Stephen Dubner Returns Again

Summary

Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard

"Stephen Dubner Returns Again" – October 22, 2025

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Episode Overview

This lively, free-ranging episode welcomes back Stephen J. Dubner (author, journalist, and host of Freakonomics Radio) for his third appearance on Armchair Expert. Dax, Monica, and Stephen explore everything from cognitive framing, historical legacies, and podcasting journeys to the nuances of disgust, the peculiarities of American polarization, and even the etiquette of couples massages. Throughout, they challenge binary thinking and contemplate what it means to be a decent human in divisive times—with characteristic humor and vulnerability.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Framing Experience & The Power of Mindset

• Nashville Summers & Cognitive Reframing
  • Dax reflects on how spending the summer in the hot, humid Tennessee climate was more enjoyable because he chose to frame it as a positive experience, much like vacationing in the Caribbean.
  • Dubner agrees, noting the challenge and value of intentionally choosing one’s mindset, but admits: "It's hard, though...It depends on the intensity of the inputs, how much you can affect the output." (05:51)

2. History Lessons, Memory, & Context

• Civil War Money & Historical Knowledge Gaps
  • Playful banter about "Confederate money" leads into a serious reflection as Dubner admits he’s learning much more about the Civil War as an adult:
    "I'm embarrassed to say this. I've never really known all that much about the US Civil War, which I feel kind of silly about as an American who likes history well enough and...medium smart person." (07:24)
  • They riff on biography authors and misunderstandings between authors Ron Chernow and David McCullough.

3. Podcasting, TV, and Feeling Like a Novice (Again)

• Dubner's Next Venture: TV
  • Stephen shares nerves starting a new TV show (“Better in Person”) despite decades of storytelling experience: "Every time you think about doing a new thing...what should feel cumulative...It's not cumulative. It's like scratch pad. You rip it off, this blank page again. This should be served with a moist towelette." (11:31)

4. ChatGPT & Interview Preparation

• Dax shares he used AI for the first time to get ideas for Dubner’s interview; Dubner and Monica confess to doing similar prep.
  • Dubner: "I think AI is an amazing...I think what you did is normal or will be normal." (16:28)
• They reflect on the ethics of treating AI harshly, landing on the idea that venting at machines is preferable to misdirected anger at humans. (19:08)

5. Disgust, Human Uniqueness & Behavioral Science

• On Disgust and Societal Boundaries
  • “The power of disgust is its own...what causes genocides...It's the number one thing that's leveraged and weaponized.” – Dax (12:21)
  • Dubner: “When it becomes disgust in other people—wow. And we're seeing a not low level of global disgust in other people, I would say.” (12:30)
• Human Peculiarities
  • Dax: “It's very, very weird that we don't [eat poop],” sparking a comedic but thoughtful riff on social norms and evolutionary changes. (13:00)

6. Lessons from Freakonomics (20th Anniversary Reflections)

• Dubner reveals the new edition of Freakonomics contains only a new foreword—no revised chapters.
• Honesty in Writing:
  • He shares a story about correcting a major error in the original book, when one subject exaggerated their civil rights activism:
    “If you get had or if you make a mistake, you have to admit. So anyway, that was a long way of saying that I don't think there's anything in Freakonomics that we would do really differently for the people we were then.” (26:16)
• Changing Contexts:
  • Dax and Dubner discuss how context, time, and personal growth shift how authors feel about their own seminal works, referencing Malcolm Gladwell's critical reappraisal of his own "Tipping Point" ("Revenge of Tipping Point"). (23:12)

7. Binary Thinking, Polarization & The Illusion of Explanatory Depth

• Rejecting False Dichotomies
  • Dax laments: "You've presented me with the two shittiest fucking options in the world," regarding forced political binaries. (38:34)
  • Dubner: “There are expectations that if you don't think or say or feel a certain thing about...anything, then you're gonna be either outgrouped or thought less of. And I think that's just never the way that humans have thrived.” (32:41)
• Tribalism as a Modern Malady
  • Monica objects, explaining the real need for collective protest at times, and the emboldening effect of mass movements (41:56)
  • Key insight: Fewer original thoughts exist than people believe; most "stances" are tribal repetition.

8. Contempt & Marriage Metaphors for Society

• Contempt as Society’s Greatest Threat
  • Dubner references Arthur Brooks' work, noting the destructive power of contempt and the need for more empathy:
    “Contempt. I want to get rid of the contempt...the most dangerous part about the worst parts of our attention economy, I think, is that they incentivize people to be unkind.” (45:15, 48:56)
  • Dax: “Ultimately, we're in a marriage, we're not breaking up, divorce isn't an option. So can we afford to have contempt for each other? I don't think we can.” (46:43)

9. Can We Depoliticize Our Lives?

• Dax proposes a one-year moratorium on political talk—not voting or action, just performative broadcasting:
  “I just am curious what that would look like.” (50:23)
• Monica raises the challenge that "everything" has acquired a political valence (cars, beer, diet, shopping):
  “If you're saying all of that is political, then how can we not talk about politics?” (53:45)

10. Judgment, Empathy & Moving Beyond Knee-Jerk Reactions

• Dubner:
  • "One thing that's hard to not do...but that comes naturally, at least to me...is the impulse to judge. I think [it's] a very, very smart, healthy evolutionary trait... But often when we make a consequential decision...we make it fast. So that's really bad... At the very least...you start by empathize...that, for me, at least, changes the calculus." (58:08)
• Dax:
  • "When a different opinion than yours signals a character assessment about the owner of the opinion, we've got a big problem." (60:05)

11. Optimism, Fatigue, and Generational Attitudes

• Dubner:
  • Notes both optimism in younger generations and society’s collective exhaustion as possible catalysts for change:
    “I think younger people than all of us are already where we're hoping that we get to...I think we're the bad generation.” (55:28)

12. AI, Technology, and the Evolution of Culture

• Debating AI's Role & Its Limits
  • Dubner argues recent AI is an extension of centuries-old tools and isn’t "intelligent" in a human sense, but cumulative technology should “free us up to do” new things. (62:57)

13. Curiosities and Social Nuances: From Massage Jealousy to Salad Bar Preferences

• Dax explores the social frames that govern what's acceptable in intimacy (e.g., couples’ massages with strangers vs. coworkers).
  • Monica on boundaries: "Nudity is best done anonymously... It's context—again, that's why I think...you just need more information to know whether jealousy should happen or not." (98:32, 106:19)
• They also have a classic Armchair fact check about Shoney’s, donut economics, and arbitrary social rules.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Cognitive Framing and Experience:
  “I always have the option to frame it in a way that I'll enjoy it. And it's literally up to me.” — Dax (05:36)

• On Contempt:
  “The most dangerous part about the worst parts of our attention economy...is that they incentivize people to be unkind.” — Dubner (48:56)

• On AI & Humanity:
  “Ideas are one of the single best things about us humans. And that the AIs will have facsimiles of it, but not the way we do.” — Dubner (73:11)

• On Social Polarization:
  "When a different opinion...signals a character assessment about the owner...we've got a big problem.” — Dax (60:05)

• On Fatigue & Hope:
  “I'm just praying that we're approaching the fatigue right where it's like we all throw our hands up and be like, okay, I'm just too exhausted to do this exactly anymore.” — Dax (61:31)

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Important Timestamps for Segments

| Segment | Topic | Timestamp | |---------|-------|-----------| | 05:21 | Framing Nashville summer, mindset | 05:21 – 06:43 | | 07:24 | Civil War money/history gaps | 07:24 – 08:45 | | 11:31 | Dubner on feeling like a novice, TV vs. podcasting | 11:31 – 13:00 | | 16:11 | AI in interview prep, ethics of AI use | 16:11 – 20:43 | | 12:21 | Disgust as social emotion/tool | 12:21 – 13:57 | | 23:20 | New Freakonomics 20th anniversary, correcting mistakes | 23:20 – 26:36 | | 38:32 | False dichotomies, Israel/Palestine as example | 38:32 – 41:06 | | 45:15 | Contempt, Arthur Brooks, marriage metaphor for society | 45:15 – 48:56 | | 50:23 | Dax’s “politics moratorium” thought experiment | 50:23 – 54:29 | | 55:17 | Generational turnover, “bad generation” insight | 55:17 – 56:12 | | 58:08 | Judgment vs. empathy, slowing down reactions | 58:08 – 60:05 | | 62:57 | What is AI, cumulative technology | 62:57 – 64:11 | | 73:11 | Sustaining curiosity, podcasting longevity | 73:11 – 74:35 | | 94:10 – 101:56 | Massage/coworker analogy, social boundaries explored | 94:10 – 101:56 | | 110:46 | Fact check deep dive and closing banter | 110:46 – end |

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Final Thoughts

This episode illustrates why Dubner is a cherished recurring guest: he brings humility, insight, and a playful seriousness to both big-picture societal questions and the quirks of daily human life. Whether debating the ethics of AI, recounting journalistic errors, or musing on why men don't care about couples massages, Dax, Monica, and Dubner return to the question: “How should we think and relate to one another in a noisy, divided, and rapidly-evolving world?” The answer, perhaps, is with more humor, honesty, and a willingness to reframe on purpose.

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Recommended for:
Fans of behavioral science, thoughtful conversations about polarization, human nature, and anyone seeking a reminder that optimism and curiosity can spark connection—even in messy times.

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For more, listen to Armchair Expert or check out Freakonomics Radio's 20th Anniversary Edition, out Nov 11, 2025.

Transcript

[Dax Shepard]

Wondry plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now. Join Wondry plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert Experts on Expert. I'm Dan Dubner and I'm joined by Steven Padman. Hello returning guest. One of our favorite guests. Maybe there's number three for him.

[Monica Padman]

We love him.

[Dax Shepard]

God, we love him. We don't need any game plan.

[Monica Padman]

No, he's just fun to talk to and he's so interesting and has a lot of good thoughts.

[Dax Shepard]

I love him. He's like a polymath. He's cute and playful.

[Monica Padman]

Stephen Dubner I ran into him minutes after.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, he was on his way there to meet somebody.

[Monica Padman]

Yes, I ran into him and he invited me to hang out with him, but I. I had to pass up the opportunity.

[Dax Shepard]

Why?

[Monica Padman]

Because I was working. I went there to work and I had to complete it.

[Dax Shepard]

Did you see his guest?

[Monica Padman]

Yes, he's a producer on Freakonomics.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay. Stephen Dubner is the host of Freakonomics Radio and co author of the Freakonomics books which have won many awards and sold millions of copies around the world. 2025 is the 20th anniversary of the Freakonomics book and the 15th anniversary of Freakonomics Radio. Check out Freakonomics. The new edition drops November 11th. And his new television show out early 2026, which he is non committal about the title, but currently it's titled Better in Person. So keep your eyes peeled for both of those Steven Dubner projects. Please enjoy one of our faves. Stephen Dubner. This episode of Armchair Expert is presented by Apple Pay. You know, holiday shopping can be a hassle, but Apple Pay makes it so much easier. Whether you're shopping online or in store, look for the Apple Pay button or contactless symbol at checkout. No more digging for your wallet or filling out long online checkout forms. It works at millions of places, including stores, websites and apps. This means you can spend less time at checkout and more time finding the perfect gifts. Pay the Apple way. Terms apply. We are supported by Function Health. You know what's fascinating? Your body is constantly sending signals about your health, but most of us only see a tiny fraction of that data. That's why I chose Function. So the only health platform that gives you access to over a hundred biomarkers, from hormones to heart health markers, all tracked in one secure place.

[Monica Padman]

I love this because I agree that normal regs, blood work and stuff, it doesn't get it all. And sometimes you find hidden things in these hormone checks.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, I love seeing my health data mapped out over time. Helps me understand exactly what's happening in my body. It's no wonder top health leaders like Dr. Mark Hyman and Andrew Huberman are behind Function Health. This platform truly empowers you to own your own health journey. Learn more and join. Using our Link, the first 1000 people get a hundred dollar credit toward their membership. Visit www.functionhealth.com DAX or use code DAX100@ Sign up to own your health. We are supported by BetterHelp. You know, it's wild. October 10th is World Mental Health Day. And it got me thinking about all the incredible therapists out there making a real difference. But Better Help therapists alone have helped over 5 million people worldwide. That's a lot of lives changed, one conversation at a time.

[Monica Padman]

I love my therapist so much. I saw her twice last week after my personal tragedy. She was so helpful in helping me process everything.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, finding the right therapist can feel overwhelming. But Better Help makes it simple. They've spent 12 plus years perfecting their match system, connecting people with licensed professionals from their network of over 30,000 therapists. And with an average session rating of 4.9 out of 5 based on over 1.7 million client reviews, they're clearly doing something right. This World Mental Health Day, we're celebrating the therapists who have helped millions of people take a step forward. If you're ready to find the right therapist for you, BetterHelp can help you start that journey. Armchairs get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com Dax that's BetterHelp. H-E-L-P.com Dax he's an object expert.

[Stephen Dubner]

He's an object exper. Nice to see you.

[Monica Padman]

We're so happy to have you.

[Stephen Dubner]

I'm sorry I'm late.

[Monica Padman]

How are you?

[Stephen Dubner]

I'm good.

[Monica Padman]

Do you want or not want? You can have them, of course. But I just.

[Dax Shepard]

That's one of his endorsement deals. He actually has to wear that.

[Stephen Dubner]

It does feel warm with him on.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, just.

[Stephen Dubner]

I'm good.

[Dax Shepard]

That would be so un. Steven Dumer. But what if he showed up and he had like all this.

[Monica Padman]

I just have to.

[Dax Shepard]

No, I got to take off my uncle sunglasses. It's not as bright in here as I was fearing.

[Stephen Dubner]

This is good. Really?

[Dax Shepard]

Thank you.

[Stephen Dubner]

So wait, is this really Rob?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Rob designed the whole thing and then.

[Dax Shepard]

He built a replica of this in Nashville for me.

[Stephen Dubner]

You lived there part of the time, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

We built the house there. And we spent the whole summer there.

[Stephen Dubner]

Congratulations. You spend the summer in Nashville?

[Dax Shepard]

We spent the entire summer in Nashville. It's on the lake.

[Stephen Dubner]

Oh, okay.

[Dax Shepard]

So boating.

[Stephen Dubner]

You could have an antiperspirant endorsement then. It is really hot. It's hot. You grew up South Carolina or something?

[Monica Padman]

Georgia.

[Stephen Dubner]

Georgia.

[Monica Padman]

Hot, hot, hot.

[Dax Shepard]

It was a great exercise in framing the whole summer. You know, when you go to Hawaii or if you go to Hawaii. Have you ever been?

[Stephen Dubner]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, but have you been down to the Caribbean? Yes, yes, of course. It's objectively hot, but you go, yeah, the Caribbean is hot. I love it. And you just love it because you decided you love it.

[Stephen Dubner]

Right. It's a good attitude.

[Dax Shepard]

It was a great experience of like, oh, yeah. I always have the option to frame it in a way that I'll enjoy it. And it's literally up to me.

[Stephen Dubner]

It's a very good point. I love that idea. I tried to do that more. It's hard, though.

[Dax Shepard]

It is.

[Monica Padman]

It's hard with mosquitoes. That's impossible.

[Stephen Dubner]

It depends on the intensity of the inputs, how much you can affect the output. And I've been trying to do more and more what you're saying, not like, just take a problem and turn it into an opportunity. There are a lot of business school sayings like that that are sometimes true and I think sometimes inspiring for some people some of the time. But I think we all have the ability to control our frame of mind much more than we do. Simple as that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Can I give me one more? So we live about 40 minutes outside of Nashville. And so once or twice a week we would drive into Nashville and go hit a great restaurant and we'd all get in the car as a family and we drive there and we listen to music. And about midway there on our, like, six time deal, and I said to Kristen, I said, you know what's insane? We would never drive 45 minutes to LA to get something to eat. If we had to, we'd be complaining the entire way. But I'm like, this is really fun. Family time.

[Stephen Dubner]

It's like Confederate money you're playing with. It's a different currency you have. 45 minutes is just what we're doing.

[Monica Padman]

Also vacation.

[Stephen Dubner]

That's what I mean by Confederate money.

[Dax Shepard]

I didn't mean like the Mason Dixon.

[Stephen Dubner]

Well, when we were. When I was little. When I was little, you would still come across Confederate money.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. That had been printed during the Civil War, apparently. Okay.

[Stephen Dubner]

And it was worthless. But people tried to say, like, I'll give you five Confederate dollars for like 25 cents. And some people would take it.

[Dax Shepard]

We could do 25 minutes on the Civil War because that actually got us to a version of, you know, we came off of the gold and silver standard in the North. Our modern way of printing money backed by nothing really started during the Civil War.

[Stephen Dubner]

Is that right? I know nothing about this.

[Dax Shepard]

That's when it started.

[Stephen Dubner]

Teach me more.

[Dax Shepard]

No, that was that.

[Stephen Dubner]

I'm embarrassed to say this. I've never really known all that much about the US Civil War, which I feel kind of silly about as an American who likes history well enough and, you know, medium smart person. But lately I've been reading about it in kind of sideways ways, and it just felt like one of those things. You have to know everything about it and you learn it in school. And then Ken Burns said this, which was a lot to absorb. And I didn't absorb it all. I absorbed the emotional highlights. Maybe now I'm starting to kind of see it for. Wow, what it was.

[Dax Shepard]

So my route in was the Grant. Biography by Chernow. Insanely new, right?

[Stephen Dubner]

This is in the last couple of months, right?

[Dax Shepard]

No, no, his new one is Mark Twain.

[Stephen Dubner]

When was the Grant before Hamilton?

[Dax Shepard]

You're conflating authors.

[Monica Padman]

I have no Hamilton.

[Stephen Dubner]

Oh, Cherno.

[Dax Shepard]

Ron Cherno.

[Stephen Dubner]

I thought Ron Chernow was Hamilton.

[Dax Shepard]

No, I think Hamilton.

[Stephen Dubner]

Where is complexity? AI? We need to know who's the other one you like. Didn't you also write a book out of Bank? David McCullough.

[Dax Shepard]

McCullough did Adams.

[Stephen Dubner]

McCullough did the Brooklyn Bridge.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, the Great Bridge.

[Stephen Dubner]

I love that book.

[Dax Shepard]

And the Path Between Two Seas.

[Stephen Dubner]

What's that?

[Dax Shepard]

That's The Panama Canal. McCullough. The most boring and interesting books of all time. McCullough.

[Stephen Dubner]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Now, this crossed my mind as I was walking downstairs and I knew you were coming. And as I was coming down the stairs, I found myself saying over and over again, stephen Dubna. And then I wanted to ask you, do you find that people inordinately want to say your name in an English accent?

[Stephen Dubner]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

No. Because it rings of Gubna.

[Monica Padman]

Oh.

[Dax Shepard]

Like we all like to say Gubna. And so do people go, stephen Gubna. Am I way out, too far on a limb? I am.

[Stephen Dubner]

Okay. Except my initial response is you were totally bonkers and wrong.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Stephen Dubner]

Like no.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Stephen Dubner]

But now that I think about it, I have this one close friend with three kids who I used to see a lot when they were little, and now they're grown and they have kids of their own. But in that family, I am known as the governor. That's right.

[Monica Padman]

And do they say it in that accent?

[Dax Shepard]

Just be aware of it.

[Stephen Dubner]

But the fact is that I never really registered it until you gave me that, so thank you.

[Dax Shepard]

I started asking myself, why am I so inclined to say Stephen Dubna?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. I too, was like, what are you doing? But it does make sense.

[Dax Shepard]

I had to chase it down.

[Stephen Dubner]

So just clock it.

[Dax Shepard]

And then in our next interview. Interview in three years, just tell me. You know what? You were kind of right. People do do that to me.

[Monica Padman]

Wow. Okay. We love having you here.

[Stephen Dubner]

I love being here.

[Dax Shepard]

I really do.

[Stephen Dubner]

I was really looking forward to seeing you guys.

[Dax Shepard]

I appreciate what I was gonna say.

[Stephen Dubner]

I really do.

[Monica Padman]

It's always a joy.

[Dax Shepard]

You and Angela. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

I just go, oh, great, they're coming. I have nothing to do. You know, you interview people. Like, there's a handful of people. You're right.

[Stephen Dubner]

I mean, I look forward to them all, but I'm also scared of everyone.

[Monica Padman]

What do you mean?

[Stephen Dubner]

For freak radio, I interview could be between zero and eight people a week, tapings, and they could run from one to two hours. But it could be an academic who's been writing on a topic for 30 years. And I've read one paper, and I have researchers, we have producers on the show who are great. They work incredibly hard and they create for me. For every single guest, I'll have a prep of like 10 to 20 pages with all kinds of excerpts, citations, etc. So we all do a lot of work beforehand, but if it's someone that I don't know, I have reason to think that they may be anxious, nervous.

[Monica Padman]

Video makes it very, very interesting.

[Stephen Dubner]

I'm trying to. So ignore.

[Dax Shepard]

You can only be on us for so long.

[Stephen Dubner]

Well, the reason I'm particularly palpitating right now thinking about this, and I've even forgotten the original question is that I'm.

[Dax Shepard]

Starting a TV show called Better in Person.

[Stephen Dubner]

Well, maybe we'll talk about that. We're still kind of in search of titles, but when you learn to do something in a given medium. So I started in music, within music. I was very comfortable. It takes a long time to get there. Then became a writer within journalism or book writing. It takes a while, but then you get there. Podcasting, now I've done for 15 years. It took a long time. I'm very comfortable every time you think about doing a new thing. I don't know about for you guys, but I feel like what should feel cumulative. I've got a lot of experience I know a lot. It's not cumulative. It's like scratch pen. You rip it off this blank page again. This should be served with a moist towelette.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, it should. It should. Maybe even a full hand towel or.

[Stephen Dubner]

Like a face mask bidet. Actually, face bidet is not a bad idea.

[Dax Shepard]

That's a thing, Stephen. We've had those for quite a minute here.

[Stephen Dubner]

You have to use your hands and, like, just something you could.

[Dax Shepard]

You want to spray at and then dry. You could bend down and use the bidet as a face bidet. It's on.

[Stephen Dubner]

I'm not gonna do that.

[Monica Padman]

I'm not doing that.

[Stephen Dubner]

I'm with you. Angela Duckworth actually was on an episode we once made. It was a live show. We did. We had a kind of game show for a while, and the episode was called would you eat a piece of chocolate shaped like dog poop?

[Dax Shepard]

Oh.

[Stephen Dubner]

And it was about this notion that once you think that something. Once you think he's fine with using the bidet for his face, but once you think of something in a disgusting mode, it's really hard to flip it.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, that power of disgust is its own. There's so much work on disgust. Right. It's even what causes genocides and stuff. Right. It's the number one thing that's leveraged and weaponized.

[Stephen Dubner]

Do we know that? I mean, that makes sense when you say it. Disgusting. The thing that's weird about it is it's very necessary for hygiene for not eating the wrong stuff. Yeah. But when it becomes disgust in other people. Wow. And we're seeing a not low level of global disgust in other people. I would say. I don't know if we know the real level, but it feels not low.

[Monica Padman]

We talked yesterday on a fact check. I just edited it so it's fresh about poop. And of course, we talked about how all animals eat poop except us.

[Stephen Dubner]

Is that true?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. We're very unique in this.

[Stephen Dubner]

All animals eat poop.

[Monica Padman]

He said that.

[Stephen Dubner]

Was it true?

[Dax Shepard]

Most of them do because they need to pick up each other's gut biome. Oh.

[Stephen Dubner]

That's a whole other story that I like.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. And so it's very, very weird that we don't watch other primates. They eat directly out of. They eat it from the source sometimes.

[Stephen Dubner]

I was with you until you got to. It's very weird that we don't.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

That's where this conversation.

[Stephen Dubner]

I got to get off the back train.

[Dax Shepard]

The definition of weird is that it is super asymmetric.

[Stephen Dubner]

You got all these primates once Again, you're right. You were right with the governor.

[Monica Padman]

So let me just move that fast step.

[Stephen Dubner]

Can I just summarize? Dex Shepard says we should be eating our own poop. That's the headline.

[Dax Shepard]

Let's be very clear because you've already out of contexted me. I said it's very weird we don't. Which is much different than we should.

[Stephen Dubner]

Yeah, I feel your version would actually be more incendiary. It's very weird that we don't eat our poop. Well, mine sounds prima facie dumb. Like there's no way he would have said that.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Stephen Dubner]

Yours sounds logical.

[Monica Padman]

It's kind of smart.

[Stephen Dubner]

It's very smart.

[Monica Padman]

Well.

[Dax Shepard]

But what I got curious about is how recently is this if we're seeing all the other primates. Don't. And my quick theory was I bet when we were hunting and gathering societies in a group of a hundred and we didn't live with animals, we didn't have all these weird diseases. I bet it was fine. And then I bet once we started living in civilizations, people who did eat poop dropped like flies because there was so much bacteria and all these diseases. I mean, I bet it happened pretty quick.

[Stephen Dubner]

I would love to know the answer to that question. I would also love to know the.

[Dax Shepard]

That's a challenge.

[Stephen Dubner]

Median numbers.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, please.

[Stephen Dubner]

The median number of days that it takes for different species for their poop to lose the smell. Because you know, if you come across dried dog or goose poop, it has no odor.

[Dax Shepard]

It's tolerable. Yes. The mechanism is clearly olfactory.

[Stephen Dubner]

They look like chocolate.

[Dax Shepard]

They look like Tootsie Rolls and stuff.

[Stephen Dubner]

Especially the rabbits. Rabbits and deer.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. We mentioned the rabbit poops.

[Dax Shepard]

Nicely shaped the rate that animals create waste. And it's shocking. Some animals are shitting 60 times a day.

[Monica Padman]

No, rabbits. 200 to 300 times a day.

[Dax Shepard]

Two to 300 times a day.

[Stephen Dubner]

Does suggest some markets that are maybe under, you know, bunny bidet.

[Dax Shepard]

First of all, I've never seen that bunny pooper scooper.

[Monica Padman]

That's right.

[Dax Shepard]

Bunny diapers. But anyways. Okay.

[Stephen Dubner]

What Is not what you wanted me here to talk about.

[Dax Shepard]

No, what I wanted to say as a preamble is. And I got half of it out, which is. I just love when you're on. And honestly, any topic that comes up, I'm probably going to be super interested in your take on it. And so in that vein, instead of me doing like my nor, I just kind of came up with some topics I want your opinion on.

[Stephen Dubner]

I like that.

[Dax Shepard]

It's not Going to be called Better in person. But one of the descriptions you made, which we both feel you on deeply is, your goal with better in person is instead of just interviewing an expert on a topic, this is far more a conversation where we hope to learn what kind of human this person is, which is always what I want.

[Stephen Dubner]

I'm just ripping you off.

[Dax Shepard]

No, you're not. You were eight years before us at your 15 year anniversary and we're coming up on eight.

[Stephen Dubner]

No, but I mean my new thing is just ripping off this thing.

[Monica Padman]

That's flattering.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah. I'll take. If you're imitating us, I think we've done something really special. I agree. And then as an experiment, they'll be last, is. I've never done this.

[Stephen Dubner]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

It feels unethical. I asked AI the first time ever. Hey, I'm interviewing Stephen Thabna for the third time.

[Stephen Dubner]

Did it tell you? Don't say his name like that.

[Dax Shepard]

Doesn't like it. He's never heard it. What are some topics that we could have fun conversing?

[Stephen Dubner]

I do that a lot.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, you do?

[Stephen Dubner]

I think AI is an amazing. I mean, I'm using this much of one fingernail of the gigantic herd of robots. But I think what you did is normal or will be normal.

[Monica Padman]

I did it yesterday for a big guest.

[Stephen Dubner]

Oh, you did?

[Dax Shepard]

So you just had your first experience as well.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, but I thought they were all.

[Stephen Dubner]

Can I tell you what engine were you using with chat? So I happen to use one called Perplexity because I like it. It's a really simple interface that pulls from a lot of models, which I think is probably valuable. What I like about it is you can push it subtly and it keeps coming. If I say, tell me five interesting things about Dax Shepar, it'll give me blah, blah, blah. And I say, well, those are fine, but I know those. And I want something more along the lines of X, Y or Z. But the X, Y or Z could be like animal, mineral or vegetable. It could be. I want more emotional stuff. I want more moto racing. So I feel it's a great research tool now. It's not a substitute. It's like when computers started beating humans in chess. And go. Which is very complicated years ago, people were, as they always are, worried with these new technologies, people will now stop playing chess.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Stephen Dubner]

And in fact, that had the opposite effect because no one wants to watch two machines play each other. We like humans. I like you guys. Yes, you may like me.

[Dax Shepard]

And that was even a little bit of my ethical Justification is I was like, well, A, I'm gonna tell you I did this. And then B, these are just prompts for you and I and Monica. And then that'll be the real thing.

[Stephen Dubner]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

So it's like the actual meat and potatoes. But I gotta say. So it gave me 10. And I liked, like, seven of them. Wow. Seven of them are very much ones. I would wanna hear your opinion. And then I have a good relationship with mine. It then said, do you want me to come up with what I want to talk about five or six speed round, fun, irreverent questions like I did yesterday.

[Stephen Dubner]

That was an offer from out of.

[Dax Shepard]

Nowhere pulling from a previous search of mine.

[Stephen Dubner]

It does like you. And I said, I'm jealous now because mine doesn't do that kind of stuff.

[Dax Shepard]

I was offering more and more. And then it said, do you want me to design an arc of how you could lay these out? It did not.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you think I could show it to you?

[Stephen Dubner]

It's incredible.

[Monica Padman]

But do you think he knows you're a celebrity and he's trapped?

[Dax Shepard]

No, I told him I am the host of Armchair Expert.

[Monica Padman]

I know, but I'm saying maybe he's like. Like, oh, it's a celebrity. I gotta impress him. Like, yeah, he's nervous and he wants to do well. Yeah. This is fascinating. Do you think it's unethical? Okay, so have you heard the guy who tried to ask his AI to count to a million?

[Stephen Dubner]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

You must watch this video.

[Monica Padman]

It's incredible.

[Dax Shepard]

We'll send it to you.

[Stephen Dubner]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

She refuses to do it, which is a little startling because it's like, she can. Why won't she do it? Yikes. But then he's getting so mad at her and he's being verbally.

[Stephen Dubner]

He keeps going.

[Dax Shepard]

Don't be difficult.

[Monica Padman]

Maybe he calls her a bitch, maybe it's not. He gets very mean. And is it ethical for him. Yeah. To be mean to this robot?

[Stephen Dubner]

I guess I could think on it more but my first response would say, not only is it not unethical because we know that the emotion that's being mistreated is not a human emotion. And we also know that the people who write that code and make that machine they understand the way barriers are shiftable and so on. And additionally, I would say it's a really nice use of technology to absorb maybe someone's hostility that doesn't have to be then directed to a real person.

[Monica Padman]

I did end up saying that.

[Stephen Dubner]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And you have to imagine he's sitting in his Living room with a remote control going, you fucking bitch.

[Monica Padman]

But it's just weird because it is recording and you're like, she's getting yelled at and she's nothing.

[Dax Shepard]

He's like, you're a fucking computer. It's not like you have any.

[Stephen Dubner]

I mean, it's definitely abusive, but it's like, abuse the lawnmower. Abusive, right?

[Monica Padman]

Exactly.

[Stephen Dubner]

Abuse the AI. Don't abuse people.

[Dax Shepard]

Save your patience for humans.

[Stephen Dubner]

Yeah, I like the NFL a lot. And I often think of it, especially at this late, relatively advanced state in our civilization, as a proxy for war. Everything about it is very warlike, but also the pageantry around it now. But I think if these guys are willing to go do that and they get compensated well. But it's still, it's an unbelievably hard, difficult and physical thing to do. If they're willing to go do that for their entertainment, for their making a living, for their family. And we get to watch that and feel like it was warlike. And if then that diminishes our appetite for real war, I think that's a great thing. And so similarly, I would say this bozo yelling at a CI, you know, it's probably for the good.

[Dax Shepard]

I agree with you the whole way. So what I loved was Malcolm did Revenge of Tipping Point this year and I read it and I loved it. So, Freakonomics. This is the 20th anniversary.

[Stephen Dubner]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

And on November 11th we're gonna have a new edition.

[Stephen Dubner]

Yeah, but I just wanna be super clear. It's the original book.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, that's fine with.

[Stephen Dubner]

I wrote a new forward, but I did one interview before you. I'm sorry, I meant to come here virginally. I failed. And the person who was lovely, lovely said, you know, I want you to tell me about all the new things in the book. And I said, no, there's nothing new in it.

[Dax Shepard]

No, there's a forward and a new jacket.

[Stephen Dubner]

Right. And then she said, but we could talk about it as if there is a lot new. And I said, no, that would really be wrong. I'm first and foremost a writer. That's what I started as. It's what I am. And so I take all that stuff seriously. But you're right, we are publishing a new edition which has a new forward which did take me like six months to write three pages.

[Dax Shepard]

Because it's rusty, huh?

[Stephen Dubner]

No, it's not rusty. It was a forced occasion to replay this 20 year movie, which has been amazing, but also it was tied to. I mean, this is not what you asked. So you may not want to know this, but I'll tell you until you shut me up. I'm having a problem in my home office of getting rid of all my archives. I have archives from when I was a musician. I have set lists from my band, like all of them, but I can't throw them away. I was staring down those boxes one day in my office, faced with paralyzed dread. And then I got a text from Steve Levitt, my co author on Freakonomics. And he said, Happy 20th anniversary of publication. It was the day and I didn't even remember the day.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Stephen Dubner]

I don't know how he remembers. Cause he's not a sentimental guy. So this is what I ended up writing the foreword about. But honestly, what I'm feeling around this 20 year anniversary is what anybody feels as they get older. Even you. You're young, but as you get older, you have such a different reckoning and appreciation for your own past and the past of other people. Things mean more. Life is cumulative. It's not. I feel this way now instead of that. It's like I feel this and all of those other things too. And in some ways I think you get wiser. I've really enjoyed that. You get more experience. In some ways there's inevitable sadness because death is this thing that I've always tried to just really ignore it.

[Dax Shepard]

I'll be honest with you.

[Stephen Dubner]

Even though my father died when I was a kid, I'm 62 and I'm the youngest of eight. And I've always been like the protected baby boy starting to go.

[Dax Shepard]

That's the thing.

[Stephen Dubner]

I'm the youngest. My oldest is 17 years older.

[Dax Shepard]

That's big.

[Stephen Dubner]

He's very healthy and he's a former Air Force pilot. I think he could beat us all up.

[Dax Shepard]

Bring up Malcolm. Because what I thought was really cool about the Revenge of the Tipping Point was he starts by kind of acknowledging. So a, this was written in a different time, a different context, and I was a different person.

[Stephen Dubner]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And so let me look back on it now in a different context as a different person. What do I agree with or not? And it's kind of a takedown piece of his own book, which I just thought was really cool and brave and interesting.

[Stephen Dubner]

I probably could have or should have done that.

[Dax Shepard]

Maybe. I was just wondering. So one of his was the Broken Windows chapter.

[Stephen Dubner]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

He's like, well, now we know that was. So is there anything that you look back at in the book and you're like, minimally, I wouldn't write that now.

[Stephen Dubner]

Yeah. So I will say that what Malcolm said is pretty close to a lot of the things that I feel about Freakonomics, in that you're a much younger person. But also, like he said, the time was different.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Stephen Dubner]

So I did go back and read the book. I liked it. I was very pleasantly surprised.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, that's great.

[Stephen Dubner]

Our main incentive was to be truthful and be interesting. It was really simple as that. And to have fun. Both Levitt and I don't take ourselves too seriously. We reported and researched and fact checked and dotted every AI. So I wasn't concerned about that. We did have one thing shortly after publication that we found out had been wrong, which was a kind of terrible thing. This guy that we wrote about as having. Having heroically gone undercover in the Ku Klux Klan and exposed them. And he did do a lot of that type of work, but he kind of conflated his own identity with that of another guy who did the undercover stuff. And he wrote books about it. We interviewed him. He'd been in all these histories of civil rights movement and Klan, and it turned out that he had exaggerated. So I'd never heard or read a word about any claims like this. But when we published our book Freakonomics 2005, someone wrote to us who had been a collaborator of that guy much later working on a book together. And this guy had had access to a set of very robust and valuable archives that were essentially private archives. They weren't on the public record. So I went into those archives, looked at everything, found out that this guy who was saying that our main character had exaggerated was probably very accurate. I went to our subject. This guy's name was Stetson Kennedy. He's gone now, but he was quite old then. And I said, I need to talk to you about something kind of important. He was in Florida. I flew down to Florida.

[Dax Shepard]

That confrontation give you anxiety, or are you excited to have no anxiety?

[Stephen Dubner]

Sadness. Sadness. Because I am 99.9. I'm right. So I envision. What's he gonna say? He's either gonna deny or it's gonna be like, oh, right. And none of those are good.

[Dax Shepard]

This is like the Brian Williams thing.

[Stephen Dubner]

Oh, yeah, that's right.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't take any joy in finding.

[Monica Padman]

Out that's a Million Little Pieces guy.

[Stephen Dubner]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

That one really broke my heart because it was such a beautiful book.

[Stephen Dubner]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And it didn't matter, but Oprah felt very betrayed.

[Stephen Dubner]

Although the one emotion I hadn' for myself was feeling betrayed by him. Even though that probably wouldn't have been Inappropriate, Right, exactly. Anyway.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, so you fly there.

[Stephen Dubner]

I do. And I sit and I tell him the whole story. I tell him the guy who gave me all this information because he knows him, he worked with him.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Stephen Dubner]

And he just said, none of that makes any sense. I don't know what you're talking about. I was convinced that we were right. So I ended up writing in the New York Times a column that explained this mistake we'd made. But that's what journalists do. That's what writers do. If you get had or if you make a mistake, you have to admit. So anyway, that was a long way of saying that. I don't think there's anything in freakonomics that we would do really differently for the people we were then.

[Dax Shepard]

But you would agree, right? There's a great spectrum of conclusions. In some ways you might look at the exact same data and maybe make a very similar point. But it might be a little bit over here to the left or the right.

[Stephen Dubner]

I agree. And I think a good example of that is probably the most famous claim from the book about the relationship between legalized abortion and crime. There are kind of two tracks of that. The first track is that Steve Levitt and this guy's John Donahue, who's now at Stanford, I believe a legal scholar had done this paper before I met Levitt. This is how Levitt kind of got on the map that showed a causal relationship between the legalization of abortion and the crime rate. It was not a complicated argument. It takes a long time to describe it only cause there's a kind of collage of evidence that goes into making it up. But the argument essentially is that abortion often serves, as. I was gonna say a form of birth control. That's not really right.

[Dax Shepard]

Preventing an unwanted child.

[Stephen Dubner]

It's a decision that happens often when a would be mom feels like the time and place are not right. Yes. And I would make the umbrella that large because there are a lot of things that can go into that. Maybe you're very young, maybe you've already got kids and the time is not right. Maybe you or your family are in bad financial situations.

[Dax Shepard]

Maybe you're starting to get divorced from the father. Maybe you were raped.

[Monica Padman]

Maybe you live in a place with so much violence, there's so many.

[Stephen Dubner]

So there's a lot. And there is a body of social science research that argues unquestionably that when a child is born into a wanted situation, let's call it whatever the family is.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Planned.

[Stephen Dubner]

Well, not even planned necessarily, because honestly, I'm the eighth of eight. I don't know how planned I was, but I was very loved on my birthday. All my older sisters write about the day I came home from the hospital. How happy they were to have a new baby boy.

[Dax Shepard]

I would have killed for an older sister.

[Stephen Dubner]

Yeah, I mean, I have four if you need one.

[Monica Padman]

I am one.

[Dax Shepard]

Have you written a lot of letters to Neil about the day he arrived? You might want to get on that.

[Monica Padman]

I held when he was little and stuff like that. But older sisters are great.

[Stephen Dubner]

Older sisters are great. Anyway, wantedness is good, unwantedness is bad. The odds are if a baby is born into a home where that baby is not wanted, there is a higher chance that that kid will have a bad outcome in life. When I say bad outcome, meaning lower education, higher crime, lower income, et cetera, this is inarguable. Okay, so the argument from Steve Lem and John Donahue was that the legalization of abortion provided a way to reduce unwantedness. And if therefore you reduce unwantedness, what is one of the many other effects you might have down the road? Maybe fewer people committing crimes because they're growing up in a better circumstance.

[Dax Shepard]

The crime one is so juicy in so many ways because all of us have been watching this plummeting crime rate. And everyone's got to take this was broken windows. That was yet another stab at how it came down. The one I heard that was absolutely shocking was in Sweden. I'm pretty sure Sweden, somewhere in Scandinavia, they had a reduction in these small petty crimes. And they really wanted to know what they were doing that had caused this. And after studying it for a very, very long time, what they ended up finding out was people just stopped reporting them. People in Sweden came to accept it as just a part of life. You have things stolen from your car and you just accept it. And it's like, oh, wow, who's gonna think of that? The same amount are happening, they're just not being reported. It's such a dynamic.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, it's not one of the fits all either.

[Dax Shepard]

But we're so inclined to find out, so we can triple down on it and eliminate it. I see the incentive.

[Stephen Dubner]

Your example is so good because also we've all been herded into and almost. What's the cattle prod? You know, electric shock. Like our brains are just getting prodded every day to be more binary in our thinking. Hate, love, yes, no, black, white, et cetera. Whereas one of the great strengths of the human mind is that we're not binary thinkers. We are extremely variegated in time and dimens. I am astonished still. I love talking to people. I love hearing how there are just these little synapses happening in your muscle, just like mine, but they come to something totally different.

[Dax Shepard]

What you're actually discovering when you talk to people is what the ratio is of these binary options. It's almost like we are all somewhere on this spectrum. If you reduce it to the polls, it's binary. But really what we're discovering is like, no, no, I'm 39% liberal. Right. Or I'm 46% in favor of the death penalty. Like, that's what's interesting.

[Stephen Dubner]

Do you also then discover in the course of a conversation, what is the Venn diagram between you and that person and the types of synapses that are firing?

[Dax Shepard]

That's where I start, right? When I'm researching someone, I'm just trying to earmark all the things that we have in common that can jump off from there. Right? Oh, you were dyslexic. We know this experience. How did that downriver?

[Stephen Dubner]

I look for all the ways in which I'm inferior when I do that. Instead of having common, isn't that money?

[Monica Padman]

We do all. I'm always looking for advice. I'm like, you know something? I don't know.

[Stephen Dubner]

Maybe my method is bad. Yours is good. And yours is good. Looking for things in common so that you can have an actual conversation makes perfect sense. I don't know why yours is good.

[Dax Shepard]

But you just brought me to the actual thing I most want to tackle with you that is potentially most dicey. Do you think that we have entered a moment where silence is the biggest protest imaginable?

[Stephen Dubner]

I'll be honest with you. I don't participate very much in the online world. I use digital stuff all the time. But if we think of the online world as kind of like a second conversation that's happening for many people, that's not a conversation I really get involved with, I'll be honest with you. And therefore I'm aware of it, because I have people who are in that conversation, but I'm not really in it. And so this sounds bad, but one of the many things I don't like about living deep in that online world is that there are these compulsions that don't really seem to jibe with actual human nature. There are expectations that if you don't think or say or feel a certain thing about it could be anything, then you're gonna be either outgrouped or thought less of. And I think that that's just never the way that humans have thrived. When I look at human history and I'm not a great historian, but I love history. I love reading it. I love talking to historians because I'm like a child. I just don't know that much. I didn't really like history when I was a student at all because I didn't get what older people say about history being instructive. To me, you read history because you had to, and sometimes it happened to be interesting and you would remember the interesting things. Now I read history because it's the reason that people read philosophy. It's the reason people read old religious stuff. The human condition has changed a lot. But I don't think the human has changed that much.

[Dax Shepard]

No, no.

[Stephen Dubner]

And therefore it can be thrilling, intoxicating, scary, et cetera, et cetera, to see what history has brought for us that we can remember now.

[Dax Shepard]

Stay tuned for more Armchair expert if you dare. This message is brought to you by Apple Pay.

[Monica Padman]

Dax can you believe it's already fall? This year's flown by.

[Dax Shepard]

I know, right? But fall is my jam. Remember that farmer's market we hit up last weekend?

[Monica Padman]

Yes. All those vendors with their yummy apple ciders and the big pumpkins. I love big pumpkins.

[Dax Shepard]

Artisanal apple cider, don't forget. And the smell. Fresh baked goods. Heaven. But here's what blew my mind. So many vendors accepted Apple Pay.

[Monica Padman]

It was so convenient. I love Apple Pay. Everywhere I saw the contactless symbol, I just double clicked the side button on my phone to bring up my card. And then just a quick little face ID scan. Tap, boom. So easy.

[Dax Shepard]

Apple Pay has been my MVP this season to buy festive fall treats and drinks.

[Monica Padman]

And you know, I'm on a mission to find the best fall themed latte in town. You know this.

[Dax Shepard]

I do know that. How's it going? That maple one you were telling me about sounded pretty insane.

[Monica Padman]

It was so good. And get this, you can also use Apple Pay at lots of cafes. No fumbling for your wallet. Just double click, tap and sip.

[Dax Shepard]

It works at millions of places. Anywhere you see the contactless symbol in stores or see the Apple Pay button online and in apps.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly. Making it easier to enjoy all the fall goodness.

[Dax Shepard]

Speaking of which, I'm totally set for Halloween. Apple Pay made it a breeze to purchase the perfect decorations online. Right from my iPhone. I just tap the Apple Pay button at checkout, double click to authenticate and boom. Payment complete. No long checkout forms. No fuss.

[Monica Padman]

Fall festivities have never been more fun or easy.

[Dax Shepard]

Hey, the Apple Way terms apply. We are supported by T mobile 5G home Internet. Like everyone, home Internet is our life. And there's nothing worse than when it slows down.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, I know. Especially when you're doing something important like editing this show.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, actually, there's one worse thing. Waiting around all day for the cable guy to show up to install it.

[Monica Padman]

I want those five hours back.

[Dax Shepard]

Fortunately, T Mobile's got home Internet. They have fast speeds and it sets up easily in 15 minutes with just one cord.

[Monica Padman]

Anyone can do it, even me.

[Dax Shepard]

Hey, we were first in on T Mobile's home Internet. We were using it up in the attic.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. If you recall, it powers this very show.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, it's so reliable. And when you've got a podcast full of valuable, valuable insights about human nature and poop jokes, you need that.

[Monica Padman]

We all need that.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, and the low price is guaranteed for 5 years.

[Monica Padman]

5 years. Gotta respect to LTR guarantees monthly price.

[Dax Shepard]

Of fixed wireless 5G Internet data exclusions like taxes and fees applies. Service delivered via 5G network speeds vary due to factor affecting cellular networks. Check availability and guarantee exclusions and [e-mail] homeintermin Internet. This episode is brought to you by Square Banking. You know what? I love watching local businesses grow and thrive. Like in our neighborhood even Cara. I've rooted for mustard seed. I've rooted for. I just love watching people start their small businesses and succeed. That's why so many businesses trust Square banking. It's a complete platform that puts you in control of your money and helps you fuel your next big move. With a free Square checking account, you get instant access to your sales capital to expand. Square loans are based on your business's performance. And 88% of businesses with Square loans report growth. Go to square.com godax to learn more about how your business can grow with square. That's sq u a r e.com g o/dax block inc. Is not a bank. Banking services provided by Square Financial Services Inc. Member FDIC. Square checking provided by Sutton Bank Member FDIC Loans are submitted subject to credit approval. We are supported by Quince. Fall is here and Quince delivers the perfect seasonal staples. From 100 Mongolian cashmere starting at just $60 to their sharp looking suede trucker jacket that's ideal for layering.

[Monica Padman]

I love the sweaters. It's sweater weather.

[Dax Shepard]

It's exciting and you just couldn't be more delighted when you get something from Quince. They're so good.

[Monica Padman]

The quality is really so good.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, that's because Quint's partners directly with ethical factories and top artisans cutting out the middlemen to bring you premium quality at half the cost of similar brands. Their classic fit denim and real leather and wool outerwear feel like they should cost twice as much. Trust me, these are pieces you'll wear on repeat. Layer up this fall with pieces that feel as good as they look. Go to quints.com Dax for free shipping and 365 day return. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com Dax okay, I'll use a very specific example. Yeah. And it's a dangerous one, but I'll use it. You are going to dinner with people. You are having dinner parties. You are out and about. And I think there is this absolute insistence. Yeah. That you declare whether you are.

[Stephen Dubner]

Do you hate Israel or love Israel?

[Dax Shepard]

Netanyahu or pro Hamas? And I'm over here going, guys, you've presented me with the two shittiest fucking options in the world.

[Stephen Dubner]

I understand.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't want either of these options. They both fucking suck. And you should stand up and say, they fucking suck. And we should not get drug into this situation that's been ongoing and now we all get sucked into it. But I do think the most dangerous thing is to go like, absolutely not. I'm not saying that side's right or that side's right. The most I can tell you is both sides suck.

[Stephen Dubner]

So I'm glad you use this specific. I'll have a conversation with anybody anytime, about anything.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Stephen Dubner]

It's what I like to do. Especially in the last 10, 15 years or maybe 20, I've met types of people that I never thought I would have met just because of the nature of what I've ended up doing professionally. And then I became a golfer. And that introduced me into a world that I had these preconceptions about, and I was so wrong. But when someone comes at me with a binary, you're for us or against us. What I try to do, what I probably do do mostly, is I say, first of all, let's define terms. And that's a trick I think I learned from academia. Let's take it away from the fasc. If you're going to call someone in economic terms a communist or a socialist, let's define terms. Are we talking about the socialism of 2025? Denmark? Yeah, we talk about the socialism of 1925, Vienna. It's a big difference now.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Stephen Dubner]

What do you mean by that? So this goes back to, I wonder if you've ever come across this, in talking with Angela or anyone else in that realm, I'm probably going to get all these facts wrong. But in my memory there's something called the illusion of explanatory death. Basically, if you go to a family gathering, let's say, right, people know you, you know them, you have some prior expectations. Just go up to them and start asking them about hot button issues, whatever you think they are, people get pretty heated pretty quickly. But then if you take one of those hot button issues, let's say it's gun control or immigration or something, and ask them in a non obnoxious way, which is hard, but ask them to explain, like, what do you mean exactly by border control? So it turns out that people just don't know what they're talking about most of the time. But we all pretend to. The reason I don't like that is we pretend to. In order to have a position in order to be in a tribe that I want to get out of. I think this idea that we've all allowed ourselves to be herded into two.

[Dax Shepard]

Political parties, even more offensive that people feel unique in expressing the opinion that 50% of the country all have. I got another point. Yeah, I heard it from everybody on your fucking team. You all have the same fucking point. Come to me when you've had an original thought.

[Monica Padman]

I also think.

[Stephen Dubner]

I'm sorry, Monica, that's just hard to follow because you just have to give the room a minute.

[Monica Padman]

I know it was very.

[Stephen Dubner]

It was very well done.

[Monica Padman]

No, that was very good because you don't have to pick a side. But if someone cares about something, that's also okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, of course not.

[Monica Padman]

Of course.

[Stephen Dubner]

To everyone you're saying Dax is not. Of course.

[Dax Shepard]

This is a great example. We would have to agree on terms. Do I not want people to care about stuff? That's not at all what I want. What I don't want is for someone to be heralded as brave for repeating the already agreed upon tenants of their tribe in public. It's not a conversation. They didn't sit with someone in converse. They broadcasted.

[Stephen Dubner]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

The talking points of their tribe. And people are like, so brave. Not brave at all. Being brave is going against your tribe saying the opposite thing that's been agreed upon. That's brave. The other thing is grandstanding.

[Monica Padman]

But there is a reality to the world in which you do need a big. It's like what we heard about protesting. It works because you see that there are so many people who do think like you think, who are willing to stand up against something else and you get emboldened by that. So there's a reality that voices and numbers help.

[Dax Shepard]

So I agree with you. And that's the emperor wears new clothes analogy Steven Pinker just gave us. And that's totally true. What if they're already completely known that we already know. We know. We know. So the person that's standing up and continuing to yell, it's already been acknowledged. We all know. We all know now this is a pointless endeavor. And additionally the arrogance that you think you have converted somebody. You haven't converted anyone. Not one of the people yelling has converted someone from the other side. So it's pointless. It's not brave, it's grandstanding. And it's further cementing us in this tribe. It is the actual problem.

[Stephen Dubner]

I'm glad you two came to me for help because it's obvious there's an irreconcilable difference here.

[Monica Padman]

I think there might be.

[Stephen Dubner]

And I'd like to say in all honesty, I think you're both right. I wouldn't even say these things are opposite. They plainly can coexist. What I hear you both saying is that one of the most painful things I know for me, I think for everybody is to be somewhere between being misunderstood and being accused of something you didn't do. That is a great human injustice and it always has been. We've all been accused of things we did. We've all gotten off with things we did and didn't get caught. But when you're accused of something you didn't do, you feel this outrage. And I feel like that's the temperature of the far end of the spectrum.

[Dax Shepard]

It does feel like it's threatening your existence in this bizarre way. I think it triggers your actual sense of.

[Stephen Dubner]

I thought I was living in a world that made sense and now it doesn't. I had one in ninth grade, maybe in school. So I was a good student. It came kind of naturally. We had good brain power in the family. And I was the youngest of eight and so I kind of knew the stuff before I got to the grade, which was handy. I knew the French just cause being in a family was like being in school. And I was decent at math. I liked math. On a math test, I had the teacher bring it back to me. Like she made me stay after class. So this teacher, she was convinced that I had cheated on the test. I got like a 97 on the test. I didn't know what to say. I'd never cheated. I had people cheat off of me. But I was also very shy as a kid. So if I weren't shy, I would have said, what are you talking about? Or I would have said to my mother when I got home, like, this is going on with Mrs. So and so. But I did none of that. Cause I was very shy and obedient and willing to take a beating as a kid.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't like that at all.

[Stephen Dubner]

And then she made me take the retest, and I got a 98 one better, which didn't surprise me because, like, I'd seen the test before. And you know what she did after? Nothing.

[Dax Shepard]

Because she was now embarrassed.

[Stephen Dubner]

Nothing. Then I was so pissed because it felt like an injustice. So I feel like now the world is full of people who have some version of that feeling something is being done to them, taken from them, said about them, or done to. Taken from. Said about people that they know and love. It's a strange mix of reactions.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Where are you at personal on this? We would all agree. The most divisive moment in my life of 50 years.

[Stephen Dubner]

I am in the give a stranger a hug mode. Any more of that type of emotion argument, Anger, frustration, all of which are legitimate. Contempt. I want to get rid of the contempt. Do you know Arthur Brooks? He's a scholar, trained as an economist, and he's written a bunch of books. And we did an episode with him on a book he wrote about contempt a few years ago. And I was just re listening to it. I think I want to replay it for our show because you're always searching for what to say about the moment. My show, Freak Radio. We're not a news show at all. We have a series coming out this winter that I had an idea for two years ago. I'm slow, but I'm always looking for ways as a writer to respond to the world we're in, but not to the moment, because that's a whole different conversation.

[Dax Shepard]

Like when anytime you're talking about something in the moment, you're almost certain to be reacting.

[Stephen Dubner]

It's just not me. There are a lot of people who are great at it, who thrive at it, who love it. I hate it. I'm bad at it. So what am I going to do?

[Dax Shepard]

But contempt is a really valuable thing. The thing I think of is that wonderful man from the. What's it, The Institute. And we had him, and he's so beautiful. And he repairs marriages.

[Monica Padman]

Oh.

[Stephen Dubner]

Oh, I know who you're talking about.

[Monica Padman]

John Gottman.

[Stephen Dubner]

Gotman.

[Monica Padman]

Yes, the Gotman Institute.

[Dax Shepard]

This was in blank. And the fact that he could watch a couple in couples therapy talk for six minutes and predict at a 90 plus percent rate whether they would get divorced or not. And the single component was contempt. So having learned that, when I think about the level of contempt right now, and ultimately we're in a marriage and we're not breaking up, divorce isn't an option, unfortunately.

[Stephen Dubner]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So given that we're married for life, can we afford to have contempt for each other? I don't think we can.

[Stephen Dubner]

There is conscious uncoupling, let's not forget.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, please walk me through how that works mechanically.

[Stephen Dubner]

It worked for Gwyneth.

[Monica Padman]

Didn't it work for Gwyneth?

[Stephen Dubner]

Like, it really worked. Like, everybody made fun of her. I don't know anything about.

[Dax Shepard]

She's the queen.

[Stephen Dubner]

I know I don't know anything about her, really, but I do know that she said that about the relationship.

[Monica Padman]

And it's a beautiful thing. And they have a great family.

[Dax Shepard]

And it's saying that McDonald's french fries are good. And she blasted.

[Monica Padman]

It's awesome. Because she doesn't care. She really doesn't. Thank God.

[Stephen Dubner]

That would be my first answer to your question going back is you can't care. There's a quote I like by John Wooden, the late, great UCLA basketball coach who coached these teams some absurd number of college championships in a row, but was also known to be a great. It sounds like such a cliche, but a leader, a teacher, a coach. He really, really affected the men that he coached, many of whom were very famous and many of whom became NBA players afterwards. But anyway, he said two things about character that I like, because character is something I think about a lot.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, you like character versus reputation?

[Stephen Dubner]

Oh, exactly. So you did your homework. So this is from John Wooden. I could never make this up. He said two things about character. One of them is fairly famous and I don't love it. He said character is what you do when no one is watching. That's fine, but it's got a little bit of a godly, moralistic feeling to it. I grew up in a family where that was a feeling, and it's not my preferred mode of feeling anyway. The other thing he said, though, is that people should worry more about their character than your reputation. Because reputation is simply what other people think of you, whereas character is who you really are. That, to me, is the essence of it. And maybe that is the same as his other quote about characters. What you do when no one is.

[Dax Shepard]

Watching that chasm can be so shocking. Right. It's more like.

[Stephen Dubner]

And the more you Worry about the reputation side, the harder it is to stoke your character. That's the way I see it. One of the advantages of getting older is not just actual history, but personal history and understanding how people are, how people change. What you need to accept about other people and about yourself, yourself. I believe in all the cliches. Good character is really important. Being really truly loving and kind to other people is really, really, really important. All the other things that we do for reputation or money, they're necessary, they're understandable, they're fantastic in moderation. Ambition is great. The most dangerous part about the worst parts of our attention economy, I think, is that they incentivize people to be unkind. Simple as that. We know that, that the science is pretty proven, but we got to stop that.

[Monica Padman]

Back to the marriage thing because I think it's relevant. I do want to say though, in case anyone's listening, who's in a bad.

[Stephen Dubner]

Marriage, by the way, the odds are very, very, very, very, very good that someone listening is in a very bad.

[Monica Padman]

That's right.

[Dax Shepard]

I hate to guess that it might even be more than half.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, my guess.

[Stephen Dubner]

And none of us should be saying that with a laugh in our voices. It's just a recognition of how hard is. It's hard. Life is hard.

[Monica Padman]

Life is hard. But also I think if you say like we're married, I know what you mean. Because we're one country, we have to make it work. That's the reality. But also abuse from one another is not okay. And you would say in a marriage, if that's happening, to leave.

[Stephen Dubner]

Right. Where do you go in this case, though?

[Monica Padman]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

That's what I'm saying. You got like a reverse engineer. It's not an option.

[Monica Padman]

Abuse is happening. And I think part of why it's getting so hot and escalated is because there's nowhere to go and there's abuse. It's getting so intolerable and I don't know what the answer is, but that's the reality of this scenario.

[Dax Shepard]

That's where I want to. I'm sincerely asking what do you think the solution is to that?

[Monica Padman]

I'm not smart enough to know. I can say I don't know.

[Dax Shepard]

I have a solution. I don't know that it would work. But I have thought of what the solution is. It is a one year moratorium. Moratorium on talking about politics. You still vote, you still do everything you do, but for one year you put down the political identity. Just for one year.

[Stephen Dubner]

And that's a moratorium enacted by or Carried out by whom. On whom though, Right.

[Dax Shepard]

We don't live by you. On every country that could do that. But if I had a magic wand.

[Stephen Dubner]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

And I got to ask a wish, I would ask everyone to try one year.

[Stephen Dubner]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Of not talking about politics. The country's not going to fall apart if you don't talk about it. You can still vote.

[Monica Padman]

But.

[Dax Shepard]

But I would be very curious what the temperature would be if we stopped broadcasting our allegiance to a side. I just am curious what that would look like.

[Stephen Dubner]

I think it's a good idea. I also think that knowing what I know about human behavior, when people recognize that they have a habit that they don't like, even if they want to get rid of it. And we could all name many, many bad habits that we've all had that we'd like to get rid of, but we know they're hard. And there are different stages or dimensions of addiction. Let's say it's really easy for someone outside of that mode to say, just stop it. That's the obvious answer from the 30,000 foot parental view. But everybody knows that if you're doing a thing, just stopping is hard because it's an activity. It makes you feel a certain way.

[Monica Padman]

Well, there's stuff also happening.

[Dax Shepard]

If there was a vote at the end of every month, I would agree you should stand up and try to get people to go and vote in the direction you want. But just given the reality that there's no outcome of the talk until the.

[Monica Padman]

Election happens, there are things that happen from people talking. It just happened. Disney just felt a big hit from people. Yeah. And so they made a decision. Action does have impact. And I kind of want to take Stephen's advice and say, like, what is the definition of politics? If we're saying, like, we shouldn't talk about it, what is the definition of that?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. So I wrote down how much I believe this is metastasized. I think if you were an alien and you were looking at us and you said, okay, so your diet's politics. If you're vegetarian, you're probably a liberal. If you're a carnivore, you're probably a Republican. Your automobile choice. If you're electric, you're probably liberal, but within the electric. If you drive a Tesla, you're probably a Republican. And if you drive a Chevy, you're probably a liberal.

[Stephen Dubner]

Especially Tesla truck.

[Dax Shepard]

If you shop at Lululemon, you're a liberal. If you shop at American Eagle now, you are a Republican. If you drink Bud Light versus cold Coors Your health.

[Stephen Dubner]

Oh, is that true? Bud Light and Coors are the opposite?

[Dax Shepard]

Well, Bud Light had the trans person.

[Stephen Dubner]

That I know, but what's.

[Dax Shepard]

Coors stayed out of politics. And everyone said, well, they're going to now drink Coors.

[Stephen Dubner]

Because I remember when Coors was considered a right wing beer.

[Dax Shepard]

That's what I'm saying. Coors would represent the Republicans.

[Stephen Dubner]

Bud Light representing the Bud Light post. The trans scandal.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I would say Bud Light is now.

[Stephen Dubner]

Can I just say, yeah, this is terrible. I hope they're not your sponsors, but I think anybody who's drinking either Bud Light or Chorus can do better.

[Dax Shepard]

But your health. If you believe in psychiatry, you're probably liberal. If you believe in vaccines, that's a political decision. Patriotism, if you have an American flag, that's political school. Do you believe in private homeschooling? That's probably Republican versus public school TV shows. What shows you. So it's like literally every single thing now represents a commitment to your tribe.

[Stephen Dubner]

I think it's terrible.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. It doesn't have to be that way.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, you asked what is political, and I'm saying literally, no, you're saying that.

[Stephen Dubner]

No, we've dragged that label into the rest of our lives.

[Dax Shepard]

It is metastasized in the sense that it has spread.

[Monica Padman]

But that's sort of my point. If you're saying all of that is political, then how can we not talk about politics? If it's everything now, which I think it's crazy that people are doing that. But if you're saying that's true, then how will anyone talk?

[Dax Shepard]

Well, what'll happen is if everyone has to stop talking for a year about I won't drive a Tesla because it's Republican, well, the Tesla is going to slowly stop representing that. If only liberals want this. When we stop reinforcing these objects, having political identities in everything in our life, and we're constantly broadcasting our political identity, if we stop that, I do think slowly we can depoliticize the world around us and then just go vote.

[Stephen Dubner]

I think this goes back to what we were talking about a while ago, about taking control of your own state of mind. Here's what I think. Without evidence, I think that most people, people who make everything political for themselves or for other people, which we would agree has a bad effect. I would argue that most of them probably don't really think that much about why they do it, but they've been suggested into it. There's currency for it, there's incentives to do it, but there's a certain point at which you feel like it's not having a good effect on your mind and body. Here's an example. This is also hard to prove, but one argument for why the crack epidemic went way down, not away, but way down, was because the demand fell so much. Because the next generation of user saw their older siblings or aunts and uncles using it. They said, oh my God, I want none of that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, they saw the wreckage.

[Stephen Dubner]

That's kind of the way I feel about social media now.

[Dax Shepard]

My glimmer of hope is, like, all future generations, they will hate what the one before them did. And I just pray that they're all watching this.

[Stephen Dubner]

But I think younger people than all of us are already where we're hoping that we get to.

[Dax Shepard]

That's my hope.

[Stephen Dubner]

I think we're the bad generation. Seriously, because we also have more leverage to make chaos.

[Dax Shepard]

We do, because we are the CEOs of the company. We're at that age group. And so we decide whether we are going to align ourselves.

[Stephen Dubner]

I also think it's just a choice. I visited Scotland recently for golf. It was amazing. I went with members of this golf club of mine. So it was kind of a group effort. And it's something that, if you had told me 20 years ago, you're going to be wearing a bright red club jacket and go to these clubs, 1700 something something. And it's just really, if you had.

[Dax Shepard]

Vacationed in Martha's Vineyard your whole life and you were telling me this, that's where my judgment would come in. But I kind of like this for you.

[Stephen Dubner]

I think of life as anthropology. For me, coming to LA is like, oh my God, this is live anthropology. I love. Everything is different. Every telephone wire is different here. Every building, the angle of the sun, it's being in a museum. So anyway, over there, what was really interesting is I met a lot of different people from all different kinds of realms. There is a plain spokenness in Scotland that just doesn't exist among the people that I usually hang out with here. Cause here we're usually like, you're just describing, well, if so, and so does this, then they're aligned with that. And if they're aligned with that, that means that. And over there, a lot of conversations were much more like, that's a rock, don't trip over it. This is what I think about when I'm making a show. I always think, I don't want to make an about episode, I want to make an of episode. I feel like way too many of us are spending way too Much time doing about thinking, what do I think about this? As opposed to what am I? What am. What am I accomplishing? And you can decide that as an individual. The problem is once it gets up into the corporate realm, where we are all, as individuals, customers, anybody who thinks that Twitter is their friend because it provides an open platform to do this and that, yes, that's partly true. Most people by now understand that we are the product to a large degree. It's like the New York Times where I used to work and which I still love as an institution. I think it's still one of the greatest papers that ever will be. I think a lot of the Times coverage In the last 15 or so years has been much more geared toward telling people how they should think about a particular news story as opposed to what the story is.

[Dax Shepard]

I completely agree with that.

[Stephen Dubner]

You have what the story is piece, but then it'll be surrounded and followed for days and weeks sometimes by opinion pieces. I don't really need opinion pieces, but the problem is, is that it's very, very, very marketable. I'm glad the New York Times is thriving. A previous, you know, I guess CEO or publisher Mark Thompson came in, and as far as I can tell, he saw that news is important, but if we can sell recipes and games, then we can pay for the news, and that's a reorientation. And that really worked. Did that make the news slightly less robust? Serious? I think it probably did, or it's just the nature of how journalism has changed over time. But even the New York Times and our social media and our friends that we run into, we all are pushing each other into these ridiculously tiny little silos. And I think it's up to every individual to just say, like, you know, the would be next generation crackers. Like, not for me. I would rather go surfing, go read a book, go play golf, go hang out with friends and do something and live a life that is of. Rather than be an observer and think this is what that is about, right? For a lot of people, including myself, one thing that's hard to not do, or that comes naturally, at least to me and many other people, but not all people that I've tried to just diminish a lot is the impulse to judge. The impulse to judge is, I think, a very, very smart, healthy evolutionary trait. Because everything from life on the savannah is that one gonna eat me. So you have to make judgments. You know, Danny Kahneman, I'm sure you guys have dug into that. Thinking fast and thinking slower. Two viable ways of assessing things. But often when we make a consequential decision that should be thought through slowly, we make it fast. So that's really bad. And I feel we do that all the time internally, but then externally too. And when your first response is to judge something as literally on a spectrum, positive or negative, versus. And this is what I try to do, but don't always succeed, Just observe and figure it out. Because I'm a writer and because I was very shy as a kid, I've always been very comfortable just being on the edge of the back wall and just watching and listening and taking and trying to figure out who loves who, who hates who, who's mad at who, who's trying to impress who. And I feel like if you do that, at the very least, what you're gonna do is you're gonna start by empathize. I don't mean sympathize. I mean, you can feel yourself in that person's position a little bit. And that, for me, at least, changes the calculus. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I have a very overlapping thing, which is I encourage people to have drastically different opinions. When a different opinion than yours signals a character assessment about the owner of the opinion, we've got a big problem.

[Stephen Dubner]

Then it's a problem.

[Dax Shepard]

You've decided that the way you think is proof of character. If you had character and you were a good person, you would think that this way. So just to say, oh, wow. Yeah, they have a different opinion. But I grant them, they want this place to be the best. They're in pursuit of what they think would be best for everybody. I can grant them that. We totally disagree on the best route there. That is healthy. Having a difference of opinion and having debate and discourse, that is wonderful. When you are making character assessments of people because they don't agree with you, I think you're in trouble.

[Stephen Dubner]

I agree.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you want to try an AI thought question?

[Stephen Dubner]

Yeah, I do. Can I just say, though, I love this conversation. It's really exhausting. No, no, no. But I mean, in a good way.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Stephen Dubner]

You're kind of just getting to the core of what it means to be a human at this place in time. And we're all narcissistic and we all think no other humans have ever felt like that. It's totally baloney. And you could argue the fact that we are so distressed about the things that are bad is a good sign, because the human species is always trying to improve. And the only way you can improve is to take on the problems, Right?

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Stephen Dubner]

And it's optimistic but it's exhausting in a good way. But that I feel like all of us, the planet I feel, is kind of exhausted. It's been a really wild, disorienting several years.

[Dax Shepard]

That's my other hope. My two glimmers of hope are the new generation who will just be lame that we did this. And then also I do believe people fatigue. And I'm just praying that we're approaching the fatigue right where it's like we all throw our hands up and be like, okay, I'm just too exhausted to do this exactly anymore.

[Stephen Dubner]

Going to take a nap. By the way, I think napping is also really undervalued. 28 minute caffeine nap. You drink the coffee before, then you wake up refreshed.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, this is an AI question.

[Stephen Dubner]

Or is this a Dax question saying it's an AI question?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, hiding behind an AI question. Why do we keep rebooting the 90s? Is it comfort food or a cultural panic button?

[Stephen Dubner]

I need some terms, Siri, or chat.

[Dax Shepard]

The economics of retro branding, why people buy the past, whether nostalgia can actually predict the future.

[Stephen Dubner]

Those do sound much less like you and much more like the. Those are fine. We could talk about that, but it'd be kind of like having two robots play chess. Aren't you happy that yours are so much better than theirs, though?

[Dax Shepard]

Well, I'm glad you think so.

[Stephen Dubner]

I hope that wasn't yours because that was a demonstrably mushy question.

[Dax Shepard]

It did curtail one. Exactly. To you. It said, do you think there will ever be a Freakonomics book co written with an AI? And would we even tell revenue?

[Monica Padman]

Oh, wow, they're pushing.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, what I like about pushing themselves.

[Monica Padman]

Can we write with you, Steven?

[Dax Shepard]

To me, that shows integrity. It's not afraid to have you debate whether this thing should exist or not. This almost disproves this fear that they have a consciousness they'll try to protect.

[Stephen Dubner]

My response to that question would be, well, let's define terms. What's AI? What everybody's now calling AI is one version of artificial intelligence, but it's very close to many other versions we've already had and will have. So when I first moved to New York, I'd quit playing music. I was going to graduate school for writing and I didn't have any money, so I earned money by doing word processing. It was as big as, like a Buick. It was a massive machine. You had to put in these big floppy disks for each function. So it was like the create a file floppy disk, save a file floppy Disk, spell check, but spell check and saving documents. All these things were some version of what we think of now as AI. It's just basically using compute power to do stuff that we've already known how to do do, but do it better, more efficiently is a dictionary, not AI. It's not my intelligence. I'm looking up what somebody else figured out, and they get passed on from generation to generation too. It's a cumulative thing, which is really wonderful. Like, the reason that we don't have to learn calculus to build a microphone is because generations of people did it. Now we buy it for like $200. How nuts is that? So what does that free us up to do? That's the same question we're asking now about. Right? Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare. We are supported by Allstate. You know what's smart? Checking Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds on car insurance. You know what's not smart? Not checking your phone's volume before blasting your morning pump up playlist in the office break room. Or not checking that your laptop camera's off before joining the meeting in your room robe or something. I'm a little too familiar with not checking your grocery list before heading to the store and realizing you bought everything except what you needed. Yeah, checking first is smart. So check Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary subject to terms condition and availability. Allstate North American Insurance Company and Affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois. We are supported by Lenovo. You know, as someone who's constantly juggling creative projects, I've been thinking a lot about how AI is changing the game. It's exciting, but also a little intimidating. Right? That's why I'm pretty stoked about what Lenovo's doing. Here's the thing. These aren't just computers. They're like creative partners that actually learn from you. It's wild. The more you use it, the more it adapts to your style and preferences. I'll be honest, I'm that guy who always has a million tabs open and is constantly hunting for outlet. But these PCs get me. They manage my chaos, keep things running smoothly, and somehow don't die on me mid podcast. What I love most is that they're not trying to replace my creativity, they're amplifying it. Whether I'm brainstorming ideas for the show or editing our latest episode, they enhance my process, not take over Lenovo. AI PCs with the Intel Core Ultra processor. That's the power of intel inside. It's like having a supercharged brain working alongside your your own. Learn more about Lenovo AI PCs at lenovo.com ai4u Trust me, your creative self will. Thank you. We are supported by Hill's Pet Nutrition. Something we celebrate here on Armchair Expert is that we all have juggles, struggles, faults and flaws because we're human. Those of us with pets know this all too well. We are their whole world. And that can be a lot of pressure. Things are just going to go wrong sometimes and we can only plan for so many much pet. Parent guilt is unavoidable.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Like when you left one of your dogs when you went traveling, you probably had guilt.

[Dax Shepard]

I did. Whiskey wasn't fit to make the trip, but I was relieved that he's having such a great time with Peggy at home. But yeah, because you're only human. There's Hills. Science does more. Find the right [e-mail] Dax.

[Stephen Dubner]

It'S like there's the old argument. I thought I made it up. It turns out I didn't make it up at all. But I argued years ago in some episode that when the AIs come for all of our jobs, then if we can turn into essentially pets the way dogs have been turned into pets. Because dogs used to be work animals. All these dogs were bred for different kinds of really hard work. We didn't need that work anymore, and we kept a whole bunch of dogs around. Now we love our dogs more than we love our people. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And if there's a future in which I just pee wherever I'm fucking an at, sign me up if someone comes and cleans it up. Exactly.

[Stephen Dubner]

There was a Seinfeld line from years ago. He's like, if the Martian came down, sees a species, and the guy walking around picking up the poop from the dog, who's in charge here? The first time that you were recommended a book on Amazon based on a previous book, you thought, wait, what's that?

[Dax Shepard]

Or on Netflix. Watch this. You like that?

[Stephen Dubner]

And then the second time you thought, oh, that's kind of either weird, creepy, wonderful. And then the third time you're like, that's what it is.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Stephen Dubner]

And that. That's the way all technologies are. This is something tangent. But when you get used to things quickly, what the psychologists call habituation, that can be a bad thing too. Yeah. Because you start to lack gratitude for things that are prima facie awesome. I can go pretty much anywhere I want in this country. Turn on the faucet and drink it. That wasn't a hundred years ago. But once you're used to it.

[Dax Shepard]

My obsession is like we'll watch these movies with my daughters, like Little Women. And they're in this big mansion and everyone's dressed so beautifully. And I say, you know, they had to go out in the yard and just remember that however pretty that house is, like I'd live in a mobile home with an indoor toilet.

[Stephen Dubner]

You're a terrible father.

[Dax Shepard]

I'd live in a mansion without you.

[Stephen Dubner]

Can't ruin that fantasy.

[Dax Shepard]

Five minutes ago, the early 1990s. That was five seconds ago.

[Stephen Dubner]

But that's really true.

[Dax Shepard]

Go out in the yard in the.

[Stephen Dubner]

Middle of the night, they're going to be thinking about, well, those dresses aren't very ouse compatible.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, we know those dresses were filthy.

[Monica Padman]

They'Re full of stain.

[Stephen Dubner]

I'm becoming very uncomfortable.

[Monica Padman]

I mean also literally, it's not available every everywhere now. So forget that long ago. Even places in this world don't have it.

[Stephen Dubner]

The trend is good, but it's not everywhere. I feel like we always do this. We whip out the prosperity chart and say, you see things are getting better, but there's still so much anger and suffering and frustration and again, what are.

[Dax Shepard]

The debate about it? Are those the right metrics to evaluate how.

[Stephen Dubner]

We need to talk about something slightly better for five minutes.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Like what show are you watching that you love?

[Stephen Dubner]

I did just watch a show show. I don't watch a lot of tv. I'm sorry. Say I watched your wife show with the rabbi love.

[Dax Shepard]

You did. As it turns out, everybody saw it.

[Stephen Dubner]

It was really good.

[Dax Shepard]

Can I tell you one funny thing about that? If you want to have a funny thing I do. So I go into my GP cuz I have this disgusting dead toenail and.

[Stephen Dubner]

Unrelated to the carbuncle.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, who knows, maybe I will tell me that they're related, but at this point I just have a dead gross toenail. I dremeled it and it looked like maybe I had cancer in it. So I'm finally going to go to get it looked at. He's about to look at my ugly toenail and he goes, goes oh yeah, what do we got here? You tell your wife, she's our shika and I go, you got it. I will he, you know what? I got a guy across the hall, I'm friends with him. I bet I could get you into him right now. He's a podiatrist. I want him to look at it and I Go. Sounds great. You know, I have a referral, and right now I'm going in. He walks me in. I've never met this man. You're not going to believe this. I swear to God it's true. Pull off my sock. Now he starts looking and he goes, by the way, tell your wife she's our shiksa. And I'm like, did you guys talk in the hallway earlier and say, like, she's our shika? Both doctors, while looking at my disgusting toes, stopped to tell me that my wife is their shiksa.

[Stephen Dubner]

All right, so I'll say two things about that. It's pretty weird. Number two, I love the fact that both these doctors are comfortable enough with you to. Rather than go straight to the toenail to go to that.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, it feels like a HIPAA violation. Somehow. I don't actually think it is, but it feels like. Like it feels information should be that way.

[Stephen Dubner]

I once had a doctor say to me, I love that episode you did about Ba Ba Ba Ba ba. And my husband is a huge fan of whatever it was. Hockey, something. She said. I wish I could tell him about it. What do you mean? What are you talking about? She said, well, I'd be uncomfortable telling him. I listened to it because you're a patient and, like, because he might ask me, like, why do you listen to Freakonomics?

[Dax Shepard]

What, do you got a crush on this?

[Stephen Dubner]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

Did you tell her to leave this marriage? Like, this is.

[Stephen Dubner]

Like, this is your husband. You can't tell your husband that you have a patient who makes the radio show.

[Dax Shepard]

That, unfortunately, is also good.

[Stephen Dubner]

I really respected her. She takes patient integrity, confidentiality. All right, where were we? I dragged us onto another.

[Dax Shepard]

I thought that he was light hearted.

[Monica Padman]

You wanted a light.

[Stephen Dubner]

No, that was. Yeah, podiatry.

[Dax Shepard]

That was lighthearted.

[Stephen Dubner]

Toenails.

[Dax Shepard]

Stephen.

[Stephen Dubner]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I love when you come on you love.

[Stephen Dubner]

Literally.

[Dax Shepard]

I want you to do it 100 more times. I guess that's my last question. I want to end on this. Fifteen years into this. Freakonomics Race radio.

[Stephen Dubner]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you have moments where you're like, I can't do it. I kind of need to hear that you have those moments.

[Stephen Dubner]

Okay, short answer. Yes. But this is defining terms. I don't say, I can't do it. It's hard, I think, making anything that you care about. If you're making dinner for your family, if you're starting a company, if you make a thing like you're making here, like I make, if you care about a thing, it's hard. That's Just the way it is. So that's number one. Number two is I love, love, love what I do. And I'm very grateful for that because I know there are a lot of people that do the work they do because they need to earn a living to take care of their family. I respect that more than I respect I get to do what I like. So it's kind of like play. So I feel a little bit guilty about that, but I've gotten over feeling guilty about it. The hard part is, even with all the tools, even with good AI, even with a great staff, even with more experience, et cetera, you have to be on your game all the time. The thing that would worry me is if I stop having ideas, you're only as good as your ideas. This is all I do. I don't have a job. I don't have that many commitments. I'm a good dad and father. But my family is really supported me when I have to go or do or think. Because when you're a writer, you're just in your head a lot. It's all I do. And so I keep having ideas, and I like having ideas. And I think ideas are one of the single best things about us humans. And that the AIs will have facsimiles of it, but not the way we do. I don't know if I'll do it in another 15 years. I do get a little bit bored with certain kinds of episodes. So I'm constantly trying to change things up. I do more series now. I'm trying to do more series that are a little bit more like writing a book, doing a series right now on Handel's Messiah, that piece of music that I happen to love.

[Dax Shepard]

What it sounded like to me is that it's the ideas that keep reigniting you.

[Stephen Dubner]

Yes. You also have a taste for novelty. Everybody does, Right.

[Dax Shepard]

Me in particular. I'm a novelty junkie.

[Stephen Dubner]

With that attitude, you would be a very good golfer. Because most golfers were pretty terrible. We try our best, we get better, but it's really hard. But then you hit that one shot.

[Dax Shepard]

And it buys you 20 more.

[Stephen Dubner]

And you go to bed at night and you just think about how it smelled, how it felt looking at the ball and the light. And then you still were sucky that day. I would argue that's kind of what life is, though. It's like a lot of what we all go through. It's not what we'd want to do. Yeah, but you go through it because you need to. And you're living Your life, supporting your family, et cetera. But then you get hit with the highlight and you're like, yeah. You know, and you feel grateful for it.

[Dax Shepard]

All right, Stephen, this has been a blast. I hope you'll come back. If you've never read Freakonomics, you are a philistine, so go get it. On the 20th anniversary, November 11, you get a new forward, a new jacket. Also, maybe the show's called Better in Person. Probably not. You got Freakonomics Radio, no Stupid questions. You still doing that with. No.

[Stephen Dubner]

We did three years. It was awesome. We rerun the Archive, which is actually in podcast world now. Like, you guys will have this experience one day. A dormant show can still be a great show. Shows not being named like reruns on tv, obviously, but also podcast audiences cycle through pretty fast. We still have about 70 or 80% as many people listen to NSQ, no stupid questions as when it was new.

[Dax Shepard]

Wow.

[Stephen Dubner]

Because people are either they love it, they're coming back, or they discover it. So.

[Dax Shepard]

All right, wonderful. Well, we'll see you again, cuz you're one of our favorites. I hope so.

[Monica Padman]

Thank you. Stay tuned for the Fact check. It's where the party's at.

[Dax Shepard]

Hi.

[Monica Padman]

Hi.

[Stephen Dubner]

How are you?

[Monica Padman]

Good.

[Dax Shepard]

I have a list.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, let's hear it.

[Dax Shepard]

These are just a couple things that happened for Aaron and I's motorcycle trip.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, let's hear it.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, first of all, we had so much fun.

[Monica Padman]

Good.

[Dax Shepard]

We rode a thousand miles in three days. I got a blister.

[Monica Padman]

Yep.

[Dax Shepard]

My carbuncles hurt.

[Monica Padman]

I mean, did you use the soap?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I used it last night.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, good.

[Stephen Dubner]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

MRSA soap.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I used it last night.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, good.

[Dax Shepard]

We. We got. It's a pretty short trip, but we did get to two salad bars.

[Monica Padman]

Fun.

[Dax Shepard]

Shoney's.

[Monica Padman]

Shoney's. I know.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you remember Shoney's? Yes.

[Monica Padman]

Shoney's. Holy. I haven't thought about Shoney's.

[Stephen Dubner]

Holy.

[Dax Shepard]

Shoney's. I know. Something suspicious with Shoney's happened on this trip.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

One was, we pulled over. We're just following the directions, and I see a goddamn Shoney's. And I'm like, I didn't even think they were still around.

[Monica Padman]

Same.

[Dax Shepard]

And I was like, I think they have salad bars. God, it's a great restaurant. They had a full salad bar and a lunch bar.

[Monica Padman]

What's a lunch? Oh, like hot bagel.

[Dax Shepard]

They had a big pan of hamburger patties and onions and a broth. That was delicious.

[Monica Padman]

Wait, the patties were in a broth.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, it was just like this big stainless steel bucket of hamburger patties and broth and onions.

[Monica Padman]

Strange.

[Dax Shepard]

Maybe like hamburger fried steak or so. I don't know what the hell it was, but that salad bar was great. We really enjoyed that. And then I just. Again, we got off in an exit on our way home, and we were. We were heading to Waffle House.

[Monica Padman]

Oh.

[Dax Shepard]

And I looked to my right and I was like, ruby Tuesdays.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Haven't been to Ruby Tuesdays in 40 years.

[Monica Padman]

I think for some reason, that one doesn't get me as excited as Shoney's.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, that's fair. Okay, well, I'm sure there's. We've made a lot more memories at Shoney's.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

But I just was like, oh. When I went 40 years ago at the Twelve Oaks Mall in Novi, Michigan, I think they had a salad bar. So I pulled into Ruby Tuesdays and Eric goes, wow, Ruby Tuesdays. And I go, I think they might have a salad bar. He goes, well, let's check. Sure enough, walk in. Gorgeous salad.

[Monica Padman]

Really?

[Stephen Dubner]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

Wow. I fucking love a salad.

[Monica Padman]

I do love a salad bar. Okay, now, did you. Did you deviate? Ate your salad from Shoney's to Ruby Tuesdays?

[Dax Shepard]

Well, there were some more options at Ruby Tuesdays. The price point's a little different.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

So we did have my sunflower seeds. I love. Okay, more seeds and stuff for me at Ruby Tuesdays, which was great.

[Monica Padman]

Did you get this? Teeny, tiny, small pieces of ham?

[Dax Shepard]

No, but it's funny you'd say that. The. The bucket of ham was the largest bucket on the salad bar.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

It was bigger than the lettuce bucket bowls.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

There was so much ham. And Aaron loves his ham.

[Monica Padman]

I love ham on a salad.

[Dax Shepard]

You do. I don't really mess with ham on.

[Monica Padman]

The salad, but it's in these teeny, tiny pieces. Strips are so cute and chewy.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah. You would have loved it. There was a bucket of ham.

[Monica Padman]

Do you put cheese?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, cheese. Just to remind you it's mush. It's mushrooms.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

It's chopped egg. If they had it right. Neither place had that.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

That's a check mark.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Garbanzo bean, slash whatever. Chickpeas, chickpeas, peas.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Seeds. I already say cheddar cheese. Then blue cheese dressing and the Catalina and a little bit of honey mustard mix all three.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, my. Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. And then several trips.

[Monica Padman]

It's just so. We just have such different tastes in salad bar.

[Dax Shepard]

I know, I know, I know, I know. But that's Great. Because we would never be competing.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

If you got up there and there was, like, minimal blue cheese dressing left, I'd be panicked. You wouldn't care.

[Monica Padman]

No, the only crossover we have is the cheddar cheese and the lettuce. Catalina and lettuce. Although I go light on lettuce. I don't go seeds. You should start at a salad bar.

[Dax Shepard]

These seeds are good for you.

[Monica Padman]

I do put. Yeah, that's the thing. My salad is not a good fruit. A salad bar salad, to me, is not meant to be healthy. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, me neither.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Okay. So that was. That's just one update. We did hit two salad bars in four days, which. That's a great average. Maybe we'll be back for my coffee table book that I'm still working on. The great salad bars of America.

[Monica Padman]

Right? Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

They deserve sh. Okay, well, here's the Shoney's. Ding, ding, ding. So then I go out with Aaron, flew home, and I was there for one more night. So I picked Huey up in my Corvette. I was like, let's have a night on the town in the Corvette.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

It was so fun. We went to Bricktops. We had a delicious meal. And then on the way back, we just were cruising all over Nashville, going through different neighborhoods, and he's showing me things, and then we see this huge palace, this house. It was a palace. I was like, what is that, like, 20 some thousand square feet? And he's like, yeah, at least. And he goes, that's the old CEO of Shoney's. And I'm like, what? That's the CEO of Shoney's?

[Monica Padman]

So sad.

[Dax Shepard]

I thought they were out of business. Business also, did he do a good job?

[Monica Padman]

He did.

[Stephen Dubner]

He did.

[Monica Padman]

Obviously owns a palace, but should the.

[Dax Shepard]

Place be out of business and you own a palace and you're the CEO, doesn't that feel a little.

[Monica Padman]

But it's not out of business, I guess. You went to one virtual.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, yes, I went to one. I found one. And when I posted a picture of it, every single person that comes like, oh, my God, there's still a Shoney's. That's not. Yeah. The biggest sign of success.

[Monica Padman]

Can we look up how many Shoneys are left in the United States?

[Dax Shepard]

That's a great, great search. This guy still has his palace despite whatever happened.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, well, like, I don't know if he doesn't deserve. He gave people a lot of food for a long time.

[Dax Shepard]

Clearly it was very profitable for some, period. Because his house was outrageous. Yeah.

[Stephen Dubner]

58 of them across 15 states.

[Monica Padman]

Are there any here?

[Dax Shepard]

They never were. No. Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, Louisiana, Missouri, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia and West Virginia.

[Monica Padman]

So all the south, they still have them in Georgia.

[Dax Shepard]

Now will you look up what the maximum they had was at their peak. This is 44% of the total. That can't be right. Man. I saw Shoney's everywhere. And this Shoney's just was like. It was a diamond in the rough. Anyways, I loved it. I love sh. It was. It was exactly what you think. We're both 50 and we were the youngest by 30 years. Yeah. In 1998 there were 1834 states. There we go. 1800 down to what you say, 50 something.

[Stephen Dubner]

Yeah, 58.

[Dax Shepard]

So that's not 44%.

[Monica Padman]

I'm still surprised there's even 50.

[Dax Shepard]

So he must have built that palace when they had 1800 locations. Okay. Now second thing that happened was. So the first two days we rode. We rode too much. Really.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Went on the dragon's tail. This is a very famous. There's like a kabillion turns in 22 miles. Maybe the curviest road in America. Huey said that was beautiful. So fun. We got there next day. Kind of a tactical blunder. As a surprise to Aaron, I had looked up if there were any cider mills in the area. There was Granddaddy's apples. So I said, first stop, I have a surprise. We went to the cider mill. Line was so long. Back to your Vista story. It was like it was a good two hour wait.

[Monica Padman]

So I said two hours?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Are you sure? You might have moved faster maybe.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't think so. So I said, let's just go get cider. You could go get cider. What was all the donuts was the line.

[Monica Padman]

Oh.

[Dax Shepard]

So I said, let's go grab some cider and let's go just sit at a picnic table and hope someone's had their fill and then buy the donuts off of them. That was my approach. And it worked. We sat down next to the. This couple and I bought two donut. Well, I bought one donut for $20. I said, I'll give you $20 for a one donut.

[Monica Padman]

My God.

[Dax Shepard]

And they were ethical. So they gave us two, which was nice. Wow. And so at first, the sticker shock of $20 for two donuts. Right. I get it. That's. That's, that's gluttonous.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. No one liked.

[Dax Shepard]

And shameful.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Unless you look at it this way. Get this one. Four day trip of the year two hours in that line. I said to Aaron, for anyone who makes more than $10 an hour, what we did was cheaper.

[Monica Padman]

Yes, but, like, work is shitty, especially if you're probably working at a place where you're getting paid $11 an hour.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

So to spend two of those hours that suck towards one to $2 donuts.

[Dax Shepard]

If you're trading the two hours in line for two hours at work, yes, you'd probably be in line. You'd rather be in line.

[Monica Padman]

You'd rather be in line.

[Dax Shepard]

But I still stand by my math. That's like, that's a good way to look at it.

[Monica Padman]

How come you still stand by even though I poked a good hole?

[Dax Shepard]

Well, you're saying that the hours aren't comparable, but for me, they're, they're worse. It goes the other way. I'd rather do this show for two hours than stand on that line for two hours. And the people who bought the donuts are so happy because they were going to throw those away, and they basically were neutral. They didn't have to pay for their donuts. We got donuts without spending the two hours in line. So I. Everything felt really clean.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. This is kind of, I mean, this is very reminiscent of the Taylor Swift concert when I paid someone to buy my.

[Dax Shepard]

I know, but mine's a little different because I actually didn't add to the line in any way whatsoever because those people had already gone in the line. They had bought their dozen donuts, and I didn't show up and say, will you buy a second thing of donuts? Like, these were going in the trash. So I didn't really impede anyone else's day.

[Monica Padman]

And you still found a workaround to get what you wanted. With money.

[Dax Shepard]

With money.

[Monica Padman]

So this Taylor Swift sweatshirt, that part of it's identical. Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Great.

[Dax Shepard]

I just didn't have to step in front of anyone and get it. Dicey.

[Monica Padman]

He didn't step in front of anyone.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay.

[Monica Padman]

She was already in line.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know how you talked to her if you didn't. You didn't get in line.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, I mean that. But that's, yeah, everything's great.

[Dax Shepard]

You did a great job. I, I, we got these donuts, everything.

[Monica Padman]

Were they good?

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, so good. So we leave there, and I want to go to Looking Glass Falls. And so I put that in my nav on my phone, and I have it on the handlebar. And then we get. And then I add that as a way, like, as a stop along my route to Go to old Edwards Inn, which is much further away in a town called Highland. Okay, so we get to the falls, we take some pictures, everything's great. Go to put my phone, like resume my thing. Well it like turned it off and now I have no cell service cuz we're in the middle of the mountains. So I just start continuing riding. All this to say when I finally got cell service. I think that blunder added about two hours to our ride that day. And it was chilly that day. Oh no, we get all the way to this town. That's a side note. You can't eat. We walk. I don't. I've been debating whether or not I want to complain about this or not. There's a weird thing going on culturally on this trip, which is we went into many, many restaurants that were near empty and they told wait was one hour. And I don't really understand what's going on, but it happened so many times that when we got to Highland, we walked in this restaurant and I said, hi, two, mind you, it's like 3:40pm no one's eating lunch at 3:40pm and she goes, it'll be an hour. And I'm looking at the dining room and I just couldn't resist. There were like three tables taken out of 25 tables. And I said, it's gonna be an hour to sit in the empty dining room.

[Monica Padman]

Uh oh.

[Dax Shepard]

And she goes, there are 10 parties. Parties ahead of you. And then I look around and we are the only people. And I go, where are you hiding the ten parties you did?

[Monica Padman]

You couldn't resist.

[Stephen Dubner]

I couldn't resist.

[Dax Shepard]

There was not 10 parties in the fucking dining room was empty.

[Monica Padman]

Maybe they went down the street and it's like you buzzed.

[Dax Shepard]

They just said, I don't want to work. And I go, that's cool, I get it. I don't want to work a lot of times too. I'll leave. I don't want you to have to work if you don't want to work. But don't lie and then lie again to back up the first sly.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I don't like I was annoyed by this. Can you. Can we say though, potentially maybe they just had one server working and.

[Dax Shepard]

And again, I think one server could have handled a fourth table. There's something. There's. This was pretty consistent.

[Monica Padman]

Really?

[Stephen Dubner]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Left a bad taste in my mouth.

[Monica Padman]

Weird.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, it was very weird. I don't know what was going on. It was. I think what's going on is it's a really busy time of Year in that part of the country. A lot of people are going to look at the leaves turn.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Even though they weren't turned at all. So I think they're overwhelmed.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't know what's going on. Forget that. Anyways, point is, by the time we got back to the hotel.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

We had ridden so long and it was cold, my hands were numb and the whole nine yards. So I woke up on the next morning and I'm like, I gotta tell Aaron. I, I don't want to ride today.

[Monica Padman]

How did you feel? I.

[Dax Shepard]

Identity wise, it's challenging. Yeah, it's challenging. But I was like, oh, this is an opportunity for growth. Because the old me is like, you're riding every day and you're riding hundreds of miles a day because that's what you came to do. But I. It was Sunday, there was football on. And I text Aaron and I said, I hate to say this, but I think I want to just lay around all day today. And he said, I'm so glad you just sent this text. I was like panicked. You're going to want to ride more. We needed a, a break. Right. So then I went online and I found a massage and I wanted us to have. I just was lazy. I didn't want to try to book two different appointments. That felt like because everything was so busy, I just went to couples massage because that way I know we can get a massage at the same time.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So I book a couple's massage for 7pm on Sunday night.

[Monica Padman]

Great.

[Dax Shepard]

I want to say the name of the place.

[Monica Padman]

Romantic.

[Dax Shepard]

Can I say the name of the place because it was so great. The name of the place in Asheville. If you're there, you must try it. Blazing Lotus Healing House.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, nice. Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. So I also wrote in the comments, hey, it's two. It's two dudes. So we don't need to be in a couple's room if that's easier or harder. Whatever. So we arrive at the thing and I say, I don't know if you saw my thing. She goes, yeah. So we have two different rooms. I go, okay, let's do that. And she said, but we have a male and a female massage therapist. And I said, I'll take the dude. I go with Philip and he's incredible. If you're going to go get Philip, he's insanely good. I, it, it was one of the best massages ever. I was so lucky. But while I'm laying there getting massage, I was just thinking in my head about people getting Couples massages. And I was thinking, I can't imagine. Oh, I know I'm not. But. But I'm. I'm on the far edge of this spectrum. Iron recognize. So then I got curious. You don't think when there's a. When a. When a man and a woman go get a couple's massage and the dude's laying there getting a massage from a woman, and then his wife's getting a massage by a man. I don't think that man is ever getting jealous or worried that there's a man stroking his wife right next to him.

[Monica Padman]

I don't know.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't think so. Or they wouldn't do it.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

And so then I just started thinking about that, like, oh, this is a very interesting thing that this happens. Couples massage. Gosh, isn't it? A man's watching or is next to his wife getting rubbed by another man, and they don't care at all. And then it was like, okay, well, why don't they care? A. Mostly probably because they're just focused on the fact that they're getting.

[Monica Padman]

Well, they're there. Like, I feel like they're like, nothing's gonna happen. I'm right here.

[Dax Shepard]

Truly. Yes.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

But it's framing, so that's fine. If a man rubs your wife and gives her lots of. Of pleasure.

[Monica Padman]

Sure.

[Dax Shepard]

If it's her coworker, you're going to have a lot of problems. If it's a friend, this is such. If it's a friend, you think it's a stretch. The activity is objectively the same.

[Monica Padman]

I know, but the judgment isn't about the activity. It's about what it means. It's. It's intim. A massage is not weirdly. Even though it's so pleasurable, it's not. Not intimate.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Monica Padman]

And if it crosses into intimacy, it's actually very uncomfortable. Except for that one time. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Let's be honest.

[Monica Padman]

If it's a co worker, but let's.

[Dax Shepard]

Say the co worker has not attracted to your wife.

[Monica Padman]

They're not going to put themselves in the position to do that unless they are.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I'm trying. I'm not being a good. I'm not doing a good job making my point. The activity is objectively the same.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. The rubbing.

[Dax Shepard]

Rubbing muscles with lots of.

[Monica Padman]

Sure.

[Dax Shepard]

And so if you have a problem with one version, again, you've got to say, oh, he's attracted to her. Where it becomes a problem. Or they're not a professional. Or, or, or, or, Or.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

It's just it. You Recognize what I'm saying about the, the, the, the fragility of the mind, that in this, this scenario, it's totally fine. I don't even think about it. But if it's anyone but this person, the activity itself is. Is now object. Objectionable.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Because of the nuance of what it means. There's no safety. Yes. There's no professionalism. There's no safety. The person's not sitting. Even if it's not a couple's massage, even if it's just a woman goes and gets a massage from a man, husband isn't there.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Monica Padman]

They probably don't all.

[Dax Shepard]

It's like a compartment we have in our head where we go, like, yeah, it's totally fine if a stranger rubs my wife's naked body in this context.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Because there's, there's boundaries around that context. Whereas if it's a co worker.

[Dax Shepard]

That's a great. Isn't you, like, the term co worker crazy?

[Monica Padman]

It is so crazy. Like, yeah, that's like they're, they're pushing a boundary. The, the massage therapist at Glenn Lotus.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, close.

[Monica Padman]

Is. Is, you know, like, they, they could get sued. Like, there are, there's boundaries, but the.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure, they could get sued, but you got to make all things equal so the coworker is not attracted to your wife.

[Monica Padman]

You can't make it equal. This is, this is the nuance. This is exactly what I'm talking about the, the most. The physical motion is the same.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

But what's behind it is not the same.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. So then. Exactly. So let's go through it, because you got to be specific. So what's the issue with the co worker and not the person? The massage?

[Monica Padman]

Intimacy. Emotional intimacy.

[Dax Shepard]

But you're assuming that there's like, Erica from our pod could give me a massage. There would be nothing going on at all. Like, we would all agree.

[Monica Padman]

Well, I don't know that we'd all agree. I'd be honest. I'll be honest.

[Stephen Dubner]

If.

[Monica Padman]

If all of a sudden it's like Erica's going to give Dax a massage.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I think we'd all be like, why? Why?

[Dax Shepard]

But that. Right. In this scenario, you.

[Monica Padman]

If it's a physical therapist or something. Friend. If it's a physical therapist. Friend.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

That's different to me because that is like medical.

[Dax Shepard]

I know, but it's funny because we, we've like, again, it's just a very arbitrary bracket we assign, like, because, because the person is a professional. Which means what? They went to massage school and have a. They're in a business of touching my naked partners. Fine. Because of X, Y and Z. They're, they're trained.

[Monica Padman]

Well, not just because they're trained. Because they have stuff to lose. There are parameters around that. They're. They work for a business or own a business.

[Dax Shepard]

I guess what I'm saying is if, if you could establish the co workers rubbing your wife because he's horny for her. I got, I get it. You got a problem. You got a problem if the coworker's dispassionately doing the exact same thing that the massage therapist is. It's funny that that's a big difference.

[Monica Padman]

Would never, that's, that's never happened. That a coworker gives a non passionate nothing.

[Dax Shepard]

I couldn't get you. I couldn't get you on board.

[Monica Padman]

Unless the coworker is getting his massage therapy be licensed. That's a situation where it's like I have to practice. I have to get so many hours. Yeah, that's different. But this regular at office. Two co workers. No.

[Dax Shepard]

Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare. We are supported by skims.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, we're going to talk about underwear for a minute because skims has completely changed my relationship with intimates. You know how you kind of don't realize something's been bothering you until all of a sudden the solution is there. That's me with underwear. I used to grab whatever multi pack was on sale and I don't know, it would lose its shape after a couple weeks. But then I tried skims and suddenly I realized underwear could actually make you feel good all day long. I have many of the skims underwear styles and they're all great. I love the thick.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure.

[Monica Padman]

Because they are still comfortable.

[Dax Shepard]

I can imagine they'll give you a ride you didn't ask for.

[Monica Padman]

But skims, the quality is just wonderful. The colors are great. Even when you're picking out like a fun underwear in the morning and you pick like a nice bright color just makes your mood better. The ones I really like are in the fits everybody collection because the fabric is just different and so soft.

[Dax Shepard]

Shop Monica's favorite bras and [e-mail] after you place your order, be sure to let them know we sent you select podcast in the survey and be sure to sel our show in the drop down menu that follows. But again, I think what you believe you're objecting to is this coworker wants to rub my wife. But I'm asking for the scenario to be the same as the masseuse. Which is the coworker doesn't want to rub your wife.

[Monica Padman]

Then why is he.

[Dax Shepard]

Because your wife asked him and they have a massage table at work. I don't know why.

[Monica Padman]

But this is. But, but Dax, I.

[Dax Shepard]

You're just saying that couldn't happen without those other things.

[Stephen Dubner]

But it could.

[Dax Shepard]

How? Because I rubbed lots of people's shoulders and stuff. All right, well, I really thought I was going to have something here, but I don't. I think it's just really funny that it's fine to have a dude rub your naked wife in. In one context and then. And then it's completely objectionable in another. I think is funny.

[Monica Padman]

Yes. Cuz it is. It's. I hear what you're saying, but the difference is boundaries and no boundaries. And that is real. Those are real human.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I just don't think people then get specific about what that means. What are the boundaries that are being crossed? Is it that no one can touch your wife? No. Because in this scenario they can. Is it. They're attracted to my wife and want to rub her sexually. Yeah. That's a huge objection. But Jasmine, your friend could give you a massage and none of those things would be on the table.

[Monica Padman]

Well, he's not.

[Dax Shepard]

Because he's gay.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. He has. There's no but. But even. Okay, so. Yes. Like he isn't attracted to me. So that feels kind of fine. It also still kind of doesn't. Like. I think I would be like feel a little uncomfortable.

[Dax Shepard]

You want some anonymity when someone's. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Seeing you nude. It's. Nudity is best done anonymously. Is either for a partner for the most part. I mean, this is not like in, you know. Or for. Yeah. Like.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Pleasure. In an anonymous way.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I just think. I just think if you were the alien in the spaceship and you saw this man, like watch his wife's getting rubbed by a stranger next to him and he's completely at peace and he's getting rubbed by through groovy. And then he walks in his house and the neighbors giving. And then he. And then he goes crazy immers the guy. I think if you're the alien, you might just be like, oh, this is really funny.

[Monica Padman]

I guess. I mean this is a ding ding, ding. Because I had friends in town from Georgia.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Which was really, really fun. And one of the hair people. Yes, one of the people. Gina. Gina is my hair plan massages partner. So we've been doing hair play and massages since we were 11.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

If we're ever like Together we make sure that happens.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And it is like, you know, everyone always has this, like, your friends don't like it. Yeah. Or they like it, but they're like, I think they think it's kinky.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And it is always really funny because it is, it is so not like it is.

[Stephen Dubner]

Right.

[Monica Padman]

So it is so benign. It's nothing. Yeah. So I guess in some ways this is sort of what you're talking about. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

But it's different when it's a man and a woman. If they're heterosexual, like me and Gina are heterosexual. So there is something about like, it's fine.

[Dax Shepard]

But I don't, I, I, I, I just don't think everyone's attracted to each other because they're opposite sex. I mean, it's a very. You are tiny.

[Monica Padman]

You say that about everyone. You say I'm attracted to everyone. It's definitely not a tiny. I think most, most men who see a woman naked mostly could are going to be like.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I don't think that's the case for women.

[Monica Padman]

I agree. Yeah, I agree.

[Dax Shepard]

So that's why, so I'm not worried that my wife's attracted to the massage therapist.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. And I don't think verse really where a woman, a wife is all that worried about their husband going to, to a massage therapist woman.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. Which is ironic because that's who should be nervous. My example is because as you just said, a guy will take a blow job from a billy goat. A man shouldn't be that worried about his wife getting a massage because in general, the wife's not just randomly attracted to every guy that would be rubbing her.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And I'm, I'm. This whole thing started with me being the man dealing with your wife's naked getting rubbed by another man. And you, you don't care. And you should probably not care too much, period, because I don't think most women are going to get horned up over a random dude giving them a massage.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, but exactly. So it's a coworker is not a random dude.

[Dax Shepard]

And, but I bet your wife's not attracted to 99% of her co workers.

[Monica Padman]

Well, if she's getting a massage from a coworker, she probably the one she's not attracted to.

[Dax Shepard]

I said it can't be about attraction. The massage can't be.

[Monica Padman]

There's no.

[Dax Shepard]

Because then you have a real problem. Your, your wife is engaging with someone she' attracted to in an intimate activity. Yeah, but my scenario is she's not attracted to the co worker. He just doesn't have this title. So you make a big dog. We're done with it. We're done with it.

[Monica Padman]

Wow. Wow. I guess that was it. Oh, but hair play and massages were f. We didn't get to massages because it was too late.

[Dax Shepard]

I understand the hair play, but what are the parameters of the massage? Do you guys get bare naked in life?

[Monica Padman]

No, not bare. Bare naked normally.

[Dax Shepard]

Is it full body massage?

[Monica Padman]

No, just back.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Back massage.

[Dax Shepard]

Full body changes it a little bit, right?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Give your friends. Working on your butt cheek. Working on your glute.

[Monica Padman]

She is a physical therapist, so, like, I would maybe let her do that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, you should. And she should do it to me.

[Monica Padman]

It's been a minute since I get. I think shirts are off.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wow.

[Monica Padman]

But you're laying down, so no one's. It's not. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wow. Yeah, this is a bit. I know.

[Monica Padman]

Because you're laying down as if you are in a massage.

[Dax Shepard]

Of course.

[Monica Padman]

And then we sit on the butt.

[Dax Shepard]

Sit on the butt. Is there lotion involved? No, it's a dry rub.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, it's dry.

[Dax Shepard]

It's a Memphis dry rub.

[Monica Padman]

Are the shirts off now? I'm. Now I must be off.

[Dax Shepard]

You can't. Oh, might be a shirt on massage.

[Monica Padman]

It might.

[Dax Shepard]

God, you can't even remember. I'd be so hurt if I were her. Should I like, if you like. Oh, yeah, I would be hurt.

[Monica Padman]

No, I think his shirts off.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, it's gotta be shirts. What's the point?

[Monica Padman]

First? And hair play is the.

[Dax Shepard]

The best part.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, it's the best part.

[Dax Shepard]

So you guys did find time to play with each other's hair. And how does that work? It's a 10 minute chunk or 15. Or is it honor?

[Monica Padman]

It's honor.

[Dax Shepard]

No, you need a timer.

[Monica Padman]

I know you wouldn't like that, but. And sometimes I do stress out about it a little bit. Like, what if I don't get. What if I don't reciprocate the way I'm supposed to because I have not paying attention. Normally I go first, you receive first.

[Stephen Dubner]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, explain why is alcohol. That's the system.

[Monica Padman]

I don't know. It's just like something. It's just what we've been doing.

[Dax Shepard]

Muscle memory.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. And so I am like, oh, I wonder how long it's gone. So I know what to do.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

But I normally look at the clock that go.

[Dax Shepard]

Just look at the clock before it starts.

[Monica Padman]

And then it's so fun. And we embrush brushes and there's brushes.

[Dax Shepard]

Braid like, you'll do crazy afterwards. Is it like all super big?

[Monica Padman]

Not really.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh. I just picture everyone's hair like this afterwards. Like ratting it and twisting it and combing.

[Monica Padman]

Feels so good. Yeah, it feels so good.

[Dax Shepard]

But even that. That's a distinction. Right? Like, I think people would be jealous. Like, it can feel so good and not be sexual.

[Stephen Dubner]

Of course.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. But I think people think anything feel they're triggered.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, yeah, I understand that. That's true. You it think. But again, a massage is like that. A regular massage is like that at a place. It's feels so good. But there's zero. I mean, again, there are some exceptions, but zero sexual feelings or intimacy. And we're chitchatting during hair play and massages. Okay, so we're catching.

[Dax Shepard]

Time's flying.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. Time is flying.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you think you did the same amount she did to you or a little less?

[Monica Padman]

I just think maybe you're worried.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. This is your donuts.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I just think our.

[Stephen Dubner]

Our.

[Dax Shepard]

Our framing of things is just so fun. Arbitrary.

[Monica Padman]

It is interesting that. I mean, it is a strange sim. Because I did have that thought. The same thought, sort of. Which is like. It's so funny that they all think they can't imagine a world in which our hair play and massages isn't kinky.

[Stephen Dubner]

Right.

[Monica Padman]

Like they can't imagine that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

That they think it's weird.

[Dax Shepard]

So. Yeah. And great. So we bond on that.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm regularly just. Like, I can't grasp the level of jealousy everyone else experiences. Like, I just can't find purchase in it.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And then I'm always just looking at the. At these, like, what I think are mental hiccups or inconsistencies with the whole thing. It's just like.

[Stephen Dubner]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

You'd be totally fine with this.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. It is context, though, again, that's why I think I'm like you. You just need more information to know whether jealousy should happen or not. When it's two heterosexual females who've been doing this since they were 11.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

I mean, her husband, Robbie. Shout out Robbie. He doesn't care.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, but not. But he's sitting in the corner with this, playing pool. Pocket, pocket, pocket, pool, pocket, pool, pocket.

[Monica Padman]

No, he knows it's nothing.

[Dax Shepard]

Is it kinky if he plays pocket pool while this is happening?

[Monica Padman]

Yes. That takes it up to a different level.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, well, would you let a co.

[Stephen Dubner]

Worker check your prostate?

[Dax Shepard]

Well, you're my coworker, so I guess you're asking if I would let you check my prostate.

[Stephen Dubner]

Let's go.

[Dax Shepard]

If you could accomplish what needed to be accomplished. And I needed to know. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

You would not.

[Dax Shepard]

I would if. If I needed to know.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. And he knew when you let me. And that's a better comp because. Because we're two heterosexual people.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. No, I would have to. I would have to run that by my wife.

[Stephen Dubner]

Exactly.

[Monica Padman]

And she would say no.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, no. If I again, let.

[Monica Padman]

This is not dis on her.

[Dax Shepard]

No, what I'm saying is if I needed to find out if my prostate was big or I. Because then next steps needed to be taken.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And you, for whatever reason, you knew just as well as my doctor, if it was enlarged and we were stuck somewhere and I called her and said, I gotta find out if I gotta go to the emergency room. The only way is Monica has to put her finger in my butt. But don't worry, she knows what size the prostate.

[Monica Padman]

See, again, there's so much. A lot of context. But.

[Dax Shepard]

But. But what I do know about her is if I needed that to be done, she wouldn't care who did it as long as the thing I needed to get done got done.

[Monica Padman]

I. I don't know about that. And it's not anything to do. It's nothing about her. It's just she is. Oh, it's okay for her to have boundaries. It's okay for her to say, you know what? I'm actually not all that comfortable with that. I'd prefer you go to the emergency room.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. But that's not an option. That's why I painted it very spec. No, it's everything. I'm not calling her to say, hey, hon, can Monica put her finger in my butt for fun? That's a call I'm not making. And she's not saying yes to.

[Monica Padman]

I know, but now you made a scenario that's, like, not a real scenario.

[Dax Shepard]

No, it is a real scenario. The whole reason I just let a man put his finger up my butt right now is because I had to.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, but he's a doctor.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. I had to have that done. And if nobody was around to do the thing I had to have. Have done.

[Monica Padman]

I know, but, Dax, my point is that scenario, you. You're saying right now nobody's around.

[Stephen Dubner]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

To have something done that you need done, which is put a finger up your butt.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

Is. Is not real. Like.

[Dax Shepard]

No, it's not real.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. We will never be in that situation where you can't get to a hospital and only a female coworker is with you. My.

[Dax Shepard]

My point is, if Something had to be done for my health that involved you or any female co worker was the only person that do it. Kristen would say yes, as I would too. Like, if you have to have something done, I can get over my jealousy.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

For you to be healthy and safe.

[Monica Padman]

Sure. I mean, massage is a little different.

[Dax Shepard]

No, but we went to. Yeah, we moved to prostate, which I just had to have done. But not because I want. Wanted to.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. And not because he wanted to put his finger in my butt.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. He's a professional, so there's boundaries there.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Anyway, let's do facts.

[Stephen Dubner]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

Now I'm not gonna do what I did last time this happened, where I presented the facts and everyone in the whole world list listening, including you, was like, these are really good. These are really intricate. You really. You really did it this time.

[Dax Shepard]

A real deep dive. I don't know what got India, but it was a deep dive.

[Monica Padman]

And it turned out it was Sophia.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. God bless Sophia.

[Monica Padman]

Sophia is back on the facts today.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wow. So this for both of us will be illuminating.

[Monica Padman]

Yes. And. And she's better than me at this, so they're going to be good. Okay, what is Confederate money and how much was it worth? Answer, slash, correction. Confederate money or Confederate States dollar, was paper currency issued by the Confederacy between 1861 and 1865 to fund the Civil War. It was backed only by the future payment after Southern victory. It started out roughly the same value as US dollar, but by 1860, 63, it was worth US$0.06 per US dollar, and by 1865, it was worthless.

[Stephen Dubner]

Oh.

[Monica Padman]

Today, given rarity, it could be worth much more.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, more than valueless. That seems like a low bar, right? Yeah. Or less than 6 cents on it.

[Monica Padman]

Right. And it probably depends on where you are. What. Where that would be worth something or not.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

Who's that? We have. Who's the guy we have on who collects the hair, the presidential hair?

[Dax Shepard]

Cohen.

[Monica Padman]

Jared Cohen.

[Dax Shepard]

Jared Cohen.

[Monica Padman]

Jared Cohen.

[Dax Shepard]

He might have some Confederate money.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. He's a collector of history.

[Dax Shepard]

It's. Boy, how do I say this? I do not want to offend the south, but it's adjacent to people who collect Nazi memorabilia. It's haunting. It's so powerful. My whole point is, like, if you walk into someone's house and they have all these Confederate dollars, do you go like, oh, is this.

[Monica Padman]

This person?

[Dax Shepard]

Or do they like. Or were they an anti abolitionist?

[Monica Padman]

You need to learn more. You need to have more conversations with that person because. Yeah, they could be just a huge history buff.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Like I could own some Nazi plates and it would not make me in any way a Nazi or someone who thought anything that Hitler was about was good.

[Monica Padman]

This is so complicated. Yes. Because yes, you could definitely own that as like, whoa. This is. Is like a piece of world history. How wild.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Like, and it's a piece of.

[Dax Shepard]

The most dramatic chapter in modern history.

[Monica Padman]

Horrific. The most horrific. Yeah. But here's where things get tricky is like if a Jewish friend comes over and you have these like Nazi plates displayed. Yeah. And you're like, oh, this is just. Cuz I'm a history buff.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. I also have Genghis Khan belt over there.

[Monica Padman]

Right. And they probably would be like, okay. Like they would probably be able to see that as, as, as truth.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

But they are not going to be able to look at that and not feel pain.

[Dax Shepard]

Yep. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And same with Confederate dollars. So. You know, because this goes back to the whole Confederate flag.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And it's like, okay, I understand that to you it doesn't mean that, but to so many people and to. And it did mean that.

[Dax Shepard]

I accept both realities.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And there's a, there's a third, which is there are a lot of people that love the Confederate flag because they are displaying their racism.

[Monica Padman]

Sure.

[Dax Shepard]

Like that's definitely happening.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

When I drive more now through certain areas.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Like I know what they're saying.

[Monica Padman]

Yep.

[Dax Shepard]

And there are some people like the hunting, fishing, South, Bride of the South. I'm really believe them.

[Monica Padman]

I believe them too. But that's exactly, that's my point. I have a. One of my best friends, I, I think struggled with this for a little bit. He's southern and he is, he's like a hunter, fisher. Also like a professor. He has a PhD. He's very introspective and smart.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And so I think he was struggling with this for a while because he's like, no, it represents this. But he did come around. Like, but no.

[Dax Shepard]

And again, he barely got there and he's a professor. Some people don't.

[Monica Padman]

Some people don't do that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And I wish they would. I guess I wish they would. But. But yeah, it's. Anyhow. Okay. Did printing money in the US start during the Civil War? First, federally issued paper currency, the greenbacks, was introduced during the Civil War in 1861 under the legal Tender Act. Paper money dated as far back as 1690, but not on the national scale. So money was largely coinage or banknotes before 1861. The US dollar in coin form originated in 1792. But yes, nationwide Legal tender notes began by the treasury during the Civil War. Okay, who wrote the Grant? Twain, Adams, Hamilton biographies. And when were they written? Grant 2017 by Ron Chernow.

[Dax Shepard]

We love them. I love them.

[Monica Padman]

Twain.

[Dax Shepard]

I love them.

[Monica Padman]

2005 by Ron Powers.

[Dax Shepard]

No, that's not the one I'm listening to.

[Monica Padman]

Well, we are listening to the new one now.

[Stephen Dubner]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Which is Ron Cherno.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, but this is an old one.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay.

[Monica Padman]

Adams 2001 by McCullough. Hamilton 2004 by Ron Chernow.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, so Hamilton's Chernow and McCullough's Adams.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, wow. This is an important one. When did humans stop eating poop? Okay, answer. Can't find reliable data.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, that was my hunch. Hard to know.

[Monica Padman]

Really hard to know.

[Dax Shepard]

We'd need a cave painting of a man eating a pile of poop that had just fallen out of another human.

[Monica Padman]

And then the next painting where it does. He's not doing that.

[Dax Shepard]

There's a circle with a line through it. Don't do this, you sicko.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, okay. Do rabbits poop 200 to 300 times a day? What is the average number of time animal poops a day? I mean, I already did this on a previous fact, so turns out I am pretty good at this, right?

[Dax Shepard]

Cuz now we're just now rehashing.

[Monica Padman]

But I'll go through them again. Rabbits 200 to 300. Moose 13 to 21. Birds 12 to 40. Geese every 12 minutes.

[Dax Shepard]

Gross.

[Monica Padman]

Penguins up to 140 times a day.

[Dax Shepard]

I wonder if the geese and birds have to be poop that much evolutionarily to keep themselves light. Oh, as we know, their bones are hollow. So they can fly.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, maybe.

[Dax Shepard]

Like you can't carry around a pound of dong.

[Monica Padman]

That's true.

[Dax Shepard]

Dong dong.

[Monica Padman]

Okay, fun fact. Blue whales supposedly excrete 200 liters of poop in one single bowel movement.

[Dax Shepard]

200 liters?

[Monica Padman]

How much is that?

[Dax Shepard]

Too many gallons?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Stephen Dubner]

52.5.8 gallons.

[Dax Shepard]

In one poop.

[Monica Padman]

Oh my gross. God, that's disgusting. No wonder the ocean is polluted.

[Dax Shepard]

When you were gone and we did a couple armchairs, Aaron and I. One of the guys was a submarine.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, worker, huh?

[Dax Shepard]

Submariner, huh? And yeah, they squirt their tanks out.

[Monica Padman]

Their waste tanks into the ocean.

[Dax Shepard]

They have to. They. They don't. They don't come up for six months.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, right, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And he said there is a feeding frenzy outside the E. And I bet there is when these blue whales let loose too.

[Monica Padman]

Ah, gross. Who coined the term illusion of fluency? Wu Kong on 2022 Guest Woo Woo. Kong on Kong.

[Dax Shepard]

I have.

[Monica Padman]

She was, was so playful and fun.

[Dax Shepard]

We loved her.

[Monica Padman]

Yes. Cognitive psychologist and professor of psychology at Yale. She talks about allure of fluency can trick us into thinking we can do something simply because it felt easy which leads to the illusion of fluency. Yeah, she was cool. Go back in the archive, listen to her.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, she's great.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, that was a good episode. And that's it for Sophia's facts on Stephen Dubner.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, great, great, great, great. Good job, Sophia. Yeah, good job reporting them, Monica.

[Monica Padman]

Thank you, Rob.

[Dax Shepard]

Good job, Good job.

[Monica Padman]

All right.

[Dax Shepard]

I love you.

[Monica Padman]

Love you.

[Dax Shepard]

Follow Armchair Expert on the Wonry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short [e-mail] survey.