Kumail Nanjiani Returns

Summary

Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard: Kumail Nanjiani Returns (January 12, 2026)

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Episode Overview

In this engaging episode, Dax Shepard, Monica Padman, and returning guest Kumail Nanjiani dive deep into the complexities of body transformation, masculinity, public scrutiny, the personal challenges of success and failure in Hollywood, and the journey toward self-acceptance. The conversation is candid, humorous, and frequently self-reflective, traversing topics ranging from gym culture and foot fetishes to the pain of online backlash and exploring “the messiness of being human.” Kumail’s new standup special "Night Thoughts" serves as a jumping-off point for exploring vulnerability, identity, and growth.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Catching Up & Gym Talk

[03:34–12:15]

• Kumail and Dax reconnect, discussing how their bodies have changed over the years and the unique experience of being “buff” as comedians.
• Kumail shares funny anecdotes about hugging Dax ("like hugging the corner of a building") and embracing his new physique.
• The trio riffs on society’s reactions to body transformations, especially among male comedians.

Quote:

"Muscles, they can't hurt you. They're decorative, which is totally true. These muscles are decorative. They haven't done an honest day's work in their life."
— Kumail Nanjiani, [11:59]

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2. Masculinity, Male Intimacy, and Body Image

[12:15–22:20]

• Dax and Kumail discuss the emotional and psychological aspects of working out, such as the control and objectivity it brings to their otherwise subjective lives.
• They detail how getting muscular changes how other men interact with and touch them, often more than women do—expressing a longing among men for accepted physical affection.
• Monica questions when a partner is allowed to weigh in on changes like getting too buff, leading to a nuanced conversation about acceptance and change in relationships.

Quote:

"Did you get more attention from girls when you got buff? I was like, no, more from guys."
— Kumail Nanjiani, [19:53]

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3. Racism, Stereotypes, and Hollywood’s Narrow Roles

[14:11–15:11, 22:20–24:33]

• Kumail describes a casting director urging him to be less muscular, sparking thoughts about racial expectations and typecasting.
• He reflects on a “stay in your lane” energy, pointing to the subtle ways industry bias operates, particularly with South Asian actors.

Quote:

"It's weird because there was some of that reaction to me getting buff. And I can't not think that...like, you know, stay in your lane kind of thing. Like, that's not what we want from you."
— Kumail Nanjiani, [14:24]

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4. The Internal vs External Experience of Success

[29:30–31:10, 36:09–38:15, 43:50–45:55]

• Dax and Kumail bond over experiences of professional success quickly being followed by public backlash and self-doubt, recognizing how quickly circumstances can shift in the entertainment industry.
• Kumail talks about his own sensitivity to criticism and the challenge of separating the emotional highs and lows (“divorcing the experience of making something from the result”).

Quote:

"For me, the biggest project of the last few years has been trying to divorce my experience of making something from the result from the reaction to it."
— Kumail Nanjiani, [50:01]

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5. Dealing with Public Backlash and Vulnerability

[37:10–41:34]

• Kumail details being subject to a massive wave of online ridicule after posting a casual photo during the pandemic, triggering deep-seated insecurities from childhood.
• The group discusses the emotional toll of social media, especially as public figures, and the paradox of wanting recognition but being hurt by mass opinion.

Quote:

"This made me feel like a little kid...it was just people making fun of my appearance. Literally 10,000 comments fucking destroyed me."
— Kumail Nanjiani, [40:11]

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6. Comedy, Status, and Artistic Risks

[27:06–33:35]

• The guests debate whether being physically fit/buff is incompatible with being funny, with nods to Adam Sandler’s advice (“buff isn’t funny, buddy”) and the example of Carrot Top.
• Kumail and Dax argue that it is not physicality but self-awareness—and not taking oneself too seriously—that makes comedy work.

Quote:

"I think you have to have that level of awareness. It's when you take yourself too seriously—I think that is the death of comedy."
— Kumail Nanjiani, [29:30]

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7. Night Thoughts & The Challenges of Self-Acceptance

[54:31–55:23, 66:09–67:22]

• Kumail’s standup special "Night Thoughts" is praised for its honesty about anxiety, insecurity, and the absurdity of late-night existential thoughts.
• He and Dax reflect on how nearly everyone struggles with feeling “worthy of love,” and the continual project of learning self-acceptance.

Quote:

"You are worthy of love. Period. I'm only now learning that I need to lean into the fear...The things that scare me are the things I need to do."
— Kumail Nanjiani, [54:12]

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8. Relationships, Change, and "Exceptionality"

[22:20–24:33, 69:44–74:54]

• The group discusses how partners adjust (or don’t) to changes in each other’s appearance and routines.
• Monica and Dax, in a later fact check, discuss growing up as an “exception” based on race, and what that means for identity and motivation later in life.

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9. Navigating Ethics, Waste, and Consumerism

[97:01–106:08]

• An extended philosophical conversation touches on the ethics of waste, consumerism, and the nuanced, personal nature of morality. Examples are drawn from parenting, buying habits, and restaurant leftovers.
• The hosts urge listeners to focus on authentic, personal ethics and resist the urge to judge others for ethical choices outside of clear, agreed-upon moral norms.

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10. Light-Hearted and Personal Moments

[03:34–09:00, 85:07–87:38]

• The episode is peppered with playful banter, quirky confessions (like Monica’s reluctance to rescue dropped soap from the toilet), and friendly jabs that keep the tone light amid deeper subjects.
• The closing fact check segment explores topics from jaw-muscle emotions and teeth dreams to Indian thumb genetics.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "When I hugged you, I felt it before I saw it." – Kumail [05:23]
• "I used to grind my teeth a lot… But honestly, massaging the jaw muscles has helped relieve that." – Kumail [09:57]
• "The pump is better than sex." – Kumail [15:27]
• "What I get the most out of it, is that I'm really right there, staring at this thing [the weight]. It makes you present." – Kumail [16:20]
• "I've convinced myself I had rhabdo." – Dax [15:45]
• "Self aggrandizement and self pity are the exact same sides of the coin." – Dax [49:34]
• "You have to think you’re much smarter than everyone you’re talking to." (On playing dumb roles) – Dax [32:09]
• "I am not anything... We are truly nothing to you. This should not be any kind of standard or anything." – Kumail [61:12]

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Important Timestamps

• Gym banter & body image: [03:34–13:05]
• Working out & emotional health: [12:15–15:11]
• Masculinity and male intimacy: [19:16–20:05]
• Relationship concerns with changing bodies: [22:20–23:56]
• Discussion on racial bias & expectations: [14:24–15:11, 58:31–58:49]
• Hollywood heartbreak & career volatility: [43:00–45:06]
• Public scrutiny & online backlash: [37:10–41:34]
• Comedy and fitness controversy: [27:06–31:10]
• 'Night Thoughts' and self-acceptance: [54:31–55:23, 66:09–67:22]
• Ethics, waste, and personal morality: [97:01–106:08]
• Quirky life moments, fact check: [85:07–87:38, 109:22–118:05]

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Tone & Style

The episode is a blend of earnest self-examination, irreverent humor, and supportive camaraderie. Kumail brings a self-deprecating, insightful honesty, while Dax and Monica match his vulnerability with humor and relatable admissions. The conversation is freely associating and peppered with playful asides, but always circles back to introspection and growth.

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Final Thoughts

"Kumail Nanjiani Returns" stands out as a deeply personal and vulnerable conversation about the costs and rewards of transformation—physical and emotional. Both funny and moving, it highlights how growth—and surviving public life—means confronting insecurity, societal expectations, and the limits we place on ourselves and others.

Highly recommended segments:

• Kumail’s reflections on body image and male vulnerability ([11:59–13:41])
• Discussion of public backlash and the pain of viral ridicule ([40:11–41:26])
• The debate about comedy, muscles, and status ([27:06–30:32])

Kumail’s special, Night Thoughts, is streaming on Hulu.

Transcript

[Dax Shepard]

Wondry plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now. Join Wondry plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Rather and I'm joined by Monica Mouz.

[Monica Padman]

Hi.

[Dax Shepard]

Today we have a returning guest. I think this is Kamau's third appearance on the show. He had a solo. He had Rob. He and Rob Men's Body, Rob Mack, as you'll hear, which I still need to text him and find out if this I got to verify this claim.

[Monica Padman]

It's real. I saw it online.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, it is okay. Kumail Nani is an actor, a standup comedian and a screenwriter. He was in the Big Sick, of course, Silicon Valley, Stuber Eternals, the Lovebirds, and he has a standup special that is streaming right now on Hulu that I loved called Night Thoughts. Please enjoy our friend, Kumail Nanjiani. We are supported by Apple Watch. All right, so here's a truth that made me feel way better about myself. Most people quit their New Year's fitness resolutions by the second Friday of January. They even call it Quitter's Day, January 9th, which is wild. We all start the year with these big goals, and then life happens, motivation fades, and we just quit. But here's the thing. This year, we're quitting. Quitting. An Apple Watch is basically designed to not let you bail. It tracks your activities, sends you those little nudges when you haven't stood in a while, celebrates when you close your activity rings, and keeps you accountable with streaks and reminders. It's like having a workout partner on your wrist that won't let you off the hook. So if you've been thinking about getting serious about your fitness goals or honestly just making it past January 9 this time, Apple Watch is the move. Let's do this. This is the year we all quit. Quitting iPhone 11 or later requ we are supported by quints. Winter in LA is weird. It'll be 75 degrees one day. Then suddenly you need an actual coat. I've been rotating through the same three jackets for years, and honestly, they're looking rough. So I finally upgraded my winter wardrobe with quince. And the difference is wild. Their Mongolian cashmere sweaters are ridiculously soft. Like, I didn't know cashmere could feel this good without costing a mortgage payment. And their wool coats and Italian leather outerwear, they're the kind of pieces that actually last.

[Monica Padman]

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[Dax Shepard]

Oh, you did? Quince curtains. QCs.

[Monica Padman]

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[Dax Shepard]

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[Kumail Nanjiani]

Your friend makes sparkly water?

[Dax Shepard]

No. Do you know Ethan Suplee?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

You do? Yeah, yeah, yeah. The most special guy on the planet, right?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

He's a great guy.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, he's magic. But he texts me out of the blue.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

He had a big body journey as well.

[Dax Shepard]

He has the most impressive.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

He had the most impressive. Yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Those before and afters. And I worked with him on without a paddle 21 years ago. He was probably down to 330 from 410.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

410.

[Dax Shepard]

That was his max in Butterfly Effect, that movie. Monica's rejoining us for the listener. She squirted.

[Monica Padman]

I did take the option to squirt on my Kumail.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Don't say that. Don't give in. This is how you. Hold on.

[Monica Padman]

I have to pick my battles here.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Okay, well, that one, though. That's not one of the ones you picked.

[Monica Padman]

It's not. You'd be shocked.

[Dax Shepard]

But Butterfly Effect, I don't know if you ever saw that movie with Ashton. Exactly. Ethan was 410 in that.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

How tall is he? Like six' two. Max.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, he's big. He's probably six' one or six' two, four' ten. You know, that's a massive amount of weight. I don't know where he's at now, but if you follow him on Instagram, he's like, clearly in the 230 range.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

We used to go to the same gym. So.

[Dax Shepard]

Is that how you know him?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I know him just from being around.

[Dax Shepard]

Being a famous actor.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Nice guy. Him and TJ did a movie called Unstoppable with Denzel. Who's.

[Dax Shepard]

The train movie.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

That is.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, there's a very famous black actor.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Or John David's dad. Yeah. So I think. I think I met him through TJ back then and we kind of stayed in touch. But then I would run into him at the gym and I worked with his sister in law, Juliet Lewis.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, yes. You know your stuff.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

It's so good to see you. It's been a long time.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I haven't seen you in a while. We've texted, but we haven't really seen you. You look big. You look big. What are you doing?

[Monica Padman]

Do you like it? Let's just start with, do you like it?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I like it. When I hugged you, I felt it before I saw it.

[Monica Padman]

And did you, like, bounce off? I'm worried people are like bouncing off.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Emily says when I first did that, she was like, it's like having sex with the corner of a building.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

And that's what it felt like hugging you. It was like trying to hug the corner of a building.

[Dax Shepard]

Corner of a building, yes. We text each other often. You rob McElhenny and I.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Well, Rob Mac now. He changed his name. No, he did not legally change his name.

[Dax Shepard]

No, he didn't.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yep. In the credits it says Rob Mack.

[Dax Shepard]

That's so helpful because I could never nail McElhenney.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I know. I've never said it with confidence. My name is Nanjiani. Yeah. McElhenny. I don't know where to stress. Is it McElhenny Gallany.

[Dax Shepard]

And I once said his name wrong on here. And he texted me and he said, listen, this is how it works. After the C, if it's followed by.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

A vowel, I'm checked out already.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I've already stopped paying attention.

[Dax Shepard]

You want to know the rule? Like MacDonald's because it's a little C. And then the consonant, that's Mac. I must have this wrong if he changed his name to Mac. Mick. Yeah. That's Mc.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

That's McDonald's.

[Dax Shepard]

McDonald's. If there's a vowel, it's McElhenny.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I never knew that.

[Dax Shepard]

It's too much. I'm glad he went with Mac.

[Monica Padman]

That's wild that he did that. That's a huge identity shit.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I believe he big press conference about it.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, he did?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I don't think he had a conference, but I think there was a press release.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Wow. This is like Kirby was Baptista Baptist.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Great.

[Dax Shepard]

Kirby's now just Kirby.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Just one named Kirby. Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Isn't it cool? She said she second guessed it a bunch, but she's sticking with it.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Just Kirby.

[Dax Shepard]

Just Kirby.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I think of Kirby as like Mario's buddy, the little cloud guy.

[Dax Shepard]

I think of the vacuum cleaner from the 80s.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I've never heard of that beautiful machine.

[Dax Shepard]

Heavy metal design.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Vacuum cleaners in the 80s were gorgeous.

[Dax Shepard]

They really were.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah, they were pretty. They weren't trying to be sleek. They were like, this is what I am.

[Dax Shepard]

And even that very famous artist in New York who has a factory co. Some of his first work that got all the acclaim was just these Lucite glass boxes with these vacuums in them as they came from Sears. And those are worth millions.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

What was he saying?

[Dax Shepard]

I have problems to crawl into the mind of.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

You have problems with objects being co opted and called art?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. He didn't invent that vacuum cleaner. If he invented the vacuum cleaner and then put it in the box, that's fine.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I used to be like that and now I'm like, you know what? If anything gets a reaction, it can be art. So if they can articulate, like the big thing was a toilet seat hanging on the wall. People were like, this is art. Well, in that context, I guess it is art. I'm not paying a million dollars for two vacuum cleaners in a box of Lucite. But if you can get away with.

[Dax Shepard]

It, get away with it.

[Monica Padman]

But this art.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

My foot is your foot art. I bet to some people it is, Eric.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, that's.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, we just talked about it.

[Monica Padman]

With the foot fetish.

[Dax Shepard]

We have a friend with a foot fetish.

[Monica Padman]

He does like feet.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Do you really? Yeah, I mean, feet is a thing.

[Dax Shepard]

He's safe, he's married. There's no threat.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, there's no threat.

[Dax Shepard]

But he is obsessed with Monica's feet. And he one time took a cheese grater to them.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, and he really went at it.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

What are you.

[Dax Shepard]

What are you up to?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

What the fuck are you talking about? He's safe. He just wants cheese. Grated my feet. Your bar is so low, Monica.

[Monica Padman]

I know, I'm sorry. I have to take it. I can get it.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Wait, was he getting the dry skin?

[Dax Shepard]

Can you relate, though, Kumail? If, like, a girl wanted to do anything to my feet, I'd be like, yes, thank you.

[Monica Padman]

But I didn't do it. I was receiving.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm saying I'm putting myself in your shoes. Oh, woman is interested in my feet. I'm just so flattered by that.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I feel quite self conscious about my feet. I've been on set sometimes and they're like, all right, could you have your socks off for this? I'm like, I need a week's notice before you could do that.

[Monica Padman]

And what do you do during the week to get them prepped?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I have gotten pedicures. I've only gotten like two or three in my life, but it's such a good.

[Dax Shepard]

It is heavenly. It has a bigger impact than it should.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

It really makes you feel good. I got. Somebody was massaging my jaw muscles today, and I started crying about my dead grandmother. I don't know what's stored over here. Like, there's a lot going on in here. Years of trauma right here. And so I'm like, I need to work this out.

[Dax Shepard]

I just read something, take it with a grain of salt. I read it online, but it was explaining why the number was 67% of people have teeth loss, nightmares or something with their teeth.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I do.

[Dax Shepard]

So it's. The vast majority of people do. And the explanation is when you're very, very stressed, you clench your jaws a lot. And then when you go to sleep, your brain's kind of figuring out why you're 150%.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

That makes sense.

[Dax Shepard]

So it's all about kind of clenching your jaw. And that's how it manifests itself at night, which is fascinating.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I used to grind my teeth a lot. I have a mouth gu that I don't wear as often as I should. But honestly, massaging the jaw muscles has helped relieve that. I once got botox in my job.

[Dax Shepard]

I've heard this.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

It was just keeping me up at night.

[Dax Shepard]

When I was watching your stand up special, I was really transfixed on what an incredible jawline you have. And I was wondering, has getting jacked changed your jawline?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

People think I got jaw implants or something. I have not. I have gotten no work done. All I did was I got botox here.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

And then they were like, while you're here, you want to do your forehead too. And I did it. And I will never, never do it again.

[Dax Shepard]

Why not do it again?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Because I could not move my eyebrows. And I have very expressive eyebrows. And I had a job starting. I was gonna act in something two months from then, and I was just terrified. What if I can't do it? Because what happens is if you can't make the faces, you stop feeling those things as well.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, they work both directions.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

And so that is really. I mean, you know, I've gotten micro needling. I'm not a fucking monster. I want to make this clear. I don't have jaw implants. I guess I'll take it as a compliment.

[Dax Shepard]

You and I are in the exact same situation, which is when I saw your standup special. And I saw that you addressed all this. I was like, oh, my God. A. I love that this is happening. You're doing it in public. I've had these fantasies, like, do I try to address a lot of the stuff you address in the standup special, you get some.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Not to get into it. You get some real unfair nonsense sometimes.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, thank you. Thank you.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I do.

[Monica Padman]

You should get into it.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah. I really do feel that.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, well, great. But I will acknowledge I'll be watching with my children, like, parenthood. We watch with them. And I'm going, oh, my God, dude. I look so different. It looks like I got some kind of jaw implant or something. There's something about your neck getting thicker that changes your whole.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

It really does. Body fat goes down. I think that just changes the shape of your face. I had a friend today send me a picture of us together from, like, 12 years ago. And I was like, I look like a child.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, right out of the Gates Mani for Night thoughts, his stand up special, Kumail starts with, like, okay, the muscles. What do you say?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Like I say, don't be scared of the muscles. Muscles, they can't hurt you. They're decorative, which is totally true. These muscles are decorative. They haven't done an honest day's work in their life.

[Monica Padman]

You've used them for nothing.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I've used them for nothing except moving weight up and down 10 times. That is all they can do.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Have you ever had the thought over the last six years or something? When I add up how many hours I've spent exercising, I have to admit, I could have got a PhD in something. I mean, it's the most time I've committed to anything other than work. Wow.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

For me, it's gonna be video games, then work, then working out. Okay, probably, yeah. But I work out still every day. I love it. I don't know how not to work out if I'm stressed. Like, I had a rough day three days ago, and I was like, I'm gonna go work out. Because I cannot be around human beings right now.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm certain I will feel at least marginally better than I currently do if.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I go do that thing 100%. The only things that I know that I can do physically that make me feel better every single time. Working out and meditating, sometimes it completely turns the day around. Sometimes it just helps 3 degrees. But it always, 100% of the time helps.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, we just got into this, like, three episodes ago. It was so timely. I saw your standup Cause I was saying to Monica, it's really hard to evaluate yourself from inside your own eyes.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Right, of course.

[Dax Shepard]

But there are moments where I either see a picture or I see another dude that I can somehow acknowledge that's my exact size. And I go, oh, I'm too big. I might look stupid. But then I go, but I'm not gonna change because this is the result of this thing I have to do or I want to do, or it gives me however much comfort or something about it. These are now just the results. I was aiming for something for a while, but then the thing happened and now it is a confusing experience. Do you have that?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I do. I think the way people see me is not how I see myself. You know, when I started doing standup again, Emily was like, the biggest, weirdest thing for you is gonna be people experience it differently on stage. So the shit you used to do, you can't really do any. So when I was like, skinny and I would do, like fake arrogance, and now I can't do fake arrogance on stage because it comes off as real arrogance. So I can play with that because I do feel like I'm very self aware about this. I did have a casting director recently pull me aside and go, you got to bring this down. Because it does limit.

[Monica Padman]

Bring down the muscles.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And how did you take that? What thoughts sprung off from there?

[Monica Padman]

Also, is it racist?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Well, I mean, how much time you got?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I think there's some element of that.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

It's weird because there was some of that reaction to me getting buff. And I can't not think that that was an aspect of it that, like, you know, stay in your lane kind of thing. Like, that's not what we want from you kind of thing. I don't know. I can't guess to it, but it just feels like that's maybe a part of it. My reaction to the casting director saying that to me was at first it was panic one. I was like, have I missed out on parts because of this? And I can think of one situation where I did, but I get so much out of it. And so I have started, this is about a month ago, trying to work out differently because I do need it and it's not doing cardio instead, because the lifting of heavy weights does something for me. Like lifting big heavy things affects me, makes me feel my body differently. And I enjoy that feeling too much.

[Dax Shepard]

And I'll argue because I do both. So if I go hike six miles, I don't for the rest of the day. Have this great feeling in my body. I have kind of a tired feeling. My back's a little sore. When I have a great workout, I feel the Schwarzenegger pump.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I was just gonna say the arm. The pump is better than sex.

[Dax Shepard]

It is like this for all the.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Long, for everything to feel. It's like a little tight.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I love it. I'm addicted to it.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah, that's just the right amount. When you do a big workout in the next day, you got the Doms, you know, you're like, oh, yeah. Last time we talked about rabdo.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, that's the dream I've convinced myself I had.

[Monica Padman]

I always think I have it and I'm not working out.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

My favorite feeling, I mean, I don't know how your listeners feel like this. Laying on a bench with a weight above my body that's like, if I lose focus and drop this, I am going to the hospital.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

So it forces me to get out of my body. I'm not thinking about my problems or the thing I said wrong at the party or whether this thing is going to get picked up or how that audition, whatever it is, I have to respect this weight right now. Because if I don't, I'm going to.

[Dax Shepard]

It makes you present.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah, exactly. Which for lot of us is a big challenge. So that's what I get the most out of it, is that I'm really right there staring at this thing.

[Monica Padman]

Same with meditation. It is the same thing. It's giving.

[Dax Shepard]

You should get into motorcycle racing. That too. Does that same thing. If you think about what you have to do tomorrow, you're going to go off the track.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

That's too scary.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, we'll work on that.

[Monica Padman]

That's one step too far.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm going to add one thing so I relate to all that. And then the other thing I do like about it and why I don't want to change my workout is so much of your life is so subjective and these are just straight numbers. It's like, okay, I do 15 sets of this weight, and when I can't, I know I've declined. And when I exceed that or it's easy. It's an objective evaluation of myself every single day.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

That's such a huge part of it. All through the pandemic, the only way I could progress was in the gym. Nothing else was moving. But I would be like, I could lift this weight five times today. Last week, I could only lift it four times. So it's really being like, oh, I have made progress in this thing. And it is verifiable and objective. That's a big part of it. It and just the feeling of doing something that you didn't think you were capable of doing. I think a lot of us limit ourselves all the time with like. I could do that. I can't do that. By the way, I love Maru coffee, really good coffee.

[Monica Padman]

We love it. We love it here.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

It's really good.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I used to live right by adhd. No, I bet a little bit. I feel it a little bit.

[Dax Shepard]

We can't get up the clock. I'm sorry I said it.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

But we limit ourselves more than. I think a lot of times the situation limits us or our environment limits us. So I think just being able to go past what you conceive to be your limits in any aspect of your life helps you do that in other aspects of your life.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, I agree. And then it just builds this kind of sustained confidence. Well, we'll get into all the minute.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I also have this thing. This is gonna sound very arrogant when I'm really feeling myself. I like just how I look in the mirror.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I just like it.

[Dax Shepard]

I like that too. To your point. I put all these limits on myself. It was like all through my twenties I was like, well genetically I don't have a six pack. Some guys have em, which is true. There were kids in my school that.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Just were jacked 15 year olds with six packs for sure.

[Dax Shepard]

And because I didn't have that just out of the gates with no effort, I decided I genetically was incapable of that. So that's one cool reward is like, oh, I'm capable of more things. But moving through the world as a dude with muscles, the reaction from other dudes is almost universal. And I love it. I love that men touch my arm and they squeeze me. I just love it.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

This is so funny cause I was telling Emily about this, I was like, guys will comment on my body all the time. And she's like, they're hitting on you. I'm like, they're not hitting on me, they're just commenting on my body. And then we were in New York for a few months. So you're out and about on the streets with more people. And she saw it happen like 35 times where just obviously guys who are not hitting on me commenting on very specific parts of my body.

[Dax Shepard]

It's so primitive.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

At the gym with dudes is the only time men be physically intimate with other men. Talking about a man look at your quads. Like spotting someone when they're squatting. Exactly. It's the only time. Yeah, it's like a standing spoon. It's the only time men feel comfortable being physically intimate.

[Dax Shepard]

Unless they're wrestling or some other sports. All sports in a sense are like homoerotic. We're so starved for any kind of affection.

[Monica Padman]

You are. What would happen if that got cured for all men? That it was like, it's fine, you guys can just touch each other and hug and be affectionate. It so much would be fixed.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

You're totally right. First of all, I've been married almost 20 years. But people are like, did you get more attention from girls when you got buff? I was like, no, more from guys.

[Dax Shepard]

I haven't had any girls.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Zero change in how women react.

[Dax Shepard]

No, it's just for each other.

[Monica Padman]

Have the opposite question. Did Emily feel like, we gotta talk about this? Because Dax did a show with his best friend Aaron and I was on it and someone wrote in and said, my partner, my husband is starting to get really, really, really buff and going to the gym all the time and drinking protein shakes and doing all this. And I'm uncomfortable with it.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Well, one thing I want to ask is, was this woman upset about how Buffy was getting or how much time and energy he was devoting to getting buff?

[Monica Padman]

Both.

[Dax Shepard]

That's what we debated. So it was just a write in. So we couldn't ask any follow up questions.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Right. Because the obsession I get being like, hey, this is too much.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, that was my point. It's like, is he not available for his duties as a father, as a husband? As if that's an issue, then that's obvious. If it's. I don't know this person, I'm afraid that this new version of them isn't gonna love me. I can relate to that and I have a lot of sympathy for that. But there's so many reasons for Emily.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

She did say, she's like, if we went on a first date and you were this buff, I'd think there was something really wrong with you.

[Monica Padman]

Right, right, right.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Just cause she knows me and has known me for over a decade that this happened. She was like, that's not gonna come out. That's like the.

[Dax Shepard]

I really fucking. It's so green, dude.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, we did.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

What are you drinking? Straight chlorop.

[Dax Shepard]

It's 22 ounces a week.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

We're just converting sunlight into food.

[Monica Padman]

It's a young matcha.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I don't like matcha. It feels like falling face first.

[Dax Shepard]

Kumail's getting too much attention.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. People think it's grat I think it.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Tastes like gross grass.

[Monica Padman]

Everyone's talking about Kumail's muscles and not Dax as he's getting upset.

[Dax Shepard]

It was that bad of an interview. It was like, every time it was about you, I just set myself on fire. Oh, my gosh.

[Monica Padman]

No. But this is interesting.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I think Emily understood that it meant, since I was a little kid, I wanted to be a certain way, and I wasn't. And now I get to be the way I wanted to be. And there's a lot to unpack there, but she always trusted me to go on whatever journey I wanted. Now there are times where she's like, I like the way you look right now. And it's generally not the biggest and most cut I've been. It's almost never that. It's like when I'm a little bit softer, she's like, I think, to me, this is the ideal male physique that I want, and that's how I know it's time to dye it. That's my cue to immediately, I'm not trying to impress you, honey. I'm trying to impress other men. I already got you.

[Monica Padman]

I just wonder when you're allowed to. To say to your partner, you know, this is a bigger question. You marry someone or you fall in love with someone, and then they change. People change over time. We all do. And is it okay to say, you know what? I don't like it?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

How would you feel about that if someone didn't like their partner gaining weight?

[Monica Padman]

Exactly. No, I. I'm including all of this now.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

That's very tricky.

[Monica Padman]

Do it. And. And is it allowed? If you're hearing someone say gaining weight, you'd be like, absolutely not. They are not allowed to say that. They have to accept you.

[Dax Shepard]

But what's funny is both attempts to address that would be veiled under the same thing, which would be health.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Sure. Concern trolling.

[Dax Shepard]

Yep.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, is that what it's called? Concern trolling?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

It's called concern trolling. We're like, are you okay? You're looking a little skinny or whatever. Internet is full of it.

[Monica Padman]

Interesting.

[Dax Shepard]

So I've heard people try to act like what I'm doing is somehow not healthy.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Obviously, there's a way to take it where it's not healthy, but you look very healthy. Nothing about you is like, oh, I'm concerned for this person. The one thing that I do think about and struggle with as public figures is when I was a little kid and I would see buff men, it would upset me that I didn't look like that and now am I contributing to men feeling bad about themselves? Little teenage boys feeling bad about themselves? Because the decision I made was very personal. But I do have to acknowledge the fact that as a public figure, I am out there and people do see. You know, you Google me, the first five pictures are all. Is that making someone feel bad about themselves?

[Monica Padman]

That's interesting.

[Dax Shepard]

Can I counter that?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Sure, please.

[Dax Shepard]

You're a brilliant improv artist. You're a hysterical comedian. If someone's watching you do comedy that aspires to do comedy and can't do it as good as you, and they feel like shit, should you stop being really funny? I mean, literally, should you limit your potential in any domain because it might make someone else feel bad?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Too funny?

[Dax Shepard]

Should you write less good if you're a fucking author? No. No. That's crazy. You can't diminish your own self out of fear of what the fallout might be. You might also inspire. That might be 10% of the reaction. And 90% of people might go on a health journey that makes them live 10 years longer.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I've had a lot of people say that. For me, I. I always say, like, just be healthy, of course, and just be the version of you that you can like. Often it doesn't have to do anything with how you look or whatever. I obviously be healthy. That's good. But. But learning to love yourself, I think, is more important than anything. And for me, sadly, I have been on this journey of being like, I like myself, and part of that has had to do with my body transformation. It's a little unavoidable, and I wish it wasn't part of it, but I know it is.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, listen, you're exacting control and outcome on a world that is very hard to exact control and outcome.

[Monica Padman]

So that's very confident.

[Dax Shepard]

It's very satisfying.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I have a real control thing, so I sort of have an obsessive personality. And I'm very lucky in that I know it just doesn't go towards stuff that would ruin my life.

[Dax Shepard]

You're not addicty.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Not addicty, but I feel it when I'm gambling. I feel that tiger. So I have to be very careful gambling. Like, I can't really play sometimes, you know, I don't really play sports, but if I'm, like, in any kind of competitive situation, I start to have that come out, you know, where it gets awkward, like, hey, dude, we're just playing a board game.

[Dax Shepard]

How are you at your video games? Are you yelling at people on the headsets and stuff? No, Are you anonymous when you play? Do you play?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I don't play online anymore.

[Dax Shepard]

You don't? Okay.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I only play with friends. And I play with Emily. Emily. And I play. And with Emily, I've learned to sort of.

[Dax Shepard]

She's like, not be an asshole.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

You cannot talk to me like this.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

We are still married.

[Dax Shepard]

Can you think of something you said to her at one point in the heat of a video game battle, whenever.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I go, you gotta. She's like, you can't sing. You gotta to me anymore. Like, honey, you gotta. We're just playing this game right now, and she's very good, and we can hang, you know, but sometimes we play when we're high.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, sure.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

And she'll be like, where are you? And I'm like, if you hit up on the controller, you gotta know by now. And she's like, gotta stop saying gotta. I'm like, honey, we've been playing this game for three fucking months.

[Dax Shepard]

You're exasperated.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah, I do get that.

[Monica Padman]

Short fuse.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

It's just, you know, it's an intense situation. The stakes are high. I'm trying to save the fucking planet right now.

[Dax Shepard]

That's right.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I need you to know how to look up the map.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. The game isn't called Get Groceries exactly. Yeah, it's Call of Duty.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah, it's Call of Duty, man. We're saving the world from the Nazis right now. I can't teach you how to, like, unfold your map every five minutes.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. So in my dream world of the structure of this, like, I'd love to explore how we feel about it, and then I want to confront how other people feel as its own little piece.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I love that.

[Dax Shepard]

But to continue with it a little bit, because this takes up a lot of my thought, and I love checking in with you.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I love talking to you about this, because very few people want to get into it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah. Sandler one time told me, and I'll never forget it. I had gotten in really good shape for this movie 20 years ago with Kristen Cold when in Rome. I played an underwear model, and I had gotten in good shape. And he came up to me. He's like, buff isn't funny, buddy. Just remember. I was like, God, right? And then we all know Carrot Top as a trope.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I've heard that a lot. I disagree with it.

[Monica Padman]

But what is Carrot Top as a trope?

[Dax Shepard]

He's a for real bodybuilder.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, I didn't know that.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Jacked.

[Dax Shepard]

And people bring him up constantly, like, don't be a Carrot Topper. You just hear Carrot Top a lot.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah, I know you hear Carrot Top a lot from any reason. And I'm saying to the person, not anything about Carrot. Carrot Top. Do you think Carrot Top got less funny when he got buff or did you just never think Carrot Top was funny?

[Dax Shepard]

There you go.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I mean, I think.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

What do you think of that? How's that?

[Dax Shepard]

There's a lot to this scene. Well, I was gonna say his.

[Monica Padman]

His quite slow.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

They could come up a little bit.

[Monica Padman]

They could come up.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I don't need to know that. The carpet matches the drapes.

[Dax Shepard]

The mom's pubis is on full display. But I understand he wanted to show off the arrows.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

But he got carried away.

[Monica Padman]

Now, here's the thing. First of all, very nice body. It's not from me because. Yes, it's too. It's the hugging the corner of the building thing again. But I think it's nice. Now, looking at this for the first time, I can understand what they mean when they say, how can that guy be funny? It's because whoever created this body, not God, like who did this to them, is taking things very seriously. You have to take life very seriously to look like that.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

That's an interesting point. And that's the only good point I've heard about this exact thing. However, John Cena is very, very funny. He likes super jacked. And I think you can take certain parts of yourself seriously and not other parts. I truly don't think I'm less funny because I'm buff. Because I think you have to always have a level of self awareness. Like he has to understand that that's a little bit ridiculous a lot. Yeah. When I put my pictures out, I understood that it was a little bit ridiculous. I understand it's a little bit ridiculous that I am Jack now. So I think you have to have that level of awareness. It's when you take yourself too seriously. I think that is the death of comedy.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

And I think the other thing that is the death of comedy is people wanting to be cool.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Comedians can be cool.

[Dax Shepard]

Cool.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

But someone who wants to be cool and a comedian, I don't have any time for that.

[Dax Shepard]

I will say though, one aspect that is true is generally comedy works best when you are put upon.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Sure. Low status.

[Dax Shepard]

Exactly. So if Carrot Top stand there like that and then his boss is denigrating him and he's a foot and a half shorter and is a mess. You kind of don't give a fuck. You're like, oh, if he wanted, he'd Crush it.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

But you know what? Did you watch Peacemaker? Not to go back to John Cena again. Yes, yes, he is the jackest guy in there. He's like a superhero, but he is put upon the whole time.

[Dax Shepard]

That's true. But it required people with superpowers to out status him in a way. And he's so dumb, his stupidity is his Achilles. So, yes, we could play big dumb idiots like DC Cab. I'd love it.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Would be really fun to play.

[Monica Padman]

I mean, you could, but you'd really have to suspend your disbelief. That's another. I mean, we know you're not a big dumb idiot.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Are you saying John Cena is a big dumb idiot?

[Monica Padman]

I love John Cena. I love John Cena. Great guest. Go check out that episode.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

So cute. Talented.

[Monica Padman]

You played a lot of dumb idiots at the beginning of your career.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah. You're very good at it. I mean, idiocracy. That's such a great performance.

[Monica Padman]

You played a lot of them.

[Dax Shepard]

I specialize in dummies.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, but I bet now it'd be less fun. No, no, I bet it would be harder because you now have shown yourself as your real self that is smart. And you have comedy specials that are smart. People know you, you as smart. It might be hard to be like, he's acting dumb.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I think acting dumb is a difficult thing and a few people who are smart can do it. Adam Sandler is one of them. He's obviously very smart. Did you guys see Jay Kelly?

[Monica Padman]

Not yet, no.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

He's so good in it.

[Dax Shepard]

Really?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah. And not a dumb idiot at all. And if you know him, he's not a dumb idiot at all, but he's good at playing dumb idiots. Have you guys seen this movie called Twinless? It's a small movie, came out this year. This actor, director, writer, wrote it, stars in it and Dylan o'. Brien. Do you guys know who Dylan. Dylan o' Brien is a phenomenal actor. If you look him up, you'd be like, oh, that guy. Like, you know, young guy. He's like 30. Very smart guy. Always plays smart guys. He plays a dumb guy in this and it's an incredible performance. And he's like subtly dumb. He's not comedy dumb. He's just dumb in ways. People that you know. And so I was talking to him about it. I was like, how were you able to do this? Because that is something I think about a lot. I'd love to play a dumb guy. It's a very tricky thing to be able to do. What was your Trick to doing.

[Dax Shepard]

So I think the key is you have to think you're much smarter than everyone you're talking. Talking to.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Interesting.

[Dax Shepard]

You have to be condescending as a dumb guy. Frito's like, are you stupid? He thought everyone was stupid and that he was a genius.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Right. It's the Dunning Kruger effect.

[Monica Padman]

It is, yes. Oh, that's funny. That's a good.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

The less you know, the more you think you know. It's like what they say. To act drunk, you have to try and act sober, which.

[Dax Shepard]

That one eludes me a little bit. I've had to play drunk, and I hate it.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I've played drunk a few times, and I think one of the keys I learned was, what kind of drunk is this? Is it angry drunk? Is it happy drunk? Is it stupid drunk, sloppy? And then you lean into that. So if it's happy, you lean into the happy beyond. Like any kind of reasonable thing. You know who does a really good job? Evan Peters. Is he a mayor of Easttown?

[Monica Padman]

Oh, I love that. Is that the show he was in?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

There's a show where he plays drunk in one scene when he hits on his partner. And it's a really remarkable scene. Cause he goes through every kind of drunk person, which is like the drunk person who's down on themselves. The drunk person who has too much confidence, too sad emotionally.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

In all. In one scene, you see him do all those different kinds of drunk. And it's a really, really great performance. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

[Dax Shepard]

We are supported by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. That's super smart. Not checking the pockets of your jeans before doing laundry. Classic oversight. That mystery clunking in the dryer. Yeah, that was your lip balm's final moments. And somehow there's always one random receipt in there to dissolve into confetti. Yeah. Checking first is smart. So check all state first for a quote that could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary subject to terms, conditions and availability. Allstate North America Insurance Company affiliates, North Brook, Illinois. We are supported by Inuit TurboTax. You know that feeling when you drop your taxes off with somebody and then nothing? You're just sitting there wondering if they've even started, if there's a problem. If you're getting everything you're owed, it's like sending your car to the shop and never getting an update. That's what I appreciate about TurboTax. Full service. They've completely flipped that experience. You get matched with a dedicated tax expert who actually does your taxes for you. For you. And here's the part that changes everything. You get real time updates on your expert's progress right in the app. You can literally see when they're working on your return. No more guessing, no more waiting by the phone. And if you have questions, you get unlimited help from your expert at no extra cost. Even nights and weekends during tax season, they're focused on getting you the best possible outcome and every dollar you deserve. Visit turbotax.com to get matched with a Turbo Tax Full Service Expert today. Today that's TurboTax.com only available with TurboTax full service experts real time updates in iOS mobile app we are supported by Peloton. You know how life gets especially chaotic this time of year?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Work.

[Dax Shepard]

Kids trying to remember what day it is. For me, finding time to move can feel impossible. But that's where Peloton comes in. Peloton has completely reimagined cross training with the new Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus. Powered by Peloton iq, it's Peloton's most elevated equipment yet. Real time guidance, endless ways to move, and it helps you get more done in less time. I like the time crunch aspect of it because sometimes I only got 20 minutes to squeeze something in. This is perfect. With Peloton IQ, you get personalized plans, form correction and weight suggestions that help you train smarter and stay consistent no matter how busy life gets. Let yourself run, lift, sculpt, push and go Explore the new Peloton cross training tread position [e-mail]. I think I just attacked it with fear. Like, oh God, gotta do this thing.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

That's the thing I've learned in my relationship with Emily is that all the stuff that I hide from her, like I'm sad, I'm scared. Often the anxiety of starting a new job right, that was just mine. If I say it out loud, it makes it real. I say it to her and it actually takes its power away. That's the biggest thing I've learned. One I do it as a way of apology. Like, hey, I'm in a weird place. I'm starting this job on Tuesday and I'm a little bit nervous to work.

[Dax Shepard]

Pretty certain they fucked up by casting me. That's what I'm feeling today.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

All I have to do is get to rap before they find out. Every set I go to, I think of Eric Stoltz getting fired from Back to the Future. That dude shot six Weeks. He shot six weeks, and then they fucking fired him. And he's collecting his boss as he's walking out. Everybody else has a job. The grip has a job. You're the only one who doesn't have a job.

[Dax Shepard]

200 people.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

You're the main guy, and you're the only one who doesn't have a job.

[Dax Shepard]

No, that's rough. And good for him, the fact that he can come back and be in Pulp Fiction and be like, so stellar.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, now let's talk about the reaction.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

So what happened was I talked about this in the specials, but do you know Michael Rosenbaum? Do you guys know?

[Dax Shepard]

I know him very, very, very well.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

So I did his podcast and we talked about me.

[Dax Shepard]

That's where it all came from. Is Rosenbaum's.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah, it came from Rosenbaum's podcast. And he felt so bad about it. I was like, dude, honestly, this is a gift. Thank you. I know how to end my special now. You know, I didn't know. So it all started from that.

[Dax Shepard]

He was talking about the heartbreak of Eternals and it sending him to therapy.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

There was a big reaction, backlash. And I understand them saying the privilege of the bad review. Send you to therapy. And I talk about 4, 15 minutes.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

It was a lot. It's also, you know, men feel weird about going to therapy. There's a lot wrapped up in it. I'll give you all the gory details. I put those pictures out December of 2019, while I was shooting Eternals. I was going into Christmas. We were going to shoot till February, but I was like, I don't know. This might be the only time I look like this. I got two weeks off, and pastries in London are really good. So I don't know if I'm ever going to look like this. So I asked the trainer, and I was like, hey, get some baby oil. I'll get a razor. Let's get these pictures going, you know, because I don't know if I'm ever going to look.

[Dax Shepard]

That could be the last time of your entire life.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah. So I wanted these pictures. I. I did it. I put the pictures out. Initially, the response was really, really, really good. But then what happened was in 2020, the pandemic happened in March. My wife and I took it very, very seriously. We didn't leave the house. She's got an immune condition. So I was in a real bad place. Stills Adult onset stills disease. And now she's been diagnosed with another thing, which turns out is probably a combination of those two A lot of things we're finding out not to. This is a whole adhd. We're finding out a lot about autoimmune diseases because of research into hiv, because when you have HIV and your immune system starts fucking up. So now there's a lot of research into this, and there's a lot of therapies for this that are way better. So Emily's on a new medication that has changed our lives. So we're in all the time. And on Christmas, we got this gingerbread house. We made it. It's just a picture of me sitting next to a gingerbread house that my wife took. And we hadn't seen a human being a long time. Now it's January 2021. And I think part of what happened is people were like, well, 2020 sucks. 2020 sucks. 2021 would be better. Now we're in 2021, and there's no vaccine in sight, and we still can't leave the fucking house. So I think particularly January 2021, people were in a real fucking place and spraying it everywhere. I think I was one of the victims of this. I was watching the Crow with Brandon Lee, RIP I'd taken an edible. I was high out of my mind watching this movie that I used to love as a kid, watching it now being. And a friend of mine texted me. He's like, hey, I'm so sorry about what's going on online.

[Dax Shepard]

First of all, public service announcement to all friends.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Never do that.

[Dax Shepard]

No. Okay, so you post this picture.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I posted this picture a few weeks before. So my friend texted me. I was like, what are you talking about? And he was like, oh, you don't know? So I go on Twitter and there are literally 10,000 responses. And it's that picture of me, and I'm just smiling with the thing. I'm high, and you could see the way I'm sitting. I just look like I have a big jawline. And it's just people. People making fun of my appearance. Literally 10,000 comments fucking destroyed me. Because as a kid growing up, I was very insecure about my looks. And I've done all this work to move away from that, and this made me feel like a little kid. I'm watching this movie high out of my mind, and this is happening. And there were two full days of it sort of trending on Twitter, and it was like a big thing that people were just happy dunking on the way I looked physically. Gifts and memes were going around and all this stuff. Again, in the grand scheme of Things. Probably not a huge thing, but I. I was very aware of it. And so I would tell Emily every day, I would check in with her. I was like, I'm not gonna go on Twitter. I'd be like, is it still happening? She's like, yeah, it's still happening. It's still happening. Yeah, it's still happening. And I remember it took, like, two full days of that. Cause I think people were frustrated and needed to take it out. So that started with that one specific picture, and then it went on to pictures of me being buffed.

[Dax Shepard]

It set off a cottage industry.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

It set off a cottage industry calling me grotesque and monstrous. I talk about all this in the special now. So that was the big backlash. January 2021. And I think, like, all these things, it. With what they're going through than what I'm going through. But I really felt very singled out and attacked for that whole type. Again, people have much bigger problems in this, but for me, it was a pretty intense thing.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

So that was, like, the backlash to my transformation. That ended up happening a little bit over a year after the initial pictures came out.

[Dax Shepard]

Interesting. And you were also dealing, I'm sure, with. Had eternals come out yet?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

At least you have that positive thing in your mind, dude. That's basically your safety net. During all this.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Kept me going all through Pandemic where I was like, wait for this thing to come.

[Dax Shepard]

I'll be laughing. We'll talk about this body in three months.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

100%. The entire time I was like, wait till this comes out. And part of that, it's totally my fault. I put too much into this thing that I should not have put anything into. I had a great time making that movie.

[Dax Shepard]

Meaning you put too many expectations.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Too many expectations. It's going to change my career, man.

[Dax Shepard]

We've had so many of the same moments. It's really weird. Wild. It's really wild thinking, like, you're from Pakistan, saw a guy get stabbed to death in the street when you were a kid. And I'm shot. Shot. Sorry. Seemingly there'd be no parallels. But I similarly had directed Chips. It tested through the roof. They commissioned a sequel before it came out to write it.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Dude. And it was you and Pena. He's so good.

[Dax Shepard]

And I got hired immediately by Warner Brothers to take over Scooby Doo. I'm getting asked to come fix some scrap and maybe direct another thing. And I go, ah, the next 10 years of my life, I'm gonna be writing and directing. I'm positive of that for Like a year and a half to the degree that's in my DNA, that my identity is. I'm a writer, director, and I'm gonna do this for the next decade. And even greedily, I'm like, yeah, now get this on this and this on this. I've modeled out how much money I'm gonna make in the next 10 years.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

That's exactly how I was.

[Dax Shepard]

And so in one Friday, I find out the ten year game plan is gone.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Did that movie not do well?

[Dax Shepard]

No. Like, well, certainly the sequel's not getting made. All these other things and meanings, they just shrivel up.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

What we both did was build up this thing because we want safety. It is truly a devastating experience.

[Dax Shepard]

It's my fault. I'm taking full responsibility. No one should feel bad for me. But I did plan out my entire life based on something. And that really changed on a Friday afternoon, which I think a lot of people suffer setbacks, but they're pretty dramatic.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

In our business that is pretty dramatic because people's lives change overnight.

[Dax Shepard]

You had signed on to do six Marvel movies.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I sounded do six Marvel movies. A video game and a theme park, right?

[Monica Padman]

Oh, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So of course you thought the next decade of your life.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

The next decade of my life, I'm going to be doing those movies and then between, you know, one for you, one for me, I'll do like little indies.

[Dax Shepard]

So people think when they hear that, they understandably think like, oh, boohoo, you won't have that thing. But they're missing the pain and hurt is my safety just vanished. It's not about being famous or whatever. It's just like I knew what I was going to do for 10 years, as if I were a physician that knew I could do my job for the next 10 years. And I found and I can't.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Especially for us, it's tricky one. We're getting to live our dreams and suddenly our dreams are getting bigger. And I'm going to get to do this. It's self serving, but it really is. You're like, the purpose of my life is to make stuff and now I'm going to get to do it. How exciting. And it happens with comedy guys, I think specifically where, you know, you hit and then you get a window, right? And sometimes that window closes and when that window closes, you don't know if it's opening up again. It happens to actors too. I mean, look at Brendan Fraser. So many years he did and then he won a fucking Oscar. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's rare.

[Dax Shepard]

But that's why we love it so much, because it is so brutal. And you generally get shown the door never reopens.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Exactly, exactly. It is brutal. I mean, we've picked a very difficult business to be in. And a very vulnerable. You're naked. You know, if you write something, you direct something, you put it out there, you're like, here, this is the inside of my body. What will you do with it? And people are like, we don't like it. We will stab your spleen.

[Monica Padman]

Well, it's also. People forget that actors are very, very fragile. It's actually what makes an actor good.

[Dax Shepard]

Prerequisite.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

We're very sensitive.

[Monica Padman]

So sensitive. And it's a part of what makes acting doable. But then you become famous and people don't give a.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

No, they don't. And they think it's okay to tear you down and whatever. I understand.

[Dax Shepard]

I think we're coming from the same place. I don't want one person to feel bad for me.

[Monica Padman]

No, you cannot feel bad for someone. But you also don't have to be a part of hurting them.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

But that's become part of it now is this dunk session that goes on where people get very excited again, boohoo. Actors. But it is interesting. You're exactly right. Most actors are very sensitive. It took me years to understand that. And it wasn't until a few years ago that I was like, I was a sensitive 14 year old and now I'm a sensitive 40. Whatever year.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. The only question mark I had when I heard the story is Emily was a practicing therapist for nine years or something.

[Monica Padman]

No, no.

[Dax Shepard]

Six years.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah, I would say for six years.

[Dax Shepard]

She in Chicago. She did New York. That's it. Okay.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

North Carolina, then Chicago, then New York.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, great. But you were married to a therapist.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah, in the beginning.

[Dax Shepard]

So the notion that it took you.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

So long, it was after Eternals came.

[Dax Shepard]

Out and you're like, I'm never going to work again.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

It wasn't even really that. It wasn't external circumstance. I understood. It's my reaction to the external circumstances that's fucking me up. And I'm hurting myself by thinking the same thing over and over and over and over. I remember being on this flight. This might be too much information. Information. But we're on a flight because we're doing like a world press tour for Eternals. Being on this flight in first class, laying in the bed.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I've got Wi Fi. And I'm just laying there refreshing rotten tomatoes. And I remember in that moment Being like, this is not good for me.

[Monica Padman]

Not healthy.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

This is horrible.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

By all accounts, you know, I'm in this awesome bed. I just ate a full three course meal on a airplane flying to London.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

You've made yourself miserable.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

This is the most miserable I've ever. Yeah, you.

[Dax Shepard]

You took this chance to feel great and you made yourself miserable. What's great is even though you're not an addict, you've experienced what it's like when you're driving to the dealer's house and you're about to relapse, which is like, this is a bad idea.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I know exactly the feeling you're talking about before you've made the mistake where you know you're about, but you're in.

[Dax Shepard]

Route to do it. Wow.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

What is that like? Can I ask you, what is that like? Cause I think I know that feeling.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. The frontal lobe is going, don't do this. It's going to end in four days. The rapid wreckage. And then there's this body surge of endorphins, I guess, emanating from your reptilian brain that's just like, it's giving you a little hit of what's gonna come. And it's like this battle between this very visceral feeling and then this intellectual debate. And for me, just that surge of endorphins wins. You go, I'm gonna be really disappointed in myself. But I also, in 15 minutes, I'm not gonna give a fuck about that.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Disappointment for a very short period of time.

[Dax Shepard]

Exactly. No.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

At all.

[Dax Shepard]

You know? Yeah, it never works.

[Monica Padman]

That's where the shame comes in after. Because you, yeah, you're like, I knew this was gonna happen and I still did it. And I can't stop.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

That is so powerlessness. When you're driving to the dealers and you're like, I know I shouldn't do this, but you're going, were you ever able to turn around?

[Dax Shepard]

I have accomplished that maybe three or four times. It's been more that I'm at the bar, I decide, I'm already there, I'm with friends. You're at the bar, I'm at the bar. And I decide, you know what? There's no way I'm going to go through every Christmas without getting buzzed again. I make these really over the top declarations, like, am I really going to live the rest of my life without getting buzzed at a bar at Christmas with the Christmas lights on? You know, it's like, this is some essential rite of mine that's been taken. And then I'VE started to build the case and I have been able to leave there. But if I've gotten in my car and I'm en route to the dealer, I'm going to get.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

You're going there?

[Monica Padman]

It's already decided.

[Dax Shepard]

It's getting in the car.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Oh my God. That is really interesting.

[Dax Shepard]

So like when you open up the phone, it's already. You're already in the car, on the way.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

But it's weird because it's a negative feeling. But it does feel like a certain kind of self harm that I had gotten addicted to. There was an addiction to feeling that hurt, that anger at myself and everyone around me. It is like a very living feeling, you know, it's a very alive feeling because.

[Dax Shepard]

And now this is another fun thing that comes from aa, which is self aggrandizement and self pity are the exact same sides of.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Could not agree more.

[Dax Shepard]

What feels like oh poor me is really indulgent and self aggrandizing. It's like a. You're too important in the planet. No one gives a fuck about your movie. No one knows you've elevated all this stuff that was helpful for me to connect like. Well, I would never be self aggrandizing. I'm too ashamed to do that. I'll hide that even if I think think that. But for some reason I'll explore self pity and victimhood. And once I connected, like those are the same fucking thing, bro. I was able to largely curb the.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Self pity cycle after all that stuff and going through therapy and I talk about this in the special. For me, the biggest project of the last few years has been trying to divorce my experience of making something from the result from the reaction to it. Right?

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Ideally I walk off set and never think about it again. Now it's fucking impossible because a year and a half from now you got to be doing interviews, talking about this thing, you know, my stand up special is not that. Because I really feel, feel like I've made that. I fully control it. I live and die by it with this I'm living, dying by other people's mistakes as well.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

And so I've been doing work to cut off from that but. And now this is going to sound like me showing off. A couple of years ago I got nominated for an Emmy and the amount of happy that it made me. I just happened to be with my parents. I had not expected it at all. I woke up in the morning at 11 in New Jersey at my parents house in my pajamas, about to eat a delicious breakfast And I have a hundred text messages on my phone, and I'm like, guys, I just got nominated different. I mean, the amount that it made me happy, I was like, oh, I'm still stuck in there. This is still a trap. I mean, all day I was just replaying. This is so embarrassing. The moment when I saw. I'm replaying, like, scrolling. I'm replaying saying it to my parents, and I understood. I'm still stuck in that same thing.

[Dax Shepard]

That is probably the hardest part of being healthy about this experience, in my opinion, is turning down the press praise. You can't take the praise and turn down the negativity. You either have to turn the whole.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Thing off, and turning it off is impossible. I think you have to turn the volume down the best you can.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't think Jonah would mind me saying this, but I was texting Jonah about us, about to have Phil Stutz on his therapist, and we were going to have him on because I saw the doc and I was so moved by the doc.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah, I saw the doc and I.

[Dax Shepard]

Sent him this text going like, dude, that moment where you have the image of yourself, your shadow, this little kid. And Stutz is like, he wants you to bring him along on this fun ride. And I was like, oh, my God.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So I was texting with him and I was detecting this reservation from his side about this praise I was giving. And then he just said it, and I thought it was so fucking cool. He's like, dude, I love this. Weirdly, this is as bad for me as you saying, very good self awareness. Yes. And I'm like, dude, I swear, strive to turn down praise when I don't see it in the immediate future.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

It's so true. He's exactly right. It's the same thing. But you know what's hard in our business? Praise or bad reviews. It's not just how we deal with it. It does affect our careers. It really does have a practical impact. I make a movie, it makes money. Suddenly I get to do more movies. I make a movie, gets bad reviews, doesn't make any money. Window starts closing, you know, so that's the hard thing for me to reconcile that it's not just my reaction to it. My life is practically affected by the reaction.

[Dax Shepard]

Absolutely.

[Monica Padman]

You're forgetting that you're capable of making your own stuff. You're actually in a rare group that's capable of making their own stuff that can do shows. You can get back to you in control, and you should do that maybe more, 100%.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I was talking to Mike Birbigli, and I was like, you know, you and I kind of. Kind of went in a way in completely opposite paths. He had his first movie that was a big success, and he was like, I'm just gonna keep doing this. And I went and started doing other people's stuff.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, right. But I will say, too, I think the division in my head has to be, yes, one is a practical outcome of what will be my income and what will be my opportunity. And that's true. That needs to be observed. But the stuff that's hurting me and making me ruminate is, am I lovable if I'm a failure? Am I lovable if I'm not spectacular? Am I lovable if I'm not funny? Am I lovable if I'm in bad shape? Am I lovable? Am I worthy of your attention and being seen by you if I'm not spectacular? I was just talking to my mom this morning about this, and, like, that's my hurdle. I don't think I'm worth observing unless I'm spectacular.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I think that's so true. I think the biggest thing we have to learn is that you inherently are worthy of love.

[Dax Shepard]

It's so hard.

[Monica Padman]

It's everyone's hurdle. It is not just you or you or actors. Everyone is doing everything they can to.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Get the most love, that you are worthy of love.

[Monica Padman]

You need to be spectacular.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Sentence, man.

[Monica Padman]

I know.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

You are worthy of love, period. I'm only now learning that I need to lean into the fear. You know? Like, I've all my life been running away from pain and running away from fear and working out taught me I got to chase the pain. And now I'm realizing I got to chase the fear. The things that scare me are the things I need to to do.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, now I want to theorize because I had some takeaways. Again, I can't put too fine of a point on the fact that I really loved your special.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Oh, thanks, buddy.

[Dax Shepard]

It's called Night thoughts, and, boy, did you describe three of my seven nights.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

A week of sleep.

[Dax Shepard]

Monica's heard it ad nauseam. I think I have no anxiety. I don't have waking anxiety in general. I go to bed 3am time to fucking think about something I don't care about once I'm awake.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

Can I give one joke of yours away? Because I think Monica will love it. He wakes up and he writes down his stupid night thoughts. And one of them is, why do white people get all colors of eyes and hair? And everybody else Only gets black eyes and black hair.

[Monica Padman]

That's a very fair thought.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Black people, Asian people, Hispanic people. We just get black eyes and black hair.

[Monica Padman]

I know.

[Dax Shepard]

It is crazy when you point it out. It's crazy. What is going on?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I hate it.

[Dax Shepard]

It's not just adding to the unfairness.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

It's insane.

[Monica Padman]

Now I'm going to be thinking, sorry.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

That joke has gotten a weird reaction a couple of times.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, has?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah. Like the Comedy Store. Somebody got angry at me and they got kicked out. Oh, dude, everybody needs to relax.

[Monica Padman]

Did a white person get mad or.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah, sure, of course.

[Monica Padman]

Sure, of course.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Sure. It was a white person.

[Dax Shepard]

What does Joy say? The caucasity.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah, like the audacity of Caucasian.

[Dax Shepard]

Wow. What was his objection?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

He was saying, that's racist. I was actually. He was. He was very drunk.

[Dax Shepard]

He was playing in that scene. He was like, yeah, this is the racist version.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I'm drunk. This is the night.

[Dax Shepard]

That's right. This is the night when I'm drunk.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I got racist late in the night.

[Dax Shepard]

And he probably regretted it.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I don't know if he regretted it later. The security guy who kicked him out was like. He was trying to connect to me, but, like, that guy's fucking racist, right?

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I was like, no, get the fuck out. The security guy was white.

[Monica Padman]

Wow.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

So glad you watched it, dude. Oh, I loved it.

[Dax Shepard]

I loved it. When you get into the reaction, you kind of synthesize the reaction into five really common threads that people were barking at you online about. And I've given this a ton of thought because I have a different version of it unrelated to muscles, which is I've been with Kristen for 20 years, and there have been hundreds of articles about, why is she with this guy?

[Monica Padman]

What?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Really?

[Dax Shepard]

List of top 10 hot girls with ugly guys.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

That's so disgusting.

[Dax Shepard]

I've been dealing with that less now since the podcast, but for the first 12, 13 years we were together, there were hundreds of these lists of ugly guys with hot girls. And I'm always on it. The worst. And my reaction was like, am so hurt and insecure when you say that. Then I'm defensive and arrogant. I'm like, go meet my other girlfriends. They've all been hot. You. Right. I have this defensiveness.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah, sure.

[Dax Shepard]

And then when I calm down, I really get into it. I'm like, you know what's so interesting? I think I know what's going on. And it's just beat into us in elementary school and in school, which is like, there's strata. You're born into them. Someone shan't migrate north or south. It's disruptive to this whole system that we have been formatted in. And so I thought, because again, primarily girls aren't saying chris with this ugly guy. Guys are saying chris with this ugly guy.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

They're threatened.

[Dax Shepard]

And I think shouldn't that be encouraging? Even if that's your conclusion? Like this 4 got this 10. Isn't that life affirming and positive? Like doesn't that say you could achieve anything? I thought it would be comforting to dudes like me that are normal.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I think it's the opposite. And I think that was some of the reaction to me getting buffed.

[Dax Shepard]

Thank you. Cuz I mapped on that. I get the muscles thing less than you do. I certainly see in the comments dudes going so roided out, always. If I'm with Kristen in a photo, then the guys come out hard. This roided out. For the record, I'm not on steroids. Unless you count testosterone as a steroid, which I guess maybe technically it is. I am on testosterone.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Technically.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. But I'm not on the other great ones. I'd love to be on. If I was going to die in a month, I would be on all of them. I didn't get it at the same way you did. And I think it's a little bit because I'm 6:2 and then maybe white like you guys were talking about.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I do think that's part of it for me is obviously in Bollywood guys are super jacked and it's fine. But here it's like you're a nerd.

[Dax Shepard]

Or you're like, yeah, yeah. What was that fucking incredible movie that took over Netflix? I loved Triple R. Those guys are fucking beefcakes.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

When I went to my trainer, I was like, I want to look like.

[Dax Shepard]

This guy from Triple R. No, this.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Was a guy who's a big star still. His name is Hrithik Roshan. He's super Jack. He's a great actor. Actor. He's got an extra thumb. That's like a thing a lot of Indian people have. No.

[Monica Padman]

Really?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah. I don't mean like 40, but it's dactylia. Is that what it's called?

[Dax Shepard]

I think so.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

The little like extra useless thumb, three thumbs up. Yeah. When he likes the movie, he can really communicate it.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so really quick now we must acknowledge that we're guilty of the thing that hurts us, which is you. And I know this guy's a huge star. He's jacked.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

He's got an Extra thumb. I don't mind saying that this guy's an idol.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

He's gorgeous too.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. But that guy, should he ever come across this podcast, which he won't, he'll be hurt that we're talking about his third thumb. Or is it something he's super proud of?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I don't know.

[Dax Shepard]

Because he could give a shocker. He could get whatever a new Shaka is.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Oh my God.

[Dax Shepard]

Two in the P4 in this.

[Monica Padman]

He met. No, I know, I know. Knew this was. He didn't mean the shocker.

[Dax Shepard]

I did, I did. I just mispronounced it. Yeah, yeah, the shocker.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

What is it?

[Monica Padman]

What's the other?

[Dax Shepard]

The shocker.

[Monica Padman]

That's what I thought you were on.

[Dax Shepard]

No, I mean, yeah. Two in the pink one and the stink. And then four thumbs on the.

[Monica Padman]

Probably wouldn't like this. Yeah, my guess is he wouldn't like this. Or maybe he would.

[Dax Shepard]

So anyways, often when I'm feeling really sad and self pitying and hurt, I have to recognize I too do it.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Do what?

[Dax Shepard]

I talk about people in a way that I don't think would hurt their feelings. Cuz they're so high status. I don't think they would care.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I know we're wrong. Genuinely have been trying to be better about it. Like if someone makes fun of, you know, oh, look at how much work this person got. I'm like, first of all, it's their fucking decision. And what upsets me about what you said about you and Kristen together is these parasocial things where people think they know someone's relationship or how someone actually feels about someone. I think it's so unhealthy. You don't know me. You don't know my life. People will be like, couple goals or whatever. I'm like, you don't know what our life is. You don't know what my relationship with my wife is. You have no fucking idea. So people sort of build us up sometimes to be like, oh, this is.

[Dax Shepard]

You know, you're a dreamy couple. I totally get couples goals.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

People will say like if they have a breakup, I'll stop believing in love. I'm like, don't fucking do that. I am not anything. We are truly nothing to you. This should not be any kind of standard or anything. I mean, what they don't see is how much work we're doing behind the scenes. Oh yeah, you know, I. I'm absolutely in love with Enemy.

[Dax Shepard]

My.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

With Emily, my favorite.

[Dax Shepard]

You don't even know her names. Said Enemies with my love Enemy My friend of me.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

What they don't know is it's not always easy. It's very fulfilling and satisfying, but we got to keep working on it.

[Monica Padman]

Two people coming together in any capacity. How is that happening?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I got friends who are in throuples now. I'm like, what are you doing? Do you guys know people?

[Dax Shepard]

We watch couples therapy, and every time I watch it and there's a throuple or something, I'm like, guys, it's just too hard for two people.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

3. You're making it exponentially more.

[Dax Shepard]

It is exponential. Yeah. It's like going from one kid to.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Two because it's each pairing and then all three of you together. We only got one way. This is like one way, two way, three ways, four ways.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, add also, Kristen and I share an identity. If we are out at a dinner party, we're literally this one identity that plays off each other and has stories. It's like, what is this shared identity of this trouble when they come to your dinner party?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah. How could you not know? Like, if you're in a throuple, be like, you know what? I think this person loves that person a bit more than they love me. And that that's gotta be true, right? I mean, how is it possible that everyone loves everyone equally?

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I believe that's possible because I have two kids.

[Monica Padman]

That's different.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

It is different. You made them.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, you made them.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Now if you're in a trouble with your kid, I'm gonna move on.

[Dax Shepard]

No, let's talk about trouble with my children.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I didn't mean you.

[Dax Shepard]

I meant, like, when my children are.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Gonna feel very left.

[Monica Padman]

Dash even that. You said the other day something like, I took my best girl to a concert, one of the kids. And I said, you can't say that. And he said, I have two best girls. And I said, nope, no one wants to hear that. So, yes, I do think I do.

[Dax Shepard]

Have two best girls.

[Monica Padman]

The ruffles, the love changes. It's like, we're close right now. Now we're close right now. But then the pain on the other person who's on the outside in that moment and trying to fight their way. That's too much.

[Dax Shepard]

I can speak to a three way. I've been in some three ways in my. You.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

That feels easier to navigate than a relationship. And how were those?

[Dax Shepard]

Well, what I can own up to.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Could not wait to bring it up. Could not.

[Dax Shepard]

What I can own up to. And that is inevitably, I felt like I wish it was just me and this person.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Oh, really? Even in that you got a best girl.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, they're best girls everywhere.

[Dax Shepard]

It's like, it's great. It's fun. It's exciting initially. And then just like, oh, I like how that person kisses more.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Could you take a break?

[Dax Shepard]

I have two options in front of me. I enjoy kissing this one more.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Also, they all have their own feelings about that as well.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah, sure.

[Monica Padman]

So they're like, I like this person.

[Dax Shepard]

Both the girls are probably like, I hope this dude leaves.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, right. There's so much going on. It just seems very complex.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

It's all complex. Being a person is so complicated.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Being a person is hard.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

You know, when in true detective and first season, when Matthew McConaughey, he says consciousness was a mistake. I genuinely, truly believe that. I think it was a big fucking mistake.

[Dax Shepard]

A bug.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

It is a bug. I really think you think anybody intended all of this. This was not the end game. This is a big mistake.

[Dax Shepard]

The similarities is, they just wouldn't end in this thing. Cuz also, Monica's heard me say, I hate an encore. It drives me. Cam drives me.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Oh, my God, I love that. Who did you go see with your best girl? Sabrina Carpenter.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Did you go?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah, I went.

[Dax Shepard]

What day? I went on I think the first day on a Sunday.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

We went Monday.

[Dax Shepard]

You went Monday? Yeah. Did you get arrested for being too hot? Me neither.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

What an incredible show.

[Monica Padman]

She's so cool.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

She's so great because she's really funny and she, like, understands all that. Like, so many take themselves too seriously and she. She doesn't. Well, we saw. This is kind of a sad story, I guess, but we saw Prince at the Forum. He did, like a whole month, and tickets were 20 bucks no matter what parking was. 40 bucks. He did eight. Encore.

[Dax Shepard]

Wow. Eight.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

And we were like, I gotta get home. You left and then he died.

[Monica Padman]

Ah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Good. Good for you. That's abusive.

[Monica Padman]

Do you think maybe, like, you killed.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Him by leaving early?

[Monica Padman]

Cosmically? Kind of, yeah.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

He was like, I gotta try more Fentanyl or whatever it was. Let's not say that he did this fucking thing. Speaking of confidence in performing, he did not sing for the first 45 minutes. He strutted around on stage as the band played. He'd go up to the mic, start to sing, and then walk away. I am not exaggerating. 45 minutes and he started singing, and then in like an hour, and he started playing Purple Rain. And he was like, nah, y' all not really ready. And he stopped playing Purple Rain. He sang a bunch of Other songs.

[Dax Shepard]

It's like, you going to set next week with no preparation?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

He was trying something.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

He was the camera zombie. I'm like, you're not ready?

[Dax Shepard]

No. Well, Camille, I really loved it. I hope everyone checks it out. The material is great. You perform it well. But what is so satisfying for me is a hard compliment to take. You're such a genuinely beautiful person. It's, like, very on display. No, Kamel.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Oh, you're so.

[Dax Shepard]

The whole time I'm watching, I just have the warmest, just loving feelings towards you. You're such a sweet.

[Monica Padman]

I know. That's why I'm like, who could be mean to you?

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Oh, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

That was the last thing I wanted to say on that.

[Monica Padman]

Some of these people aren't even real. You have to remember that.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I know. It's troll farms in Russia. Who decided, let's pick.

[Monica Padman]

No one who knows you or has been around you could ever.

[Dax Shepard]

But you know what's funny is we both have this thing. We want muscles. We want this and that. And I'm blown away with it. And I'm horny for the muscles as I'm watching it. But it is the essence that's just. Just Kamau that I'm so attracted to.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

And it's so, so sweet.

[Dax Shepard]

Beautiful and thoughtful and smart and conscious.

[Monica Padman]

With or without muscles.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. The quintessential ingredient is still you.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Oh, thank you. Thank you. That's very sweet. That's, like, the nicest. Sincerely, though, yeah, I'm very proud of it because I didn't do stand up for so long, and when I started up again, I was like, all right, I'm gonna give myself a year and a half to write an hour, perform it, record it, and then I'm going to take a break and see when I come back to it, you know, So I really feel like at this point in my life, at this age, this is the thing I want to say that's completely my own. And I feel like I did it to the best of my ability in this moment. Who knows what happens next, But I'm proud of this.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. Kumail, I love you. It's been too long since you were here. I hope you'll come back. Night Thoughts, December 19th on Hulu. It's fantastic.

[Monica Padman]

Thanks for coming.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Oh, thanks, buddy. Love you guys. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

[Dax Shepard]

I sure hope there weren't any mistakes in that episode, but we'll find out when my mom, Mrs. Monica, comes in and tells us what was wrong.

[Monica Padman]

Kumail.

[Dax Shepard]

Kumail. Nanjiani.

[Monica Padman]

We just like him so much.

[Dax Shepard]

We do. He's a sweet.

[Monica Padman]

So nice. He's so. He's a good boy.

[Dax Shepard]

He is. Who is reminding me, reminding me of him recently?

[Monica Padman]

Me.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, this is interesting. I guess it borders on racist, but he has a similar sweet core that I think Karen Sony has. And I don't know, somehow it's related, but it's a very specific sweetness.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Karen is very sweet.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. I don't think it's racist because you don't think I. I have it.

[Dax Shepard]

No.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

No other great qualities.

[Monica Padman]

No, I don't even. I mean, I think it's a great quality. I love seeing it, but I don't like, wish I had it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I mean, there's so much gendered.

[Dax Shepard]

There's a lot of overlap between Karen, obviously, and Kamal in that they're both growing up, one in Pakistan, one in India, but both little guys that are really quite afraid of their environment.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

K. And hiding, you know, his sexuality and being terrified. And then Kamal scene. Get shot, you know. Yeah. And then leaving there. I don't know. I don't know. There's some. There's some connective tissue.

[Monica Padman]

Absolutely. Speaking of that. Speaking of connective tissue trauma.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, Tuama, I don't mean to correct you, but.

[Monica Padman]

No. I can't believe I said that so wrong. When I was home in Georgia.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I had a great time and it was very. It was. But it was funny because I sometimes I wonder because I've been here a while. Been here in la.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

That like, I've made some stuff up in my head.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, sure. Yes. You know, I relate.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. And I'm like. Am I being like hyperbolic about some of this stuff or the way I remember it or.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Was there racism or like, maybe not actually. I don't know. You know, I start like questioning it.

[Dax Shepard]

Questioning it.

[Monica Padman]

And I think it's good to question it. Like, we have these ideas that are built and like, maybe that's wrong. And of course it's always going to be a little wrong because your memories shift and stuff and morph over time. There's revisionist history. Great podcast.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Incredible.

[Monica Padman]

But I was kind of. This is so bad to say, I was kind of relieved. There was a couple moments where I was sort of afraid, affirmed that those things weren't imagined. Were not imagined. Yes. And I was talking to someone specifically who I. I'm very close to, who was talking about. I have to be careful here. Who's talking about their father in law and I grew up with this person. This person knows me very well.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And she. My friend was telling me just like, how. How bad how. How racist it's gotten, huh? In that house with this person, Father in law. And I was like. And I said, I said, that's so weird because, like, he knows me, right? And she's like, yeah, well, you're an exception because you're rich and famous. And I was like, oh, my God. And then. And then there's another person in that person's life who's also Indian. I said, well, what about this person? And she was like, he's kind of an exception to. Just because he's been around, but there's still some weirdness. And I was like, wow. And the. When she said it, it was a light bulb for me because I was like, yes. That me being an exception is like, what's driven my entire life.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure, sure, sure.

[Monica Padman]

I think it's part of what has driven me to be. To work so hard. It's like across the board, it's just like I have to be an exception. Yes, yes, across the board. And I think that's then just bled into all areas of my life, work and anything, relationships.

[Dax Shepard]

I think that's an incredibly sound theory. But I would also suggest. Suggests it's like it's some percentage of the pie because your parents are gangsters, your genetics are awesome, you were gonna be a go getter wherever you grew up as well. And then, you know, I think if I were you, I would certainly feel this way because you can't afford to make room for the nuance. But I'd imagine you think, like, racist is one thing, right? It's just like this hatred of all people or whatever. But when we're watching that wonderful documentary and those bozo white nationalists are sitting with this Indian woman, like, well, not you. And I think there's mass confusion within their own mind. I think they have, like, they have a cartoonish archetype in their mind that they hate.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, right.

[Dax Shepard]

Whatever the characteristics they've assigned to this group that they hate. And then yet, weirdly, I think they're open to when they meet someone of that group that's not displaying these arc, you know, these stereotypical archetype things that you think they hate, then they go like, oh, well, I don't hate this one. So I think, like, it is. Even racism is as complicated and nuanced and probably individual as every other opinion. Like, full of contradictions.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I think that's right. I just think that's the problem. Like if they. The hope would be that if they met or knew someone of that race.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

That that would then shatter the racism, the whole.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Monica Padman]

The paradigm.

[Dax Shepard]

But I think they go, oh, this is an exception.

[Monica Padman]

This is an exception.

[Dax Shepard]

And then. But they're open to meeting three more exceptions that day.

[Monica Padman]

I know, but who cares overall, you know? I know what you mean.

[Dax Shepard]

I mean, like, it's a spectrum, probably. And Hitler's on one side, which is like, Jews are genetically inferior. They all suck no matter what. I'm witnessing them do spectacular. Right. Like, you can't. They can't. You can't penetrate his level on that. And then I'm. I just think it's a crazy spectrum. And of course, how is anyone, the other group to know where this person's at? Like, how irrational are they in this opinion?

[Monica Padman]

Well, it, it is definitely a huge spectrum and people make exceptions all the time. But I guess when I'm. What has happened to me over my life is I used to be very, you know, I needed to be that exception for survival. But I, like, really, I didn't care. I didn't care about the other Indian people. As long as I got through, I was fine.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And I. And now I don't feel that I. I'm like, fuck that. Like, you take all of us or you can't just. I'm not an exception.

[Dax Shepard]

Right, right, right.

[Monica Padman]

I'm like everybody else, a la carte. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. So it's, it's changed, I think, for me, over as I have grown. It's interesting.

[Dax Shepard]

There's so many, like, little minute layers to all of it. You know, it's like I may learn that his rallies on the personality tests are the highest disagree. Disagreeability of all the ethnicities. Right. Like, this is a confirmed thing we've had experts on talking about. About. And then I might meet an Israeli that doesn't seem that disagreeable. And I. And then I have to make room for like. All right, sure. In general, they over index in this. But again, there's so much variety within this thing. I also have to go like. Yeah. I can't just assume they're all disagreeable because.

[Monica Padman]

Right. Because there's. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Because it's like I'm doing it, I'm sure, in ways that aren't like overtly racist or hostile or with any sense of superiority. Just like what I think I know about different groups.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And then you have to constantly be making room for the individual.

[Monica Padman]

Well, racism is not about making. I mean, They're, I guess, making generalizations as a part of it, but it's the making generalizations that lead to a feeling of superiority or a feeling of hatred. So if you don't have those other pieces, it's, you know, less of. It's not as much of an issue unless you're making all these assumptions about people that. That aren't true. But for the most part, that's the. That's the issue. Right. It's like, oh, they're all like this. And so that's gross or bad or.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I can give a personal example on my own. There are. I grew up around a couple different cultures. Some of these cultures, definitely there was an increased machismo and what I thought was total disrespect for females.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

And I went, that's wrong. Not, I'm better. So even within, like, superiority. It's such a broad word. It's like, I definitely felt like what I was doing was right and what they were doing was wrong, per my morals and ethics.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

But I, at no point was like, I'm better than. Or I'm superior, or if this person hadn't grown up in my household, they wouldn't be the same. It's just like, oh, I know this group of people. They're. They're pretty fucking hyper masculine and aggressive, and I'm not for that.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And, yeah, it's really complicated. But I love what you were exploring at the beginning, because my brother and I had, like, a really, really profound. Well, first of all, we had this beautiful trip together right before Christmas. We went to New York together. And I have had the great luxury of going to New York a ton of times and getting to live in different areas of the city when I'm working. And there's a whole part of New York I love that I don't think the tourist really knows. And I very much wanted my brother to see that side of it.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Because he even said, like, why do you love New York so much? For him, it was. It's Times Square in Central Park. And I'm like, well, yeah, that's. That's a great.

[Monica Padman]

Those are great, but probably not worth.

[Dax Shepard]

Going to multiple times.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

So we went and we were on this lawn. We walked everywhere. We walked like 17 miles a day. And I think we were walking across the Brooklyn Bridge and we were chatting and. And I said, my brother's a great, great believer, as am I, in that. Like, he's a vision board person person, and he imagines what he wants and he puts out into the. The world. This, These positive outcomes he wants. And it's very effective for him.

[Monica Padman]

Manifesting. I love it.

[Dax Shepard]

And he manifests it, right?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And he thinks positive thoughts and he knows positivity begets positivity. And we're talking about confirmation bias. Like, yeah, if you think everything's upward trending, you see the proof of the upward trending and you ignore the downward trend. And then you don't get bogged down in that.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And I said to him, I said, you know what feels really, really unfair for me as I write this memoir is any one of us have had every experience in childhood. I can really. I have the data or the plot points to create any story I wanted.

[Monica Padman]

Sure, sure.

[Dax Shepard]

Because all I got to do is string together the 15 times this thing happened. And I decide that was my childhood. And I said to Dave, I said, you know, I really been. I want to get this out of my system. The memoir. And the goal is, when the memoir is done, I'm going to start looking back on my history a lot differently than I have been, which is, I have to acknowledge. Yeah, these things happen to you and I. But if we really added it up, that's probably was.03% of our experience on life. They're so hyper memorable.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

Because they were so dramatic and stuff. But in reality, we're looking at 99% of the time we had a damn good sitch. And I said, and I want to start constructing a different story about my back. I said, I think the same thing. Thing is true about looking forward. I think we. I need to apply it. Looking backwards now that I said it out loud, I like, feel a commitment to, like, that's good. I mean, really, you. You could, you could, you know, you could look at the 12 situations where someone discarded you, and you could look at the 12 that they showed compassion to you because you were other. I bet you also received a lot of. I would hope some teachers that recognize this girl's other and well, and I want to make her feel inclusive, you know, like, I bet there was acts of generosity that pro. You know, those don't hurt in. In. In. In sticking your memory. But I bet they were there for whatever reason.

[Monica Padman]

I am very aware of the cheerleaders and angels in my story. Those are the main characters for sure. I, I am. I have no questions about that. They're every. Like, it's startling. I feel like so lucky in that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, me too.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, it's, it's. I mean, no one gets to have a life like this. Without it, you just don't. You have to have a lot of people who believe in you. You have to have a lot of power and luck and not just from your family, from just like random people.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. So.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, it's. Yeah. When we, when I was home, I saw my old cheerleading coach, which was so fun. And she, she, we were talking and I was like, God, how did, how did you do it? Like, how did you make all of us 15 year olds care so much about this thing? It became. It was life or death. It was like if we didn't win, we were going to die.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Like you were at the Olympics in your life.

[Monica Padman]

Yes, we were. We were all working together so hard. A huge team of people.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And everyone was on the same page. And like she said, she said, I don't know. She was like, I, I don't. I think about that all the time too. You guys were so like the dedic. She too was sort of blown away by then. She's been still, she's still. She runs a gym. She's so successful in what she does, but she looks back on that too. And so there is just some like, kind of some weird luck you get. Like, I landed in that environment where you had to show up. There was no other option but to be your best. And. Yeah. There's just so many lucky parts.

[Dax Shepard]

You're gonna love Angela Duckworth's new book. I'm reading like a pre copy of it.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, fun.

[Dax Shepard]

It's all about the power of situation. She hinted at it the last time she was here. She's like, grant Grit was all about individual willpower, determination, dedication, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. And I think you might have remembered she had a graduate student of hers that was kind of like, this is a little bit of. Remember, he kind of like called her out, God bless her. She was like, open enough to hear him out and start exploring. So, yeah, like the last decade of her life post grit has been really opening itself up to the enormous impact of environment, everything around you. And she points out, like, everything around you is objective. And then everything inside you is completely subjective.

[Monica Padman]

Totally. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And yeah, that thing you experienced on the team, you were a product of an environment at. Yeah. Where each of you challenged each other in rows. And she said, you know, yes, you can get born into terrible situations, yes, you can have terrible parents, but you always have some situational agency. And I think if you recognize the power of the situation, you can put yourself in different situations. You'll respond accordingly.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I love it. I'M loving it so much.

[Monica Padman]

I'm so we should have her on to talk about. We must.

[Dax Shepard]

We must. Yeah. Okay. Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Exciting. Okay, I'm pivoting because I have a really important question.

[Dax Shepard]

I can't wait to answer it.

[Monica Padman]

So what would you do if your bar of soap that you wash your hands with. Okay, it's hand soap, but it's a bar.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

It flies out. Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And you like it? You like that soap a lot?

[Dax Shepard]

Volcanic ash.

[Monica Padman]

No, that's from my body.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay.

[Monica Padman]

You're washing your hands and it flies out. Slippery.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And it goes directly into the toilet.

[Dax Shepard]

No problem.

[Monica Padman]

Really not a problem.

[Dax Shepard]

Wait, is there feces in the toilet?

[Monica Padman]

No, but yawn.

[Dax Shepard]

A little bit of yawn.

[Monica Padman]

No, but it was just flushed.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Like seconds before.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. No one is gonna like this, but this is a fact.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Your kitchen sink is a thousand times more dangerous than your toilet bowl. There is way more harmful, potential, potential harmful bacteria on your. In your sink. So if you dropped your hand soap in the sink, you wouldn't think anything of it. You'd rinse it off and. And wash it a little bit?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, that's. It is interesting. I wash my soap sometimes, which feels insane.

[Monica Padman]

You're like, like, to what extent is it self cleaning and to what extent is it not? Where does the self cleaning line get drawn?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, it's the demarcation. Yeah, but that wouldn't. That would be fine.

[Monica Padman]

You'd be fine.

[Dax Shepard]

Absolutely, absolutely.

[Monica Padman]

Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

It's just water in there and there's a little bit of your yawn residue, which is mostly.

[Monica Padman]

And residue. Poo poo residue duty.

[Dax Shepard]

No, stool balls.

[Monica Padman]

Stool ball.

[Dax Shepard]

We heard this is Easter egg for armchair anonymous coming up.

[Monica Padman]

So this happened to me, obviously.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. What did you do? I already know what you did.

[Monica Padman]

What do you think I did?

[Dax Shepard]

You used. Used it.

[Monica Padman]

I didn't.

[Dax Shepard]

I. I don't even know you.

[Monica Padman]

I know. Like I was staring at this. So. You know, I have round. I have this soap. It's round. It's very cool. It looks like a stool ball, but it's white.

[Dax Shepard]

Begging to be slipped out of your hand for crying.

[Monica Padman]

I know, but I've used it enough that it's like now it's just like a dome. Like the bottom is flat.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

And it's like it's half cut in half and semi. Hemisphere, you know, it's like slow motion. I saw it twirling in the air. Air and then plop, right in the middle of the toilet. And I, I looked at it for A while. Because I was like for a second and you know, this is kind of like when I thought the rat got in the kettle. Like sometimes my brain goes a little haywire.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I was like, should I just flush.

[Dax Shepard]

It up your hole?

[Monica Padman]

And then. Yeah. I was like, no, I'm not. I can't. I can't flush it. That's bad for the toilet. It'll clog. But I was like, but I don't want to put my hand in there for some. I like really did not want to put my hand in.

[Dax Shepard]

And there was off brand. You'll get down.

[Monica Padman]

I know. Remember that one time, you know, what did you do? Have I even. Have I talked about it on here? I'm sure. I'm sure I did. When I first started my seizure medication.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And I had my morning bm. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

It was like the first day and I looked and it was in there.

[Dax Shepard]

The medicine was the. The capsule.

[Monica Padman]

The whole thing.

[Dax Shepard]

The entire thing. Yeah. Well, do you remember that?

[Monica Padman]

To see. I had to see.

[Dax Shepard]

That's right. That's right. I do remember. Yeah.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

So you had to.

[Dax Shepard]

For your help.

[Monica Padman]

I had to.

[Dax Shepard]

That's right.

[Monica Padman]

But this first. And it was. It was flushed, but it was recently flushed. I was like, I don't want to put my hand in there. And then I did.

[Dax Shepard]

I feel like I'd just be able to get rid of the top layer of the soap and be done to fresh.

[Monica Padman]

I mean, that's. I. That's what my thought was, is like, should I just rinse it off? It's soap. It's self cleaning. I just get this top layer hair off. But I was like, I don't believe in self cleaning anymore all of a sudden. And I threw it in the garbage.

[Dax Shepard]

I was gonna say, my curiosity's killing me. How did you retrieve it? Tongs from.

[Monica Padman]

No, I put my hand.

[Dax Shepard]

But you did. Yeah, I did want it.

[Monica Padman]

I didn't. I didn't want to, but I was like, I guess I have to. And I put my hand in and I grabbed it and I just threw it straight in the garbage. And then I had to get another other soap to clean my arm and my hands.

[Dax Shepard]

There's a whole thing.

[Monica Padman]

It's kind of a Jonathan Haidt, like.

[Dax Shepard]

Thought explorer, moral dilemma, moral dumbfounding dilemma.

[Monica Padman]

Because like, yeah, it, it's. It's like technically and morally fine.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

But it felt really wrong.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

So I had to throw it away.

[Dax Shepard]

That makes me think of. I took Delta to breakfast on Sunday. I'm trying to think what topic brought up morals and ethics. Ooh. It was really fun to start exploring that with her.

[Monica Padman]

What is she. I mean, she's so ethical.

[Dax Shepard]

I think I do too. Yeah. Yeah. And like kind of innately.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Quite ethical.

[Monica Padman]

She is.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I don't know where she got it.

[Monica Padman]

Oh my God.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm trying to think what topic came up. And I was just like, yeah, you know, you get to pick what you think is moral or immoral. And I think she was asking like a right or wrong question, you know, and we got to explore it. Anyways. I just am. It's so fun to be having deeper and deeper conversations with the kids as they get older.

[Monica Padman]

I love that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. She was reading. She has a graphic novel she got for Christmas. You might, might have seen this. This was at my birthday dinner.

[Monica Padman]

Wait, that's the one. I thought that was Kristen's.

[Dax Shepard]

No. So I don't even know who got it for Carly. Oh, my sister.

[Monica Padman]

Yes. That makes so much more sense.

[Dax Shepard]

Tell me you were flummoxed.

[Monica Padman]

Yes. Because Kristen pulls out this book and, and I, I, maybe I jumped in the conversation late because she said Carly got this. It's about this Carl. And I thought it was for Kristen. And I was like, she got you a graphic novel. Like I did think that was weird.

[Dax Shepard]

Brand for sure.

[Monica Padman]

Kind of like me putting my hand in the toilet.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

But now that I know it's. That makes so much more sense.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. So we just had the sweetest conversation because there's some adult themes, I guess in it, and she wanted to know if it was okay that she was reading these adult themes and she felt like maybe conflicted. And I said, your gut will tell you. Yeah, Your gut will tell you when you're ready for things and when you're not ready for things. And just listen to your gut. There's no right or wrong or it's too early or too late. Your gut will. Will tell you. So don't worry. You don't have to worry about what's right or wrong.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

You just have to feel what's right or wrong for you or when you're uncomfortable and maybe even sometimes you're uncomfortable. But it's tolerable uncomfort.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Yeah. She's so cute. We had a horrible situation. Situation where I, you know, she loves these melegs, which I think is take also taking the world by storm. They're so cute, these little mice. Great characters.

[Dax Shepard]

They're like little 3D printed.

[Monica Padman]

No, they're cloth.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, they're claws.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, they're really cute.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

And you collect them, and then you collect their little, you know, house, you know, little, like, appliances and. Yeah, those.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, yeah. They're all over the house.

[Monica Padman]

They're so cute. I kind of feel like. Like, I wish I could have some.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

But it feels like maybe.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, you could definitely have some. You think a guy might be.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Weirded out.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

This is kind of like the d conversation from 2020. Oh.

[Monica Padman]

If you were wearing your diaper, if.

[Dax Shepard]

You were in your 20, if you, like, met a girl at a bar and you hooked up and then she said, I got to throw my diaper before I go to bed. Yeah. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I don't.

[Dax Shepard]

I think if you're cute, you pull it off. And I. So I think you could pull that off for sure.

[Monica Padman]

Sure. I just don't think there's an amount of cuteness that gets to the diap.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

The die.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, you know, we asked all the men in the. In the pod, and all the women were like, absolutely not.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And the men were like, yeah. How cute is she? Yeah. Yeah. You could kind of go, oh, this is adorable, this girl. So, I mean, she can't be a child. You don't want to be. That's. That's. You got to be really clear about what's happening. You're with an adult.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Then you find out the. This adult wears night dice is an.

[Monica Padman]

Is efficient because it's not. Okay. This was also part of it. It's not that she can't control her.

[Dax Shepard]

Pee or all day long she doesn't wear a dip.

[Monica Padman]

It's just that she doesn't want to wake up in the night to go.

[Dax Shepard]

To the bathroom to remind people. This stems from my game plan of starting to wear nighttime diapes. So I didn't have to wake up and pee anymore.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. And then people were like, what. What about when you're traveling? I'll get a type when I go to that city.

[Monica Padman]

Like, that's the question. Anyway. Maygs. So they're really. And she wanted one of the things on her list for her birthday and Christmas was a dollhouse for her. Melee and Kristen told me about this, and I. And Kristen was like, she doesn't need, like, an official one. You can just get her some random one. And I was like, no plywood box. Yeah, yeah. Like, get her a shoe box. And I was like, absolutely not. If she wants the official one, she's getting.

[Dax Shepard]

Getting it.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And so I go on the website, the USA website, Mayleck. And it's I order what's there.

[Dax Shepard]

Huh?

[Monica Padman]

Okay. And I'm excited, and I tell her it's coming, and then we go to Nashville. And someone had got her one for Nashville too. That's gonna stay in Nashville.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, great.

[Monica Padman]

The one for her that I ordered arrived while I was gone. So I saw that it arrived.

[Dax Shepard]

Uhhuh.

[Monica Padman]

But I didn't see it. Right. So then we're in Nashville, and she's like, oh, you know, look at this. And she. She was showing me the box. I was like, oh, my God, it's so cute. Exciting. Well, you'll have one for both houses.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And then I get home, and I was like, this box looks tiny.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay, now I'm up to speak. Because I saw you guys unwrapping this I got yesterday or the day before.

[Monica Padman]

A couple days ago.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I was like, oh, no. But. But then I can. I was like, well, maybe you have to set it up.

[Dax Shepard]

Maybe it expands.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

The box looked too small, right? That was the issue.

[Monica Padman]

Way too small. And I got nervous because all I just. She deserves the best. Well, yes, she does. And I. I was like, oh, my God. And then I get. So I come into the house, and you. I don't see her, but she's there. But I don't see her. And you're standing there, and you're like, what is that? And I was. Was like, it's Delta's dollhouse. But I think there's something wrong. I don't understand. It's so small, and I don't know. This is bad. And then she, like, pops her little head out, and it's like, it's gonna be perfect. It's perfect. And I was like, I don't know, Delta. It looks really small. And she was like, it doesn't matter if it's small. It. It's exactly right. And then of. Then I'm like, it better be a mansion dollhouse. Like, for her, it has to be so perfect. And, like, then we opened it, and it is wrong. I mean, it's. It's right. It's what is available on the site. I looked it up. But, like, so I don't know how you guys got that other one for Nashville because it's not on that USA.

[Dax Shepard]

Site, but I don't know either. I'm. I'm really conflicted about all this stuff.

[Monica Padman]

So. So then it's. Now what I got her is a suit casa. So it's just this, like, small suitcase. And, you know, and I. And I. And I. You know, she Took it out. And I was like, oh. You know, I responded very negatively.

[Dax Shepard]

I was like, you really yucked the yum. The potential yum. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I was like, sue, casa. What is this? And she was like, it's great. And she was like, this is perfect. I need different kinds. And everyone has different size houses, so it's good. And I was like, oh, my God, this person is so sweet. Like, it's. It's unbelievable.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

[Dax Shepard]

You now just jogged my memory of how we got on ethics.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

She randomly said to me at Cafe 101. Cause I do. And I'm. I'm on the fence about this, but I do it. I let her order more. I let her order whatever she wants. I can't even relate to it. Right? Like, just the way we grew up versus how, like, you know, if she wants pancakes and she wants eggs, I'm like, yeah, go for it. Yeah. And she just. Out of nowhere, she said, dad, do you want to tell me I can't order as much? I go, you know, here's my thing about you ordering too much. I don't care if you order too much. I can afford to buy it. I said, and I recognize that you have a lot of decision anxiety, and for me, it's very easy to solve that problem with another 6 dol. Sell our order of pancakes.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

But I do worry a lot that I'm setting you up for failure because you're gonna grow up. You can't afford to order whatever you want. I feel like I get scared. I'm not preparing you for the world. The world. And she said, okay, but is it wrong? That's how we got on it. Is it wrong? And I said, well, you know, there's a lot of rungs to this ladder. There's, like, legally, what's right and wrong. I said, there. There are morals we would all agree on. Don't kill, don't rape, don't steal. Don't hurt other people. I said, and then there's this whole area where you have to decide what your own ethical code is.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

And one of mine is I try not to waste. Yeah. And I try to leave the world as I found it. And on a great day, I leave it a little better. I said, you notice you've never seen me ever leave something in the sink. It's a stupid moral of mine. I just won't leave it. Or worse than I found it. And she said, okay. And I said, so you have to decide if you feel guilty about Wasting.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

And it's personal and it's up to you. I'm not gonna assign you your morals, but that's what's kind of on the table. And she said, okay, okay, I want you to tell me, I think you're ordering too much. You're gonna waste some in the future. Oh. And I said, okay. And then she got a to go box for her french fries. We're never gonna eat these french fries. Like while she's doing. I was, I want to be like, well, isn't the time. These things are never getting eaten. They're going to sit in the fridge for eight days and then I'm going to throw them out, blah, blah, blah. But I just had to kind of honor the moment. So then we walked out with a half eaten order. French fries. But anyways, this little girl, this little.

[Monica Padman]

Girl, she's too much. She really is too much. It's like a lot. It's a lot. It's overwhelming. But I have, I have zero.

[Dax Shepard]

Come.

[Monica Padman]

For me in the comments. I won't read them. I have zero guilt about wasting food. I don't. And it's, it is kind of weird. It's like, why don't I.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, you can make a lot of compelling arguments in all directions. So one of the arguments I make for myself when we are wasteful is like, we're wasting our money, but I'm putting it into the world. I don't think should be sitting here and squirreling everything I have. So I just always remind myself when I have kind of wasted money, well, I wasted it by giving some small business that money or some manufacturer, whatever. So in that way I'm like, well, that's not bad at all. In fact, the more we get out of my pocket and everyone else's, that's the best, probably. And then no one's gonna like this. They'll come for me in the comments. Food, it is not a finite resource. It is. So there's growers making money, there's the grocery store that sold it. There's all people in this chain that were employed. And yes, if you want to zoom out as an unethical. Because someone's starving over there. Yes. But that's a totally false argument because I can't get that food to that person over there. And if I don't waste it, it's not going to them. So this is like, it's a hypothetical. That's not reality.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So I don't get bogged down in that. But the thing that gets me more I spun out and I can't tell it's just my own child. And what's going on is like, so this thing you're talking about, this, these toys.

[Monica Padman]

May legs.

[Dax Shepard]

May legs. And then there's fuglers.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, we talked about fuglers.

[Dax Shepard]

And in my opinion, there's too many fuglers. Like, you shouldn't have this many. And then I walk outside and I'm like. And I have seven cars I've collected over the years. So, like, I'm not in a position to be critical. But then I go, but I bought those cars.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, but she didn't.

[Dax Shepard]

This is why the Good Place was made.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

Being ethical all times is nearly impossible in our modern world.

[Monica Padman]

There's not. To one person it's this, and to another person it's that. Like, it's also why we're so divided. We all have such different ethics and, and what we think. I mean, to me, yes, there are some things that are there objectively wrong. And I. And sometimes when I hear other people's talk and I'm like, you don't think that. Yeah, it's like so startling. But then. But I agree with you. There's this middle portion that it really is very, very, very individual.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

Because weirdly. Weirdly for me, wasting is almost like. It's like a personal respect. Like, like when I am at a restaurant and I order something, I eat what I want to eat of it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And if I was like you. Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, Agreed. That's another one of my arguments, is like to make yourself take on excess calories. Your body told you you don't want is insane. To make who happy.

[Monica Padman]

And just like, I don't want any more, I should be okay with not wanting anymore. I don't. I. The. There's a gluttonous element on the other side of it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

That's like, I don't like the way that is in people. So I don't. I don't know. It's weird.

[Dax Shepard]

Chris and I talk about this a lot because we get in a little debates about what. What is wasting and what's not. In my opinion is you have to also be very pinpointed about when is it waste. Once you've ordered it, it's done. Yeah, it's completely done. If you bought something from the store and you brought it back to your house and now you're keeping it in your house because you don't want to waste, that's a. That's a fantasy that the buying people eat it. Well, I'm Just saying people will us. Yeah, we have just piling up because we would feel terribly guilty to throw it away. Stuff you can't donate. We do a lot, lot of donut. But. Yeah, but my point is always like it's too late if you want to cut back on waste. It's the buying of it.

[Monica Padman]

Totally. That's right.

[Dax Shepard]

Once you've bought it, forget it, you're off. You might as well do whatever you want. Whether you eat it or you throw it in the trash, or you stick it in your ass, or you light it on fire, it's irrelevant. It's that you bought it and now it'll be replaced with more manufacturing.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

So that's done. It happened. The second there's no wasting or not wasting it, it's over.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm also reading the Ezra Klein book Abundance and yeah, he, he, he, he gets into climate in a, in a, in a really comprehensive all facets way, which I love, which is like you have different movements within the environmental movement and one of them is really just a judgment on consumerism. A lot of the environmental movement, people in it, what they really want is they think we made this in this pact with the devil years ago when we became a consumeristic capitalist society. Right. So what they really want is for us to not be that way. Now what are the odds the world's gonna do that? That's not gonna happen. But people are not going to go back to a prematerialistic world.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

He said now you have another bigger group which is like, there's clearly a lot of waste in the system and there's a lot of resources being spent on stuff that shouldn't be spent on.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

The problem is people don't agree on what those things are. And then I think you get down to what I hope should be everyone's core value is like, my ethics aren't above yours.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

They're mine.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

You got yours. That's a superiority in, in the, in the all knowingness of thinking. Yours are the ones everyone should agree on.

[Monica Padman]

What about like the want, like, what about like if someone's like, well, I'm allowed to like hurt this person. It's like that there should be some. Right.

[Dax Shepard]

Well again, that's why there's ones that we actually all agree on. Everyone agrees that you shouldn't be allowed to assault people, kill people, rape people, steal from people.

[Monica Padman]

I guess those are laws. I guess that's when they become law.

[Dax Shepard]

They're the Ten Commandments. They're like, you know, they've been agreed upon for quite a long time. And then this other batch, like as much you're convicted about it, it's the other batch.

[Monica Padman]

It is funny though, because I was, I am very materialistic. It's no secret. I like buying stuff.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I like looking nice. I like whatever. But I was at a store at home, a store I like. But I was looking around and all of a sudden I was just like, there's so much stuff.

[Dax Shepard]

Crap.

[Monica Padman]

There's just stuff all just like random stuff everywhere. What are we doing? Like, I did have this, like, what are we doing as. As a people.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, he brings that one up. He's like, of all these buckets, you've got fast fashion cement. Cement is an enormous emitter of carbon when it's made and it's. We need it for construction. And it's like, you certainly have one person saying, we don't need a. Another football arena.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

The other one works.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Legit. I'm going, looking at fast fashion and going, that shit's that. You don't need that.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

But I want, you know, like totally.

[Monica Padman]

Well, it's hard though because it's like there are sizes so many parts of this. Because fast fashion for me, I'm like, okay, I'm against fast fashion. Right. Because I can afford.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, exactly. It's a total privilege to have that privilege.

[Monica Padman]

So to me, I'm like, you're a young, poor girl.

[Dax Shepard]

You want an outfit, man.

[Monica Padman]

Of course you want to be able to have it. That is also what I feel. So I'm like, ah. I'm so conflicted about this because I do think there should be that available for people who, who don't have the privilege I have yet. Then what I do is like, I think there should be some of those options, but I should not participate in it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Since I don't have to.

[Dax Shepard]

Exactly. Like, you do the things that you can do or that you're willing to do.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. But the judgment is the problem. The across the board judgment is like not looking at any nuance.

[Dax Shepard]

We must all get a little looser on our grip of all in all this all, you know, definitive it's left. It's right. All these different binaries are like guys, life. And its best outcome is like we tried to service five or six principles and we did. We optimized all of them as much as we could. But they all took a hit.

[Monica Padman]

Hit along the way. I also, I. I just think maybe a good resolution is to be more focused on you, your how you walk through life.

[Dax Shepard]

Worry about what you're doing.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. And if. And if this thing that you're doing. Yeah. Just try to be the version of you that you think is ethical, moral, whatever. And I'm gonna stop looking outward.

[Dax Shepard]

Don't tell a sister. Single person about it. Live your life and you'll be appealing to people who want to model what you do. Be an example. Don't be a preacher.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Anyway. Yeah, Kumail.

[Dax Shepard]

Where does he land on fast fashion? Did we get that out of him?

[Monica Padman]

I forgot to ask.

[Dax Shepard]

He does not wear fast fashion. He's very well dressed.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, he doesn't, but he's privileged.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

He doesn't have. Have to. Unstoppable is a movie with Denzel.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure is. And Chris Pine and Ethan Suplee.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly. That's probably how we got on the subject. Okay. I looked up how much the Coons vacuum cleaner in the box is worth. A Jeff Koons vacuum cleaner. Artworks worth varies significantly with some new Hoover convertibles selling for millions. Example, over 4 million at Sotheby's, over 5,5 million at Christie's. While smaller inspired or vintage models might fetch a few hundred to a few thousand dollars at places like ebay, showing the vast difference between collectible fine art and regular items. Okay, so his are in the millions.

[Dax Shepard]

I want to say that the one.

[Monica Padman]

That one. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

My friend found the piece of. I don't know if I told that whole story in this episode. The reason I even know about these vacuums is a friend of mine worked for the insurance company that had insured them. And I know that the collection. I want to say there were three. Three in this collection, I think at that time were $8 million. And this was 15 years ago.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And there was a piece missing.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

At some point the. The art piece had been serviced or cleaned and a piece got lost. And then there was a claim laid on it. And so if we don't find this piece.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

The insurance company has to pay out $8 million. And my boy found the piece. Oh, he's like a sleuth.

[Monica Padman]

Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

He just has to go to New York and befriend all. All these art critics and find. Get himself into this warehouse.

[Monica Padman]

Interesting. Wow, that is a cool looking vacuum, I have to say.

[Dax Shepard]

It's very cool. But what's hilarious is all it is is the. The vacuum from the store in a loose light box problems.

[Monica Padman]

That's where my ethics are drawn. Like I would not feel ethical putting an existing thing in a loose sight box and calling. Calling it my art I would not feel ethical doing that. But Jeff is his own guy, and it's beautiful.

[Dax Shepard]

Something about it. I think it's ridiculous. And I look at it, and I like looking at it.

[Monica Padman]

Sure.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. So he said he had just gotten some massage on his jaw, and then he was crying about his dead grandma.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And then I looked at that experience.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you.

[Monica Padman]

Nah.

[Dax Shepard]

Nah.

[Monica Padman]

So my emotions are already a veil.

[Dax Shepard]

That's true.

[Monica Padman]

But I looked up our jaw muscles attached to emotion because also Elizabeth. Lame Elizabeth and Andy. Beth's dead. Nobody's listening. Right. She talks about how she can't have sex, and unless her jaw is, like, relaxed.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Whoa.

[Monica Padman]

Like, it's, like, connected to, like, her horniness.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my God.

[Monica Padman]

Isn't that interesting?

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. So is his job to massage those and keep them pliable?

[Monica Padman]

I. Well, I'm sure he does if he wants.

[Dax Shepard]

Like, in my only route. Route to sex was relax mastoids. I feel like I'd become an expert on masseuse. On loosening.

[Monica Padman]

Excuse me. That was disturbing.

[Dax Shepard]

What did you say?

[Monica Padman]

I said masseuse.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, yeah. I want a massage therapist to reclaim that title the way women have reclaimed. And I agree, black people have reclaimed. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

We know where I'm going with everything, so. So I looked it up. Yes. Jaw muscles are directly linked to emotions. Stress, anxiety, anger, anger, even happiness. Because jaw tension, or relaxation through the body's fight, orf, flight response, and nervous system, leading to clenching or a slack jaw. And this physical tension can also worsen emotional states, creating a feedback loop. So that's cool.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. I. You said 67% of people have teeth nightmares. Looks like 39 to 40% of people have dreams about their teeth falling out or rotting out at least once, making it a very common nightmare theme. Though rates of recurring dreams are lower, around 8 to 16%. These dreams are often linked to stress, anxiety, or feelings of powerlessness. But sometimes physical dental irritation, like teeth grinding during sleep, can trigger them. Yeah. Nearly four in ten adults have experienced teeth dreams. I'm so rare. I guess technically I'm in. The majority of these are.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Right.

[Monica Padman]

But, like, still, you just don't have that nightmare. I don't.

[Dax Shepard]

You must not carry a lot of tension in your jaw. I had always thought it was my orthodontia history.

[Monica Padman]

Right. But it's. It's actually your powerless history.

[Dax Shepard]

Hate powerlessness. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I had a dream last night that I was late. I was like. I was in Boca Raton.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

And I. And I had to get. No. Was I in Boca? I think so. And And I looked at the clock.

[Dax Shepard]

Is it Boca Raton or Boca Raton?

[Monica Padman]

I don't know.

[Dax Shepard]

I think it might be Raton, but.

[Monica Padman]

In the south, not to be true. Boca Raton.

[Dax Shepard]

Maybe it is. Maybe we were saying it wrong in Detroit. We say most things wrong in Detroit.

[Monica Padman]

Well, and I was there, and I looked at the clock, and. And the fact check was starting in 11 minutes.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wait. Oh, you were in Boca Raton Or Tan.

[Monica Padman]

And I had to get here in 11 minutes. I had to get to the airport.

[Dax Shepard]

You can't do it in 11.

[Monica Padman]

And I was trying. I was, like, trying to get. And trying to get my bags, and I couldn't get to the right bag claim and a.

[Dax Shepard]

It was a lot more than my teeth. Now what has taken over my teeth is my goddamn phone. I'm always. It's always a flight. I always need to check if I can delay, like, find another flight later because I'm not gonna make it to the airport. And I cannot get my phone. Like, every time I open my phone, I'm on a weird screen and I have a bug. It's like the old days on your computer when it gets taken over on aol.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And you just fucking pop up screens, everyone. You could not. You had to throw your computer in the trash, take over.

[Monica Padman]

It would get a virus, and it was just done.

[Dax Shepard]

Viruses. Yeah. Yeah. So in my dream, my phone always has this virus, and I can't get to the Internet to change my flight. And that now is. I'm having that one at least three times a month. Weird.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Huh.

[Dax Shepard]

I think that might just be, like, having a pretty busy schedule.

[Monica Padman]

Sure.

[Dax Shepard]

I think.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Like, feeling like, what do I.

[Dax Shepard]

So many things in my calendar and.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, yeah, I get that. Okay. Was it Evan Peters and Mary of East Town? Yeah, this was. So remember when he told us a lot of Indians have an extra thumb?

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, yeah. It's true.

[Monica Padman]

Preaxial polydactyl.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, so this is specifically just the thumb?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, my Tama. When he said that, I was like, oh, my God. Like, I, like, really kind of hated that. The thought of an extra thumb on Indian specifically.

[Dax Shepard]

It was like, even more other.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, why?

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, that's the guy he was talking about.

[Monica Padman]

He is very handsome.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my God. So for the listener, it's not what you think. It's not two individual thumbs. It's one thick thumb that then branches into two right.

[Monica Padman]

Tips.

[Dax Shepard]

Tips.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

Whoa, dude.

[Dax Shepard]

Wow. I've never seen that. And that's common in India. And what I love. Is he. He doesn't. He's proud of that.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. He's a big.

[Dax Shepard]

He's not hiding it at all.

[Monica Padman]

He's a big movie star.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

I know.

[Dax Shepard]

A very big movie movie star. It's got a hand thing, and he hides it really, really well.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, no, he's owning it, which I love, but it does stress me out.

[Dax Shepard]

It does. And the thumb itself, from the angle where you're looking at the palm, it definitely looks like a cute. Like, not a frog head, not a turtle head. It does look like a. Like, imagine the gap between the two thumbs is a mouth. And then I see an eyeball on the top.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. It kind of looks like Marcel. The shell Seashore. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

It's a little character.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I. He must. Does he. Do you think he has dexterity in it? And he can. I hope. Well, he would have to. Right? But I wonder if he can make that move like a pac man mouth.

[Monica Padman]

I think he can.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wow.

[Monica Padman]

Now, while exact numbers for India are scarce, polydactyl is notably that way.

[Dax Shepard]

Your middle name's Lily.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. What if I had it and they got it removed? Because hold. Notably more common in Indian populations, especially preaxial polydact. Extra thumb to side. With some studies suggesting rates as high as 1 in 3,000 births in India. Much higher than general global rates. Okay. Strong genetic component, it says. Obviously die. Yeah. It also says, though, that a lot of people get it. REM studies, they get it removed at, like, birth.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure. Okay. That means 400,000 people in India have it. If it's one in 3,000.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

If it's one in 3 thousand. 400,000. You can make a damn good living as the doctor who does this.

[Monica Padman]

It's the second most common congenital hand disorder. What. What if I had that and they got it removed?

[Dax Shepard]

You didn't.

[Monica Padman]

How do you know?

[Dax Shepard]

Because you'd have a massive scar on your thumb. And to my knowledge, I respect your thumb in great detail, but I think you.

[Monica Padman]

What if I just.

[Dax Shepard]

He screamed out loud. Oh.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, I'm so.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. We all have our things. Every group has a thing.

[Monica Padman]

Well, no, it's. It's like. It's fine. Yeah, it just. I just was imagining growing up here with that. Oh, it was hard enough.

[Dax Shepard]

Have to wear gloves or something, and then you. Well, would you rather be known as the girl that wears the glove or the girl with three thumbs as a kid? I know. I'd rather be the guy who wore gloves. And you could just go, oh, my hands are really dry. And I. The doctor makes me wear these gloves. As you get older, you're gonna have to, like, pull your gloves off at some point when you find your true love.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God. This is why I, I would, I would really. I would not.

[Dax Shepard]

You'd be shut down because you're, you're very attractive and you, you're, you're a real catch and you're already mildly shut down. So if we would throw in a third thumb, I think.

[Monica Padman]

Well, you know me, like, I have a weird.

[Dax Shepard]

Again.

[Monica Padman]

I, like a self hatred, I guess, but of like, if a, if a freckle or a, like a mole mainly even. I mean, a freckle, like, pops up on my body.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I, I, like, really can't handle it. I, like, have to dig it out and it's. Which is probably causing cancer.

[Dax Shepard]

It's also a contradiction, which is. You love Delta's mole on your face.

[Monica Padman]

Right, the most.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. And freckles on other people. You love it.

[Monica Padman]

No, it, it has nothing to do with other people.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I know.

[Monica Padman]

I, I. Nothing.

[Dax Shepard]

No, I would. I'm going further. You actually like it in other people?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I think it's.

[Dax Shepard]

You hate it on yourself.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. And like, I have this freckle on this finger right here.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, you're always working on that.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, it, like it appeared in the last few years, and I hate it.

[Dax Shepard]

That is so. I mean, I don't want to call you crazy.

[Monica Padman]

No, it is crazy, but it'. It's crazy. I know it's crazy. I'm like, how could I be so.

[Dax Shepard]

I like it.

[Monica Padman]

You can see it.

[Dax Shepard]

You just held it up so I could see.

[Monica Padman]

I thought maybe it was invisible to everyone except me. Now I hate it even more.

[Dax Shepard]

No, I like it and everyone likes it.

[Monica Padman]

And sometimes I'm typing and I'm just like, ew.

[Dax Shepard]

You have to think of it as a part of your constellation.

[Monica Padman]

I don't want that.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so maybe gloves.

[Monica Padman]

And then you'll be like, what happened? You get a new thumb?

[Dax Shepard]

What happened? That thumb finally come in. That Indian thumb. Oh, my God.

[Monica Padman]

All right, that's it for Camille.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. I love you and everyone likes your freckles, so don't look at them.

[Monica Padman]

Don't zoom in. Guys, do not zoom in.

[Dax Shepard]

I want you to revisit hypnotism.

[Monica Padman]

He passed away.

[Dax Shepard]

I know.

[Monica Padman]

Really sad.

[Dax Shepard]

Such a sweetie.

[Monica Padman]

He was a really nice man.

[Dax Shepard]

That story he told about the woman that loved him and he thought he needed erectile distress dysfunction medicine. And she said, you don't need that. Let me take care of you. Do you remember they told that story.

[Monica Padman]

Oh.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my God. It was the sweetest story. He told it with such tenderness. Oh, I know. I really, really liked him.

[Monica Padman]

Go back in the archives. I get hypnotized. Yeah, it's pretty.

[Dax Shepard]

And it kind of worked.

[Monica Padman]

We'll say it worked because he's passed.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm gonna get you hypnotized and the only goal of the hypnotism is to convince you that it worked the first time. When you wake up, you're gonna think the first hypnos.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly.

[Kumail Nanjiani]

All right. Love you.

[Monica Padman]

Love you.

[Dax Shepard]

Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by free joining Wondry plus in the Wondry app or on Apple podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short [e-mail] survey.