Susan Morrison (on Lorne Michaels)

Summary

Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard - Episode Summary: Susan Morrison on Lorne Michaels

Podcast Information:

• Title: Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
• Host: Dax Shepard
• Guest: Susan Morrison
• Episode Title: Susan Morrison (on Lorne Michaels)
• Release Date: April 30, 2025

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Introduction and Guest Background

In this episode, host Dax Shepard engages in an insightful conversation with Susan Morrison, the articles editor at The New Yorker. Susan discusses her latest book, Lorne: The Man Who Invented Saturday Night Live, offering a deep dive into the life and legacy of Lorne Michaels, the iconic creator of Saturday Night Live (SNL).

Notable Quote:

• Susan Morrison: "It is of SNL and of Lorne Michaels and we get all these like fun stories and it's just cool. And he's an institution." [00:29]

Susan Morrison’s Journey in Journalism

Susan elaborates on her career trajectory, highlighting her early work with Lorne Michaels on The New Show, a short-lived primetime variety show in the 1980s. This experience laid the foundation for her future endeavors in journalism, particularly her role in founding Spy Magazine, a satirical publication that critiqued the media landscape of the 1980s.

Notable Quote:

• Susan Morrison: "Spy magazine was kind of modeled on Private Eye, the British Satiric weekly. ... We reported Trump's bankruptcies. We went after the Times and we had a column on CAA and Mike Ovitz." [08:06]

Insights into Lorne Michaels and SNL

The conversation delves into Lorne Michaels' enduring influence on comedy and television. Susan discusses Michaels' unique management style, his emphasis on resilience and adaptability, and how his upbringing and personal experiences shaped his approach to producing SNL. She draws parallels between Michaels and other long-standing institutions like The New Yorker, emphasizing their cultural significance in New York.

Notable Quotes:

• Susan Morrison: "When Harold Ross started the magazine 100 years ago, he called it the Comic Weekly. ... She really wanted to enliven it." [11:08]
• Monica Padman: "He makes sure he takes a lot of time off in swanky locales. ... He likes to treat them just like a regular room temperature kind of conversation." [20:10]

The Evolution of SNL Under Michaels

Susan provides a comprehensive overview of the evolution of SNL, detailing the challenges Michaels faced in the early years, including high turnover and the pressures of maintaining relevancy. She discusses pivotal moments, such as the departure of key cast members like Chevy Chase and Bill Murray, and how Michaels adapted by cultivating new talent like Dana Carvey and Phil Hartman.

Notable Quote:

• Susan Morrison: "He realized that he wasn't so sad when he came back. ... But the show, it wasn't right in that year, but over the coming years, he brought in some financial people who helped him claw back some of the distribution rights." [24:03]

Michaels' Philosophy on Comedy and Management

A significant portion of the discussion centers on Michaels' philosophy regarding comedy and the operational aspects of running a live show. Susan highlights Michaels' preference for maintaining control over the creative process, his aversion to "sweaty" comedy (overly forced humor), and his commitment to creating an environment that fosters creativity while ensuring the well-being of his team.

Notable Quotes:

• Monica Padman: "He likes to remind people that comedy is an entertainment. ... Fred Astaire Never grunted while he danced." [21:14]
• Susan Morrison: "He never had that [workaholic] ... He's always made the show's schedule correspond to the vacation schedule of New York private schools." [19:18]

Balancing Creativity and Structure

Susan discusses the delicate balance Michaels maintains between allowing creative freedom and enforcing strict organizational structures to keep the show running smoothly. She explains how this balance contributed to SNL's longevity and ability to stay fresh over five decades.

Notable Quote:

• Monica Padman: "He always says, we don't go on because we're ready. We go on because it's 11:30." [37:22]

Handling Controversies and Adaptations

The conversation touches upon Michaels' handling of various controversies and his adaptability in the face of changing cultural landscapes. Susan recounts how Michaels navigated the show's transition periods and his strategies for keeping SNL relevant, such as integrating improv elements and responding to audience reactions in real-time.

Notable Quote:

• Monica Padman: "He realized, okay, we're just gonna roll over. ... People move on. Keeps the rookie bench full." [56:11]

Impact and Legacy

Susan emphasizes the profound impact Michaels has had on generations of comedians and the broader entertainment industry. She credits Michaels with nurturing talents who have gone on to become influential figures in comedy and film, underscoring his role as a pivotal mentor and gatekeeper in the industry.

Notable Quotes:

• Monica Padman: "Conan appeared in the Five Timers a couple of seasons ago. ... They have this kind of a cult favorite way of doing it." [55:22]
• Susan Morrison: "He never wanted the executive producer credit and that he wasn't going to stick his neck out now. ... I think this created a feeling of confusion and frostiness." [53:09]

Conclusion and Book Endorsement

Towards the end of the episode, Dax expresses his admiration for Susan’s book, praising its depth and engaging narrative style. Susan reflects on the challenges of documenting such a significant figure as Michaels and the meticulous research involved in capturing his multifaceted personality and career.

Notable Quote:

• Dax Shepard: "I love the book. I hope you take this as a compliment. It reads like a New Yorker article." [74:34]
• Susan Morrison: "He never wanted a book inflicted upon him. ... That's something he would have preferred to just sidestep this whole thing." [73:10]

Key Takeaways

• Lorne Michaels' Influence: Michaels is portrayed as a visionary behind SNL, with his leadership and creative strategies being central to the show's enduring success.
• Susan Morrison’s Expertise: Morrison provides an in-depth analysis of Michaels’ career, drawing from her extensive journalistic background and personal interactions.
• Comedy Philosophy: The episode explores Michaels' comedic principles, emphasizing authenticity, audience engagement, and the importance of live performance in SNL.
• Adaptability and Resilience: Michaels' ability to adapt to changing times and manage creative teams effectively is highlighted as a cornerstone of SNL’s longevity.

Notable Moments

• Early Career Reflections: Morrison discusses her initial work with Michaels during The New Show and how it influenced her subsequent career in journalism. [07:18]
• Spy Magazine's Satirical Edge: Insights into Spy Magazine’s role in satirizing the 1980s media landscape and its impact on Morrison’s career. [08:06]
• Michaels' Management Style: Detailed anecdotes about Michaels’ interactions with cast members and his hands-off yet supportive approach to management. [17:01]
• Handling Show Transitions: Morrison recounts Michaels’ strategies during critical periods, such as the transition after the departure of major cast members. [56:11]

Quotes with Timestamps

• Susan Morrison on Michaels as an Institution: "It is of SNL and of Lorne Michaels and we get all these like fun stories and it's just cool. And he's an institution." [00:29]
• Monica Padman on Michaels' Work Philosophy: "He likes to remind people that comedy is an entertainment. And he doesn't have a lot of patience for people who want to do some kind of dark Brechtian black box and sometimes do it in Sunshine." [21:14]
• Susan Morrison on Michaels' Legacy: "He didn't want to be an EP of the Tonight Show the way he was over Conan's late night...he thought this would be a good book." [15:50]
• Dax Shepard Praising the Book: "I love the book. I hope you take this as a compliment. It reads like a New Yorker article. It's so fast moving and every sentence is just packed with all this rich detail." [74:34]

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Conclusion: This episode offers a comprehensive exploration of Lorne Michaels' pivotal role in shaping American comedy through Saturday Night Live. Susan Morrison’s insights, backed by her journalistic acumen, provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of Michaels' management style, comedic philosophy, and the enduring legacy of SNL. Whether you’re a longtime fan or new to the show's history, this conversation sheds light on the intricate dynamics that have kept SNL relevant for over five decades.

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Disclaimer: The timestamps provided correspond to the transcript segments and are intended to enhance the summary's accuracy. For a complete experience, listening to the full episode is recommended.

Transcript

[Dax Shepard]

Wondry plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now. Join Wondry plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert Experts on Expert. I'm Dan Shepard. I'm joined by Lily Padman and Michael Weekley.

[Monica Padman]

Hello.

[Dax Shepard]

Hello. This guest, Susan Morrison.

[Susan Morrison]

This was so fun. This was such a fun listen back.

[Dax Shepard]

Was it?

[Susan Morrison]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

So she is the articles editor at the New Yorker. She has a new book out right now, Lorne the Man who Invented Saturday Night Live. This is like a crazy, fun, juicy history of Saturday Night Live.

[Susan Morrison]

It is of SNL and of Lorne Michaels and we get all these like fun stories and it's just cool. And he's an institution.

[Dax Shepard]

The wizard of Oz.

[Susan Morrison]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

He has a lot of monikers.

[Susan Morrison]

Very mysterious. Very mysterious. And we get a little deep dive. I thought this was incredibly enjoyable.

[Dax Shepard]

It's really cool because she's known him for decades.

[Susan Morrison]

Yes, exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

This is a really, really fun one. Her other books are spy high and 30 ways of looking at Hillary. So feel free to check those out too. But Lauren is fantastic. I encourage everyone to read it. Please enjoy. Susan Morrison. We are supported by Quints. Something about the weather warming up makes you want to get outside and go somewhere new, doesn't it? It's the spring travel itch.

[Susan Morrison]

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[Dax Shepard]

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[Susan Morrison]

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[Dax Shepard]

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[Susan Morrison]

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[Dax Shepard]

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[Monica Padman]

He's an unchurren. He's an unchanged man.

[Susan Morrison]

Her daughter is Adam Scott's assistant.

[Dax Shepard]

No.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah. Isn't that fun?

[Dax Shepard]

I'm sure you're only getting glowing reviews of Naomi and Adam.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, yeah.

[Susan Morrison]

Love it.

[Dax Shepard]

How did she end up with that job?

[Monica Padman]

I'm trying to remember. I think a friend at WME knew that he was looking for someone for the second season of Severance, and so they just really clicked. And so what's really fun is now to watch the second season with her because she'll tell you, like, oh, yeah, and the goats ran off there. And this is when John Turturro was, like, crying because it was so fucking cold, you know?

[Susan Morrison]

Oh, my God. That's fantastic.

[Monica Padman]

It's fun to have that kind of commentary.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, for sure. The inside scoop? Well, we send Adam Scott angry voice memos after every episode. That's kind of our participation in it. We yell at him for cliffhangers. Why is this taking so long? Are you guys shooting this show three hours a week? Why isn't there another season?

[Monica Padman]

I saw Adam and Ben on some talk show and someone said, when's season three? And I think Ben said, like, 2035.

[Susan Morrison]

That sounds about right. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

It's become an IQ test where it's like the gap between year one and.

[Susan Morrison]

You keep adding two was three, and.

[Dax Shepard]

Then it's gotta be six, and then we go up. Susan, where are you from?

[Monica Padman]

Tough to answer that, because when I was a kid, my dad worked for IBM, which meant that we moved every four years. So I was born in New Jersey and lived in Poughkeepsie and Denver and Stamford, Connecticut. And now I've lived in my apartment in New York for 40 years. So I think that makes me feel like I'm a New Yorker.

[Susan Morrison]

That qualifies.

[Dax Shepard]

I have a similar. I wonder if you attribute it to your childhood. We moved so much that in 30 years in LA, I lived in one single apartment for 10 years. Then I lived in a house for 16. And now we're here, and I just. Just don't ever want to.

[Monica Padman]

No, exactly. I think I will never move because my whole childhood was putting things in those Neptune moving boxes and unpacking them. And I always wanted to spare my kids that.

[Dax Shepard]

Did you get psychotic about your room, like, ideas? Like, wherever we went, at least my little bubble could be the same. And if someone altered my bubble, I was irrationally upset.

[Monica Padman]

Mine was the same Weird shade of pink. I had a canopy bed.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And I had little china cats. But I do think that that's why you want permanence.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. And you're dropping in every four years to a totally different social setting and culture and vibe. Were you good at meshing?

[Monica Padman]

I mean, I think about some things that were. I'm not one of those people who ever overuses the word trauma. Yeah, I frowned on that. But I remember when we moved to Colorado, I fell out of a tree and broke my arm, and my arm was kind of taped up inside my clothes. And in my first week in my new school, some girl I didn't know came up to me on the playground and kicked me really hard and said, I think it's awful that you're pretending to only have one arm.

[Susan Morrison]

Oh, my God.

[Monica Padman]

So those things, you're the new kid and you're the weird kid with one arm. Yes. But I think it's made me really resilient and adaptable as an adult. Do you find that for sure?

[Dax Shepard]

I want to go back to the little girl. I think there's a lot of interesting stuff happening in that move, which is someone feigning a disability, like, needs to be policed by the social hierarchy. It's not just that you had a broken arm and she's pissed you were getting attention.

[Monica Padman]

No, she thought I was pretending I.

[Dax Shepard]

Lost my arm, which would be disrespectful to someone who had lost.

[Monica Padman]

She might have even said, I know someone who lost an arm, like a grandfather in the war. I don't know.

[Susan Morrison]

And she was so young to be this very big justice.

[Monica Padman]

We're talking eight years old.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Susan Morrison]

Wow.

[Dax Shepard]

I think it's an instinct. That's what I'm arguing. I think there's something, like, very primitive about us being social primates. Whereas, like, if someone's pretending to be infirmed and they're not, that's deception. That's fascinating reaction to come up and kick a girl.

[Monica Padman]

Kicking right in the shins. Yeah. So the whole new kid thing was a really regular thing for me. I'm sure it was painful, and I'm sure I had lonely stretches that I've blocked. But I definitely feel like there are times in my adult life when I know this is why I'm good at this, and this is why I'm good at that.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. I can walk in and be around strangers and.

[Monica Padman]

Do podcasts exist?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, podcasts. What's your road to the New Yorker?

[Monica Padman]

My first job in the grownup world was working for Lorne Michaels. I was 23. My mom had just died. I had been living in England working for the Times of London. I moved back to America. My mom was sick, took care of her for a month and then she died of cancer. And I was just like, oh my God, what am I going to do? And some of my college friends from the Harvard Lampoon brought me into the city the day after my mom's funeral and introduced me to Jim Downey, who is the great long serving head writer of SNL and Lorne. This was during the period when he wasn't at SNL. He had a five year hiatus in the 80s and he was producing this primetime show called the New show, which was his first spectacular public failure. Yeah, yeah, but so I got a job working for the writers in that as like a researcher. That only lasted about nine, 10 episodes. But I was young and it cemented relationships with all these amazing comedy people so that after that I knew I wanted to go into journalism. I got a job at Vanity Fair, but I stayed friends with all those people and it especially served me. I feel like the real crucible part of my career was starting Spy magazine in the 80s with Kurt Anderson and Rayden Carter.

[Dax Shepard]

Forgive my ignorance. What was Spy's angle?

[Monica Padman]

Spy magazine was kind of modeled on Private Eye, the British Satiric weekly. The 80s were a time when fat cats and Wall street guys were just running the world. Donald Trump was ascendant.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And so we called ourselves, you know, the underdogs biting the ankles of the overdogs. We reported Trump's bankruptcies. We went after the Times and we had a column on CAA and Mike Ovitz. I mean, we really did a lot of funny and disrespectful reporting.

[Dax Shepard]

So it had a sense of humor, but it wasn't satire. It was actual reporting with a little comedic edge.

[Monica Padman]

It took us all by surprise by being like a big sensation. It suddenly was popular and it launched most of the people who did that. We did it for six years, starting in 86. Kind of run the media now. That's where I kind of learned everything.

[Dax Shepard]

It is weird, right, when you get to an age where all these people you started with, you are all kids and you look around, you go, oh, my God, it happened.

[Monica Padman]

No. And now you bump into someone like Walter Isaacson. We've all had a great ride.

[Dax Shepard]

Was he at Spy?

[Monica Padman]

No, he wasn't. But I knew he was just in that circle. Circle.

[Susan Morrison]

How cool.

[Monica Padman]

It is kind of nice.

[Dax Shepard]

I have a fantasy about New York in the 80s because it's very Billy Joe. It's. Everyone at Elaine's was so knocked out. You know, coke, limousines.

[Monica Padman]

That is definitely what it was like. We were all public school kids. We were all from outside of New York. We had that nose pressed up against the glass trying to figure this out. And it was a real time of uptown, downtown. You know, uptown were all these socialites, like, poof dresses, going to cancer galas and everything. It was a time of Tom Wolf, social X rays, bonfire, the Vanities. But downtown, it was area and these nightclubs that were creative and sort of cool, but also really pretentious and arty.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure, sure, sure.

[Monica Padman]

So the targets were everywhere you look.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, yeah. What a colorful array.

[Monica Padman]

It was fun.

[Dax Shepard]

I certainly like New York of today, but I also went there in the 80s with my mom when I was a kid, and it was very dangerous feeling.

[Monica Padman]

Yes, yes.

[Dax Shepard]

I mean, walking through Times Square, you're like holding Mom's hand extra tight. But I do miss how colorful and segmented. And you cross four blocks and it's like, everyone's now this way. And that was fun. You're like, almost time Trav.

[Monica Padman]

I love that concept because I sometimes think about walking around New York City. I mean, you get a little bit of that here with all the wonderful old signage and everything. But I like the idea of walking through a city as time travel, which is so thrilling. And you can still walk into Katz's Deli on Ludlow street, and you feel like you're in 1962 or just being.

[Dax Shepard]

In the Village and there's the one road that's got a bend in it, and you're like, oh, God, how old is that road? Yeah, it's very historic. When do you start at New Yorker?

[Monica Padman]

Okay, right after Spy, I edited this weekly called the New York observer, which was also kind of sarcastic and had an attitude. And we sort of made fun of people. And then in 1997, when Tina Brown ran the New Yorker, she hired me. So I've been there since then. The New Yorker turns 100 this year, just like SNL turns 50. And I am fascinated by. There's a lot of common ground between the two institutions that people aren't that aware of.

[Dax Shepard]

Tell me. I mean, first of all, they're implicitly New Yorker.

[Monica Padman]

They're New York things. But first, I'll say so. When Harold Ross started the magazine 100 years ago, he called it the Comic Weekly. It was this roaring, roaring twenties, jazz age, very fizzy publication with a lot of fun and gossip. And when Tina hired me. She knew that I had that impulse and I wanted to make things entertaining. And before her, William Shawn had been editing the New Yorker for some decades, and it did a lot of quality stuff, but there were sort of jokes about how it published five part series on grain, things like that. Yeah, right, right. So she really wanted to enliven it. I edit just the straight up humor pieces, but also the nonfiction writers that I edit and have brought in are all just people with real voice.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you have a relationship, I imagine, with Sedaris.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I know him. I edit him sometimes. He's great.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. What did I just. Was his the Pope piece in New Yorker or was that somewhere else? Touching the clothes?

[Monica Padman]

Yes. About when the Pope had all those comedians there.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

What a wild event for the comedy world.

[Dax Shepard]

Preposterous.

[Susan Morrison]

I think it's so cool that the Pope did that. It's weird. There's something that I can't really wrap my head around of, like, why, But I think maybe he just loves comedy. He's not able to really exercise that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I can't figure out his angle.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. I have a theory about this. I think that he just must be much savvier and worldlier than we think. And this sort of goes hand in hand with why SNL is still so important after 50 years, even when it has seasons that are lackluster. It's almost like we're in a comedy Gl, riding the subway or here, I guess, looking at billboards. And it didn't used to be that every advertisement was funny. Humor is just the language that we all speak in. And it used to be more of a cordoned off thing, but now you kind of have to be funny to even be able to get by in the world.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah, that's true.

[Monica Padman]

The Pope probably thought this is a way in. If you get the comedians on your side, you're kind of winning the war. I mean, it's something that Trump completely doesn't understand because he has the worst sense of humor of anyone I've ever heard about.

[Susan Morrison]

He's so outraged, outrageous that it is funny.

[Monica Padman]

But you're laughing at him.

[Susan Morrison]

You're laughing at him. But I don't know if it's worked to some extent, inadvertently.

[Dax Shepard]

He has a playground sense of humor. He makes fun of people and humiliates them, and people think that's funny.

[Monica Padman]

I think the way I would refine it is I don't think he's got a sophisticated sense of humor or even good sense of humor, but he's a Pure showman. Yes, that is right. Like, I remember one week when I was spending the whole week at snl, Alec Baldwin got arrested for. Not the rust thing, but he got arrested for punching a guy over a parking place.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure.

[Monica Padman]

And I remember being there in Lauren's office when the texts came through, and everyone was like, oh, God. And it was also kind of funny because it wasn't that serious. And then cut to Trump at a press conference. Cause those were the years when he was railing against Baldwin all the time because he was playing him. So a reporter said to Trump, did you hear about Alec Baldwin getting arrested? And Trump just kind of gives this, like, half smile and he goes, I wish him luck. And I remember watching that with Lorne Michaels. And Lorne just said, God, Trump just has, like, the exact right showbiz instinct to know how to respond.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah, he does.

[Dax Shepard]

It's good.

[Monica Padman]

It was underplayed, but it was funny.

[Dax Shepard]

The timing of this is perfect because, as you just said, 50 year anniversary of SNL, and I guess I didn't realize that you had worked for him. That makes a lot of sense. But I'm imagining you're just a humongous fan of the show and impressed with how this thing continues.

[Monica Padman]

I am a fan of it, but I wouldn't say that's really why I got into writing the book. It was after the 40th. I thought that show was really interesting and moving. You know, as I said, I stayed friends with a lot of those people over those years. And frankly, for years, I just heard all these different people I knew mostly in the writers room, complaining about Lauren or just saying, oh, and he did this and he cut that. And he's this way, in that kind of exasperated way. When I went on Lawrence O'Donnell's show, he said, this book is like a workplace comedy. It's a little bit like the Office. Right. So people complain about each other. I knew that he was mercurial and that they were all obsessed with him and always trying to figure him out. But I didn't think that the wider world knew that about him. So I thought this would be a good book. So it wasn't out of pure fandom. You know, it was more just like, as an editor, I thought, that's a good story. And also, Lorne Michaels is someone who's kind of been hiding in plain sight for 50 years. Such a mystery, doesn't talk to the press. And the inscrutability has kind of worked for him, both as a management tool and as a.

[Susan Morrison]

He's like Anna Wintour. I put them in the same category.

[Dax Shepard]

He's the Anna Wintour.

[Susan Morrison]

Like, they are both, like, elusive and huge figures that have major impact.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, that's funny because it's tied into the Pope. Because the one thing I wanted to say about the pope thing was both times I would go because I personally want the story. And then also my other part of my mind be like, look how insane the status thing is. You still buy into it. Like, one person has a given status where they just summons a hundred of the most prominent people who have their own status, and everyone shows up and.

[Monica Padman]

They bought their own plane tickets.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. And if you're the aliens watching from above, you're like, huh, that guy can do that. That's just so fascinating to me that even you could be in on it and also be inclined to play along. So then, yes. Lauren also has this really unique wizard of Oz. All the people you interview, there's these very common comparisons that come up about him.

[Monica Padman]

Obi Wan Kenobi, Mr. Ripley. Some of them have even compared him to Trump.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. But I would also put him in the George Washington category a little bit, which is he didn't talk, and he was surrounded by all these people that wouldn't shut the f. So they just assumed he was so smart because he didn't even feel compelled to brag. And they couldn't understand that in his quietness, people just projected a lot.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

Lauren is obviously incredibly gifted, and also, he's not superhuman, but I do think he's taken on this kind of superhuman quality.

[Monica Padman]

I think that's true. Part of it is when these people come to him, when he plucks them from obscurity, they tend to be 22 or 23. Think about, like, Bill Hader coming from Oklahoma, where his previous showbiz job had been being like a piece on Iron Chef. People that come to New York, they're suddenly. I mean, they're not making a hell of a lot of money, but they're on television. And Lauren has kind of opened the whole world to them, and they invest him with this power. Some of it is like a daddy thing, but some of it is also like, oh, my God, this man changed my Life. And Conan O'Brien said to me, everyone concurs with this. When you work for SNL as a writer or cast, it basically takes two weeks from going from, like, insanely grateful to being, like, put out that how are you ever gonna get out of these golden handcuffs? Kind of entitles thing. Lauren just made so much Happen for them. I mean, he told me once that there's a real distinction in his social world between all the cast and all the people that he's hired and his friends who came into the business on their own steam. Paul Simon, Steve Martin. They don't owe him everything. So it's an easier relationship.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. Someone who had the experience, which is, come to la, go to the Groundlings. Cause I know that's a feeder for Saturday Night Live. Singularly focused on being good there. So I can get to Saturday Night Live. The only goal is Saturday Night Live. I was just talking about another actor. Yes. It's so unique in that if you audition for Oliver Stone and you don't get it, that's okay. The Coen brothers are gonna cast a movie in two weeks and you got a shot there. And then so and so is gonna cast the movie. But Saturday Night Live is the only option if that's what your mind was set on. If you don't get the audition or you get it and you don't get made or he opens up the kingdoms. I think there's so rarely a singular focus goal in show business. Generally, you're like, I wanna act.

[Monica Padman]

But he's the only gatekeeper. One of the great things that Tina Fey said to me about him is considering when he came to power. That is the phrase to use with him. You know, he never got that 80s disease. Having been in journalism in the 80s, I know what she means of wanting to boast about being an insane workaholic. I mean, I remember you'd read stories about Jeff Katzenberg and Barry Diller and they'd say, I get up at 4am with my craner for 90 minutes. Then my stock guy comes. I sleep three hours a day. He never had that.

[Dax Shepard]

Haven't seen my kid in four years.

[Monica Padman]

From the very beginning, he's had this almost European European kind of fixation on leisure. He's always made the show's schedule correspond to the vacation schedule of New York private schools.

[Susan Morrison]

Oh, really?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. He makes sure he takes a lot of time off in swanky locales. And he tells all of his people to do the same. And aside from opening the professional world to these people, he has this kind of Henry Higgins thing with them. He likes to teach them how to live the good life. You know, he doesn't want them to be killing themselves and staying up all night. And one of the things that was fun about tracking his life over 50 years is the quality of that advice has kind of changed as he's become More of a moguly kind of guy. In the 70s, it would be like, rotate your drug use. But now it's a number of different people. Told me.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

When you're buying an apartment, he'll say two things. First of all, get an apartment that's more expensive than you think you can afford. Because then you come home at the end of an exhausting day and you'll say, who lives here?

[Dax Shepard]

I live here.

[Monica Padman]

And then the other thing he says to these people, he says, you know what's better than 10 foot ceilings? 12 foot ceilings, wow. He's like, whose boss tells them that.

[Dax Shepard]

When they're making 7,500 a week in.

[Monica Padman]

Manhattan, he's aware that they're. And this is another great Lauren phrase, they're first generation famous. Meaning that their parents back in Peoria aren't gonna be able to answer their questions about, should I get a Lexus or a Tesla?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Ye. Yeah, I like that. Okay, so let's maybe just start with where Lauren comes from. Because I do wonder if part of being inoculated to that 80s trope of I'm a workaholic, I wonder if there's any Canadian in the mix.

[Monica Padman]

His personal demeanor, his personal humor is that kind of Canadian self deprecating thing. Although I do say at some point in the book he is that way. And yet he's under no illusion that anybody takes his self deprecation seriously.

[Susan Morrison]

Right, right, right, right. He knows his place.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, the Steve Martin quote you put in there is so great. It's like, like Dave Letterman is truly self deprecating.

[Monica Padman]

He doesn't think he's any good.

[Dax Shepard]

Lauren does not suffer from this issue.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, yeah. But in talking about his childhood, he'll say, canada's a really boring place. You have to make your own fun. It's harder to find a stimulating life. And he always had his eye south of the border. He said it was like growing up next to Imperial Rome. But I think that you're right that there is a kind of a Canadian mildness, the thing about wanting to take his leisure seriously that's connected to the way he views comedy. Like, he doesn't like comedy that he calls sweaty. Like, I wish I had room to have a glossary on the back of this book because there's so much terminology. Sweaty comedy is like comedy that's trying too hard, that's pushing and needy. He'll always say the art of producing is not leaving any fingerprints, making it look easy. He'll say, Fred Astaire Never grunted while he danced. That's part of his work philosophy.

[Dax Shepard]

His grandparents owned a movie theater. Well, that's a unique experience where the family has declared we value show business. You say in the book his grandparents would talk about all these actors, Humphrey Bogart, on a level where he would think they might know these people.

[Monica Padman]

One of my favorite things about that story, and I don't know if he even made this connection, but when he was telling me that they'd be talking about Spencer Tracy and he thought those people were his friends, I thought, how amazing that this guy would grow up to be someone who routinely just talks about Mick and Jack and Paul.

[Susan Morrison]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

One of the fun things about writing this guy's biography is that all the years before he got onto the world stage and became the Lorne Michaels that we know, it seemed to me that almost every experience he had, you could draw a line between that and the producing skills he would later use at snl. Like even when he was a tiny boy watching your show of shows or Phil Silver's or whatever with his grandmother, who was the movie savant, she knew about showbiz. He told me that they'd be looking at Jack Benny on tv. And he loved Jack Benny. Cause of his underplayed low key thing. But she would say, so he's really old now. He started out as a young man in vaudeville. Then he got older, his hair turned white and he was a star of radio. But then television came along, a visual medium. So all these guys had to dye their hair black or if you're George Burns, wear a ridiculous rug. So you imagine tiny Lorne thinking about this Darwinian aspect of showbiz. Eras shifting and moving and having to adjust. And that's really the key to how he's been able to keep it going for 50 years, paying attention to when the music changes and when the technology changes.

[Dax Shepard]

That's the impossible quality that he has, is keeping it relevant and fresh. Which seems impossible for 50 years, but I would say even like his access. So he had a rich aunt and uncle.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, I mean, people tease him about being name droppy and star fuckery and stuff. Am I allowed to say that?

[Susan Morrison]

Oh, of course. You don't say anything.

[Monica Padman]

When he was a little boy, his family, I think, was sort of on the drabber side. His mom was classic, like Philip Roth, Jewish mother really breathed down his neck. His father was a furrier. And then he died when Lauren was 14. But he had this aunt Nuckville lived down the street who. Who are in a fancier Part of Toronto. They were very rich.

[Dax Shepard]

They had a swimming pool in their house.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. They swimming pool, indoor.

[Dax Shepard]

It just recently sold for $18 million.

[Monica Padman]

You were a good reader, man. So they were rich and glamorous. Lauren was like, oh, I wish I were that family. And when Lauren's dad died, they really stepped in. And Uncle Pep, great name. Took Lauren under his wing and taught him everything about business and the world. And I think that is also the key to why Lauren extends himself that way to his own young charges. He wants to show them how to do it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. Such close proximity to wealth, coveting that. Seeing that the attention in the family is show business, movie stars. We all want to be the star of our family first. And it's like if you see the things that are valued. And then also getting kind of an education of how to move in an upscale thing. As later in life he'll have to do. Acting like you've been there even though you haven't.

[Monica Padman]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

So how does he get from Toronto to Laughin?

[Monica Padman]

He's grown up in this very parochial little neighborhood. Very much like Philip Roth's Newark Forest Hills, where he grew up. Where it was all these young Jewish kids whose parents really wanted them to be lawyers.

[Dax Shepard]

Take one second to talk about that article that came out.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, wow.

[Dax Shepard]

I think that's really fascinating.

[Monica Padman]

I stumbled on the greatest piece of research. It was this 600 page book called the Crestwood Heights Report. The Canadian government funded a study of this one neighborhood in Toronto. It was Lorne's neighborhood. They changed the name from Forest Hill to Crestwood. And they were trying to improve mental health services in Canada. So they did this deep dive interviewing all these children and parents in Lauren's neighborhood. I could not figure out if they actually interviewed the Lipowitzes. Lauren didn't know. He was a little boy. And then they published this huge psychological report. It kind of reminded me of Peyton Place in the US it was an indictment of this very bougie values of this class. And said all the mothers were just competitive with the other mothers about where their kids were getting into school.

[Dax Shepard]

To believe there's just a nice layer of anti Semitism under all of it. No, I mean it was a very Jewish area.

[Monica Padman]

That's probably true.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I mean, why were they, it seems so judgmental.

[Monica Padman]

They were really tisk tisking the fact that they were strivers.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Monica Padman]

Who wasn't a striver in that post war era?

[Dax Shepard]

I guess it's also that Canadian tall poppy thing.

[Monica Padman]

They were disapproving of how Some of these houses had those clear plastic slip covers. The kids were banished to the basement.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah, well, maybe I was also trying to say what many other subsequent studies have said, which is money doesn't equal happiness.

[Dax Shepard]

But it had more of a nouveau rich kind of a take. Like these people were grotesque in their striving. It was much more of a straight judgment of how they were doing it.

[Monica Padman]

But before laughing, I wanted to go back to something that you said about Amy Poehler. Pretending you belong somewhere when you don't. One of the things that Amy was smartest about in talking to me about Lauren, she felt that completely beyond all the comedy things you can learn from him. And he has a lot of theories of comedy. He's like a comedy professor. She thought that he was just so great at teaching you how to be in a room, how to walk into a room. And you got Paul McCartney at the dinner table and not lose your shit and start acting like a weirdo.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

And being able to go into a pitch meeting and just be at the grownups table. And when you think about it, that is the real skill. And I think that's something he has in spades at a weird early age. And even his cousin from Toronto, Neil Levy, told me that when he first came to New York, he was barely 30 and he was hanging out with Mick Jagger and Paul Simon. And we're like, how does Lauren know these people?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

But he said that he thought that it was just some kind of like EQ sort of thing. An intuitive sense of knowing what a person is gonna be interested in, talking about, not gushing, treating them just like a regular room temperature kind of conversation. And I think that that is part of it. And he does teach all his people how to do that. And that's why so many of the SNL people, aside from having good comedy or acting careers, they know how to produce, they know how to be showrunners, they know how to handle people.

[Susan Morrison]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

But anyway, so go back to your other question. He was in Toronto. He had this comedy partner who was a much more of a borscht, belt y seltzer down the pants kind of comic. And they did two man comedy, very corny blackouts, punchline setups. And that was a way to go for a while. This guy had met Jack Rollins in New York who was Woody Allen's manager. So again, Lorne always had this eye on who can get me up to the next step. He was smart about that.

[Dax Shepard]

Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare.

[Monica Padman]

At 24 I lost my narrative, or rather, it was stolen from me, and.

[Susan Morrison]

The Monica Lewinsky that my friends and family knew was usurped by false narratives.

[Monica Padman]

Callous jokes, and Polish politics. I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours.

[Susan Morrison]

Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. So I think listeners can expect me to be chatting with folks both recognizable.

[Monica Padman]

And unrecognizable names about the way that people have navigated roads to triumph.

[Susan Morrison]

My hope is that people will finish.

[Monica Padman]

An episode of Reclaiming and feel like they filled their tank, they connected with.

[Susan Morrison]

The people that I'm talking to, and leave with maybe some nuggets that help.

[Monica Padman]

Them feel a little more hopeful.

[Susan Morrison]

Follow Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Reclaiming early and ad free right now by joining Wondery.

[Monica Padman]

Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

[Dax Shepard]

Lamont Jones's world is shattered when his cousin dies in custody just weeks after entering prison. Prison, the official report says natural causes, but bruises and missing teeth tell a different story. From Wondery comes Death County, Pennsylvania, a chilling true story of corruption and cover ups that begins as one man's search for answers but soon reveals a disturbing pattern. Lamont's cousin's death is just one of many, and powerful forces are working to keep the truth buried. With never before heard interviews and shocking revelations, Death County, Pennsylvania pulls back the curtain on one of America's darkest institutional secrets. This isn't just another true crime story.

[Monica Padman]

It's happening right now.

[Dax Shepard]

Follow Death County Pa on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Death County Pa early and ad free right now by joining Wondery. What if your mind could trick your body into feeling sick or even worse? In Hysterical, I investigate the bizarre medical mystery that unfolds in a high school in upstate New York. It starts with one girl developing strange, violent symptoms, and then another. And then another. Rumors begin to swirl. Is it something in the water inside the school or is it all in their heads? Hysterical is my search for answers, and along the way I uncover surprising connections to unexplained incidents around the world, events that challenge everything we think we know about our bodies and our minds. Named Podcast of the Year at the Gambies, Hysterical is a mind bending, unforgettable ride. Binge all episodes right now exclusively and ad free on Wonder Start your free trial of Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

[Monica Padman]

But then he always felt like one of the problems with Canada, it's almost too polite. Even when he and his partner were doing well, the CBC would say, okay, your turn's over. Time to give someone else a chance. There's this American idea of a trajectory. Up, up, up, up, up. Right now.

[Susan Morrison]

Never stops.

[Monica Padman]

He goes to LA as a writer. He's knocking around, really, the lamest string of variety television shows you can imagine. The beautiful Phyllis Diller show, where Phyllis Diller, who's a genius, I think, but still the show, she would play the saxophone to Ernest Borg9 and stuff like that. And Perry Como's Christmas Special. Things like, even though these were really cruddy things, he always had a takeaway. He learned something from even the lamest experiences. Right on the Perry Como show, the executive producer said to him, you know why Perry Como's a star? Watch him when he comes out on stage to sing. He comes out and he walks from the wings over to the microphone. And it's just the way he walked. The pace of the walking made him a star. And like, whoa. But a little takeaway like that. Anyways, those shows always got canceled or he got fired. So then he ends up at Laugh in, which was a hit show. But as he said, it wasn't any more fun working on a hit show than working on a show that was about to be canceled. Because the way it was done at Laugh in. And this informs how he eventually would set up the process at snl. The writers were in a motel far away from the studio, throwing out jokes that just kind of went into the maw. And then somebody would rewrite them, and then two other people would rewrite them. He never even went into the studio. And that show, I used to watch it, I'm that old. Every big star in Hollywood would show up on that show and do a walk on. And if you're Lauren and you're excited about glamour, think how horrible it must have felt to be in the motel with the schmoe comedy writers. And you're not meeting Dean Martin and everybody else. He'd watch the show in the motel with his fellow writers on Monday. That's the only way you ever knew if any of your material was used. You know, you'd maybe see, like, a glimmer of one of your jokes. One of the great things about SNL being live, and Lorne realized this almost accidentally, is that the audience tells you whether it works. That's why the dress rehearsal's so important at snl. He's sitting there underneath where the audience sits and he's listening to them. They're his secret sauce. I mean, of course, he has his own opinion too. But a proper laugh is a kind of combustible, uncontrolled thing. You can't fake it. So hearing the laugh is really important.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. And also just to jump to the live aspect. Improv, live is spectacular. Improv on television is terrible because you've lost the element of danger. That failure is on the table around every corner. There's no safety net. And so SNL being live is such an interesting. They've captured some of that danger even in the live broadcast. Whereas, like laugh and edited, something gets reduced. There's no fear there.

[Monica Padman]

That is exactly right. And I sometimes wonder when you see the show in eight age, it's so thrilling. My kids were both like theater kids. And they were always just like, oh, my God. It's like the theater because people are running in and out with pieces of scenery. Someone's changing their pants over there.

[Susan Morrison]

Yes, Frenetic.

[Monica Padman]

Get the sense of the excitement. And people at home who don't see the scenery coming into that, but you still get the adrenaline.

[Dax Shepard]

I think the audience bridges that gap. The audience is like a huge character in Saturday Night Live.

[Monica Padman]

Yes. I saw this a little bit when I worked for Lauren, but also. So if you're there at the show, there's all this like. And then you'll see Lauren just to the left of home base. He'll be completely still. He'll have his hands in his pockets. It's just this kind of little pool of calm. And it makes his mystique even stranger.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, that's his way to control chaos, which is if you enter a room and someone's shouting and you start talking very low, you can bring them down.

[Monica Padman]

Right. And in the old days, he would always stand there with a glass of white wine.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, how elegant.

[Monica Padman]

To kind of keep it like I'm just at a cocktail party. But the live thing, the fear, the no net thing, this is probably something that I'm able to bring to this. When I met Lauren, we hardly knew each other. But working on the new show in 1984, part of the reason that was a big failure, I think, is that unlike Saturday Night Live, it wasn't live. It was taped on a Thursday night, edited all night long, and then it would go up Friday. As people who worked with him for a long time say, Lauren's the kind of guy not good at term papers, really good at tests, meaning he needs the deadline. So at the new show it was structured a lot like SNL sketches, guest stars, but there'd be an audience, and they'd be locked in the studio because sometimes these tapings would go for three or four hours. People would try to leave, and we couldn't let them leave because you needed them there. And I remember people would yell cut in the middle of a sketch, and you start it over. They'd have to patch it together in the editing room. They'd have to add a laugh track. And as Jim Downey said, you had all the crudeness of live and the staleness of tape. So that was also a lesson that, like, okay, you need that electricity of live.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. What is the saying that you wrote down?

[Monica Padman]

He famously says, we don't go on because we're ready. We go on because it's 11:30.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah. Which is a very liberating approach in a way.

[Monica Padman]

You know, I was thinking about what you were just saying about improv and how it's like the circus or something. Like, if you're looking at it on a tape, it just could be cgi, but if you're sitting right next to the person in the trapeze, you're kind of going, but, yes, improv and snl. It's something I explored a little bit in the book. The relationship between improv people and SNL is an interesting one because I don't think most viewers know.

[Dax Shepard]

I didn't know this until your book.

[Monica Padman]

Every kid takes improv lessons now, the way when I was a kid, you take piano lessons. So improv is such a big thing in the culture, but there's no improvisation on snl. People who have dared to improvise, like Damon Wayans, they're five.

[Dax Shepard]

What about feeling like Will Ferrell? Positive. I've seen moments where the thing's going awry. The audience is in on it. He starts filling, maybe ad lib. Yes. Acknowledging what's happening and just bridging this gap.

[Monica Padman]

I guess if something were to go wrong, then you can sort of ad lib and save it. But if you ad lib, like a joke or something, you're fired. You're out of there. And it's partly about huge respect for the writer and the writing, which goes back to laughing. But it's. Everything is timed with a stopwatch down to the second because they have to know when that commercial break is gonna land. And so that's why these famous incidents, like Sinead O'Connor tearing up the picture of the Pope or Elvis Costello quitting and going into another song. The reason Those things made people upset, wasn't just that they were messing with the plan, but because it could throw off the camera operators and could throw off the timing.

[Susan Morrison]

It's a play.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. If Elvis plays a different song, well, what if that's 44 seconds longer and then the Toyota ad can't run?

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

So the irony is you don't improv on the show. But improv players do really well when they're in the cast. And that, I think, is because they're really good at ensemble work. To be good at improv is, you know, you have to be really tuned in, you have to listen. And that's why improv guys like you, as opposed to, like, standups, are good on the show.

[Dax Shepard]

What are his rules of sketch?

[Monica Padman]

Some of them are really broad, tonal things like do it in Sunshine. He likes to remind people that comedy is an entertainment. And he doesn't have a lot of patience for people who want to do some kind of dark Brechtian black box and sometimes do it in Sunshine. Is something as simple as the costumes, something that I think I cut from the book because the book was way too long in the beginning.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, when you write for 10 years, you're liable to stack up some pages.

[Monica Padman]

Bruce McCulloch, one of the Kids in the hall, was a writer on the show in 85:86, and he told me that Joan Cusack was in the cast then, and they were doing a run through of a sketch and she was in some kind of dowdy dress. And Lauren said, can't you put her in something more attractive? You know, she's a pretty girl. And Bruce got really mad and he said, okay, Lauren, you want me to put her in a fucking bikini? And, you know, he later said, I can't believe I wasn't fired for that. But the point is just that you want it to be pleasant and bright and you don't want people yelling at each other. You don't want to write anger.

[Dax Shepard]

I found this really interesting. He has no tolerance for people that are doing impersonations out of a place of hate. And this is an increasingly interesting dynamic that's presented itself in the last decade on the show, which is everyone's politics are so fucking rigid. Now that you have these performers that almost refuse to lampoon liberal, then if they're playing a conservative, they hate the conservative they're playing with, and they have a tendency to make them unenjoyable to watch.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, it was so interesting for me to spend a lot of time there during the first Trump administration. Because a lot of this tension was kind of coalescing for the first time. Taran Killam, who had been playing Trump before Alec Baldwin did, was really outraged to get a note every now and then saying, can you give him a little more charm? And Lordne didn't mean, like, because we like Trump, of course, but he meant, and it's an entertainment. It's gotta be funny. You go where the laughs are. And he always uses as an example how British villains like Bond villains, or think of Alan Rickman and Die Hard or even some Shakespeare characters.

[Dax Shepard]

They're fun.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. I mean, they're kind of oily, and you like to watch them. Another thing that I've heard him say a lot is idiots play better than assholes. They're just gonna be kind of funnier. And Dr. Evil is sort of the apotheosis of that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Susan Morrison]

So.

[Monica Padman]

So I think that some of the more millennial younger people in the cast. That's a hard thing for them to get and swallow.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. If someone didn't want to play Feinstein.

[Monica Padman]

Right. Cecily Strong felt awkward about a piece where she was playing Feinstein. It's kind of a drooly, doddery old lady, but she is. There was comedy in that, and one week I was there. He wanted Kate McKinnon to do her Angela Merkel impersonation, which is funny, you know, with a bold. She didn't want to do it because Merkel had announced that she was stepping down, and it was, like, just too sad. But as the Woody Allen character would say in Annie hall, what? Or his mother, what concern of that is yours? The people laugh.

[Susan Morrison]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, he has to give a speech at one point that you're privy to, which is he basically just says, your politics aren't the politics of the show. Those are two different things. Our obligation is to bring truth and humor to power on both sides. We're not doing one version here.

[Monica Padman]

He takes some heat for saying this, but political comedy on television has veered more toward a kind of a virtue, signaling you're with us or you're against us. You know, even the Daily show, which of course makes fun of liberals. You definitely feel there's an ideology there.

[Dax Shepard]

You could watch five minutes of it and be pretty certain.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. And you feel like Fox viewers are probably not watching it at all.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. Where you have these famous sketches of. Who was it that did Jimmy Carter?

[Monica Padman]

Oh, yeah. Dan Aykroyd.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, Dan Aykroyd. They have a rich tradition of blasting liberals and Republicans.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, and Daryl Hammond's Bill Clinton. So. Oh, funny.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, incredible. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

We live in such a strange time now, especially in Trump, too. This whole culture war thing that I think people feel like everyone should be mobilized at all times. And Lauren's take, I guess, would be that's not what they're there for. And it reminds me of this great word that Seth Meyers coined when he was head writer, which I just think is so smart. It's the word clapter. The idea of clapter is there's some political humor that you do it. You make a political joke, and people go like, yes, yes, of course. Very good. They're clapping because they agree with the sentiment. But what you want is you want this uncontrollable physical reaction of a laugh.

[Susan Morrison]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

But like, at the same time, back then, 2018, when Trump was two years in, it was around the midterms. I remember talking to some of the writers, and this was when Trump was tweeting about SNL every day. Remember, he was obsessed, and they said, it's a little scary to me that the President of the United. United States is paying so much attention to the job that I do. And what if some dumb punchline I write causes him to blow up the world?

[Dax Shepard]

Right. He's pretty dialed in. Well, even Chappelle in his recent monologue, because I know you're watching. Yeah, he is. That's crazy. He's talking directly to the president right now.

[Monica Padman]

It's crazy.

[Dax Shepard]

I want to talk about the drug stuff. This field of people really over indexes in addiction, myself included. And to love and root for and all these people. He would have to have a great radar for what's happening over the years, having watched so many of the performers struggle with this. And I'm most curious how it's evolved for him, what kind of regrets he has.

[Monica Padman]

Chris Rock told me, you know, this guy has been hundreds, if not thousands of people's boss. You get to be a pretty good student of human character that way. I think that in the very beginning, it was the 70s, and his whole idea was he wanted to update the kind of moribund variety show formula with the concerns of his generation. Sex and drugs and rock and roll, and there's a lot of drug humor in those first five years. His feeling back then, which was not unusual, was people's private lives are their business. What you do on your own time is your own business. I'm not gonna tell you what to do. I'm not the man.

[Dax Shepard]

And I think if you party yourself, it could be a little misleading. Like, well, I smoke weed and I mean, he's getting pulled over with weed in the car.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. I did a thing at the 92nd Street Y recently with Bob Odenkirk, who I guess I didn't know this was a kind of a straight arrow as a young man. And he said one of the things that shocked him in reading my book was getting a sense of what a pothead Lauren had been. I don't think that's that alarming in any way. But in the 70s, they were all practically living at the offices. You know, they'd stay there all night. There was a lot of coke which fueled them through these all night writing sessions. And as Lauren said, probably the office was nicer than most of their apartments at that point.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure.

[Monica Padman]

But the advice was basically just rotate your drugs. And there was, I think, this sense of, of if you can't handle it, it's kind of your problem. And the other thing that's interesting, and even if you look at the drug humor on the show, things like drugs and eating disorders, they hadn't been medicalized yet. They were just kind of character things. And I remember Lauren once saying to me that between the movie Arthur and Arthur 2, alcoholism moved from being a subject for comedy and a disease.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Because there was this big cultural shift.

[Dax Shepard]

God, that hits home. I just gotta say. That was my dad's favorite movie. It was one of our favorite mov. We watched Arthur a hundred times. He was also a raging alcoholic. And then even between the gap of Arthur 1 and 2, my dad went to treatment, got sober. So it literally happened real time for us where it was like, oh, wait, that's so interesting. It's not super cute that this guy's hammered all day long.

[Monica Padman]

So that was his take. And then Belushi dies.

[Dax Shepard]

What year did he die?

[Monica Padman]

It was when he was off the show.

[Dax Shepard]

So it was like 85 or 6ish or later.

[Monica Padman]

I'm thinking it was around 86. And we're gonna have to fact check.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Monica will dig right in.

[Monica Padman]

It was before then. It was during the hiatus years, so it was probably early mid-80s. And Lauren always is a little bit of a point of pride in saying that no one's actually died while working for the show.

[Susan Morrison]

Well, while their tenure.

[Monica Padman]

Well, he means just while they were employed on the show. Right.

[Susan Morrison]

Okay, I might take some time.

[Monica Padman]

I mean, he would say that it's because there's something about the discipline of the show which is almost military in its rigor.

[Dax Shepard]

You gotta approach it like an addiction.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, that's Right. The show itself is an addiction.

[Dax Shepard]

You end up regulating how you feel by this job, and it works. And then when the job goes away, you're in trouble.

[Monica Padman]

In both the case of Chris Farley and Belushi, they were off the show for a certain number of years without the structure of the show. They were kind of spinning out.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

But anyway, when Belushi died, it really hit him hard. And I think he felt like this whole approach of just letting people do their own thing on their own time, this was the wrong approach. We're a tribe, and we have to look out for each other. And so. So by the time Chris Farley comes along ten years later, whatever. From the beginning, he clearly had addiction issues. Lauren would call him into his office and give him these talks about the drinking or the drugs. And the sad thing was that for Farley, who was such a child man kind of guy, Bob Odenkirk, I remember telling me that Farley would be excited to be called into Lauren's office. It was like the kind of thrill of being in the principal's office, but at the same time, you're getting in trouble. He couldn't metabolize it. But Lorne had really changed his approach. He would ban Farley from the show for weeks at a time if he was too fucked up. He sent him to a series of really tough love rehab places. And obviously it didn't do it for him. I think he's been pretty hands on in guiding Pete Davidson through his different issues and Mulaney. And they all talk about how Lauren is a really helpful person to talk to about it. So I think that he definitely realized, okay, I can play a role here. But also, also, I never saw any drugs in the time that I spent over there in the last number of years. He joked once, he said, yeah, now it's all about Ozempic.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, that's a drug. What are Lauren's five rules of show business? Longevity.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, boy. Let's see.

[Dax Shepard]

And if you get three out of five, that'll be good.

[Monica Padman]

Well, he'll say, you can't make an entrance if you don't make an exit. And he'll sometimes say that to people when they're leaving the show. You kind of have to switch horses. I mean, strange. It's something he's never done, although he did make the exit in 1980. And then another thing he likes to say is, when do people leave show business? And the answer is, never. No one ever leaves show business. And then he'll say, you're out of the business five years before somebody will tell you. I mean, that relates a little bit to his management style that I think explains. He knows it's a long game. When he was in Hollywood as a young man, he saw the Smothers brothers be taken off the air because they wouldn't let up on the Vietnam stuff that they were doing, which was brilliant. But the lesson he took away from that is, yeah, they're brilliant, but they made martyrs of themselves. And now they don't get to do a show.

[Dax Shepard]

Even in his speech. Like, this show airs in 50 states.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. And I think that that would also inform how he viewed what went down with Conan and the Tonight Show.

[Dax Shepard]

Tell me.

[Monica Padman]

Well, that was a very complicated thing where Lauren picked Conan. Significantly, a writer, you know, like Lauren was to succeed David Letterman. What a preposterous idea. Like a comedy writer who's ever even been a professional performer. And he fostered his career. And then years later, when Conan took over the Tonight show, this is something that the Hollywood people still kind of parse and talk about like it's some Greek myth.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Lauren was not made executive producer of the Tonight show the way he was over Conan's late night. And partly it was Tonight show was in la, Lorne was in New York. There was a sense in the business that it was a tactical mistake to not have Lauren, to not have Lauren as the Godfather figure who had big pulp, even if he's just like a fire extinguisher behind glass. Because then when NBC started messing around with Conan's slot, I don't know if you remember, Jay Leno didn't really want to retire at that point.

[Dax Shepard]

There's sides here in la.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I refuse to be on one. I think everyone got fucked.

[Monica Padman]

I agree.

[Susan Morrison]

Let's give a little context for people who don't know what happened.

[Monica Padman]

Okay. So when Conan was successfully doing the late night show, he was being wooed by other networks. So NBC, I think this was the idea of his agent, Gavin Pallone. It's kind of a kooky idea. They said, well, okay, if you promise him the Tonight show in X number of years, like nine years, he'll stay. So they signed this weird you're the lady in waiting kind of thing with Conan. He stuck around. The date approaches. The NBC is like, oh, shit, we don't want to get rid of Jay and Jay doesn't want to go. So they were over a barrel. I mean, it was kind of a dumb deal if you think about it. So they did put Conan in On the Tonight Show, Jay didn't want to go. So they did this weird thing where they put him at 10pm that show is actually not doing great because people aren't used to seeing Jay Leno tell jokes at 10. So then it started to erode the lead in for the 11 o'clock news, which started to erode the lead in for Conan's show.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. And you're trying to like figure out what is the broken part. Is Conan not appealing? Is it the lead in that sucks.

[Monica Padman]

So then what they decide to do is they said, okay, we're gonna put Jay on later and he's gonna come right before Conan and we're gonna move Conan's tonight show to 12:05. So it's this little adjustment.

[Dax Shepard]

Like nothing anybody loves.

[Monica Padman]

Half hour or now in the age of it's like, duh, who cares? But Conan felt like, why is the network sticking around with me? Because he'd been waiting all these years. When you think about it now, it seems so minor, but he grew up revering the Tonight show as this franchise in the same way that Lauren did as a child. So that's so interesting. They had this similar vibration and Conan got this idea in his head that the tonight show at 1205 simply isn't the Tonight Show.

[Dax Shepard]

That's like breach of contract.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, Team Coco. I'm with Coco. It became this huge movement, but at the same time, I think Conan hoped that Lorne Michaels, who had basically been his patron and guardian angel early in his career, would maybe intervene with NBC to try to not let this bad thing happen. But Lauren didn't so much. And Lauren doesn't really want to ever talk about this head on. He's just way too self possessed and cool for that. But people around Lauren feel that it was an act of disrespect. It's kind of a Godfather thing, that he hadn't been given that EP credit and that he wasn't going to stick his neck out now. He told me that he found it painful to watch Conan twisting in the wind. And he thought if he did have the opportunity to talk to Conan, he would have said, this is like dying on a molehill. Don't make a martyr of yourself like the Smothers Brothers. Don't make a huge fuss out of this thing, which is five minutes stay on the air. That's the rule of show business. Stay on the air, stay on the air, stay on the air. But then the Conan people, and I've known Conan forever from college and his producer, Jeff Ross live in my building. Those guys, they also have a completely understandable explanation. Oh yeah, they're newbies, they're youngins, they're come out to la and they say, the NBC people said, you know what? We don't need to bring Lorne Michaels. He's on the East Coast. You guys are set. We don't need it. And they're like, okay, sure, boss.

[Susan Morrison]

They're new.

[Monica Padman]

They don't know what they're doing either.

[Dax Shepard]

I actually don't think there's a total bad guy in the situation. I guess NBC is the bad guy, but it's not like this was their master plan. It all went to shit and they didn't know how to fix it.

[Susan Morrison]

Dumb. To promise something you didn't know you were gonna be able to execute. Very corporate. To be like, yeah, you're gonna get this and have no idea.

[Monica Padman]

Conan obviously completely recovered. He's had an amazing career and I think his whole podcast empire thing now is so cool. And he and Lauren, it was emotionally painful because they really were close. And I think this created a feeling of confusion and frostiness. And over time that's healed and I'm really happy. Conan appeared in the Five Timers a couple of seasons ago. It's just nice to see that you.

[Dax Shepard]

Touched on it a little bit. But it launches in 75 and then I guess in 80. He splits.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Does he have a reason why he splits?

[Monica Padman]

At that moment, he just thought snl. Okay, I'll try this. He had always wanted to do this hip variety show, and here in New York they're saying, okay, you can do this at 11:30. One of the reasons he liked the idea is he referred to that time slot as the vacant lot on the edge of town, meaning no network executives are going to pay any attention to it. He can use it almost as a laboratory. No testing because it's live. There's no pilot. He certainly never thought it was going to be a 50 year institution. And over the five years, it got really hard. There were a lot of drugs. It was physically taxing. He starts losing the key parts of his cast. After the first year. Chevy Chase defects and goes to Hollywood. That almost broke his heart.

[Dax Shepard]

He only did one year, one year.

[Monica Padman]

And a few episodes in the second. That was really hard for him because Chevy was like a brother. You know, he calls him a founder of the show. Then he brings in Billy Murray in the second season. But then he loses Belushi and he loses Aykroyd. And so by the end of the fifth year they're all exhausted. What he later learned is, oh, it's like a sports franchise. People move on. Keeps the rookie bench full and you.

[Dax Shepard]

Gotta have them on a seven year contract when they arrive.

[Monica Padman]

But so after five years, he's kind of like, oh, my God, I'm exhausted. I need to regroup. He says to NBC, okay, I'll come back, but you have to give me like six months off to hire a whole new bunch of people. He had months and months to prepare for the first season to hire people and let them mesh and marinate and fall in love. And he felt like he needed to start that whole process over. They were basically, ah, I don't think so. He was totally taken by surprise. He got a phone call one day and said, they're keeping the show on, but they hired someone else to produce it. And he was like, what? Even though he didn't have ownership of it, he sweetly and naively thought of it as his baby. He kind of lost control of it. Flipped him out. But on the other hand, he was exhausted. And this goes back to his grandparents running a movie theater. He always thought that a big part of his career was going to be the movies. So he thought, all right, now I'm going to go off and I'm going to do my Mike Nichols thing. I'm going to direct my version of the Graduate. Seeing the Graduate had been a really seminal experience for him. He idolized Mike Nichols. A lot of people say he's modeled his speech patterns on Mike Nichols, you know, and he and Nichols had a lot in common. They changed their Jewish names, they had these difficult mothers. They came into New York, to use a phrase that I like. They kind of learned how to work the friendship economy, moving their way up. And they were similar, they were close. So Lauren signs a deal with MGM to produce a bunch of movies that completely falls flat. He assigns a lot of his SNL writers, Franken and Davis, Jim Downey, Tom Schiller, to write screenplays. Nothing happens. Partly it's that MGM is in financial mayhem, but partly it doesn't play to his strengths.

[Dax Shepard]

It's not a wheelhouse.

[Monica Padman]

Take a long time. You got a lot of notes from idiots.

[Dax Shepard]

Movies is not a writer's medium. TV is, but not movies.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. One movie got made in that period. Tom Schiller, Nothing Lasts Forever, which was this strange little art film. And Aykroyd and Bill Murray are in it. But the studio thought they were gonna get Animal House. They wanted a big baffo comedy. And here's Lauren kind of doing these little art films. At the same time. He was working on a screenplay of Pride and Prejudice. He had optioned Don DeLillo's White Noise, which Noah Baumbach would make 40 years later. So that was a total disaster. And in 1985, SNL had kind of limped along, but NBC was gonna pull the plug. And then Brandon Tartikoff reached out to Lauren and said, listen, if you'd wanna come back, we would really love you to take the show over again. And he was caught because it was sort of his baby and the movie thing hadn't gone the way he wanted it to, but he had this feeling, which I'm sure with someone as status conscious as Lorne, it felt like God, does it look like I'm going backwards? Does it look like going back with my tail between my legs? And he consulted because his dad died. A lot of rabbis, always a lot of mentor figures. He asked two people for advice. The first one was David Geffen, who was his first agent. And Geffen said to him, you don't want to do that. That's going backwards. Someone who wants to be you should do that job. And Lauren's kind of funny. He said, well, I always kind of liked being me.

[Dax Shepard]

I want to be me.

[Monica Padman]

And then the second person. Person he asked was Mo Austin.

[Dax Shepard]

Who's that?

[Monica Padman]

Mo Austin was the chairman of Warner Records. He was a venerable old Hollywood sage, older than Geffen. And he had this much more practical advice. He said, look, you love New York. There aren't that many big showbiz jobs in New York. This is one. You're really good at it. You like doing it. It's where you want to live. Of course you should do it. And if you think about the psychology of Hollywood and the like, get ahead better, bigger. It was kind of brave, really, to go back. Ye most people wouldn't.

[Dax Shepard]

Their ego would have gotten in the way.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, but he did it.

[Dax Shepard]

When he came back, did he leverage any of that to get now ownership or anything? Did he have a better position when he returned?

[Monica Padman]

Not right in that year, but over the coming years, he brought in some financial people who helped him claw back some of the distribution rights. And he eventually was making more money off of it. Because when he left after the first five years, Buck Henry said to him, so, Lauren, what was your takeaway from this? What piece of it do you own? And Lauren said, nothing.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Monica Padman]

He realized that he wasn't so sad when he came back. So Tartakov said, okay, we want you to Come back. But you can just kind of be this executive in charge and get your own people to run it day to day. And that was a really disastrous season, partly because of the casting. Peacock made a whole documentary about that called the Weird Year. And Lorne already kind of being attuned to the hinges between different eras, he thought, oh, I have to go young. So he hired people who had been in John Hughes movies. You know, he hired Anthony Michael Hall.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, Anthony Michael hall and RDJ Robert.

[Monica Padman]

Downey Jr. And these people didn't really know how to do sketch comedy.

[Dax Shepard]

That wasn't their background.

[Monica Padman]

They were also all way too young. Al Franken said to me, you couldn't do a sketch about a Senate hearing back then because they were all clearly shaving. You know, Frank had also told me that season was so notoriously horrible that years later, like on the Senate floor, Marco Rubio would walk up to and go, al, what the hell happened that season?

[Susan Morrison]

Oh, my God.

[Monica Padman]

The next year, he kind of got back in the groove and he hired that fantastic cast of Dana Carvey. He held over Lovett's back. Phil Hartman.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Jan Hooks. Those people were so great.

[Dax Shepard]

So this was interesting from the book. Everyone thinks the best years of Sarint Live were whatever years they watched in high school.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Which makes total sense. Is there any objective way to evaluate it? I guess you would have ratings as some metric, but can we say what the golden arrows are? Of course, I'm skewed.

[Monica Padman]

What was your high school one?

[Dax Shepard]

Sandler and Chris Farley. And Dana Carvey was still there. And I would argue those were some damn good years in Phil Hartman.

[Monica Padman]

That's so, too. I think I had a great writing staff then. I bet there is a way to look at it, ratings wise. But I think the reason the high school thing is kind of true is that when you're in high school, your emotions, you don't really have any power. It's why when we hear the pop music that was on AM radio when we were in high school, it's so powerful.

[Dax Shepard]

You're awakening to this. That's your first taste of it all.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah. My high school cast was the first cast. I went to the show when I was 16. I went to an Elliott Gould show.

[Dax Shepard]

Wow.

[Monica Padman]

Actually, when I went to see Lauren, after I had sold this book and sprung on him the news that I was gonna write this book about him where he looked like he was gonna have a heart attack before agreeing to talk with me, I told him that I was at that show in 76 which he never knew. And I think it meant a lot to him. People being there at the beginning, from the beginning means something to him. And he's kind of superstitious. It kind of resonated with him.

[Dax Shepard]

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

[Monica Padman]

But now, having this nerdy scholarly interest in the whole thing. My other two favorite cast. Justin Terms of Comedy are the one you're talking about. And also the really cool cast.

[Dax Shepard]

Tina, Amy.

[Monica Padman]

Well, I think Hader, Armisen, Wiig.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Cause I thought they were not only really funny, but they had a kind of a hipness to them.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, that's the UCB vibe coming in.

[Monica Padman]

That's right.

[Dax Shepard]

Groundlings was very broad. Will Ferrell was Groundlings. And then once it went into that UCB zone, starting with Amy.

[Monica Padman]

Why are they hipper?

[Dax Shepard]

It's like they're in a shitty little theater in Manhattan. It's free. You line up. It had a very punk rock vibe.

[Susan Morrison]

Less sketch and more impro. Dangerous. It was very.

[Monica Padman]

You just explained it. I've never understood that.

[Dax Shepard]

As it was explained to me when I got into the growlings. They're like, okay, Second City, they generally will do political stuff. Growlings, we do not do politics. Second City, you don't write your sketches, so you don't own anything. They all own it. But you get paid, so that's a upside. Groundlings, you have to pay to even have your theater time, but you write your own shit and you own everything you do. There it was a binary war for 30 years, and then UCB arrived. It's all improv, or mostly all improv. And everyone looks punk rock and hungover. No one's in costumes, no one's in wigs.

[Susan Morrison]

No, you're wearing a hoodie. You have to. I mean, you don't have to, but you have to. And the method there is the game of improv. So it's actually very intellectual. There is sketch there, and people are doing big characters. But that's not the cool part of ucb.

[Dax Shepard]

The.

[Susan Morrison]

Exactly. And I worked there and I did ucb. I was so into it, and you felt so cool.

[Dax Shepard]

They're all cults.

[Monica Padman]

This is a book somebody should write. I mean, about the cults, and thought about how each of them had their own distinct contribution and economic model. One of the things that was interesting about the Kids in the hall, which weren't produced, is that those guys somehow negotiated to own their characters. Like Dana Carvey doesn't own.

[Dax Shepard]

This is some of the drama we could get into. Because I think over the Years, I've watched different alumni from Saturday Night Live have their movie careers, and some had Lauren produce stuff and some didn't. Famously, Mike Myers didn't do certain characters. You can do them once on the show and you own them, but if you do them twice.

[Monica Padman]

Oh, you know, I don't know. That's so interesting. That's for the next edition.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I'd always heard Mike Myers intentionally didn't do Austin Powers on stage, even though he had the character, because he didn't want Lauren to own it. He wanted to be able to go because he had done Wayne's and he wanted to go be on his own.

[Monica Padman]

That's very smart. Some of these people just are so canny. It reminds me of how Dana Carvey told me he knew that his sketches were gonna play better if he did them on home base because you're closer to the audience reaction. You can see their eyes. They can see your eyes. And so he would always go and cozy up to the designers to make sure they would put his sketch there. You don't want your sketch to be in the corner under the bleachers where the audience can't actually see them. So all these different. But that mic thing, I didn't know that.

[Dax Shepard]

What's the Sandler story?

[Monica Padman]

In the mid-90s. And a lot of people didn't know this was a fun thing to be able to write about in the book. It was the one time when Lauren almost lost the show. He was almost fired.

[Dax Shepard]

On what grounds?

[Monica Padman]

He said it was the first time in the history of the show that the critics who were really dumping on the show and the network executives who were also dumping on the show. We're on the same side. He recognized after that whole bad Anthony Michael hall season that he had to keep the cast current with what was really going on in the world. So he replenished that Carvey Hartman cast. He brought in Sandler and Farley and Spade. This was a whole different feeling. These were lads.

[Dax Shepard]

They were almost fratty.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah, they were fratty and bratty. And Phil Hartman is almost like John Barrymore by comparison. You know, a whole different thing. And a lot of the boomers were still in charge. They ran NBC. They were the critics for magazines. They didn't like this new thing. They thought it was too many sketches about anal probes and everything.

[Dax Shepard]

Sure, sure, sure. I love taking moral high ground in sketch comedy. That's wonderful.

[Monica Padman]

The network started rolling up its sleeve and think, we have to get in here and fix snl because the critics were dumping on it. And they also were kind of riding high because they had friends, they had Seinfeld. They were like, we know better. Don Ohmyer was the sort of head of this cabal. They basically said, you got to fire Farley. You got to fire Sandler and a bunch of the writers. And at that point, Lorne, again, it's his sort of Game of Thrones instinct for how to ride it out. He just realized, okay, I'm just gonna roll over. He was a new father. He was kind of overwhelmed. I think he saw the writing on the wall that he wasn't gonna win.

[Dax Shepard]

He was like, 20 years in at that point.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

And the other thing that happened around that time is they started quietly interviewing other people, thinking about possibly replacing Lorne. One of the people they talked to was Judd Apatow, who was in his mid-20s. He had just been running the Ben Stiller show, which was a great show that was completely underappreciated by Fox and then canceled. So Judd gets this call from Warren Littlefield and these executives about a job at snl. They're very vague about what it is. And he was one of these nerds who taped and transcribed the show.

[Susan Morrison]

No one more obsessed with comedy.

[Monica Padman]

You know, Sandler was his roommate.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Monica Padman]

Sandler was on the show. So think how hard that must have been for him. He called some of the people at the show to try to figure out what was going on. He even met with Lauren a couple of times. But Lauren strategically didn't fuss and just acted like nothing was happening. And Judd and I think some of the other people there was also this comedy writer named Adam Resnick who they approached. Those guys realized, well, wait, there's something kind of screwy here. Cause they're kind of like, wink, wink, hint, hint. Maybe one day you could take over. But it was so not above board and so sleazy that I quote Judd in the book saying, it seems so disrespectful. Disrespectful of Lauren's captaining of his ship. He just wanted nothing to do with it, so he just said, no, thanks.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, wow. Good for him.

[Monica Padman]

And same with Adam Resnick. And Lauren just kind of wrote it out. And the number of administrations, of NBC executives outlasted.

[Dax Shepard]

He's almost like the Queen of England. Like when you're watching the Crown, and she's like, you're my third prime minister.

[Monica Padman]

Exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

I will be here after you're gone.

[Monica Padman]

As Jud says, right after that, he went and he picked one of the best casts ever. The great Will Ferrell cast Sandler and Farley had to be let go. And he handled it in a very careful way.

[Dax Shepard]

They didn't just leave.

[Monica Padman]

It had been decreed that they had to go. Lorne, in his style of avoiding all confrontation, you know, never wanted to have blood on his hands or anything. Basically, Sandy Wernick, who managed Sandler, word of this was out and about. Wernick picks up the phone and says to Lauren, like, you know, if you want, we could have Adam do another season, but maybe you should just pursue this Happy Gilmore thing. And it was kind of like, wink, wink. It was all arranged so they didn't actually have to be fired. Everybody knew, but they were encouraged.

[Susan Morrison]

Oh, wow.

[Monica Padman]

So it was a complicated jiu jitsu thing, but when Sandler hosted a few years ago, he sang this funny song about how he got fired. It's now kind of out in the open, but back then it was papered over. One of the delicious ironies of this is that Don Ohlmeyer, the guy who forced Lauren to fire Lorne, was just kind of ahead of the curve there. He knew that this kind of comedy was coming. A year or two later, oh, Meyer calls him and he says, you know, I was wrong about Sandler. Could you get me a print of Billy Madison to show at my kid's birthday party?

[Dax Shepard]

Really what you'll do for your kids? You'll eat crow.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah, true.

[Monica Padman]

Conan says there's a Game of Thrones of show business. Lauren's gonna be the winner. And after the nuclear apocalypse, all life forms will be wiped out. But Lauren will be there in his office talking to the cockroaches and saying, like, I see you as a jevy cockroach. He just has that instinct.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, it's wild. What's beating it as far as longevity? 60 minutes maybe has been on longer.

[Monica Padman]

The Tonight Show's been on longer as a franchise, but it's the longest running entertainment show that there is.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Susan Morrison]

50 years.

[Dax Shepard]

Every year I've been alive. Well, I love the book. I hope you take this as a compliment. It reads like a New Yorker article. It's so fast moving and every sentence is just packed with all this rich detail. Even his fucking death. If you're describing his office. There's a story about the desk, but it's done in three sentences. You're just getting so much. It's very dense in the most satisfying way. I really, really love it. Yeah, it's fantastic. It's out. I hope everyone reads it. It's so interesting. Every page. You're like, ooh, that's juicy. Ooh, that's juicy.

[Susan Morrison]

What an institution to be able to delve in. And really cool.

[Monica Padman]

When I was doing it, I'd never written a biography. I realized you want to avoid it being like this death march through the years. This year goes to that year, it goes to that season. That's when something cl. I'm like, oh, I should think about my background as a magazine journalist. So I did this thing where I spent a whole week there. And interspersed in the book are these chapters of different days of the week. And so you have this kind of propulsion towards Saturday.

[Susan Morrison]

Like Hunger Games.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Monica Padman]

So by the time you get to the end of the book, people tell me that they're reading the Saturday chapter and their heart is pounding.

[Susan Morrison]

Ah, that's awesome.

[Dax Shepard]

Have you heard from Lauren what he thinks of the book?

[Monica Padman]

I heard from Lauren a couple weeks ago. He came to my book party in the city at David Remnick's house, which was really nice, and he spent a lot of time there talking to all the nerdy New Yorker people. He told me he hasn't brought himself to read it yet.

[Dax Shepard]

I find that hard to believe, but go ahead.

[Monica Padman]

Well, I did see someone last night who was really close to him who said, I think he's read it. Yeah, I could see it both ways. What a weird existential thing to be like reading your life between the covers of this book. I can see that might be scary, but on the other hand, you think that just in a pure curiosity.

[Susan Morrison]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

So you have taken the time to document his. His whole journey in a way that he himself probably hasn't constructed. There's no way. If you spent 10 years writing a book about me, I'm not reading it.

[Monica Padman]

He did say, I'll read it also. Very sweet. He'll sort of let me know when various of his fancy friends have read it. He said, candice Bergen just called me and she read it and she said it was great. Wonderful.

[Dax Shepard]

Wonderful.

[Susan Morrison]

That's awesome.

[Monica Padman]

You know, the reason I wanted to write about him is because so little was known about him. The way I handled it was I approached him only after I had sold the. Which I think meant something to him because he wouldn't have ever wanted it to look like he wanted this vanity project about himself. Of course, Lauren is so smart that, as I say in the acknowledgments, he never wanted a book inflicted upon him. I think in a way, he would have preferred to just sidestep this whole thing, but he's smart. Enough to appreciate that this is like a real book, a real work of journalism. It isn't a hagiography and that people are gonna take it seriously. So that takes his legacy more seriously.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, I think so much of the interest is we all, we all have such a fondness for snl and it's been a part of so many of our coming of age that you want to know how all that happened.

[Monica Padman]

You were talking about the principles of comedy. Some of them are even just like little practical things he'll say in a sketch. If a man arrives to pick a woman up for a date, don't have him bring her flowers, have him bring her chocolates. The reason for that is if he brings her flowers, then the audience is gonna go like, oh, now she has to find a vase that takes you out of the moment. All these little technical things. So there's a way you could distill a kind of how to guide.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Well, I love that. I hope everyone reads it. Thanks so much for coming in.

[Monica Padman]

It's really fun.

[Dax Shepard]

And we'll talk to you in 10 years when you write your next book.

[Susan Morrison]

Okay.

[Monica Padman]

I might be napping till then.

[Susan Morrison]

Stay tuned for the fact check.

[Monica Padman]

It's where the party's at.

[Susan Morrison]

Hello.

[Dax Shepard]

Look at these old new shoes.

[Susan Morrison]

They're new.

[Dax Shepard]

They look like Grammy. Like they're really worn in Grammys.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah, they look like slippers. They're like a moccasin.

[Dax Shepard]

Tweed slippers.

[Susan Morrison]

I wouldn't say tweed.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, don't say tweed. Were you a little drowsy when I first.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah, I'm sleepy today.

[Dax Shepard]

Just because it's a little gloomy and overcasty.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah. And we Normally record at 11 and it's 10.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Crack ass.

[Susan Morrison]

That changes my whole morning.

[Dax Shepard]

What time did you wake up?

[Susan Morrison]

Eight. I cannot wake up before eight. I keep, I keep setting my alarm for seven. I keep trying.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Can I. Can I advise you on something?

[Monica Padman]

Sure.

[Dax Shepard]

Don't fight it and feel bad about it because the, the converse situation is the one I'm in was like, I can't sleep past six hours. I would pay a shocking amount of money to be able to do it.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Don't hate it.

[Susan Morrison]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Cuz it likely as you get older it'll probably be harder.

[Susan Morrison]

I know.

[Dax Shepard]

And you be like, why can't I just sleep till 8?

[Susan Morrison]

Well, I know part of the issue is I don't fall asleep till late.

[Dax Shepard]

What time did you fall asleep last night? And were you watching one of your medical drama?

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah, this is a problem. I don't know what time?

[Dax Shepard]

How many episodes of ER are there?

[Susan Morrison]

Oh, great question.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Susan Morrison]

I mean each season has like 22 episodes.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Susan Morrison]

And hour long.

[Dax Shepard]

There's what, a dozen seasons of that show or something?

[Susan Morrison]

There's so many. Let's see.

[Dax Shepard]

I mean it's no grays, but it's no parenthood either.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah. It went on for a long time.

[Dax Shepard]

331.

[Susan Morrison]

33115 seasons.

[Dax Shepard]

Whoa.

[Susan Morrison]

I'm not gonna watch all of them. I'm just. I want to. I want to set the expectations.

[Dax Shepard]

Why not? Do you see the thing I sent you though? That it's a good medication?

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah, you sent me the thing we already knew but was proven yet again that people who re watch things, it helps regulate their anxiety.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I gotta to tell you, there's a big disturbance in my fragile little spoiled world.

[Susan Morrison]

Oh, okay. Let's hear it.

[Dax Shepard]

There's. There's a lot of articles coming out that perhaps cold plunging is not good for you.

[Susan Morrison]

Really?

[Dax Shepard]

Well, minimally that it shuts down like the inflammation you need for muscle growth and repair. And so if you're cold plunging while lifting, you're basically neutralizing it. And I know it's different at different temperatures and different age groups and everything. And I had always been going like, yeah, but lane said above 50 it's still. But then I just more and more keep coming out.

[Monica Padman]

Oh.

[Dax Shepard]

And I'm incentivized to believe them because I hate cold plunging.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah, exactly.

[Dax Shepard]

It's miserable.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah. I don't like it. I don't do it.

[Dax Shepard]

But you do get the dopamine thing. That's inarguable.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah, but it's like elevated dopes. Just for a minute.

[Dax Shepard]

No, no, for a long time.

[Susan Morrison]

Well, that's why it's a good say.

[Dax Shepard]

That'S what the most trusted Stanford I think is placebo. Okay.

[Susan Morrison]

Okay. I do want to, you know, really quick.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I've noticed on listening back to some episodes that I have a bad habit now of like plaquing my. My teeth. And it really sounds at time. Do you ever hear it, Rob? Yeah. Yeah, I bet I knew he would. It sounds like I have dentures. Like did you have any grandparents with Denis?

[Susan Morrison]

Yes, but late, late in life, like really late in life.

[Dax Shepard]

Bob had Denis and I want to say Pippi had Denis. And there's a lot of clacking going on with dentures. Cuz like the gums are getting separated from it. So the gums are. The plastic teeth are clacking. There's a lot of clacking.

[Susan Morrison]

But are you saying you do like what you just did, like on purpose or you're saying on accident?

[Dax Shepard]

It's like I, I sometimes punctuate like.

[Susan Morrison]

Oh yeah you do. That's fine though.

[Dax Shepard]

And, and I can hear it, which I never. I think it's gotten either louder or I've picked up the pace on the clack, clack, clacking. And I just was like, this is, I gotta, I gotta curb this. Cause it sounds like I have dentures. Speaking of which. Okay, I gotta be very delicate about this. We had a server. My kids were like, he left dad. What, what is going with his teeth? And I'm like, oh, I don't know. I didn't even notice. And then I gave them a good examination and they were dentures and the thing was interesting and I don't know if this was true of my pop up ops dentures, they don't do individual teeth, they just draw a line.

[Susan Morrison]

And why do they do that?

[Dax Shepard]

I know. Why can't they just like in the mold, put some dental floss between, just make a tiny gap. Yeah, because it looks more like a bite guard for a boxer.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah. It's just one whole piece of mouth.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. But the silver lining and optimism of the story is it occurred to me my kids had never, ever, ever seen dentures. That's the progress we're making. When I was a kid, Most people over 60 had dentures. Every other commercial on TV was for Fix a dent to adhere your dentures to your gums. And different toothpastes that addressed in soaks for your dentures. Like it was just standard biz. Everyone, oh my God lost all their teeth mid century. And this. My kids are now. Lincoln's been on the planet for 12 years and that was her first set of Denis.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah. I mean I think maybe the progress happened in between you and I, cuz I don't remember this. Only when someone's in their like 80s did I see it. Not 60s.

[Dax Shepard]

And you'd regularly like you had to deal with seeing your grandparents without their dentures in. Like you'd catch them in the morning and stuff. You don't sleep with them in and it radically changes their face. Right. Their whole mouth is like sunken in.

[Susan Morrison]

Yes.

[Dax Shepard]

And you're like, oh, that's not my dad. You know, like, like delty.

[Susan Morrison]

My tiredness is a ding, ding, ding.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh great.

[Susan Morrison]

When I was on my trip with Cali.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Susan Morrison]

There was a big event. No. God no. Although it might have been preferred to this maybe. Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Susan Morrison]

So we had two beds, but Shared a room. And I woke up probably at 8 and Callie was already awake. She wakes up early.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, she's now been trained by this child.

[Susan Morrison]

Exactly. So she was up and she said she was like waiting for me to wake up. I woke up and she was like, I have something to tell you. I was so scared. And she said you were talking in your sleep.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, you were talking in your sleep.

[Susan Morrison]

No one wants to hear that.

[Dax Shepard]

No, it could be anything.

[Susan Morrison]

It could be anything.

[Dax Shepard]

You could be having. I have dream. I mean I have dreams where I murder people. Where I hook up with.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

My father. You know, like I have horrific nightmares of every variety.

[Susan Morrison]

Daddy.

[Monica Padman]

Har.

[Dax Shepard]

Don't you dare say that.

[Susan Morrison]

So. So anyway, I was really scared of what was happen. Yes. And she said you kept calling someone a dumb. And that was shocking. That is not minus when I would joke about that. About w. Joking. She's not a dumb bitch. That was joke. That is not something that comes out of my mouth ever.

[Dax Shepard]

Like you usually say that with your eyes. Well, be honest. No, that's your eye roll.

[Susan Morrison]

That's not.

[Dax Shepard]

You have the sentiment of dumb in your heart a lot.

[Susan Morrison]

How dare you.

[Dax Shepard]

It's true.

[Susan Morrison]

No, cuz dumb is really hateful. Like I don't think I have much hate in my heart. You do.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, no, I think like the woman at the drop off at the preschool. I think you were thinking dumb.

[Susan Morrison]

No, I wasn't.

[Dax Shepard]

I was like, get off my back, you dumb.

[Susan Morrison]

No, no, I don't think like that. I did, I did think, oh, people like, it's like g, you're annoying or I don't like you.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Susan Morrison]

But I wouldn't, I would never. I don't think of people as being a dumb bitch.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Susan Morrison]

It's a bad phrase. It is pretty extreme. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

I can't think of the last time I thought dumb bitch.

[Susan Morrison]

It's bad. Like if I heard somebody calling somebody else that I would think that's a lot.

[Dax Shepard]

Right. Right.

[Susan Morrison]

Anyway, apparently I was calling someone a bitch.

[Dax Shepard]

I feel like what women who are jealous of another girl are saying like that's it. It takes that to elicit that. Like he thinks this dumb bitch is like. It's a lot of. I've always heard a lot of dumb bitch towards some other girl.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

When there's a guy involved. Do you know any dumb bitches?

[Susan Morrison]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Susan Morrison]

I only know smart bitches. But yeah. So it was a little. And she said she was like. It was so weird to hear you say that.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. And what was happening.

[Susan Morrison]

And then I Did put two and two together. I did have a bad dream about this trip. Trickster.

[Dax Shepard]

Fictitious person.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah, she was a fictitious person. She was blonde, but I didn't know her. But she was like. She came around and she was tricking everyone, and I must have been calling her a dumb or someone who got tricked by her. No, no.

[Dax Shepard]

That'd be more apropos.

[Susan Morrison]

No, no, no. Those were my friends. It was, like, all of us.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, but if you get tricked, you're dumb.

[Susan Morrison]

No, you're not. No, you're not. You probably think the best of people.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Yeah, you're probably. It's probably a symbol of your goodness.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah. So anyway, I think it was about her. And then I was so scared to go to sleep the next night, I was like, what am I gonna say now?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Susan Morrison]

And this opens up a real question, like, if you are ra. If you say something racist in your dream.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Susan Morrison]

Are you racist?

[Dax Shepard]

No.

[Susan Morrison]

What if?

[Dax Shepard]

Well, the question is, what if? And I would say no.

[Susan Morrison]

Really?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. You're not. You don't say dumb bitch.

[Susan Morrison]

I know, but am I. Turns out I'm a person who said it. Like, what if I said, this is horrifying. What if I said, like, the N word? I've literally. I never said it.

[Dax Shepard]

You've never said it in your whole life?

[Susan Morrison]

No.

[Dax Shepard]

Even, like, in a lyric in a rap song when you're young, singing along.

[Susan Morrison]

Okay, so what if I said it in my dream state?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Susan Morrison]

I would hate that.

[Dax Shepard]

I would be. If I somehow overheard, like, let's say this. You. You often will do your homework on the porch of my house. No, the. The deck. And you're out in the sun, and you got drowsy, and then I'm walking by to go, and you're out cold, and I heard that.

[Susan Morrison]

Oh, my God.

[Dax Shepard]

I mean, if I'm being fully honest, I probably would be like, well, good. She doesn't have the moral high ground on everything anymore. She said something nasty, too. Look at this. She said something nasty. That would probably be my most.

[Susan Morrison]

That's your issue.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, that's why I preface it by saying I might think, oh, well, look who's not perfect. And then I'd be relieved that you're human too.

[Susan Morrison]

I'm not parading around as being perfect. I just don't. I. I don't say that. And that's okay.

[Dax Shepard]

For sure, you don't. Of course you don't say that. And I. I don't say that.

[Susan Morrison]

But are you sure.

[Dax Shepard]

You can. I'm sure I could come up with an analogy that you would relate to greatly. I know if I was doing something that I somehow have the moral high ground on, but then you caught me not. You might be going, oh, well, okay. Right.

[Susan Morrison]

No, yeah, I. I do know what you mean, but I don't think. I think that's kind of a not generous way. Way. Like, like you're. That's kind of like, oh, I caught her being bad.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, exactly. That would be the fun of it, right? Like, it'd be like if you thought I was shaming you all the time for eating sugar. Right. And I was like, I don't know why, you know that sugar is poison. And then you turned a corner and I was shoving birthday cake in my mouth. You go, oh, okay. Oh, look at this.

[Susan Morrison]

I would. I would be like. Like this hypocrite.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, well, I mean, that's the side of another hypocrite.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah. But I want.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, the end of the day is if I heard you say that in your sleep. At no point am I thinking, you're right. You're not racist. I already know you.

[Susan Morrison]

I'll tell you now that if you hear me saying that in my sleep, I would like you to wake me up. I don't want to be smack you.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, you said a naughty word.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah, you're bad. You should go to jail.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Susan Morrison]

You dumb. Yeah, so. So anyway, I'm scared. What if I'm talking in my sleep every night? I don't know.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, you probably are. I would also chalk it up to. I mean, I would give you ultimate benefit of the doubt. Right. I'd be more likely to construct some really crazy thing and I would probably more likely think in some weird way you're waiting to be called that word.

[Susan Morrison]

Mm, interesting. Oh, the N word.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And that somehow that weird thing is like, has burbled out of your mouth in your subconscious.

[Susan Morrison]

It was wild.

[Dax Shepard]

You wanna talk about the fire cart?

[Susan Morrison]

Oh, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

So Easter was like a triple header. Yeah, it was Easter he has risen celebration. It was Molly's birthday celebration and it was Millie's birthday celebration. A lot going on. And as people would be well aware, there was a lot of fires. Eric and Molly's house was very much in the zone. Often their area is on fire. They're in a very high fire area.

[Susan Morrison]

They are.

[Dax Shepard]

And Eric felt overpowered while he was trying to defend his house with a garden hose. And he did a lot of research and he has gone out and bought an industrial commercial grade water pump cart that has a very big gas engine. On it. And a huge hose you put in your pool and then a fire hose. Andy has a respirator. And as he learned, people that fight the fire, what takes them out is the fumes. They don't get burnt, generally, they get the fumes.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And for whatever reason, it was time for a demonstration. In the middle of this Easter, he.

[Susan Morrison]

Was really excited to present to us his fire cart. And he got in his full outfit before.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, he got in his full outfit. He's got a full firefighters outfit. He's got his respirator on. He already has his respirator on before. He's trying to start this enormous thing. He's got these big pitchers of water, and he's priming the pump.

[Susan Morrison]

And then he.

[Dax Shepard]

He, you know, he gets it started, but one of the hoses is loose and now, you know, spraying everything. We shut down the thing in a panic. And then all the while, with this huge mask on, you can barely see.

[Susan Morrison]

I know. It's really cool.

[Dax Shepard]

And then he gets the hose attached correctly, and then he fires it up, and then he lets it rip. And it's a real fire hose.

[Susan Morrison]

It's really something. Like, it goes really far.

[Dax Shepard]

Hundreds of feet.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And with all blessings, it did appear he lost control of it for a minute.

[Susan Morrison]

It almost went in the house.

[Monica Padman]

Well.

[Dax Shepard]

Because he started spraying the deck where we were all hanging out.

[Susan Morrison]

We were all out there. All our cell phones were out there. There were these glass.

[Dax Shepard]

Glass vases everywhere with flowers. Those almost went down.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And then he. He got. He wrangled control of it, and he got out, and he was shooting out.

[Susan Morrison]

Like, he kind of felt like he thought it was a sprinkler. Like, he was, like, behaving as if it was a sprinkler. Like, he's just, like, kind of waving.

[Dax Shepard]

Watering the plant.

[Susan Morrison]

Yes. But unfort but no, there's some real.

[Dax Shepard]

Force to that psi.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

It was spectacular. It's those kind of gifts that Eric gives our pod all the time.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And I think he's a mix of in on it and out of. You know, he's a mix of in on the joke. He knows he's hamming it up a little bit, but also, it's also sincere enough that it works. It's really fun. It's a real gift he gives to everyone.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

You never know what. What thing he'll.

[Susan Morrison]

You never know what he's going to.

[Dax Shepard]

Bring, what centric thing he's doing.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah. It's nice to think about the things in your friendship Circle or your friends that are very unique to them, and you can have gratitude for that.

[Dax Shepard]

He's just very little boy.

[Susan Morrison]

He is such a little boy. We have a lot of little boys.

[Dax Shepard]

Are we all little boys?

[Susan Morrison]

You think all the. All the men are little boys?

[Dax Shepard]

That's possible.

[Susan Morrison]

I mean, maybe all the men in the world are little boys in some way. I mean, I guess we're all just little people.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, we are. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

[Susan Morrison]

Speaking of. Good boy. Little boys.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. So we. I asked. Oh, I'll just read the whole thing.

[Susan Morrison]

We had an encounter with AI.

[Dax Shepard]

I asked it, oh, how long do copyrights last for books? Because I was talking about the fact that you can download on Audible some Mark Twain books narrated by famous people, and they're free.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And then when you and I were discussing that, and I said, yeah, I think it's public domain. So we asked. I said, how long. Oh, how long do copyrights last? Ask for books. I won't give you the answer because it's so complex and detailed, and it was a wonderful answer. It really was informative. So I said, thanks so much. That was a great answer. You're a good boy. And I had primarily done that to make you laugh.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And then it said, oh, thank you. That made my day. Always happy to help, especially when I'm being a good boy. Let me know what else you need.

[Susan Morrison]

I hated it.

[Dax Shepard]

You hate it.

[Susan Morrison]

I hate it, and I love it. And I'm surprised by you, because you were manipulating. You were just taken advantage of and manipulated emotionally. The thing you claim to hate the most. Talk about hypocrisy. I just don't know. I don't know how to nail you down. He totally. He's a faker.

[Dax Shepard]

Hold on, though, because I do think this is relevant.

[Susan Morrison]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

We would agree there's a difference between when someone knowingly lies to you and when someone believes what they're telling you. Do you think it's possible that the AI thinks it's. No. Oh, hold on. What? You won't even let me figure.

[Susan Morrison]

I know what I. Okay, go on.

[Dax Shepard]

Is it possible, since I referred to the AI as a boy, that it thinks, oh, I'm a boy?

[Susan Morrison]

No, I don't. And I don't think it should say, oh, thank you.

[Dax Shepard]

I mean, that's a. That's deep. I don't even know to do that when I mean that in writing. Right. Like, I want to say that. Like, oh, my gosh. Thank you. Sometimes you want to say, oh, my gosh yeah. And maybe I do, but Oz. Great.

[Susan Morrison]

I used to say it's kind of rudimentary, if I'm being honest.

[Dax Shepard]

Basic.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah, it's basic.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Susan Morrison]

It's a basic dumb bitch thing to do.

[Dax Shepard]

Especially when I be.

[Susan Morrison]

I really. I really think that's way too emotional.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, I love it. Just thinks it's so. It's so weird and funny.

[Susan Morrison]

Someone's going to really, like, fall like this. They're going to develop a friendship with him.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you think there's any risk of me falling in love with the AI? I mean, in all honesty, no.

[Susan Morrison]

But it's not. It's not about you.

[Monica Padman]

The.

[Susan Morrison]

This. This feeling I have is not about you. It's about the world. Like, there's a lot of vulnerable people out there. And they're going to read, oh, thank you. I'm. It's nice to be a good boy. And then they're like, oh, this is so cute. And then they're gonna keep talking and keep. And it's gonna snowball, and then they'll die.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, all right.

[Susan Morrison]

Evades. No, but you know what I mean. Can you just tell me, you know what I mean? That it's a little slippery.

[Dax Shepard]

You have a fear that there are certain people that will be taken advantage of by that. But then I just play out some young person with disabilities. Okay. Because that's presumably. Who could get tricked by this. Your average. No one thinks that that's a. There's a good boy.

[Susan Morrison]

It's not as explicit as that. It's not like, oh, I now think that's a person. It's. It's subconscious. You just start developing a relationship.

[Dax Shepard]

Great. So I think of someone who. Who has the real feeling you're describing. Like, oh, okay, now that person that has that feeling, aw, that's a good feeling for them. And then they respond, and they probably don't have access to that at work or in their romantic relationship. And so do I hate that the person's having the swell of oxytocin with a computer or if their just real experience was pleasurable. So if we stop there, I don't have a problem with that. And then you would likely say, well, now, what if that is at the expense of real relationships? Well, then, then there's a problem. If. If the person is so satiated and getting so much connection that they no longer explore real human relationships, that's a problem. But I. I'm not. I have a hard time believing that is the case.

[Susan Morrison]

It's already happening.

[Dax Shepard]

I think the person that would be having this relationship with this phone isn't losing out to other ones. I don't think they have any other ones, and I don't think it's actually. So I think you're, if you look at the net result, it's not like they gained an AI friend and lost a real friend. I think they had zero friends and now they have an AI friend. So to me, that seems like probably an improvement.

[Susan Morrison]

I, I, I definitely disagree. Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

I respect and honor your disagreement.

[Susan Morrison]

For the younger generation, they aren't, it's not like, it's not about losing. Like, for our age, yes, you'd be trading in. But for the younger generation, if you're just growing up with that, you just don't make the time. For the real people. It's not, it's not even like, it's not an active choice. It's, it's happening, it's happening with kids on YouTube and kids on screens and kids just going home and, and sometimes chatting with their friend or, you know, snap or whatever. I don't know. I'm not hip. I'm not hip.

[Dax Shepard]

My space.

[Susan Morrison]

But, like, they don't go out. And it is true. Like, even, even I know someone in college and I told you, I, I was like, we were, we went to Athens and we were out on, like, a night that would have been a crazy night normally.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Susan Morrison]

And it was kind of dead, and we were all like, what's going on? This is so weird. And, and we know someone in college there. So we were asking, and she, and she was kind of like, yeah, people don't really do that as much anymore. And sometimes there, there's house parties instead, but, but also, like, it just felt weird.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Susan Morrison]

And, and I think when this is an option, it's an easy option for connection.

[Dax Shepard]

Do you think you could fall victim to it?

[Susan Morrison]

Not now, but maybe I could have at some point. I mean, I don't know. I don't think it's discriminatory. I think most people can be manipulated emotionally, and we all have been by social media. Look at, look at our phones.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Yeah. I think I'm inclined to grant everyone the same opinion that I have of myself. You know what I'm saying? I'm not inclined to go, like, I can handle it, but someone else can't. In general, if I'm saying I can handle something, I feel like I have to kind of grant everyone else that I can't feel like I have some kind of special skill set that would prevent me, but not other people. Does that make sense?

[Susan Morrison]

Well, yes and, and no. Like, we all have different abilities and skill sets based on our lives. Like, you're saying you can handle reading the comments. You're not saying everyone can handle reading the comments.

[Dax Shepard]

But I'm not assuming they can't. You know what I'm saying?

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah, but you understand that people can't.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, I do. Yes, I do. So.

[Susan Morrison]

So it's not.

[Dax Shepard]

It's.

[Susan Morrison]

We're not all the same.

[Dax Shepard]

We're not all the same. You're right.

[Susan Morrison]

I am right.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, but you're right that we're not all the same.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah. And we have different strengths and weaknesses. We can handle different things.

[Dax Shepard]

But I do think, like, evaluating yourself as somehow capable and others aren't is a little dicey.

[Susan Morrison]

But Dax, I can be in a group of. Of people and have them say a bad plan, and I can do it. You can't. We're different.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, yeah.

[Susan Morrison]

If I was like, well, you should be able to do this because I can do this, that would be crazy. You have a different life experience that has let you.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Susan Morrison]

And let me have different allowances.

[Dax Shepard]

The little bit of distinction I think is in there is that you know me very well. Well, sure, but we're not talking about a specific person who can't handle this AI conversation. We're. We're talking about a theoretical mass of people, you know?

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah, but a mass of people is made of individual people with individual.

[Dax Shepard]

You have a right to assess my shortcomings.

[Susan Morrison]

Uhhuh.

[Dax Shepard]

Because you know me really well and you know my shortcomings and I've told you my shortcomings. But guessing at everyone else's or thinking something shouldn't be available because your assumption is other people can't. I think that's where it's murky, I guess.

[Susan Morrison]

I don't know what to say. Like, we all know. We all know the impact of what a lot of this stuff at this point, it has done. Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

This is an extreme example, but this is like, in my mind, it's the guys I've known who are cheating.

[Susan Morrison]

Uhhuh.

[Dax Shepard]

And they, they know in their mind, it's very compartmentalized. They're not in love with this person. It was a flint. You know, it was a one night stand. And then if their girlfriend has. Does the same thing, well, their girlfriend couldn't possibly be compartmentalizing and, and, and processing it the way I am. So they're not allowed to because they're not capable because I'm a man and I can. That it can mean nothing to me, but it can't mean nothing to a girl. I know so many dudes who were cheating and were ultra jealous.

[Susan Morrison]

Right.

[Dax Shepard]

And I was like, we can't do that. You have to minimally in this behavior grant your partner the same ability. If you can do it and she shouldn't be upset, she should be able to do it. Right?

[Susan Morrison]

Well, yeah, that's an extreme example, but.

[Dax Shepard]

That'S what I'm, that's what I'm like approaching in this. That make sense? Like when you think you could do or handle something but your assumption is the, the broad mass can't. It feels a little bit like that thing to me.

[Susan Morrison]

Okay, well, I, I don't think so.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Does that make sense though, what I'm saying?

[Susan Morrison]

Kind of. I, I, I think there's a lot to that piece of the cheating. I mean what happens is they get cheated on and it hurts.

[Dax Shepard]

Right.

[Susan Morrison]

And then they have, then they're mad and it's, then they're emotional. Like it's not really that they're like thinking about how that other person is compartmental. They're just upset.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, but they would with the straight face and they'd be right. They would look at their, their girlfriend and say that didn't mean anything. That was a one night stand in Cleveland. It didn't mean anything.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah, sure.

[Dax Shepard]

And they believe that and that is true.

[Susan Morrison]

They believe it to get through. Might not be true. It might not be true.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't know. I don't know. I know a lot of guys have hooked up with girls on a vacation. They don't pine for them or think about them afterwards. They' was just for sex. And then if their girlfriend says the exact same thing happened, they can't compute that that's possible for her.

[Susan Morrison]

I think it's more that they're upset, they've been betrayed and then they might make it about.

[Dax Shepard]

I just think you've lost the right to that. If you're sure.

[Susan Morrison]

Obviously. Yeah, you've definitely lost the right to it. But I think in their head they're, they think, oh, it's just nothing. But then when they feel it, they're like, oh, it's, it's something. Yeah, it is something. Does it mean anything like make it better? Yeah, it doesn't make it better for me.

[Dax Shepard]

It should. If you're evaluating whether your partner is in deeply in love with somebody and distracted all the time and versus they hooked up drunk in New Jersey one night six months ago, I think those are pretty dramatic.

[Susan Morrison]

They're different and they're all bad. But I think. Think one. I think, weirdly, if I. If my partner was in love with someone but choosing to be with me, like, was still wanted me.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Susan Morrison]

But fell in love with someone. I actually understand that more than like, you made a. You didn't.

[Monica Padman]

You're.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. Because you don't want to. A stranger.

[Susan Morrison]

Well, it's just like, you're so horny that you decided to put this all at risk for not.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Susan Morrison]

Like, I'd rather you put it at risk because there's something really happening.

[Dax Shepard]

Interesting. Like.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Susan Morrison]

It's yourself. You're just like, I'll just go. This person knowing. Like.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, because it's kind of like, it doesn't mean anything to me. It's not a threat to us. Because I don't. I'm not even going to think about it again.

[Susan Morrison]

But it is a threat because if. If the. If I found out, I'd be like. I might be like, bye. Like, it, It.

[Monica Padman]

It.

[Susan Morrison]

You know, if. If it's.

[Dax Shepard]

I know what you're saying.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. You're risking me for something you don't even care about. Right.

[Susan Morrison]

That's so like, to me, that's. That's a super valid regard.

[Dax Shepard]

It's a super valid perspective for your side of it.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

And then I think a very valid perspective on the other side is like, this doesn't mean anything. This has nothing to do with us. It was one night. I'll never see the person again.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah. Anyway.

[Dax Shepard]

Anyhow.

[Susan Morrison]

Okay, well, I don't think we have time to do my second story, so wait till next.

[Dax Shepard]

No, no. What's your second story?

[Susan Morrison]

No, because.

[Dax Shepard]

Because why?

[Susan Morrison]

Because we don't have time. I'll save my story for next time. And I have another one to add to my list.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, my God. Do you need a pen? Rob.

[Susan Morrison]

Rob, Add David Chang to the list.

[Monica Padman]

David Chang. Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

That's a delicious.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah. Okay. Now this is for Susan Morrison.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Susan Morrison]

Lorne Michaels book.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Susan Morrison]

So fun. I thought this was such a fun episode. I loved learning about Lauren. Spy magazine. Spy was a satirical monthly magazine published from 1986 to 1988. Based in New York City, it was founded by Kurt Anderson and E. Graden Carter. Now Graydon Carter is of the moment.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh.

[Susan Morrison]

Because he was the editor of vanity fair from 92 to 2017. He was the longtime editor at Vanity Fair and he has a memoir out right now or a book called when the Going Was Good. An Editor's Adventures during the Last Golden Age of Magazines. It's a ding, ding, ding. Because he's been on this book tour and Monica Lewinsky interviewed him for something.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, she did?

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

For the book, presumably.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah. But I mean, sorry, I meant like at something.

[Dax Shepard]

Oh, okay. At an event.

[Susan Morrison]

A hun. An event. And we just had her on.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes, we did.

[Susan Morrison]

Okay. Was Bill Hader's previous job to SNL a PA On Iron Chef? He worked as an assistant editor on Iron Chef America just before he was invited to work on snl.

[Dax Shepard]

You just clacked answers and I liked it.

[Susan Morrison]

I did.

[Dax Shepard]

Why do I like your clack and not mine?

[Susan Morrison]

But do I. Did maybe it just. Do I do that a lot or.

[Dax Shepard]

Did I just hyper aware or.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah, I don't hear it from you, really. So maybe I just. Maybe I just caught it. Oh, you infiltrated.

[Dax Shepard]

You know what's so funny about Rob is like he has all these secret things. He's. I don't want to say upset about that.

[Susan Morrison]

He has noticed.

[Dax Shepard]

And it's not until I ask him. And this is kind of a nice proof personality type. Like, he doesn't tell me, like, hey, man, you're clacking like a. Yeah. Choo choo train. A choo choo train. Is that a good clack example? You sound like. You sound like Gregory Hines crossing the dining room floor to go to the salad.

[Susan Morrison]

Oh, wow.

[Dax Shepard]

You tap dancer.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was good. That was good.

[Dax Shepard]

Thank you. I would have never known. It's driving him nuts, this clack, clack, clacking as he's involved with all the technical aspects. But I got to wait till ask him. Driving me nuts.

[Monica Padman]

I just.

[Dax Shepard]

You're just aware of it?

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Out of 10, 10 is like you're pulling your hair out when you hear it. And zero is you. You love it. I guess. No, I don't. It doesn't bug me. It's just if I think it's an audio issue.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah. So you notice it during.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, you think there's like pops in the microphone or something? Well, sometimes if an edit's not smooth, it will create a pop, but sometimes.

[Monica Padman]

It'S just your teeth.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah, that makes sense. I don't notice it in the edit, actually, weirdly, I think it's usually after.

[Dax Shepard]

The mix and master that it.

[Susan Morrison]

Before I get it.

[Dax Shepard]

After you get it.

[Susan Morrison]

I find it interesting that I don't notice it because I. If it's happening after me, the cleanup, then I'm really surprised because I notice a lot. Yeah, I notice.

[Dax Shepard]

I'm your big brother, you know?

[Susan Morrison]

Is anything else of all of us. I notice, like, the little tick. So I'm really surprised I haven't caught that. When did Belushi die? He died in 82, and he was 33 years old. Just like Jesus and Chris Farley. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. It was just Easter.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah. I'm like. Which could have been anything. Yeah.

[Susan Morrison]

And the Pope. Jesus. The Pope has passed.

[Dax Shepard]

The Pope passed. Yeah.

[Susan Morrison]

I wonder how long it will take for the new Pope.

[Dax Shepard]

They're going to do that whole thing. We just.

[Susan Morrison]

Conclave. I know. It really was timely. Okay. Conan to show. Moved it to 12 of 5.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Susan Morrison]

And it was 12 of 5.

[Dax Shepard]

I heard on the radio today that Conan won best podcaster award at the Webbies.

[Susan Morrison]

Oh, exciting.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes.

[Susan Morrison]

I was.

[Dax Shepard]

I was happy for him. And mad.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah. Obviously I'm mad.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Susan Morrison]

Okay. The Five Timers SNL Club. Okay, I'm gonna read them.

[Dax Shepard]

Sound like a threat.

[Susan Morrison]

Alec Baldwin, 17 times. Steve Martin, 16. 16 times. John Goodman, 13 times. Buck Henry, 10 times. Tom Hanks, 10 times. Chevy Chase, 8 times. Christopher Walken, 7 times. Elliot Gould, 6 times. Danny DeVito 6 times. Drew Barrymore, 6 times. Tina Fey, 6 times. Scarlett Johansson, 6 times. John Mulaney, 6 times. Candice Bergen, 5 times. Times. Bill Murray, 5 times. Justin Timberlake, 5 times. Ben Affleck, 5 times. Melissa McCarthy, 5 times. Dwayne Johnson, 5 times. Wow. Jonah Hill, 5 times. Will Ferrell, 5 times. Paul Rudd, 5 times.

[Dax Shepard]

I would have thought Will would be higher.

[Susan Morrison]

Me too. Woody Harrelson, five times. Emma Stone, five times. Kristen Wig, five times. Martin Short, five times. And then there's an honorary ME member, Paul Simon, four times. It says Paul shouldn't technically be a member. He's only hosted four times, but he got his membership card for his fifth appearance on the show as a musical guest.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay, okay, lenient.

[Susan Morrison]

Another honorary member, Jack White, Zero time. Zero times. Hosting, five times.

[Dax Shepard]

Guest.

[Susan Morrison]

I mean, jackets. That's cool. Musical guests.

[Dax Shepard]

We should make Sedaris a jacket.

[Susan Morrison]

Oh, my God, we should. He's not the most frequent SNL musical guest. That's Dave Grohl.

[Dax Shepard]

Good for Dave.

[Susan Morrison]

Sixteen episodes.

[Dax Shepard]

Now that's who I want.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah, I want him, too.

[Dax Shepard]

I want him bad. I want you, Dave Grohl. Why you so bad?

[Susan Morrison]

That's it.

[Dax Shepard]

I just want to get in your pants.

[Susan Morrison]

Oh, no, I forgot. I haven't seen him in a while.

[Dax Shepard]

Because he's been hiding in the woods where he lives in a fort.

[Susan Morrison]

Oh. He's like. He's friends with that guy.

[Dax Shepard]

He's my best friend. I love Him. But I lost him some murder.

[Susan Morrison]

He what?

[Dax Shepard]

He's in prison.

[Susan Morrison]

Oh. Oh.

[Dax Shepard]

Girls were rock and roll star. And he rips. Rips the drums and he rips the guitar.

[Susan Morrison]

When you say.

[Dax Shepard]

And he was in my favorite band, Servana. When he smells like Teen Spirit in here.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah. He doesn't let me talk. I really find it frustrating. Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

He stopped so you can talk.

[Susan Morrison]

Well, now I forgot it was so long. Oh, yeah. When you say we lost him to murder, that sounds like he was murdered.

[Dax Shepard]

I know, but he went away from the tree fort to go to prison because of a murder.

[Monica Padman]

Murder.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Susan Morrison]

That's really funny. Fredo's. That's actually really funny.

[Dax Shepard]

Thank you.

[Susan Morrison]

Once in a while he was lost to murder. Cuz he murdered.

[Dax Shepard]

We lost him to murder. But he's not a murderer. He just murdered.

[Susan Morrison]

He's a murderer. Although I feel bad for him. No.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, you can feel bad for him. He's a murderer. Yeah, I thought not Fredo. No, Fredo's just a pervert. It loves everything. He's not. Never tried.

[Susan Morrison]

He's one step away from murdering. But I. I thought the other guy from your class from. He murdered together. Oh, wow.

[Dax Shepard]

And one of them, I believe, was intellectually challenged.

[Susan Morrison]

Yes. And the other one might have been too, because of toxic chemicals from the.

[Dax Shepard]

That was my take. I wrote an article about it.

[Susan Morrison]

Okay, great. You wrote an article. What'd you say?

[Dax Shepard]

I wrote an article.

[Susan Morrison]

You did?

[Dax Shepard]

One of my hobbies in my twenties is I would write fake news articles and then I would mail them home to my friends.

[Susan Morrison]

Oh, that's funny.

[Dax Shepard]

Like in my famous mugging thing, I wrote an article about that with pictures. And then when the.

[Susan Morrison]

Was it on the computer?

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, on my compact computer, desktop computer.

[Susan Morrison]

Did you use like, Photoshop to get the pictures?

[Dax Shepard]

I have. I'm sure in my milk crate of the things I've written, they're in there.

[Susan Morrison]

Oh, wow.

[Dax Shepard]

And then I wrote a long article about Aaron, and I was blaming all of it on.

[Susan Morrison]

Not Aaron Weekley.

[Dax Shepard]

Stinch comb.

[Susan Morrison]

Yeah, Aaron Stin.

[Dax Shepard]

Hated. It's so weird. I mean, you're even protective of a murderer.

[Susan Morrison]

Well, he had a bad life. I'm not. I'm not protective of him in that I do think he should be in jail, but I feel sorry for him.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't know why I'm switching. It's probably because my personal history that the kid couldn't stop trying to fight me. I mean, I have some, you know, someone trying to fight you over and over again. You made fun of their last name. I would probably give you a pass.

[Susan Morrison]

You'd like that. I know.

[Dax Shepard]

And it was right there for the taking. The name is almost already the bad name.

[Susan Morrison]

What is the bad name?

[Dax Shepard]

Shitcomb.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Susan Morrison]

It's probably added to his. Everyone calling him that probably didn't help.

[Dax Shepard]

I doubt anyone said that to his face. I'm not sure he knew.

[Susan Morrison]

It always makes its way back.

[Dax Shepard]

I don't know. I really don't know. Who would have the gall to. I don't know. I don't know. Let's move on.

[Susan Morrison]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Susan Morrison]

All right. Well, that's it.

[Dax Shepard]

That's it.

[Monica Padman]

Yeah.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay. Okay. Okay.

[Susan Morrison]

I love you.

[Dax Shepard]

I do want to say his name once as Fredo.

[Susan Morrison]

All right.

[Dax Shepard]

Aaron Sitcom. Well, I'll stop there. I want to declare.

[Susan Morrison]

He kind of got it wrong. He said it a little weird.

[Dax Shepard]

Aaron Sitcom.

[Susan Morrison]

Oh, he's saying the bad way.

[Dax Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Padman]

Okay.

[Dax Shepard]

Okay.

[Susan Morrison]

All right. Mine.

[Dax Shepard]

Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus and the Wondry App or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short [e-mail] survey.