Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard: Episode Summary featuring Dr. Sunita Puri on Defiance

Release Date: January 22, 2025

Introduction

In this compelling episode of Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard, host Dax Shepard is joined by co-host Monica Padman and special guest Dr. Sunita Puri, an award-winning professor at Cornell University and an expert in organizational psychology. Dr. Puri discusses her insightful new book, "Defy the Power of No: In a World that Demands Yes," delving deep into the psychology of defiance, obedience, and the intricate balance between adhering to authority and standing up for one's values.

Book Discussion: "Defy the Power of No"

Dr. Sunita Puri introduces her book, which explores the concept of defiance in various contexts, from everyday interpersonal interactions to high-stakes environments like law enforcement and the military. She emphasizes the societal pressure to comply and the often overlooked importance of defying when actions conflict with personal values.

Dr. Sunita Puri [24:06]: "I think a better definition of defiance, considering everything that we've spoken about, is that to defy is simply to act in accordance with your own true values, your core values, when there is pressure to do otherwise."

Defiance and Obedience: Psychological Perspectives

The conversation shifts to classic psychological experiments that illuminate human behavior under authority. Dr. Puri recounts Stanley Milgram's infamous obedience experiments, highlighting how ordinary individuals complied with authority figures even when it meant inflicting harm on others.

Dr. Sunita Puri [09:12]: "He was like, I really thought this was something unique about German culture. But everybody is doing this."

She also touches upon the Stanford Prison Experiment, underscoring how situational factors and assigned roles can drastically influence behavior, often overriding personal morals.

Personal Experiences of Dr. Sunita Puri

Dr. Puri shares personal anecdotes that shaped her understanding of defiance and compliance. She recounts an incident where she was unable to refuse a doctor's recommendation for an unnecessary CT scan, despite her professional knowledge about the risks involved.

Dr. Sunita Puri [19:42]: "I had the knowledge in that situation, and I should have said no. And yet I just couldn't say no."

This experience became a pivotal moment in her research, leading her to investigate the barriers that prevent individuals from acting against their better judgments.

The Five Stages of Defiance

Dr. Puri outlines a structured approach to understanding and practicing defiance, which she describes as a five-stage process:

1. Tension: Recognizing the initial discomfort when faced with a request that conflicts with personal values.
2. Acknowledgment: Admitting to oneself the presence of this tension rather than ignoring it.
3. Vocalization: Expressing discomfort to another person, making it harder to rationalize or backtrack.
4. Boundary Setting: Clearly stating the inability to comply with the request.
5. Final Act of Defiance: Taking decisive action to uphold one's values.

Dr. Sunita Puri [27:07]: "These are five stages of defiance. The first one... you feel some kind of tension... Then you acknowledge that feeling, and then you vocalize it to someone else."

Defiance as a Skill

Contrary to popular belief, defiance isn't an inherent personality trait but a learned skill. Dr. Puri emphasizes the importance of training and practice in developing the ability to defy when necessary.

Dr. Sunita Puri [27:03]: "If I can do it right with the upbringing I had, I think most people can learn how to defy. It's just you have to learn that skill set."

She suggests that through anticipation, visualization, and rehearsal, individuals can strengthen their capacity to stand up for their values without succumbing to undue pressure.

Defiance in Various Contexts

The discussion broadens to examine how defiance plays out in different spheres:

• Policing: Dr. Puri reflects on the George Floyd case, focusing not just on the officers involved but on the rookie officers who struggled with the ethical dilemma presented.

  Dr. Sunita Puri [17:48]: "What would I have done in that situation with George Floyd with a police officer wearing a gun? That's how difficult this is."

• Military: Sharing stories from military personnel, Dr. Puri illustrates the extreme pressures soldiers face to comply with orders, even when they conflict with personal ethics.

  Dr. Sunita Puri [50:21]: "He's like, I'm not gonna be that police officer."

Tools and Strategies for Defiance

Dr. Puri introduces practical tools to cultivate defiance:

• Anticipation and Training: Preparing for potential high-pressure situations through mental rehearsal can mitigate the fear and anxiety associated with defiance.

  Dr. Sunita Puri [38:07]: "Training aspect is so key... anticipation is so key."

• Defiance Compass: A framework comprising three key questions to guide decision-making aligned with personal values:

  1. Who am I? Identifying core values.
  2. What type of situation is this? Assessing safety and effectiveness of defiance.
  3. What would a person like me do? Aligning actions with values.

  Dr. Sunita Puri [66:32]: "These three questions came from James Marsh, who's a sociologist... they help us reduce the gap between intention and action."

Challenges and Hierarchies of Defiance

The conversation delves into the societal hierarchies that influence the ease or difficulty of defying authority. Dr. Puri discusses the "defiance hierarchy," where individuals from marginalized or less dominant groups face greater consequences for defiance compared to those from privileged backgrounds.

Dr. Sunita Puri [42:22]: "It's what I call the defiance hierarchy. Some people are allowed to defy, even rewarded for it. And others, they have more costs, there's more severe consequences."

Examples from Dr. Puri's Work

Dr. Puri shares poignant examples from her research and interactions:

• Parental Defiance: She recounts witnessing her mother's unexpected act of defiance against a group of aggressive boys, a moment that deeply impacted her understanding of strength and protection.

  Dr. Sunita Puri [55:29]: "And that does give quite a bit of hope."

• Rookie Officer's Story: Highlighting the internal conflict of a young officer who refused to follow unethical orders, leading to personal and professional repercussions but ultimately fostering a more ethical policing approach.

  Dr. Sunita Puri [52:30]: "He knew with all due respect, I knew that we didn't have any standing, and we shouldn't have gone in."

Conclusion

The episode wraps up with reflections on the importance of defiance as a proactive, value-driven force in society. Dr. Puri encourages listeners to view defiance not as an act of rebellion but as an essential alignment with one's core values. By redefining defiance and equipping oneself with the necessary tools, individuals can navigate complex social and professional landscapes while maintaining personal integrity.

Dr. Sunita Puri [64:30]: "Understanding that defiance isn't just for the brave or the extraordinary. It's available and it's necessary for all of us."

Dax Shepard and Monica Padman commend Dr. Puri for her enlightening perspectives, underscoring the episode's central theme: the empowering potential of defying unethical demands and upholding one's values in a world that often pressures conformity.

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