Kimberley Quinlan (on anxiety and self-compassion)

Summary

Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard: Episode Summary – Kimberly Quinlan on Anxiety and Self-Compassion

Hosted by Armchair Umbrella, this episode features a deep and insightful conversation with Kimberly Quinlan, a licensed marriage and family therapist, public speaker, podcaster, and founder of CBT School. Together with co-host Monica Padman, Dax Shepard explores the intricate dynamics of anxiety disorders, self-compassion, and their intersection with eating disorders and OCD.

---

1. Introduction to Kimberly Quinlan

The episode opens with Dax Shepard and Monica Padman introducing Kimberly Quinlan, highlighting her extensive experience in the mental health field. Shepard mentions the importance of integrity and character, noting that after receiving feedback about their previous discussions on OCD, they sought out experts like Quinlan to provide accurate and compassionate insights.

Quote:

Dax Shepard [09:00]: "We invited her on and she has so much integrity. She said, you really want to talk to my friend Allegra? Yes. She's awesome."

---

2. Conducting the Self-Compassion Test

Kimberly introduces the Self-Compassion Scale, a tool used to measure an individual's level of self-compassion. Shepard and Padman participate, answering a series of questions designed to assess how they treat themselves in times of failure, stress, and self-criticism.

Quote:

Kimberly Quinlan [11:08]: "We're doing the short form. The long form is 24. We're doing the 12, but research has shown that the 12 question is as effective as the 24, so we're golden."

Both hosts score in the lower category of self-compassion, prompting a discussion on the implications of these results.

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3. Understanding Self-Compassion

Quinlan explains self-compassion as treating oneself with the same kindness and understanding that one would offer to a loved one. She emphasizes that self-compassion is not about letting oneself off the hook but rather about approaching personal challenges with kindness instead of harsh self-judgment.

Quote:

Kimberly Quinlan [22:27]: "What's the other way? Well, it's simply treating yourself like you would treat a loved one if they were in that situation."

---

4. The Intersection of Eating Disorders and OCD

The conversation delves into the relationship between eating disorders and Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (OCD). Quinlan shares her personal experience with an eating disorder, drawing parallels between the compulsive behaviors seen in eating disorders and those in OCD. She discusses how both conditions involve repetitive and controlling behaviors aimed at reducing anxiety.

Quote:

Kimberly Quinlan [38:45]: "Eating disorders and OCD have a very big crossover. Some people even now are sort of speculating that they're very much the same thing."

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5. The Impact of Diet Culture

Dax and Monica explore how societal pressures and diet culture contribute to the prevalence of eating disorders. Quinlan highlights the obsession with "clean" or pure eating, leading to conditions like orthorexia—a subcategory of eating disorders focused on food purity.

Quote:

Kimberly Quinlan [37:03]: "It's an obsession with the purity of food or clean food, the cleanliness of food, or the contamination of food."

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6. Supporting Others with Eating Disorders

Quinlan provides guidance on how to support individuals struggling with eating disorders. She advises approaching the subject with compassion and understanding, avoiding judgmental statements, and instead asking supportive questions that encourage open dialogue.

Quote:

Kimberly Quinlan [44:36]: "All we can do is come from a place of loving kindness. So for me it would be, hey, I'm noticing this is happening. How is that working for you? Is there other things going on for you? How can I support you?"

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7. Differentiating Anxiety Disorders

The discussion distinguishes between general anxiety and anxiety disorders. Quinlan clarifies that while anxiety is a natural and necessary response to danger, anxiety disorders are characterized by excessive and persistent worry that interferes with daily functioning.

Quote:

Kimberly Quinlan [61:43]: "Anxiety isn’t actually bad. Everybody needs it... The disordered piece is when that response impacts your functioning and your ability to enjoy your day."

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8. Self-Compassion in Practice

Quinlan shares practical strategies for cultivating self-compassion. She introduces the concept of the "compassion sandwich," where self-kindness is integrated before and after facing fears or challenges. This approach helps individuals remain kind to themselves while still tackling difficult tasks.

Quote:

Kimberly Quinlan [29:40]: "The meat of the work is facing your fears. But the bread is the before and after of compassion when you face those fears."

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9. Addressing Panic and Social Anxiety

The conversation shifts to specific anxiety disorders such as panic disorder and social anxiety. Quinlan explains that social anxiety is not merely shyness but a profound fear of being judged by others. She discusses techniques like mindfulness and allowing panic attacks to occur without resistance to build mastery over them.

Quote:

Kimberly Quinlan [73:23]: "The best thing you can do is let it happen... Each time you panic, you'll build mastery over panic. The more you let it come, the smaller it gets."

---

10. Conclusion and Reflections

Towards the end of the episode, Dax and Monica reflect on their personal journeys with self-compassion and mental health. They acknowledge the complexity of these issues and the importance of continuous self-awareness and compassion in overcoming personal challenges.

Quote:

Dax Shepard [83:56]: "We have to be compassionate to each other... But I think it's possible there's some symbiosis."

Final Thoughts: The episode underscores the significance of self-compassion in managing anxiety and related disorders. It highlights the cyclical nature of self-criticism and motivation, advocating for a kinder, more understanding approach to oneself as a pathway to mental well-being and personal growth.

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Notable Quotes:

• Kimberly Quinlan [10:32]: "When something painful happens, I try to take a balanced view of the situation."
• Dax Shepard [22:03]: "Best seller. Congrats."
• Kimberly Quinlan [24:59]: "The act of kindness is the reflection, but doing it in a way that is kind."
• Dax Shepard [58:18]: "The only window into my awareness of my self, abuse and flagellation..."
• Kimberly Quinlan [84:16]: "Marriage is not easy. It's mostly just the decision to stay married."

---

Resources Mentioned:

• Kimberly Quinlan’s Podcast: Anxiety Toolkit
• Books:
  • Self-Compassion Workbook for OCD
  • Upcoming: Self-Compassion Workbook for Everyone

Follow Kimberly Quinlan:

• Podcast: Anxiety Toolkit
• Platform: CBT School

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This summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights shared by Kimberly Quinlan, Dax Shepard, and Monica Padman, offering valuable perspectives on anxiety, self-compassion, and their interrelated challenges.

Transcript

[Dax Shepard]

Wondry plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now. Join Wondry plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts, or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. Experts on Expert. I'm Dan Rather and I'm joined by Lily Padmon.

[Monica Padman]

Hello.

[Dax Shepard]

Hello.

[Monica Padman]

What if it was Padmon?

[Dax Shepard]

I'm sure somewhere it is.

[Monica Padman]

Well, a lot of people think it's.

[Dax Shepard]

Hari doesn't like your name.

[Monica Padman]

He. Yeah, we have a neighbor who's Indian and he has a pretty big beef with my name.

[Dax Shepard]

He's also, we gotta add, he's one of the smartest human beings I've ever met in my life. He has like a double doctorate in finance and something else crazy and I think physics or something.

[Monica Padman]

He was a professor at ucla, right?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

He's awesome. But. And we like talking, but every now and then he'll just be like. Like, I just can't.

[Dax Shepard]

It's not right.

[Monica Padman]

Can't. With your name. He was.

[Dax Shepard]

He wants to know what it really was, basically.

[Monica Padman]

No, he knows what it was. And it was. Should I say it?

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

It was Pudman.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, that's.

[Monica Padman]

That's that reaction, that very American reaction.

[Dax Shepard]

No, I just like that. Puddin. Say it again.

[Monica Padman]

Pudman.

[Dax Shepard]

Pudman.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. And it's hard. It's hard.

[Dax Shepard]

No, it's great.

[Monica Padman]

Well, it is hard.

[Dax Shepard]

It sounds like alliteration.

[Monica Padman]

Sure. But a lot of. I think people. You know, there's many Padmes. Because it does get shortened, obviously. And my grandfather shortened it. Not my dad, but. And I think Pari thinks my dad did. And I kept saying, this is my grandfather. And he said, yeah, but why wouldn't it be Padma? He wanted it to be Padma.

[Dax Shepard]

That would be. That's a compromise he could live with.

[Monica Padman]

But Padma's a first name.

[Dax Shepard]

We know a Padma. We interviewed him.

[Monica Padman]

That's right. Padma Lakshmi.

[Dax Shepard]

Go check it out in the archives. Listen. Go to the archives. I implore everyone to go to the archives and just dabble. You only gotta listen to a couple minutes of an episode and do that three or four times a week. Okay. Our guest today is Kimberly Quinlan. And Kimberly, as we'll explain in the episode, but I think it's fun to know, even going into it, is that when we first got criticism for how we were talking about OCD warranted, we were wrong.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And I looked up people that were well versed in this space. She's who I found. We invited her on and she has so much integrity. She said, you really want to talk to my friend Allegra? Yes. She's awesome.

[Monica Padman]

That was such a great episode. It's in the archives.

[Dax Shepard]

Check it out. Even a couple minutes. So it's.

[Monica Padman]

Can you listen to the whole thing of that one? That one's so good.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, absolutely. Also, you know what I was thinking, this is totally off basis, but we had Brody and Kristen on way before the fun, the social phenomena.

[Monica Padman]

I know. I like being ahead.

[Dax Shepard]

This is the show, but I want people now to. I feel like. I feel like if we released it right now, it would be so exciting.

[Monica Padman]

Re release.

[Dax Shepard]

I think we should do a re. Or just post about it.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Or just if you're watching this, go back. Kimberly is a licensed marriage and family therapist, a public speaker, a podcast host, and she is the founder of CBT School and online psychoeducation platform where she offers support and research based education products to those who cannot access correct care. Her podcast, which is great, is called you'd Anxiety Toolkit and she covers. The topics are endless.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, this was fun. We got into a lot of interesting.

[Dax Shepard]

Topics and we took a test, which we love. Taking a test. Yeah, we live for tests. Please enjoy. Kimberly Quinlan. We are supported by Audible. We know you love audio content. Thanks for listening to the show. But if your ears are craving more audio, Audible is the place to go. I probably, in truth spend more time on Audible than any other place, any other app. Yeah, I'm listening every night for an hour before bed. There's more, more to imagine when you listen. Whether you're searching for the latest bestsellers and new releases or you want to catch up on a classic title, you can find it all in the Audible app. And as an Audible member, you choose one title a month to keep from their entire catalog.

[Monica Padman]

What are you listening to now?

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I'm just finishing the Worlds I See by Feife Lee. It's so good in moving and I love it so much. I'm. I'm sad it's ending now listen. New members can try Audible for free for 30 days. Visit audible.comdax or text DAX to 500500 that's audible.comdax or text Dax to 500. 500. The new Apple Watch Series 10 is here.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

It has the biggest display ever.

[Dax Shepard]

It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Making it even more comfortable on your wrist. And it's the fastest charging Apple watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. Introducing the all new Apple Watch Series 10, now available for the first time in Glossy, jet black, aluminum compared to previous generation. IPhone XS or later. Required charge time and actual results will vary.

[Dax Shepard]

This is kind of a newer look for you.

[Monica Padman]

A polo shirt.

[Dax Shepard]

Pink. Polo.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Matching socks. I see no socks. Striped gray. Okay, everyone's accounted for.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Outfits have been checked.

[Dax Shepard]

We're gonna take a test today.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Which I'm so excited about.

[Monica Padman]

Me too.

[Dax Shepard]

Did Monty already tell you we like to do these in the fact check?

[Kimberly Quinlan]

I know. Yep.

[Monica Padman]

And she was saying when we took blood and stuff that that was fun.

[Dax Shepard]

So we've done like the personality test. We've done the Enneagram.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

We've done the sorting. Ha. For Potter Hogwarts. Have you done the Sorting Hat? You haven't?

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Well, only at the Warner Bros. Oh.

[Monica Padman]

You put the hat on on the tour.

[Dax Shepard]

What were you assigned?

[Kimberly Quinlan]

I think I would say, oh, my son's gonna be so mad. Because actually I don't remember.

[Monica Padman]

Oh my God.

[Dax Shepard]

That's how I'm probably.

[Monica Padman]

Then you're probably a Hufflepuff. Oh, I'm just gonna be. A lot of people get really mad when I do that, but. So now I think it's funny.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

You have to forgive me. Cause I've started the Harry Potter thing in the last month.

[Dax Shepard]

Maybe with your child?

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

You have a son?

[Kimberly Quinlan]

I do.

[Dax Shepard]

How old?

[Kimberly Quinlan]

He's nine.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, he's nine. We have a nine year old too.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

He's late for the Harry Potter game. But we're in it now. It's okay.

[Dax Shepard]

It feels right.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. That's a good age.

[Dax Shepard]

Our 9 year old's already done it. But that's only because we have an 11 year old.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Yeah, well, I have a 13 year old and she. No.

[Dax Shepard]

Didn't care.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

How about Swift?

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Oh, yeah, we just started that. Only recently did we start that too.

[Dax Shepard]

Because if she didn't get drawn into Potter or Taylor Swift. Now I'm thinking this should be on the dsm.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

This must be some kind of problem. Yeah.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

I was just telling how difficult it is to be a parent. A therapist.

[Dax Shepard]

Does it make it harder or easier?

[Kimberly Quinlan]

So much harder.

[Dax Shepard]

You think so? Tell me why.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Well, number one, parenting is hard, period.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, it's no joke.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

I was saying no one told me it was going to be this hard. And I'm a therapist.

[Dax Shepard]

What?

[Kimberly Quinlan]

I think it's a little harder because you have read the dsm.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

And I think it's also harder because I feel that internal pressure that I'm supposed to raise these totally emotionally regular.

[Dax Shepard]

It would reflect badly on you if you turned out some maladaptive.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

What kind of therapist can't create puzz? Children.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Which there's no such thing.

[Dax Shepard]

And there's already. So you've got like triple whammy pressure. Cause you've got just being a mom. So the requirements that you're perfect are already through the roof. Yeah. And then you're supposed to have some upper hand with your knowledge set. Yeah, yeah, I get that because I feel myself doing it. You know, they'll exhibit a behavior for 35 seconds, you know, like, oh, geez, I think they're a narcissist. Oh, geez. I think they have borderline personality. Borderline personality. Desire. Oh, no. I do that as a non therapist, but I'm pretty good at going like, bullshit.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Oh, yeah. Well, I think that's the beauty is if you're really clued into it, you get to just let them be humans. But I think that is what makes it hard because you're like, it's their journey. They get to do it. That's where I think I have to pump the brakes.

[Dax Shepard]

And divorcing or parsing out your own ego and identity in it is so complicated because we're all inclined to project onto strangers. Now you add in, well, this person is half me, so I have half a right to actually project. You really get caught in that.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

For sure. It's a constant self check, but also one of the coolest growth opportunities of my life.

[Dax Shepard]

Thousand percent. Because you have to then recognize, oh, right, this is my issue. And then you go, well, we don't really have our arms fully around this issue, do we? Because we're projecting this onto a little.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Person and the story isn't finished yet.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so let's start with our introduction, because I think it's kind of fun because I just kind of want to applaud your character in your integrity, which is. We had gotten some criticism for how we were talking about OC and then so I just kind of did a perfunctory search of who's popular in the space, and I came up with your name. And then I reached out to you on Instagram and I invited you on to talk about ocd, and you were like, yeah, that sounds great. And then at some point, I guess you probably discovered that Allegra was one of the critical voices, turned over your opportunity to be here to her.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Yeah. And she did a great job.

[Monica Padman]

She sure did.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

She needed to do that. She's got such life experience. So she nailed it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, it was awesome. I'm really happy. We just had an expert on them be. I'm really happy it was her. And so I just think it's really cool that. I mean, I'm not presuming you wanted to be on the show so bad, but I know if Jimmy Fallon called me to be on and I was like, you know, I think John Krasinski's probably better as a guest for you. Yeah, I think that shows some integrity.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Well, I love Allegra and she does a lot of advocacy work. And so we spoke about it and yeah, it was absolutely the right thing. I truly believe my turn will happen when it's right. And here I am.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And so you're a marriage and family therapist, but additionally you do have expertise in other areas as well. Yes, OCD being one of them.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Anxiety disorders.

[Dax Shepard]

Anxiety disorders.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

The overarching work that I do is around self compassion. It's woven into everything I do. So I see very severe anxiety disorders. But all of my personal work and the work I want to put out into the world is around that.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. And so I'm also going to exploit you and make you talk about eating disorders a bit because I would say tied with ocd, we get a lot of people requesting we have an.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Well, I had an eating disorder. I'm your ghost.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay, wonderful. So I would love to dip into that a little bit as well.

[Monica Padman]

When are we taking the test? Now or later?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, let's do that.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Would you like to start with that?

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Well, sure, I can do anything.

[Monica Padman]

I think we should jump into the test.

[Dax Shepard]

It would be fun to take the time.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Let me sort of preface this. So there are two ways in which we can capture someone's degree of self compassion. We could just talk about it and sort of hear your inner thinking. And I could make a subjective assumption. Or I can do what we're going to do today, which is called the self compassion scale. We're doing the short form. The long form is 24. We're doing the 12, but research has shown that the 12 question is as effective as the 24, so we're golden.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, great.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

So what I'm going to do is I'm going to ask you both questions. You're going to give me a number out of one to five. One is almost never and five is almost always. And I'll document it. And then I'll just need like three minutes to calculate. You're going to.

[Monica Padman]

She has a calculator.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

I see.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my goodness. Look on her phone.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Look at this.

[Monica Padman]

No, it's my kids.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Look how cute. It is. All right. What I would encourage you to do is don't overthink this.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, good luck.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

This is not a diagnosis. And we're today talking about self compassion, which is around treating yourself kindly. We're not here to beat yourself up about how much you beat yourself up.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, but we love to do that.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

This is a non judgment zone.

[Dax Shepard]

You're taking away our hobby.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

I know.

[Dax Shepard]

What will I do with my mental health?

[Kimberly Quinlan]

All right, so here's question number one. When I fail at something important to me, I become consumed by feelings of inadequacy. So, Dax, five being almost always and one being almost never.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, great. So what we never have is the person administering the questions present.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Speaking of.

[Dax Shepard]

Because here's. I think the first mental hurdle for.

[Monica Padman]

Me after you say don't overthink historically.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Or today, I would prefer you give me sort of a range in the last month.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

And if you prefer to read things. My husband is a reader of questions.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm dyslexic, so this is ideal for me.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Don't overthink it. But it is funny because I've changed a lot over time.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Oh, no, this is not a life scale. So this is more like within the last week to month. How you doing?

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Great. So one is never. Five is always.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Five is almost always, and almost never is one. When I fail at something important to me, I become consumed by feelings of inadequacy.

[Dax Shepard]

You want to go first? Ladies first.

[Monica Padman]

There you go.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Tall people first. I'm going to go three.

[Monica Padman]

Five.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Okay. Number two. I try to be understanding and patient towards those aspects of my personality I don't like. One is almost never. Five is almost always.

[Monica Padman]

One, two.

[Dax Shepard]

This test has already made me start bleeding, Rob. Can we see that?

[Monica Padman]

What do you mean?

[Dax Shepard]

I just randomly started bleeding?

[Monica Padman]

Oh, gosh, no.

[Dax Shepard]

I cut my finger cutting my hair.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

I've never actually had that happen before.

[Dax Shepard]

I took the bandaid off and it was fine and now it just started.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

There's no question for that. 1. All right, number three. When something painful happens, I try to take a balanced view of the situation.

[Dax Shepard]

4.

[Monica Padman]

I try. Try means. Try is a good word.

[Dax Shepard]

Also situations operative.

[Monica Padman]

Four.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Okay, number four. When I'm feeling down, I tend to feel like most other people are probably happier than I am.

[Monica Padman]

One.

[Dax Shepard]

That's almost never.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I don't think.

[Dax Shepard]

Same, same.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Okay. I try to see my failings as a part of the human condition.

[Dax Shepard]

Try to. Do I try to or do I.

[Monica Padman]

Your own personal failings. Not everyone.

[Dax Shepard]

No, I'M gonna go. I never do that, whatever that is.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

1.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I'm a piece of shit. And here it is again.

[Monica Padman]

Two.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Okay. When I'm going through a very hard time, I give myself the caring and tenderness I need.

[Dax Shepard]

One.

[Monica Padman]

Three.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

We're halfway.

[Dax Shepard]

But hold on. I'm loving this.

[Monica Padman]

Me, too.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I have zero.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

I can bring out the 24 if you need me.

[Dax Shepard]

We want the 48 pack.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Okay. When something upsets me, I try to keep my emotions in balance.

[Dax Shepard]

God.

[Monica Padman]

Try.

[Dax Shepard]

5.

[Monica Padman]

4.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

When I fail at something that's important to me, I tend to feel alone in my failure.

[Monica Padman]

5.

[Dax Shepard]

5.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

When I'm feeling down, I tend to obsess and fixate on everything that's wrong.

[Dax Shepard]

Five.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Five.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

When I feel inadequate in some way, I tend to remind myself that feelings of inadequacy are shared by most people.

[Monica Padman]

1.

[Dax Shepard]

2.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

I'm disapproving and judgmental about my own flaws and inadequacies.

[Dax Shepard]

Five.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Five.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

I'm intolerant and impatient towards those aspects of my personality I don't like.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm tolerant or intolerant.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Intolerant and impatient.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Four. Yeah. Four.

[Dax Shepard]

I just thought of a very funny thing. What if, like, every time one of us went first, the other one changed it? I know. If I go three and you go three, I go two.

[Monica Padman]

Actually, I'm more two. It also is fun when we do, because normally we're doing you or me.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. And you're usually administering it.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I like to administer. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

She's an administrator at heart.

[Monica Padman]

Did you try to evaluate mine, too?

[Dax Shepard]

Sure.

[Monica Padman]

Did you think I.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, what's fun is I was realizing, as well as I know you, there are some things I don't know about you.

[Monica Padman]

Sure.

[Dax Shepard]

Were you thinking that at all, or you were like, all right.

[Monica Padman]

Nailed everyone. You seemed right.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, you seemed right. But there were a couple where it was like, I wouldn't have had a guess.

[Monica Padman]

Interesting.

[Dax Shepard]

Like, are other people having a great time around me?

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't really know how you process that.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I assume everyone's miserable in general. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I just don't think about the way other people are feeling when I'm doing anything. Really? Other people in the world that aren't a part of it.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Do you have any questions before I rate your scales?

[Dax Shepard]

I know good students have questions, so I'm trying to think of one, but I don't have one.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

No, we're good. All right, let's do this. Okay. How do you guys think he went?

[Monica Padman]

Let's hear more about the metric or maybe the spectrum. Yeah.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

So it's actually out of one to five. Just like you scale. Someone who measures low in self compassion is between 1 and 2.49. Someone who is moderate is 2.5 to 3.5. And someone who is high in self compassion is 3.51 to 5.

[Dax Shepard]

I would just like to say I think I'm not very compassionate to myself.

[Monica Padman]

I think I'm moderate.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

So both of you actually came out with exactly the same score. Whoa. Maybe that's why this works, but in different areas. So there are six components that we break this down to. So you both got the response for today. It could be different, but right now you're at 2.25 each, which puts you both in the low category. In the upper low.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Cusp.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Again, this is just for reflection and sort of to see. Hmm, that's interesting. Let's take a look at why. So if we looked at self kindness, because one of the subscales here is self kindness. How kind you are to yourself. Monica, you actually were in the moderate.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

But Dax, you were in the lower.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, well, congratulations.

[Monica Padman]

Thanks.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Yeah, so that's how kind you are to yourself in the face of adversity. We're not talking about how kind you are when you kick butt, Right? It's not about that. It's sort of more about how do you sit by your side when things go to shit. So the second is self judgment. How much do you judge yourself for the highs and the lows of life? You both got 1.5.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so we really nailed that one, which is low.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

The cool thing about all this is once you know, then you know what to work on. Then you know where you might first be like, okay, I'm going to work on this one little area. Or you might choose not to. Some people are like, I'm cool. I'm good just to know it, and I'm good to go. The next one is the common humanity. And that's what you guys were talking about before. When you're suffering, how do you see yourself as this being a normal part of the human condition? How do you see that it's a human thing to suffer. It's a human thing to go through hard things. All humans fail. Humans mess up some days. That's what common humanity is around. And you both got 1.5.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I'm not saying how we're going to get up to 2.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

This is where you go, well, the next step is isolation. So when things are hard, how much do you isolate? How do you think? It's just you're the only one and that no one else is having this problem, that you're the only quote unquote loser in the area. You both did really well. You're in moderate there.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, right, that makes sense.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

So here we go, we're on the upswing. The next part is mindful. And you both scored very well in mindfulness. That's being aware of your suffering, being in touch with, oh, I'm having a hard time, how am I doing? What's going on? So Dax, you got 4.5 and Monica, you got 4.

[Dax Shepard]

Wow.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

This is the one I really love the most. And I find this is one of the ones that can really help us to understand someone. The last part is over identification, which is when you're going through something difficult. How much do you make it about yourself? How do you put it on yourself as an identity? Like if you make a mistake that you're someone who's a total loser.

[Dax Shepard]

Flawless, bad, broken.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Yeah, it's very shame related. And so this one, Dax, you got two and Monica, you got one for that one.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, that tracks. I don't like making mistakes.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

So that's your results. We can also see both sides of this. You're very successful. Often people rely on a lot of these pieces to drive them into success. And sometimes it works.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm so glad you're bringing this up. I would be interested in how many people have a similar story, which is without that, what would be the moment? Motivation. Right.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

I see a lot of very, very successful people in the industry here in LA or very, very high in the tech field. They're at the top of their game and they have relied on a lot of the things that you guys were rating for that got them to the top. But at some point it starts to not work anymore and things start to break down around them or they're in relation with people where it's creating conflict.

[Dax Shepard]

Or you start questioning, is it worth it? Yeah, right, like great, I got all the cash and prizes, whistles and I'm not very happy. So it's like existential.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Yeah. And it's a really hard experience, especially here in la. Everyone around you, when you're famous, everyone loves you, but you don't. That's a really conflicting place to live. And so often when people come to me, they're usually having panic attacks, got some other anxiety disorder or a mood disorder like depression. And then we start to look at these things. Served you in some pretty tricky situations. And can we come up with some alternative solutions that will still keep you in the game but don't give you those consequences?

[Dax Shepard]

I have long thought about could I get to that same goal without the same catalyst? And it's such a leap of faith.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Well, here's the thing is research shows that self criticism and self judgment, which you guys do a lot of it seems, actually has higher rates of procrastination, reduced levels of motivation, higher rates of burnout, end up creating less productivity. So it makes sense you would be like, oh, you piece of shit, you've got to do this. Makes you sit down. So you go, okay, it must be working. I'll keep going. But with too much use of that, it actually creates all these negative consequences which then we go, well, it must be me. It's me that I'm not getting my book written. I've written a book, one of the hardest things I've ever done in my entire career.

[Dax Shepard]

Best seller. Congrats.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

In my field, not like a New York Times bestseller, but in my field, yes. But you beat yourself up. So then when you're beating yourself up, you start to procrastinate, you start to feel like crap and you don't want to write. And then you go, well, I'm a piece of shit because I can't write. And then it's a cycle. We've got to dispel the myths of these behaviors and see that there's another way. What is it?

[Dax Shepard]

What is the other way?

[Kimberly Quinlan]

What's the other way? Well, it's simply treating yourself like you would treat a loved one if they were in that situation.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm glad you're saying that. The only window into my awareness of my self, abuse and flagellation is simply being an aa, which is. It occurred to me at one point, I have listened to, at this point, thousands of men share a character defect that they have or even an action that came out of that character defect. And I go like, yeah, you were scared and you stole. Yeah, you blank and you cheated. Yes. And you punched somebody. Like I can listen to anyone else's thing and have total understanding and compassion and go like, yeah, that was a situation. This happened. But if I'm guilty of the same thing, that's just not what I think. But luckily, I have had the experience of regularly hearing people say stuff that I also suffer from and having total acceptance.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

And when you said that to your friend, he didn't get caught up in shame. He felt a sense of relief of like, I'm not alone. Dax can see the good in me.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm not being excommunicated from.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

And therefore he is more likely to go and do good things for himself. And it's the same for us. Now the thing to remember here is it's easier said than done. If you've beaten yourself up for your whole life, talking to yourself like your best friend might feel like a massive leap. Some people go, gross, I don't want to talk to myself. That is not how I talk to myself. But what we can then start to think of is what would feel good to you.

[Monica Padman]

I guess for me the fear is if I'm not hard on myself, then I'm not being reflective. You know what I mean?

[Dax Shepard]

I know exactly what you're saying. Because as you were saying it, I was thinking why I can say that to another person, not me. Which is to do that to me would be like granting permission for it to continue. Oh, I guess this isn't a big deal if we're not beating ourselves up over it. I get is a paradox because I don't think the stranger needs more abuse. They've clearly given themselves enough.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Yeah. This is why I love talking about this, this exact conundrum. Because here's the thing. Self compassion is not letting yourself off the hook. I treat anxiety disorder. My job is to help people face their worst fear. You have panic disorder and you don't want to fly an airplane. My job is to get you on an airplane. Whether I fly with you or you do it alone. That's my job. You're afraid of needles. My job is to get you to go and have needles. The work here is that not reflecting isn't an act of kindness. The act of kindness is the reflection, but doing it in a way that is kind. You can still do the hard thing, but do it kindly.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

When I play soccer or volleyball or anything with my oldest daughter, every time she makes a mistake, sorry. And I go, love. You don't have to say sorry. You haven't done anything to me. You just know now to do it differently. She can practice and doesn't have to feel guilty when she's failing.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

No. And that is the work. Let's say we don't do something well. Let's say I totally screw this up today.

[Dax Shepard]

Uh huh. Fingers crossed. That would be so exciting.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

The self compassionate act would be to reflect. How did it go? What went well? What didn't go well? What could I have done differently? We still would reflect, but we would do it from a place of it's okay that we make Mistakes. And what can we learn from this? That's the piece.

[Dax Shepard]

Depersonalizing it I imagine would be helpful, which is like an interview needs this. Did I have my information? Did I have blank not Am I a lazy piece of shit?

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

But then it gets into like, did they like me? It gets very muddy there. Cause that's not anything that you have any control over.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Right? But a kind act is to give permission to people to think what they like to think. I fully give you permission to have your thoughts about me. That's okay. And then my responsibility, all that I have control over is how I tend to those emotions I have to feel. So self compassion also isn't like happy feelings all day long and it's unicorns and it's roses. It's also going, okay, they may or may not have liked me. Maybe you straight up said, I don't like you, Kimberly, and I get to have my feelings, you get to have yours. And my job is to be gentle with the feelings I have about you not liking me. Then everyone gets to have their experience. And I'm not afraid of any emotion because I've had them all and they're all safe.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, I have a very specific thing that was just recent and I want to know if this was adaptive or maladaptive. So there was a long, long phase in my life where I would go on a talk show and I want to be great. And then on my ride home, if I didn't hit whatever mark, you know, I would spin out about that and I'd be very upset. I just did a week of press in New York. By the way, I'm going to add, my wife is now left to go do a week of press and I was like sharing with her, I don't know if this is compartmentalization or compassion. I was like, yeah, I'm going to go do these shows. They're going to be what they're going to be. I'm really not even going to know about it if they're terrible. I likely won't even see anyone that saw it. I just like unplugged from the results of it. I'm like, I'm just going to go do it. And it doesn't matter. I'm still a dad, you know, I still have a great business. My life is totally fine whether I shit the bet on those or not. I didn't really do any post game evaluation after it and it felt great. And so I don't know if I am using the tools you're talking about. Or if I just decided to ignore.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

The results, you here would rate high. In all of those self kindness, you reduce the self judgment. There was a common humanity there of like humans get to make mistakes. They get to just show up and be themselves. That's common humanity. Like we're all in this together. Somebody else is sitting across from you interviewing you. Also getting to be a human being that has good and bad days. You didn't isolate yourself. You talked to your partner about it and you normalized. This is a big deal. You were mindful, you didn't over identify that this means that I'm a good person or a bad person. You nailed it.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, okay, okay. Good.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

More of that.

[Dax Shepard]

In the wake of that, I was like, God, you could really probably apply that to everything.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

I would. You're in this great opportunity where you're like, I have all the good things for those who are living, listening and they don't have all the good things. And it is a big deal. I would still use the same skills. I actually had to practice this this morning because you guys are incredible. This is a big deal. But me not using the skills that we're talking about today is only going to make me feel bad about this. So for my experience of today, it can be paradoxical in that this is a big deal and I still get to do the skills and be kind and let it be and allow it to be imperfect. Those two opposing things can happen at the same time.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, you're now bringing up something that's probably quite interesting, which is I think most of us tend to do this work, post something, and it sounds like you did it preemptively.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

I'm lucky. I've studied this for a long time and I'm not always great at it either. But yes, the work that I have people practice, particularly if you have a lot of anxiety. I always kind of talk about it like a sandwich. I call it a compassion sandwich, which I know is not that cool. But the meat of the work is facing your fears. But the bread is the before and after of compassion when you face those fears. So you be gentle and you use these skills before you practice compassion during. And then afterwards, a big piece of this work is celebrating that you did a hard thing.

[Dax Shepard]

Ah, yeah, yeah, forget how you did. You just did a hard thing.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

You did a hard thing at the end of the day. And then you can say, what did I learn? What didn't go well? What did? What would I do differently? But not from a place of like you idiot, but more of like, okay, interesting. Note to self, with more reps of this, I'll get better.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, now there's a part of having kids that's really helpful and wonderful. Right. Because when you're watching your own children, I keep trying to tell them this. What I'm impressed by is not whether you were good or bad in the play. I'm so blown away. You put yourself out there, you know, what you're proud of with your kids, and it's, I don't give a shit if they're number one at anything. I'm just blown away when they put themselves out there.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare. We are supported by the new holiday action comedy Red 1. The mission to save Christmas is on. Dwayne Johnson and Chris Evans star in Red One from Jake Kasdan, who I love. As you know, director of Jumanji. Welcome to the jungle. After Santa Claus, codename redone, played by J.K. simmons, is kidnapped. The North Pole's head of security, played by Dwayne. Dwayne Johnson, must team up with the world's most infamous bounty hunter, played by Chris Evans, in a globetrotting, action packed mission to save Christmas. This is Christmas fun like you've never seen before. See Red 1 only in theaters November 15th. Get tickets [e-mail] we are supported by Audible. I love Audible. I've been listening to so much Audible lately because I've been taking these naps a lot. I always like to listen to Audible to go to sleep. Sleep now. Look. It's a special feeling when you encounter a story that truly sparks your imagination. Whether it's imagining new worlds and possibilities or discovering new ways of thinking, there's more to imagine when you listen. That's why we love listening to the amazing titles they have on Audible. Right now I'm listening to WIM hof.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. And you are really into it. You were explaining a lot of the pieces to me.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. And I lost you a little bit.

[Monica Padman]

I'm listening to Intermezzo by Sally Rooney.

[Dax Shepard]

Is it great?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, it's great.

[Dax Shepard]

Audible truly has the best selection of audiobooks, without exception. From bestsellers to new releases to exclusive Audible originals, there's always something to discover. As an Audible member, you choose one title a month to keep from their entire catalog. New members can try audible free for 30 days. Visit audible.comdax or text DAX to 500. 500, that's audible.comdax or text Dax to 505. We are supported by Sonos. Oh, boy, oh, boy. Sonos is my favorite product in my whole life. I'm listening to it all day long. I'm in the gym listening to Sonos. I'm at home, listen, watching TV with my Sonos soundbar. I mean, it's.

[Monica Padman]

It really changes the whole experience of listening.

[Dax Shepard]

Look, you're listening to the podcast right now, but how are you listening if you're not listening on a Sonos speaker? You don't even know how amazing the dulcet tones of our voices can sound. Sonos is known for having the absolute best sound quality of any speaker on the market. You've got to hear it. And as good as Sonos can make us sound, imagine listening to Pink Floyd on a Sonos speaker or hearing the booming dramatic music in a great action film on a Sonos soundbar. Game changing Another incredible feature of Sonos, their integrated sound system makes it easy to play anything in any room.

[Monica Padman]

I love that it's easy to use.

[Dax Shepard]

Too, so you can keep your dance party going throughout your whole house. Visit sonos.comdax to learn more. That's sonos.com/stacks we are supported by Peloton. Are you tired of the same old workout routine or struggling to find motivation at this busy time of year? It's time to check out Peloton.

[Monica Padman]

Peloton is so great. We all know this. Also. Not only is it a good workout, which I did at our friend Molly's house.

[Dax Shepard]

Uhuh.

[Monica Padman]

It's a great workout, but it's also like pretty. It's sleek.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, it is. It's a good looking piece.

[Monica Padman]

Very aesthetically pleasing and you know that matters to me.

[Dax Shepard]

I know. I agree. Well, Peloton has a variety of training programs. They got pilates, 5k, 10k, half and full marathon programs, strength training, boot camps. There's so many ways to challenge yourself.

[Monica Padman]

It's so helpful to have a set plan. It takes the guesswork out. It just makes it easier to get started on your fitness journey.

[Dax Shepard]

It's great. And there's so many options on Peloton so you can find a workout that gives you exactly what you're looking for.

[Monica Padman]

Kind of workout are you feeling today?

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I got to tell you, I was recently advised by a doctor to incorporate some more blast, some high intensity blasts that you get this special. He said, look at sprinters, right? Why do they look like that? Because they're in this really high heart rate for some period of time. It's really beneficial. So I'm looking to go hard.

[Monica Padman]

Hard. Cool. Well, whatever you're looking for, Peloton has the workout for you and they have world class fitness instructors to push you to the next level.

[Dax Shepard]

Find your push, find your power with [e-mail] if you don't feel like it's too personal, I would love to know in practice, what does your pre interview look like? Do you have mantras? Do you write anything? Is it meditation? Is it too private to you?

[Kimberly Quinlan]

No, I'm an open book. There's nothing I don't talk about. For me, it's. In Australia, we call it a seesaw. I think America, you call it a teeter totter.

[Dax Shepard]

I think we do all the.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

It's a seesaw. My purpose, my motto for life is to love as hard as I can. That's my whole goal in life. So I teeter totter between I'm just gonna love on you guys and pour love into you, and then on the other side, also pour love into me. So it's this sort of like, I hope that I get to love on you guys and then maybe someone listening will feel a sense of, aha. That would be great. And then like you talked about before, where's the anxiety in my body? Okay. It's in my chest.

[Dax Shepard]

All right.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

It's okay that it's there. It's not dangerous. Let it be there. It may or may not interrupt your session with them, but that's okay. It is a lot of talking to myself, but it's more. I always think of it like, have you ever held a baby chicken boy?

[Monica Padman]

I don't think so.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't think so.

[Monica Padman]

Very fragile.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Oh, you got it. You haven't lived until you.

[Dax Shepard]

This is great advice. Get your hands on a baby. I did.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

That's all I have to say.

[Dax Shepard]

Unexpected.

[Monica Padman]

It's just their bones are so small.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Well, that's the thing.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

It's like holding yourself with a baby chicken. You wouldn't grab them and crush them. Cause they're fragile, they're important, they matter. You wouldn't want to hurt. Hurt them. And so it's a little bit of like, I'm the baby chicken. It's scary. This is a scary thing. But it's a lot of that teeter tottering.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. So since your main thrust is self compassion, do you see it as somewhat of a universal tool for all these many different. They're called disorders. Right. I'm not being pejorative by saying disorders. Yeah. Do you see that as a thread that kind of links all these things? Cause I was reading an LA Times article that you were a part which was orthorexia. Orthorexia. One of the women who suffered from it, I found fascinating that she started as OCD as a child. So ding, ding, ding me, then went into addiction and then got sober, and then in sobriety became orthorexic, which is.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

That's a subtype of an eating disorder. It's sort of an obsession with the purity of food or clean food, the cleanliness of food, or the contamination of food. So it's about eliminating food groups, having it being all pure or all organic. Maybe spending a lot of time with preoccupation on preparing the foods or having it be as uncooked as possible.

[Dax Shepard]

Raw, non gmo, paleo, Any one of these very popular sugar is dairy free.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

It looks different for each person, but that's what orthorexia is. It's also now better diagnosed under what we call avoidant and restrictive food intake disorder. It's big. Even here in la, it's big because wherever there's a culture where there's sort of like a morality around food, like it's a good food or a bad food or clean or it's not clean, that's where it can get really out of control.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I've heard different religion professors talk about this as falling so beautifully into a religion because it does have this underlying good, evil, bad, impure, pure. The woman in the article found herself crying uncontrollably in the produce section of the grocery store, debating between chard and kale.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, wow.

[Dax Shepard]

Like, which one was more pure? What should she be getting? And so you think of that taken to its nth degree. Whereas I guess, like all addictions or disorders, it's such a spectrum. I'm on this spectrum. Like, I relate to this. I don't see it having caused any wreckage yet in my life. And I'm certainly not in the grocery store crying yet. And I'm not isolated from it. But I can relate to the evaluation.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Yeah, me too.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Is that just coincidental that she was OCD then addict?

[Kimberly Quinlan]

They're very related. Eating disorders and OCD have a very big crossover. Some people even now are sort of speculating that they're very much the same thing. I had an eating disorder. I treat obsessive compulsive disorder. I always felt like my eating disorder was a form of ocd. It looked and felt exactly like my clients in that there was an obsession and a fear that was intolerable. And it was so overwhelming that I had to engage in these very repetitive constrictive controlling behaviors to reduce or eliminate that discomfort. And then I got stuck in a cycle, so. Okay, that worked. I tend to manage my anxiety with that. I'll just do more of that. And all of a sudden, you've eliminated food groups. You're malnourished. Everybody in your family is worried about you. You haven't got the energy to function. It can ruin your life.

[Dax Shepard]

I have to imagine it leads to isolation as well. The same way addiction does.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

It's like, well, you're not to meet anyone for dinner at this point. You're not having anyone over for dinner. You can't go to someone's house for dinner. And you're by yourself. No eating your egg whites and feta. That's my current thing. Egg white feta and elk.

[Monica Padman]

The elk piece is so disturbing.

[Dax Shepard]

I think so I know why that one's triggering. Tell me, is it because Joe Rogan eats a lot of elk?

[Monica Padman]

Oh, no. I didn't know that.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh. There is a mildly political aspect to the diet stuff, which is fascinating.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Is it like ground?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's kind of a magic. Here we go. You ready? It's magic and pure. It's super, super high protein and low fat. But it doesn't taste low fat. It's got a robust taste yet. It's insane amount of protein.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Like lamb, maybe.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, love lamb, too. Bison, you know, anything really high, high protein and kind of low fat that tastes good.

[Monica Padman]

I love, I guess, to me, from the outside, because. Yeah. Dax eats very specifically and he has psoriatic arthritis. So there's a reason for how it started. But I do think it's gotten a little.

[Dax Shepard]

So that's in the article. A lot of people that have this clean pur. To explain it to others and get the heat off of them, they'll claim to have a bunch of allergies they don't have.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So, like, if you had read that, you might go like, Jesus Christ, this psoriatic arthritis thing bullshit, right?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

This.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

You telling us that you don't have that condition.

[Dax Shepard]

Had. And I've had surgeries. I guess I could have gone that far. I've had, like, joints lock up and fuse and have to get them corrected. But it's like anything else.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Yeah, it gets sneaky.

[Dax Shepard]

It's very sneaky. Drinking works like the drug worked for a long, long time before it stopped working. And so even I can experience, like, oh, wow, I did cut gluten out of my thing and I feel better. Oh, that was a good positive reward. Blueprint of the brain.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Yeah. But to talk about that article you asked about the addiction piece, I don't often see people, not that this isn't a case for some people, but not often do I see someone who is active in their addiction with orthorexia because they kind of bounce against each other. But post addiction recovery where they're like, okay, I'm going to clean up my life life, I'm going to stop using. I'm also going to start eating well, I'm going to start exercising. And then like you're talking about, then it gets a little slippery into well, this is another way in which I can control my life and I can feel powerful and I can manage my emotions by being preoccupied on this thing. I see that much more than I would with an active addiction.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I'm a big fan of the word regulation. Like you figured out another way to regulate your internal state with something external which is always kind of destined for implosion at some point. But and I think this is a bit self compassionate of myself. So like I accept I'm an addict. That is how this boy operates. If I get a good result from something, I will repeat it until it's dead. I've accepted that's who I am. And so instead of me trying to fight that that's who I am. I just have to aim this crazy laser beam at things that don't really create wreckage for me. So yes, on the outside you could go, if you look at how I exercise and eat right, there's clearly something going on there. I would agree. But for me it's like it hasn't led to secrecy, shame, isolation. My family doesn't care, my friends don't care. There's no downside to it. So like how do you feel in general about embracing your this way and just trying to figure out an outlet for that that doesn't lead to the shame and the guilt?

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Oh, 100%. The most common and best self compassion question is, does this help the long term me? Is this good for me? Is this what I need to be able to make the next step, whatever that looks like the next step today or the next step in 10 years, whatever that might be. So if it's working for you and it's working for your relationships and it's not causing you distress, it's effective and if it's effective, go for it. What's right for one person might not be right for the other person. I always love watching the Olympics and being like, what does that person think Versus what does this person think? Because their self talk is going to be different. And what works for one person mightn't work for the other. And so everyone gets to pick. You see, a lot of athletes have a lot of neuroses, a lot of compulsions and routines and superstitions. And again, we would say it's working for them. Who am I to tell somebody what's right or wrong for them? Is it working for them in their goal or is it working against them? And that's the question.

[Dax Shepard]

And yeah, and are they miserable in the pursuit of this or are they happy?

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Some of them are. I've heard interviews where they'll say, I don't even like this sport. This is the goal I set for myself and I'll do whatever I have to and then I'll reassess. And so I think that's where we all get to give them permission to do what they want. Doesn't mean it's healthy, right?

[Monica Padman]

I have a question about eating disorders really quick, before we get fully off of that. What are you supposed to do if you notice that in somebody else?

[Kimberly Quinlan]

We know for one thing that telling them to do something different probably doesn't work. Here's a question. If you had an eating disorder, what would you want them to say to you?

[Monica Padman]

Well, I guess the goal, if you're in that is getting away with it would be my guess. So I think anyone saying anything would be a problem probably.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Well, all we can do is come from a place of loving kindness. So for me it would be, hey, I'm noticing abc. I'm noticing the bison or elk, because.

[Dax Shepard]

You'Re buying a lot of bison.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

I'm noticing this is happening. How is that working for you? Is there other things going on for you? How can I support you? Because that's where they're going to be receptive to your help. Whereas if I came in and was like, you're eating too much bison and I don't like it and I'm worried about you and it's getting compulsive and that's me assuming my ideas for what's right for you. No one wants to hear that. So it's asking. Coming from a place of care and genuine interest in their wellness and having a conversation, I could hear it in.

[Dax Shepard]

Just the way you were saying. I was almost waiting to hear you also say, like, how do you feel on this? You know, like, how's it going?

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Yeah, the thing about eating disorders, I had anorexia and my husband used to say, you know, I used to love when your body looked this way compared to this way. It meant nothing. Of course, it didn't even seep in 1% of my body. In my mind I was like, that sounds terrifying. That's all I could think of is, oh, that's okay for you to think, but in my mind I would be a complete disgusting person. You could have told me that all day.

[Dax Shepard]

You're right. Because if someone said to me, you look much better with boogers hanging out of your nose, I'm like, well, great, you're a one off. That's nuts. I know for sure that doesn't look good. And for you it's as real as boogers in your nose that you would be ex white.

[Monica Padman]

It's just not about anyone else. It is how you are viewing yourself. So you wouldn't even say like it's a one off. You'd just be like, I.

[Dax Shepard]

It'd be easy to reject.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Most often, eating disorders are partially about your body but also nothing to do with your body anyway. It's about how you feel, your identity. There's so many other components to it. In some cases there were times where I'm like, yeah, probably I would look better, but that would require me to do things I'm not willing to do.

[Dax Shepard]

You'd be unhappy doing the things I was terrified.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

It was horrible.

[Dax Shepard]

The pop culture thing you hear a lot is that, yeah, eating disorders are about control. Are they anti correlated to moment when you feel totally out of control?

[Kimberly Quinlan]

We don't know. Yes, that is very much a core theme in eating disorder recovery is your relationship with control. But there's so many other impactful pieces of it. Whether you have bdd, body dysmorphic disorder, because if that's the case, that needs to be treated and looked at as well. Is there any trauma or an abuse in your family? Your relationship with your own emotions and your body is a big piece. How you actually can be in your body is a big piece of it as well. Societal impact of people being praised for being th their whole life. There's so many things that need to be looked at in eating disorder recovery.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, I have been defensive. I find that the eating disorder commenters, and I don't know what percentage they make up of the community of people with eating disorders who are engaged in the fight, know they have an eating disorder, are in recovery. I would imagine if we have someone on the show mention a diet or we did a show that was two different friends. One was 317, one was 225. They were racing to 270 for cash in prizes. Get lots of. You're perpetuating diet culture. The reason I'm defensive and angry by that very predictable common outcome is like, I'm an addict. I'm not on people's social media pages who are enjoying drinking and doing drugs in the way they do and saying, you're promoting a disease. I have a disease. They don't. It's not their responsibility to be making sure they don't trigger my disease. Like, that is all on me. So my issue is like all the people that are screaming that diet culture is being perpetuated when I just think there's no marketing camp like the booze marketing campaign. But I'm not mad at those people. 70% of people are drinking. Fine. So help me understand why that's happening and how could I be more compassionate?

[Kimberly Quinlan]

I totally understand what you're saying, by the way. I think that the piece there, and I think it's often more placed on females is there is a very heavy emphasis where women are told the way their body should look. And I think there's a rebellion against that. And I think that's what it is. Now, that doesn't mean I would go on and post on social media about it. I tend to prefer to advocate one on one than to advocate in the comment section. But I think that a lot of the time people are trying to advocate for the fact that when I was a teenager, I don't know how old you are, but being stick thin was really cool. Having no butt and no breasts were the thing you were going for. And I think people were really pissed off at that because now, you know, bodies should be curvy and the Kardashians and that's the newer body thing. But back then I think people are mad at the expectations that are put on people and therefore they're expressing that on the Internet.

[Dax Shepard]

That's a key. The way you just phrased it. And I agree, that is what people are saying. And obviously we are motivated by our culture and our society. But put on you versus I put it on myself. I hear a lot of comments. We're going to get gendered. I have this longstanding opinion where it's like, women aren't responding to what men men want. Women are responding to what women consume and want and men are responding to what men consume and want. So, like, I'm getting really muscly. If you pulled women, that's not even the desired state. But I'm a boy trying to be a man and I'm responding to whatever all the men are saying is most mentally so. Like when you say stick thin was popular, I acknowledge that there's like the Kate Moss trajectory, but I don't believe that was driven by men. They're not buying fashion magazines. They don't even know these supermodels exist. That's not the industry. It's a female driven industry as there's a male driven supplement industry. And so this notion of we have to look this way to get a mate, I think it lacks a little responsibility. I think we gotta look this way to be accepted by our group, which is female.

[Monica Padman]

Well, all people.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, Boys are doing boys.

[Monica Padman]

No, no, no. It's not even like I need to look this way to get a mate. It's like I need to look this way to be attractive in general, to be worthy and to be worthy and lovable. Not lovable necessarily from a partner, just in the.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure.

[Monica Padman]

So it's not really about like, well, men want this and women want this. It's just society is telling us that we need to look this way to be accepted.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

And I think it depends on the person. There's a lot of people in the eating disorder community that aren't angry about it too. We hear different perspectives and the loud, the creaky, squeaky wheel squeeze. But I think too, from my clients and what I do understand is there are people where their set point is. Set point is like where you naturally are when you're not on a diet, where your body lands. Their body isn't in that body. And they're advocating for bodies being beautiful in whatever set point that they're in. And I think that is a huge piece we're talking about, is celebrating bodies in any way we can. And I think it's also a part of recovery. Sometimes people in different stages of recovery become advocates for someone who had an eating disorder. I don't talk about eating disorders that much. In my advocacy on my podcast, in my. I'm at a different stage in my recovery to where I have this other mission. And I'm not saying that those people will move on from their mission. Maybe they're on it. But I know for me there was a stage where I was really advocating and now it's not as important.

[Dax Shepard]

I so relate to that. The first five years I was sober, I could have told you anybody in show business that was either sober or in an active addiction. And now I just don't know. But, yeah, I was like, I needed to know who was this and who was that and a lot of people get an impulse in their first year of sobriety to write a book about it. You feel very motivated. I've just experienced. So my next thing is, I'm going to write a book about it. I'm going to proselytize and be vigilant about this.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

That's it. With any condition, once you've been through it and you've seen how much it's decimated your life, you're mad, and you're mad at whoever and wherever that could have stemmed from. You know, some people who aren't on the Internet might be in therapy, like, so mad at their mom or so mad at their dad, and that's where they're really focusing. So I think usually when people are mad, it's a response from how much suffering they had.

[Dax Shepard]

You and I are now both in a very interesting position scientifically, which is these GLP1 drugs are going to impact both of these things, addiction and eating disorders, in very interesting ways. Potentially unforeseeable for a while. Let me just say, anecdotally, what I've noticed is a lot of people that I know that are, on those who are normal, moderate drinkers, stop drinking. Like, they're just not even interested in it anymore. Yeah. I'm like, well, that's very interesting. In our book of aa, the big Book, it says science hasn't yet given us a cure, which opens the door to maybe one day it will. And so that's just really interesting.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

It is.

[Dax Shepard]

How is it impacting your line of work?

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Not a lot.

[Dax Shepard]

It's not.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

No. I mean, there are some, of course, who take it, but again, the work that I do is very much focused on management of anxiety, the practice of compassion. I basically teach people how to face their fear. That's what I do for a living.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I do wonder, though, with the anxiety piece, it does seem, and for everyone we've heard, to just quiet the chatter, whether it's food chatter or whatever. I do wonder how it would affect people's anxiety, just in that way of, like, the rumination or the not able to, like, turn something off or even ocd, when it's these impulses that you can't shut off. I wonder if it would quiet that. I don't know.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

I don't know either.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, none of us know. We don't know yet. It's kind of a fascinating time, though.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, it is in many ways, but. So how did you get into recovery? What pushed you?

[Kimberly Quinlan]

I live in America, but I am Australian. I'M American, too.

[Dax Shepard]

What age were you when you moved here?

[Kimberly Quinlan]

I was 19, and I came here just to go skiing, and I met my husband, who is from Michigan.

[Dax Shepard]

No way.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Yes. And we got married. And there you have it. After we'd been married for a couple years, I was so deep in my eating disorder, and I was planning a trip home to Australia, and I had a little meltdown because the menu on the airplane was not loading onto the Internet, and I needed to see this menu to determine whether I would gain massive amounts of weight on this airplane. That's where I was at. And I had a meltdown. And he gently said, I think it's time we get you some help. And to be honest, I was so relieved. So relieved. Some people with eating sores, like, absolutely not. But for me, I was just like, thank you for acknowledging that I cannot do this anymore. So I went to therapy. Therapy. And she made me eat a lot of burritos. And this is where I got into self compassion. This was back in the day when you had an ipod.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

And you would download things like podcasts onto the iPad. So I would download a podcast of Tara Brock. Do you know?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. I love her radical acceptance.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

And the therapist had given me a rule that I was not allowed to go to the gym anymore.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, wow.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Which made me very mad. It was very, very hard for me because that was one of the compulsions I did. So she agreed. I was allowed to take walks. So I'd put Tara Brock in my ears, and I would just walk and walk and walk, still compulsively.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure. Sure.

[Monica Padman]

Like 16 hours.

[Dax Shepard]

What's the point of doing it if you're not gonna do it?

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Correct. But something about that shifted in that I would be listening to her. She would be talking about compassion and that we're all equal, that you're neither good nor bad, that you're no better or less than other people. And slowly the message got in. So that was huge for me. But no. I would go back and she would say, okay, now you have to put cheese in your burrito. And now you have to put extra sour cream on your burrito.

[Monica Padman]

Wow. And so slowly, you just adapted.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Yeah. It took a lot of work. But to be honest, I was lucky because I wanted to have a good life. We would go out for, like, Friday night drinks, and I would have a drink. I would have a margarita, and then I would feel like crap. And everyone else seemed to be so happy. And I felt guilty and I felt scared. It just took up so much of my Life. And I knew there was something better than that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I relate to that in addiction, which is like, it's just so consuming that your real life's playing in the background of your head. It's like you're walking through everything. You're experiencing everything but what you're thinking. Real time is like, okay, I have three pills in my pocket. I'll go to the bathroom and then I'll be able to put one in. And then I think fell out of my chair. I gotta get that before someone. Like, you're doing all the things, but the preoccupation is really what your all day existence is.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

It is, it's exhausting and there's no.

[Dax Shepard]

Joy and you're missing life.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Yeah, I have a photo of me at like a El torito or something and I have a margarita and my husband took it and he's like, look how beautiful you look. And I look at that picture now and I'm like, I remember as he took that photo, I was counting calories. Wow. Wow.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

I do not remember the joy of that at all.

[Dax Shepard]

Just faking the whole thing so you don't get busted.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, this is where I have so much compassion for folks with eating disorders. Because, and I've said this before, forgive me, but if you told me I had to have a line of cocaine at 8:00am, then a line of cocaine at 1:00pm and a line of cocaine at 8:00pm no fucking way. Like the notion that you guys have to three times a day eat, and that's the issue I think is heroic of the many addictions or disorders, I mean, that's the one where you have to dance with the devil.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

Abstinence isn't an option.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

No. You can't just stay away from food. And it is this dance on either side. So you have to eat, but you're not allowed to binge because that would be a disordered behavior. But you're also not allowed to restrict. But you also have to learn to trust your body's satiation, which you have no idea what that looks like. And so it's this constant dance of trying to figure that out. It takes time.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Fuck, that's hard. So hard seems so hard.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

It is. And it's funny because you can be recovered for a very, very long time, which I have been, and get a stomach flu and throw up a bunch. And then there's this little voice in your brain that goes, this is really good, you know, and then you have to be like, oh, bring in the tools. Let's go. You have to be so ready for that. Especially at the beginning of recovery. Now I'm like, oh, hon, I got you. You don't have to worry. But at the beginning, there had to be some pretty systematic strategies to intervene with when you had a stomach flu.

[Dax Shepard]

Or how about I don't think I have disordered eating. But also I think pretty normal is we have these periods of total gorging, like holidays. Everyone's going to do it. We've not made one dessert. My mom starts cooking like December 10th for the snacks, you know, and it's like 8,000 options. Those must be really challenging.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

For sure. And I think going back to what you were saying about how ang people can be something that is so easy for some people is so hard for us. Because Aunt Jean is talking about how she's overate, which makes you think you've overate. And then Aunt Dorothy is saying, oh, I feel like a big fat pig. And now you're like, am I a big fat pig? Thanksgiving. Everyone's like, oh, you've looked great or you've gained weight or you've lost weight. You're surrounded by this constant, you're doing it right or you're doing it wrong. And the messaging of the eating disorder is being fed to you all the time.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Thinking. Now coming back to your question, I think that's why people are mad. I remember if someone was like, oh, I feel so fat. That used to be so hard for me. Or they'd be like, oh, I've got this great diet. And I'd be like, you have no idea how hard it is for me to hear that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

That could so trigger me back into behaviors. It's a slow chipping away of behaviors. I haven't weighed myself in 15 years. For that reason. You have to chip away. Like if someone told me I had to start weighing myself, my anxiety, I notice it right away. I remember when I was pregnant, the scariest part of being pregnant was that I might have to get weighed. I would do a blind weigh in every time. I'd be like, do not tell me I'm recovering from an eating disorder. And they'd go, I got you, don't worry.

[Dax Shepard]

I wanna applaud Monica. Cause I think Monica has enough self awareness about herself in her own ruminations and powers and obsession that Monica, to my knowledge, has never had an eating issue, but doesn't weigh herself preemptively.

[Monica Padman]

Like, I know I could become obsessed. I think it's smart for me just not to see it. I Mean, I've had like some tiny slippery slopes that have been enough that are like, eh, I think that's something I just can't do.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Well, that's an act of compassion, right? You know yourself, you know what's right for you and you're willing to hold that boundary for your long term wellbeing. That's perfect.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so anxiety, as much as we use the word, I think it might be useful to actually kind of talk about anxiety and talk about anxiety versus anxiety disorder. What's just like a cursory. If we were taking anxiety 101, what could you tell us about anxiety?

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Well, anxiety isn't actually bad. Everybody needs it. If you're crossing the street and there is a bus coming your way, your brain detects danger and sends out a bunch of anxiety hormones so that you know that you need to get off the road as soon as possible. That's a good thing. And we're constantly checking for danger too. So as I came in here without my even knowledge, I'm sure my brain did a little zoom through the room like is anyone weird in here? And is the roof going to fall on my head? And your brain is constantly changing tbp, by the way.

[Monica Padman]

We can't guarantee that it, well that's okay.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

But we're constantly checking for danger as a way to stay alive. And if their danger presents, anxiety presents and encourages us to fight flight, freeze or fawn. That's the four Fs. So that's not a problem. But as we've evolved over time, for some lucky ones of us who have genetically been set up for anxiety, our brains tend to go over and above looking for dangers now to look at like just in case fears. So someone without anxiety comes in, looks good, sit down, I'm good. For someone with an anxiety disorder, your brain starts to go, but what if the roof does fall on our head? And what if Monica isn't a nice person? Or what if Dax doesn't like me?

[Dax Shepard]

You're like now creating multiple steps.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Yeah. In different areas. So different disorders have different fears. So if I had an eating disorder, maybe I'm like, well did the cappuccino I have, is it going to make me gain weight? Or as if I had social anxiety, I'd be like, do they think I'm lame? If I had obsessions like you had with ocd, it might be, will I lose control and kill both of you? Right now it depends on where your brain goes. But the disordered piece is when that response impacts your functioning starts to impact Your ability to enjoy your day, that there's a degree of distress.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, yeah, because what I really, really enjoyed learning from Allegra was the difference between OCD and ocpd.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Such a clear distinction between if you're straightening up your height, house methodically, you ultimately agree that's the right decision. You do think that's a virtue, that you're.

[Monica Padman]

It aligns with your value.

[Dax Shepard]

It aligns with your values.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Well, it depends on the function. We always assess function. So when I finish seeing clients for the day, I tidy. Not because I'm doing it from a place of anxiety. It's very soothing for me to feel like I'm finishing off the day. I don't have to think about anything. I might just potter around and fuss with things. Whereas if I was doing it because I felt such anxiety that I couldn't move on to my evening, or that if the house wasn't tidy, bad things might happen to my children, that's a whole different thing.

[Dax Shepard]

I read something else you wrote. If we do things perfectly, people will be less upset at us, experience less adversity.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Also, I was listening. You had a guest on your podcast talking about social anxiety. And again, there's like, these pop culture understandings of this versus what it is, OCD versus ocpd. And then I would think, yeah, in general, we would regard social anxiety as being shyness. No, not it at all. Please dispel that.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

So there are all kinds of humans. None are right. Some are introverts, some are extroverts, some are shy, some are really outspoken. And any of those can have social anxiety. Social anxiety is the fear of being judged. In fact, some people believe that social anxiety is more of a shame disorder than an anxiety disorder. The fear that you're not good enough or that you're bad. Shame can be a very painful component of the disorder, but typically it's the fear of being judged by other people. Now, for some people with social anxiety, they could come and do this and have not an ounce of social anxiety, but put them in a party or at a networking event or to speak on stage, and no way. Whereas some of my patients go on the red carpet and put on a show and speak in front of millions of people, but sitting across from someone at a date is terrifying to them. So it depends on the person and it depends on the circumstances.

[Dax Shepard]

Stay tuned for more Armchair expert, if you dare. We are supported by Wayfair. Oh, my goodness, I love Wayfair. My feet are on a Wayfair coffee table right now that I'm in love with, I cannot believe the holidays are just around the corner. If you're hosting this holiday season, it's definitely that time where you need to start prepping the house to make things festive but also functional for your guests. Wayfair is the place to get great deals on things your home actually needs this time of year. Cozier blankets, maybe a few extra dining chairs, holiday serveware. You name it, they have it. If you've been eyeing a few things on Wayfair, now is the time to get them. They have huge holiday deals going on right now and you can get up to 70% off during their Black Friday deals.

[Monica Padman]

That's huge.

[Dax Shepard]

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[Monica Padman]

As you said, we have a coffee table, we have side tables in the studio. This whole place is Wayfair.

[Dax Shepard]

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[Monica Padman]

23Andme is how we learned about misophonia. That's right, it's how we gave it credit.

[Dax Shepard]

And I just ordered a supplemental test that already was there. They just had to analyze it for our isaacson. Yes, with 23 me plus total health, you get comprehensive blood testing beyond routine labs, which can help you get a better understanding of how your health is changing throughout the year. Best of all, it's FSAHSA eligible. Check with your administrator to confirm eligibility. Advocate for your health today. Go to 23me.comdax to receive 10% off. That's 10% off at 23andme.comdax we are supported by SKIMS. If you're in the market for holiday presents, SKIMS has got you covered.

[Monica Padman]

Boy, do they. They just launched their holiday shop with some incredible gift ideas. You know, I Like giving gifts?

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. You're a gift expert and you approve?

[Monica Padman]

I do. And when I gave for a white el, I gave a skims robe once before. It was a huge hit.

[Dax Shepard]

It was stolen immediately. Immediately.

[Monica Padman]

And they do. They have this amazing soft lounge sleep set from the skims holiday shop. Really cute seasonal colors. It's so nice to get festive and get in your skims and bop around.

[Dax Shepard]

You gotta eventize.

[Monica Padman]

You gotta.

[Dax Shepard]

It's so fun. And who doesn't love a gift list? It makes holiday shopping that much easier. Shop skims holiday [e-mail] available in styles for women, men, kids, and even pets. If you haven't yet, be sure to let them know we sent you. After you place your orders, select podcast in the survey and select our show in the dropdown menu that follows. And again, it kind of starts overlapping a little bit with ocd, which is the guest you had on. She was saying, like, before she goes to a social event, she'll start compulsively checking that her face isn't red. Armpit sweat. Checking if she smells.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

That to me is like, well, that's the compulsion. Right. There's some obsession. I'll be excluded or I'll be judged or I'm not good enough to be there. And then the compulsion is like, what is my checklist of things that might alienate me?

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Yeah. So there's something also to know about this. So that can be a symptom of social anxiety, the fear that you would smell and therefore would be judged socially because of it. There is actually another diagnosis called olfactory reference syndrome, where people's core fear are that they smell. That is the only part of their condition. And they spend a lot of time obsessing and compulsing over whether they smell. Do people notice? I'm asking a lot of reassurance seeking, so that could bleed into a different disorder as well.

[Dax Shepard]

I've been asked, as we all have, like, do I smell or do you smell or does my breast smell? And I'm not thinking that they might possibly have a disorder that that's on their mind all the time.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

The thing to take note of is repetition. With all the these conditions, if you're having a particularly stinky day.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

You might ask, do I smell? But if you're noticing that person asking it repetitively, that's where we're looking more at a degree of disorder.

[Dax Shepard]

Can I add in for fun? If someone steps out of the shower and they say, do I smell? Might be a red flag. Your podcast Your anxiety toolkit is wonderful and you cover so many different topics on there. Do you have a favorite guest?

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Yeah, I have a couple. Tara Brock has been on my podcast.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, was that so wonderful for you? And full circle.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

It was like a career highlight. I was traveling for a conference to Washington and I reached out to her and I said I will literally take 10 minutes if you've got it and I will make a donation because she has an insight meditation center. And she said yes.

[Monica Padman]

Wow.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

That was such a wonderful. Like literally the person who helped me recover. It was such a moment.

[Dax Shepard]

Can I ask what your anxiety level was approaching that interview?

[Kimberly Quinlan]

My anxiety was that I was going to go to the wrong way location. Actually that was my anxiety here today as well. What if I just show up and I'm standing outside someone's gate and I'm not even at the right place? But no, actually it just felt so right. It was so good. But my other favorite episode was my husband. Oh. Because he had his own anxiety disorder that he was working through and he bravely came on and shared about how he was working through his own panic disorder on airplanes.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, wow. And it was just cool not to derail us totally. But I just know so many people who are so afraid of flying. Yes. Do you have a two minute way to get people past that you have.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

A 90 second cure for how fast can I talk?

[Monica Padman]

But you know what I mean. Are there any tools? Cause it's debilitating.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Depends on the fear. So if the fear is that the plane will crash, it might be around some psycho education or the safety of a plane and helping them to understand what planes do and how they function.

[Monica Padman]

I don't feel like that helps them.

[Dax Shepard]

I know. I've always tried that.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

There's that group and then there are those who just simply have panic disorder and that's that they're afraid they'll have a panic attack on a plane. So that's different. Often people say they're afraid of planes, but they're actually afraid of panicking.

[Dax Shepard]

Ah, interesting. I can way more relate to that category.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Yeah. And he was that he was more afraid that if I get on a plane I can't get off the plane. And if I can't get off the plane, I'll panic.

[Dax Shepard]

It's almost a claustrophobia A adjacent and it's so common.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Panic is the fear of panic.

[Dax Shepard]

Wow.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. That's what it is.

[Dax Shepard]

How circulates. Panic is the fear of.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

And panic is terrifying. It's 10 out of 10. You feel like you're going to die. You feel like you've left your body. So I don't blame anybody for not wanting to have a panic attack. But believe it or not, as someone who's had lots of panic attacks, the best thing you can do is let it happen.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Do nothing about it at all. And that sounds very easy. And it is simple, but it's hard at the same time, is allow that panic to rise and fall. And with each time you panic, you'll build mastery over panic. And interestingly, as you build mastery, your panic gets smaller and smaller. So you think that letting it come will blow your head off, but it's actually the opposite.

[Dax Shepard]

Would I be right to guess that it's the fighting it that is the fuel?

[Kimberly Quinlan]

100%. What you resist persists.

[Dax Shepard]

Wow.

[Monica Padman]

And it's knowing it. Oh, this is what it is. It's a panic attack. I had them for a while. I just thought I was dying every time until many doctors were like, you're fine. You probably should go to therapy. And I was like, oh, okay. And then yeah, like. But it is so scary because you're like, what if I have one while I'm. I mean, at the beginning, I was starting to babysit for them. I was like, well, what if I'm holding the baby and I have one? Or in the car, and I had had one in the car. So it does start perpetuating and get really crazy. But once you recognize, like, that's what it is, that's happening.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Panic attacks are not dangerous. And when you can wrap your head around that, I always sort of make a joke. But I have literally had to ride panic attacks in this exact way. Is you just starfish. Like, you lay down and you open your palms and you're just like, bring it on. Let's go.

[Dax Shepard]

Let's go, motherfucker. Let's party.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Let's do this. And you wait it out. Again. A lot of this is mindfulness skills, so it's bringing your attention to the present. Practicing non judgment about the panic attack. Like, this is neither good nor bad. It just is.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm not broken because of this.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Did I go over time? 90 seconds?

[Dax Shepard]

No.

[Monica Padman]

Perfect.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

And people talk about that with addiction too, right? You've got to ride a wave of an urge.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

So it's very similar.

[Dax Shepard]

You're probably reticent to give these kind of hard, fast rules, but I think a lot of people are dancing on the spectrum of a lot of these things. We had this great Kata Hawk. She was a sex therapist, and she Defined something in a way for me that was so crystal clear and so helpful. I was saying, what if people have sexual trauma and then they want to explore that sexual trauma in different ways as they're adults, who are we to say that it's wrong for them? Like they were dealt this hand and she said, oh, it's very simple. Whatever your sexual proclivity or tendency is, if it doesn't result in shame or secrecy, then you're golden. I was like, oh, so clear cut. Thank you. That's helpful to people. So is there anything we can say about people who are on this spectrum of diet and exercise? Are there things, are there red flags that we should be aware of? Are there things that we should take account of and assess?

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Yeah. So my job as a clinician is actually to always assess medical first, not mental. And so if I have a client who is of healthy weight and isn't doing harm to themselves or other others, then my job is actually to just help them explore what's best for them. My job is not here to sit across from you and say, you have a disorder and you must rid yourself of all disorders.

[Dax Shepard]

You need to eat 2,200 calories a day.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Yes. That's not my personal experience of my job. However, if there is someone sitting across from me who is medically in trouble, they're malnourished. They haven't had a period in a very long time. To the degree in which their medical professionals are concerned, it could be just anything that started to impact their short term and long term wellness. I will raise a concern and say I'm worried. What can I do? What are you willing to do? What would feel safe for you? Can I bring in other team members and have a discussion first? There are a small degree of people who, if they keep going, they're going to have a heart attack. I've had those clients. They're so malnourished, they're putting so much stress on their internal organs. A heart attack is around the corner. That's different. Where we may look at hospitalization and so forth, but I think there's so much beauty in first exploring people and their own values and understanding what is this pattern? What are these behaviors actually doing for you first before I rip them from you?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

I want to know how they're helping you. And then we can start to talk about alternatives and you get to decide.

[Dax Shepard]

I like that approach. I want you to rid me of something, I think.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

But the interesting thing is, it's funny you is as soon as I come at it from an angle of, how does this help you? How does it not help you? You're more likely to say, I'm willing to trust you with my problem, of course. Whereas if I'm across from you being like, you've got to stop doing this thing, Yikes, you've already got enough anxiety. You don't need any more.

[Dax Shepard]

Control is a huge element of it. And now you're telling me that your solution is to control me, and I already am feeling out of control, then it's just going to accelerate this thing. Yeah.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

This is big for teens. Right. You got a teen who has got an anxiety disorder or a mood disorder or eating disorder. They don't want to give their parents the satisfaction of changing things. So it's saying, what are you willing to do? What would be better for you? Instead of the mom and dad coming in and being like, we want you to do this. It's so much more effective. It builds a sense of self mastery when they come up with their own solution.

[Dax Shepard]

I guess I have stereotypes. Is this something that affects younger people more than older people, or is it all pretty much across the board?

[Kimberly Quinlan]

There's as many people anxiety or I.

[Dax Shepard]

Guess you just had brought up a teenager with an EDM disorder, and that seems the one I'm probably thinking feels like they would be most vulnerable to that at that age.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Very much. I actually didn't get my eating disorder until I was 17. Really ramped up when I moved to America, but it wasn't because of American culture. It's because I had nothing else to define me. I was alone here with a husband who was working a lot and I didn't have a visa to work. And what was I going to do? I felt so powerful when I was on a diet. I felt so in control and better than other people. Yes. It was such a drug. People would say, you're so disciplined. And I'd be like, I know. But inside I was completely miserable.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

This has nothing to do with any of these topics, although maybe it will dovetail into it. But I'm impressed that your relationship weathered you moving and leaving everything for that person. Because if I were you, and I was scared and I was lonely and I was unmoored and I didn't know my identity, I would be so hyper, vigilantly evaluating this person I had done all this for. I just feel like I would be scrutinizing them to a degree that would not be natural.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Yeah, we've navigated that.

[Dax Shepard]

It's impressive.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

My husband and I are very different. But he gives the world's best hugs. If there is a competition for the world's best hugs, it is him.

[Dax Shepard]

He and I need to have a hug on.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, Dax.

[Dax Shepard]

Maybe it's a Michigan diet.

[Monica Padman]

I was. Oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

Maybe it is the mitten. It has something to do with the mitten.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

You'll have to give me one after this. And I will compare and contrast, and I'll give you a little, like, out of five.

[Dax Shepard]

You love the five scale. It makes me uncomfortable. I want everything out of 10.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

But I think for him, there's a safety there with that. So even though it was so scary and something I would never wish on anybody, I was so young. I was married when I was 21. We had actually lived apart on opposite end of the world longer than we had been together on the day we got married. So we'd spent more time apart than together.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, you guys made this.

[Monica Padman]

Wow. That's incredible.

[Dax Shepard]

This is low odds, everything you're saying.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

It is. So I don't really know. But, you know, I say to friends, marriage is not easy. It's mostly just the decision to stay married. That person has to be enough. You're a safe person. And it's mostly a decision. Right? And we just keep making the decision.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I'm going to repeat this too many times at this point, but our first therapy session between my wife and I, which was months into, he wanted to meet with me first because he was her therapist. So we had like a session, but he was sober, which made me trust him. And he's like, so tell me this whole thing. And I said, well, basically, we were dating. Then we went away and did a movie together, and they did not want to hire us because we were dating. And I told one of the producers, who's one of my best friends, I said, listen, I'm going to promise you under no circumstance will we break up during this movie. I don't give a shit what happens. I'm promising you I'm not going to do that. And now we're home, and I'm like, now we're back in real life. And I had. And he goes, that's an interesting phrase. You're in real life. Because actually, that was real life.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Committing no matter what. That was real life. And I was like, whoa, Mind blown. Wow. That is really it, huh? I can't believe how simple that was. But it kind of blew my mind.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Tell me the title of your book.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

I wrote the Self Compassion Workbook for ocd.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, the Self compassion workbook for ocd. If you don't have ocd, does that book still have tools for compassion?

[Kimberly Quinlan]

It does, but I'm in the process of writing the every person version. It's way more sassy. That's very much almost like a textbook. Publishers asked me to write it as a clinical workbook for people who don't have access to treatment. This is more sassy in daily life stuff.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. That's the problem is like be more compassionate to yourself. That's easily said, but I, I think one of the great parts of AA is simply there are actionable steps you take so that you're engaged. You know it's not in your mind. Even if it's bullshit. We figured out ways to give you actions that help reinforce what's going on in your brain.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Yeah, there are actions and it's also today like you guys now know the areas and just that awareness sometimes is enough. Even if you don't move to self kindness, you just catch yourself in the negative. That can be great too. This is so important when you criticize yourself and judge yourself. It actually ramps up your nervous system. It prompts your body when you're mean. You're like, you idiot, if I sat across from you or you even said it to yourself. And we put heart rate monitors on you and we did an evaluation of your brain. Your whole body goes into anxiety and a lot of nervous system ramping up. So think about if you're going to do something hard. Do you need that extra horrible?

[Dax Shepard]

Right? Are you setting yourself up?

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Yeah, it's already hard enough. Don't make it worse by beating yourself up. Physiologically, our body does add more suffering when we act that way.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, Kimberly, this was delightful and I'm so glad that you got to come in and talk to us. And I'll very much be looking forward to self compassion for laypeople non OCD version. And everyone should check out your anxiety toolkit. Your husband and that's exciting.

[Monica Padman]

I'm definitely going to listen to that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Good start. Episodes. Well, I hope we get to see you again. Maybe when you finish your book you can come back.

[Monica Padman]

Thank you.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

That would be great. Thank you so much for having me. What a treat.

[Dax Shepard]

I want to tell you you did a great job, but I also feel like that might feed it.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Yeah, yeah. In Australia we say tickets. If you're full of yourself, everyone goes tickets. Like you're selling tickets for yourself.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, I like that.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

So don't give me tickets.

[Dax Shepard]

Don't give me tickets.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

All Right.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, thank you so much, Kimberly.

[Monica Padman]

Stay tuned for the Fact Check. It's where the party's at.

[Dax Shepard]

Engaged.

[Monica Padman]

Your shirt kind of matches my shoes.

[Dax Shepard]

I'll say. Should I put those boots on so I can tie this whole thing together a little better?

[Monica Padman]

No, I wouldn't want you to mess them up. Oh, stretch them out.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Well, don't you think.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, my feelings are a little hurt, but we can continue.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you think you can try my shoes on, even if you ruin them?

[Monica Padman]

Well, here's the thing. I don't think I'm really at risk of stretching yours out.

[Dax Shepard]

You're not, but you could have a toe fungus.

[Monica Padman]

Never.

[Dax Shepard]

I have a toenail fungus.

[Monica Padman]

I think I might too.

[Dax Shepard]

I've opened up a two front war on it, though. Finally.

[Monica Padman]

Well, how are you handling.

[Dax Shepard]

I have this crazy theory. I mean, I only believe in this theory, like 1%.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

This be very clear about how much I think this is plausible.

[Monica Padman]

You.

[Dax Shepard]

You know this about me. I have a toenail that's dead.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Big toenail on my left foot from a motorcycle accident years ago. 13 years ago. Right.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And so this is grotesque. In fact, this whole podcast is becoming so grotesque because I talked about a oily evac the other day.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

I noticed.

[Monica Padman]

We always talk about stuff like that.

[Dax Shepard]

I know, but it's getting worse. But at any rate, I do have this disgusting toe. Everyone should know this dark side of me. And it doesn't grow. I discovered it because. Because you may remember this detail. I used to take Kristen on her birthday to get manicure pedicures.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

And I would join and I would get a pedicure.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And I'd always do the same blue. I love this blue. It's a gumball blue audi. Made a A4 in it. It's gorgeous. Well, it's like July 17th. I'm like planning tomorrow's trip.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And I just real. I don't know how I missed this. All the blue was gone from the year before on all of my tone, except for my left big toe. It was solid blue. And I was like, oh, that toenail's not growing. Mind you. I noticed it looked weird, but I assumed it was still growing. It hadn't grown. This was probably an eight year ago realization.

[Monica Padman]

Yikes.

[Dax Shepard]

And I use a Dremel tool and I grind it. I do all these things. Well, the last. Oh, bad. The last time recently I got in it with the Dremel and I took it down really far. I noticed under the toenail, like in my nail bed, it's like, black. Okay. So then I listen to how crazy this theory is.

[Monica Padman]

Okay?

[Dax Shepard]

So then I was like, maybe I don't have psoriatic arthritis or autoimmune thing. Maybe I've had this, like, a toe infection under my toenail for the last 13 years, and it's what's been causing all my ailments. And once I launched that theory, I'm like, we must. I either need to remove. Okay, So I did something crazy that the kids watched the other day. Okay, this is nuts. So my dad. It was embarrassing. I took a safety pin and I heated it up in a candle, and I put, like, 20 holes throughout the toenail. And then I doused it all in rubbing alcohol, hoping to kill the fungus in there.

[Monica Padman]

God.

[Dax Shepard]

And my kids were watching whole operation.

[Monica Padman]

Dex, can't you just go to the doctor?

[Dax Shepard]

I can't. I can't seem to find the time.

[Monica Padman]

Yes, you can.

[Dax Shepard]

I can't.

[Monica Padman]

For something that's like, destroying your immune system, think about how well you would have done on the cognitive test if you didn't have this fungus.

[Dax Shepard]

I can. We asked. It's probably best, though. I wasn't at my peak. If I been bragging. I bragged so much. Just with my half cognition.

[Monica Padman]

You did a good job, but can you, like. You really should go to the doctor.

[Dax Shepard]

I can't go to the doctor.

[Monica Padman]

Why? I know. Don't be that person.

[Dax Shepard]

Hold on.

[Monica Padman]

I am against that person.

[Dax Shepard]

Of course you should be.

[Monica Padman]

I am.

[Dax Shepard]

It's not because I don't want to see that. Let me put it this way. If the doctor came over. I'm not asking for that. That's not my expectation. I. Not that entitled. If the doctor came over between records, I'd be. I'd let him probe my whole body. I'm not afraid in that masculine way. It's. When will I have time to drive to Beverly Hills? Between now and December. Because the calendar is not. And it's been nonstop for about five weeks.

[Monica Padman]

It's nonstop. And you can find the time. Like, let's be. Let's be realistic.

[Dax Shepard]

Like, yeah. Someone was selling a 1986911 Turbo for $4,000 in Marina del Rey. Somehow I would figure out how to get over there in that time window. So you're. I agree.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. You can go. And you should.

[Dax Shepard]

I should. But I was like, go. Or just put a bunch of holes in it.

[Monica Padman]

Did it fix it?

[Dax Shepard]

I have a toenail fungus. Spray this. So this is. My star meter just went down to zero. Brad Pitt doesn't have a fungus spray.

[Monica Padman]

He probably does.

[Dax Shepard]

You think he has fungus? I don't think so.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, hold on, I'm gonna look up.

[Dax Shepard]

Does Brad Pitt have fungus? Okay. So I then I left my fungal spray in on the Nashville trip somewhere.

[Monica Padman]

I don't even know how often do you spray it?

[Dax Shepard]

I'm streaky. I remember four nights in a row and then I forget for two months. I'm bad at it.

[Monica Padman]

Interesting. So. But it's part of your, like, technically it's part of your routine.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, once I started grinding out, I'm like, I think that's. I think that's a toenail fungus. And I got a spray about two years ago, but I only used it. I don't even want to tell you all the details because it's too amazing.

[Monica Padman]

I want to hear it.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so I've only used it probably. It's two years old and the bottle is very full. So I'm just like.

[Monica Padman]

I'm not sure if you're supposed to use it for that long either.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, you're supposed to spray it on top. It's just rubbing alcohol. It just kills fungus.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

So anyways, I forgot it and I was like, shit, I got to order more. Well, when I went to Amazon to order more, I realized there's a lot of products. I'm not alone in this battle.

[Monica Padman]

No, I just looked it up and approximately 15 to 25% of are likely to have a fungal infection.

[Dax Shepard]

15 to 25% fungal infection.

[Monica Padman]

Like athletes foot at any given time with superficial skin and nail fungal infections affecting up to 20 to 25% of the global population. Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

So that means there's 2 billion people with toe fungus.

[Monica Padman]

So the chances of Brad Pitt having it is actually 25% high. As in 25%.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Well, not really because. Well, whatever.

[Dax Shepard]

He's in a different. He's not even in the populace. Okay. Point being I discovered all these different. Is that. Oh, that's the eun. They are cute.

[Monica Padman]

Aren't they cute?

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, this is the aforementioned mug. Yeah, the coveted mug.

[Monica Padman]

She got some tea on her.

[Dax Shepard]

Looks like shit. Okay. Did you get shit on that? I guess. Cause it's coffee and tea. It's got a. Anyways, I don't wanna make this even grosser. Once I got onto that page of tone. Well then I discovered there are like humongous band aids you can put over your toe. And it has a patch with some chemical I'm sure that seeps in. And I have an advantage because I've drilled holes in the Top of Swiss cheese on my nose.

[Monica Padman]

Ew.

[Dax Shepard]

As soon as that cheese. That was a really bad.

[Monica Padman]

Don't ever say cheese when they're coming. But is it cheese fungus? Well, I don't know what used to think about that.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so I got these. I was just bragging about it last night. So I got these bandaid things and that's a nighttime thing. And then in the morning I have this now milky liquid I put in all around the cuticle and slather it with a brush. So I've opened up a two front war.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Morning and night on this toenail. What if I care this infection? What if the fungal infection seeping into my bloodstream and that's all of my autoimmune issues. It's not out of the realm.

[Monica Padman]

It's not out of the realm. I think it could be. Which is why you have to go to the doctor. This. What you're doing is such a waste of time.

[Dax Shepard]

Give me a couple weeks to see if I can clean up all the dirt. Darkness in the nail and everything. Let's see if I can knock out this thing and have a really healthy pink toenail bed and. And if I can accomplish that.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, look.

[Dax Shepard]

I've been living with this for 12 years. So we can go another couple weeks.

[Monica Padman]

If it's in your bloodstream like it's more than some rubbing alcohol. That's going to fix it. You're going to have to get blood transfusion and new. New, full new blood.

[Dax Shepard]

All right. I'll give myself a blood transfusion. I'll figure out how to get some.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, well, now it's making more sense. Why you got so offended by my joke about my shoe. Because you're dealing with something very real.

[Dax Shepard]

You're right. And I wasn't even aware of that. That's how the subconscious works.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Is. Oh my God. Because I have this deep insecurity about how gross my foot is. You said it was about stretching it out. But I. But what I heard was your. Your toes are too fungus.

[Monica Padman]

I know. You didn't even hear the part about stretching out. You just heard about your nap. Nasty foot.

[Dax Shepard]

It's just another step into my father's shadow. Which is so crazy because I used to come into my dad's bedroom. I know I've told you this. And he had the largest Swiss army knife with every one of the attachments. It was like 6 inches thick. And I'd come in there and he'd have paper towel under his foot. And he would have the little scissors from it going. And the knife and there.

[Monica Padman]

Ew.

[Dax Shepard]

Ew. And I'm like, what are you doing? He was always operating on his feet. And I was like, this man is a monster and he's disgusting. And I was sitting there poking holes in my toenail and I was like, I'm doing it. I'm repeating.

[Monica Padman]

Can't you be the one to break the pattern? Break the chain?

[Dax Shepard]

I think it's going to be on Lincoln and Delphi.

[Monica Padman]

No, you can do it.

[Dax Shepard]

I can only do so good.

[Monica Padman]

You can. I promise you can do it.

[Dax Shepard]

There's a few things I have, I have floating out in the ether like three stupid fucking errands that were years into. Every time I write a to do list. A couple of items make it on there and then six others. And I knock out the six and I just keep rewriting.

[Monica Padman]

What are they?

[Dax Shepard]

I can't tell one cuz one of them's illegal.

[Monica Padman]

What is it? I'll cut it.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I.

[Monica Padman]

You going to murder?

[Dax Shepard]

No.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. Got it. You need to do that.

[Dax Shepard]

I know I need to do it. And I. And I need to fix this poisonous toe.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. I want you to fix the toe before you do that though. For real.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, that's likely. I think I'm gonna have an update for you in a couple fact checks that I've knocked out this whole issue. Think of the pride I'll have of having.

[Monica Padman]

Because this is why men, ah. People try to make it so. They try to make it so kind and sweet like. Well, men are just too afraid to be vulnerable. So they don't want to go to the doctor. That's not it. They're arrogant. They think they can fix. They can poke holes in their body and pour rubbing alcohol and fix their bloodstream.

[Dax Shepard]

You're not being fair.

[Monica Padman]

I'm being so fair.

[Dax Shepard]

I am a. I don't think your average man is sawing at his toes. My father. Did I come by this honestly? Men are their standing. If they're weak goes down. We can be compassionate to that.

[Monica Padman]

Say it again.

[Dax Shepard]

Their social standing if their weak goes down.

[Monica Padman]

You know what makes someone social stand standing go down?

[Dax Shepard]

Fungus.

[Monica Padman]

Yes. Uncontrolled fungus. Men can't even see that. That's the truth.

[Dax Shepard]

We're a pretty unhealthy population when you're traveling around. I don't know why I'm taking it here, but I. Because I have it, right? So I know if I eat my. Like have a big gluten meal and then there's garlic in it, the next day my Skin will show it. And I'm traveling around a lot and, like, a good chunk of us is poisoning ourselves. I see it, like, I'll be talking to a guy, an older guy, and it's just his face is inflamed with so clearly so much stuff's going on. It's so visible in the face.

[Monica Padman]

Well, he probably didn't go to the do. He's like, what the. I guess I'll just pour some rubbing alcohol on my face. This redness poke so many holes. Don't worry, in a couple weeks, it'll be fixed.

[Dax Shepard]

This will be straightened out. Well, I think it's twofold. A. These things are hard to track down. Like, what are you allergic to? We're eating 1 million things. So it's a very hard task to figure out what you're allergic to. If it were like, you went there and they go, oh, yeah, you're positive for name your known pathogen, here's a medicine that works on it. Unfortunately, the stuff we're allergic to doesn't work that way.

[Monica Padman]

Not always, but sometimes, like, you know, you can go do an allergy test and some things do pop up pretty quickly and you can know.

[Dax Shepard]

Yep. Like, you can do the skin prick test. I've done it and Aaron's done it. And, you know, that's a good start. I think it's more. That's a very rudimentary version.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I think that's right.

[Dax Shepard]

It's. It's hard because I have poured more time into that, the autoimmune thing than anything else. I've been to hundreds of doctors appointments and labs and Poncho karma cleanse and. Anyways, okay, so that's what's going on with my toenail. Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare. Apple Card is the perfect card for your holiday shopping. When you use Apple Cart on your iPhone, you'll earn up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase, including products at Apple like a new iPhone 16 or Apple Watch Ultra. Apply now in the wallet app on your iPhone. Subject to credit approval. Apple card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch terms and [e-mail]. i saw substance last night.

[Monica Padman]

I want to see it so bad.

[Dax Shepard]

You brought it up last fact check.

[Monica Padman]

I brought it up on a next month episode. Oh, an upcoming episode.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, I thought it was on a fact check.

[Monica Padman]

What the fuck? You beat me.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Tell me your thoughts.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

First of all.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so, substance. It's Demi Moore, Margaret Qualley, and I don't want to give A lot away. But I think the premise is fine, which is Demi Moore is playing this aging actress, public personality. It is incredible metaphor at the beginning with the star on the walk of fame. She comes to find out there's this thing. She can take the substance. And if you take it, you'll be able to be young for seven days. But then you gotta go back to your old self for seven days. And there's really strict rules. They're very simple. It's laid out. And it's the most relentless movie I think I've ever seen. It's intense. I'm really curious to see how you're going to be able to handle it. It is. It's relentless. I can see where a couple people walked out. I think it's one of these things. If you don't walk out, you're going to love it. But it's very intense.

[Monica Padman]

Well, I told you that I heard someone had a heart attack and a seizure.

[Dax Shepard]

So the seizure. I remember you telling me about the seizure. And I definitely know what the part is. There's. There's a lot of, like, there's some graphics that flick. But you don't have that.

[Monica Padman]

I have epilepsy.

[Dax Shepard]

I know you have epilepsy, but you haven't ever been triggered by a strobe light, right?

[Monica Padman]

I don't think so.

[Dax Shepard]

But you don't wanna roll the dice.

[Monica Padman]

We don't. I'm scared to roll the dice. And also the night before the first seizure.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

We did go to a play.

[Dax Shepard]

Terrence Posner.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, we did. We went to Terrence Posner and it was a great play. But there was like some light stuff and some big pop outs.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Big frights.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And then I had a seizure that night. Yeah, I mean, I think it's fine.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm more. I'm more willing to deal with a fungus if you have that. I'm a little nervous to dip my toe in your epilepsy water. But regardless, you could also go with a friend.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

It's obvious. When that comes, they could tell you to shut your eyes and then tell you when that part's over.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, Okay. I had a dinner last night where somebody else saw it. It's funny, I'm getting sort of mixed things because. Well, not mixed reviews. Everyone's like, whoa, it's great.

[Dax Shepard]

It's intense.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, it's intense.

[Dax Shepard]

Might be the most intense movie I've ever seen.

[Monica Padman]

Yes. And that's what I. A lot of people have said. But then this person said, she was like, you'll be fine.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, you're gonna love the messaging so much.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

The messaging and what they're exploring.

[Monica Padman]

Who'd you go with?

[Dax Shepard]

Phenomenal. Kristen. She surprised and had bought tickets. So I think she had been hearing about it too. And yeah, you're gonna love the metaphors.

[Monica Padman]

Did she get freaked out too? Like was she.

[Dax Shepard]

She loved it. But Kristen loves gorr and slasher and gross.

[Monica Padman]

I have a burgeoning theory.

[Dax Shepard]

Demi Moore's phenomenal in it. The bravery of both the actors is off the charts.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

They're naked most of the movie.

[Monica Padman]

I heard that. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Which is so relevant because that's what it's all about. Our obsession with our bodies and our. And it's really good. It's fantastic.

[Monica Padman]

I wonder if the amount of like feeling disturbed is going to break down by gender because I don't think so.

[Dax Shepard]

Because there's just very disturbing visuals from.

[Monica Padman]

Men who have seen it. They have ur. It's like they are freaking out about how intense it was and how. And the. The person with the seizure and the heart attack. And then I've talked to a few women who are like, whoa, it's crazy. You got to see it. But like. But they don't have that.

[Dax Shepard]

And I think what could be different? Because the thing that is intense isn't the metaphor. Like I know what you're saying and guessing at, which is very astute. But it's just the visuals of. It's the. It's way gorier than any slasher picture I've ever seen in my life. So there's just a visual. A visceral visual gnarliness to it. Now what I do agree with is that for women they will. They will feel so seen that they'll be having this complimentary feeling of the pleasure of being seen so well to offset probably the uncomfortableness. So in that way maybe. But I think. I think women are going to be just shook by some of the visuals.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Oh, I'm sure a lot. A lot of women have put substances in their body.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh. Uh huh.

[Monica Padman]

In attempt to stop aging. Look younger. And I myself included chin filler. Chin filler, Botox. But really. Right. Like so.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. But I will say what is really great about the movie is it all these things are very related. Sure. It's about beauty and aging for a woman. It's also very much a metaphor for addiction, as you'll see. I don't want to give away kind of what the interesting twist of it all is.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

But there's a very, very Very strong parallel with addiction and kind of robbing from your future to experience something now is really interesting.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Any is incredible.

[Monica Padman]

Well, it's kind of a ding, ding, ding.

[Dax Shepard]

Already feels like a stretch the way you're saying it.

[Monica Padman]

This is for Kimberly. So it was about self compassion, actually. Very much a ding, ding, ding. We talked a lot about eating disorders.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh. Uhhuh.

[Monica Padman]

And phobias and things like that. So it is a ding, ding, ding.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. We took a test.

[Monica Padman]

We took a test last.

[Dax Shepard]

We love taking a test.

[Monica Padman]

Love taking it. Absolutely love it.

[Dax Shepard]

And you know what? I don't even really want to think about it because I don't want to know how the sausage is made and then ruin it. But clearly you and I have some.

[Monica Padman]

Thing, like some work to do.

[Dax Shepard]

No, no, no, no. We have some symbiosis. Oh, right.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And I always kind of wonder, well, what is like, if you had to distill it down to, what is the core thing that enables this to work? Yeah, yeah. This, like, kind of explosive point of view situation.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And it's not gender, it's not race, it's not a lot of stuff. It's not size. And so just. It's curious if maybe like. Well, this. This is the thing we seem to have overlapped on the very most.

[Monica Padman]

Well, that's funny that you say that, because I think it is all those things. I think it is gender, race, size, innate personality. Like, I think it's. It is all those things that add up to. For some reason, these puzzle pieces, like, go together well as foils.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure. Yeah, that's true. But I think there's something bigger than that because I meet a lot of tiny Indian women.

[Monica Padman]

No, you don't.

[Dax Shepard]

I do.

[Monica Padman]

You do?

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

Who? Oh, God, that girl.

[Dax Shepard]

What one? That girl. Oh, my friend from Instagram.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

No, no, no, no, no. Believe it or not, there's a lot of Indians moving through the world, and I meet them. We work. We. We work.

[Monica Padman]

You meet them. But do you. You don't know them. Let's be. Can you be.

[Dax Shepard]

None of my points are working today.

[Monica Padman]

But really, like, that'd be like me.

[Dax Shepard]

Saying that our oppositeness, I don't think is the explanation personally.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Because, I mean, a lot of opposites.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, that's fair.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I think that, like, here's the things I think about us, like, the. Our justiceness is part of the engine.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. That we share this character defect or proclivity for being justice or strengths. Arbiters. Yeah. But I don't know I think this beating ourselves up might be part of it.

[Monica Padman]

I could see that.

[Dax Shepard]

Scratch all my points today.

[Monica Padman]

I'm keeping them all in.

[Dax Shepard]

I guess when you start with operating on your own toe fungus, everything else probably is going to fall apart.

[Monica Padman]

You lose some validity.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Do you think we're compassionate to one another? Yeah. On the same level we are to other people? I don't think so. I'll admit that.

[Monica Padman]

Really?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. And I think it's. It's weirdly a compliment to you.

[Monica Padman]

This is a big revelation. I'm glad you're saying it.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm thinking it. I'm just evaluating it in this very moment, which is. I'm very hard on myself because I know better. I've demonstrated willpower. I think I should be able to tackle any of these things I hate about myself. And I think because I have a very high opinion of you, I'm probably harsher on you than I am someone who I think is half as smart as you. Half is. Whatever. So I think it's possible there's some.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Spectrum of how compassionate I am towards people. And I'm like, I'm. I'm myself here. I have zero compassion for myself. And then I. Let's just take my most disenfranchised person.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And I'm like, they're doing the best they can. Give them a break.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And then you're probably like, a third of the way to the left of that person.

[Monica Padman]

Interesting. Well, first of all, I'll say this. I think I have less compassion. I was like, bad. But I think it's true. The closer you are to me, the less compassion I have.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Which in a way is natural. I think there's two things happening. Once is, One is I think you're capable of anything. So my expectations of you are high. Two is. Yes. Family. You don't feel bad. I don't feel bad for my brother or myself. Well, I do occasionally, but it's definitely a sliding scale.

[Monica Padman]

Yes. And it comes in and out. It's not a constant. And I have to almost. I have to look for it. I have to search for it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. I have to do that with Kristen. I have to remind myself she's a human being trying her best to get through this life.

[Monica Padman]

Yes. Yeah. So I think it's. For me, it's more that we're close. So by sort of default, I'm your brother. I don't give you as much.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

It's not even.

[Monica Padman]

I don't think compassion. It's just like, I don't give you as much leeway. I do have compassion for you.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. Privately. By yourself.

[Monica Padman]

This is why. No, I do. I think I am pretty good. I think. And I think you're good at building the other person up.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Like, if you're down, I think I'm pretty good at being like, that's silly.

[Dax Shepard]

Like, come on, tiger. You can do it, little buddy.

[Monica Padman]

Let's go, champ.

[Dax Shepard]

Come on, champ.

[Monica Padman]

You're being too hard on yourself.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Here. I think I have something.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

I think you could break it down into finer categories in. And so I think if you're hurting and suffering, I do have a lot of compassion for you.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

If you're annoyed and angry.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

And it's about something I think you could fix. I have no compassion for you.

[Monica Padman]

God.

[Dax Shepard]

That. No, that. No. But I think that's actually.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I think within this broad umbrella of compassion, I think. I think there's categories. Because when you're suffering, I feel really bad for you.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, me too. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

But when you're just, like, eye rolling your eyes off your head for a.

[Monica Padman]

Day, that's also because you make. You think that's related to you.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. One of my problems, well established, that I can own, is I'm uncomfortable with peop. With people. I love being angry.

[Monica Padman]

I know. It's just like you get angry and.

[Dax Shepard]

And then I get angry. I'm like, oh, we're playing angry. Okay, well, can play angry too.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Fight anger with anger.

[Monica Padman]

Bad.

[Dax Shepard]

But you need to fight anger with love and compassion. Yeah, but I don't always do that. I fight anger with anger. I'm a work in progress. Monica. I'm not.

[Monica Padman]

I know.

[Dax Shepard]

We all not there. I'm not there.

[Monica Padman]

We all are. We all are.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you think any of that's true in reverse? Like, if I'm sad and broken. You're. You're very. Yes.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, that's.

[Dax Shepard]

You've seen me sad.

[Monica Padman]

It's horrible. It's weird. It's like the closer you are to me as a person, the less leeway I give. I'm hardest on those people, but I definitely care the most.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure, sure.

[Monica Padman]

So in that way, if they're hurting, I care way more about my family or you or Jess or anyone who's, like, hurting.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

Over that stranger who I give a ton of leeway to.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Monica Padman]

So it's just all trade offs. Yeah, it is all trade offs. But the leeway thing is just because. Yeah, you're right. It's like, I know you don't have to do this Like, I know you know better. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I've evaluated you as very powerful.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And so I think you have the power, you know.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

It's a compliment you'd rather live without, basically.

[Monica Padman]

You give me a lot of compliments.

[Dax Shepard]

That I know that are bad. I know I have to explain them to you, which is not the sign of a great compliment.

[Monica Padman]

It's really not. But I'm glad you said that because I think I've thought that before, and I think maybe I've said, like, you don't give me the benefit of the doubt that you give other people. And I don't like that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And so confirmation.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Which is. I mean, I get it. I get it. And I think I.

[Dax Shepard]

But by the way, it's both.

[Monica Padman]

Goes both ways.

[Dax Shepard]

I want you to know that. I just put all that together. It's not like I've been sitting on that. And then when you bring it up, I gaslight you and deny it.

[Monica Padman]

No, I know.

[Dax Shepard]

I really just now decided to evaluate that.

[Monica Padman]

Funny, though, because when we bring things up, it's so quickly like, no, that's crazy.

[Dax Shepard]

No, I just gotta defend myself.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. You just get in defense mode. And then it takes, like, six years. And then it's like, oh, actually, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

We have to be getting along really well for me to open up that vault and take a little peek in there.

[Monica Padman]

What's going on? God, that's. Why do you think in marriage it's easier? Sometimes I think this, if we're in, like, a fight or if something's going on between us. Sometimes I'm like, it's kind of shitty because we. Me and you can let things drag out for a while. Do you know what I mean?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, used to.

[Monica Padman]

Used to.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

But when you're married, sometimes I'm like. I think this type of thing comes up in marriages all the time, but then they have dinner and then they have the bed time. Like, by the end of the night, you're forced to sort of figure it out. And I don't think, well, unless you don't. And I think that would be really.

[Dax Shepard]

A lot of people don't.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

A lot of people give their partner the silent treatment for, like, three days at a time.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. That's tough.

[Dax Shepard]

That's rough. Yeah. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And like, living in that environment. But I guess that's like. That's a benefit of marriage, is. I think it can expedite a resolution.

[Dax Shepard]

Because you're forced to work.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Which I think is.

[Dax Shepard]

It's like if you're on a sailboat together in the middle of the ocean. Like you're going to fig. You got to figure it out or.

[Monica Padman]

You get thrown overboard.

[Dax Shepard]

I even see this with the kids. There's times where they have all the time in the world to fight and be. And then there's other times where it's like, no, everyone's got to get their together. We can feel that. But I have been guilty. That very male pattern of shutting down, like when the conflict is overwhelming emotionally for me, I have just completely. I just disassociate for a while.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

This is on topic for Kimberly.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, it is.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

There's only one fact and it's not really a fact. She mentioned olfactory reference syndrome, which is a core fear that you smell.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, right.

[Monica Padman]

Which I thought was very interesting.

[Dax Shepard]

I wonder what percentage. Way less than toe fungus probably.

[Monica Padman]

Right? Definitely. But then I wanted to look up list of phobia. Like interesting phobia. Really quick.

[Dax Shepard]

Does this account for. Oh, some people smell.

[Monica Padman]

Well, I don't think they have. Well, they might have it that like.

[Dax Shepard]

They might be right to have this.

[Monica Padman]

That crossover is going to be sad. The people who are obsessed with it and it's true.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

But I think the people who are obsessed with it is probably not true because they're probably going to such extreme lengths to make sure it's not true. But then they're just obsessed with it. O. I wonder if people who score higher on the cognitive smell test are higher likelihood to have this disease.

[Dax Shepard]

Right? I mean, super smeller tasters.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. I really hope they come back and tell me I'm a super smeller.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, you really want?

[Kimberly Quinlan]

I really want.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I had a friend, he's deceased now, so I can tell this story. We would go to the movies sometimes together and just sitting next to each other, I could smell his breath and it wasn't.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Some people I know.

[Dax Shepard]

It's not like bad breast milk. It's like something genetic. There's a sharpness. I know that just exists. I don't think they can go brush their teeth.

[Monica Padman]

I think it's halitosis.

[Dax Shepard]

Simple chronic halitosis.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Xious.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I know.

[Dax Shepard]

I feel so bad.

[Monica Padman]

I know.

[Dax Shepard]

Or people that are dealing with really intense vaginal smells or they have really stinky balls. This happens. I so much compassion.

[Monica Padman]

Because stinky balls, though. Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

You feel like you should be able to knock that out.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

It's not. It's not internal, so you should be able to get.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

True.

[Dax Shepard]

But like my balls once in a while in Fact, it just happened when I was with Aaron down in Texas because we were in on the bus and blah, blah, blah. And when I was going pee, I was like, aaron, I think I can smell my balls. Which is so disgusting.

[Monica Padman]

I just hadn't showered.

[Dax Shepard]

But even when I don't shower, that doesn't generally happen. I don't know what was going. Stress, whatever. Too much emotional.

[Monica Padman]

I don't know, probably stress.

[Dax Shepard]

But that's something that happens to me twice a year.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm like, oh, my God, I can smell me balls while I'm going pee at this urinal. I'm out to toe fungus stinky balls. Is there anything else I can say?

[Monica Padman]

No. Listen, I think that that is not the same, though, as, like, if you're having like a vulva vagina issue.

[Dax Shepard]

Flora issue.

[Monica Padman]

Yes. Then that is not like you can just take a shower and then that's.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, and also, I've known people, like, they eat. They eat clean. Quote clean. Which this is on topic as well.

[Monica Padman]

Sure.

[Dax Shepard]

But, like, they're doing everything right.

[Monica Padman]

I have heard, like, lemon.

[Dax Shepard]

Lemon.

[Monica Padman]

Like, lemon's good.

[Dax Shepard]

You put it in your vagina or you just eat it.

[Monica Padman]

No, no, no, don't do that. No one do that. You eat it and because it. I mean, stuff you eat, like, well.

[Dax Shepard]

And you're supposed to put lemon in a garbage disposal that smells.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I'm sorry.

[Dax Shepard]

That is the prescription for a stinky.

[Monica Padman]

Is that the same thing?

[Dax Shepard]

Well, if there's a commercial for vaginal flora and said is your garbage disposal.

[Monica Padman]

No, it's really scary. And also, the vagina smells, so. Or the vault. The vagina. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't think it's the Volvo. Let's be clear here.

[Monica Padman]

I can't believe I still get confused. It changes smells throughout the month.

[Dax Shepard]

Surely flies are here. They're not here.

[Monica Padman]

Flies are here. Not here. Ovulation. I mean, there's just so much hormonal stuff going on on that the vagina.

[Dax Shepard]

Can you get irony? Because blood's coming out. Get that very specific irony smell.

[Monica Padman]

Gosh.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, yeah, you should. After everything I've said with my ball stinking. And my toe. Disgusting toe.

[Monica Padman]

You know what's upsetting is, like, people.

[Dax Shepard]

Will still like me.

[Monica Padman]

Yes. And they won't like me because people. People will be like, ew. Women are periods. Ew. But, like, they'll take. And then they'll take your tongue fungus. Be like, that's hot. He's even hotter now because of his toes.

[Dax Shepard]

He's disgusting.

[Monica Padman]

No, but sometimes I can smell Not. Not just like, if I'm peeing, I can smell if my period is coming.

[Dax Shepard]

He's on the. Yeah, he's on the prowl. Oh, I think that's standard. God, someone has to say it out loud so all women can go. Me too.

[Monica Padman]

I guess it's me. Yeah, I guess it's gotta be me who says it out loud. Okay, so phobias. I wanted to talk about some ones people probably haven't heard of. There's haphophobia. That's a morbid fear of being touched.

[Dax Shepard]

Haphophobia.

[Monica Padman]

H A P, H E phobia. Or maybe it's hapophobia.

[Dax Shepard]

Sounds weird, though, to say I have haphophobia.

[Monica Padman]

Doraphobia. The dread of touching the skin or furniture of an animal. I don't have that. But I don't know, maybe I should claim to have that. And then that's why I'm not a huge fan of dogs.

[Dax Shepard]

That's great. That's a good. That's a good plan. I. I only have half. Adora phobia. I don't like to touch fish.

[Monica Padman]

I thought you were making a joke because. Half a phobia.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh. Oh, my God. I didn't even realize that. So I guess I have two phobias. A half of a phobia of doraphobia. But yeah. Reptile scales, Fish.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

I know, gross.

[Dax Shepard]

Chickens, feet. Their talons, whatever we call them.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I don't like that.

[Dax Shepard]

Hooves.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, the tail of a possum I'd rather die than touch.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, really? What's the tail like?

[Dax Shepard]

Skin. You know.

[Monica Padman]

That's disgusting. That's disgusting. Yeah, I don't like that at all. Aramophobia, That's a morbid dread of being alone. That's sad. Yeah, that's our friend Won.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm so wong wee. Yeah, I have. What's it called?

[Monica Padman]

Aramophobia.

[Dax Shepard]

I have aramophobia. I'm so lonely all the time. Even when I'm at a sporting event.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, God.

[Dax Shepard]

Surrounded by people.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. Ergophobia, that's a fear. Do you know this?

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, no, I adhd. I don't really have it, but I want to play something. It just reminded me that I had saved something to play. Okay, it's an update on Steven Seagal.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, I did a voice and then I did Prior.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Did he send it to you?

[Monica Padman]

Yes, he did. He did? Yes. Okay, we'll come back to that. Ergophobia, a fear of or aversion to work.

[Dax Shepard]

Don't have that.

[Monica Padman]

I don't have that either. Do you want to play it now? Do you want to break up our list?

[Dax Shepard]

No, no, keep going.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. Hypnophobia, A morbid fear of sleep. That's interesting.

[Dax Shepard]

Morbid fear of sleep. I might have a touch of that.

[Monica Padman]

Brontophobia. Oh, and abnormal fear of thunder. Oh, I think a lot of dogs have it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. I love thunder. Oh.

[Monica Padman]

The same word serves as the root of words, such as brontosaurus, which literally means thunder lizard.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, that makes sense.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Woke last night to the sound of thunder. How far off? I said sat and wondered. Started humming a song from 1962.

[Monica Padman]

This is a ding, ding, ding.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

This is kakor Ha Phobia.

[Dax Shepard]

Holy smokes. A fear of saying crazy words.

[Monica Padman]

Coria. Okay. It's an abnormal fear of failure. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

These are sad.

[Monica Padman]

It's a sad list. Oh, I have this. 100% aphidiophobia. An abnormal fear of snakes.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay.

[Monica Padman]

I didn't know that.

[Dax Shepard]

It's an abnormal fear of snakes. I think it's irrational. They made it the bad animal in the Bible for a reason. I think we all innately are a little freaked out by these things that slither around.

[Monica Padman]

But when I was on my hike, well, first about the bears, but then I was like, I'll definitely probably see a snake.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And I got very anxious and I was like, I gotta be with this hike now.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I really, really hate snakes. And my friend Kiersten has this more than me. She doesn't even like. Like if there's a picture of a snake or a cord. Well, I guess if you try to make it like a snake and a dancy snake or I'm stuffy of a snake. Like, she can't handle it.

[Dax Shepard]

She hates that. Yeah. Yeah. I have a friend that had that with frogs. And then when saw got. Went to therapy over and now can deal with frogs.

[Monica Padman]

That's. That is abnormal.

[Dax Shepard]

He worked at a pet store and everything was great. He was like, star employee. And then the guy the owner brought bought a bunch of frogs, and he couldn't do it. He had to. He told the guy, like, I have to quit.

[Monica Padman]

Stop.

[Dax Shepard]

Cannot be around frogs.

[Monica Padman]

Did he know before that, or it was like, yeah.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

What?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. He was so valuable and he really ran the whole pet store that the guy did stop selling frogs. But, like, he was moving through the world on high, high alert for frogs. And it became even, like. So what's great is he went to therapy over it. I'm gonna add, he wasn't born in this country.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

So kind of. I really What I really liked about it is it broke my stereotype of, like, oh, Latino men don't want to go to therapy.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

He now has a frog keychain, which he could have never had. He said, like, this would have driven me crazy, but that was part of his, like, submersion therapy. So now he has a little frog keychain, and now he's fine with frogs. We had to go through a whole process. It's really sweet. I was so, like, touched that he shared that story with me. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Also, that's a literal ding, ding, ding. That's exactly what Kimberly does.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

Is like, get people over their fears. Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. It's very sweet. You want to hear Steven Seagal now?

[Monica Padman]

Sure.

[Dax Shepard]

Or do you have a couple more yours you're hot to get? Yeah. Go ahead.

[Monica Padman]

Give me taphophobia, an irrational or disproportionate fear of being buried alive.

[Dax Shepard]

Again, irrational.

[Monica Padman]

Well, I know that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I don't think about that often.

[Dax Shepard]

It doesn't cross my mind. I don't think that's ever going to happen to me.

[Monica Padman]

Oh. But, you know, that happened to that little girl or boy. I forget.

[Dax Shepard]

Little person.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. A little person got buried alive at the beach and, like, it was, like, caving in on her.

[Dax Shepard]

Or one of these, like when kids bury each other.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. They were, like, playing and they went so deep, and then it, like. And that the kid died, and they're, like, standing around, like, trying to get her out, and they said, I know.

[Dax Shepard]

Stop telling the story.

[Monica Padman]

What did you say? God.

[Dax Shepard]

Please.

[Monica Padman]

You're not my friend today.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, I am.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm your best friend.

[Monica Padman]

I know. Phobophobia is an excessive fear of acquiring a phobia. That sounds like something I would have.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, you might have that. Yeah. Like, even hearing about phobias will give you the phobias.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, exactly. Oh, my God, there's one. You're so mad. You want to play the streaming videos so bad.

[Dax Shepard]

I have anxiety about how many phobias there are. Maybe. I think if I know how many are on the list.

[Monica Padman]

So you have a fear of list.

[Dax Shepard]

That are too long. Yes. Or Taylor Swift's entire commencement speech. I have certain fears of things being very long, I guess.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God. Except not.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you have any real fears? I do have a single phobia. Maybe more than one, but there's one I know about. I am a bit. I'm a bit claustrophobic.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, you are. I'm not.

[Dax Shepard]

You're not at all. I don't think you like being confined.

[Monica Padman]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

Trapped.

[Monica Padman]

No, I wouldn't say I like it, but I don't have an excessive fear of it.

[Dax Shepard]

If I could start to get the hunch, like, oh, we're going to be locked in. I got really panicky. Have you ever watched Spelunking?

[Monica Padman]

I'm never watching that.

[Dax Shepard]

You know what it is?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Isn't that like water based?

[Dax Shepard]

No. They're exploring caves and they're going in these tunnels that are getting tighter and tighter. And I'm like, how can you possibly enjoy that?

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

It fucking freaks me out to no end. Or that famous. There was a book and a dock and all kinds of stuff. It was two climbers. One fell in a crevasse.

[Monica Padman]

The other guy had 127 hours.

[Dax Shepard]

No, that was the one with Franco. This guy was like. Fell into a crevice and was, like looking up, and there's no way out. And he's just there and there and there and there. And at some point he decides to go deeper into the crevice. And he found a fucking time tunnel that led him out of the ice pack and he ended up living. But the notion of having to decide to go even deeper into the crevice, I'm like, that is. Oh, we gotta. We gotta. We gotta right the ship here. I'm panicked. A lot of people are panicked. Let's hear a couple more.

[Monica Padman]

Hold on. Okay, this one's not scary. It's fear of being. Unless you. Unless you have this. Abhobia. It's a fear of palindromes.

[Dax Shepard]

Weird.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, there's. There's like, interesting things out there.

[Dax Shepard]

There are.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, I guess I'll stop. Hold on.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Florapho, philophobia. Fear of love. Oh, that's a sad one. That's like.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't understand that one.

[Monica Padman]

Well, you don't have it.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, we ready for Steven Seal.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God. Sure came.

[Dax Shepard]

I was in Kazakhstan. I think I was somewhere crazy in the world the other day, maybe six months ago, something like that. And there was a big. How do you say in English, like, gathering or convention?

[Monica Padman]

Well, yeah, convention.

[Dax Shepard]

They were doing all this, you know, demonstrations and fighting and competition and all the old senpai. All the old, you know, k. Were there and they saw me come in. This was, like, chilling. And, oh, you know, he's here, he's here. And they made me come and sit with the other masters and they introduced me as their senpai. Wow.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

What a tremendous honor.

[Dax Shepard]

Tremendous honor. In their 70s, who could kill most of the guys who think they're great warriors that are in their 20s or 30s, kill them. Seven years old. They believe you can kill someone with a body shot. Most people who will hear this will go, oh, come on, that's a joke. Count me in. Well, amongst real martial arts masters. It's not a joke exactly.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

I mean, I take for example, one.

[Monica Padman]

Of my favorite martial arts masters ever, Sousei Masuyama, who invented Kyokushin karate.

[Dax Shepard]

There's a man who passed away. I'm going to pause it there and just say the notion that he says. How do you say in English, what are you fucking talking? You're acting like English isn't your first language.

[Monica Padman]

No, that's the part.

[Dax Shepard]

That guy goes on to tell the story of a great master.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And of course, Stephen goes. He was a very close personal friend of mine. I know, it's endless. How do you say in English? And he was like. He stopped himself just short of doing like a really bad Asian accent.

[Monica Padman]

He's like, oh, well, don't do it.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Kimberly Quinlan]

My God.

[Monica Padman]

Jesus Christ. Okay. Love you.

[Dax Shepard]

I love you. Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry plus in the Wondry app or on Apple podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short [e-mail] survey in a quiet suburb, a community is shattered by the death of a beloved wife and mother. But this tragic loss of life quickly turns into something even darker.

[Monica Padman]

Her husband had tried to hire a.

[Dax Shepard]

Hitman on the dark web to kill her. And she wasn't the only target.

[Monica Padman]

Because buried in the depth of the.

[Dax Shepard]

Internet is the Kill List, a cache.

[Monica Padman]

Of chilling documents containing names, photos, addresses.

[Dax Shepard]

And specific instructions for people's murders.

[Monica Padman]

This podcast is the true story of.

[Dax Shepard]

How I ended up in a race against time to warn those who lives were in danger.

[Monica Padman]

And it turns out convincing a total.

[Dax Shepard]

Stranger someone wants them dead is not easy. Follow Kill List on the Wandri app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Monica Padman]

You can listen to Kill List and more.

[Dax Shepard]

Exhibit C. True crime shows like Morbid early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus. Check out exhibit C in the Wondery.

[Monica Padman]

App for all your true crime listening.