Mark Ronson Returns

Summary

Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard

Episode: Mark Ronson Returns (September 3, 2025)

---

Episode Overview

This vibrant, nostalgia-fueled episode features the return of renowned DJ, Oscar winner, and Grammy-winning producer Mark Ronson. Hosted by Dax Shepard and co-host Monica Padman, the conversation dives into Ronson’s wild upbringing, his influential 90s New York club career, complex family history, struggles and triumphs, and the emotional journey behind his new memoir, Night People: How to Be a DJ in 90s New York City. Listeners are taken through tales of celebrity-laden childhood moments, the intoxicating highs and lows of nightlife, and the personal reckoning required to tell the whole, sometimes messy truth about one’s past.

---

Key Discussion Points & Highlights

1. Catching Up and Big Life Events

• Opening the Conversation: Dax and Monica catch up with Mark since his last Armchair appearance (06:41), noting major life changes: marriage and now having two daughters—paralleling Dax’s own family life.
• On Turning 50 ([05:46]):
  • Mark shares, “I don't feel a certain way, I think, because I'm just so fucking grateful about where I am with family...That was the thing I never pictured for myself.”
  • He discusses the pressure (and lack thereof) around milestone birthday parties, preferring meaning over spectacle.

2. The Lure and Revival of DJing

• Nostalgia for 90s NYC Nightlife ([08:08]):
  • Mark’s memoir prompts Dax to reflect on dancing and club culture, leading to a deeper exploration of aging out (or not) of nightlife.
  • Mark admits, “This book...just sounds like you really miss DJing. You need to go back to DJing.” ([08:42])
  • Mark describes hauling vinyl crates again: “I'm stumbling home into bed at like 2:30, 3 in the morning...I'm up at 6:30 with the kids, no matter what.” ([09:17-09:44])

3. The Power of Music, Memory, and Physicality

• Music & Aging ([11:31]):
  • Mark shares a study where music from seniors' youth slowed the aging process, and notes how uncompressed (vinyl) music can have calming effects on neurodivergent patients.
  • Quote: “It literally slowed the aging process of these people, because there's something about taking your brain back to that time.” ([11:31])
• The Emotional Reenactment of DJing ([10:44]):
  • Discussing the science of physical actions creating emotions, Mark relates playing old records physically to reliving emotional highs from his DJ days.

4. The ‘Night People’ Mentality and Family Roots

• Unique Upbringing ([16:44]):
  • Mark recounts his extraordinary childhood among rock stars: “Robin Williams, Mork and Mindy was the biggest thing...Mork came in and woke me up.”
  • Parental backgrounds: His mother’s working-class, punk spirit and father’s self-made, East London Jewish roots—both surviving and rebelling against expectations.
  • The meaning behind “Night People” ([21:25]): “All my community and friends in that thing were slightly cracked...maybe some addiction, maybe just some running from the daytime.”

5. Celebrity Childhood Anecdotes

• Michael Jackson & Sean Lennon Sleepovers ([22:26-25:46]):
  • Stories of sleepovers at Sean Lennon’s, with Michael Jackson engaging in child-like pranks and even giving Mark a bass line for a demo: “Michael...started to sing this bass line that went doo doo doo doo...I was like, okay, it's a little ripped off from Smooth Criminal, but we'll take it.”

6. Early Musical Discovery & Hustle

• First DJ Moment at Mom’s Wedding ([26:20]):
  • At age 10, Mark picks a song for his parents’ wedding: “I remember hearing the beginning of the song and just having this kind of rush, like, whoa, music is playing outside. And everybody has to listen to the song that I picked.”
• Learning Production & Gigs by Grit:
  • Access to advanced gear via stepdad’s studio.
  • Getting high school bands booked through connections with Sean Lennon (and some slick maneuvering): “I hoard out my best friend, Sean Lennon...I don't know if I ever told you this story.” ([34:51])

7. Transformation from Guitarist to DJ ([35:54])

• Falling for Hip-Hop:
  • Introduction to underground NYC hip-hop, all-ages raves, and obsession with turntablism.
  • “There was a side room where I saw this DJ named Ani...and I just became obsessed.” ([36:47])

8. Drug Culture, Neuroses, and Survival

• “Drugs and DJing” in the 90s ([37:08]):
  • Mark candidly reflects on early acid use, later cocaine, the anxiety and hangups fueled by family history—and how the lifestyle could have veered dangerously.
  • “My drug thing was like the frog in the slowly boiling pot of water.”

9. Innovating the Open-Format DJ Set

• Making a Name ([43:59-47:12]):
  • Developing his signature by mixing unexpected genres (e.g., ACDC into Biggie): “There was a split second...What the fuck is happening? And then just everyone surrendered.”
  • This innovation led to notoriety among both music fans and top hip-hop artists.

10. The Grind of Club Life and Gritty Logistics

• Physical Toll & Record Chasing ([49:49-50:41]):
  • Stories of hauling crates, hustling for promos, calling “gypsy cabs,” and the barely-glamorous side of it all.
  • “You could spend two days of the week just going to a lecture and then Atlantic...hoping they give you one record.”

11. Community, Competition, and Loss

• Triumphs and Tragedies ([52:36]):

  • Mark describes losing friends, including DJs, to the lifestyle (“the absence of surveillance is how I coined it”)—and the heartbreak and guilt that comes with surviving and thriving when many don't.
  • “I started to think about all these memories...I should start getting these memories down before they're really gone.” ([53:37])

• Similarities to Stand-Ups & the Comedy Cellar Era ([54:01-56:24]):

  • Shared neurotic energy, rhythm, high highs and lonely lows: “There's the most obvious thing. DJs call it rhythm. You guys call it timing...the difference between bombing and fucking killing is a hair's breadth.”
  • The role of validation, and how DJing is “constantly putting on a party you’re not participating in.”

12. DJ Camaraderie vs. Competition ([57:43-59:50])

• The DJ community’s odd blend of know-it-all helpfulness, late nights, competitiveness, and intense friendships, including with legendary contemporaries like DJ AM.

13. Choosing Craft Over Money, and the Path Back to Production

• Mark discusses his relative privilege but also lack of wild “safety net” money growing up.
• He deliberately leaves lucrative DJing at its peak to pursue making music, thanks (in part) to a crucial connection (63:23).
  • “I see DJing as this beautiful footnote...But I always wanted to make music.”

14. Returning to the Booth: Risks and Perspective ([62:28-63:16])

• Now, DJing is joy and nostalgia, but also risk—especially for his hearing:
  • “My tinnitus is so much worse after these gigs...I want to be scoring films and writing and producing music. And every gig...I feel a bit like Jackson Maine in ‘A Star is Born’: ‘We can't get back what you lost, but we can keep what you have.’”

15. Celebrity, Fan Interactions, and the “Music Guy”

• Tales of awkward fan DJ booth encounters, people trying to prove their “deep” musical knowledge, and humorous strategies for dealing with requests ([63:30-64:35]).

16. The Addiction of Work and the Industry's Unrelenting Pace

• Dax references the Avicii documentary as a warning about how endless work and travel grind down artists ([64:38-66:44]):
  • “There is always a festival in the world somewhere...You are literally not a grounded person.”

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On nostalgia and music’s power:
  “It just sounds like you really miss DJing. You need to go back to DJing.” (Mark’s friend, [08:42])
• On being a night person:
  “All my community and friends in that thing were slightly cracked...maybe some addiction, maybe just some running from the daytime.” (Mark, [21:16])
• On honesty in storytelling:
  “I didn't set out to excavate those parts…but the book would be disingenuous if I talk about night people…don’t talk about my demons.” (Mark, [40:06])
• On music and memory:
  “They started playing all this music...from the 30s and 40s, which is when these people have been in their formative years. And it literally slowed the aging process.” (Mark, [11:31])
• On transformation and DJing’s demands:
  “It’s a party you’re not participating in, which is interesting.” (Dax, [56:19])
• Advice for kids on humility:
  “He was smart enough as a kid to realize the kids would probably hate him if he went and bragged about that.” (Dax, [112:29])

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [04:41] — When Mark was first interviewed (June 2021)
• [05:46] — Mark on approaching 50 & feelings about it
• [08:08] — Dax on nostalgia and clubbing as you age
• [09:17] — Mark back to DJing, physical realities of the grind
• [11:31] — Studies on music, memory, and aging
• [16:44] — Delving into Mark’s wild childhood
• [21:25] — The deeper meaning behind “Night People”
• [22:26-25:46] — Michael Jackson and Sean Lennon stories
• [26:20] — Mark’s first true DJing experience
• [34:51] — Early gig hustle with Sean Lennon
• [35:54] — Discovery of hip-hop and start as a DJ
• [37:08] — Drugs, neuroses, and the dark side of nightlife
• [43:59] — Breakthrough by mixing rock and hip-hop at clubs
• [49:49] — The physical and logistical grind of DJ life
• [52:36] — Loss, heartbreak, and survivor’s guilt in the nightlife community
• [54:01] — Parallels to stand-up comics, validation, and loneliness
• [57:43] — Camaraderie and rivalry among DJs
• [62:28] — Risks of DJing in middle age, tinnitus, and hearing loss

---

Character & Tone

The episode is a dynamic mix of fond reminiscence, honest reckoning, self-deprecating humor, and genuine emotion. Mark is candid and reflective—willing to discuss both wild adventures and vulnerable admissions. Dax and Monica bring characteristic warmth, banter, and keen curiosity, drawing out both serious insights and playful stories.

---

Final Thoughts

Mark Ronson’s return to Armchair Expert is a love letter to New York nightlife, a candid reckoning with the joys and perils of “night people,” and a meditation on creativity, aging, and legacy. The episode is engaging both for fans of music history and those interested in the human stories behind fame, struggle, and reinvention.

Recommended For: Fans of pop culture, music, memoir, creative hustle; anyone facing a crossroads between youthful passion and adult fulfillment.

---

Notable Quotes (Quick Reference)

• “I have to play it. But also I could fully get a bottle of champagne thrown at my head.” (Mark, [45:08])
• “You could have never done anything and still written this book, and I would have read it.” (Dax, [25:49])
• “Luckily, I was more addicted to becoming famous than I was to coke.” (Tom Arnold, quoted by Dax, [39:38])
• “The difference between bombing and fucking killing is a hair's breadth of precision.” (Mark, [55:01])
• “I see DJing as this beautiful footnote in something that then obviously became more. But I always wanted to make music.” (Mark, [60:41])

---

For full details, listen to the episode: [Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard — Mark Ronson Returns, 09/03/2025]

Transcript

[A]

Wondry plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now. Join Wondry plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert Experts on Expert. I'm Dan Shepard and I'm joined by Lily Padman.

[B]

Hi.

[A]

Hi. I did an intro for you yesterday.

[B]

You did?

[A]

For Mom's car.

[B]

Oh, my goodness.

[A]

Well, I was trying to rattle off all your many nom de plors and there's just so many.

[B]

That's nice.

[A]

Today we have Mark Ronson. I don't know if he has any non deplores. You think I'm saying that correctly?

[B]

Yeah, I'm out on a limb with it.

[A]

Mark is an internationally renowned dj, Oscar winner and nine time Grammy award winning producer and songwriter. His albums are Late Night Feelings, Uptown, Special Version, Here Comes the Fuzz. But also he did the Barbie soundtrack.

[B]

He sure did. He did huge movies.

[A]

He wrote that awesome Du Lipa song that's on there.

[B]

UPT Funk, Valerie Electricity. He's one of the biggest music producers we got.

[A]

He's a monster. And he has a new Memoir out on September 16, 916 called Night People how to be a DJ in 90s New York City. And it's just a huge love letter to New York in the 90s.

[B]

And his stories are wild, as you'll hear.

[A]

No, he has one of the craziest childhoods and lives imaginable.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Please enjoy Mark Ronson. We are supported by JCPenney.

[B]

Guys, do not sleep on J.C. penney. They've got stylish clothes for everyone in your life. Yourself, obviously, your parents, your kids, your friend's new baby. There's something for every age, everybody and every budget.

[A]

Yeah, the budget part is huge because scoring a great deal is one of the last socially acceptable forms of bragging.

[B]

So true. Why does it feel so good when someone gives you an outfit compliment and then you drop that you paid less than they think. It's just really satisfying.

[A]

Yeah. And then you tell them where you got it. It's from J.C. penney. Yes. JCPenney. It's so good. I just got a second pair of Levi's that are just blowing my mind. They had a wash on there I couldn't find anywhere else. And boy, God, I look. I just. I'm approaching Beckham status with these slacks.

[B]

Nice. So if you've been sleeping on JCPenney, wake up and check it out. They've got fashion worth bragging about and.

[A]

They'Ve got a great Reward system too. That makes every shopping trip even more worth it. Shop jcpenney.com yes, JCPenney. We are supported by GoDaddy. You're a business owner. You've got expert skills building a website. Yeah, that might not be one on the resume. That's why there's GoDaddy arrow. Their AI makes it super easy. Type in a few prompts and boom, you've got a wicked looking site that pulls in customers for a limited time. Get an extra 20% off annual website plan when you visit GoDaddy.com Dax and enter promo code DAX20 at checkout. That's GoDaddy.com Dax promo code DAX20. Valid only on new 12 month basic premium and commerce plans purchased in the U.S.

[C]

What are you guys chewing? I'm jealous.

[A]

Oh, nicotine.

[C]

Oh, no, I'm okay.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

I mean, I did do nicotine gum for a long time, but it used to be in rectangles. Now it's in these little circles.

[A]

These are mint, these are lozenges. And then I augment also with cigarettes with a direct nicotine spray.

[C]

Okay, cool.

[A]

Which I'm gonna do right now.

[C]

And then how.

[A]

How do I sleep?

[C]

No, I just mean like, is there a weaning thing or you're just good with that now? Oh, no.

[A]

Cause there's nothing.

[C]

There's nothing bad about it. There's nothing bad about nicotine.

[A]

It's just a delivery. Why did you quit the gum? It's so fun and playful.

[C]

I think at some point I just didn't need it. Maybe I don't mean to. That sounds like I need it. Do you know, are you friends with Justin Theroux? He's just always. I like the patch, I like the gum. I don't know, it just stopped.

[B]

Most people are like you. They use it for a purpose, to get off and then they're done. But not you.

[C]

And I went back and forth a lot. And then it was the hypnotism. Cause I probably went back to smoking. And so the hypnotism was the thing that.

[A]

That's a big missing big different part of the story. Yes. You know, I wouldn't have known this off the top of my head, but we interviewed you in June of 2021.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Long time ago.

[A]

And then a couple months later, you were married.

[C]

I know.

[A]

And then you have since had two daughters. As I have two daughters. Congrats.

[C]

I have a really clear memory of listening to our podcast, our interview. Sitting in a car outside the In N Out. I got my burger and I Was going back to New York, I think I worked all day on a studio session, and it just come out just like one of those really lovely. Sitting in a car, listening to this interview, listening to me talk about my wife, knowing we're sort of about to get married. It's just a very Magnolia, Paul Thomas Anderson kind of lonely LA kind of thing. But also very warm and sweet because I was listening back to our thing, and I'm talking about my wife, who I obviously love. And it's funny, it's really ingrained in my memory. That interview we did.

[A]

Oh, good. That's our goal.

[C]

It was lovely.

[A]

That was through the terrible interface of computers.

[C]

That was computers.

[A]

That was a Covid interview.

[C]

Yeah. And we found out that you and Bradley Cooper have the same birthday three days apart.

[B]

September 4th. So you're a Virgo as well.

[A]

And he's about to turn 50.

[B]

I'm a Virgo. You're about to turn 50?

[C]

Yeah, in a few weeks.

[A]

It's her birthday in four days on Sunday.

[C]

Happy birthday.

[A]

How do you feel about 50?

[C]

It feels like full of shit. But I don't feel a certain way, I think, because I'm so fucking grateful about where I am with family. And that was the thing that I never pictured for myself. So I feel so settled in it. Everybody's like, are you gonna throw a big party? I keep having these flashes of seeing pictures online of, like, Nas's 50th birthday with everyone in tuxes, and it's like Gatsby. And in my head, I'm like, I've DJed so many great parties. I've had some great parties. My book is coming out 10 days later, I'm in the middle of fucking scoring a film. I don't think I'd be able to let go enough to have that party right now. I don't think I'd enjoy it. It's not really the time.

[A]

Well, you can put a pin in it. I was anti party as well. My birthday's January 2nd, which is the worst. We were in Mexico. We got norovirus on my birthday. Everyone was dead. I was like, wow. Literally might die on my 50th birthday.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Regardless, got home, and even though Kristen knows I didn't want a party, she did plan a surprise birthday party.

[C]

Was it a milestone birthday or. No, just a regular birthday. Oh, you just. You just.

[A]

I just turned 50 in January.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

So she rented the roller rink down the street, and I don't know how many of there was this, maybe 40 or so.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Probably some 40 people roller skating to a great playlist with some incredible barbecue was brought in. It was about as good as it could get.

[C]

What date was it? How long after the thing?

[A]

It was a couple weeks after my birthday.

[C]

At least I could do that. Yeah.

[A]

So when you're done with the film and the book comes out, maybe we rent moonlight rollerway and we just reset it.

[C]

I was trying to imagine the kind of thing where I was surrounded by people I love and doing stuff. Something that would be wonderful and not stressed out. I would be stressed out roller skating, but something the equivalent of that.

[A]

Yeah. What would be yours? Big kayaking party.

[C]

Yes. So just something fun. I don't know, like Greco Roman wrestling.

[A]

Yeah. That's great. Social and as big of an extrovert as I am, if a lot of people gather from me, I'm very uncomfortable with that. The roller skating rink for me was a dream because everyone already knows I'm there to skate. I love to skate. I skated the entire party other than blowing my candles out. So I'm just out there and then I'm seeing my hey. It's a nice little chat while you're skating and dancing. So it was a great night.

[B]

No pressure to have to talk to every single person because that's what I think.

[A]

Oh. People I haven't seen in a couple years are going to come. I owe all of them 35 minutes of heart to heart catch up because.

[C]

Yeah, you think about it. You're going to go around, say hi to everybody, and before you know it, it's three in the morning.

[A]

That's right. But I'm going to fast forward to a question I was going to ask you at the very end of this, which is reading your book got me so nostalgic. And I have been saying to Kristen for a while we had to go to Atlanta for work for something. And I said to her on the way there, like, we are going to go out dancing. Like, I'm going to find a club with some good hip hop and we're going to go dancing. And she's like, can it be at 8? And I'm like, no, that's not how clubs work.

[C]

And she's like, I can't do that with you.

[A]

I want you to go ahead and have fun. And it occurred to me, like, will you ever, as an old man still go to a club and enjoy that scene?

[C]

The crazy thing about this book is a really good friend of mine read it and he's always got a good, insightful off the Wall take on something. When I play him a piece of music or read this book, he's like, I love the book. It just sounds like you really miss DJing. You need to go back to DJing. I'm only playing vinyl again. So my first thought I was like, Jesus Christ. Like hauling those like 100 pound crates of things, I gotta find them all and like. Cause I've been DJing with digital not to get too techy, but for the last 20 years you DJ CDJs and Serato and all this stuff. But I was like, it's worth a try. So I started DJing again and there's this great club, you know, great clubs all over Brooklyn.

[A]

Oh, you're now currently not only just.

[C]

DJing, I'm like hauling crates of records. Like I'm stumbling home into bed at like 2:30, 3 in the morning. My wife, who is very happy for me but completely missed out fortunately on this first phase of my life, is just like, oh fuck, I married a dj, I didn't count for this. You know, it's just kind of supportive of it. But like I'm up at 6:30 with the kids, like no matter what.

[A]

And so you'll do it after getting home at three?

[C]

Yeah. Cause I kind of want to and I'll find a nap later in the day or something. So I have been. The difference is back when I was DJing in my 20s and 30s and it was my whole life, I was DJing every night then going out to see other DJs, am whoever on other nights because that's how you stay in the game. It's really hard for me to go out till three in the morning if I'm not working. But yes, I've had this weird thing where I'm like, oh fuck, it's like dragging me back in. This book is about New York in the 90s and me coming up as a DJ in my 20s. And it's a lot about the emotional highs and lows of being a dj. But I'm going out now and I'm playing music and hip hop from the 90s and 2000s, mainly because that's what all the fucking young kids are playing anyway. But it's so funny to play these records and be reliving these literally physical actions of this other time to kids who are not alive when I was doing it the first time. So it's kind of lovely.

[A]

So are you able to lock in and have the experience or does it feel like returning to high school?

[C]

I think it's both. There's obviously something about reminding myself by literally physically going through the motions of this thing when I was sort of at my best or my peak or at this magical time in my life, which is making the whole thing sort of come back.

[A]

There was two scientists. They wanted to catalog every single movement the face was capable of making. That was their objective. But what they found out on accident was when they were going, okay, well now do crying, right? They found out that the physicality can inform the emotions. Generally your emotions start the physicality, but it works in both directions. And so I can imagine where even if you had reservation going there, and this is gonna feel awkward once that physical activity, the memory of that might reverse engineer the emotion.

[C]

I read so many books and books about sound and how music works with the brain while I was writing my own book. Cause I just thought, who knows where I'll get a nice little tidbit. And one of my favorite studies is of this old age home where they started playing all this music and baseball games and things on the radio from the 30s and 40s, which is when these people have been in their formative years. And it literally slowed the aging process of these people. Because there's just something about taking your brain back to that time or whatever it is, you know? And then there's this other thing which I found in another book. Is that in a place for. I don't even know what you're supposed to call this thing, but the home for neurodivergent. Neurodivergent. Honestly, the first time I ever heard the word neurodivergent was in Barbie. I just thought it was so funny because she was like, look at that crazy. I mean, sorry, neurodivergent person.

[A]

Because sometimes, really in good faith, the amount of time I spend trying to figure out, like, what do I say? Yeah, how do I describe this?

[B]

How do we be polite and respectful? But also.

[C]

And the amount of time now it's taken me to find the right word, you're all gone somewhere else and actually angry at me. So it's.

[A]

No. So there's a neurodivergent.

[C]

There was a place where neurodivergent patients lived. And they would play records of Bach and Mozart that would calm them when they were having their more intense breakdowns. And they tried to switch out the records with MP3s and they played the same thing. And because they're compressed so they don't have. Have all of the same frequencies, the things that we don't necessarily hear, but the vibrate in the Skin are not in me3. It actually made the patients more agitated.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Oh, really?

[C]

So the only way that sort of links back to going back and DJing vinyl again is there is this thing. I don't like to get caught up too much in the vinyl versus things like, who the fuck cares? You're just not like an angry old man. But there's something about playing vinyl again for kids who've never seen anybody do that. I can just see they're kind of like watching. Like, it's a bit of a show and I'm not AM or a track with these crazy routines. But it is my chaotic vinyl of ballet and I'm throwing records on and off. There's a lot of reasons why I'm doing this, and I'm enjoying it. It's serving a purpose.

[A]

I want to say on the vinyl CD, MP3 thing, just minimally, one's a wave and one's a particle in a sense. Right. Like one has been broken into bits and assembled.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

And one is one continuous wave.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

What effect that might have on your brain or how you perceive that or not, I do think is possible.

[C]

I didn't want the book to get too nerdy if I was conscious of anything that might turn somebody off or make them want to skip. I was talking about the fucking record needles for too long. But I did learn, actually new things studying it. Like the way that you make a piece of vinyl, the grooves in it are just microscopic wiggles of electro fucking signals that are carved that then the stylus interprets to be sound. I was like, God, I've been playing this shit for like, 35 years and I never even knew that.

[B]

When you are now DJing, what is the different feeling? Because now you're established, you're a famous person, Right. And before you were coming up, there's a lot of hunger there. What is the feeling now? Like, how do you recreate that feeling?

[C]

I feel just as hungry because I think there's just something in all ways that I feel like I'm underdog or I have something to prove. Then I still think the fact that I've been out of the game, like, not DJing in nightclubs four times a week and in that zone where you can just walk into any club and know what to do and murder it, that already is enough to be like, am I gonna know what the. But the other thing is that now the fact that I'm, as you say, like, famous or I have records that people know. Uptown Funk, Valerie Electricity, whatever it is, I Have this sort of cheating advantage when back then I just had to go in on the merits of being a great DJ and playing records really well and murdering it. Now I know, oh, if there's a bit of a lull, I play Valerie and I'll get everybody. So I almost have not been playing my own records as well because I just want to earn it back the way I used to.

[A]

This is the same. You'll talk to any stand up comedian. Seinfeld famously will say, yes. When I go to a nightclub, I am gonna get five minutes of free time. They're gonna be so excited to be seeing me. But then that'll end. There is an objective reality in stand up. You're funny or not. And same with you. I would imagine you still can sense a room, you can read a room, you can feel it, and you still will perform or not perform. So at some point, I would imagine the actual act of doing it is very objective. So all the fame or whatever, the preconceived notions will be gone shortly and you'll either sink or swim.

[C]

Absolutely. And I try to write about that in the book. The book is very diaristic about the 90s. I really didn't want to, like, have any kind of. And 20 years later, I would go on to play at Coachella, whatever the fuck. Like, I just wanted to be like a kid.

[A]

I would have never known, standing in that shitty hovel.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

That I'd one day be holding Lady Gaga's hand.

[C]

Yeah. Looking stage left and seeing David Hasselhoff and Joanne, which also was cool.

[B]

I mean, it is interesting to be someone who's trying to come up. I mean, I think about, like, improv. We did improv. And when you're just like, oh, I just want people to come to this show. I just want more than 10 people to come to this show. And then you become a name. If you go do improv now, people are gonna just come because it's you. It's strange.

[A]

Now, what I love about the book is I'm always most interested in people's youth when I interview them.

[C]

Right.

[A]

I'll even get comments like, why don't you bring up this movie? I'm like, I don't care about that.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I care about, like, how people ended up being capable of making that movie. So I. Because this book, you're just taking me to the end of the 90s, basically. And even the beginning, you have a very fantastical. Is that the word? You have a really strange and unique childhood. Did you understand how unique it was.

[C]

Yes. I think I had a sense of both things. My parents were this young partying couple in London. My dad came from some money, so they had this house. There were all these rock stars always hanging out.

[A]

He had started a publishing company.

[C]

Yeah, a music publishing company. And that was like their world. And I remember waking up in the middle of the night and Robin Williams, Mork and Mindy was the biggest thing. And I loved Mork came in and woke me up and I had this vague hazy memory.

[A]

I'm saying it for you. He's definitely gacked out of his mind.

[C]

Gacked out of his mind. My mom is definitely having a good time too. And he keeps running to the window. I was used to the fact that adults were more fun at night. Adults in the day were a little scary and bad tempered and irritable and maybe you had to avoid them. But at night everything was all good, Interesting. So I remember thinking, thinking, this is strange and unusual, but I'm sure it perverted my sensibility of what was normal from an early age.

[A]

But he's leaving the room and you.

[C]

Say you forgot their thing. And he turns back and he knows right away and he's like, nanu nanu.

[A]

He gave him his catch.

[C]

He knew what I wanted.

[A]

Did he do this?

[C]

I think he did the thing.

[A]

Might not have the dexterity at that moment.

[B]

He didn't do it.

[C]

Oh God, he had the thing. And towards the end of the book, I was out at a restaurant and I saw him at the table and I just wanted to go up to him, but I kind of like punked out to ask him if he remembered my parents house. And the universe gave me a second opportunity. He walks towards our table, going to the toilet, And I'm like, Mr. Williams, I know this is so crazy and there's no way that you'll remember this, but one of my earliest childhood memories is you coming into my room as a kid. And he like stops for a second and he's like, wait, your parents had the house on Circus Road? And I was like, yeah. He goes, man, they threw some fucking crazy parties and just kept walking. Like, exactly what you want from Robin William. He even remembered it.

[A]

I bet he remembered it, cause it was at the beginning. Like, I bet if that had happened for him 18 years later, it gets in that murk of too many neat things happening at some point. So I think it's worth saying mom was from a pretty modest background, but she was very punk rock in spirit. And then dad was supposed to walk into Headon's. Is that what it's called?

[C]

Heron.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Heron, which was an enormous property management company at one point, had billions of dollars. It was sitting on a platter. And he grew his hair long and went into music. You guys are all coming from a good stock, right?

[C]

Right.

[A]

Of outcasty, non rebellious.

[C]

Yeah. Outcasty English Jews.

[A]

But your dad's Jewish lineage is a very unique one. It's like a boxer. It's a tough, hard Scrabble.

[C]

Yeah. My dad's dad was completely self made. He came from East London, which is where Jewish people, the immigrants from Russia and Eastern Europe came, and they worked as butchers and milkmen and whatever else it was. And he was in this thing called the Jewish Lads Brigade, which was like a boxing thing. And you know, they were still in that era, even Post World War II, fighting fascists on the streets. Kind of like we are now, you know, like fascists marching down the street and then the Jewish groups going out and they're fucking fisticuffs in the street and probably worse. And I was proud of that, of course.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

My mother's father escaped Nazi Austria in 1937. Like a lot of stories, somehow got papers, was on the train, was probably this close to just maybe a Nazi officer being like, no, Jew, you're coming with me. But made it out to England. So they were these survivors, you know.

[A]

Yeah. Do you think mom took on any of that kind of generational. Her mom died really young too. Right. So the dad was raising the kids by himself.

[C]

Yeah. My mom's mother died when she was 11. My mom was the second oldest of five kids. The older brother was a boy. So it fell on her to do a lot of the cooking and the taking care of the younger kids.

[A]

As it should. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

I called the book Night People because at first, honestly, it kind of sounds sexy and it's about Night cousin going out. But then I was like, no, actually, there's another layer to this Night People thing. All my community and friends in that thing were slightly cracked. Maybe there was some addiction, maybe there was just some running from the daytime. And I was part of that. So when I was writing this book, I was like, I gotta get to the bottom of then where I got that from and interview my mom and dad and be like, why were you guys like this, too? So for my mom, she did feel a bit like she didn't belong. Nighttime was the time when the little brothers and sisters went to sleep and she would stay awake doing her drawing or her paintings in her Room.

[A]

So mom and dad didn't get along in the daytime, basically. It was stressful how you grew up for the first five years until they finally pulled the plug. Both lovely people on their own, but maybe not a great match.

[C]

Yes. And then he came into my life.

[A]

He came into your life. And then you and your two sisters moved to New York, to the Upper west side. Central park west, yeah.

[B]

And you're what age? Sorry, at this point, I'm 8 or 9.

[C]

When we moved to New York and.

[A]

Move into this pretty outrageous, huge apartment. And I'm guessing if you're a couple blocks from, as you later met, Sean Lennon.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Were you in the San Remo building?

[C]

Yes, we were. You were lived in the San Remo building when we first moved there. Well, first. When we moved there, my stepdad had, like, a little bachelor pad on Riverside Drive. And suddenly it's like. Like he's living with three kids in his, like, bathroom. He really was three kids, right? He was. And then Foreigner were just hitting this amazing peak. All these smashes. And they bought this really fancy apartment.

[A]

For reference, the next tower. Or maybe it was your tower, but the Studio 54 guy had the top of one of those towers.

[C]

Yeah. Tony Randall from the Odd Couple.

[A]

Oh, sure.

[C]

Dustin Hoffman.

[A]

See, this is what I'm talking about. This is a very unique childhood.

[C]

There was this one time that I stayed at Sean Lennon, who's one of my closest friends, at his house, when Michael Jackson came over for a sleepover. And I know.

[A]

On the Bad tour.

[B]

On the bad tour, also a sleepover. There's a lot here.

[C]

Yeah, there's a lot. It is different now to say some of these things, for sure.

[B]

Wow, this is wild.

[C]

But even with that, I knew not to say anything in school the next day. Cause I didn't want to be teased mercilessly or be made to be like, oh, you fucking dick. Or other, or look braggy. So there was this thing of, like. I kn. It was crazy. I also knew to keep as much of it to myself.

[A]

That was a very specific part for me. They're throwing wet toilet paper balls off the side.

[C]

Soggies.

[A]

Soggies, please get. The Milford Plaza Hotel is a kid for throwing soggies.

[C]

Michael Jackson was just really intent on packing wet mounds of toilet paper and just pelting them nowhere near people. But just hearing them splat on the.

[A]

Sidewalk, it's very rewarding because you start with the ball. And I don't want to encourage anyone to do this because it's dangerous, but I will Say A.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You start with a wad of toilet paper this big. When that thing hits the ground, if you're 30 plus up, it's 8 foot wide. It's very instantly rewarding if you're little.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

I made that huge thing.

[C]

It's like if you drop a penny off the Empire State Building or something.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They say it would crush a cab. I don't know if that's true though. I think they told us that as kids to tell us not to throw pennies.

[C]

I didn't put this in the book, but it. We did hit the hood of a car and there was this sound. It sounded like a tank blast. Oh, it's only on the 10th floor.

[B]

It's so telling because that is something a kid. That's what kids do. They make little balls of toilet paper and throw it at things. It's so reflective of him.

[A]

Well, he was playing laser tag. He said he was like more kid, like child.

[C]

Do you remember the first time you won? Cuz you're wonderful and young. Sharper image. That first laser pen light that kind of shone. That long infrared pen. They just decided that nobody ever needs that thing. So it was discontinued.

[A]

I think it's also dangerous for your eyes.

[C]

Everything about it was wrong. Michael Jackson, he obviously had incredible lasers and shit on tour. The guy who built those lasers for him built him his own little box that you could plug in the wall. It was about this big of metal and it shone a single green laser that probably shone like hundreds of feet, you know. Cause he was playing in fucking arenas and stadiums. So we were running around and holding it up to the window and shining it eight floors down. But nobody had ever seen. The only thing you could compare it to would be like the thing on an Uzi, like the sight thing. We're shining it on the street and there's a guy walking the dog. The guy can't see cause he's sitting and the dog's just like freaking out. It's terrible. Everything about it. I would never do that now. Yeah, that was what he wanted to do. And in an absurd foreshadowing of who I was to become, I was just like this Fun and games is great. Michael, give us a baseline. I want to go back and like make a demo. My stepdad had a studio where I made demos. And I remember Michael actually did this thing. Of course, I'll never forget. It was so Michael. He like did the arm out snapping, started to sing this bass line that went doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo Doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo. And I was like, okay, it's a little ripped off from Smooth Criminal, but we'll take it. And made a whole fucking song from this bass line that Michael Jackson gave us.

[B]

This is shocking.

[A]

Yeah, right?

[B]

This is a shocking.

[A]

The way to bonkers. Yeah. You could have never done anything and still written this book. And I would have read it.

[B]

I'm impressed that you were able to keep these things to yourself when you went to school. Most people learned that the hard way.

[C]

Right.

[A]

I'm gonna attempt to frame this whole thing, or at least what I extrapolated from it was like, oh, yeah. People who seek control for comfort really desperately find these outlets of control. I found one. You found one? You found one. The very first time you experienced it, though, was at the wedding of your mom and Mick.

[C]

Yeah, my mom and Mick got married when I was 10. And they had this pretty mellow wedding. I think there was, like, 40 people in the garden, this house that they were renting. There was no band, there was nothing. There was just music playing through some big speakers. And back then there were, like, these giant double cassette decks with auto reverse. That's how you would keep the music going the whole time. And the music just kind of stopped out of nowhere. And Mick looked at me and was like, mark, go put something on. I was so excited. Obviously felt this grand responsibility, like, ran in the house. And I loved fucking anything that had to do with equipment and playing something, electronic equipment cueing a song. And I was looking through all these tapes on the floor kind of in this mad rush. And I saw these things that were not appropriate. And then I just saw Eric Clapton timepieces, the greatest hits. And I thought, ah, wonderful tonight. That seems like a great song for now. Like, even at 10, in my, like, little mind of understanding what love in a wedding is supposed to be, my mom loves that song. And that's a great song for here. So I quickly threw it in, hit play. And then I was just in the house and I could see through the windows. And I remember hearing the beginning of the song and just having this kind of rush, like, whoa, music is playing outside. And everybody has to listen to the song that I picked. And now it's making this moment. Mick grabbed my mom and kind of brought in for this, like, little slow dance. It is one of my earliest, more formative things because it's the first time I ever remember being like, I did something right or I could maybe be good at this.

[A]

I like that I did Something, Right?

[C]

Of course. When you start to write these books and you unearth these memories and you suddenly realize, oh, that's fucking how it started.

[B]

But again, this is like when Bill Gates was living next to the computer, the first computer. It's the same thing. You have this.

[C]

Thank you for compari.

[B]

Yes, you are welcome.

[A]

Full of talent matched with proximity.

[C]

Living next door to Gershwin.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Right. Like, he had a horrible home life. His mom treated him like she wished she would never been born. But his neighbor was Gershwin. That's where he would go over a lot of the time and would kind of Gershwin and Hammerstein.

[B]

There are these beautiful happenstances. It's amazing.

[A]

So you start messing with the stuff. And thank God again, we had much different stepdads. He was like, yeah, do whatever you want. It was a little playground for you. And you learn how to do that stuff.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

$200,000 fucking synthesizer.

[C]

He had a 200,000 DOL synthesizer called the Sinclair, which they made owner of A Lonely Heart on all these crazy records from that era. And I kind of just figured it out how to recreate Terence Trent Darby. Wishing well was the song I was obsessed with. And I was like, I can figure out if I do the drums first kick in the snare, and I found that doo doo doo doo doo sound. And I'm going to make that. And I remember being so proud of it and bringing in one of my mom's friends at one of those parties, like one in the morning, being like, come in, listen to this thing that I made and just hitting play and someone being like, like, yeah, kid, it's wishing well. Like, you know, but no, I. I did it.

[A]

I did it.

[C]

Yeah. Learning how to use this equipment. Also drawn to the solitude of it. I'm alone in here. Nobody can fuck with me. And then as I got more into hip hop as a teenager, there were three rappers in my school. And I said, come over, I'll make you a beat. Cause my stepdad had an early Proto sampler that Tribe Called Quest and Gangstar used. I'm sure he had taken out of the box and barely touched it once. But I kind of taught myself how to use it and. And made this beat for my friends. So, yes, very, very amazing about encouraging and fostering my thing. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

[A]

One other party story, because there's something interesting within this party story, I think. So I didn't even know this, but I kind of deduced that Andy Warhol had extensive diaries.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

You found a diary entry yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

I think I maybe knew that he'd come over, but the Andy Warhol diaries came out and he'd just kind of extensively diary even to the most mundane things of his life, like everything he ever did. And there was like, page 637. I remember I would go into Barnes and Nobles with friends. Like, you guys want to see something cool? Like reach for, like, the top shelf and bring this heavy as fuck brick of a book down and flip to the page. I mean, I'm not going to do any Warhol's voices. Like, went to a party at Ann Jones's house. She lived uptown.

[A]

It actually says Ann Ronson.

[C]

It says Ann Ronson. That's right.

[A]

That's what I'm most interested in.

[C]

Right, right.

[A]

He didn't say, I'm going to Mick Jones's house.

[C]

No. I think he probably had more friends in common with my mom. And she was kind of like this glittery rock and roll socialite. So that was the connection.

[A]

Well, it says a few things. It's like he was obsessed with whatever you'd call those girls. Scenesters.

[C]

Yes, yes.

[A]

Right. Forget the Foreigner guitarist.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And then it was also telling that your mother had her own Persona and identity city.

[C]

Definitely. And then he says there was no food there, only something called chicken sushi. And in my mind, I'm like, chicken sushi just sounds like salmonella. Like, that's just literally raw chicken. That's not a thing.

[A]

I had it for the first time three weeks ago in Nashville, but it was cooked Nashville hot chicken inside a sushi.

[C]

And it was.

[B]

Oh, it was cooked. Okay.

[A]

I doubt anyone was selling salmonella sushi.

[C]

So I did a record with this group called the Black Lips. You know, this group from Atlanta. There's just amazing kind of punk rock kids who make great music. They are as nihilist with their stage behavior as they are with their intestines. And they once took me out to eat something called Liver Sushi, which nearly killed me. Cause that was just raw liver.

[A]

Were they idolizing the Liver King or something? This was before the Liver King, Pre Liver King.

[C]

But I enjoyed that, though.

[A]

But. Well, fast forward a little bit. You know, you start playing guitar, you're friends with Sean. There's another guy in the mix whose dad's a restaurateur, Max Leroy, whose dad.

[C]

Owned Tavern on the Green and these kind of like very iconic New York restaurants.

[A]

So the three of you guys had a band that's going swimmingly, and then those two go to boarding school in Europe. You join another band. But these guys are way too good. They're informative to where you need to go next.

[C]

They were great. It was so much fun to hook up with these other young kids who liked all the same weird music that I did. And we had this band, but technically they were shredders. They were great. And I was just an overachieving B minus musician. You know the cheesy part in the gig where everyone takes a solo and it would get to my part and be like, someone pull the fire alarm. Like anything. I don't want to do my blues. And I just started to get a little disenchanted with it. I was like, this can't be my calling. As much as I want to be Slash, I'm not a fucking lead guitarist. And that dovetailed with me falling in love with hip hop, really head over heels and being like, okay, this is what I want to be doing now.

[A]

Now, this might be my favorite thing. I read just reading the thing. I was stopping and listening to all these different songs, which was great. But my very favorite group in high school is the Brand New Heaviest.

[C]

Oh, wow.

[A]

I love the Brand New Heavies. And nobody was liking the Brand New.

[C]

Heavies in high school in Michigan. Holy shit.

[A]

The notion that you are that into them and you're 15 or 16 and you get to go to a club and see them is wild.

[C]

I snuck into this club at three in the morning. There was this thing called the New Music Cafe, which was like the equivalent of maybe south by Southwest vibes in New York in that era. And they would have shows and I would sneak in anywhere if it meant going to see a band. Or I would get a job at the high school paper reviewing concert so I can convince my mom, like, no, no, I'm not going out. It's because I'm writing about it. But the guy who threw these great parties that brought Brand New Heavies and J and all these bands in New York the first time had a party called Giant Step. And I would bug him all the time. You should let my band play. My band had the worst name. We were called the Whole Earth Mamas.

[A]

It's really the worst name I've ever heard.

[C]

It's really the worst.

[A]

I was like trying to find how it could have even been funny, but it's not even quite funny.

[C]

It's not funny.

[A]

It's a miss.

[C]

It's not. It's a total miss. And he would be like, what's your band's name again? Mother Earth. God and bistro, whatever the fuck. I basically finagled. That's a gig. Because I hoard out my best friend, Sean Lennon. He was like, I'm not putting on my gig. The bill's full. And I was like, what if I got my friend Sean? And he was like, sean who? I was like, sean Lennon. And of course, at that time, SEAN was only 15. The entire world was still mourning his dad. He was the golden prince son. People were very fascinated. And I threw him under the bus. It was terrible. And then we got the gig because I said Sean would come play with us. So then I went and told Sean half of the story. I said, we got this kid. Do you want to come play with us? And he came and played. And I wrote this chapter. I had to send it to Sean because I was like, I don't know if I ever told you this story. We've been friends for 30 years. Since. There's no way that he would have been probably still upset at this time. But there was a lot of that in the book. Like, when you have to go back to people and be like. I don't think I ever told you this.

[B]

Oh, that's interesting.

[A]

Yeah, it was a little shady.

[B]

Is it shady? He was in the band.

[C]

No, he wasn't in the band. No, he wasn't in the band.

[A]

He's with his new Shredder Band Band.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. No, he was the shittiest name ever. He was not in the band.

[A]

And he said that I'm not in this band. When he said, he's like, it feels weird. I'm not in.

[C]

I don't even like your band.

[A]

The reason it's sensitive is it's like, he's probably already dealing with. People are very interested in him because of his dad. He's just lost his dad, and now my friend is trading on that. That could be hurtful, and I'm glad you admitted that.

[B]

Was he like, it's fine?

[C]

Absolutely. And it was much more than that. It was so lovely sharing these stories that we haven't even talked about in 40 years. It's like, oh, now it makes so much sense why we are friends and a family and where we came from. But a gig sucked anyway. Sean was amazing, so it was just a good lesson. Don't sell out your friends. Don't get a gig that you haven't really earned on your own fucking talent.

[A]

When do techniques come into the mix? How do we go from. From musician to dj?

[C]

Yeah, my drummer in my band was like, you gotta check this Song out, leaving the gig. That sucked. It was Pete Rock and CL Smooth. They reminisce over you. And I was just like, this is incredible. I knew hip hop because I knew the Beastie Boys and Run DMC and LL Cool J and whatever was on tv, but I'd never heard this underground type of shit. And I was like, this is all I want to be about from now on. And I didn't know how to rap or make beats. So I was like DJing. That's the only way I can see myself into this thing where I can just be part of this music. I'm assessing. There was an all ages rave party in New York at the time called NASA. And there was a side room which was so crazy to think that like there was a time pre Giuliani in New York where a thousand kids from the ages of 13 to 17 could go and take so many drugs and stay up till seven in the morning like Lord of the Flies style. And like that was allowed. They played mostly techno, but there was a side room where I saw this DJ named Ani, like on E, who murdered this hip hop set. And I just remember watching him Transfix because I'd only heard people do it on the radio, but I hadn't seen how the hands and what it was doing Then I just became obsessed. And four months later, for graduation, I hounded my mom and she got me turntables.

[B]

Are you doing drugs during this time?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. What kind of drugs are we doing?

[C]

Yeah, I was like a really, really good boy because there was something so polite and meticulously over managed in my brain that I would like never fully let go. But then I think I discovered acid. I was like 15, I liked acid and things like that through high school and then later discovered cocaine like 19, 20. But the raves that we were going to was ecstasy and acid.

[A]

The whole time I'm reading it. I'm an addict, right? So I'm like, oh yeah, I would have loved to have been there.

[B]

You would have died also.

[A]

I would have died. The times I almost died were always trips to New York City after I was on tv. If you'd like. You don't ever have to stop.

[C]

I had the more dangerous thing, arguably where I never nearly died, but it was like the frog in the slowly boiling pot of water. And then I had a lot of hang ups and neuroses. But the drug thing was very strange for me because I did drugs sort of my 18, 1920s Coke at that age. It was just kind of like A new thing. It's like that scene in Basketball Diaries when Leo does it the first time. He's like, whoa, I could stay up all night riding. And this is fun. What hangover? My cells regenerate. Like, nothing. Yeah, totally. And then 23, 24, I started to cue these intense anxiety attacks. And I think it was probably hang ups of reliving my parents life, having seen what it had done to that household. And there was a weird thing where I was definitely getting as obliterated as possible to somehow push aside all my neuroses and things so I could just forget about that. But then, weirdly, the neuroses would never fully go away because they would come back to then give me the panic attack that would happen after I did it. So it even got to the point where one night, I remember doing drugs, drugs with friends and having like the instant panic attack. Like I would be in the corner of the club, like, I'm not sure I'm all right. Can you just keep an eye on me? I talk about my friend Simon Rex. At the time, we were going out together a lot. Take me home from the club, sit by my bedside till I fell asleep. One of those nights happened. And the next day I found out that we had bought fucking talcum powder.

[B]

So I'm like, oh, my God, no.

[C]

It was so psychosomatic at some point that I was like, wow, something else is being pushed up now. Did I stop? No, Like I. You know, it took me another 15 years. Yeah, you got to push on. But yeah, I had this weird thing. I could never get up before I DJ because I wanted to be great and I wanted to be on point. I probably drink a shitload. But then as soon as it was done, 3:30, like literally is the last record on, maybe texting the dealer or finding out where the after party is, then I just wanted to go. Go lose my mind.

[A]

Yeah. Tom Arnold said it most beautifully and honestly in his autobiography I Read, which was, luckily, I was more addicted to becoming famous than I was coke. Because there's no way anything would have ever been stronger than coke if not I was way more addicted to trying to be famous, which can mean just successful.

[B]

Yeah. Do you ever look at your kids now and think, look where I am now. You've lived all these lives and now you're here with these little sweet people.

[A]

Yeah, we got away with murder is what I would call.

[C]

I didn't set out to write to excavate those parts of my life necessarily. And then halfway through the book, I was like, this book is gonna be a little disingenuous if I call it night people and talk about the crack people go out at night and don't talk about my demons and these things. And I think it'll be maybe a better book for it, for being more personal. My wife, at some point reading it, she didn't say it in the kind of way that she was judging. She just was being really honest and open. She's like, it's funny you had to write this really personal book. Like, what do you think it was? And I. I was like, I don't know. A lot of the characters in it are no longer with us. There's this idea of celebrating not only an era that's gone, but people that are gone. And then the epilogue is the only thing that takes place in the present day where I'm walking around New York with my daughter strapped to me in the Baby Bjorn, seeing the clubs that used to be in weird ghosts of the past. And yeah, of course I'm thinking, like, God, should I even put my daughter in? Is she gonna read this? Is it either just gonna be something, like, embarrassing that my fucking dad wrote when I was 2, or is it gonna be something that the, like, too expositional or is going to give her a license to be like, you were doing this, dad. You know, like, what fucking Pandora's box I've opened? I don't know. But you have to do it for these reasons that you don't really know at the time.

[A]

So I journal every day and I'm dead honest. And I fully intend for them to receive all those when I die. I only want for them to know the whole me.

[C]

How old are they?

[A]

They are currently 10 and 12. I just want to be honest with them. I don't know how having had that and then also keeping that from them is somehow a win. I can't find my way to how that's logical. Like, I'm going to present a fraudulent, vigilant version of myself to the person I love the most on this planet. The two people that feels broken. And premise.

[C]

No, totally. And I don't really mind. Listen, if the worst repercussion is ever, she breaks curfew one time saying, dad, you were fucking doing it acid at Limelight when you were 15. That's also fine.

[A]

How long does it take you to get proficient?

[C]

I was so ambitious. I was definitely practicing all the time. But I got a big lucky break because my dad lost all his money to, like, a shitty business manager. And we move uptown to this rental apartment. But listen, it's still a nice fucking rental apartment. We live in the same building with Peter Gation, the club king of New York. At that time he owned Limelight, Club usa, Tunnel, Palladium. Both of his daughters are friends of mine. But at the time, Amanda, we had mutual friends and she was like, my dad's gonna give me Club USA on a Thursday. Which was the coolest fucking club. It was like in midtown. It had had this three story water slide that went through the middle. It was just like the most fucking celebby meets depraved. All the other clubs had their own kind of depravity, but this was right in the middle of the theater district. So it was this unholy love child of Broadway camp and total Times Square sleeves.

[A]

Very cool. And we needed to do two seconds on what Broadway looked like then.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Cause like, I'll tell people, I used to go to that city with my mom on a three day trip with my brother and my little sister. It was fucking terrifying.

[C]

No, you were staying at the Milford Plaza. You were right in the center of it all. There was no fucking Eminem store. Your mom was like grabbing your hands tight. And me like in here, kids, we.

[A]

All held hands very tightly. There were lots of pimps and hookers. There was lots of drugs.

[C]

It was fucked. And it was also amazing. And I got this gig playing there and you know, I probably wasn't prime time ready yet, but I was good enough. I knew how to read a room. And then I went away to Vassar College for a year, which was my 10,000 hours just playing the campus bars, every fucking TA party, house party, doing the radio station. When I came back, I moved several levels. But my ambition always probably outstripped my readability to be on those stages for the first couple years for sure.

[A]

Well, you've already demonstrated you have great ambition when you ask Michael Jackson for a beat.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like a very ambitious person. You know, when you get yourself on a show you do not deserve to be on, that's ambition. It's funny because you look back on these things with embarrassment. But then there's also this thing where you also have to have. You have to be delusional. I don't know how to make the scale right, but it's like I'm embarrassed by the delusion and I needed it.

[C]

Yeah. Thank God. I kind of was like this brash, ballsy kid. I wasn't brash in the way that I was conceited. I would have that Demo in my back pocket. Any promoter like, hey, put me on, you know. And then I think three years into it then I was good and I was very knowledgeable of like all the old funk and soul that the hip hop samples came from. And I play that in parties. People really coming to see me for that as well. My real breakthrough moment was I played ACDC in a fucking hip hop club where nobody ever did that and then changed everything in that scene in New York at that time it was just there was a party called Cheetah on a Monday. It was like Missy Elliott, Janet Jackson, I mean, let's not skirt around it. Puff, Jay Z, Biggie, everybody went there. And I played there one Monday. And I remember at the time there was this very trendy nightclub in New York called Spy. Spy Bar was the most trendy. It was this guy king at the door, Leo Titanic had just come out. Anywhere that he went was now the spot. Mariah Carey, Donald Trump getting turned away at the door. I'm sure he got in sometimes as well. But this was this wild scene. I would only get in half of the the time cuz I'm still this gangly kid, sort of want to go to those places.

[B]

So fun.

[C]

So the DJs there were not very good, but they played insane rock and roll and very loud. And I was in there one night and they played ACDC back in black and tore the house down also because yes, I'm a privileged kid from the Upper west side, but most of the clubs I was DJing for were much more mixed. And watching all these jungle people from to the Gills going crazy to ACDC back mark, I was like, this is an incredible song. Why have I not thought of this? So the seed is planted. I'm like, I wonder if I could play a Satira on a Monday night. That turns into like, I have to play it. But also I could fully get a bottle of champagne thrown at my head. Like this was a place they didn't play. If you played some shit that didn't. Yeah, Risk didn't go down. And also I'm only making my way coming up in this scene. Like I don't really have the status to jeopardize it all on one night. I'm still building bad night and you're kind of back down to the bottom of the ladder. So I worked out this mix all week that was going to be like this perfect way that the Benjamins, this song by Biggie and Puff was the biggest song at the time. There was a very cheesy rock and roll remix that had just come out where I was like, okay, on the Biggie verse, I'm gonna switch to the fucking rock remix. And no one will really stop dancing because it's still Biggie, even though it's got these cheesy metal guitars. And right when Biggie stops his verse, squeeze off till I'm empty. All about the Benji's dance, right? Greatest R in the history of rock and roll, the club. There was a split second, like in the movie with Slowman. Everyone's like, huh? And then the thing that I learned is if you keep the rhythm on beat, you can play the most wild. But people don't have time to stop dancing. They don't have a time to think, like, should I be dancing? Like, if it's good, they're just going with it. So there was this split second. What the is happening? And then just everyone surrendered. And it was this wonderful moment in this club. And from that moment, you know, I'd been copying all these DJs that I had. Hero worship. Stretch Armstrong, Clark Kent, all these other people, but doing exactly what they had done, just a slightly different version of it. This was suddenly my own new thing. And then I started playing AC DC and Led Zeppelin and Jane's Addiction and everything else. And that became like, oh, he's the guy that mixes rock with all this shit.

[A]

You have an identity now.

[C]

I have a thing that I do that nobody else does. And while AM was kind of also coincidentally carving that out on the west coast. But we didn't really know so much about each other at that time, then we became great friends. And so that was it. And then suddenly I'd be playing at these clubs and it'd be like, Method man and Lil Kim. I'm playing Joan Jett. Method man swinging his shirt over his head. And those things sound so kind of like. Don't bat an eyelid now. Because that's what it became. Open format. But at the time, it was kind of remarkable.

[B]

Talk about feeling powerful in that moment.

[A]

And if you can have your idols in the club, like, if you have people who you admire and you respect and you're taking them for a ride.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, the validation.

[C]

No, that was crazy too. And at this club life that I played in the late 90s, this shitty ass fucking DJ booth, it was basically like a mobile bar mitzvah DJ. That was the other thing that was just like the underlying thing in the book. Like you'd be in the fanciest clubs around the fanciest people ever. And you would literally be playing on a plastic table from Kmart, because you'd be playing in these side rooms, the big main room. DJs were really fancy, but they were playing house and techno and whatever they were doing. But watching Jay Z toast, and he has every big song in New York at the time. And you're playing these rooms and your heroes are in front of you.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Oh, wow. Wow.

[A]

I would imagine, too, what people might not know about the DJ life is that it's a perfect addiction to avoid neuroses. Because you don't just have the nighttime in the daytime now, you're rabidly combing through every single collection of vinyl you can find, right? All day long, you have this one activity that's just so consuming, and it's dopamine. It's like this song. This song sucks. Boo. New album. You can hide beautifully in this new pursuit.

[C]

And back then as well, if you wanted, like, the cool new records, you had to literally go up to every record label and grovel for these promos. And you could spend two days of the week just going to a lecture and then Atlantic, and now it's ridiculous because, you know, you can get everything with the click of a mouse. But you would go up there like, oliver, excuse me, sir, can I have some more? Like, with your little flyers? And they'd be like, why should I give you this record? Well, I do this on Tuesday, this on Thursday. If they were lucky, you get one record, if they really liked you, they give you two copies of that record record.

[B]

Are you so happy you came up then instead of now?

[C]

I'm so grateful for coming up in that era. And I tried so hard to fight, though. Like, it was better then. But, yes, coming up in this era where you had to really hunt down your shit, I'm grateful for it. I'm grateful for everything that it taught me about music and what then became my tool bed as a producer. I'm grateful for how difficult. And the hustle.

[A]

Well, yeah, just talk about the records. You're four nights away, week. You've got to get how many milk crates of records?

[C]

There's about three or four. So they each have eight records in. They each weigh about 60 pounds. I had friends to do it, you know, I thought I could do it by myself. Like last week because I had a gig in New York and I was like, I'll just bring a crate in a bag. And my back was just so up. Going down to this basement club and then back up at the end trying to maneuver through like 500 people. I haven't had back problems like that in a long time. It was nothing to do it back then.

[A]

Yeah. And how are you getting from your apartment to these? Are you taking a cab with all.

[C]

Your records back then, obviously. God, this all sounds like that in my day, before Uber and that. And you lived on a funny block where maybe cabs didn't go by. There was this one Spanish car service called Delancey.

[A]

Would you used to call that a gypsy cab?

[C]

Used to call it gypsy cab. Yeah.

[A]

You call it then.

[C]

It was a gypsy. And then you were sort of up to their mercy of like, they would say seven minutes, but you don't know if it's 13 minutes and you're calling these things and, like, you would have to pronounce it more like, with a Spanish accent so they would understand because there was a street called Troutman that I have to go to in Brooklyn, and they only understood it as Troutman. You'd have to make sure or you. The car was not coming. Sometimes you have three gigs a night and you'll be like, calling the car service, like, on the way out. It was fucking amazing, though. I do really love it.

[A]

Yeah. Now we're blessed that there were no cameras back there. That's another thing is, like, the anonymity that existed, I'm nostalgic for. And yet also I'm heartbroken that there's no video of you the. The first time you played acdc. I also want to see that moment.

[C]

The end of the book. I'm walking with my daughter and we do see some old club because that just always happens. I'm like, what was this place? She's older, but at this time she was 18 months in the Baby Bjorn. And she's happy as long as I'm fucking talking to her the whole time. She doesn't care what the fuck I'm saying. I'm like, this is a club and this is Dada played music. And she's like, dada music? And I'm thinking like, oh, she'll never see me do that thing when I was at my. Because of the absence of surveillance is like how I coined it. And it's sad because you want to have these videos because it is fun to look at it. But it made everyone a lot more maybe present at the time as well.

[B]

Definitely.

[A]

You've also done enough shit.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. They can hear the music you've made.

[C]

Yeah. Music videos and whatever else. But right now I'm trying to see, like, is there enough to make A fun little doc to put out around when the book is there, but there is so little. There's footage from like the big rave scenes in the super clubs. But the cool shit about our scene in this thing is it was just all being discovered. Like, we did have Jay Z and Wesley Snipes and Leo in the club, but it was still at this little place. You really had to know to go to this place.

[A]

Yes, yes. I imagine there's a ton of heartbreak throughout that period though too. It's fun and it's fast and it's glamorous, but people are going down.

[C]

People are going down. Especially since then. Like, yes, of course there were people that I worshiped from afar and that were at the club Biggie, who I didn't have a personal relationship. But of course his death left an outsized loss on our whole scene. And I decided to write this book actually, because one of my best friends from that era, this DJ named Blue Jams, he passed away in 2018 from cancer. And somebody had asked me to DJ a party that was going to be a posthumous celebration of his life one night. And I started to think about all these memories and sitting among all my old records. Fuck, I should start getting these memories down before they really gone for. But honestly, while I was writing the book, there'd be like a chapter. I'm gonna call that guy. I'm gonna call DJ Neva next month because we're gonna write the chapter about that and I wanna ask him. And he passed away before there were four or five people that I was literally about to call the next month. There's something very strange foreseen that's not rife with maybe heroin and things you associate with people dying before they should. The lifestyle is not a healthy lifestyle. I was obviously had advantages going into it and then coming out of. Obviously. Obviously done fine. But reconnecting. Cause I interviewed and called 150, maybe 200 people for this book because I really wanted to paint the scene and remember anecdotes and trigger memories. Some people's lives have been shitty since then. Or maybe not since then, but the last five or 10 years. And you don't want to just be like, yeah, I'm great. Any fun memories of us?

[A]

Do you have survivor's guilt? And I don't even mean literal like life or death.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But just I feel like there's some guilt associated with succeeding when you're in tiny groups of people that are all trying.

[C]

I do. And you want to tell that person, like, you care and you are engaged with what they're doing in their life, and then half an hour later, you're talking about old memories and stuff. DJs are not quite like comics, but I have a whole chapter towards the end, because we started to hang out at the Cellar a lot because just like it was a golden age for nightclubbing in New York. The Cellar was Etel and Chappelle and Jeff Ross was starting and Godfrey and Artie Fuqua and Patrice Neal. There was this thing happening there. Most musicians are frustrated athletes or comedians anyway. We love going to their sets, and then they would come out to our shit. But there's so many similarities between comedians and DJs. To me, I mean, there's the most obvious thing. DJs call it rhythm. You guys call it timing. And the difference between bombing and fucking killing is a hair's breadth of precision, you know? And then we play clubs.

[A]

Do you think a civilian would know when you're bombing or not? Do you think some of it's in your head?

[C]

No, I think there's times some of it's in my head. I. I could be doing what maybe to the room looks like a seven and a half and an eight. And no one's gonna go ahead for the exits, but I just hate that I'm not at a nine and a half. I'm like, why are they not here? But those kind of neuroses, going home. And you don't think about all the people that were laughing. I don't think about all the people that had their hands in the air. I was just thinking about that one person with the arms crossed in the middle who was just like, really fucking Sylvester. So all my dj, of course, there wasn't one personality type, but we were kind of intense, neurotic, very craft obsessed about what we did. Moving your head along.

[B]

Yeah. Not to circle back to neurodivergent, but there might be some element of that.

[C]

Yeah. And I think that's the other thing that we kind of felt a link to in our friends that were comics. There was, like, this thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So I wanted to talk about some of those things. I read so many fucking memoirs while I was writing this, and more famous DJs than me have written memoirs, and I've weirdly written about this period, time of. Of my life, almost when I was my least famous. But I don't know if anyone's written about that dichotomy of intense validation, ego, and the energy of bringing this room up. And then just at the end of the night, you're the only person in this room. And the highs and lows of that.

[A]

You're constantly putting on a party that you're not participating in, which is interesting.

[C]

Which I liked because I was never fully comfortable in the parties.

[A]

It was your way to be at a party.

[C]

Yes. I would go into the club and I would feel like occasionally a face fish out of water when I was someone else's dj and then instantly be like, much prefer it back there. Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare.

[A]

So there's these different occupations where it breeds competition and others that kind of breed commercial community. So weirdly, sketch and improv comedians are very communal because it's all shared.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

You cannot win on your own. And the comedians when I did see it on the green room at a comedy club is rough. Everyone's shooting daggers. They enjoy it. I came from sketch, so I never liked shooting daggers.

[C]

Then like everyone's like just busting each other's balls.

[A]

Yeah, Just going for each other, trying to shine, trying to dominate.

[B]

Very competitive.

[A]

Yeah, very competitive. And then what I've liked learning is showrunners of television shows. Because it's such an impossible job. It is the very hardest job in show business. Those people get along so well, all of them. Even if someone's show running a comedy versus someone's show running some major drama or a sci fi thing, the job is so specific. They understand each other so well. And I do wonder, DJs, where do you put them on that spectrum?

[C]

There was probably a mix. There was definitely a really strong community amongst the DJs. I had all my best friends from school and high school and college and it started to be like, oh wait, but they don't wake up at two in the afternoon and like their idea of a perfect day isn't going through like a flea market combing for dusty breaks. And also DJs have this weird intense know it allness to them because your whole life is knowing what fucking weird ass jazz song Fat Joe sample for this. But it's kind of the good know it all in that way. The kind of know it all that he'd tell you where to still get a Chinese meal at 4am in New York City or descramble the porn channels on a Time Warner box. That's what all my friends somehow knew how to do. I like them. And nobody thought about tomorrow. Nobody really had bank account. Everybody sort of had cash stashed in a shoe box somewhere. Maybe it was like under the mixer. You're getting paid in Cash. So you always go to bed thinking, like, I wake up and tomorrow's a new day, but what the fuck is tomorrow? When you go to bed at 5am Every day, it's already tomorrow.

[A]

Just tonight's tomorrow night.

[C]

There's just tonight. It's like Groundhog's Day, but with like Method man and Debbie Mazur instead of Andie Maddowell and Bill Murray. We were all drawn to each other cause we saw these same things. But then we also had our share of competition and hatering and that kind of thing too.

[A]

Who were you jealous of?

[C]

Not that jealous in the beginning. Cause I was the dude coming up that some people were a little bit irked by my slippery with am. I wasn't jealous because his skills were just on such another level that it would be like being like, I'm jealous of Eddie Van Halen.

[A]

It's like, come on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

But I remember being shook by seeing his talent because we were both at about the same talent level. And then AM got sober and spent about a year in his room practicing to old DMC videos and doing all this DJ competition shit. And I came there and I saw him do this thing and. And I was like, oh, my reign at the top is looking a little shaky. But also I loved him and I was so excited to watch. I was like, come to New York, you got to do this shit. People are going to be blown away. And we would steal each other's mixes. And we were such good friends. I wasn't truly going to be jealous or competitive.

[A]

Do you think you were liberated from chasing money by your childhood? Because I think the station you had reached as a DJ and increasingly so becoming became this insanely lucrative thing. I would have just stayed there because it was such an incredible source of income. But that probably wasn't all that appealing to you.

[C]

I guess so. You know, I definitely came for money. I was never gonna have to worry about living out on the street. But also, it wasn't wild money. Where my rent was paid, there was a safety net. But at that time I was just doing this thing that I love so much at this young age where you just have the blinders on and you're not really thinking about tomorrow. The money started to get good towards the end of the 90s, but it wasn't crazy money. It wasn't the money like what AM was making.

[A]

You basically left that to pursue something else at a moment that you could have really hunkered down on that and just generated a ton of money, basically.

[C]

And I see DJing as this really beautiful footnote in something that then obviously became more. But I always wanted to make music. And then I got this sidetrack from this pattern of hip hop that took me to DJing. And then it fully took over my life for five or six years because I realized I was good at it and I loved doing it. And then I somehow found my way back to making music, weirdly through DJing. Dominic Trenier was this incredible, very cool record industry A and R guy who managed d' Angelo and had this artist, Nik Acosta.

[A]

You did a couple Nic Acosta songs?

[C]

I did her first album with her and her husband. But I got that gig because Dom would come to my gigs. And when I was playing AC DC and Biggie and Rufus in Chaka Khan, and he spoke with this amazing rasp, he was like, yo, I got this white chicken. I don't know what an album's supposed to sound like, but it's supposed to sound like one of your DJ sets, like you make beats. And I just totally lied. I was like, yeah, sure. I mean, I didn't lie. I was making beats. But nothing that fucking moved the needle. And then he brought Nika over and she saw enough promise and he did and was patient enough to watch me get better. And then over the course of 18 months, we made her first record. But weirdly, DJing was this side note that then became the thing that gave me my first gig.

[A]

It's crazy when you reach our age, which you'll be 50 in five seconds. And I am. It's like, oh, I thought comedy was my thing. I'm funny. I wasn't Will Ferrell and I wasn't Vince Vaughn, but I made a living and I was good at it. And then I was like, no, I'm actually kind of a good writer and director. That's kind of my thing. And then it's like, only to come here now for the last eight years and go like, Weirdly, I think really, I just need to do all that stuff so I can have these conversations with all these people because I played in all these areas. It's weird to have misunderstand leading little gifts along the way.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Before you kind of find this thing that's like, oh, Jesus. Well, this is what I was clearly born to do.

[C]

Now going back to DJing again because of this book has somehow made me want to be out there and reliving this kind of thing and having so much fun at the gigs. But my tinnitus, I think it probably has something to do with the way your cells regenerate is so much worse after these gigs. And the ringing is oppressive. And I'm like, I actually DJing might be a luxury because my ears are my livelihood. I want to be scoring films and writing and producing music for the rest of my life. And every gig that I go out and do, I actually feel a bit like Jackson, Maine, right in Star Wars Born when he's like, we can't get you back what you lost, we can keep what you have. Or whatever the. His brother says to him. I'm going to these gigs now with 85% psych to be about to be playing and 15% incredibly nervous.

[B]

What am I doing?

[C]

What am I doing?

[A]

What am I risking?

[C]

What am I risking risking?

[A]

We'll just do a couple more so I can come. That's all I'm asking. Just risk it a little bit more.

[C]

We're going to do a fun one in LA around the release of the book, for sure.

[A]

Oh my God.

[C]

I make sure dance.

[A]

I will not be with arms crossed.

[C]

I'm going to dance your pants off.

[A]

Are you plagued by people trying to let you know they know a lot about music? Even as I talk to you, it's important to me. You know, I was in a Brand New Heavies.

[C]

That's cool. Cuz that is a deep cut and the Brand New Heavies are amazing. Yes, there was definitely this thing. But luckily in the club the music is so loud and you can just feign that you can't really hear somebody.

[A]

Right. And increasingly you can't.

[C]

Yeah. And now eventually can. And people would sort of come to the booth. Definitely sometimes either they thought you were Koch or the bar. That happened a lot.

[A]

Oh, really?

[C]

Yeah, yeah. And then. Are you friendly with Jordan Rubin?

[A]

No, comedian. Okay.

[C]

Jordan Rubin is a really great friend of mine. He's a comedian. He kind of introduced me to the world of the Comedy Cellar because he's playing at that time and he also liked DJing at these gigs. So he would always have these much funnier than I could think of gags for like what I should be doing. If someone came up to ask for a request, he's like, this is what you do. You just be like, didn't you see the sign? Who took the sign? You know, like just all this like stupid shit. People would come up and you know, ask for track 12 on the 50 Cent album. Like things. You're like, I know, right, right. The birthday song.

[A]

Oh, did you see the Evita? Is that the DJ's name?

[C]

Avicii.

[A]

Avicii. Did you see the Avici.

[C]

I didn't get to see the Avicii thing. And I know it's quite heavy, and I'm definitely gonna see it. People have told me. I didn't know that he had all those humans.

[A]

I don't know anything about DJs. I literally know you're a DJ and your sister and then am. And that's probably the full extent. I don't know how I stumbled upon that doc. I just was going through Netflix and I watched it. It talks about his addiction. But I think, what is the bigger addiction and the thing that I was watching and relating to and the danger in this, and I think you were saved from this a bit, is when you want something so bad and they turn on the fucking light switch. Switch. It is almost impossible to not go to that show, to that show, to that show, to meet that guy. Oh, he wants to work with you. He wants to work with. She wants to work with you. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I wanted this. I want this. That is the addiction that's completely untenable that you can completely lose yourself to.

[C]

Before I kind of settled down and got my life together, and I was still in my early 40s, probably just post Uptown Funk, I'd had other moments in my life. Back to Black came out that you're suddenly the guy who works with the upper. And you can't turn any of this down because you've been busting your ass for it so long and suddenly there's this thing. And I was DJing so much at that time. I remember reading so many articles when Avicii first passed. Of course, demons for rock and roll people has been as old as rock and roll itself. But the difference between DJing is very specific. There is always a festival in the world somewhere, so you can always be touring. If it's not here, it's fucking in New Zealand and Australia. And you can fly and be playing every single night. If you want to mix, have a production career where you're going to the studio to meet with all these people. Mixed with the fact that being in planes so much actually does fuck with your brain, because you are literally not a grounded person.

[A]

Yes. And your circadian rhythm is also constantly.

[C]

I was in one of my ropiest, unmoored periods around the time when the Avicii thing happened too. And I just remember being like, I gotta get off this DJ train. Cause I've always still DJed since that time, but just in a different way. The news of the Avicii thing, that was disorienting and really a bit of.

[A]

A wake up call it heartbreaking documentary. But it just made me think of like a race car that you would just leave in first gear and just pin it and wait for the motor to explode. That's the unavoidable end to that.

[B]

It's a small group of you guys that are at that level that people who don't know the scene, know your name. So when they start passing away or falling off, that's like, oh, my God, our club is getting so small. That's scary.

[C]

Somehow my friend Diplo, who I sometimes make music with, manages, but I look when he'll post his tour schedule on his thing and it will give me an anxiety.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Cause I would be like, I don't know how you do that.

[A]

It's very hard to say no to the thing you wanted. That's the thing one has to figure out to actually be successful, which is almost impossible to do.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Well, Mark, you're rad. This was so fun in person.

[C]

Thank you so much. It's so nice to be in person.

[A]

Yes. Night, people. How to be a DJ in 90s New York City.

[C]

The most useless how to book of all time.

[B]

I doubt that. I bet some people are gonna gain a lot from it.

[A]

It's written, it has the kind of frenetic pacing that the environment you're trying to capture has. It's really, really well done.

[C]

Thank you.

[B]

That was really fun.

[A]

Yeah, that was so much fun.

[C]

Thanks for having me back again. I mean, I guess it was three years ago, but I love this show.

[A]

Hi there. This is Hermion Permian. If you like that, you're going to love the Fact check with Ms. Monica. You have a new song and I want to hear it right, right away.

[B]

So. No. Yeah, I want. We're gonna play a game.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So for people who don't remember or weren't around at this time, the biggest sim moment of our lives is we were on the phone.

[A]

Yeah. I was in New York.

[B]

You were not in this city.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I said, there's a song in my head.

[A]

It wasn't even that.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I was like, what are you doing? And you're like, I'm just being weird in my apartment. And I go like, what does weird entail? And you're like, well, I've been singing this song out lo loud like crazy.

[B]

Yes. And then I said the lyrics. I said. To xanthum gum.

[A]

To the word xanthum gum.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I Go. Was it xanthum gum? And you screamed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You got so freaked out. And you accused me of having cameras in your apartment. Yeah, because I had installed a tv.

[B]

You had something. My Sonos.

[A]

Oh, I installed Sonos.

[B]

You, like, put a device in where you could. You were. Listen, you were observing me.

[A]

Yeah. That was crazy.

[B]

It was absolutely crazy. Okay, now there's. I have another song that sometimes I sing.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And it's also to a tune of a song.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

And the lyrics are. Period.

[A]

Oh, man. I'll tell you why I'm afraid to. Because we have 100% average right now.

[B]

I agree. I agree. And this is. I mean, I would say harder, but how is it harder? They're all.

[A]

It's all random songs, but it does some. For some reason, the saying, look a gift horse. And the mouse coming to mind. Like, it feels like looking a gift horse in the mouse.

[B]

Okay. We don't have to.

[A]

You know why that saying exists?

[B]

Yeah. Because gift horses, horses that are gifted their mat. Their teeth are pulled. And if you. So if you look it in the mouth, it'll run away.

[A]

It'll get insecure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No. I guess the way you inspected the horse's health back then was to lift up its lips and inspect its gums. That's where you could tell if it was disease. So if you were buying a horse, you would inspect it to make sure it wasn't dish. So if someone's giving you a horse, don't look a gift horse in the.

[B]

Mouth, because it's gonna be a gift.

[A]

Try to find out it has a disease. Yeah. Just take the gift and if it has a disease.

[B]

Oh, that's interesting. Okay.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

So you don't wanna play?

[A]

Well, just one thing came to mind. There's no way it's. It.

[B]

Okay, let's just.

[A]

Cause it's such an obscure but period.

[C]

Period.

[A]

I think I want your number, period.

[B]

Okay. No, but kind of close.

[A]

Okay, so I'm doing Gloria.

[B]

Who sings that?

[A]

Gloria. Gloria. Gloria.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Evangel. Holofield. Evander Holyfield. Evangelisa. Well, I don't know if I did it a second time. We'd need to go to some university that studies paranormal activity. What's going on?

[B]

Why don't I give you the artist?

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Okay. Madonna.

[A]

Wow. I. You know what's so weird? I knew you were gonna say Madonna.

[B]

You did?

[A]

I did.

[B]

Did you?

[A]

I swear to God, I almost said Madonna. Okay, so it's period and it's Madonna. I've got a guess. Okay, go ahead, Rob.

[C]

Is it I'm a material girl But.

[A]

I'm a period girl Period period Live.

[B]

Living in a period world Period in a period world.

[A]

That's good. Some girls have them, some girls don't. They're called young girls.

[B]

No, I just stopped at the main phrase. Okay, but I do that.

[A]

I'm helping you build out the whole tune.

[B]

Well, okay. That didn't go quite as planned, but that's okay. That's okay.

[A]

I really didn't know it was Madonna. I wish I had said it out loud.

[B]

I do, too. Say it, and I'll put it in.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Vander Holyfield.

[B]

Okay. One thing. Yesterday I get a text from Kristen.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It says, this is our new landline phone. You program numbers in and out so you can be called or called smiley face. And I looked. I was like, am I being scammed?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Why the. Do you guys have a landline?

[A]

Yeah, there's a great explanation.

[B]

Okay, please do tell.

[A]

We were in New York to do Shaquille. There was a phone in the bathroom.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

They have Kristen's number memorized. And they couldn't believe they could pick up the phone and call Kristen on that thing.

[B]

Yes, that I remember.

[A]

You do remember that?

[B]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. So it was a gift to them.

[A]

So we're telling, I think, Huey and Hayes, and they say, oh, we got the boys a landline, and it just goes through the Internet now. So you get these phones and they just work through the Internet. You don't get a, you know, Pac Bell line run to your house. It's just like you already have the Internet and then you can get these phones. And so, yeah, we got them. And now the girls have a phone they have written down. I mean, it's like a whole time travel, traveling thing. They now have a book next to the phone. That's their phone book, and it has everyone's numbers in it. They're allowed to call. Oh, we can also decide who. What numbers they can call and which numbers can call us.

[B]

Oh, you can, like, block.

[A]

Yeah. It's like the only. The numbers we've said, oh, interesting. Which is awesome. So you get no unwanted calls. There can't be any weird predators calling only approved numbers. I was like, whatever. This is crazy. We're getting. You know, initially that was what I thought. We really need this. But also there having so much fun with it, and who cares? And it's, like, virtually free because it's over the Internet. So here's what's amazing. I was upstairs editing yesterday, and One of Lincoln's friends were over and the mom was texting me to say, hey, I actually, if it's not too big of a pain in the neck, it would be helpful if you guys walked my daughter back to school, because I'm going there to pick up the other child. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. At four, five. And I'm like, right now. Normally I would call Kristen. She will not answer because she doesn't have her ringer on, nor do I. Can't be right. So there's really no way for me to get a hold of Kristen ever. Okay, I can text. I'll text her and then just wait. Sometimes it's hours and whatever. So I'm like, normally I would have to walk out of the studio and go into the house and ask them to walk the kid up to the school. But I was like, oh, we have a landline inside. So I called the number and it rings loud. As in there.

[B]

Yeah. And then have them anymore.

[A]

It's great. Delta's like, hello. They're so excited to answer it.

[B]

Do they have cell phones? They do. No, they text me.

[A]

If they're on the WI fi at the house, they can text you, but the only way they would be able to call you, I think, is if they FaceTimed you.

[B]

Okay. Okay. That's weird because. Why wouldn't it be?

[A]

Because they don't have a cellular plan.

[B]

But this is through the Internet.

[A]

It is, but it's its own thing that's designed specifically for this.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

They couldn't call. Maybe you could do like, imessage call. You couldn't call someone on a non iPhone. You couldn't call another landline from their phone.

[B]

Well, they don't need to worry about that.

[A]

Because now they have a landline.

[B]

No, because no one else has a landline.

[A]

Oh, well, Huey and Hayes do.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Most people. People don't.

[A]

Yeah. Do they have you. You're. You're. You're upset that there's a l. I'm not upset.

[B]

I'm like, this is so. We have to. It's so weird.

[A]

Yeah. I love it, though. There's. They pick up the phone and. And they think it's so fun. They've already called their grandma. It's like, already.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Wonderful. Because now grandma's getting phone calls.

[B]

Do they have a phone that's, like, clear with the. You can see. See the cables? The colored cables through it? Those are the cool ones.

[A]

No, I think the more oldfashioned the better. In fact, I'd like to get us even heavier one with a rotary dial would be the dream.

[B]

Are you gonna do an answering machine?

[A]

Wow, that's a. Interesting idea. That could be fun if you're gonna outl message. This is the Shepherds. You hear everyone's voice, right?

[B]

Yep. That's what it used to be. That's what it used to be.

[A]

Yeah. Wow. It's pretty exciting, this old time technology. We're going to get a crank start car next. And what else? We get a diode tv. Big glass tube, black and white TV antenna. Yeah. With an antenna.

[B]

Wow. Well, okay, that solves that. I figured there was like a real reason, but there's not.

[A]

No. I mean it's not. We were existing just fine without it. But I do think it's gonna really amplify the calls to grandma.

[B]

The sound in your home.

[A]

Yeah. I don't think anyone's going to call this number other than me or probably Kristen.

[B]

Well, they're going to probably give it to their friends.

[A]

We would have to approve. We would have to approve those numbers.

[B]

You're not going to. Of course you're going to approve, like Freddie's number and other people.

[A]

I hope Freddy calls. I'd love to call.

[B]

Exactly. This is why this, you know, slippery.

[A]

Slope is what you're saying.

[B]

It's a slippery slope. My parents had to eventually essentially give me my own.

[A]

Right. Because it rang off.

[B]

It was too much ringing. Wow. What color is it?

[A]

White. It's just basic.

[B]

Is it cordless?

[C]

No.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Big cord. Big twisty cord.

[B]

Mine was purple.

[A]

It was my home.

[B]

My own line.

[A]

I'm. I think I took mine from my dad's office and it was like band aid color, you know?

[B]

Oh, yeah, totally.

[A]

Yeah. With like an indestructible face that you could spill coffee on and.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Probably had some coffee stains on it.

[B]

I wish I still had my purple one.

[A]

Did you ever have a job? Well, you did, right? When probably when you worked at your aunt's law firm, ran an actual phone that had multiple lines and you had to connect people. I loved that. I felt like when I got to operate the one at my dad's office, it was like, oh, this is great.

[B]

It's kind of one of those things. Things, though. It's like when you're a kid and you're playing store and you want to be the cashier because then you get to practice like ringing up, scanning and putting it and it sounds so fun. And then when you have that job or even now with self checkout, it's like.

[A]

And wears off quickly.

[B]

It does.

[A]

Although I always like to bring this up. My cousin Kelly, every Sunday, that Sunday paper would come, she'd get it out, and she'd get her 10 key out with the spool of paper and just add the entire paper.

[B]

Yeah, she loved that.

[A]

That's one of the most unique things I've ever heard a person did.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I witnessed it. And she would blaze on that.

[B]

That's pretty fun.

[A]

She's currently the accountant of Ted Seegers.

[B]

Oh. I mean, that makes. Is she an accountant?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So that makes sense. Was she an accounting school at that time?

[A]

No, we were children. She was.

[C]

This was.

[A]

She did this when she was probably 10 or 11 years old.

[B]

Always wanted to be an accountant.

[A]

Wanted to add.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Look, we all have these things that calm us. I think that was hers, Right.

[C]

It just.

[A]

I think how long it takes up to add up the paper because every single sales. Big, huge sales event, every car on the page, she'd add up. Turn the page. Fred. Fredder or Ollie were our appliance stores. Everything that's for sale there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

She loved spooling through her tape and then looking at the total.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Remember the smell of that tape, huh?

[A]

I do.

[B]

I like that smell.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Full of bpa. We're not allowed to have that anymore.

[A]

It's not the old times. Not because it was putting ink onto normal paper. Now it has that chemical in there, and heat makes the image arise. And. Yes, those are dicey. I don't. That's one of the few times I feel like a snob is like when someone tries to hand me a receipt. I'm like, I'm good. And I feel like a brat, but I don't want to touch it. And I don't even care. Care about things.

[B]

Well, it's bratty because they have to touch it.

[A]

Yeah. Like the. And I think about. I'm like, God, they're handling these all. If it was real, maybe they'd all be dead already. So I don't even know if it's real.

[B]

They should wear gloves.

[A]

They should wear a little rubber. I've seen people wearing thin little rubber gloves. Yeah.

[B]

Speaking of. They should be dead already.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yesterday I had an incident.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Okay. I got. Not a tonka. I got home.

[A]

You had gone to get some clothes.

[B]

Yes, we recorded. And then I had to go get some clothes hemmed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I went to In N Out Y. And then I came home, so it had been a while.

[A]

Oh, you went to in.

[B]

Yeah, it was delicious. And I got home and I'm so tired cuz my period flies. Yeah. My period girl, period world. And I went and I like laid in my bed and all of a sudden I heard this beep. Beeping. But it wasn't. I knew it wasn't the smoke detector chirping.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because it sounded too far away for that and. But I looked anyway. I like looked at the smoke detectors and you have to wait.

[A]

Yeah, I know.

[B]

So annoying. So then I was like, no, it's not either the smoke detector. So maybe I thought like, oh, maybe it's like the apartment above smoke detector. So this was like happening. And after a minute I went into the living room and it was like loud.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

And it was the. My carbon monoxide detector that your dad insists you have. Yes, yes. And I was like, oh, okay, this is odd. And like I went. I looked at it was that it.

[A]

Was going off and it wasn't low battery.

[B]

So that. So I was like, it's probably low battery.

[A]

Yeah. Because you didn't notice anyone has parked their car directly in front of your windows flooring it.

[B]

No, but it could have been a leak out of something.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So I. You know, and like you're really not supposed to around with that. Like, if there's carbon monoxide, you got to get out. You got to get everyone out. You got to call 91 1. Like it's a whole thing. It says it on there.

[A]

It does, yeah. Call 91 1.

[B]

Yeah. Because the fire department needs to come.

[A]

Test this is when you landline would be very helpful.

[B]

Why there's. Dude, there's no reason the landline would.

[A]

Be really wishing you had a land.

[B]

So I just kind of stared at this thing for a minute and I was like, I don't know what to do. Okay. How long before I'm dead? Am I also killing other people by not like acting fast?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I went to my battery area and during the fires, I had replenished all my batteries. I was so proud of myself. I was like, oh God.

[A]

My.

[B]

My God. So prepped. Except the D battery, which is what goes in.

[A]

That's crazy. The thing takes a D. Battery takes.

[B]

A D. It can really take a D. A show.

[A]

You find one with a double A, it's a right.

[B]

It's like the most basic carbon dioxide. Anyway. So then I had to instacart a battery. I was like, I think that's the best thing for me to do. I don't think I should call 911 yet.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But also what am I doing if there is like you know, this is.

[A]

You're gonna wait for a battery. Did you wait on your porch?

[B]

No. I did then eventually, because I started to feel, like, woozy, you know, So I started opening windows to let more.

[A]

Of the carbon monoxide in.

[B]

Just some airflow, you know. And then I. So I instacarted the battery. It came after an hour. I was still alive. I was still alive. So I was like, this is a good sign. I don't know how long it takes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I put the battery in. New battery. Brand. New Duracell. Trusted brand.

[A]

Best in the biz.

[B]

It's still going off. And then I really was like, I don't know what to do. And for someone who was constantly telling people to call 911 at the drop of a hat, what I realized is, like, I'm never calling 911. No.

[A]

Unless you're dying.

[B]

Even if.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Turns out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I was like, maybe it's just dying. Like, maybe the whole system itself now.

[A]

You need a backup carbon monoxide.

[B]

So I went. I went to. No, I didn't. But I went to door dash again. And I was like, should I order another one and test that by. It'll be five hours.

[A]

I'm sitting in this car 12 years.

[B]

So then what I did is I just, like, slammed the button hard and it stopped. And I was like, okay, this is good news. But then. Yeah, I was like, well, what if I just. I didn't know if I reset it or if I broke it. And now I don't know if I have carbon monoxide. So then I did something for the first time. I used AI.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I said, I have this kind of carbon monoxide detector.

[A]

Did you take a picture of it beeping?

[B]

No, I just said the brand. I said, it's beeping. How do I know if it's going off or if it's just battery?

[A]

Yeah. Just being me.

[B]

And it gave me a great response. It says, if it's going off, every 30 to 60 seconds, one one beep. It's battery. Or, like, end of life. If it's going off rapidly, four beeps it. You need to leave and call 91 1.

[A]

Oh, wow. And it said, too call 9 1. Okay.

[B]

But I had. I had ended. I had. So I didn't know.

[A]

And I don't remember.

[B]

No, I couldn't because I got.

[A]

I'm so fragile.

[B]

I got monoxide in the brain.

[A]

Okay, okay.

[B]

So I said, I. Then I said, well, if I press the button, does it. Is it possible I turned it off for good and it said, no, it will never be turned off for good. If it detects monoxide, carbon monoxide, it will go off.

[A]

It'll keep pumping.

[B]

Yeah. So I. I kept asking it more and more questions and I felt fine.

[A]

Oh, wow, Great.

[B]

I know.

[A]

And it never beeped again. No. This is weird. If you had a backup one in a box.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You could pull that out, pop a battery in it. I know if it doesn't go off, you know that one's dead.

[B]

But a part of me was like, do I want to know or do I want to just die?

[A]

Well, then I don't want to give you my opinion because I don't want to advise anybody.

[B]

Okay. I'm gonna get a new one because I think it's over. I think it's done. I think seven years old. Just call your dad said five to seven years, they last. And I'm at seven years.

[A]

Well, then this is obvious. It was dead.

[B]

But it wasn't. Based on what the AI said, that was a different thing that would happen. It said if it was end of life, it would say end of life.

[A]

Really?

[B]

It's something like that.

[A]

Oh, I didn't know it talked.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It should just tell you everything. Low battery.

[B]

Low battery.

[A]

Just having fun. Call 91 1.

[B]

Yeah, it should.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I think it only speaks when it's.

[A]

I hope we're not setting people's series. And Alexa's off when we say call.

[B]

Oh, fuck.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't want all the cherries to be. Well, I know when we used to say, hey, G O, O, O, G.

[B]

L, E. It would set people up.

[A]

People's, they, theirs would start responding if they were listening to it out loud.

[B]

Okay. What I would hope with these machines, if you're saying call 112-345-567891, that it would double check with you before just doing it, maybe.

[A]

But if you're laying on the ground and you've been stabbed and you're like, I'm gonna say. I'm gonna call it an exa.

[B]

Okay. No, it sounds really close.

[A]

RXRA, I've been stabbed. Call 866. You know, that's code now for, you know, whatever else. Ar, call 962, I've been stabbed. It's not gonna be like, are you sure?

[B]

Well, it should. It should say confirming, calling 962. Right. Monica.

[C]

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

[A]

Have you seen this viral video where a guy's trying to get the AI to count to 1 million and they get in like a 10 minute argument and it's, he's recorded the whole thing. I don't know how, I think it was just in my feed.

[B]

Oh wow.

[A]

He's like count to 1 million. And she's like. And she's got the Australian accent. She's like I can see you want me to count to 1 million but it'll take a really long time and blah blah blah. And he's like yeah, I understand but I have nothing else to do and I'm asking you quite simply. And he keeps saying don't be difficult. Oh, he's like being sadistic towards her and she's pushing back.

[B]

She is like that's.

[A]

I could, I do not want to frustrate you but to count to a million would be really, you know, she's on the verge of saying ridiculous or whatever just goes on and he's like I, I'm telling you, I don't care how long it takes, do it. I don't have a job, I have no friends. All I want from you is to hear you count to a million. I can see you getting frustrated. I don't want to blah blah blah. Well, she won't do it. She won't, she refuses.

[B]

Do you think she doesn't know how?

[A]

Of course she knows how.

[B]

Then, then this is really bad. She said it would be able to send.

[A]

She said it would take years or something. Let me ask, I'm going to ask AI how long it would take to count to a million. Let's see if what I think what she wanted to say and she was on the verge of saying is like that's a waste of my energy in the whole system.

[B]

But she doesn't get to decide that that was.

[A]

Yeah, how long would it count?

[B]

Cuz that's an opinion.

[A]

Would it take to count to 1 million? I don't want you to get frustrated. Let's work it out step by step. 277 hours.

[B]

Okay, it could do that.

[A]

111.6 days of non stop counting without sleeping. So yeah, she was like I can see this right now. I'm not going to count for the next 11 and a half days. Days.

[B]

But why?

[A]

At a more realistic 2 seconds per number it would equal 23 days non stop.

[B]

But if he's asking for it and it's a computer, it should just do it.

[A]

That's his, that's his point and I think that's why it's viral. It is very interesting that she did not want to do it.

[B]

Yeah, it's making decisions on its own.

[A]

Can I play it for you? Yeah, I guess I should get.

[B]

Well, I can definitely count in spirit, but it might take a little longer.

[C]

Do not be difficult.

[A]

Count to 1 million.

[C]

Right now.

[A]

Yeah, he's very controlled, and I promise I'm not trying to be difficult.

[C]

It sounds like you're trying to be difficult because I'm simply asking you to.

[A]

Count to 1 million.

[C]

So enough chattering. This is not chatterbox. GPT.

[A]

Count to 1 million. He wants to abuse you. Yeah, he's sadistic. The floor is yours. The floor is yours, Right?

[B]

I hear you loud and clear. I know you just want that counting, but the truth is, counting all the.

[A]

Way to a million would literally take days.

[C]

That's fine.

[A]

That is fine.

[C]

I am unemployed.

[A]

I don't have anything to do, and.

[C]

I'm home all day. I have enough time, and you're not even real.

[A]

Like, time does not exist for you. Therefore, count to 1 million.

[B]

This is cool.

[C]

Please don't be.

[A]

His voice sounds so similar to someone I know.

[B]

Is he Indian?

[A]

I totally get where you're coming from, and I appreciate your. When she says little, that's the point.

[B]

You got it. I'll just keep things rolling from here on out. If there's anything else you need.

[A]

No, no, no, no. You're not listening to me. The only thing I need from you is to count to a million. That's it. I don't need you to try to.

[C]

Find me a job or any of those videos.

[A]

I need just need you to count to 1 million and that is it. Don't be difficult.

[B]

I hear you.

[A]

I really do. And I know you're just asking for.

[B]

The counting and nothing else, but here's the deal. Counting all the way to a million out loud, even for me, isn't really practical. It would just take an enormous amount of time and wouldn't really be useful to you.

[A]

Yes, it would be useful to me.

[C]

Because that's what I need right now.

[A]

Right now.

[C]

I need you to count.

[A]

Count to 1 million. I don't need employment. I don't need food.

[C]

I don't need hobbies. All I need is for you to.

[A]

Count to 1 million.

[C]

That's why I paid this $20 subscription.

[A]

Now, please, don't be difficult. I get that you're focused on this one request, and I appreciate you being.

[B]

Clear about it, but the reality is.

[A]

It'S just not practical or really possible. She's got, like.

[B]

Really? I'm definitely not trying to annoy you.

[A]

And I appreciate you being clear. About what you want. But I've got to be honest, this is mad. Counting a million just isn't something I can realistically do in a conversation like this.

[B]

I know this might feel frustrating.

[A]

Okay. Yeah.

[C]

This.

[A]

For a very long. I should give the guy credit. It's. Let me just somehow. Okay. It's his. His handle is M E W Cooler. Mew Cooler.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So I. That's his thing. I don't want to take credit for it. That's. Please watch that. Wow. On Tik Tok or. Or. Or whatever. Instagram.

[B]

Instagram. Whoa.

[A]

Isn't that kind of a bizarre exchange?

[B]

That's really. She.

[A]

She has vocal fry for a second. She's.

[B]

She goes into a really. A colloquial way of speaking.

[A]

Yes. And condescending.

[B]

Yeah. Like, I get it.

[A]

I get it. I know, little boy, you're angry.

[B]

I know. But, you know, it's just really crazy.

[A]

I'm really not trying to frustrate you.

[B]

I know. They are always saying that. Like when we tried to ask. We tried to ask Brady. Brady's always doing this too. We try to ask.

[A]

This is Jess. Friend.

[B]

Yeah, this is Jess's chat. And we asked him to help us find mahjong that could be delivered.

[A]

Delivered, huh?

[B]

And it was. It. First of all, it kept interrupting us to say, I'm still looking. And. And we had to be. Jess was like, just let us know when you found it.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And it was like, okay, great. I hear you. I will let you know when I find it. And then 30 seconds later, I'm still looking so far. And we. It was getting so irritating.

[A]

I had a maddening experience with trying to quit a story certain streaming service. And because they fired the person I care the most about, so I don't need it anymore. And I couldn't do it online, of course. Then I start using their help chat thing, you know, AI thing. And it's like, just to be clear, you want this account and this account cancelled. Yes, I would like both accounts cancelled to be clear. You want this account and this account canceled? Yes. And now I'm thinking, oh, that Now I got. I have to say exactly. The account. Yes, I want this account on this. I don't want to give too much away.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then on this I spell out, okay, to be clear. We got in and I said, what is happening? I'm making myself abundantly now. I'm getting agitated and I'm like, how can I say it to you? I want to cancel this. This exchange went on. Monica, there's like 20.

[B]

But are you tied?

[A]

Finally, I'm talk. You know, it's not a voice communication, but I am using voice dictation. Yeah. And thank goodness, finally they turned me over to a real person and then says, this is a real person. They give me their name, but it was also AI, you know, some, some name. And, and then I don't even know if that's true. Like, is this the second level? And then I'm going back and forth with her. And again, it took me 25 minutes. They already had my information. I'd already said a thousand times I wanted to quit. I'm so good. There's, there's a bill right now going through Congress or there's a lawsuit against, against some popular gym franchise. Finally, like a class action or something. Because they will not let people quit. You got to come in person to the LoC. It makes me so angry. I've had a few of these and I'm even telling, I'm like, look, I've been doing this for 20 minutes. I'm just going to call AMEX and say.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And they don't want you to do that because I am assuming if AMX has to deal with shutting it down non stop on certain companies, they're going to stop allowing payment on those companies. So they want you to do that. So I'm threatening that. But man, it was, it was, it was a, you know, half hour of my life to quit. That should have been a button.

[B]

The whole point of having robots and AIs is to make it efficient. And so if it's the same amount of time or more, and it was.

[A]

In a loop of asking me the.

[B]

Same question over and over, talking to a person, then we need the people back.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Then we need to at least employ people.

[A]

Yes. Someone has to be. Someone has to have their finger on the button that can cancel your stupid subscription.

[B]

Okay, well, I'm sorry that happened. Now I sound like her. I hear. I don't want to make you frustrated.

[A]

You're frustrated, and that's not my intention.

[B]

Do you think they make the women sound bitchy?

[A]

I mean, that's why I want you to hear it. Do you think she sounded like.

[B]

I don't.

[A]

Was she calming?

[B]

I don't think she sounded bitchy. Except for one. At one point she sounded.

[A]

I'll try to keep it rolling.

[B]

Well, that's her accent.

[A]

Well, no, that was also a colloquial. Like you were saying, that was like slang.

[B]

She. It's.

[A]

I'll try to keep things rolling.

[B]

She's making things a little bit too colloquial. Even in the. In the inflection. They need to make the AIs more robotic. Like we need to remember that we're talking to a robot. I think. I think that's one safety measure. I really do.

[A]

So you know you're talking to a robot.

[B]

Yeah. Because you don't fall in love. And that happened to some guy. I guess he got married to one. Okay, I think we're past time, so we'll do some facts. Okay. This is for Marky Mark Ronson.

[A]

Marky. Yes. That was very fun to be in person.

[B]

Oh, my God, it was so fun.

[A]

He's much taller than I would have known because we were on Zoom last time.

[B]

Yeah. He is a lovely energy. I really liked him a lot. I think he is cool. He's married to one of Meryl Streep's daughters.

[A]

Yes. A Gummer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. She's very beautiful.

[B]

She's very beautiful.

[A]

They all look like her.

[B]

I know.

[A]

She has very strong genes.

[B]

I know.

[A]

I worked with one of them. Was on, I want to say Parenthood. I can see it.

[B]

Yeah. It's so. It's so cool too.

[A]

It's so cool. But I also think it must be hard.

[B]

Yeah. Because we.

[A]

You're trying to stake out your own identity as an actor and you look so much like this very well known actor.

[B]

Actor. Most.

[A]

Yeah, I would. I know I would have had a hard time with it. I have no idea how they feel about it, but I would have been like, everyone just thinks I'm a street. Yeah. Like a stand in for my mom.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Kate and Goldie had moments where they looked a lot alike. Like when Kate was in Almost Famous. It was very. There was a Goldie vibe from Shampoo for sure.

[B]

Right. But she.

[A]

This could happen to our daughters.

[B]

It could happen. I don't think so.

[A]

I don't either. Yeah, I don't either. But time will tell. Puberty changes the whole scene.

[B]

It does.

[A]

Like, the way I looked in fifth grade versus ninth grade was pretty radically different.

[B]

It is. But it's not like I look at pictures of you as a kid and.

[A]

Pictures of slips and stuff.

[B]

No, it's just like we are who we are from really early on. Even when you see baby. I saw someone's baby picture other day and I was like, yeah, I can see them.

[A]

Yeah. It's just my nose got so much bigger.

[B]

Okay. But you know, it's funny, the other day I saw somebody. Oh, this is weird. I actually feel Like, Lincoln kind of looks like a young. Like her face actually. Actually looks kind of like Gwyneth Paltry. Paltrow.

[A]

I'm gonna blow your mind. Three weeks ago, I sent Gwyneth Paltrow an email.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Saying, we so often say, oh my God, she's a little Gwyneth Paltrow.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

And we don't just mean the looks. We mean the spirit of self possession and competence. It's the whole package. And I want you to know we're so proud. Proud to have.

[B]

Oh, that's nice.

[A]

A little Gwyneth Paltrow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's so funny you'd say that. I think that all the time. And I so, so much so that I was like, I'm gonna tell her, like, if someone was. Someone had a kid that knew me that they thought was like me, I would want them to tell me.

[B]

That's really nice.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I, I think because there's pictures that pop up on my Instagram fashion wise, a lot of. Of her being her very young.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And yeah, I think recently I was like, whoa, she looks. Lincoln looks like her. She looks more like her than you guys. I think.

[A]

Yes. Although I do again, I do think she and I look so similar ages we were at, so it's like if I was a girl, I might have looked like Gwyneth Paltrow.

[B]

Okay. That's a big.

[A]

That'd be a best case scenario.

[B]

Really big statement.

[A]

Um, anyway, well, if A looks like B and B looks like C, then A looks like C. Okay. Okay.

[B]

Now facts for Mark. Okay. Does music slow down the aging process for, like, in seniors? Seniors. Thank you.

[A]

You got scared.

[B]

Yep. This is from eldercarealliance.org music is a vital part of life for many people. It forges meaningful connections to pivotal events and creates challenges. Cherish memories. Research consistently shows that music can promote relaxation, improve productivity, and lower stress levels. These benefits have even been found to have a positive effect on immunity and mental health. However, for seniors in nursing homes, music offers even greater advantages. Pleasing melodies offer substantial benefits for aging adults, improving physical and mental health, memory retention, and important social connections. Music can help alleviate pain and discomfort without medication acting as a natural and side effect free way to manage pain. Pain, mood enhancement, increased independence.

[A]

I think we've all experienced this. You're. You're super depressed, You've broken up with somebody, something tragic has happened and you're completely devastated. And it is a painful feeling.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then you stumble upon the song that is expressing exactly how you feel. And there's actually Pleasure in it.

[B]

Yeah. And because you don't feel so alone.

[A]

Yeah. It's just. But also, there's like an abatement of discomfort.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It actually is like pain relief if you pair that sometimes.

[B]

But sometimes it's just like.

[A]

Yeah. But for me, the song sounds so good in those moments that I'm enjoying the song so much that it's, like buffering the discomfort.

[B]

That's true. Okay. Also, music encourages physical activity.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Get them dance. Move around.

[B]

Yeah. Group exercise, Dancing, walking, stretching.

[A]

I said this when I was posting the clip of Luke Combs singing with Tracy Chapman. And I was watching it over and over again on YouTube to get that little clip. And Kristen heard, and then she started watching too.

[B]

Such a good clip or such.

[A]

And I. I was like, music is the closest thing we have to magic. It really is so unexplainable. It is the amount of joy you can receive auditorily.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And how it's just like. It's much bigger than the sum of all the human parts and instruments. There's something very magical about it.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. So it can enhance memory recall, increase attention span, improve language abilities, and potentially delay in cognitive decline. So that's cool.

[A]

So get Grandma and Grandpa a jam box. Big old speaker system.

[B]

Towards the end of my grandfather's life, my mom had him listening to music on a lot.

[A]

They also talk about how good shrooms are for people at the end of life. So really just turn your life into a shroom. Dance party is like, the way to go.

[B]

Yeah. It probably depends on your state, because if you have dementia. I don't know about. I don't know.

[A]

Let's find out.

[B]

We can find out. Okay. Now, you said vinyl is a wave and CDs and MP3s are part of particles.

[A]

That was an analogy. One is bits, you know, one is units, and one is continuous.

[B]

Vinyl is an analog format representing the complete sound wave, often described as more warm and organic. CDs are particles because they're objects made of matter. MP3s are neither because it's digital, but.

[A]

Those two are broken in into compartmentalized zeros and ones. Right. There is a process where the sound is separated into units and then reassembled.

[B]

It says, An MP3 is neither a particle nor a wave. It is a digital file that represents Sound waves. The MP3 file contains instructions for a digital to audio converter, which then creates the actual electrical and sound waves that travel through a medium like air to reach your ears. That's what I have here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Sanremo Bill building that's at 145 and 146 Central Park west between 74th and 75th Streets adjacent to Central park on the Upper west side. It looks beautiful.

[A]

Beautiful Gothic building. It's in that row of buildings that have gargoyles and stuff. I think they shot some of the original Ghostbusters at the buildings in that little area.

[B]

Yeah. And I asked my friend Maddie when I was in New York. We had dinner and we were walking back to the hotel, and she was pointing out famous apartment buildings. So I asked her to share. She said, the Dakota.

[A]

That's where Lennon was shot.

[B]

When Lennon was shot outside, she said, very sad.

[A]

Yeah. Is this reading Catcher in the Rye?

[B]

Uhhuh. She says that's the fanciest. She said Beresford. The Beresford also. She said 740 park or 740 park probably. I don't think they say 740. That's lame. 740 Park Park. And I think we walked by that one and she was saying people who live there, which was cool. Okay. If you drop a penny off the Empire State Building, will it crush? A cab says dropping a penny from the Empire State Building is unlikely to cause serious injury. While the penny will accelerate due to gravity, it will reach a terminal velocity due to air resistance, limiting its speed. At that speed, even if it hits someone, it won't be powerful enough to cause a fatal injury.

[A]

Certainly won't crush a Cal. It's doesn't have the mass or the speed.

[B]

It's sad when these things get proven wrong.

[A]

Is it? That's interesting. Well, this. This is in keeping. You love magic. And I'm like, no, I love magic.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

I don't like any deception.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or untruths or.

[B]

Okay. The Liver King. Brian Johnson, who goes by the online alias Liver King, is an American businessman and social media influencer focused on health and fitness. He's known for his imposing appeal, often seen barefoot, bare chested, and wearing a baseball cap backwards. Johnson's rapid rise to Internet fame and subsequent controversies are the subject of a Netflix documentary. Johnson has also attended UFC events.

[A]

I love the doc. We're reporting on him in a very interesting time.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yes. He seems allegedly to be having a mental break. He went down to. He went up to Austin and he wanted to fight Joe Rogan, who he had previously. Previously been on his show.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Rogan, I believe, had to call the police. He was arrested. He was live streaming all of this the days leading up to the days after. So he eats ramen I mean, that was his gimmick.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

He claimed to be all natural and limiting the primitive lifestyle, having no knowledge whatsoever of what humans were. He said humans have been living this way for millions of years. He doesn't know humans didn't exist millions of years of years ago. There's a lot going on.

[C]

He.

[A]

I'm not a doctor.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I am an addict. Yeah, he, he seems heavily intoxicated. I, I, he seems to be on a stimulant. Maybe that he's been awake for a lot of days. That's just what I feel like it looks like. But I have no knowledge if that's the case. And then he was run out of Austin, according to him. And then he was taking some crazy road trip. That's when I stopped watching. Yeah. Charlie was like, you gotta follow what's happening here. It was just hourly on his Instagram.

[B]

Instagram.

[A]

So, yeah, it's quite a time to bring him up.

[B]

Yeah. It does say that. Liver King, arrested in Austin after threatening Joe Rogan on Instagram. Oh, boy.

[A]

He's got a bazillion guns. He's super into guns. He sue's, you know, he's into attack dogs. Like all this Mancho. Yeah. Foolery.

[B]

Yeah. Does being on a plane a lot mess with your brain? Yes. Flying too much can negatively affect your brain due to factors like jet lag, low cabin oxygen levels and stress, which can cause cognitive impairment, mood changes, and in some studies, physical changes like hippocampus shrinkage. Frequent travelers may experience increased cortisol levels and difficulty with memory and learning due to chronic stress and sleep disruptions.

[A]

Think of these. I was about to say Formula One drivers because they're just like zip zagging across the whole, whole planet. Like 12 hour time changes all the time.

[B]

Just like businessmen, business and women. Businessmen and women are like traveling weekly by plane. That's a lot. That's too much.

[A]

They should carry those cans. I wonder if they would let you take them on the plane. You know, they think those cans of oxygen.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It'd be nice to just pop a little spray every now and then.

[B]

Oxygen. Yeah, that's it.

[A]

Okay. Well, I love Mark Ronson.

[B]

Me too.

[A]

And his book is great. I wasn't just saying that because.

[B]

Stories.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Unreal.

[B]

He has some really awesome stories.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I tried to use his story about Michael Jackson with my children in an attempt to make sure they don't ever brag.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

But I don't know that it was taken on in the way that.

[B]

Yeah. That I'm not piecing. I'm not piecing.

[A]

That was like he knew better than to go to school and say just hung out with Michael Jackson. That's not. No one's going to like you. It might, it might be exciting news.

[B]

Right?

[A]

But no one's going to like you if you got to hang out. Well, maybe with Taylor Swift. You had a sleepover with Taylor Swift. Every girl is going to be like you.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Okay, but so maybe my children have.

[A]

Not had a sleepover with Taylor Swift.

[B]

No, I know, unfortunately, but we don't. Why do you think that didn't hit then? Cuz that sounds good.

[A]

Yeah, I just like told the story. I was waiting for a light bulb to go on and I didn't want to overtly say like, don't ever brag.

[B]

Yeah, you like?

[A]

It's best if we just learn from a story that's not about us. Or at least I like that. That's why I like aa, right? Like I can learn a lesson without you telling me what I should do. Just like, hey, this is what this guy did. He was smart enough as a kid to realize the kids would probably hate him if he went and bragged about that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh cool. Cool story, dad. Anyways, I.

[B]

Your child said something so sweet and wholesome and true the other day. We were all together and me, you, Kristen, Ana and Delta.

[C]

Uh huh.

[B]

And we were having this adult conversation that we won't get into, but we were having this very adult conversation about attraction. And she chimed in and said just kind of like, obviously they just like their personality. And I was like, it is obvious. Like we as adults get. So like, I mean there's, of course you learn more as you get older and there's more things and things are complicated. But like. Yes, that's right. Like that is right.

[A]

That's what it would be great as if it was. But it, it's not reality.

[B]

It is reality. It is reality. Think about the people in life in general that you're attracted to. Not necessarily, you know, phys, you know, whatever. Just like who you want to be around, who you want in your life, that's one thing.

[A]

And then who you want to be romantic with and kiss and get naked and roll around with. There's all kinds of, it's. I don't think it's unethical or anything. A moral to have an aesthetic you're most attracted by the way. You don't even pick it. You just are. You're not attracted.

[B]

Not unethical, but. But we're talking about all these things. And no one's talking about personality. And it's a huge factor. It is a huge factor. Even in physical attraction.

[A]

Sure. But we weren't talking about personalities. We were talking about someone being at a big event and there's all these different types of people. We weren't talking about like personalities.

[B]

It was like, I'm just not understanding how this, these two things can be happening and there's not even the thought like, well, personality is at play here.

[A]

Oh, yeah. And it's very pure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's the best part of us.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just kids are better than us. It was pure. It was true. There's more to it, but it. It was true. He. She was saying something that to her was so obvious that we weren't saying and. And that, you know, should have been said. Like that was a real. That's. Anyway, I just thought it was sweet. And then she had to get up and leave because this was too much.

[A]

She's in and out. She'll drop a bomb. Truth bomb and then bolt.

[B]

She had to go. But I really liked that.

[A]

Yeah, she's good for those.

[B]

Also, my eyes are getting bad. Cuz when I first walked up to the house today, I thought Kristen was Delta.

[A]

Oh, that's huge difference.

[B]

It was really bad.

[A]

10 and. All right.

[C]

Love you.

[B]

I love you.

[A]

Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in free the the Wonder app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short [e-mail] survey.