on Expert. I'm Dan shepherd and I'm joined by Ms. Monica Padman.

[Monica Padman]

Hi.

[Dax Shepard]

Hi Ms. Monica.

[Monica Padman]

Hi.

[Dax Shepard]

Hi mom. How are you doing today?

[Monica Padman]

You know somebody made an Instagram.

[Dax Shepard]

I send it to you.

[Monica Padman]

Yes, Hermium's Instagram. His own Instagram.

[Dax Shepard]

And I think in the description it says you're his mom. I want to applaud whoever made that big high five to whoever grabbed Hermion Permium. I hope he has like a million followers by tomorrow. Okay. Our guest today is Dr. Jenny Tates who is a clinical psychologist, clinical professor in psychiatry at UCLA and best selling author. She has a couple of great books, how to be single and happy end emotional eating. Her new book, which is out currently is Stress Resets, how to soothe your body and mind in minutes.

[Monica Padman]

This was helpful. I think this is a great one for the top of the year.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, no kidding.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, get people in a routine. I feel like when we're overwhelmed now, we turn to a lot of outward sources to help us and it. This was very encouraging that you can look, you can turn inward.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. And she took us to task in a great way.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

And had a lot of recommendations for us personally.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Which we need.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So please enjoy Dr. Jenny Tatez. If you love iPhone, you'll love Apple Card. It comes with the privacy and security you expect from Apple. Plus you earn up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase, which can automatically earn interest when you open a high Yield Savings account through Apple Card. Apply for Apple Card in the Wallet app, subject to credit approval. Savings is available to Apple Card owners subject to eligibility. Apple Card and Savings by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch Member FDIC terms and [e-mail] we are supported by Allstate. Some people just know they could save hundreds on car insurance by checking Allstate firsts. Like, you know, check that you have all the ingredients for a recipe before you start cooking dinner or checking if you need to use the bathroom before you start recording so you don't need to take a break mid show. Checking first is smart, so check all state first for a quote that could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate. This content is intended for audiences in the US Only. Savings vary terms apply Allstate Fire and Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Northbrook, Illinois. You have your own coffee shop. I see. Leora Matcha. That's a matcha.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

That's a matcha. Pistachio milk.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, pistachio milk. Tell me about pistachio milk.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

I discovered it at Leora.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Not too sweet, but little like nuttiness. Nutty.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Interesting.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, I'll give it a whirl.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you have a preferred nut milk?

[Monica Padman]

You know what?

[Dax Shepard]

That's a naughty sounding sentence, by the way. That sounds terrible.

[Monica Padman]

Ew.

[Dax Shepard]

I know. I'm sorry.

[Monica Padman]

I'm back on whole milk.

[Dax Shepard]

There we go.

[Monica Padman]

I've reverted back. Get that calcium?

[Dax Shepard]

Sure.

[Monica Padman]

I used to think it affected my skin. It didn't affect either way. So I went back and I like it.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Love it.

[Dax Shepard]

Is pistachio nut your favorite?

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

No. I usually do LA cologne with a little bit of Laird. Do you know Laird, the Non Dairy Creamer?

[Dax Shepard]

Is it by Laird Hamilton?

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Is it mushroom based?

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

No idea, but it's great. I like that there's, like different flavors. Not too into the seasonal ones. Like they have mocha mint, but they have like plain. A little cardamom Plain.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. He's a special dude, Laird Hamilton.

[Monica Padman]

You know him, right?

[Dax Shepard]

I just met him for the first time the other day, but we were right behind. He and his wife, I think her and Kristen were having a moment where they're very much married to kind of old fashiony guys in some way. I don't know how to phrase that, but she said, listen, I like his vibe. He'll say to me in the kitchen, it's gonna be okay. It is okay. That's like his big saying to her.

[Monica Padman]

I like that.

[Dax Shepard]

Isn't that great? Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Really? Everything is okay because what other option is there?

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Think good and it'll be good.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah. These are all the topics we're gonna get into. Yeah, he's like tapp. Some kind of primitive way we were living that seems to be yielding positive results, like stay very active, stay physically, eat well, eat good, and everything will work out. There's some genius to that.

[Monica Padman]

I believe that.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, let's start with the fact that you teach at my alma mater. Do you like it there?

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

I do. I teach psychiatry residents how to do cognitive behavioral therapies that I specialize in. So it's super cool. We actually do a group where we have a dozen people on a zoom. And it doesn't matter if you have social anxiety, general anxiety, ptsd, the treatment is the same. And so it's awesome because people could come in with social anxiety, ocd Major depression and still get significantly better in a matter of weeks.

[Dax Shepard]

It's a cure all. It works for everything.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

It works for anxiety and depression. Yeah, Anxiety disorders and depression.

[Dax Shepard]

I think the first fun thing, I know what CBT is, and I think a lot of people in the audience will know, but I think maybe we should just delineate the difference between, like, say, psychoanalysis and cbt. And then you have a second kind of specialization that I hadn't heard of. And I want you to tell me about that one as well.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Sure. So it's interesting. I went to graduate school all hyped up. I'm like, I can't believe you can get paid to talk to people. And, like, there's a science to it and you could move the needle and people can get better. And then I did all these things to kind of test the waters to see before you go to grad school for six years. Do you like this?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

And I started volunteering at the suicide prevention center. And literally the first call I got there, someone was listening in to see how I feel to the questions. And I had done all sorts of training through them. And then the final step in the training is this test call. And this woman, she was 14 years old. She had already taken a bottle of pills and was sounding pretty loopy on the call. And during our call, I'm trying to talk to her, someone starts banging on the door. My supervisor, who was listening on the call, had called an ambulance. And the girl was pissed.

[Dax Shepard]

She felt betrayed.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Yeah. And it gave me this sense of I really wanted a career that not only saved lives, but made lives worth living. And I was super stoked. And then I went to nyu. It was really cool. I majored in psychology and social work. And doing the social work bachelor's allowed me to, literally, I would be wearing my collar and then grabbing my Bellevue id. I literally had the opportunity to be a therapist at Bellevue.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so this is kind of a famous institution. Yeah, Bellevue. You hear about people getting sent to Bellevue.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Bellevue at that time, I don't think it's currently there, but Bellevue had a floor in a men's homeless shelter for men who were substance abusing, struggling with mental illness, and homeless. And so I got to do that. And between the suicide prevention center, most people were happy for the help there and working with people that were really struggling with a lot of complex problems. I was like, I want to be a psychologist. It's going to be amazing. And then I get to grad school, and I'm like, oh, my God. These people are kind of weird. I don't want to be anything like these, really professors. These professors seemed super socially anxious. They didn't really have, like, a clear way to define when someone would be ready to graduate treatment or how many sessions it would take. And so this is kind of a way of getting back to this question of the difference between psychoanalysis and cbt. And I think a lot of people misunderstand that CBT is just kind of playing whack a mole on a problem.

[Dax Shepard]

I've heard psychoanalysts describe it that way.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

I see CBT as really helping someone. Both look in the rearview mirror. Can you look at what in your past has led to this moment? But also a huge premium on understanding your current mental habits and loops and understanding the process through which we struggle. And there's kind of a systematic way to measure change, and there's a lot of skill building. So the idea is that we have 400 emotions a day, 6,000 thoughts at least a day, 20,000 breaths a day. Do we have a structure in place to navigate those? I'm all for therapy, but I also don't know if a therapeutic relationship is the way that I see a person transforming their life, being broken.

[Dax Shepard]

I think it's unfortunate they're kind of pitted against each other, because I don't think that's really necessary, because I definitely see the value of cbt. Have a toolkit and have some actionable things you can do. And then also, I think it's very worthwhile of understanding how one ended up in a position where they need these tools.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

And I think good CBT does both. My goal as a CBT therapist is I care about your time. I care about your money. Let's do this. Let's graduate. Let's keep in touch. Come visit me for spot treatments. But go live your best life.

[Dax Shepard]

Monica and I have talked about this a lot. There is this very nebulous zone where you're like, am I ready to quit this or not? And then you're fearful. If you stop psychoanalysis, somehow you're gonna revert or something. It's a very ambiguous conclusion, I can admit.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I feel like saying, I'm stopping therapy. It feels like arrog.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

I love that. That's my goal.

[Monica Padman]

That's great.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

But I also love thinking flexibly. And I want to just say that there are so many psychoanalysts that are totally brilliant, and I have so much respect, so much respect for them.

[Dax Shepard]

We're so in love with Orna.

[Monica Padman]

We do love Orna.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

I need to watch that show. I'm like very bad at tv.

[Monica Padman]

I wonder what you'd think though, coming from inside.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I'm going to make a very bold prediction is I think you'd come into it feeling the way you would feel. And then I do think you would watch Orna do some stuff that is absolutely mind blowing and so worthwhile. And then some level of empathy and optimism I've never seen anyone really display is very impressive.

[Monica Padman]

And you'd probably also have your own ideas about the couples and how you might want to talk to them.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

I don't do couples therapy, so that on its own is super fascinating.

[Dax Shepard]

I would imagine you can do CBT for a couple.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Totally. I target a lot of what someone would want to work on in their marriage. One on one.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. And then what's the second thing?

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

DBT is the second thing. So dialectical Behavior therapy.

[Dax Shepard]

What is that?

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

It's a newer treatment that was developed in the 90s by Marsha Linehan, who was a professor emeritus at University of Washington. And she herself had struggled a great deal early in her life. She came out at the end of her career saying that she felt like she needed to share with her patients. It was actually insane. She went to this hospital that she was hospitalized in herself and told her story and the place was like windowless and depressing and horrible. Aggressive treatments when she was a patient there. And the unit that she was on, this gives me the chills talking about it, is now a DBT unit which teaches mindfulness, interpersonal effectiveness, how to be more effective in relationships, ask for what you want, say no while maintaining self respect and building relationships, emotion regulation, learning to kind of be able to dim down your emotions so they don't feel like they're on an on off switch and be able to act independent of how you feel. So if you're like super mad, can you still be nice to your kid if that's in the service of your value? And then distress tolerance, how to survive a crisis without making things worse. And so DBT is an awesome treatment that is the gold standard in suic but has now been found helpful well beyond that population to treat other difficult to treat problems like substance use.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so it started there and then because of its efficacy, it's now being applied other places. Okay, so your book is called Stress how to soothe your body and mind in minutes. Where to start? I think maybe let's just kind of define stress. I think that too could be an ambiguous word. Some people would call some things stress. That aren't and other things that are not. What would we say stress is?

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

So stress is this mismatch between your demands, what you're facing, and your resources. And so it's one of those moments when you think it's too much. I can't. And so much of stress is really subjective. The thing that's interesting to think about with that is if you have stress and believe stress is bad for you, that actually increases your risk of dying from stress related causes. And so I wouldn't get too down on your body's stress response. That's actually a huge part of what I want to share is if you normalize, like it makes sense that I have stress in my life. If you didn't have stress, your life would probably be pretty shitty and boring.

[Dax Shepard]

There's also a tremendous amount of benefits associated with this stress response. Right. Your immune system improves. There's a lot of things that your body is readying itself to take on a challenge.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Yeah. So if you combine seeing stress is like the price of a meaningful life. And your body stress response is serving you butterflies, is like oxygen helping you improve performance at risk. Youth that are on their way to college that are taught that stress is okay. Everyone feels stress. Stress is something you can deal with.

[Dax Shepard]

It's adaptive, not maladaptive.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

With the right supports, you're not alone. You have nothing to be ashamed of. And what your body's doing in those stressful moments is actually helpful, not shameful. One of my favorite papers on the topic is called turning your knots into bows. Literally teaching people that the knots in their stomach are actually bows improves their performance on like the gre.

[Dax Shepard]

I can feel it. I always say this when we do live shows. It's like all of that stress for me because I trust it now converts immediately into like improved cognition. I can think quicker, you know, I'm more agile. And luckily, because it hasn't gone bad a bunch, I associate that feeling, at least before I walk out on a stage. It's like, oh, good, my superpower has arrived.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

That's amazing because that's totally different than what happens to most people is you have a stressful event. I mean, I think as people, we're masterful at something stressful happens and we multiply it. We think the worst, take something ambiguous and make it 10 times worse. And then that obviously does a number to your body. And then the combination of your mind and body feeling like they're rebelling against you does not put you in a good position to deal with the demands in your life.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. And I don't want to prevent you from framing it in a positive way. But I also think there's some other fun physiological things that are happening when your stress is increasing dramatically. We know that the areas of your brain that are working are also changing. Right. You're probably living in your amygdala when you're at peak stress. Whereas you'd hopefully want to be in your frontal lobe making some executive decisions and putting a plan in place. But just this thinking itself is in a different region if you succumb to that 100%.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

And that's why I teach all sorts of ways to get kind of of out of emotion mind and more into a reasonable mind or wise mind.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

I don't want to minimize stress is very real and a lot of us are feeling super stressed these days. But how do we stop ruminating, which is one of the trans diagnostic, like a cross diagnosis. This is one of the things we targeted in my group and we deal with in DBT. But how do we target overthinking? Something happened for two minutes and you could be playing it 20 hours later. And this is insane. But if you're asked in a lab where there's all sorts of physiological measures hooked up to you about the worst thing that ever happened to you, your body literally re experiences it, even if the person that did it to you is dead. And I know you had Sapolsky on here. Like, how do we break free of overthinking? This is why zebras don't get ulcers.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm a great ruminator.

[Monica Padman]

Me too.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm a world class ruminator.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

I was too. And in Intro to Psych I was like, this is me. This got into why I got into the mindfulness based therapies that I practice because I was like, this actually works for me. And I thought that this was just who I was.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

By the end of the I want you to be a world class ex ruminator.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, I would send you Christmas gifts for now.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

No, no, we're doing it. We're doing it.

[Monica Padman]

So exciting. You also ruminate so much.

[Dax Shepard]

That's probably the clue that binds us.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

We're gonna do it. I just want everyone to hear me out. Anything I say is not something that I randomly thought about this morning at like a gym class. Based on many research papers. The resources are expensive. So we could talk through it all and you could tell me what you think would work.

[Dax Shepard]

Great. Because I wanna know if there's papers on this, like diurnal versus Nocturnal. My nocturnal rumination is its own thing or feels like its own thing. Like in the daytime, I think I have a lot of tools and I employ them pretty well. But I wake up at 3am and I am fucking defenseless. I'm even saying to myself, this is madness. You won't care in the morning. Zero impact on the rumination. But we'll get to that. We'll get to the treatment that's coming our way. But there's a couple things that you lay out in the intro that I think are worth repeating, which is you give these great examples of your husband, Adam. Right. Go ahead. He's in the kitchen one morning, in.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

The kitchen one morning, rushing before work. And we have a small child. We have three small children, but one is the smallest. And he spills literally a gallon of milk on the floor. And Adam likes to make sure that things are properly cleaned. And so he starts aggressively trying to clean up the milk in such a way that he ends up cutting his hand on the cake plate of the bottom of the fridge. And then we didn't have any bandages in the house. So then he runs to the local cvs, busy with the baby at that time. And I also am not quite sure this merits the CVS visit.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure, sure. That's a side note to be dealt with in coup therapy.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Yes, yes, yes. And the great thing about Adam is he came home from this and he was like laughing with my laughter. Okay, so he goes to CVS to get a bandage and some Neosporin and gets into a fender bender.

[Monica Padman]

Stop.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

And like most of life is not spilled milk. And I just want to double down on life is really hard. And I don't want to minimize. And I've certainly been through hard things myself, but the fact that we can go from spilled milk to cutting your hand to a fender bender and thank God it was just a fender bender is mind blowing. And at the same time, I've had these things myself. Like, I was stressed postpartum. This was the second kid. I'm like picking up my nail and thinking, I have no time. I have to pump, I have to get to work. I have a book deadline, I'm out of time. And then I give myself a treatment resistant infection from biting her nails. Literally, it was like picking my nail. Your immune system is down. Apparently when you're nursing. And so my friend's a doctor, they're like, you have sepsis, you need to go to the er.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Like staph infection, Something weird. And then I'm like, okay, so I'm sitting in Cedar's ER for like six hours, and I'm like, I thought I had no time, and now I really have no time. But we're spoiled specialists at doing this to ourselves. And to your earlier point, when we're stressed, the emotional parts of our brain is on fire. But people are also remarkably good at getting better with the right tools. If I had just slowed down and noticed, okay, there's the urge to pick up my nail, I could do something instead.

[Dax Shepard]

I like those examples because it's an ounce of prevention's worth a pound of cure. Because I think a lot of people's pushback will immediately be. And mine is initially, I don't have time to add something to my plate, right? Like, I don't want to do any mindful practice, or I don't want to stop for five minutes in the middle of this experience that check in and use some of the tools. I don't have the five minutes to do that. But I would just argue that nine times out of ten, it's going to cost you far more time. Because they do. They just compound. And then, not to out my wife, but I watch my wife in the kitchen, frazzled. And yes, she's moving too fast. Cause she feels like she's done. Now we've got a spilled thing. And I'm just watching from the sidelines going like, oh, wow, there's just a tornado of things now cascading.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Or you have like an issue at work and then you're an asshole at home. And then that's like, let's just make your whole life terrible now.

[Monica Padman]

Everything's bad. No, places are bad.

[Dax Shepard]

Almost all of us, we have some really counterproductive responses. So people that are tight on money may find themselves overspending as the result of that. Or they have a big deadline, and then the response is procrastination, or trying to perfect the thing they have the deadline about. Or you're feeling anxious and you start researching this and hyper focusing on it. And now you're in panic. So a lot of the ways we deal with this is that.

[Monica Padman]

Well, I think that's everyone with WebMD. Everyone's an expert now on every single thing that's wrong with them. And you just go immediate to panic. I do panic a lot.

[Dax Shepard]

I was gonna say we could only fix panic.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

No, no, no, no, no. Seriously, guys, nothing makes me more excited. This is my Christmas. Like, I feel like you're giving me a Christmas gift. Another thing that is on the list of things that backfire, that was the impetus for writing this book, is so many people, especially people that are lucky enough to get help. Help. 30 million Americans take benzodiazepines.

[Dax Shepard]

So here's where you and I are perfectly aligned. And I can already tell you what the comments are going to be. People are going to yell at me and go, it saved my life. Lay off benzos. I'm not talking to you. I'm talking to the person.

[Monica Padman]

I need to yell at them.

[Dax Shepard]

No, I need to yell at them. I'm not talking to you. I'm talking to the person that, as we describe this, you know, in your head, I could probably get through this without this. It is a huge epidemic no one wants to talk about. And in your book, 93 million prescriptions for benzos a year in this country. So, yes, a lot of people need them. They are saving some people's lives. They're also dramatically over prescribed, and there's a huge cadre of people who are addicted to them. I've watched people get sober for 20 years. It is one of the gnarliest things to get off of. Your brain chemistry is so altered for so long, you could be smoking crack for a year straight. After 30 days of sobriety, you'll be pretty back to normal. I've seen benzo addicts take a year to return. I'm so pro drugs, do mdma, go do mushrooms, but that one you really look out for.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Yeah. And I'm happy to talk a little bit about what my issues are with it. So, I mean, a few things. The first thing to realize is, do you know about their history, like, how they were developed? They were testing antibiotics, basically, and they noticed that mice on the verge of being electrocuted were acting passively when they were given this compound. And so I don't know about you, but if I was about to be electrocuted, I would like to be.

[Monica Padman]

You'd like to feel it.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

I'd like to be on high threat alert. And so then Arthur Sackler of the opioid crisis started marketing these to women in the 1950s.

[Dax Shepard]

It was mother's little heart helper.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Exactly.

[Monica Padman]

It was the Sacklers.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. They've got a rich history.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

But I don't know about you, but I don't think a pill is a cure for an unsatisfying life. And my goal wouldn't be to, like, be dragged into submission if my days are dissatisfying. I also just think it's interesting that when you need to be your sharpest, when you're stressed and you need to have your full brain to solve problems in front of you. You're taking something.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm moving through the world. I'm seeing tons of people really up on benzos that I don't think most people people are.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

The thing that breaks my heart, Dax, is that so many of my patients come to me not realizing that there are other options. I love people and I think people are amazing, but these people seem like they might have had a brain injury. Sometimes people that are incredibly privileged that keep going up on the dose because, like, a coner's physician is willing to keep you habituate to it and you need to keep raising the dose.

[Dax Shepard]

Both things are true. You're abusing it more and you're building intolerance. Yeah.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

And like you, I believe, of course, if you need this take, you know, a patient of mine was like, I feel so bad. I have to take this. I'm finding out tomorrow if this ailment is terminal or not. I'm like, oh, my goodness. For me, like, to tell you what.

[Dax Shepard]

To do, I think there's some acute use, which is great.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

One cool thing for people that are listening that are thinking, I tried to detox once and it was hell. I don't know if this is anecdotal or larger, but I've had a couple of clients recently that are taking drugs like GLP1s and finding that their detox is going a little bit better on the face.

[Dax Shepard]

So that for people who don't know GLP1s are ozempic, all the semaglutide.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

One person that has tried that I'm thinking of in particular on like 6 milligrams. And really his whole life was on hold, like, yeah, okay, your body's not stressed, but you're not able to get a job.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, that's cool that that's helping because they're starting to really look into those GLP1s for addiction. I'm very encouraged by it.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

I'm not a psychiatrist, so I can't say for sure, but this person has found that really helpful. And so one of the things coming back to you, Soleil, that brought me into writing this book was a colleague of mine, a psychiatry resident, Gil Hoffman, was saying in the peak of COVID when people were super stressed, like, hey, did you. You see this new paper that found that this song called Weightless was found by researchers at the University of Pennsylvania to reduce anxiety before surgery, almost to the same effect as a benzo. And I was like, what? That's crazy listening to a song for five minutes. Actually, the song is so relaxing.

[Dax Shepard]

What's the song?

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

It's called Weightless. This is what I play for my kids if they're not going to sleep.

[Dax Shepard]

What a hat.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Wow. You could do that for your middle of the night.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, it might help. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I use a book on tape to get out of it, but, yes.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

It just opened my mind that there's so many things we don't realize that are free of side effects. We live in this world where it's like the fancier the better, but, like, there's simple things.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so people love this quote. I'm going to read it again. It bears reading. Viktor Frankl, Holocaust survivor, psychiatrist. What's his great book? He's got a great book.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Man's Search for Meaning.

[Dax Shepard]

The quote is, between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space lies our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and freedom. And the goal of your book is to widen that space.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Yeah. There's so many things we could do moment to moment to make it a little easier. Maybe when emotions are super high, you can't do the hardest thing, but you could do something like relax your face, which automatically signals to your brain that I need to stop judging and thinking this is the worst. And then that maybe allows you to find your breath. And then maybe you could do the next thing and there's all these things you could stack together.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. The first part of the book is called Befriending Stress. And we're kind of already been dancing around it. Right. Which is a bit of reframing or really coming to see it as something useful for you. And one was the knot to the bow. Do you want to elaborate on that at all?

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

If we could really normalize that. Our body's serving us and we don't need to judge it and we don't need to be ashamed of it, then it automatically stops the cycle of Your body does something. Your mind makes it worse, your body then gets worse, and then it's a tornado.

[Monica Padman]

I also think of stress as being a good indicator. If I'm feeling the physicality of stress or anxiety, it makes me think what's going on in my life that is causing it to then address that. If you look at it as, oh, it's actually telling me something, then I think that's a smart way of embracing stress and saying that, oh, actually, so I need to look at what's going on.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

I love that. And I think you could also swap the Word stress for emotions. Like this is also so relevant with emotions. Or people judge their emotions and then judge their body's emotional response. But you could use the two synergistically.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. How do we regulate our emotions?

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

So many ways to regulate our emotions. I keep coming back to this three part sequence of our thoughts, our physical sensations and our behaviors. So if you dissect an emotion into like its fundamental ingredients, it's thoughts, physical sensations, behavior. So it's like you go to sleep and you start telling yourself, I need to go to sleep two hours ago because I have this important meeting tomorrow morning that is going to to make you feel probably more tense and revved up. And then who wouldn't start scrolling on their phone? And so just noticing like what is the arc of my emotions? What are the ingredients that are creating anxiety for me in this moment? Or sadness. Sadness doesn't just happen to you. We co create sadness, we think sad thoughts, we act in ways that perpetuate sadness. But if we can take a step back and notice that our minds are full of like spam, a lot of the content in our mind is not necessarily useful or true. And if we choose our behaviors like it sounds very simplistic, but behavioral activation, like helping people create a schedule that's full of activities that are pleasant and also give you a sense of accomplishment. You don't just want to be sitting around basking in the sun. You also don't just want to be on the StairMaster for hours. You need like a good mix of activities. But doing that works as well as antidepressants for major to moderate depression. And I'm not against antidepressants, but I just want people to have a whole host of things. So we manage our emotions by noticing how we're co creating them and changing our behaviors in response to them. And so one of my favorite tools all around, regardless of the emotion, is a skill opposite action. Because any emotion you want to change, you're angry at someone and the intensity isn't helpful for the situation or it's not in line with your values, giving them the benefit of the doubt and being a little nice. I mean, we think that acting angrily is somehow cathartic, but that's actually pumping up anger. That's what I would do as a couples therapist or what I do with my individual clients. You hate your spouse and you want to criticize them endlessly and be aggressive. Can we try to think about something with a more generous interpretation and plan? Like a secret caring gesture, like can you get this awesome Coffee for the person and not have any expectations or start counting like, I did this.

[Dax Shepard]

If I'm understanding this correctly, it's almost like you want to reverse the order of events. So you're saying normally you have an emotion, stress or whatever the thing is you're ruminating on. And then you start thinking about it. Your body has all these sensations, it starts responding. In the worst case, it's like getting into flight or fight. And then a behavior results from that sensation because you want to soothe yourself. So you pull out your phone and you start scrolling or you pull out your weed pipe and you take a hit or you do whatever thing. You go shopping. It's almost as if.

[Monica Padman]

Don't point at me.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm not. So it's almost as if, if you're more thoughtful about putting your behavior first, then that almost reverse engineers itself. It goes in the other directions. Like I did something pleasurable that had some purpose and some community and some communication. And then my body felt calm and relaxed and then my thoughts were better.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Yeah, both things are true. It's stress is like that cycle. But our emotions, the behavior that we're engaging in is creating the emotion as well. And so if I feel really ashamed, that's not just out of nowhere. It's thinking thoughts about not being enough and then acting in ways that are hiding. You go to the party and you're on your phone the whole time. No one's going to talk to you. Then you really feel like you're out of control.

[Dax Shepard]

They become self fulfilling.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Yeah. And so our response to our emotion amplifies that emotion, but also our response creates the emotion.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, what a wicked cycle.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

I think a lot of people have this idea that just changing your behavior isn't really going to do much. That's superficial. And I just want to say a couple things. We do this all the way. And so it's not like I'm being nice and thinking resentful thoughts. It's like all the way. And it's not just helping this moment. But if I have negative core beliefs, if I have beliefs from my childhood that I'm not lovable, the only way to change those beliefs is to transcend them with my behavior to create a new narrative. And so this isn't just, oh, right now I'm like acting opposite or as some of my clients would say, like the George Costanza approach. It's like, no, actually you're creating a new reality and feeling like you have agency.

[Dax Shepard]

And again, you just mentioned two more AA things. It's Easier to act your way into thinking differently than thinking your way into acting differently. And that is so fucking true. Your brain sometimes will catch up with your actions, and then you want self esteem. Do esteemable acts.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

I love aa. I don't know if you're allowed to do this, but when I was working at the Bellevue thing, I used to go to meetings there.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, there's open meetings.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

I dragged a client there also. And I was like, this is so great. He was looking at me like, we're leaving. I'm like, no, no, no, we're staying. We're staying. As long as this goes. I hope this goes for hours.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Do you trip out at all? A lot of it is CBT that they didn't know was cbt. Okay, so let's talk about resets. So you have mind resets, body resets, and behavior resets. So how would these work?

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

The notion of a book on stress is such an irony, because who has time to read when they feel like they don't have a minute? And so the book is almost like a cookbook. Resets is kind of the equivalent of urgent care. What to do in this moment if you feel really flooded, and if your problem in this moment is your mind is really ruminating or doing those things, we have mind resets. We have body resets, which will also help your mind and then behavioral resets to change your behavior.

[Dax Shepard]

Give me an example of a mind reset.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

A mind reset is even just singing your thoughts. So we all have thoughts, like I said, that are more like spam, that are just simply unhelpful. And 90% of people report having intrusive, unwanted thoughts. So if you have a repeated unwanted thought like, I'm a loser because I don't have plans on Saturday night, not a super helpful thought to think. And so if you could sing that thought to the tune of do you believe in magic, it automatically loses its grip.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, well. Cause it's silly.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

You guys have to sing.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't have plans on Saturday.

[Monica Padman]

No, no.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

I'm a loser. I'm a loser.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm a piece of shit. Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Takes away its power.

[Dax Shepard]

Stay tuned for more Armchair expert if you dare.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist.

[Dax Shepard]

Wrist.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum compared to previous generations. IPhone XS are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary.

[Dax Shepard]

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[Monica Padman]

I was at Molly's gym and she has a peloton and every time I'm there I try to sneak up there and get a little workout. Steal a sesh because it is so fun.

[Dax Shepard]

It is the whole instructor part in the class.

[Monica Padman]

Yes. And any chance you can make working out fun, I'll take it.

[Dax Shepard]

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[Monica Padman]

Variety and it's convenient, which I really like. We need that.

[Dax Shepard]

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[Dr. Jenny Tates]

I get my best ideas for my clients are like what are thoughts to the Hadaway song? What is love? And then with the Saturday Night Live clip is even better. Do you know what I'm talking about? No, I think it's Jim Carrey is in a sketch singing what is love? Baby, don't hurt me Baby, don't hurt.

[Dax Shepard]

Me Baby, don't hurt me oh, yeah. He joins the Will Ferrell and Catan, the Roxbury Boys, and he sings that song.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Okay, so if you swap in, instead of what is love? What are thoughts?

[Dax Shepard]

What are thoughts? Baby, don't hurt me Thoughts can't hurt me. Oh, thoughts can't hurt me anymore. Is that it?

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Yes. I mean, that's one of the options you have at your disposal for ruminating, because again, a lot of us have the same content that's just been there for ages that's not serving us, that we take very seriously. Like, I wouldn't sit there and respond to spam emails or answer robocalls, but why are we doing that with our thoughts?

[Dax Shepard]

We accept that insanity is repeating the same thing, expectations, different results. And yet we're having the same thoughts we've been having for three decades, and.

[Monica Padman]

We think each thought is equal, that one thought is as relevant as I love you thoughts. And they're not. Some are not true. Thoughts aren't true inherently, but they create real feelings.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Like, if I told you to think about a cockroach while you're ordering avocado toast, it's going to make you lose your appetite. Like, they really affect your physiology. And so if we could even just see. Like, any thought in the middle of the night is worth singing.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. And what about a body reset?

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

A body reset could also change your mind. Because you change your body, you could change your mind. But a popular body one, I'm just giving you one. There's many out here. Many work for different people. It's like sometimes you need a tweezer, sometimes you need a hammer at different skills at different times. But if you were really stressed, if you took a salad bowl and filled it with ice water, held your breath, set a timer for 30 seconds and submerged your face in ice water. We have all these incredible features within us that we forget. Like, our body is truly our own walking pharmacy. And so. So if you submerge your face in ice water while holding your breath, your heart rate automatically slows down. It activates like a parasympathetic response. So your heart rate would probably go down like 20 beats per minute on an apple watch. You would redirect blood flow to your brain and to your heart.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. Because it thinks you're submerged in water is going to save the most vital organs totally.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

And also, how can you possibly be ruminating in that moment? I don't think you should be doing this all the time, but I think just even metaphorically realizing, like, there's something that can help you you in seconds. We have our own control, alt, delete functions within us. If we know what those are. Yes, they take a little bit of work, but they also come with this priceless feeling of knowing you can count on yourself.

[Dax Shepard]

What about box breathing or breathing exercises? Do you like those?

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

I really like the breathing. In for five and out for five. Coherent breathing or paced breathing?

[Dax Shepard]

Be more literal about that. So you breathe.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Yeah. We could do this together.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, yeah, let's do it.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm going to sit in the way you just did.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

My feet don't reach the floor for the listener.

[Dax Shepard]

We've become very erect in our posture.

[Monica Padman]

That's right.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

So if you gently close your lips and breathe in for five seconds. I hope everyone tries this while they're listening. Breathe in for five. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. And out for five. Also through your nose. If you want to tack onto this. You could ever so slightly raise the upper corners of your lips into, like, a half smile, which is like a facial expression of. Of acceptance. Monica has, like, such a model half smile.

[Dax Shepard]

I got a little glow across my face. Do you feel anything? No.

[Monica Padman]

I think the smiling is shockingly.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

And it's a half smile and it's for you. It's like, I accept this moment. So the half smile plus the slow breathing, it's like, yeah. Even if you're getting a root canal, maybe you can't smile. But there's something about this slow breathing.

[Dax Shepard]

I just want to now breathe the rest of this because it feels so good.

[Monica Padman]

It did feel nice.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Five minutes of doing this. Slow breathing reduces blood pressure. Doing it for 20 minutes a day is known to affect your nervous system. Helps with things like ibs. I interviewed a bunch of people for the book, obviously, and there's a couple. They're both psychiatrists and based out of Columbia University in New York. They actually became so mesmerized by slow breathing that they now don't prescribe medications. They mostly prescribe this breath work. And they're even working with people that are in disaster zones.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, back to Laird. That's his big thing. He does, like, breathing workshops. I was at this thing where you could do all these different kind of mini clinics, and he hosted this breathing one. I didn't do it because I'm like, I don't how to breathe. I'm going to go watch the animation thing. And then by the end of the conference, the Most unanimous thing. The thing people like the most, and there was really exciting offerings was this whole breathing workshop he did. People were like, that was the best I felt in a decade.

[Monica Padman]

Wow.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Yeah. And again, this takes seconds. Instead of picking my nail, I could have half smiled and slow breathed and done some sort of gesture of, you got this, it's okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

And then maybe that would have led to like some sort of problem solving of. Okay, let's try to rework why I feel over.

[Dax Shepard]

Not to be so egocentric, but I do wanna know what I'm doing when I do this. So my biggest breakthrough in road rage, which I am terrible about, not anymore, but I used to be terrible at it, is while I'm monitoring whoever I'm mad at, right. Who I think is a bully on the road. And I'm gonna teach them a lesson. I make myself either start reading license plates and I gotta say them out loud, JL67, or start reading the signs of the buildings I'm passing. And I can't tell you how effective that that's been. It's just like literally forcing myself to focus on something different than the thing I want to. That's what no one else wants to admit to. There's also a high that comes along with your self righteous indignation. We get off on this. We're a little addicted to this. We like feeling superior and morally on our high ground. And the whole anger thing's a little intoxicating for me. I also have to admit there's a bad cycle of kind of, you know, pleasure seeking in it.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Back to this thing of like, do you want to be right or do you want to be effective?

[Dax Shepard]

And then what about behavior resets, even planning pleasant things?

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

A lot of times we're like, oh, no, I'm too busy to do something nice. But actually doing positive experiences and really learning to savor them and relive them.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I think it requires kind of like a whole paradigm shift in your head. I know. It happens in aa, right? Which are people like, I can't go to a meeting because I had a thing for my daughter. And I can't go to a meeting because I have a thing for work. And you have to really instill in people. You only have those things if you're sober. The whole thing's built upon this foundation. And I think for a lot of people, the notion that they can't take a walk with friend, that they don't have time to do that. So. Well, if you can't do that, the rest of the things are going to go away or they're going to suffer.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Right. So walk is totally a behavior reset. Even learning how to assert yourself, like if you're annoyed with someone, instead of stewing in it, I can give you a formula for how to ask for what you want. Say no. So you're not overthinking it.

[Dax Shepard]

What's the formula?

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

It's from dbt, Dialectical Behavior Therapy. And it's called Dear man, and it's an acronym for Describe the facts. Express how you feel. Ask for what you want. Reward. Like, what's in it for the other person. Be mindful. Act confident. Negotiate as needed.

[Dax Shepard]

Walk us through.

[Monica Padman]

Can you give us a hard time?

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Yeah, give me. Give me something hard. Someone that's really annoying you.

[Dax Shepard]

You can't make it about us. Cuz. Cuz it's too triggering, too explosive.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

There's so many times that people think, oh my God, these people want to stay with me for like two weeks when they're in town for the holidays. Most people default to hosting them begrudgingly or making up a lie.

[Dax Shepard]

This is a great one. Let's stick with this one.

[Monica Padman]

A lot of people have this.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

But if you're like, okay, I'm so thrilled that you're coming to town, I can't wait to see you. I realize that it's a bit easier this time of year to just keep our house to our family. Really want to spend some quality time with people that we don't get to see that are going to be in town at the same time. But I would love to plan a couple of really fun dinners. And I can also totally help you with some great local options of hotels that are right near me or Airbnbs that have good options for extended.

[Dax Shepard]

I can imagine someone doing that for the very first time and then waiting with the craziest sense of anticipation of what the response is like if they've never tried that.

[Monica Padman]

What if the person says, so you don't want me to come?

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

This is hard because there's so much in the book, but you have to do the Dear man with also this best friend called give, which is like the give is the food for the relationship, which is being gentle, interested, validating, easy manners. So maybe the person says, you don't want me to come? Of course I want you to come. That's why I want to plan these really special dinners and want to make this time not with the chaos of the aunt that's staying for two days and the cousin that's coming for another day. And part of Dear man is also calculating intensity. Because sometimes people are at the airport screaming at someone at a 10 when there's no seat. What are you going to do about that? The person's not capable of giving you what you want. And so I also go through how to compute. Should you be at a 1, should you be at a 10? And someone might be pushing back because you're at a three, and maybe you warrant a seven. And this is why I wrote this book. Because a lot of people can't afford therapy or forget these when the cousin texts you.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

And for you to have basically on like a post it. How to do this in the heat of the moment. Because that is stressful. Having someone in your house that you don't want there or continuing to reward your neighbor.

[Monica Padman]

I feel like I've tried and learned some helpful tips with boundaries. These are all boundaries conversations, like how to implement them with kindness. But I think putting it on me sometimes saying, I'm not gonna be my best self if we do this. And then that's gonna aff. I don't want you to stay. It's. I know that I will be overwhelmed.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

I love that. And Monica, I think the thing that's great about that is then even being clear. My agenda here is self respect. And even if someone's mildly annoyed, self respect is my aim.

[Dax Shepard]

It's gotta take priority. Yeah. I like that technique quite a bit.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't have any problem with kind of confrontation.

[Monica Padman]

We both don't have that much trouble with that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I know. Some people are just completely arrested with this inability to have this uncomfortable exchange feelings. Yeah. And I am so blessed. It's one of my blessings is I'm like, well, the alternative to me is not an option. Me being uncomfortable for two weeks versus being uncomfortable for 12 minutes on the phone, I'm gonna always pick that. For me. There's just like a cost reward analysis. Right.

[Monica Padman]

There's still a way to do it without being like, you can't come because I'll be. I'm mad.

[Dax Shepard]

When you're here for five days, the house starts smelling like you. That's terrible.

[Monica Padman]

I hate it. I hate that smell. Yeah. You can still be kind about it. Some people think you're just hurting their feelings and that's mean. There's a middle ground.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

You can get what you want. You can get the relationship and you can get self respect if you know how to do it.

[Dax Shepard]

Let's talk about buffers.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

In addition to learning how to deal with Intense moments. Whether your mind is making you miserable or your body feels like it's waging a war against you, or you're doing things that are just spreading your stress, we also need to learn how to live a life that feels less stressful. We don't just want to go from like, hard time to hard, hard time. And so buffers is almost like preventative medicine. The things we could do preemptively before the hard thing.

[Dax Shepard]

You don't want to always be responding, you want to be proactive.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Totally.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, body buffer.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Yeah. So a body buffer. Coming back to the promise of panic. If someone has panic attacks, one of the most research backed ways to treat panic is actually practicing panic. And so if someone feels like, oh my God, all of a sudden, I'm short of breath, I'm really sweaty, I feel shaky, I feel dizzy, I feel kind of like dissociative, we can help you recreate those. And so the worst thing to do is to try to calm down when your heart is racing. Like, that's really stressful. But if you practice, just imagine you take a straw and you pinch it so it's narrow in diameter, like a tiny coffee stir size diameter, where you could take a regular straw and make that happen. Close your nose and then just breathe from the small opening of the straw. You could do that for 60 seconds. And you're like, whoa, I just made myself feel the way I sometimes feel out of the blue. And when it comes up out of the blue, I'm really spooked by it. If you practice recreating the sensations that you normally run from, when they come up, you can kind of put out a welcome mat to them. You stop the loop of like really bad. Go to the er. This is dangerous. This is getting worse. But instead it's like, okay, I can radically accept how I feel because I've tried this before. I've been here before. And so recreating your body stressful response so you can experience it without whatever.

[Dax Shepard]

Triggered it in the first place. Yeah.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Or without the negative layer of interpretation. So I'm just so curious because you mentioned you had panic.

[Monica Padman]

I used to have full panic.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Have you tried this before?

[Monica Padman]

I have not tried that. My therapist, she told me to like, name three things you see, name three things you smell, you know, anchor down, name touch things. And that helped. I haven't had one in a really long time.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Yeah, I mean, when someone comes to my office with panic, I'm not like a cocky person, but I'm like excited. I'm like, I Can treat this. And this doesn't take very long. I mean, panic, again is your body's doing its thing and you're hyper focusing on it. It's almost like the Chinese finger trap. If you stop biting.

[Monica Padman]

Well, also knowing what it is. I think that's so helpful to straw, because then when you're in a panic attack, you're like, oh, this is what is happening.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

I practice this.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. For so long. I was like, I have a tumor. I definitely have a brain disorder that's causing all of this. Whenever I went to the doctor, they. They were like, you don't.

[Dax Shepard]

Sorry.

[Monica Padman]

You don't.

[Dax Shepard]

Sorry to tell you. The results are.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. They're like, I think you should go to therapy. And when I finally started to believe that and when it would happen, I was like, oh, I'm panicking. I'm having a panic attack. I'm not dying. No one's ever died from a panic attack. Then it went away.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Yeah, and this is my thing. It's like if you were taking a benzodiazepine, you might have never learned that lesson. You could learn this lesson in the panic exercises that I'm recommending. Take about 5 minutes, and then you would just need to replicate again. This is not a random thought by Jenny Tate. This is in the Unified protocol, which is a gold standard treatment for panic attacks. And it applies across the board. Like, if you have those symptoms before giving a speech or before flying or during flying, you can still change your body's stress response.

[Dax Shepard]

And what about behavioral buffers? What would that entail?

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

So many to choose from. But one of my favorites is called a chain. If you make a mistake, instead of doing one of two things, which I think a lot of us are prone to doing, a lot of us oversimplify, like, oh, yeah, no big deal. I'll do better tomorrow. Or we struggle with this thing called the abstinence violation effect of, like, I can't do it. It's too much. Like, I messed up once. Like, I don't have it in me.

[Dax Shepard]

You failed at it once, you'll fail at it forever.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Yeah. You can take a moment to, like, literally write down. Even if you took a piece of paper and folded it in half vertically, what was the sequence of events? What made you more vulnerable? Like, I didn't sleep well, didn't exercise, didn't eat breakfast. This thing happened. I did this. Write down exactly what happened. Almost like you're rewinding a tape with compassion. And then you can go and create solutions at every step along the Way.

[Dax Shepard]

Can I have a little food before Totally.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

And then you have, like, a million solutions. And so instead of being like, I'm just an asshole that sends mean texts to people, I'm, like, empowered to see what is the setup. I didn't ask for what I wanted earlier. Then I felt more resentful. Then I used my text instead of picking up the phone. And so there's a lot of tools, but people that think like, oh, my God, I set these resolutions I can't stick to. You actually can, if you understand what is the domino effect and how do you change each step of the way?

[Dax Shepard]

Committing to the laundry list that led up to this event totally.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Instead of, I'm an idiot or I'll do better tomorrow.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm incompetent. I'm not enough. I have a fundamental character flaw that prevents me from doing this thing versus these 12 things happened, and now we're here.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

That's very Sapolsky, too.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

I'm really struck by certain findings. Like, again, I really am passionate about things where things are very serious, like suicide prevention and something as simple. Jerome Motto is one of the first people that created a suicide prevention initiative in the 1930s. He's a psychiatrist, and he did something as simple as sending people who left the hospital a letter that said, I'm thinking of you and hoping you're doing well and no need to respond. And that literally prevented suicide.

[Dax Shepard]

Wow.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

We don't want to do things either to us or to the people around us. We want to instead take vicious cycles and create virtuous ones and take these moments of pain. I mean, I feel like the moments I feel most proud of are the times where things were really stressful. It's almost like chiseling your muscles of emotion regulation. I was in a really bad mood that day. I had a shitty day. And I was super sweet to my daughter on her way to swim team. Or I was especially nice to, like, an older person that was in front of me taking forever in the grocery store.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Okay. So I had one specific question. I think the hardest time to use any of these tools is when you're in the middle of a fight with a partner. Partner. Or like a family member. I find that once you're in that zone, stopping it and resetting is, I think, the hardest for me, maybe. How would you advise?

[Monica Padman]

Cause you're the most emotional, right? Or no?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I'm the most emotional. I think the stakes feel highest because it's someone I love. I'm in a very heightened state and I don't know how to do the thing I do in traffic, which is look at a sign, do this, distract myself, check in. And I'm curious how one interrupts this while in a fight with their partner.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

One thing you could do is even thinking about the values. Like how do you want to show up in your life? A lot of us are focused on what we want to get, how do we want to be spoken to, how do we want people to show compassion to us, but how do we want to show up? And so being really clear about regardless of what happens. This is my mission statement. I'm not going to deviate from this. In students that write briefly about their highest values, years later, they're more able to regulate their emotions and persist with long term goals. I think also just realizing, is there some sort of word we could say that's funny and playful? Yeah, let's take a minute. This is the whole thing, like distress tolerances. How do we not make things worse? And then once we came down a few decibels, then we can go to the problem solving. But if there's something we could do to self soothe. I love this idea of even a hope kit. Like a collection of things that gives you a sense of hope. Like looking at some pictures that just broaden your view outside of this moment, that's not going well to some broader moments of connection and joy. And so something that could help you realize, like, okay, in this moment, this isn't about who's right or who's wrong. This is about me doing what matters most to me and what my highest purpose is. And I am too dysregulated to continue to stay here. It's almost like getting up in the middle of an exam and getting a sip of water and then coming back. Let's try to come back. Stonewalling is a problem with slamming doors. She'll be like, hey, I think we both need to get some water.

[Dax Shepard]

I know I do.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Yeah, in like a lovely way. Not. You made me so upset that I need to like.

[Dax Shepard]

But asking if you can take a minute to do some breathing.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

I think it would be so sweet to do that together. Like, we care too much about each other. Let's try this thing for a minute. Because things that are so interesting if like in the middle of a fight something funny happens, you forget the fight, or in the middle of spiraling, someone calls you and they're funny, you could totally stop. And again, it's realizing the channel can change if you let go.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm gonna admit this so we do this thing, family square. We probably do them once, everybody, every couple months. It's when someone has an actual issue that they need to bring up in the family. We all sit down on the ground. So everyone's low, there's no interrupting, there's some ground rules. And so most often the family square is about the kids. But we had a family square a couple days ago, and, yeah, Kristen and I got into our loop. You would think. I mean, the thing I'm most committed to in my entire life is the kids. And we're in a loop. I can see where in a loop. I can see it's upsetting the kids. The thing I care the most about. And we can't get out until one of the kids goes, you guys aren't listening to each other and you're making it worse. And I'm like, I know the fucking nine year old's seeing how obvious this is. And I was just thinking, because there were moments during it where I'm like, I know what's happening. I don't know how to get out of it.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Right. Telling yourself, like, okay, we could put this down and pick this up at this time. Because I think we think that we're winning by keeping it going, but we're majorly losing.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, what I think is I'm finally gonna craft a sentence that's so direct, clever, correct, that it'll penetrate the cycle. And she thinks the same thing.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

But I could tell from listening to you that you are a masterful sentence crafter and you can totally create that.

[Dax Shepard]

That's why I'm misled by.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

No, no. But to have faith in yourself.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't know. No, I think I'm a victim of thinking. I'm sorry.

[Monica Padman]

Yes. That is what's happening.

[Dax Shepard]

We had a fight yesterday, Monica and I. And literally this morning, I'm still thinking about it. I'm like, I know exactly how I could have got her to understand what I was saying. I should have said X, Y, and Z. Like, I'm still thinking a day later how I could have gotten her to understand my point had I crafted it better. And of course, no, that wouldn't have worked either.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

No.

[Monica Padman]

And I too, I like driving in the morning.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

I'm just like, if emotions are high on both ends, even if it's the perfect explanation, the receiver's not gonna receive it. And so these are amazing ongoing relationships that it doesn't have to be right then and there.

[Monica Padman]

That is what is helpful. I know. It's like, okay, we're Gonna come, we're gonna record. It will be fine. Cause we'll put that aside for this. And we did. And then it is fine.

[Dax Shepard]

Who cares?

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Then you do. You come back at some point. You just say, like, who cares? I kind of forget all the details of the thing I wanted to bring up.

[Dax Shepard]

Anyway, I'll admit this too. This morning when I was thinking, like, I should have said it this way, I was like, also, hold on. You were in a fight in the family square three days ago with Kristen. You were in a fight with Monica yesterday. You know, it might be you.

[Monica Padman]

That's nice.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I was like, you seem to be the common denominator this week.

[Monica Padman]

Well, it's also just an alchemy of everyone's things coming together.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. We have a lot of shared work stress right now, so that wasn't the greatest. Greatest. Yeah.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

But I truly believe, again, like, using the chain, you could totally look at the things. And repair is beautiful. I mean, repair could leave you closer than before.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

And to even just see a huge thing that John Gottman talks about is even just the startup, how the start of the conversation goes, is really going to dictate how it goes. You know, if you can start with, like, warmth and kindness.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I might need to adopt his. We interviewed him and he was so lovely, so great.

[Monica Padman]

A long time ago now I feel.

[Dax Shepard]

Like this would drive some. But he does it. And I also love it. Which is his behavioral thing. He does, I think, which reverse engineers his whole thinking is he takes notes while his wife's talking. Like it's getting heated. He's like, let me get my notepad. And then something about him taking. Do you remember that part?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Him writing down what she's saying. I guess something about that.

[Monica Padman]

Well, I think it detaches the primal brain. When you're writing it down sort of objectively, you're also half removed.

[Dax Shepard]

It's almost a hack. Right. Like the part of your brain that needs to be present to write maybe is just enough to pull you out of the amygdala or something.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

If college students write for three days about something upsetting that happened to them for 20 minutes, the first day, the most upsetting thing the second day, how it affected your life in the past, third day, how it's affecting you in the present. People that do that, 20 minutes, three times, 60 minutes, six months later, they have significant reductions in rumination and depression. And even for people that have ptsd, five days of specific therapeutic writing, written exposure therapy, significantly reduces ptsd. And this has, like, blown my mind. Memories during trauma are splintered, and then it helps you kind of store it properly and again removes you from the event and creates some working distance. Again, like, there's these things out there that a lot of people don't know about, and they think that they need to do these really expensive things or things that are very mysterious.

[Monica Padman]

I like what you said, that our bodies are a walking pharmacy. We have tools with us. We don't have to look outward. I mean, we can, but we can look inward too.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so now is the part of the interview where you give me free treatment. So nighttime rumination. So again, in the daytime, I'm pretty good. I got a pretty good handle on it, on my rumination. Is that accurate? Let's just say it's significantly less controllable in the middle of the night. I'll even actively be in it, going, 90%. I don't care about this in the morning. And that is so the case. So often I spend an hour and a half at 3am obsessing about something. I wake up in the morning and I'm like, I don't even understand why you were doing. You actually don't even care about that. What's happening? And what can I do? I think you're in a compromised state at three in the morning. You're not. Your most apt version.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

To quote a mentor of mine that taught this CBT for insomnia class, it's a problem to be awake when reason sleeps. An interesting thing in a study on rumination was when people are asked to talk about something that really upset them. If 50% of the people have the opportunity to listen to researchers, like, eavesdropping outside. Outside the door, those people stop ruminating. Like, literally having some sort of distraction. So some sort of distraction could help. If the book on tape on audible isn't doing it for you. Have you tried, like, a body scan? Body scan is. I could, like, literally send my breath to all my left toes and really focusing off the breath, reaching my toes.

[Dax Shepard]

Like, you inhale in and you imagine the breath traveling out of your lungs down your leg into your toe.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Yeah. And then you move up through your whole body.

[Monica Padman]

You, like, crown at the top, and.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

There'S progressive muscle relaxation where you tense and release. Can these things take a lot of your focus? And they're very sedating. Like, I am energized. And in trainings where you pair up and practice doing the body scan on each other, I'm like, snoring.

[Monica Padman]

I mean, I'm not A snorer. It's tedious too. You start at like the top of your head and then you move to like your right eye lid.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

It's super focused and it's super relaxing. And I also find I like to do the slow breathing, the five in, five out. And sometimes if I don't get to it during the day, I try to do it at night. And I can never do the 20 minute science 10 because I pass out probably in like seven minutes.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

So that's also an option. The slow breathing. There's actually like a light that projects that you could pace your breathing with a light. But there's a bunch of things. But I think you're doing all the right things to even just realize, like, you're an emotion mind. The content is relevant. Have you tried CBT for insomnia?

[Dax Shepard]

No.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

CBT for insomnia works as well as sleep medication for people that have a hard time falling asleep or staying asleep. And so you kind of calculate how many hours are you in bed? How many hours are you in bed?

[Dax Shepard]

I'm in bed, like trying to sleep or watching tv. And let's not get hung up on you. You're not supposed to watch TV in bed. But do you mean just supine in my bed?

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Let's do trying to sleep.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, it's eight hours.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

How many hours are you actually sleeping?

[Dax Shepard]

Fuck. Lately it's been rough. Probably six. Also, I'm in a weird zone, but seven probably.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Okay, so CBT for insomnia. And again, this is just like a short version. And there's apps for people that are listening, like cbt.

[Dax Shepard]

I.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

It's like a free VA app that works.

[Dax Shepard]

I gotta get that.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Yeah. So basically you pick your wake time. Like, what time do you want to wake up?

[Dax Shepard]

6:40.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

So you set your wake time and that does not change. There's no snooze. You pick your wake time and then you go to bed at about the same time that you've been typically averaging sleep. So let's say you've been sleeping six hours. You go to bed at 12:40, then you wake up at 6:40. And then that creates kind of a drive for sleep. And because you need a certain level of homeostatic for sleep. Because a lot of times what we do is like, oh my gosh, I couldn't fall asleep last night. Let's go to bed early tonight and then let's hit snooze.

[Dax Shepard]

That's what I do.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

And those two things are a problem because it's almost like jet Lag, you need to be primed for sleep. Then you get the six hours. Then once you're sleeping 90% of the time, you can add in 20 minutes after, like, several days. But I don't know if you've had this. But I've had this thing where I feel like, oh, I'm so tired. I didn't sleep well. And then I start canceling things. Like I cancel a gym class I'm supposed to go to in the morning, and then the whole whole day is like, set up for failure. Sleep is a huge buffer. I don't want to understate that. Especially if you're chronically not sleeping enough. Really hard to do any of the things if you're under sleeping. But it's like, okay, so if I get up when I feel underslept and start running at Barry's boot camp, I will have a better day and then sleep better the next night.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. That's my reservation. About people who do all these sleep monitor devices. I'm like, if you wake up and you know you've slept like shit, how are you not gonna have a terrible day? I don't understand the benefit of that.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Yeah, I ran the marathon a number of years ago, and the coach that I was working with, because I did it postpartum and I really needed a coach, he was like, just be prepared that you will not sleep that night because you have to start getting a Dodger stadium at like 4 in the morning. He's like, it's fine to not sleep. And I was like, how am I gonna do it? He's like, no one sleeps the night of the marathon. I'm like, if you could run a marathon on no sleep, like, you could kind of do most things with no sleep.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, you probably work out for 40 minutes on six hours or, like, be.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Functional at work or a person.

[Dax Shepard]

I do have that piece. That's why I say 640. That's non negotiable. I have to meditate, I have to journal, and I have to get my kids to school at a certain time so there's no snooze. Because then I'll miss the meditation or the journal. Then I might as well stay in bed all day because I'll have a miserable day. Oh, we have more control than we think. That's good.

[Monica Padman]

It's hopeful.

[Dax Shepard]

The headline.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

We have so much more control than we think. And peace of mind. Isn't life being easy? But it's knowing that you can count on yourself regardless of what shows up in Your life.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Stress reaction sets how to soothe your body and mind in minutes. And to your point about having something to reference, the book is incredibly efficient. It's a lot of bang for the buck. Every single page. There's something actionable almost on it. There's something concrete and real in something you can practice. And it's a very quick, easy way to get your head around all this.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Totally. And everything is rooted in science and these things are stackable and doable and I felt kind of weird, but like I taught these tools in a prison recently and I was thinking like, this is a really shitty situation. I really hope this will make a difference. But with a lot of these tools, you have a lot of options.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Great.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, Jenny, it's been so nice meeting you. You represent the alma mater wonderfully. Feather in the cap. Tall bruins.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, it's pretty good.

[Dax Shepard]

We wish you well and I hope everyone checks out. Stress resets.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Thank you guys.

[Dax Shepard]

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[Monica Padman]

I saw some of these items appear on a very, very trusted gift guide from a friend.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh really?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, the sweatpants are on there. People love the sweatpants and really great for travel.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm eyeing those sweatpants. Luxuriate in coziness without the luxury price tag. Go to quint.comdax for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q U-I-N-C-E.comdax to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.comdax we are supported by Best Better Help. The start of the new year brings you 365 blank pages waiting to be filled. What do you want your 2025 story to be? Maybe you're ready for a plot twist. Or maybe there's a part of your story you've been waiting to Revise. Think of therapy as your editorial partner, helping you write new chapters and become the author of your own life. I know. For me, I want 2025 to be filled with a lack of codependency.

[Monica Padman]

That's nice.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. If you want to start your therapy journey in 2025, join Better Help's over 5 million user users worldwide. BetterHelp is fully online, which helps make therapy affordable and convenient. You'll have access to a diverse network of more than 30,000 credentialed therapists with a wide range of specialties. And you can easily switch therapists anytime at no extra cost. Write your story with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.comdax today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelph e lp.comdax Acts we are supported by Liquid IV. New Year's resolutions are often about creating new rituals for yourself. Mine is sprinting this year.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, that's a good one. I'm starting to journal more Journaling.

[Dax Shepard]

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[Monica Padman]

I love electrolytes. We all know this. This is tried and true.

[Dax Shepard]

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[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Stay tuned for the fact check. It's where the party's at.

[Dax Shepard]

Any issues? What would we call that?

[Monica Padman]

Respiratory.

[Dax Shepard]

Respiratory issues.

[Monica Padman]

I've been masking outside.

[Dax Shepard]

Huh.

[Monica Padman]

So I've been fine. I've been. I mean, I've had headaches, but other than that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Headaches. Same.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

It's very reminiscent of COVID For me.

[Monica Padman]

It's so covety. Yeah. Yeah. I was just editing. Editing our last fact check. Which was.

[Dax Shepard]

Sounds naive. Probably.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. It was Wednesday morning and so much has happened since then.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

130,000 people have evacuated.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

There's something like 9,000 structures are decimated.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I have to imagine it's going to.

[Monica Padman]

Be the toll at the end of this.

[Dax Shepard]

You'd have to go back to the Chicago fires, probably.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, they already said it's eight times.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure. In today's dollars. Right. Because Chicago disappeared.

[Monica Padman]

Well, not dollars. Sorry. They're saying space.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, space. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

There's that. Also that picture going around of Manhattan. It's like all of Manhattan.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Is 14,000 acres.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, really?

[Monica Padman]

And like, we're at.

[Dax Shepard]

What.

[Monica Padman]

It's also crazy that I'm like, oh, my God. Yay. It's 3% contained. Like, it's Friday. And the Eaton Fire is 3% contained, which is the first time I've seen any containment on it. The Eaton fire, the one that's on the east side of the city, is at 13,956 acres, and Palisades is 20,000.

[Dax Shepard]

20,000 acres in the Palisades. We have people staying with us as we had in Covid. And then. Yeah. Went out yesterday with Delta in masks, and I was like, oh, this feels very familiar. There's, like, people living at the house.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm in a mask outside. Oh, my God. We're. We're back here.

[Monica Padman]

I know when I was pulling out the masks, I was like, oh, my God, I cannot believe I have to put this back on my face. The feeling are really wild around. I still don't have power.

[Dax Shepard]

Still don't have power.

[Monica Padman]

It's inconvenient. It's not bad compared to what's going on.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Yeah. We drove down Hillhurst where there was, like, 25 crews working on all those power lines with trees all over them. I'm presuming that's why yours is out.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, it's right at my intersection.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Monica Padman]

So. But they've been working through the night, last two nights, trying to get. Get it back.

[Dax Shepard]

There was an army there for sure.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. What feelings I had. There was a moment where, you know, they had evacuated like a quarter mile down the road when the Runyon Canyon fire was going. And I was like, okay, so the west side's completely on fire now. The center of the city's on fire and the east side's on fire. And I did start to open up my imagination to the degree where I was like, well, I would have said what has already happened would have been impossible like that for the Palisades to disappear. And then I was like, fuck, if the Palestine is going to disappear. I'm like, could LA disappear? Like, will we witness the end of LA as it previously existed?

[Monica Padman]

I know, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

That's never a thought I ever even considered was possible.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

But yeah, with winds blowing 70 miles an hour. Yeah, it's possible.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

But then you click into whatever role you have in your group. So, you know, then I go to. Yep. And Dresden was gone, and London was gone and Hiroshima was gone and Nagasaki was gone. And we are resilient and it'll be back. And that's who we are. And trying to put some light at the tunnel for everyone in the house. Yeah, you just go through all these. Everyone just clicks into whatever role they have, you know.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. It's been interesting for me because I'm by myself and normally I'm not. And it has been weird to.

[Dax Shepard]

You have been invited over.

[Monica Padman]

We should say, yes, I have. I'm by myself and so I have taken on all the roles.

[Dax Shepard]

Cheering yourself up, letting yourself get scared.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I have to be scared. Like, I can't wait for. I can't wait for somebody else to be like, okay, it's time to evacuate. Like, I have to decide. And I think normally I am in that sort of case. Like, I let. I'll let somebody else make that decision. I think they're better at making that decision than me. But what do I take? At first I was like, I don't even know what you're supposed to take. Like, the last time we talked, I was like, oh, I just. I just put my passport in my. I meditate so much also. That was crazy. I had one day left of seizure medication and then my pharmacy was down because of the power. So I was like, oh, my God, what am I gonna do about that? And anyway, but then I really thought about it and I was like, no, I gotta. Like, I took all these photographs I have. There's this little, like, drawing Delta made. I put that in there. And then that was. But I really was like, what matters here? For real? Like, I probably have to go, like, what really matters? And it was those things. And it's just such a. It's so heady to have to think about that. Like, what do you really need? What will you be like, did you see the thing John Mayer posted? I thought it was so well articulated.

[Dax Shepard]

No, I didn't see.

[Monica Padman]

It says. It says. Said this. He. He posted it.

[Dax Shepard]

Funny as people are saying things, I'm remembering that didn't even cross my mind. Like, I didn't. I didn't pack a passport.

[Monica Padman]

You gotta get your passport, Kristen Pro.

[Dax Shepard]

All I picked was. All I packed was my journals, which I think I made, by the way. My journals take up the full size away bag.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

So in the midst of all this, I also was like to see my journals in one spot. I was like, holy smokes, have I written a lot of. I had this weird little moment of.

[Monica Padman]

Like, you should take your dad's. Like, something of your dad's. Probably.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. There's a ton of stuff I should have packed, but I was just like, if.

[Monica Padman]

I mean, it's panicking written word.

[Dax Shepard]

I have the memories. Like, yeah. All the cute things my kids made me. They're all really, really important to me. But my. I have my kids. They're important to me. And so I kept telling the girls that. I'm like, we'll try to get everything you care about, but. But also, guys, this is it. Us four can go anywhere, and we have the thing we want, so.

[Monica Padman]

So John Mayer posted a picture of a picture, and he said, this is the most valuable thing I own. It's a folder of photos of my father spanning his life from being a baby, an educator, a husband, and a father. It's the only evidence of his life that will exist over time. These are the, quote, documents you read about people taking from their homes. When you hear some someone say they've lost everything in a fire, this is much of that everything, if not all of it. Those who say they'll be okay still have their folders and their albums. Those who are inconsolable have lost them. Just behind the immeasurable loss of life is the loss of the proof of life. I don't practice prayer, but tonight I will say one for everyone who no longer has these items. It's not about the art and the collectibles. It's the photos, the letters, the class rings, the eyeglasses, and the things we keep track to remind us that those we loved were here. May those who have lost so much find some semblance of hope and support from their family and friends. Stay safe. Look out for yourself and for one another. And trust that humanity and all it entails, though sometimes hard to see, is alive and well. This is truly devastating. And I do think that's right. Like, it's like, oh, all this stuff is just stuff. But it's so. It is more than stuff. It's evidence of life. Yeah, it's really intense. Um, there are weird things. Like, my friend was just saying that her friend's house is the only one standing. Like, how weird yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And this. I'm naturally trying to govern what stuff we talk about. Cause I know some stuff will. It'll anger you or it'll.

[Monica Padman]

Well, yeah. I mean, I don't want. I don't know how much you want to say, but I think we can. It's real. The reason I didn't come over. And I do really appreciate the offer, of course, but I think me and you are always the most compatible in these situations. We ignite each other's worst parts.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, we're so different. I mean, like.

[Monica Padman]

But other people are different that I think you. I don't know. And same for me with you, like, it's. There's something specific about us that we get really worked up when the other person doesn't align.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Monica Padman]

And. And so I wasn't bad.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, okay. Yeah, I think that's. I think that's a lot of. That's true. But I'm not bothered by. I don't mind that you're as scared as you are. I'm not. Right. Yeah. Like, I'm just naturally not. This is like. I'm like, oh, yeah. This is all I think about. This is like, totally the hypervigilance and all that. It's like, all right.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, it's here. It's time to get. It's time to get down. And so I'm, like, energized and I'm focused and I'm thinking. And I got all the hoses out, and I got the generator out, and I got the extra gas out, and I got the car filled up. And, like, you know, I'm engaged in all the things that I will do to help get through this thing. And so, yeah, this was a thing I wasn't as. Like, runs the risk of you being mad at me, but I was going to send them away, right? Like, I was going to send. Send Kristen and the girls to their dads. I'm definitely staying hosing the house down. There's no way. I'm not gonna do that. Like, I'm gonna. I got. I can sit in the middle of my yard. I'm not inside of a house burning. I can be on the outside of a house that's burning and not die. And I have a motorcycle to escape at any point. So I very much was never leaving. Regardless, in my mind, I was like, yeah, I'm gonna definitely get my family out of here, but I'm definitely staying with hoses.

[Monica Padman]

The Hansens did that. They hosed down their house when they. Cause there was one popped up in Studio City. Like right by a very suspicious one. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

That if that turns out. I mean, if it's not my condolences. If you had the audacity to try to fucking do some insurance fraud at the risk of setting up the rest of that area on fire, that's to me, you need to be in jail time for that.

[Monica Padman]

I agree. The Sunset one, that was really close to us, and then this one in Studio City, like, felt really weird because the winds were pretty much done.

[Dax Shepard]

They started inside their home too.

[Monica Padman]

Most importantly, the city one did. Yeah, I know, but even the Runyon Canyon one felt weird. It was like, what?

[Dax Shepard]

Well, you have two. There's two things happening.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And that's another layer of this we'll get to. There are arsonists in the city they've set fires in, you know, many times. Many of these fires we've had in LA are started by arsonists. And so you have arsonists that already exist and they've got the perfect opportunity. Exactly. Right. Then you have people who do. Do commit insurance fraud. They also pop up all the time. So you've like. There's easily two groups of bad actors in the mix of all this. Other.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I mean, there were looters.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, and that's what I wanted to add when I went. When. When it was a half mile from the house and it looked like, okay, it's coming here. I had gone up to the gas station at Sunset and. And, and. Doesn't matter. Very busy gas station. I wanted the truck to be full in case Belle had to drive it all the way to Vegas to Dad's or whatever. And I know the vibe. I've been in Detroit when the vibe's happening on Devil's Night. I know the vibe. I was at the gas station and I was like, oh, yeah, there's like 20 young men out. There's dudes on dirt bikes that are not street legal. Like, there's that air of like, they know too. No one's watching. There's a vibe of everyone that's supposed to be making sure there's law and order is distracted. And there was just this burble that I could feel from the other dudes. And I was like, okay, so we got the fire hazard. But also I'm now, for me, there's a significant, maybe even double digit percentage people are coming into the house today. Other elements are now gonna pop off because of all this other chaos.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, that tends to be the way it goes in these scenarios. So it's important to be Prepared for all of it. It's so annoying because in the holiday, the movie, the Holiday, there's this like cutesy moment where Jack Black is meeting Kate Winslet and like something that kind of gets in her eye and he picks it out of her eye and it's this like very rom comy moment. He's like Santa Anna. He's like explaining to her about the Santa Ana Anna's. And it's like, really cute, huh?

[Dax Shepard]

It's. You'll never be able to watch that part again.

[Monica Padman]

Watch that anymore. Can't watch it.

[Dax Shepard]

I will say the for better or worse in life, I'm experiencing it, but I'm also kind of always looking at it from a little bit to the side of it in the very anthropological way. And. And my current fascination with this whole thing and I've gotten to be a part of enough things now where I see this materialize. It's like we're all so different.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And thank God. Yeah, thank God. If they're all like me, everyone's gonna kill themselves. If they're all rendered immobile by fear, they're all gonna die. And it really doesn't require any talk or coordination. It just immediately burbles up. Like we had Jackie, Joe, Anna, Joy, Kristen, the girls, myself in the house. And everyone just innately files into the role that they are biologically destined to be. And it's just really on display in a situation like this. It's why ADHD folks are imperative. Someone's got to go out and find the new fruit tree. And it's why leaders, while insufferable at times, that's their time. And they reassure people. And then the people who are like, really scared, then at the other time in life, they're more compassionate and flexible and dialed in. And they're taking care of the needs, the emotional needs of this group of 100. And you just look at our. It's not an accident where we come in these archetypes. It's like we all have our different moments and the reaction's just so visceral, like whether you're wired what way or not. Like, I immediately text Ashton and said, are you guys up in Carpenter? Which was my assumption. The air is very clean up there. And he's like, absolutely not. I'm at my house with a hose.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I saw it. There was a video of him hosing.

[Dax Shepard]

He went to the Palisades and hosed other people's houses in the daytime. And then he's at his house. I hear what Charlie's doing. Everyone's doing. It's just really interesting. I find it incredibly interesting that we are all unique in this very complimentary way where we function as a group.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And it's. It's great. It's so great.

[Monica Padman]

It is also, it gets problematic when you only surround yourself with, like, one type of person or people exactly like you, which is easy to do, but it's. It is not. I mean, for many reasons, it is not best. Like, you need a diverse group. You know, obviously not. Not like, I mean, yes, racially, socioeconomically, skill wise, you need a diverse group.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, we're at an uncomfortable transition phase in civilization as humans, where it's like, we're almost there, and also we're not. It's like we can almost be our best benevolent self, but you still have Vladimir Putin on the planet, but still a real person on the planet. That's not OPER operating in the way we're all trying to evolve to. We're not there yet.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

We're not in the space age where we have, like, dominated all threats and can all just be one way close.

[Monica Padman]

I mean, if anything, this was so. It's like we do live in this city of sparkles and, and, yeah, money and status and fame, and it can burn down in a night. Like, it's, it's. It is humbling and it is.

[Dax Shepard]

And then even like the. The trajectory of crime, if you plot it from the 60s and 70s, you know, it's just gone like this. Yeah, but it's not gone. There's far less, thank God. But there's still quite a few people right now that are very willing to take an opportunity that's still a reality. We're not there yet. Know, it's like, yeah, we're in a transition and it's just. It's. I think it's weirdly almost harder. Like back when it was barbarism, it was just like, okay, well, we got a rule with a iron fist and you got to put down all this and we move away from that as we should, and we're getting somewhere, hopefully in the future where that's not even necessary. But it's like we're in this interesting phase where it's like, it's not necessary, but then all of a sudden it is necessary and then it isn't. It is.

[Monica Padman]

It's wild.

[Dax Shepard]

The crickets made it, though. That's good.

[Monica Padman]

That's good. Yeah, that part's good.

[Dax Shepard]

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. We are supported by Squarespace. If You've been to the armchair expert website. You've seen Squarespace in action. Wabi Wab made our website using Squarespace, the all in one website platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed. Read online. What I love about Squarespace is aside from the functionality, it's just so visually pleasing. And Rob was able to whip this up in no time with all the incredible templates that were available to him.

[Monica Padman]

And it looks very professional.

[Dax Shepard]

Squarespace just looks good. And Squarespace optimizes your website for every device, so it looks incredible whether users are on their computer, phone or tablet. No matter what type of site you want to build, Squarespace can help you make make it. Want to make an online store? Squarespace makes checkout seamless for your customers with simple but powerful payment tools. Want to sell exclusive content on your site? Squarespace has the option to add a paywall so you can sell memberships and courses or files that your customers can download like music or ebooks. Check out squarespace.com for a free trial and when you're ready to get started, go to squarespace.comdax to save 10% off your first first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace.com stacks to get started today.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, couple facts. Okay, so for Jenny. Laird Hamilton's creamer.

[Dax Shepard]

Tell me about Laird Hamilton's creamer.

[Monica Padman]

You asked if it was mushroom based. It is mushroom based, clean plant based, alternative to your dairy and sugar feet and sugar coffee creamers made with three she mushrooms.

[Dax Shepard]

Now I could be wrong on the timeline of this, but I do think I'm right. I think mushrooms, fungi was the first thing to sustain itself by eating other things.

[Monica Padman]

That sounds right.

[Dax Shepard]

Like prior to that you're just absorbing sun and everything's growing and they invent prevent consumption of other living beings. They're the first monsters.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, gross. And they look like it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And they taste good. I like them.

[Dax Shepard]

There was in Mexico City on the menu, it wasn't a mushroom cobbler, but by God, it was something like that. There was a dessert on the menu that was mushrooms first.

[Monica Padman]

Weird.

[Dax Shepard]

And you know Molly loves mushrooms.

[Monica Padman]

Oh.

[Dax Shepard]

And I said, how much do you love mushrooms? Enough to get this mushroom dessert. And she said, absolutely not.

[Monica Padman]

So I'm wondering if she had tried it.

[Dax Shepard]

Orders of the mushroom dessert.

[Monica Padman]

Weird. Well, it's in this creamer. Maybe it's.

[Dax Shepard]

The creamer's good. I've had, I've had Laird's creamer and it's quite good.

[Monica Padman]

Interesting. Okay, Bellevue, Bellevue came up again, which is interesting because it came up on Monday's episode with Josh Brolin. He said his aunt was at Bellevue. Yeah, it's a hospital in New York. Oldest public hospital.

[Dax Shepard]

Can I ask where you first heard it? Because I'm pretty sure where I first heard. First heard that Seinfeld. They would say it all the time.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, really?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, of course. It's a punchline in comedy a lot. They're gonna send someone to Bellevue.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

And I think obviously they were all in New York making that. Well, they were here making the show, but it's in New York and they're New Yorkers.

[Monica Padman]

Interesting. I. I don't know the first time I heard it, but Seinfeld wasn't my show.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Monica Padman]

I don't remember them saying it on Friends, but they should have.

[Dax Shepard]

They were in New York.

[Monica Padman]

Missed opportunity. Jim Carrey, snl. What is love? Is funny.

[Dax Shepard]

It's funny.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. So check that out on YouTube.

[Dax Shepard]

You double checked it?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I looked it up.

[Dax Shepard]

You checked that claim and it is a fact. It's funny.

[Monica Padman]

It's funny. It's on YouTube. You can check it out. We're also on YouTube.

[Dax Shepard]

We are on YouTube.

[Monica Padman]

Check us out on YouTube. We're there.

[Dax Shepard]

You wouldn't know, but we're there.

[Monica Padman]

People liked the clip.

[Dax Shepard]

The underwear clip.

[Monica Padman]

People really liked the underwear clip.

[Dax Shepard]

I like the underwear clip.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I really like watching when you and I start laughing in that deep, genuine where we can't really proceed, kind of. You get incapacitated. You can't move or talk. There's something so joyous about that.

[Monica Padman]

It is. It is fun.

[Dax Shepard]

Like you're leaned over this and I'm kind of just hiding from the camera. There's. It's just really joyous.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

What was the clip?

[Monica Padman]

People liked the fact check clip of me daydreaming.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my God. That was great.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, that was really funny.

[Dax Shepard]

People love that as well.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, that was a fun one. Oh, I think this is worth saying. When I was editing this, I. I sort of had the realization because my friend had hiccups at the time. Chronic hiccups, which he sometimes gets. And you've also had. And we've. We've talked about it. And someone sent you lollipops. What were they called again?

[Dax Shepard]

H. Hickey Pops. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I got them again at Christmas. Not nearly as long. Funny enough, that's when I got him the previous time. I might be allergic to them, man. Go too hard at Christmas and it gives me hiccups. And I was.

[Monica Padman]

That's when he had it.

[Dax Shepard]

Really?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I was scouring the house for the hickey pops, and I couldn't find them. I was desperate for a hickey pop right before Christmas.

[Monica Padman]

Well, yeah. I mean, the thing is, when you're around someone who's constantly hiccuping and it's. It's wild. Like, it's really kind of scary, and it won't stop. He was trying to do everything to get him to stop. And you'll do anything. You know, you didn't. This other person was like, you know, you have to, like, turn upside down and, like, do the drinking, the water. And he was like, okay. You know, he's like, you're trying everything. It's stupid. Like, none of these things really are going to work for you.

[Dax Shepard]

The ends of the earth to stop it.

[Monica Padman]

You will. But we don't do it for our brains. We could be doing, like, you'll do anything to stop hiccups, but anxiety and depression and these things that are rumination. Exactly. Rumination. These are the real taxing things. We're just like, I guess I just have this.

[Dax Shepard]

I'll have to live with it.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. And you don't have to. You can do these things, and it can help.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Body scans are great. Tara Brock. If you have wondery. If you have wondery. Plus, you heard us do these facts already. And we tried to get through a part that was very hard to get through with me saying, Tara.

[Dax Shepard]

It was kind of the underwear out of the pants again.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I was. But Tara Brock is a great. She has a great podcast and a lot of great meditations, and she walks you through body scans. And it's helpful. I like it.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. And that doesn't mean go to an MRI and get your body scan, because that's what I think of when I think of body scan.

[Monica Padman]

No, it's a mental body scan. Mental body scan before bed is good.

[Dax Shepard]

Focus on your follicles of your hair. Move down to the follicles of your eyebrows. What did you think of the. Did you hear the joke about Timothee Chalamet? Also, if I told you how obsessed I am with him now.

[Monica Padman]

No, I love him.

[Dax Shepard]

I love him.

[Monica Padman]

So did you get to talk to him?

[Dax Shepard]

No. And I wanted to so bad.

[Monica Padman]

You're talking about the Golden Globes.

[Dax Shepard]

The Golden Globes. He was there, and I had just watched Lady Bird and Little Women.

[Monica Padman]

I forgot he was in Lady Bird. Oh, my God. I forgot. What? Oh, yeah, yeah. I'm like, he's in the new Leonardo DiCaprio.

[Dax Shepard]

It took me back to, like, Johnny Depp. Where I was like, what? Who's this guy? Whoa. Yeah. There's something really powerful about Timothee Chalame. Am I saying it right?

[Monica Padman]

I generally may.

[Dax Shepard]

Chalamet.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. So, you know, he's in. Call me by your name.

[Dax Shepard]

I haven't seen that.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God. I need to see Revelation now that.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm on the Charlemagne train.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Chalamet.

[Dax Shepard]

Shalamay. I'll get his name one day.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

By the way, if I mix up your name and you're offended, I hope this bolsters well to the fact that, like, I'm obsessed with this kid and I can't say his name, but there was a joke about him at the.

[Monica Padman]

Globes about his mustache.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

So he has the most beautiful long eyelashes above his lip.

[Monica Padman]

I know.

[Dax Shepard]

And I was. I felt very defensive of him.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. So actually, I've been following.

[Dax Shepard]

It's a good joke. Let me just say it's a good joke.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. I've actually been wanting to talk about this, but obviously the fires. And it did not take. But I have a lot of thoughts.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, I'm. I would love to hear them about.

[Monica Padman]

These types of jokes.

[Dax Shepard]

Huh? Roasting in general.

[Monica Padman]

Roasting in general is one thing, and then this is adjacent.

[Dax Shepard]

But people who go to a roast have. Have agreed to go to a roast. Roast.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Yeah. But, like, why do we still do it? Why are we doing this? Why are we roasting? It is so. Well, it's hard to have this conversation because I sound, like, very Pollyanna or like, I'm. I'm. I'm so. I'm so against meanness.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I don't mean to come off like that, but, like, I do. It's true. Why be mean as a job?

[Dax Shepard]

I can see it from all the angles. Right. So one. One is the people making fun of the other people would say they're punching up.

[Monica Padman]

I know, I know.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. That's kind of like the blanket excuse. Well, you're punching up. You're not making fun of some disenfranchised person. You're making fun of a very rich movie star. Valid point.

[Monica Padman]

That's fine. Sure. Valid.

[Dax Shepard]

Totally valid. People really deeply enjoy watching their heroes have to get humbled a little bit by a joke. So for the audience, it's deeply satisfying. Like, they enjoy the hell out of it. At the end of the day, putting on this Entertainment show that's 26 hours long, and it's presumably for the audience that's watching, then it gets into this really fun thing, and I will not out this person. But I'm really good friends with someone that was nominated for one of the big awards and we had this long text exchange and he is like, I can't believe I go to these. I don't want to go anymore. The notion that the entire thing is to slake our ego's desire by making us compete so that ultimately someone else can sell a show to America for millions of dollars. That those people are smart enough to know that our egos will get us there to that room so that we can be made fun of. The Golden Globes is run by the Hollywood Forum press. It's these single people who have left their country to come to Hollywood to report on Hollywood goings ons back in their home country. And it's very few people. It's not like the academy awards where it's like thousands of people who are peers and experts in the trade. It of all the things it's funny, that's the one that broke through as being second only to the Oscars.

[Monica Padman]

I know. It's true.

[Dax Shepard]

And so my friend was like, lamenting of how tricky it is. Like, he doesn't want to be there. He thinks the whole thing's a scam. And then the people are making a ton of money on the vanity of these people and yet kind of has to do it because it helps promote the movie that he's in and potentially makes the movie more successful, which is what everyone would want. So you get this, like, really catch 22 situation. And I will say, and people will rightly accuse me of going, you're just saying this because you're left out of it. But I don't feel bad that way. The time for this has come and gone.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Yeah, I agree.

[Dax Shepard]

It feels very weird and outdated and tone deaf and weird. It's starting to feel weirder and weirder and weirder. I was like, what is going on right here? Now you get into the whole roasting thing. Because I was watching, I was like, I get it. Punching up.

[Monica Padman]

I like e. Glade. I like her.

[Dax Shepard]

She's great. She's really, really funny. I'll just say she's really, really funny. And I have no ill will towards her. My personal experience is I bump into Jesse Eisenberg getting a diet coke and he said, did you see we were in the New York Times yesterday, you and I. Apparently Nikki had two jokes about you and I that were too gnarly for ABC or whatever network it was on. So I sit down at my seat.

[Monica Padman]

You knew that while you were sitting there.

[Dax Shepard]

She had some joke about me that was too bad to be aired. So I'm watching the monologue going. I'm expecting there's some shot that there's a joke coming my way. Maybe the one she wanted got rejected, but maybe she retooled it or something. So I'm just kind of waiting to get blasted. And I'm, like, trying to think, like, okay, what's the ideal reaction to getting completely skewered? I'm. Now I'm meaner than her in my own head.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm like, she's gonna start saying that I'm only there because of Kristin. And I'm feeling it in all the worst blanks, like the loser boyfriend who's here. You know, the way she made fun of Benny Blanco.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

You know? And I'm like, oh, it's coming, it's coming. And I'm. I have to play a role where I think it's hilarious.

[Monica Padman]

Were you gonna laugh?

[Dax Shepard]

Because I. I don't. What else could you do?

[Monica Padman]

That's nice. No, some people don't.

[Dax Shepard]

They're like, well, I didn't get to see Timmy's reaction.

[Monica Padman]

He did it. He did a good job.

[Dax Shepard]

You got no option. You got. You gotta act like you.

[Monica Padman]

I think it's nice to play along, but I also, like, I thought that when Joe Coy did his thing, no one played along except Bradley. And I thought that was very big of him.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And I remember thinking, like, oh, well, good for him. He's playing along. No one else is doing this, But I think that's the only move. But I get it. You're like, why do I have to pretend this is funny? You're making fun of me.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. In front of everyone. Yeah. And I'm insecure like everyone else here. We're all insecure. This. You all think that we got secure somehow because we got invited. No. Everyone here is super insecure. And then I find on the other side of that, this great compassion for Nikki, which is like, we'll invite you if you. On everyone. And now if she wants to be on TV in that big of an audience and gain all her popularity, shit on all these people that she probably likes and would like to be endeared to and be friends with, just like all of us would be. So I'm like, everyone's losing in this scenario. I don't think Nikki only wants to be invited to the party if she's come, if her responsibilities come. Shit on everyone.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And I don't think anyone likes the being shit On.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

The audience is winning. I guess that's fair. Yeah. There's no way. They're not. That's fun. They're loving seeing the elite people get taken down a peg because we all enjoy that.

[Monica Padman]

I don't. I don't. I'm not. Again, not to sound like I'm above everyone, but I don't understand that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I cannot relate to being happy that. That bad things are happening, even to people who are obviously doing great and doing much better.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Why?

[Monica Padman]

Why would I want bad things to happen to people?

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

I don't get that.

[Dax Shepard]

And then I'm. And then I'm taking some personal inventory during all this. I mean, my head was on fire during the whole monologue. Right. Because again, I'm expecting something really embarrassing to come my way.

[Monica Padman]

Do you know what it was? I do.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I'll get to that part of it. So then I start taking a personal inventory. I go, hold on. How judgmental can you be of all this? Have you done this? I have. I've been on Conan. I had a movie coming out that I made that was up against Expendables, and I had a good time talking about that. Their fight scene scenes, they move less and less. And I'm thinking a. They would never hear this.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

It's objectively funny. Like, what I'm saying is funny is this action movie where everyone fights, like, within a one foot thing.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And so I've done it.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And I'm guilty of it. And then I go, okay, so what's some compassion I have for myself? Which is like, I'm scared. My movie's about to get blasted by these legends. Which it did. I don't know what else to do. Trying to be funny. Trying to make them happy. And. And I go, yeah, yeah. This is the whole situation. So I'm not in judgment of anyone. I just. I'm not looking forward to getting blasted.

[Monica Padman]

For all these people.

[Dax Shepard]

So the monologue ends, and somehow I made it out of it. Right. And so did Jesse Eisenberg. We were spared. And then Aaron, of all people, my best friend, who I love, who I've told, when you hear something terrible about me, don't tell me. But I understand, like, you feel this responsibility to your best friend. Like, you should know what. So I'm on Instagram and look at my dm and I see a clip of Nikki on Howard Stern the following day. And then Aaron says, rude. And then I wrote, I'm not gonna watch this. I bet it will just hurt my feelings.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And I leave it at that. And I decide I am not gonna watch it. And then in the comments, tons of people in the comments, like, do you see Nikki's joke about you? So I've made the decision. I'm not going to. But you have to know that I now, now I have created 10 or 12 jokes that it might be. And they're so hurtful.

[Monica Padman]

Listen, they're so. It's not that bad.

[Dax Shepard]

It's nothing. Well, listen, I ended up. I'm also telling Kristen this, right. I'm like, I guess, you know, she was bummed she didn't get to make the joke, so she went unstirred and made the joke. And I just hope I never see it. I even wrote that in some comments. No, I haven't seen that. And I hope never to see it.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And then last night, Kristen comes in, she goes, I watched the Nikki joke. It's nothing. All she said is, all these people in the room are trying to probably avoid you so you don't ask them to come on your podcast.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm like, oh my God, that's nothing. The things I thought of, I know that she could have said about me and were on the table and they're my. These very deep fears of people thinking I'm riding someone's coattails and stuff. That's. I filled in so much. So at the end of the day, it was good. I heard what it was, cuz I had assumed it was way, way worse.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

And all of it is this crazy ride we're all on for almost no reason at all.

[Monica Padman]

Unnecessary. I don't know. Before the show started, I was like, very skeptical of what the monologue was going to be. I don't like mean jokes for no reason. She. I thought, I mean, she is funny. Like, I'm not really funny. And there were jokes. Yeah, yeah. And there were a couple that I thought were so good. The two fingers up for baby girl. For me, the best one was, oh, celebrities can do anything except get the country to vote a certain way. Like, that was so good. Like, making fun of the group. The institution is good, but it's pulling.

[Dax Shepard]

Out and there's a fucking close up on the person that's about to get shit on.

[Monica Padman]

I see them, their eyes are so wide. Like, like Selena Gomez. Like, she was just like she. I felt, I was like, oh, this.

[Dax Shepard]

Is so why do you have to agree to that part of it? Like, hey, we got this award for you, but by the way, you're gonna have to probably be in A close up getting on to get this award. And. And I think that's why this friend is like, why are. Why on earth are we doing this?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I know.

[Dax Shepard]

Because they have turned to that. I think Gervais started it. Like, really.

[Monica Padman]

It did not used to be this crazy. But anyway, so I already was going in. Jess loves Nikki. Yeah. Yeah. He's been following her for years. He thinks she's great and was really excited to see it. And we know we had a lot of conversations before where this. It's triggering for me. I don't like it. And then she was on a Vogue podcast before she did. She went on and she said she doesn't like. It's. She can't really take the jokes about her. And I was like, yeah, what the. Like, what is this?

[Dax Shepard]

Who's winning?

[Monica Padman]

Anyway, so then she did it. We all watched it together. And I was kind of like, you know, again, I thought that. I thought, I think she is very talented. Yeah. But it was. That's. Overall, that's hard for me to watch. Minus those globe. More global jokes. And then the next day, someone sent it to me, the Howard thing. And we were already sort of in a thing. Me and you were already sort of in a thing that day.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Someone was like, did you see the joke about Dax? And I was like, what? And then I watched it, and I also was, like, so scared it was gonna be so mean.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. About my looks and why is she with me?

[Monica Padman]

I didn't know what it could be, but I was just like, this is gonna be bad. And then it wasn't. And then I too was like, oh, that's really not a big deal. Also, it's not true. And I said, oh, my God, I hope he never sees this, because he already doesn't ask anyone.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. I certainly would never ask anyone at a wardrobe.

[Monica Padman]

And I'm really fucking annoyed. Annoying. It's annoying that you don't like. It's to a fault. And I was like, if he sees this, he's never gonna ask anyone ever again to come on. And that's hard. That's bad for us.

[Dax Shepard]

And this goes to. By the way, this really goes to demonstrate for me personally, if you have an insecurity about something, it hurts so bad. Like, had she made fun of my looks and then I'm too ugly to be with Kristen, that would have really been hurtful. I didn't give a fuck about that. Because what did happen at the Golden Globes? The only time the podcast came up at the Golden Globes is three different. Different people I ran into. Each said, that's my favorite interview I've ever done in my life. All that really happened was people pulled me aside to say it was their favorite interview they've ever done. I was like, I felt great. So she could say anything she would want about that, and it doesn't bother me.

[Monica Padman]

I sent it to Jess and I said, cool, period. And he was like. And he's. And he was like, no, I get it. He was like, I get it. It's funny until it's you. And I was like, exactly. That's the whole thing. And anyway. But that was that, I guess. But I was very. I was perfectly aligned, very defensive. Maybe I'm extra sensitive to it because I think there's already too much hatred out there right now. Or in the last at least like, eight to 12 years.

[Dax Shepard]

You think it's symptomatic of this?

[Monica Padman]

I don't think it's symptomatic.

[Dax Shepard]

Larger diminishing of civility.

[Monica Padman]

I don't think it's symptomatic. I think it. It runs the risk of making it worse. I'm like, we're already. It's already bad. Like, don't add. Yeah. Don't add meanness. Like, it's. It's not a good time for that. It's. It's a time to add kindness. And I understand that's not, like, fun for an award show.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

But I just. I don't. It sucks out there. Like, people are so mean to each other. And even this with the fires. Like, people are saying such horrible stuff.

[Dax Shepard]

Are they.

[Monica Padman]

The rich people, they have other homes they can go to.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Fuck you.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh. I was thinking, like, yeah, if you're. I mean, I said it out loud when I was like, when. When there was the moment, I was like, wow, could the whole. The whole city completely be raised right now? I was like, yeah, there's some people.

[Monica Padman]

Down south that are excited that are.

[Dax Shepard]

Like, yeah, fudge that place.

[Monica Padman]

I think it's extreme to have these.

[Dax Shepard]

Thoughts, but it's like, the levels were happy when Covid. Deniers died of COVID That happened too, right?

[Monica Padman]

Exactly. But also, that's a. To me, that's slightly different because those are choices. These aren't choices. Like, I think. I mean, that's still.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, they go. You had to live in this fancy place. You could have lived somewhere that doesn't catch on fire every six months.

[Monica Padman]

But then there's hurricanes, there's this, there's that. But I Guess that's my whole point is maybe some people here would be like, well, hurricanes. Like, I guess I don't really care about Florida. But it's all bad. It's like, it's all bad. Everyone should have compassion and help, and most people do. I mean, I've gotten so many sweet, like, check ins, random check ins. And also, like, where can I donate? What do you know, like, on the ground here, what's going on, whatever. It's very kind mostly. But then there's just people who I'm just shocked by.

[Dax Shepard]

I have to mention, if you were like, to the letter of the law. Creationists believe in end of times Christian. This is so biblical.

[Monica Padman]

I know.

[Dax Shepard]

How are they not going? Like, other than a flood, this would be the next best thing.

[Monica Padman]

Well, I guess that was another thing. People were saying, like the globes joke about God zero. Which. That was hilarious. Like Mario Lopez. It was the count of. Of what? Who people had thanked.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, yeah, Moms.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. It was like, oh, yeah, Mario Lopez won. God zero.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Monica Padman]

And that was hilarious. And then people were like, see, that happened. And now it's like God's mad that no one thanked him at the moment.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, he's very sensitive. He's like me.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

You think he would not be sensitive. He's so powerful, but he's very sensitive, just like me. He's very vain. He's afraid people are gonna attack his looks, his social standing.

[Monica Padman]

Well, that. It's hard to be made fun of. It's hard to be made fun of. It just is.

[Dax Shepard]

Anyway, well, that was a. That was actually a very fun detour.

[Monica Padman]

That. Yeah, yeah, that's it for Jenny.

[Dax Shepard]

That was it for Jenny.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I do want to go out saying, like, I would not want anyone to hear all my opinions I just said. And have anything against Nikki Glazer. I'm, like, rooting for her and I.

[Monica Padman]

Think she's really, really talented of you. And. And I agreed.

[Dax Shepard]

I was unpunked. Like, it was like, let's get celebrities in a tricky situation and see if they act badly. And I was like, okay, well, this is the only job I'm ever gonna get and I'll take it.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

So I'm not really in judgment of anyone.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm just, I'm saying, for me, I was in deep fear that everything I. I'm afraid people think about me was confirmed. And then it wasn't.

[Monica Padman]

She's also. She's a swiftie. She's a major swifty.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, is she?

[Monica Padman]

She's been to like, she went to like a million of the shows.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, really?

[Monica Padman]

She's sober.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, she is. Oh, I didn't know that.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

We should maybe have her on and talk through this whole thing.

[Monica Padman]

I was like, like at first I.

[Dax Shepard]

Was like, I never on a rewarder.

[Monica Padman]

That's how I, when I saw it, I was like, guess who's not coming on our show ever.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. But then now I feel like the bigger version of me would be like to have her on, try to have a, a sincere conversation about it.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, well, we could. Anyway. All right.

[Dax Shepard]

All right. Love you.

[Monica Padman]

Love you.

[Dax Shepard]

Foreignchair expert on the Wondry App, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short [e-mail] survey survey.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

New year, new resolutions.

[Dax Shepard]

And this year on the Best Idea yet podcast, we're revealing the untold origin stories of the products you're obsessed with. And we promise you have never heard these before.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Ever wonder how the iconic Reese's Peanut.

[Dax Shepard]

Butter cup was invented?

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Cuz it was by accident.

[Dax Shepard]

HB Reese, a former frog salesman. True story. Stumbled upon the idea after accidentally burning.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

A batch of peanuts. Classic. Proving that sometimes our best ideas arise.

[Dax Shepard]

From what seem like our biggest mistakes. And Jack, did you know there's a.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Scientific explanation why humans crave that surprising combo of peanut butter and chocolate?

[Dax Shepard]

I didn't, but it sounds delicious.

[Monica Padman]

It is delicious.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

So if you're looking to get inspired.

[Dax Shepard]

And creative this year, tune in to.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

The best idea yet. You can find us on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dax Shepard]

And if you're looking for more podcasts to help you start this year off right, check out New Year New Me mindset on the Wondery App.

[Dr. Jenny Tates]

Who knows your next great idea could be an accident that you burned.

[Dax Shepard]

This is Nick and this is Jack and we'll see you on the best idea yet.