Walter Isaacson Returns (biographer & historian)

Summary

Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard

Episode: Walter Isaacson Returns (Biographer & Historian)
Date: January 7, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Dax Shepard and Monica Padman's “Armchair Expert” welcomes back renowned biographer and historian Walter Isaacson. The main focus is Isaacson’s latest book, The Greatest Sentence Ever Written, which dissects the most powerful sentence within the Declaration of Independence—exploring its construction, historical context, and ongoing relevance. Together, they discuss the art of biography, the complexities and contradictions of historical icons, the notion of genius, and America's mission statement just in time for the country’s 250th anniversary.

Isaacson shares insights from his career shadowing figures like Elon Musk, Steve Jobs, and Jennifer Doudna, and touches on the contemporary challenges in finding common ground amidst societal polarization.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing Walter Isaacson and His New Book

• Walter Isaacson is a noted biographer who delves deeply into the lives of iconic figures such as Einstein, Benjamin Franklin, Steve Jobs, and Elon Musk.
• His new book, The Greatest Sentence Ever Written, is a meticulous examination of a line from the Declaration of Independence, breaking it down word by word to uncover its compromises, intentions, and enduring power.
• Dax praises Isaacson as, “The most fascinating person… he deserves his own biography.” [00:56]

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2. The Craft of Biography & Observing Genius

• Isaacson’s unique approach is to embed himself in the lives of his subjects, shadowing them to glean authentic narratives and insights.
• Discusses the Heisenberg effect—the idea that observing a subject might change their behavior. Isaacson reflects that Elon Musk seemed immune:

  “Me being there did not seem to change him at all... He doesn’t have emotional EQ, incoming signals very well.” [10:08]

• The show explores the interplay of personal demons and public greatness, the cost of genius, and the importance of context—especially childhood and paternal influence—in shaping remarkable people.

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3. Genius, Demons, and Personal Cost

• The hosts and Isaacson riff on how many geniuses have complicated or traumatic upbringings, often leading to both drive and dysfunction.

• Isaacson relays stories about Elon Musk’s “demon-driven” personality, his fraught relationship with his father, and how trauma can both hinder and fuel greatness:

  "Do you harness your demons or do your demons harness you? And Elon has spent a lifetime struggling harnessing his demons." [25:04]

• Importance of explaining, not excusing, flaws in historical figures:

  “People conflate an excuse and an explanation...” [24:56]

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4. Polarization, Tolerance, & Complexity of Greatness

• The dangers of binary thinking (“hero or villain”) is addressed. Isaacson argues society must tolerate a certain level of eccentricity in transformative figures, as perfection is unrealistic.
• He references Steve Jobs’ “Here’s to the crazy ones...” quote [31:15], and Shakespeare’s balanced depictions of flawed heroes and villains:

  “Look at Shakespeare’s great heroes... even the villains in Shakespeare... they all have backstories, and nobody says, 'Hey, Shakespeare, you shouldn’t try to explain away their flaws.' We need to get back to understanding the complexity of human nature.” [31:18]

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5. Breaking Down ‘The Greatest Sentence Ever Written’

• Isaacson provides a historical analysis of “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal…”—the heart of the Declaration of Independence.
• The word "we" is dissected as a radical assertion of collective agency over monarchy or divine right:

  “It’s the social contract... The notion of individual rights is so important.” [47:41]

• Compromises on slavery and religion are explored:
  • Jefferson called slavery a “moral depravity” and “hideous blot,” yet continued to own people and father children with Sally Hemings. [55:34]
  • Franklin changed “sacred” to “self-evident,” balancing rationalism and religion.
  • The use of “endowed by their Creator” was itself a carefully constructed compromise; many founders were deists (believing in a distant, non-intervening creator). [59:27–60:27]

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6. The American Commons & The American Dream

• The idea of "common ground" (from feudal village “commons”) is connected to public goods—education, libraries, social trust—anchoring the possibility of mobility and the American Dream.
• Franklin’s contributions (public libraries, fire departments, hospitals) are seen as foundational to this commons.
• Dax: “If we are not a place that you can transcend your social class, then we are in a nobility… That is the quintessential ingredient.” [75:10]
• Isaacson warns against today's “skyboxification”—increasing velvet rope divisions and exclusivity, eroding shared experience and buy-in:

  “If you fence off too many things, you get a resentful society—one in which people cannot rise to their own talents.” [79:22]

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7. Meritocracy & Elitism

• The notion of the meritocratic elite (favored by Jefferson) vs. Franklin’s vision of opportunity for all.
• Isaacson critiques modern higher education’s role in perpetuating hereditary elites:

  “At a certain point, maybe 50 years ago, we created a meritocracy of credentialed people... and that wasn’t the best thing to happen.” [81:27]

• Monica and Dax note the left’s reluctance to confront the new class divide. Isaacson argues that regaining common ground is key to societal resilience.

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8. Looking Forward—Finding Common Ground for America’s 250th

• As the U.S. approaches its 250th anniversary, Isaacson hopes the Declaration’s principles can unify, not divide:

  “Wouldn't it be nice if we could say, well, here's what we all agree on. Here's what the common ground is…” [43:31]

• The episode ends with an encouragement to foster unity, echoing Franklin:

  “We must indeed all hang together, or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately.” [83:54]

• Isaacson: “Every day wake up and say, at least for our 250th birthday, I’m going to try to think, what can I do that helps bring us together and unite us versus being part of the things that polarize us.” [88:36]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Heisenberg effect and Musk: "By watching somebody, are you changing their behavior? And to some extent, yes. But surprisingly for me, with Elon Musk in particular, me being there did not seem to change him at all." (Walter Isaacson, 08:07)
• On trauma and innovation: “All of the people I've written about… they aren't perfect in their personal lives… you look at Leonardo, who's born out of wedlock... you feel like an outsider and you go down the line.” (Walter Isaacson, 23:23)
• On empathy and leadership: “If you worry about what people think about you, you'll never succeed… that's the problem with empathy. Sometimes empathy is really vanity…” (Elon Musk, paraphrased by Isaacson, 10:08-10:58)
• On binary thinking: "We became a society in which... you had to declare somebody a hero or a villain. And you couldn't say… it's more complicated than that." (Walter Isaacson, 29:44)
• On the meaning of 'We': “The same word begins the greatest sentence ever written and it begins our Constitution, we the people. So you gotta understand that this isn’t the divine right of kings or the power of conquerors.” (Walter Isaacson, 52:13)
• On opportunity and the commons: “No matter how much you believe in private property or anything, there's a moral purpose of saying there'll be certain things that every kid has the opportunity to have… that’s the core principle.” (Walter Isaacson, 71:53)
• On the myth of the perfect genius: "Do you want a society without Elon Musk or George Packer… could you have had a kinder and gentler subject still being the one getting the Dayton Accord, shooting the rocket to Mars, whatever it may be?” (Walter Isaacson, 28:45)
• On tolerance and common good: “Franklin is the great guidepost… He is a believer in capitalism, a believer in enterprise, but also in making sure everybody has an opportunity.” (Walter Isaacson, 83:54)

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Important Timestamps

• Biography & Heisenberg effect: [07:48–11:27]
• Elon Musk’s demons & childhood trauma: [23:25–26:35]
• Binary thinking, cancel culture, and Shakespeare: [28:45–32:00]
• The Declaration of Independence sentence—origins and compromises: [43:11–57:32]
• Deism and religion in America’s founding: [59:20–63:46]
• The American commons & the American Dream: [66:08–76:20]
• Rise of elitism & loss of true meritocracy: [79:22–83:43]
• Finding unity for America’s 250th: [83:54–88:36]

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Tone and Style

The conversation balances warmth, intellectual curiosity, humor, and a persistent drive to understand the messiness and contradictions of people—be they tech visionaries or Founding Fathers. Monica and Dax provide approachable, self-deprecating commentary (“Fuck you, I guess, is what I want to say.” - Dax to Walter about his loving parents, 35:23), while Isaacson adds gravitas, humility, and a generous embrace of historical complexity.

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Conclusion

This episode is a rich meditation on genius, failure, national purpose, and the American soul—offering both historical insight and timely guidance as the U.S. faces ongoing division. Isaacson urges listeners to embrace nuance, seek common ground, and “be like Franklin”—curious, connected, and committed to opportunity for all.

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Recommended for:
History buffs, admirers of biography, citizens interested in American identity, and anyone searching for hopeful, nuanced conversation about how we move forward—together.

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Transcript

[Dan Shepard]

Wondry plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now. Join Wondri plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts, or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. Experts on Expert. I'm Dan Shepard and I'm joined by Monica Isaacson.

[Monica Isaacson]

Whoa.

[Dan Shepard]

Recently married to our guest, Walter Isaacson is back. We had him on last time to talk about the Elon book, I believe. Is that what he was here for?

[Monica Isaacson]

No doubt. Jennifer Dowd.

[Dan Shepard]

Oh, right, Jennifer Dowd. And then I read the Elon one afterwards. All to say he's back with a new book called the Greatest Sentence Ever Written. I gotta add, in case you didn't listen to the first Walter, which you should. Yeah, Walter in his own right is the most fascinating person. And I said this in the first interview, he deserves his own biography because he was the CEO or president of cnn. Yeah, he had a whole crazy, epic career before he was a biographer.

[Monica Isaacson]

I know. So cool.

[Dan Shepard]

His new book is called the Greatest Sentence Ever Written, and it's about the most powerful sentence in the Declaration of Independence. And he just breaks it down word by word and how meticulous it was. It's extremely fascinating.

[Monica Isaacson]

Fascinating.

[Dan Shepard]

All the compromises that are just within the sentence. Yeah, fascinating. Please enjoy. Walter Isaacson. We are supported by Apple Watch. All right, so here's a truth that made me feel way better about myself. Most people quit their New Year's fitness resolutions by the second Friday of January. They even, even call it Quitters Day. January 9th. Which is wild. We all start the year with these big goals, and then life happens, motivation fades, and we just quit. But here's the thing. This year, we're quitting quitting. An Apple Watch is basically designed to not let you bail. It tracks your activities, sends you those little nudges when you haven't stood in a while, celebrates when you close your activity rings and keeps you accountable with streaks and reminders. It's like having a workout partner on your wrist that won't let you off the hook. So if you've been thinking about getting serious about your fit fitness goals, or honestly just making it past January 9 this time, Apple Watch is the move. Let's do this. This is the year we all quit. Quitting iPhone 11 or later required. We are supported by quints. Winter in LA is weird. It'll be 75 degrees one day. Then suddenly you need an actual coat. I've been rotating through the same three jackets for years, and honestly, they're looking Rough. So I finally upgraded my winter wardrobe with quints. And the difference is wild. Their Mongolian cashmere sweaters are ridic soft. Like, I didn't know cashmere could feel this good without costing a mortgage payment. And their wool coats and Italian leather outerwear, they're the kind of pieces that actually last.

[Monica Isaacson]

They also have amazing homeware. Do not sleep on the homeware. And if someone's moving and you want to get them, like a little housewarming gift, it's the perfect place. I got a friend some curtains.

[Dan Shepard]

Oh, you did? Yeah, curtains. QCs.

[Monica Isaacson]

Whence curtains do it.

[Dan Shepard]

What I love about quints is they cut out the middleman. Bye. Bye. They work directly with factories and have ethical production standards. So you're getting luxury quality without the luxury markup. We're talking premium materials, thoughtful design stuff that'll last you multiple winners, not just one. Refresh your winter wardrobe with quince. Go to quince.comdax for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Quite n c e dot com DAX free shipping and 365 day returns. Quint.com DAX. Don't say anything. That's one of my questions.

[Walter Isaacson]

Yeah, can I use this?

[Dan Shepard]

We can't nail it with a couch. This is the third iteration. We put pillows out and what we have found is there's no unifying comfort level architecture for a couch.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah.

[Dan Shepard]

There's nothing universal that everyone agrees on. You know, it's always going to be polarizing a couch.

[Walter Isaacson]

I know. And I used to hate throw pillows. My wife has always got. I think, why do people have these? And now suddenly I'm like, hey, there's.

[Dan Shepard]

A pillow that's cool. I have the same anger about the pillow. Mostly on the bed. Decorative.

[Walter Isaacson]

Hate decorative.

[Dan Shepard]

The fact that you're just going to pitch it on the floor every night and we're going to repeat this. Busy work.

[Walter Isaacson]

Right? Right.

[Monica Isaacson]

Oh, you guys would hate it.

[Walter Isaacson]

You and I have the. I'll bring my wife next time. You can convey it.

[Dan Shepard]

Please.

[Walter Isaacson]

Even at our house, we have like four throat pillows on the bed. I said nobody's gonna come see the bedroom. Why are we.

[Dan Shepard]

Yes.

[Walter Isaacson]

It's not for show.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah, but it's pretty.

[Dan Shepard]

We need a good social scientist to tackle this. What is going on? What Evolutionary.

[Walter Isaacson]

Duckner probably could do it for you. Dubner knows everything.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah, she does.

[Walter Isaacson]

He's been on your show quite a bit, right?

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah. Yeah, we love him. I would throw Duckworth in the mix too. I'd want her eyes on this too. Angela Duckworth.

[Monica Isaacson]

It's an aesthetic. It's making your nest look nice.

[Dan Shepard]

And that's where I think the work would lie is the value of aesthetic. What aesthetic do you prioritize?

[Monica Isaacson]

It is interesting.

[Dan Shepard]

Fascinating that an aesthetic would be an essential pursuit.

[Walter Isaacson]

Well, you see, an aesthetic with no usefulness is bad. Now there's a Venn diagram in which something is aesthetic and useful.

[Monica Isaacson]

Oh, you pillows are not there living with me. I just bought this little tray yesterday. It's for nothing. I don't know what I'm gonna use, but it's so cute. So now it's just sitting on my counter and I have to find a use for it.

[Walter Isaacson]

It's like a little candle on the table. You're not really gonna like that.

[Dan Shepard]

Well, yeah, like I think we would agree, decorative columns on a structure is offensive if they don't really bear any weight or they don't serve any purpose. Maybe you're pro column.

[Walter Isaacson]

Well, my dad was an engineer and we grew up in New Orleans. Column heavy. But they are weight bearing columns, so they're necessary. Right.

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah.

[Walter Isaacson]

As we learned in Hurricane Katrin, where occasionally a column would go off. Yes.

[Monica Isaacson]

It also might be a deep. Like, this is a nice space. It's inviting. So you're included into gatherings or you become an integral part of the community.

[Dan Shepard]

If you present a beautiful environment. People are drawn to that. It would facilitate gathering and fellowship and counseling.

[Walter Isaacson]

What are the rooms called in the Arab world that are just the whole couch on the outside and lots of beautiful cushions?

[Monica Isaacson]

Oh, I.

[Walter Isaacson]

It's a room where people gather and.

[Dan Shepard]

It'S designed to facilitate and beautiful throw pillows. Yeah. Okay. So we saw each other. I don't know. Did you sign an NDA about that birthday party? Are we allowed to say we were at it? It's just reputational cost to ourselves.

[Walter Isaacson]

I think it's reputational cost. I would. I don't know, for my birthday party, I'd say don't tell people you were there.

[Dan Shepard]

Well, we've been very public about our ongoing relationship with Bill Gates, so I have nothing to hide. But I did see you there, which was a delight because when we interviewed you, I guess five years ago, or close to five years ago, it was over zoom, which is never really quite the thing.

[Walter Isaacson]

It's amazing that you now get this in person because it is so much of a different dynamic.

[Dan Shepard]

Yes. Like you can just imagine having shadowed Elon on a screen that someone held. It wouldn't really work. Right.

[Walter Isaacson]

And I think that in the Days of AI, we're going to learn that actually physically being there counts. And when I was doing Steve Jobs, when I was doing Elon Musk doing Jennifer Doudna and I did the show with you on it, my rule was I don't do it based on interviews. I do it based on you letting me embed myself in your life for two years and just watch you and shadow you and so then you can make it a narrative.

[Dan Shepard]

Okay, you mentioned this. I watched you doing a Michael Lewis sit down, which was really fascinating. We adore him as well. Yeah, you mentioned, I guess it's the Heisenberg effect. Is that what it's called?

[Walter Isaacson]

Yeah. Which is when you observe something Heisenberg said, if you observe the particle, that's a quantum mechanical thing, whether it's a.

[Dan Shepard]

Particle or a wavelength.

[Walter Isaacson]

Exactly. So the question that Michael Lewis and I have, cause we both have the same method, which is I'm just gonna ride alongside you and watch. Is by watching somebody, are you changing their behavior? And to some extent, yes. But surprisingly for me, with Elon Musk in particular, me being there did not seem to change him at all. Cuz I would talk to all of his team and they'd say, you gotta come to this meeting. Cause he's gonna really come down hard on us. And we wanna make sure that, you know, you're there taking notes. And I'd come and they'd say, well, that didn't help any, you being there. Yeah, yeah.

[Dan Shepard]

Well, you even saw like interpersonal relationship feuds and stuff like that that you were privy to.

[Walter Isaacson]

Especially with Grimes, which is a very interesting relationship. The mother of some of his children and Siobhan Zillis. These are all really smart, talented people. You know, I didn't want to wallow in the personal life, but the personal life is connected to the professional passion and just to the inner person.

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah, it's huge. Well, I think it approaches the most fascinating we all kind of have with these unique geniuses is like, how are they shifting gears into interpersonal, familial. Because they are in an environment most of their day where their opinion's the most important and they declare things, they don't really debate things. So all of us are quite interested as like, how does that work in.

[Walter Isaacson]

Quote, real life, there's no one formula, but there is a through line. Of all the people I've written about, Einstein, Benjamin Franklin, Steve Jobs, well, Steve is a little bit different, but Elon Musk is. They aren't perfect in their personal lives. And I shouldn't put Steve Jobs in that category. He had a great personal life. But you know, Ben Franklin sort of sets up household in London with another woman. He leaves Deborah back home. Einstein was not ever going to win of the year on board. And Elon. Enough said.

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah, yeah. Could you rank your subjects in most susceptible to Heisenberg effect and least susceptible? It seems like Elon's at the top as far as he was least least.

[Walter Isaacson]

Susceptible because he doesn't have emotional EQ incoming signals very well. Right. In other words, I'm sitting here looking at you all and you know, we kind of know what each other thinks. Elon, his brother Kimball said that he was the one who got the empathy gene. Kimball. And so sometimes Elon just doesn't have those receptors. Secondly, and he said this to me very strongly, he said if you worry about what people think about you, you'll never succeed. He said that's the problem with empathy. Sometimes empathy is really vanity because you care what other people think and you want them to like you. And he said of me, which wasn't particularly nice. He said that's why you screwed up running cnn. You cared too much that the people there liked you and you should have gotten rid of half of them. Empathy is not your friend when you're running something.

[Monica Isaacson]

Oof.

[Dan Shepard]

Yes. So A, how did you take that criticism and B, how true?

[Walter Isaacson]

Well, it had the odious smell of truth to it because I look into myself. I'm never going to get a rocket into orbit or people to Mars or change a whole electric vehicle or AI. I think it's partly because you have to just be hell bent, passionate and intense. You have to care what people think of you. You have to build teams, but you have to not obsess over wanting everybody to like you.

[Dan Shepard]

I want to share this with you because I think you would get a kick out of it. Maybe he already told you personally, but. So yeah, we're on this trip with.

[Walter Isaacson]

Bill to India for his foundation work.

[Dan Shepard]

Yes. And so we're traveling around with him on his plane all week and those are really special moments because there's really no other obligation, which he has many. You can really just shoot the shit. And of course I had just read your Elon book and I wanted so bad to know if he had read it and what he thought because obviously for people who don't know, Elon really at least at one point hated Bill and they had a very ill fated tour of SpaceX where he started confronting him about shorting his stock and then went on A tweeting campaign.

[Walter Isaacson]

All true.

[Dan Shepard]

We're sitting there and I said, you love Walter Isaacson, right? And he's like, oh, yeah, yeah. I really like Walter, and we're friends. I said, so did you read Elon book? And he goes, oh, yeah, yeah, it was great. I really liked it. And I was like, okay, great.

[Walter Isaacson]

Wow.

[Dan Shepard]

And a little bit where their overlap is, the criticism from Elon just doesn't really register. It doesn't seem he has a similar gift in that he's not terribly affected by these opinions.

[Walter Isaacson]

Well, I think Bill has a lot of incoming criticism, and he has to have a bit of a thick skin. Although I think Bill Gates actually feels it. He has a lot more empathy than people would think.

[Dan Shepard]

I think he does.

[Walter Isaacson]

But I also think he correctly says of Elon Musk, oh, he just runs down everybody. He says nasty things about everybody. You just gotta live with it. And that is true.

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Isaacson]

He's not taking it personally.

[Dan Shepard]

And he said, oh. And then my favorite part of the book is he goes on to talk about the chapter where he had invited the CEO and the head engineer of the solar panel company he had purchased to come down and install the solar panels on the roof of his house in Cape Canaveral, wherever the hell he launches. And Bill was trying to explain the part where he starts yelling at them on the roof at midnight. Why did you make that part? What is that designed for? That doesn't even go with that. Have you guys ever installed it? Bill's enjoyment of incompetence being exposed was incredibly telling.

[Walter Isaacson]

Well, I'm so interested to hear this because Bill Gates never told me that, and it is totally true. And that's why you have to embed yourself. I remember being on that roof at midnight in Boca Chica, Texas. He goes into what's called demon mode, Elon does, and he's like, why are there these parts? He said, the best part is no part you gotta get. And they said, well, we can't, because. And he turned out to be right. And that's the sort of secret sauce of Elon Musk, is he understands the details of engineering. And I think Bill Gates would appreciate that.

[Dan Shepard]

Yes. And you have to build in a little bit of compassion and understanding, despite the fact that they're so enriched and successful, which is. I think it's easy to overlook the frustration that exists when you truly are often the smartest person in the room. What I got a glimpse in of, like, oh, yeah, Bill has lived on a planet where he's been trying his Hardest to get everyone to catch up to his speed. And that is frustrating. So for him to have observed another guy going through it and then letting it rip in that fashion and how much enjoyment and humor he got out of it, I was like, oh, yeah, this is very illuminating.

[Walter Isaacson]

You know, it's particularly interesting. Cause those are the two smartest people I've ever dealt with. You know, Elon Musk, in some ways. There are others in different types of intelligence. But Elon's intelligence is understanding material science and engineering. And engineering's a lot different than pure science or running a company. And Bill understands physics, understands science so well, but he's never been a pure physical engineer. I'm not talking about software engineer. And they had many big disputes, Elon Musk and Bill Gates. One of them, in which Elon turned out to be more right than Bill, was that you could have EVs doing things like semi trucks that you could make batteries that could do it. And I think it's almost because Musk can visualize lithium ion batteries and how much power they could have and how you would make the engineering. And it's an important trait because our country is now missing this ability to totally manufacture things and learn from the manufacturing process. For example, Steve Jobs, he had so much beauty embedded in everything he did. His design sensibility was great. His ability to understand human emotions, interactions, much better than Musk. I mean, Musk builds a cybertruck, which still doesn't speak to most people emotion.

[Monica Isaacson]

Back to aesthetics.

[Walter Isaacson]

Yeah, a steam job. I remember walking around the design studio as he's trying to figure out what he called the chamfers, the curves on the iPhone and stuff making it beautiful. But what Steve then did was it was then sent to China to be manufactured. Whereas Musk says, no, I've got to make my own manufacturing lines. I got to put my desk, my engineers and my designers right on the manufacturing lines so that they can have the instant feedback of the engineering.

[Monica Isaacson]

How do you write about these people who are the most brilliant people in the world? Because then you yourself have to understand what they're talking about.

[Walter Isaacson]

Well, that's the joy of doing the book. I mean, we talked about it. When I talk to you about Jennifer Doudna and the code breaker and crispr, well, learning a little bit of biology and learning the chemistry of it. You can learn anything. I mean, this is almost the theme of your show.

[Dan Shepard]

I was gonna say, I think we do a similar thing, which is like, oh, we have a physicist in two hours. I gotta brush up on that, I gotta be able to be an intermediary between the lay person and the expert.

[Walter Isaacson]

And one of the things your show does is you can be an expert on physics at this point, music at that point, psychology the next. People who dive into many different subjects tend to see the patterns of nature. And that's where creativity comes from.

[Dan Shepard]

Yes. So I'm quite envious again. We just had a very tiny dose of it. We had a week of it. And you've had at times, years of it with people. And I remember we said out loud to each other all the time, like, this is an insane privilege. We're getting to go meet with all of the heads of tech in India and go to a secret room where it's Chatham House rules. And we're getting to hear, I don't know, six of the 20 smartest people on the planet about this topic, discuss how they're going to tackle it. And it's such a unique and special thing to be a fly on the wall of. Of all these subjects, which one did you find yourself just kind of endlessly grateful?

[Walter Isaacson]

I think it was the one I talked to you about, which is biochemistry and understanding how our cells work. And we talk about coding and AI and stuff. Well, in the next 20 years, cells are gonna be. Molecules are gonna be things we have to code and engineer. So it was fun to learn that. I struggled a bit with Einstein, even though my father's an engineer, my grandfather, my uncle. So I grew up with some of this. I was okay with the physics. It was the tensor calculus I was trying to learn for general relativity. And that may have been the wall I kinda hit.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah, it's so hard, it's humbling when.

[Dan Shepard]

You hit that wall, Right. Cause you can be like cruising along.

[Walter Isaacson]

Because you keep saying to yourself, as I said to you, you. And then, wait a minute. The tensor calcus of general. And I had Brian Greene and others, and I didn't understand it. He'd explain it to me, and then 20 minutes later I'd say, wait, I can't figure it out again. Bill Gates is that way. And you saw it on your trip to India. If there's anybody who dives in and could be curious about everything from malaria and public health to nuclear power and new ways of doing it. Even in the 1970s or so, he'd take these think weeks and he'd bring books with him and he would just learn everything you could about a subject. Leonardo da Vinci was that way. It's like, I need to learn everything about a Subject. And he would dive into Euclid because the printing press had just come to pass in 1500 in Florence. And he'd say, I've got to get the Euclid book that's in the bookshop down by the bridge. So he could learn that. And then he'd learn botany, and then he'd learn optics. And there are certain people in this world who try to learn as much as possible about everything knowable, from Aristotle to Leonardo da Vinci to Bill Gates to Ben Franklin. And those are people who are interesting.

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah, you get this sense that, oh, boy, they kind of have a comprehensive view of all the things, all the dynamics that are at play, which is so many things to juggle. We asked him, hey, of these promising longevity texts that are on the horizon, which do you think is the most promising? And he's like, well, we have a company that we work with that we thinking, doing a lot of good work. But you got to remember, The Earth is 5.2 billion years old. In the first cells, we have two independent cells. He took us through the evolution of every single cell till we got to mammal, also incorporating all of the geology that was happening and all the chemistry that was happening in the atmosphere and how everything was changing. And I was like, like, I mean, my God, this guy had to tell us the history of the planet to bring us up to speed, to say where we're going next. And it took an hour.

[Walter Isaacson]

It's interesting as you look at AI which will be able to absorb billions of bits of information, and the question is seeing the patterns. And that's what a great human can do, is learn so many different things and then abstract patterns. And I've just been reading books about AI which is, how do you get to that level where you get the abstraction of patterns that the AI can juggle?

[Dan Shepard]

You can juggle so much data.

[Walter Isaacson]

Sort of an intuition, too.

[Dan Shepard]

Yes.

[Walter Isaacson]

Einstein once said that every great advance is a leap of intuition, but every leap of intuition comes from years of having absorbed data.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah, that's so true.

[Dan Shepard]

Okay, so all this to say, why have you not ever done Bill, first.

[Walter Isaacson]

Of all, I tend to think childhood is the sweet spot to win. I mean, whether it's Elon's difficult childhood in South Africa.

[Dan Shepard]

Oh, the wilderness camps he was sent to define them.

[Walter Isaacson]

Yeah. And that we biographers believe that dad and childhood are two keys to understanding. Well, Source Code, which is Bill Gates's first of, I think, a trilogy of memoirs. That is as good as it gets when it comes to memoirs. There'll Be a certain point I'll write something about Bill Gates, but I can't top that book.

[Dan Shepard]

Okay, that makes sense. Now you just circled the point I wanted to explore, which is certainly with Elon, the whole thing is just driven by this relationship with his father. That's the fuel in the tank. As was Steve Jobs in some interesting way in that. Right. He was adopted and that whole story. So of your subjects, all are male except for Doudna. Was her driving force a mother conflict?

[Walter Isaacson]

No, it was actually a father too. I don't want to say that's a pattern of everybody, but as Barack Obama, who's been on your show, his first line is, I think every successful person is either trying to live up to the expectations of his father or live down the sins of the father. And the same is true of me is what he said. So Jennifer had a very, very supportive father who just believed she could do science and took her on explorations. I think that was a key to the childhood there. She felt like an outsider. I think I'm handicapped. Like Michael Lewis, my friend. Grew up with him in New Orleans. We had magical childhoods. We'd grown up in New Orleans with wonderful parents and friends. I think sometimes having a rough childhood and feeling like a misfit, feeling like an outsider instills in you a bit of that drive of how do I fit in? And you look at Leonardo, who's born out of wedlock and is not legitimated by his father. And he's gay and he's left handed and he's light him up. And he goes in this small village of Vinci and finally goes to Florence where the Medici embrace him. But you could do it, Einstein being Jewish in Germany. Yeah. You feel like an outsider and you go down the line or just even.

[Dan Shepard]

Alienated by their genius as well.

[Walter Isaacson]

They feel a misfit in who they are. And Elon Musk being bullied as a kid, having a father who was psychologically abusive to him, who took the sides of the bullies who beat up Elon. Elon is slightly on the I'm not very signals scale. So he's sitting there in the corner of the bookstore, growing up all alone, reading Asimov, reading Heinlein. I saw one of the books, Stranger in a Strange Land. It's on your shelf there. Elon would read these things and he'd feel like a stranger in a strange land.

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah. Just to remind folks of one of the stories in that book about Elon. Right. Is he at this wilderness camp, got beat up so severely by Another boy that he was in the hospital for four days. And when he came home and we was presented to his father, his father proceeded to shame him for losing the fight for hours.

[Walter Isaacson]

I mean, just made him stand in front and say, you're a loser. You'll never amount to anything. While Kimball, the younger brother, had to watch. And Kimball says it's still the most searing experience of his life.

[Dan Shepard]

And it's not to excuse things, but minimally, when you're evaluating these crazy things you observe, it is useful to remind yourself of what?

[Monica Isaacson]

That he's a person. People are people.

[Dan Shepard]

He was.

[Walter Isaacson]

Humans are humans. Exactly right.

[Dan Shepard]

He was forged.

[Walter Isaacson]

Forged by fire. I think that's a title of my first chapter. But I get some pushback and so does Michael Lewis sometimes of, oh, you're trying to explain away Elon being demon driven and stuff. I say I'm trying to explain it.

[Monica Isaacson]

Exactly.

[Dan Shepard]

People conflate an excuse and explanation.

[Walter Isaacson]

Yeah, I said, you're trying to excuse him. And I say, I'm trying to explain them. You can be the judge. But I'm gonna tell you what it was like, how it was growing up.

[Dan Shepard]

Up.

[Walter Isaacson]

And I think successful people have some demons in them. There's no question for anybody like that. And we probably all do. Even those of us with good childhoods have a few demons. Do you harness your demons or do your demons harness you? And Elon has spent a lifetime struggling harnessing his demons.

[Monica Isaacson]

It's not even helpful to have a story that doesn't show all the pieces because it's a cautionary tale too. You need to hear about the father and the bullying and stuff, so that whoever reads it moving forward knows that results in this.

[Walter Isaacson]

Maye Musk is just this wonderful person, the mother of Elon, you probably watched her, she's a fashion model in her 70s. But she said to me at the very beginning, and we were talking about her ex husband, Elon's father, saying the challenge for Elon is the danger that Elon becomes his father. And you see that struggle and you see it in Luke Skywalker learning that the dark side of the Force. Well, hey, that's my father. And that's a pretty ancient struggle. You're right. You want to explain all the sides so people understand where the demons. But you don't have a lot of drives that are insane drives unless you have a few demons. I know, and maybe that's why I'm a better observer of people than somebody who's gonna shoot rockets to Mars. Cause, you know, I got some drives. But they're not ins, but they're not going to change the world the way Steve Jobs did, the way Elon Musk did, the way Einstein did.

[Dan Shepard]

I guess Bill's comforting in that way that his parents were, by all accounts, spectacular.

[Walter Isaacson]

His father and mother were. That's what source code this book he did about his childhood and the Cheerio camp that they used to go to and the games that they played. Now, he was very competitive and ambitious, but his father, who just died maybe what, five or six years ago, has got to have been one of the wisest, sweetest people.

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah. Gentle giant. An enormous man with a big heart.

[Walter Isaacson]

And he did. One of the great things for Bill Gates was he helped negotiate that original IBM contract that says, and you get to keep the source code.

[Dan Shepard]

Yes, he is incredible. And then the mother's incredibly admirable proportionality of pushing him to be social and then surrendering to who he was.

[Walter Isaacson]

Big in the United Way. Understanding that it's not just about taking things, it's about giving back. I did do years ago, a cover story in Time magazine on Bill. And it begins with the mother and the mother taking Bill to a psychologist because Bill is always resisting or always refusing to do things. And the psychologist saying to the mother, I think Mary, her name was, give it up. Just let it be who he is. Cause if you struggle with him, he's gonna win. And that's why I think Bill turned out a little bit differently. He has incredible drives. Early years of Microsoft. I mean, he is a psychopathic.

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah, yeah.

[Walter Isaacson]

Admittedly, he says so, but he has been somebody who has been. Then it's about something larger, like taking you to India and explaining why. And all the people I've written about at a certain point realize it's not just about me and my success. It's about connecting my success to something larger than myself.

[Monica Isaacson]

Interesting.

[Dan Shepard]

Okay, so now, having studied all these people, here's I guess, my fear. And my conclusion is they don't come in the shape we'd like. And I think our current society has lost a little bit of tolerance for what comes with these once in a generation types. We want them to also be perfect. And I think that's unrealistic. What do you think about the reality of what makes these people and what kind of tolerance we have to have societally?

[Walter Isaacson]

You have to have tolerances for geniuses. And that's when I was doing the Elon Musk being interviewed about him. You know, people who just really hated him. I'd say, wait a minute. Do you Want a society without Elon Musk or George Packer wrote a great book on Richard Holbrooke, who's not quite up there with Elon Musk, but this diplomat who was just such a pain in the ass. And yet, as Packer ends the book as the way I end the Elon book, could you have had a kinder and gentler subject still being the one getting the Dayton Accord, shooting the rocket to Mars, whatever it may be? So I think we have to tolerate and, you know, people push back, may, but tolerate sometimes the craziness of genius. That said, I think there was a period up until about four or five years ago where we had become quite intolerant of, say, Picasso. And I think that as we got into an age where in 140 characters, you had to declare somebody a hero or a villain.

[Dan Shepard]

Sure.

[Walter Isaacson]

And you couldn't say, wait a minute, with Picasso, it's more complicated than that. With TSL is more complicated than that.

[Dan Shepard]

Michael Jackson.

[Walter Isaacson]

Exactly. And so we became a society in which, either because of the algorithms of social media or the talk radio or cable news, you had to immediately declare somebody was either totally evil or totally great.

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah. Everything binary quickly.

[Walter Isaacson]

And you couldn't sort of explain, well, it's a little bit more complicated. As you said, these are humans.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yes, exactly.

[Walter Isaacson]

Do you want to have a planet it in which the people who are pushing us forward also have great bedside manners? Yeah. Steve Jobs wrote when he came back to Apple, having been sent into the wilderness in the 90s, he wrote this ad to declare what Apple was all about. And I remember late in his life, he recited to me and started crying. And here's to the crazy ones, the misfits, the rebels, the round pegs in the square hole, the ones who think different, and it goes on. And then it ends with, because the people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world are the ones who do. So are you gonna be tolerant of the misfits, the rebels, the crazy ones? Well, yes, but you also have to remember that you can decry the bad parts of them. I mean, Shakespeare teaches that in our current age, everything's so binary. We don't understand that. Look at Shakespeare's great heroes. Even Henry V by Agincourt speech, whatever. He kills all the prisoners, the French prisoners. He does horrible things. Likewise, even the villains in Shakespeare, Othello, Iago, they all have backstories, and nobody says, hey, Shakespeare, you shouldn't try to explain away their flaws. I think we need to get back to understanding the complexity of human nature.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah, I agree.

[Dan Shepard]

Or just pick that I don't want anything new or I don't want anything incredibly hard done.

[Walter Isaacson]

I will say I think that sort of cancel culture and everything else pendulum has swung away from that recently and maybe too far. You can look at whether it be Donald Trump or many other people in public eye. I don't mean to get political here they are breaking all sorts of guardrails and maybe we should be now saying, wait a minute, wait a minute, don't go there.

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah.

[Walter Isaacson]

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

[Dan Shepard]

We are supported by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. That's smart. Not checking which platform you watch that new show on. So frustrating. 15 minutes later you've logged into seven apps, reset two passwords and still haven't found it. Yeah, checking first is smart. So check Allstate first for a quote. That could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary, subject to terms, conditions and availability. Allstate North American Insurance Company Affiliates, Northbrook, IL we are supported by Inuit TurboTax. You know that feeling when you drop your taxes off with somebody and then nothing? You're just sitting there wondering if they've even started, if there's a problem. If you're getting everything you're owed, it's like sending your car to the shop and never getting an update. That's what I appreciate about TurboTax full service. They've completely flipped that experience. You get matched with a dedicated tax expert who actually does your taxes for you. You. And here's the part that changes everything. You get real time updates on your expert's progress right in the app. You can literally see when they're working on your return. No more guessing, no more waiting by the phone. And if you have questions, you get unlimited help from your expert at no extra cost. Even nights and weekends during tax season, they're focused on getting you the best possible outcome and every dollar you deserve. Visit turbotax.com to get matched with a Turbo Tax Full Service expert today. That's TurboTax.com only available with TurboTax full service experts, real time updates and iOS mobile app. We are supported by Helix. Sleep is one of those things where you don't realize how much it affects everything else until you actually fix it. I'm talking about waking up groggy, dealing with back pain, or just never feeling fully rested. A lot of that comes down to your mattress and most of us are sleeping on something that Wasn't designed for our specific body or sleep style. That's what I appreciate about Helix. They don't do the one size fits all thing. They actually customize the mattress based on how you sleep, whether you're a side sleeper, back sleeper, you sleep hot, you have back pain, whatever. It's personalized to you, which makes a huge difference in how you actually feel when you wake up. I thought this part was pretty cool. Helix has a sleep quiz that'll match you with your perfect mattress in just a minute. Check it out. It's so easy. You just fill out some basic info, your sleep habits and preferences, and they'll provide a recommendation that addresses your specific needs. Go to helixsleep.com sleep sl armchair for 27% off site wide. Exclusive for armchairies. That's helixsleep.com armchair for 27% off site Wide. Make sure you enter our show name after checkout so they know we sent you helixsleep.com armchair. Now, my question on the father thing, just to land that is you personally, I can't imagine you're attracted to these stories that have have this driving force of a father son relationship and you yourself not have thoughts on yours.

[Walter Isaacson]

My father was the smartest person I've ever met, the nicest person I've ever met, the most loving person I ever met.

[Dan Shepard]

Fuck you, I guess, is what I want to say.

[Walter Isaacson]

My mother, too, one of the smartest people I ever knew and the most supportive. And I joke with Michael Lewis, who also has great family, is that, well, maybe that's why we're the observers and they're the ones shooting the rockets to Mars. My father was an engineer. Mechanical, electrical was his main thing. But he had an engineering firm that did electrical, mechanical and structural. And so one of the things about it was he taught me you can learn everything, as I said. And this, I think, should be the tagline of armchair expert. You can learn it which is in our house, which is still our family home in New Orleans on Napoleon Avenue. Huge basement and we had workshops, but it was also electronics and I'm kind of old. We remember tubes, and you could test the tubes and change them in the radio and soldering irons and heath kits. And we'd spend so much time doing hardware engineering and stuff. So I learned a love of science and engineering from him. And I think I went astray because then I studied history and literature and college. If I had had to do it over again, I would have become an engineer like my dad.

[Monica Isaacson]

You wish you had.

[Walter Isaacson]

Yes, because engineers can appreciate the beauty of history and poetry, but sometimes the humanists I know, they get, oh, oh, you know, I love Shakespeare. I love this part of history. But then you say something about a circuit and exactly what a resistor does or why a transistor makes. Oh, no, I can never do science. Well, yeah, you can.

[Dan Shepard]

Maybe not at the same pace your colleagues in class did, which is, I think, what informs people whether they can or cannot do something is like, oh, did I pick it up at the same rate as the people around me?

[Walter Isaacson]

Oh, it's not true. Really good point. Because when I went to college, I was going to do math and physics and science, and it was hard. And if you went to a Steven Greenblatt teaching Shakespeare, whoever you were, you'd be welcome if you went to a physics course and I took a couple, and I took a biochem course, and you weren't a scientist. You were made to feel. You just don't get it. You'll never get it. So they were not as inviting as they should have been.

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Isaacson]

Well, do you think maybe then you felt like, I'm not gonna be as good as my dad at this, so I might as well pivot?

[Walter Isaacson]

No, no. I don't quite know what it was. But I do think that nowadays, being able to fully understand the beauty of science and engineering is crucial to being part of the political and philosophical conversation. And what I've tried to do in my books, like James Watson, another person who's complex and has been canceled, but he writes a double helix, Felix. And it's a fun, beautiful tale, inspired Jennifer Doudna. But he smuggles in a lot of science. So to try to make Einstein's special relativity, here's this patent clerk who can't get a job at a university or anything, but he's trying to learn how to synchronize clocks because people are having patent applications, because the Swiss are pretty insistent that you can clocks be synchronized. And he's saying, well, what if I wrote alongside the signal that was synchronizing the clocks? Would time be the same to me? So understanding through the life of a person, trying to convey that science to me has a certain beauty to it.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah.

[Dan Shepard]

Okay. I wanted to ask your opinion as a professor at Tulane whose current enrollment, I looked it up this morning, is 62% female, 38% boys.

[Walter Isaacson]

I didn't know that. But that's interesting.

[Dan Shepard]

Is that something that you've observed in your time there? Are you worried about that? What are your thoughts on the changing kind of demographics of college students.

[Walter Isaacson]

That's a good question. I'd not noticed it in particular. One of the things that I have noticed is that when people came in five, six, seven years ago, their parents would say, I just want them to learn coding. I want my boy or girl to be a great software engineer so that that they'll have a job. AI comes along and ChatGPT can code better than 99% of most college coding students. But in some ways connecting human feelings and emotions to the technology, that's the skill. I've started with some of my students, including students who do AI and are computer science students, but also my history students. I'm pairing them and we've created a company called Boswell and Company. And what it does is it believes that everybody's got a story worth telling. And it uses Google Gemini notebook, but also anthropic, to gather all the data. And my students interview people and their families and we put it all together and we produce a biography for them. The reason I say this is because the people who can connect the humanities to the technology will succeed. And people say AI will destroy jobs. No, AI is going to open up whole new fields. Maybe 500 people get a biography or memoir written each year. It should be 5 million. Everybody should be able to do it. So we will have whole new products and our little company, which is doing it for people we know who ask us commissioners to do it, that will just show how this AI combined with the humanities will find new products and new jobs for people.

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah, it's almost a tall order because that's, I guess, what everyone already recognizes about him. What makes Jobs so unique was that he seemingly had the emotionality of the interaction being a priority as much as how good the product itself functioned. It seemed like he was very smart. Smart at recognizing you have to emotionally connect to this device.

[Walter Isaacson]

And one reason was just who he was. A great genius. But when he went to college to read before dropping out, he didn't sit there studying computer software engineering. He studied calligraphy, dance, music, art. And he really got a grounding in the humanities. And a sense, just a two word sense that's so important. Beauty matters. Just what you said. You said aesthetics matters, but he made it simple.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah, same thing.

[Walter Isaacson]

Beauty matters. And we're talking about Bill. I mean, Bill made some great products, but they both made a MP3 music player approximately the same time. And Microsoft made the Zune, which was really good in many ways, but Steve made the ipod, which was an object of desire.

[Dan Shepard]

Yes, it was a declaration of Your.

[Walter Isaacson]

Identity, even those heads and the earbuds and everything. So understanding the emotional connection, the humanities connection, is what made the ipod beat out the Zune.

[Dan Shepard]

Okay, so you're not sitting at Tulane going, where are the boys? And what's happening? And we got a problem.

[Walter Isaacson]

I haven't thought about that. Now I'm gonna have to go back.

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah, I generally don't desire to be.

[Walter Isaacson]

Around either, but we probably have a problem in our society, which is the K through 12, education and everything else. It used to be a sense that the world was gonna be a better place for each new generation. For example, if you're born when I was in the 1950s, you had an 80% chance of having a better life than your parents. If you're born when my students were born, say, I hate to say it, but, like, the year 2000, or even.

[Dan Shepard]

In the book, you say the 80s. The book.

[Walter Isaacson]

I say in the 80s. Right. But also in the year two, you have less than a 50% chance of doing better than your parents. And so this explains a whole alienation of a new generation, but it also explains, I think, the resentments in our politics and other things.

[Dan Shepard]

So the greatest sentence ever written is your new book. And it is conveniently coming out a month or two before we enter our 250th year anniversary of the Declaration of Independence in the country.

[Walter Isaacson]

Happy birthday.

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah, so that would be a very obvious reason to write this book, but I don't think that's the primary goal of the book.

[Walter Isaacson]

It was definitely a goal and a thought, which is, you're about to have a birthday party, and I don't know about your family. My family's pretty well. But, you know, if I have a big extended birthday party, there are people I hardly can speak to on some of my cousins. But you put it aside on your birthday and you say, we're family. We're common ground. Here's what we share. We have had this happening in our society maybe for the past eight to 10 years, where it just gets more and more polarized so that anything that happens, like, should I wear a mask in Covid, anything becomes so political and partisan that we polarize ourselves on it. Well, we're about to have a birthday party. Wouldn't it be nice if we could say, well, here's what we all agree on. Here's what the common ground is? And so I wanted to do something that says, what is our mission statement as a nation? Let's read it, understand it, and for a year at least, get along a Little bit better to say, well, yeah, we do hold these truths to be self evident.

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah, yeah. So there's a lot we're going to go through each one. It's so cleverly broken down. But I will say what strikes me immediately is I think we do suffer from not knowing history. Ask yourself, well, how did it come about? How did we learn to live in a group of 330 million people as one unit? And there's some stuff that predates our country. There's Hobbes and Locke. There's people that propose this notion of a social contract and you're going to leave the wild where you have unlimited rights. You see something you don't like, kill it, who cares? Take what you want. We're going to give up some liberty because we believe the net benefit's going to be much larger if we give up some of our liberty so that we can coexist peacefully. So maybe just even that notion is maybe a bit more foreign to people than I think would be helpful.

[Walter Isaacson]

Yeah. You've read the book, which is great, I love that because that is how we begin because we're doing a parsing of the sentence, we hold these truths to be self evident. And you start with the word we. And what does that mean? Well, it's not we, the 62 people gathered in Philadelphia. It's the social contract that we've decided to have. And our founders, particularly Jefferson, Franklin and to some extent John Adams, they were reading the people of that time and you mentioned them, John Locke, David Hume, the people saying, how did we come out of a state of nature in the prehistoric times where we're all fighting each other and how did we agree on how to have a government? And that's what the social contract is. Rousseau writes a book, Hobbes writes the book on it, Locke writes it. And these founders who are doing this Declaration of Independence, they base it on that Enlightenment period, meaning these philosophers like John Locke who said, how is it we come together as a society?

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah, I think people, a lot of people at least have this notion that I will live in this society and I will give up nothing to do so that it needs to be exactly how I think it should be. And anything short of that is unacceptable. It's like the original buy in is not floating around. It's like, oh no, no, no, no, I'll be giving things up to reap the rewards of all this. Yeah.

[Walter Isaacson]

I mean it's like when I'm driving here and there's a red light. Okay, I agree. I Generally, stop it.

[Dan Shepard]

It's inconvenient to you.

[Walter Isaacson]

And that's part of the social contract. And if you're going to have a society, a contract isn't just I get everything. It's here's the deal, we all hold hands and make. So if you look at the Declaration of Independence and you look at the sentence that I call the greatest sentence, it's we hold these truths and that's a contract that we've made. And if we all realize that maybe just that understanding, it's a social contract, and then we have common ground that helps reduce the temperature a little bit of some of our partisan poisonous debates at the moment. Yeah.

[Dan Shepard]

So as a historian, lay out a little bit of the context in which they're going to write this document. Cause I think people might think of it as being more monolithic than it was. Like it was anything but a unified group, that it inhabited the colonies. Yes.

[Walter Isaacson]

There isn't even a total consensus in January of 1776 that we're going to break away from the Crown. But at a certain point, ingrained in us is this notion of individual liberty. That's what Locke brings us with the social contract, as we're all in a state of nature as autonomous individuals. And then we make sort of let's hold hands and create a society. So it's based on individual rights rather than the rights of the king or the divine rights of kings, or the Constitution. That notion of individual rights is so important.

[Dan Shepard]

First of all, I don't know that everyone would just know who wrote it.

[Walter Isaacson]

You know, the wonderful thing, especially those of us who've been editors in our time, is that this greatest sentence, we hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal, is that one person. Then went through four drafts and then a final version. And of course, Jefferson is the first author. He gets to write the first draft. Would you have a committee? The Continental Congress says, okay, we're about to declare independence. A decent respect for the opinions of mankind means we gotta say why. And so they appoint a committee. It may be the last time Congress appointed a good committee, but it has Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams on it.

[Dan Shepard]

All making notes, scratching things out.

[Walter Isaacson]

And so, in fact. Can I grab the book?

[Dan Shepard]

Yes, please, please, please.

[Walter Isaacson]

Right here, we do it as the opening thing. This is the first draft. I don't know where the founders are. Oh, yeah.

[Dan Shepard]

And you can see it's a mess.

[Walter Isaacson]

There is a total. But here it is. We hold these truths. And then you see Jefferson, he writes to be sacred And Benjamin Franklin was a printer, so he had a dark black pen that did backslashes the way a printer. And he writes in self evident. And so part of the book is just explaining that sometimes innovation is a team sport, sometimes creativity is a collective endeavor. And that's what this sentence is about.

[Dan Shepard]

And the forces at play, you already have, have burbling. You have the South's entire economy dependent on cotton production and slavery, right?

[Walter Isaacson]

And you have Jefferson as The author enslaving 400 people.

[Dan Shepard]

At the time, the wealthiest part of the country is the south, that's dependent on slavery. You have already people in the north calling for an end of slavery in their colony. So that's already a very contentious issue. And so the way we word this is all incredibly important. And compromises are happening in all these sentences.

[Walter Isaacson]

And as Franklin said, you know, compromises may not make great heroes, but they do make great democracies. You gotta compromise. And one of the problems though, because it's not all great, sometimes you make a compromise that becomes sort of an original stain on the nation. And they have to do that in even the Declaration they're writing, all men are created equal. Now, I try to explain it, they call it a self evident truth because we all come from the state of nature. But how can they write that when one of them, Jefferson is a major slaveholder.

[Dan Shepard]

He's had children with one of his very underage.

[Walter Isaacson]

The person who is in Philadelphia in that room when he has his mahogany desk and he has Franklin and Adams, there is Thomas Hemings, the brother of his enslaved mistress, also a slave. They wrestle with this. The original draft in Virginia was that all men, and they're endowed with certain inalienable rights when they enter into a society. And that was supposed to exclude the slaves. Jefferson knew that just doesn't wash. And so you have the great contradiction of he just says all men are created equal. And yet even at his death, he doesn't free his slaves or his own children. Well, he doesn't free Sally Hemings, but part of the agreement with his mistress, Sally Hemings, who was enslaved, was that he would have freed their children. And he does. So it's all once again human and complex. But four score and seven years later, meaning when Lincoln is at the battleground of Gettysburg, when they're consecrating the cemetery there, he harks back and he says, a nation founded on the proposition that all men are created in equal. So you see the power of the sentence pushing us to progress.

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah, just want to put one more bullet Point on we, which is important. Prior to this, governments, as everyone knew, were pretty much ordained by either God or a royalty that had been anointed by God. So they were never by the people. So we is very, very powerful.

[Walter Isaacson]

That same word begins the greatest sentence ever written and it begins our Constitution, we the people. So you gotta understand that this isn't the divine right of kings or the power of conquerors. It's this notion of a society that says we will create common ground. And that's why I wrote this, because I want us to understand the struggle to create the common ground in the self evident truths.

[Dan Shepard]

You explain how Hume, David Hume, who Franklin was friends with and admired, said there's two kinds of truths. There's synthetic, and those are based on facts. The example you give is like Philadelphia is bigger than Boston. Well, we're gonna have to go out and do some census work to find out the answer to that versus analytic truth, which is all bachelors are unmarried. We don't need to go survey bachelors to find out if they're unmarried. The premise of the statement is in itself self evident, self evident. So that's the distinction. And then all men, obviously we're not including women, we're not including Native Americans. You point out in the book at that moment, a fifth of all people in the colonies were slaves.

[Walter Isaacson]

Right. And so to start with the self evident, Jefferson had written, we hold these truths to be sacred. And Franklin has been staying with David Hume in Scotland, the greatest philosopher of the time, as he said, somebody who wrote about contract theory and had come up with this note of self evident truths, all bachelors are unmarried versus truths. You have to go around and look. Well, when you say are created equal, Franklin says that has to be a self evident thing. Because if you actually go around and look, you'll say, wait a minute, I just talked to Magic Johnson. Walter's not equal to him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, somebody's not equal to Einstein. But what is self evident is that we all had autonomy in the state of nature and we came together as we all had this notion of coming together as a country. So politically we're created equal. But as you point out, they leave out a lot of people. Yes. And so the arc of American history is delivering on the aspirations of that sentence. And even Benjamin Franklin. To me, years ago I wrote a book about Benjamin Franklin. He's still a hero. He had two slaves when he was a young printer in Philadelphia, just worked in his print shop and then he realizes that's bad. They wander Off. He doesn't try to keep them, but he just knows it's something he's done wrong. And his whole life he keeps a ledger of the errata he had made and how he rectified it. Like he ran away when he was apprenticed. He breaks the indenture to his brother and runs away. He rectifies it years later by educating his brother's son anyway, he realizes the great sin was having one once owned a couple of slaves.

[Dan Shepard]

Yes.

[Walter Isaacson]

And so he becomes president of the Society for the Abolition of Slavery. He helps create schools for blacks and freed slaves in America. And his own personal arc to me is analogous to the arc of American history that eventually we have to say is all men. Well, no, that's an expansive term. It should mean all humanity. That's what all men should mean. And likewise, if you're going to say created equal, you got to make sure black or white or female, whatever it may be, we all have equal rights.

[Dan Shepard]

I was shocked to read this. In the book that Jefferson called slavery moral depravity. Absolutely and hideous blot. Yet is one of, in my opinion, as I read about all the forefathers, the most repugnant behavior in regards to his slavery. I mean, traveling Europe with a 14 year old that you impregnate is to me about as fucking low as it gets. So it's interesting to acknowledge that he had this contradiction that was very much alive.

[Walter Isaacson]

And it goes back to what we were saying at the very beginning. Even the heroes have great flaws, even the villains have backstories. And we shouldn't just say somebody's all or nothing. Wrestling with the complexity of Jefferson is so important. And you know, we went through a period where either every monument had to be taken down. Yes, but we probably should understand the contradictions and the dark sides of some of these people. I mean, I tend to write about Franklin cause he was very self reflective.

[Dan Shepard]

Who you want him to be. He follows the great arc of humanity.

[Walter Isaacson]

Right. But you can't totally dismiss Jefferson. And you should have Annette Gordon Reed. I don't know if she's been on this show.

[Dan Shepard]

No, no.

[Walter Isaacson]

And she wrote the Hemmings of Monticello at Harvard. African American historian. But she has this wonderfully complex view of Jefferson.

[Dan Shepard]

I need that. I've been saying I need to read something pro Jefferson.

[Walter Isaacson]

Well, Meacham has a somewhat nuanced thing and obviously Annette Gordon Reed's book is extraordinarily good. In this book, I'm trying to say, man, this is outrageous. Taking his enslaved mistress Even as he's written this declaration. I try to say, yes, but look at these people who together created this sentence for all of their flaws, they gave us our mission. And now it's 250 years, our birthday of that mission. Because we can all agree on that sentence. Let's reflect on it.

[Dan Shepard]

So another major tension of the time which is not foreign to us in 2025, is there was quite a bit of tension over how religious this text would be. That's the endowed by their creator.

[Walter Isaacson]

The next line, right, and begins with Franklin crossing out sacred and putting in self evident and we hold these truths. And then the sentence goes on and you have it in the book there, you can look at the edits and it says they're endowed with certain inalienable rights. And then you have what I think is John Adams's handwriting because he's the most conventionally religious. And he puts endowed by their creed creator with certain inalienable rights. So even in the editing of one half of this greatest sentence ever written, you see them balancing the role of rationality and reason with the dictates of religion. And basically the divine providence that we had as a nation, they're creating a balance. We've lost that today. Nowadays you're using the Ten Commandments to divide us. I was at CNN when I was was first studying this sentence because I was doing it for my Ben Franklin book. And I go in one morning and somebody says, oh, we have a great crossfire show. Judge Roy Moore has put the Ten Commandments in his courthouse in Alabama. A federal judge says, take it down. And they're going to have to send in the marshals. Everybody says, great, who are we going to get in favor of the Ten Commandments? Who are we going to get against? And I'm thinking, oh, good, we have a good crossfire tonight. And then when I went back and I was saying the founders are using, using religion and rationality to balance us. And here we were in the press and there they were, the politicians using the Ten Commandments to divide us. So that's another lesson we can learn from the Founders is this balance of the role of religion, the role of rationality and the role of tolerance.

[Dan Shepard]

I'm embarrassed to say I had never even heard the term deists until I was reading this chapter. Many of them were deists. What are Deists?

[Walter Isaacson]

Deists were very big in both Europe and the United states in the 1700s. Voltaire is to some extent Jefferson and Franklin are. And what deism is, which was basically the creed of Most of the people who wrote the Declaration in the north at least, is you believe in God, you believe in God as a great creator, but he set the universe in motion, their laws.

[Dan Shepard]

And he stepped up out it, stepped out.

[Walter Isaacson]

And Einstein believes in that too, which sets a beautiful laws and a wondrous cosmos for us to live in.

[Dan Shepard]

But he doesn't go around intervening, picking World Series outcomes.

[Walter Isaacson]

Yeah. That the saints who were here yesterday to play the ram. I could pray as hard as I want that the saints were going to beat the ram. But there's no God who says, all right, I owe Walter one, you know, let's have the saints beat the ram.

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah.

[Walter Isaacson]

He doesn't intervene. That's the deist creed that seems to.

[Dan Shepard]

Have died out entirely.

[Walter Isaacson]

I think a lot of people, Francis Collins, a great scientist who believes in God, who's a Christian. There are many people, I think, who believe in a benevolent creator endowed by the Creator, as our sentence writers put it, believe that the world and the universe has a miraculous set of laws, but there aren't miracles in which suddenly the laws of the universe are broken. Cause you prayed hard enough.

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah. It was a creator, not a super. It's not managing the apartment.

[Walter Isaacson]

Exactly. And it was also called Providence. In other words, the good Lord sets up a creation and we owe it to divine providence to understand the beauty of that creation. But it's not individual providence where the good Lord is intervening every day and deciding a going to help you out today.

[Dan Shepard]

And they were even specifically saying, I'm not in for that. Jesus was the son of that thing.

[Walter Isaacson]

I think they're all very rational. When I say all, let's pick Jefferson and Franklin, because those are the two who talk about it. It's in the book a bit. Franklin is the best, really, because he's a very rational person and he believes in the Creator and he believes that worshiping is good for a society. But Ezra Stiles, who was president of Yale, right. When Franklin is dying, says, okay, but do you accept the divinity of Jesus Christ? And Franklin writes back and he says, you know, I've sort of looked at that my whole life, and I've never decided to proselytize, to preach on it, because I'm just not sure. And it's not something I know he said. And I've quit worrying about it because I'm gonna learn soon enough the real answer. Knew he was dying soon.

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah.

[Walter Isaacson]

So if you look even at John Adams, he's that way. Which is they believe in the creat, but the notion of the divinity of Christ is something that some take on faith, but others feel they're not sure about it. Jefferson in particular takes the Bible and he creates what's called the Jefferson Bible, where he keeps in all of the great wise things of Jesus, all of the principles and the moral principles of Jesus, but he actually takes a regular and cuts out the miracle parts. Because Jefferson is such a deist and such a rationalist, he thinks that the Bible would be better if we listened to the moral preachings but didn't worry about how do you make, you know, loaves and fishes.

[Dan Shepard]

He sent that book to his nephew or something.

[Walter Isaacson]

The Jefferson Bible, you can see it in Monticello. It actually exists and it has the razor cutouts. It's once again something I don't proselytize on. I think everybody should have their own set of beliefs. But I think the key there's is to be tolerant. And this is what Franklin was saying. Different people are going to understand the divinity of Jesus differently. I think they all felt that we should have a respect for a great creator, a divine power that created us, but otherwise we should be tolerant. Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah, so it's interesting, you got these three dudes that are really nitpicking over all the wording. And even in this group of three, you've got a really wide range of how religious like Adams is definitely more. He's definitely more of an abolitionist than is Jefferson. You're sitting down with what would seem to be kind of unbridgeable differences.

[Walter Isaacson]

They would seem more unbridgeable than our differences today. Yeah, our difference, that's my point is, okay, how much health care should be considered into something that's a Medicaid, Medicare.

[Dan Shepard]

We want immigrants, but how many.

[Walter Isaacson]

We're arguing over what should be in the commons, how much health care should be in the commons, how much police protection, whatever it may be. Those are pretty simple enough arguments compared to the ones our founders had to deal with. And they successfully craft the sentence and then craft a declaration and then craft what may be the most astonishingly successful constitution imaginable. And as Franklin says, at the end, when they finish that sentence, they're voting on the declaration. And then he does it with the Constitution as well. He said, I never thought this was perfect, but it's as good as humans can do. And so with all of its flaws, let's be humble and hold hands and say, we have endowed this.

[Dan Shepard]

That's another thing I think we've lost the appetite for a little Bit is some places are just a good place to start. We're not there, but we need to start somewhere so the improvements can come.

[Monica Isaacson]

Also, I feel like the Benjamin Franklin thing that you said where he was very much righting his wrongs over time. Nowadays, I feel like what's so upsetting is we would look. Not we, but a lot of people would look at it and be like, oh, he was wishy washy, or oh, he's flip flopper, flip flopper, flip flop. It's so.

[Dan Shepard]

But that's unforgivable sin.

[Monica Isaacson]

Exactly. Again, on both sides, we do this of the political spectrum, we're like, oh, now they change their mind. You can't trust them. It's like, that's called growth. We should be able to let people change their mind.

[Walter Isaacson]

When I learn more, I change my mind. What do you do? And that's an old line, but we're stuck right now. We don't tolerate compromises or people who grow. That's what this book is about too, is we started a nation with a certain aspiration, but we had to grow and we had to get there. That's the core of it.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah, okay.

[Dan Shepard]

And then we get into what I think is the most moving part of the book and the thing that I appreciated reading most, and that is just about common ground in the pursuit of the American dream. So let's kind of define these things. People are very familiar with the term common ground, but it had a literal beginning. Common ground, right.

[Walter Isaacson]

Common ground, back in feudal times was the landowners and the great dukes and the earls and the. They had their land. But there was a certain parts of the land that were put in commons. They were called the commons. Everybody could graze their herds or grow things there. And it was for what we then called commoners. That's how we get the name commoners. They were the ones who didn't own land, but. But they could graze on the commons. And it comes even from John Locke. John Locke is a strong believer of private property. He believes that if you mix your labor with things you find in nature, you have a right to make that your private property. He is the philosopher who gives us the notion of free markets and private property. He has a caveat that says as long as there is enough and as. As long good left in the commons. So even in Boston, Philadelphia, and in Cambridge in colonial times, there was Boston Common, Cambridge Common. We think, okay, Boston Common is beautiful and it has a place where the swans. No, but that was a commons where people could do it. So for me, that's the metaphor that is at the core. Core of this sentence. What is this sentence talking about? It's saying common ground. And so what they did back then was they put not just land in the common for people to graze on, but they said, we're going to put certain things in the common. Ben Franklin did. He said, okay, we're going to put a library, services in the common. And this is Ben Franklin and his little group in Philadelphia.

[Dan Shepard]

You need to do two seconds on what a paradigm breaker that was having libraries. I don't think people understand the. The importance of just having access to books, how much that opened up your opportunity.

[Walter Isaacson]

It is the great symbolic nature of the commons in American Dream that everybody has access to information. And Franklin said when he created the Free Library of Philadelphia, which is the first library where everybody could come and use it, he said, we're going to create a society where anybody, whatever their birth, whatever their background, will be able to learn as much as the wealthiest people. And that allows everybody the opportunity. That's what America's about, having the opportunity. Yeah.

[Dan Shepard]

Cause books were elite. You had to be rich to own books.

[Walter Isaacson]

And Franklin goes around as a young tradesman in Philadelphia and he goes to all the wealthy people and he says, put your books in this library. Which ones can we borrow for it so we can create a community? So that was a symbolic commons. Likewise, he says, let's do a fire corps, volunteer fire department. Even when he died, he still had his bucket by his bed. Cause you had to keep your bucket if you're a volunteer fireman by your bed. So on his deathbed, he still has it. But when he's like 18 years old, his friends are creating a volunteer fire and they say, well, should it be for people who pay for it or should it be in the commons? They say, wait, it's not a good idea. If we let some houses burn and some don't, that's not gonna help the city. So we put that in the commons. We put the night watching Corn Police in the commons. And he even does a hospital that's a public private partnership done by people who donate. But there's a matching from the legislature and there's a lottery to pay for it. Cause he wants to put some healthcare in the commons. That's still what we're trying to do, is argue how much healthcare should be in the commons. Should there be free charity hospitals? Should there be Medicare medic? And if we realize that our debates are simply about how much gets put in the commons, then we can disagree, but at least we know it's not some existential fight. It's just a question of balance.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dan Shepard]

I needed to read this part and be reminded of this part because what I hear mostly in our public discourse is just this hatred for billionaires. It's like a very common hatred. And we're seeing some cities move to maybe more socialist measures. So I think I'm kind of living in the defense of the free market a lot in my head. And I am someone who thinks to Locke's point. If I make a pottery out of the clay I found in the ground, it's not your bowl. You know, I do believe that.

[Walter Isaacson]

Absolutely. And you've got Locke exactly right.

[Dan Shepard]

The principle I was choosing not to look at is the American Dream. The core of it is I can transcend my class. I mean, that's really. When we get into why did we form this country? We were rebelling in many ways against a very hierarchy, hierarchical class structure that was hereditary. I'm born into nobility, I'm born into aristocracy. And so we would all agree that's, that's not how it should be. The fundamental reason we didn't want anything to do with them is we wanted a merit based system that would allow you to transcend. And when I'm reminded of that, I do think, yes, the common goods are what ensure that and they're hugely important. Because if we are not a place that you can transcend your social class class, than we are in a nobility, we might as well be in a monarchy. And we have seen, and I acknowledge this increased elitism is now functioning virtually the same as inherited class when we look at the real statistics. So I just think this is a very important part of the book and I was really, really grateful to be reminded what its purpose is.

[Walter Isaacson]

Yeah. No matter how much you believe in private property or anything, there's a moral purpose of saying there'll be certain things that every kid has the opportunity to have. Every kid has access to every person. And that could be K12 education. We put that generally in the commons.

[Dan Shepard]

It's under attack currently.

[Walter Isaacson]

Yeah, yeah. Police protection, we put in the commons, some extent. Healthcare. Why do we do it? Not just because we're being sweet and generous, but because we want to be a land of opportunity. Which means whatever class you're born into, we're not like the old aristocracy we were fighting against when we created this country in which if you were born into the aristocracy with land, you'd always stay there. And if you were born a Commoner, it was hard to rise. We want to be a land of opportunity. And it got called the American Dream. That's the goal and the fundamental moral purpose of saying what do we put in the commons? And what do we. Well, we could debate that, but without having some things in the comm. It's not socialists to say hey, police protection and defense should be in the commons, it should protect everybody. And likewise debating how much health care should be in the commons, how much higher education should community colleges, or for that matter state colleges and universities be free. Is that something we want to put in the commons? Well, we can debate that like no, maybe we shouldn't.

[Dan Shepard]

And we can incrementally try things and.

[Walter Isaacson]

We can balance things and we can say and just yes, but we're going into a new. You know, when we went from the agricultural age to the industrial age a hundred years ago, we put into the commons a lot more like high school education should be in the commons. Everybody should get it for free.

[Dan Shepard]

That started with the industrial revolution.

[Walter Isaacson]

Yeah. When we were trying to go into an industrial age we realized, well, now we're going into a new age of AI and other things. Well, perhaps more is required to be in the commons, but that doesn't make you a socialist. This is say we should put in order to have a land of opportunity, have more access to education and you don't have to make it all or nothing. We could take some of these hugely poisonous fights we're having and saying, well it's just a question of calibrating how much healthcare should be in the commons, how much public education should be in the commons. Let's not make these existential fights. Let's look at it through the lens of what makes us a land of opportunity, what makes sure that we all have share some common ground. Because the moral purpose of the commons is not just to make things a land of opportunity, but it was also to give everybody a stake in society.

[Dan Shepard]

A buy in. Yeah, a buy in.

[Walter Isaacson]

Like look, look, you may not have been born wealthier, but you all have a stake in keeping this society. And nowadays some of the resilience, resentment comes because people enclose things. They make special VIP entrances.

[Dan Shepard]

Well, hold on on that. I have a whole section on the skyboxification. I think this is fascinating, but I just want to say yes, if we don't have that principle that anyone here can become anything they want, we don't really have a unique take on anything. I think that is the quintessential ingredient. And as it erodes it's good to remember. No, that's actually the thing we should all feel pride on.

[Walter Isaacson]

That's why for the past 50 years, we've been the engine of innovation since World War II. And yes, that notion of an American dream where everybody can rise, that was Ben Franklin's core principle when he's helping write this sentence. If you lose that, you lose something moral, which is every kid, every person deserves an opportunity to do the best again. But you also, from a practical sense, you erode the buy in people have for ourselves. They become resentful and they end up voting on the extreme.

[Dan Shepard]

These populist movements come up.

[Walter Isaacson]

Populist movements come up. Or left wing movements. And so if you erode the sense that we all have a stake in.

[Dan Shepard]

Society, then communism does start looking attractive.

[Walter Isaacson]

Correct. Or social fascism or authoritarianism. And we're seeing that not just in the United States, even in Japan, but all of Europe. And so even if you don't believe in the moral reasons for having a commons, which is that everybody should get an education, be able to do well, you say, okay, but just for practical purposes, if we don't want to undermine democracy.

[Dan Shepard]

Yes.

[Walter Isaacson]

We ought to make sure everybody buys into it.

[Dan Shepard]

Absolutely. Okay, so now let's talk about the skyboxification. Yeah, this is a bummer to read. And it's so true and so evident. And I am a beneficiary.

[Walter Isaacson]

I'm nominated this afternoon when I go to lax. First, let's give Michael Sandel, the greatest public philosopher of our time, credit. He came up with the notion of skyboxification. It's easy enough to understand. When I was young and went to Fenway park, including with Michael Sandel, we'd all go in the same entrance, we'd eat the same soggy hot dogs, we'd sit in the stands together. Now, even when you go and when I go, we probably different entrance to the VIP entrance, maybe, or you do at least, and maybe we're invited to the sky boxes and we don't all sit in the same stand. That's a metaphor for so many things in our society.

[Dan Shepard]

And I gotta add, wow. Yeah, it's a dramatic difference to the degree that now that I've been invited, I mean, I grew up looking at the outside of the red rope, but now on the inside of it, I can tell you it's so dramatically different that there are things that I wouldn't even do otherwise. Now it's so spoiling and the gap is so big in the experience that.

[Walter Isaacson]

People are sentiments, I guess. Right to be is another way of saying resentment, which is the way I put it. But sometimes it happens to me. You go to the airport and you're in the priority lane or the clear lane and people waiting in line are giving you that look like there's a slight resentment. These build up resentments. Probably when I go this afternoon to lax, I'm going to not say, well let me give up the TSA pre line or whatever it's called, but it happens in so many different ways. It used to. My father and grandfather growing up exactly where I did in New Orleans, all went to the public high school right in the neighborhood. Now Even K through 12 education, there's sort of a velvet rope that certain people get. Yeah, private is huge, healthcare, you name it. And it goes back like many things. And I mention it in the book, this book is not heavy philosophy book, but there's a paragraph that mentions it from John Locke, which is in that period they had what was called the enclosure laws. And what they did was they had the commons. Everybody got to graze their sheep on the commons, but they decided that certain people could have the right to enclose part of the commons and make it private. That has a really good impact in many ways. You get a lot more productivity if it's private, the yields go up, you have a huge agricultural revolution. How however, if you enclose off, if you fence off, if you velvet rope off too many things, it has a bad impact. And so whether it's our understanding of our founders personalities or of Elon's personality or of these things, we have to realize it's not all or nothing. There's a certain balance that yes, we want people to be able to enclose things. We want maybe even to have velvet ropes, but if you do it too much, you get a resentful society and a society in which people cannot rise to their own talents.

[Dan Shepard]

Maybe interesting or not, but Jefferson weirdly favored a meritocratic elite.

[Walter Isaacson]

He doesn't come off perfectly in this book. Both Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson start would become universities. University of Virginia and the Academy for the Education of Youth in Pennsylvania. That becomes Penn, University of Pennsylvania. And they have different mission statements. What Jefferson says is the point is we are going to to take the best 40, 50 kids and we are going to groom a new meritocratic elite. And those people are going to become the leaders of society. Franklin on the other hand says no, the university's purpose is to have everybody, whatever their innate talents be, to have a chance to do the best they can. Can with whatever assets they have. And we want everybody to move up. Well, creating a meritocratic elite, I don't blame Jefferson for all of this, but I blame my generation, which is at a certain point, maybe 50 years ago, we created a meritocracy of credentialed people who went to the right schools and.

[Dan Shepard]

Whose children, most importantly, in practice, it became hereditary.

[Monica Isaacson]

How is it meritocracy?

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah, we call it.

[Walter Isaacson]

Call it meritocratic because that was what James Conant Bryant did. When they invent the SAT and they say that's merit, people say, well, I believe in merit. What do you mean merit exactly? Is the ability to ace an SAT score pretty useful, but is that true merit? Franklin answers by saying, no. True merit is the ability to better serve your community and your country. That's what we call true merit. And so he was fighting Jefferson on that. So. So we created, and I mean by. We sort of a baby boom generation after World War II, a credentialed elite who went to the best colleges and got their kids in the, quote, best.

[Dan Shepard]

Colleges, SAT tutors and became the ones.

[Walter Isaacson]

Who thought that they could understand foreign policy better. And once again, Michael Sandel has a good book. You gotta get him on the show called the Tyranny of the Meritocracy. Because the meritocracy got a lot wrong after a while, including forever wars and things they got us into. But anyway, there is that notion that we created a new elite and that wasn't the best thing to happen. And it really starts happening in the 50s, 60s, 70s, and that elite. It happened in the Clinton years. Whatever you may think of the Clinton years, it was meritocratic. And people including Hillary Clinton would say things like, well, you should just go to college, and that way you won't be left behind in society. What made the 65% of the people who don't finish college looked down upon and that elite view of the credentialed should run our society was a bad thing.

[Dan Shepard]

Yes. I think that's a big issue we've not yet figured out how to tackle. In general, I see that as an enormous problem the left has that they are seemingly unwilling to confront.

[Walter Isaacson]

Well, it's not necessarily the left. It's sort of the neoliberal liberalism of the 70s, 80s and 90s, which is, you'll be fine if you just go to college, and if you don't, it's your fault.

[Dan Shepard]

Yes. And then some assumption that you had the same odds of attending college as everyone else, and frankly, that if you.

[Walter Isaacson]

Went to an Ivy League college. Somehow you had more merits.

[Dan Shepard]

Yes.

[Walter Isaacson]

We have to try to understand, and this is what this book is about, too. There has been a backlash of populism on the left and the right and globally. Certain people in the old neoliberal consensus who look down on the populist backlash. And I'm saying, no, no, no. There's really a lot of reasons. People, to use your technical term, are pissed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the reason they're pissed is we started losing the common ground. We started losing the American dream. We started losing the notion that we should be a land of opportunity. And that's why if we're gonna heal this great divide, I just Hope for our 250th, you don't have to read my book. Just read the sentence. We hold each other. And everybody should understand this sentence, say, okay, I get it now. Let's live by it.

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah. Talk about going forward. That's the last thing I wanted to talk about. Franklin said, yes, we must indeed all hang together, or most assuredly, we shall all hang separately. How can we all hang together?

[Walter Isaacson]

I think Franklin is the great guidepost because he is a great entrepreneur. He believes like you do in Minnie. And yes, you can succeed with private property. You can make things. He gets to Philadelphia because he's running away from being an indentured to his brother. He's got three coins in his pocket. It's the most wonderful scene. He tips the boatman, buys the three puffy rolls, gives one away. He says, when you're really poor, you're always more generous because you want people not to think you're po. So he's with his sweet coins being generous, and he comes into Philadelphia and it becomes a land of opportunity for him. Market Street. And he becomes, from that penniless. Oh, not penniless. Three pennies, kid. To, in some ways, one of the wealthiest people in America. Hard to count land owning and slave ownership and all that. But for somebody who creates printing shops and franchises them up and down the coast and becomes a publisher, he becomes enormous. And so that's the point of Franklin. But then he creates a group in his community and says, okay, how are we going to serve the common ground? And that's when he forms with his Leather Apron club, he calls it, because it's people who go to their shops each morning, put on their leather apron. It's not the elite, it's the shopkeepers. He says, we, the middling people. Shopkeepers, artisans, those. Those of us who go to work every day, we not only have the opportunity to succeed, we have to figure out what should we put in common so we become a land of opportunity. So I say, if we're going forward, try to be like Franklin and I talk about it at the end of the book, which is he starts a street sweeping corps, a police corps, a volunteer fire department, a hospital, and of course the library. An insurance fund for widows and orphans where everybody chips in almost like you'd have Social Security today. He said that's good for everybody if we put these in the commons. But he also has a revolving loan fund for entrepreneurs who want to start businesses. That's still today in Philadelphia and Boston. Those revolving loan funds that he started are still helping people in East Philadelphia start little businesses. He is a believer in capitalism, believer in enterprise, but also in making sure everybody has an opportunity. And then he does many other things, not just these loans funds, but during his lifetime, he donates to the building fund of each and every church built in Philadelphia. And then at one point, they're building a new hall, which is still next to Independence hall, still called the New Hall. He writes a fundraising document and says, even if the Mufti of Constantinople were to send somebody here to preach Mohammedism to us, we should offer a pulpit and we should listen for we might learn something. And then on his death, he's the largest individual contributor to the congregation Mikveh Israel, the first synagogue built in Philadelphia. So when he dies, instead of his minister accompanying his casket to the grave, all 35 ministers, preachers and priests link arms with the Rabbi of the Jews in Philadelphia and march with him to the grave.

[Dan Shepard]

Did you say 22,000? Is that the number in the book?

[Walter Isaacson]

That's the number of people who were, were at the funeral procession. And then it's led by the clergy of all.

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah, they're witnessing this.

[Walter Isaacson]

And that's the type of nation they were trying to create 250 years ago. That's what they were fighting for 250 years ago. And that's what we're still fighting for today. And the sentence can still guide us.

[Dan Shepard]

I know so many people have hard ons for the founding Fathers, you know, these young dudes who. I don't know if they've read any of the stuff, but like, I want them to know, like, if you want to idolize these guys, please idolize them. The right stuff about these guys. Yeah, that's incredible.

[Walter Isaacson]

And you have to realize when people read my biographies, they might say, oh, I'm just like Elon, you know, when people do something that sucks. I say, wait a minute. Have you ever sent a rocket into orbit?

[Dan Shepard]

You're not 5,000 satellites.

[Walter Isaacson]

My books are not how to manuals. They are real people. So learn from the good, learn from the bad, learn the cautionary parts. But in this case, the greatest sentence ever written. There were deep flaws when they said all men are created equal, but they did set us on the right mission.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Dan Shepard]

You're right. The greatest sentence ever written. I very much encourage you.

[Walter Isaacson]

It's very short.

[Dan Shepard]

I was gonna say if you have a short attention. This is the Isaacson book for you to take on. Walter, it's so great to have you in person. Such a difference. I really, really enjoy getting a sit down with you face to face.

[Monica Isaacson]

And I love this because you did this.

[Dan Shepard]

This is really important and I needed to hear it. Several words.

[Walter Isaacson]

I think we all should. You say, how can we do going forward? The two of you have a great platform to do it. But everybody listening has a great platform. Every day wake up and say, at least for our 250th birthday, I'm going to try to think, what can I do that helps bring us together and unite us versus being part of the things that polarize us.

[Dan Shepard]

We're on the same mission. What a delight. I can't wait to have you back when you write your next book.

[Walter Isaacson]

Can't wait to be back.

[Dan Shepard]

All we hope you enjoyed this episode. Unfortunately, they made some mistakes. Oh. Should we tell everyone our incredible discovery last night? Flying back from Nashville.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah.

[Dan Shepard]

As we were checking into our flight.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah.

[Dan Shepard]

That if Delta grows up and. And starts a company. Yeah. It's like Delta Company, but then she abbreviates it to Delta Co. Of course, Delta Co is Del Taco.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah.

[Dan Shepard]

I can't wait for her to start. I wonder if Del Taco will come after her for infringement and she'll go, I've had this name. This is my name.

[Monica Isaacson]

This has been my name my whole life.

[Walter Isaacson]

I countersue.

[Monica Isaacson]

They can't come after her because it's Delta co. It's just pronounced Del Taco. Yeah. I mean, this is great. She has to start one now like she has no other option.

[Dan Shepard]

I actually should look into incorporating her immediately.

[Monica Isaacson]

You really should.

[Dan Shepard]

Well, that's it. Sometimes you just get a little blessing lands in your lap. And that's what it felt like last night.

[Monica Isaacson]

I agree. Do you want to talk about the fact that I'm platinum?

[Dan Shepard]

That was embarrassing. That was pretty embarrassing.

[Monica Isaacson]

So, yes, we flew back last night because we had a really fun interview. That we did in Nashville. And then we came back home, you, me, and the kids. Kristen had come home earlier.

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Isaacson]

And we're in line ready to, you know, check our bag. Check our bags. And somehow we got on the subject. Oh, I think Lincoln. Lincoln asked, are you platinum? She said, what are you? Or something like what Rank?

[Walter Isaacson]

Yeah.

[Dan Shepard]

Which. Why on earth would she have brought that up? I don't even know if she knows about the frequent frequent flyer wrongs on the ladder. Well, now she does. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Monica Isaacson]

I think they just overheard something. They asked me and I said, well, I'm platinum. But it was. It was a sim. Because I had written down already that I wanted to talk to you about this because when I was flying out on my way to Nashville, there was a man in front of me. A young man. Young fit man. Uhhuh.

[Dan Shepard]

Who? You left out the fit girl. I did. Young.

[Monica Isaacson]

I did.

[Dan Shepard]

How young? 18.

[Monica Isaacson]

No, no, no. Like my age.

[Dan Shepard]

Oh, Jesus. Okay, so middle aged.

[Walter Isaacson]

How dare you?

[Monica Isaacson]

No, because he. He was young to. To have. When the lady checked him in, say thank you for being a diamond member or whatever.

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah. What are they even saying? I forget diamond club.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah. And I overheard it and I was like, diamond, Whoa. But I'm platinum. Like that's the highest. So like maybe diamond's right below it. But I don't remember them ever saying diamond to me. A lot was going on through my head. So then, you know, I checked in. Thank you for being a platinum. Platinum flyer, remember? Whatever. And then I went and had to look it up. Diamonds that above Platinum.

[Dan Shepard]

Did you. Do you remember how many miles you have to fly to earn that status?

[Monica Isaacson]

Over 50.

[Dan Shepard]

50 million.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah. Let's Rob, do you want to look?

[Walter Isaacson]

Yep.

[Dan Shepard]

Rob, do you know how to look?

[Walter Isaacson]

Lifetime is 3 million actual miles.

[Monica Isaacson]

Lifetime.

[Dan Shepard]

Okay.

[Walter Isaacson]

You need to spend $28,000 in medallion qualifications, Vacation dollars each year.

[Dan Shepard]

I mean, what are we talking about?

[Walter Isaacson]

Not just mild blown. It's like 11 per dollar.

[Monica Isaacson]

Okay.

[Dan Shepard]

I know nothing.

[Monica Isaacson]

Well, I looked it up and I was like, you know what this guy. And then it got me so curious. I was like, who's this guy? Like he flies so much and he's so young.

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Isaacson]

And he's so fit.

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Isaacson]

But also so the youth may was interesting because it's like, oh, he. He flies a lot. It's not like he's like 80. Then diamond might make sense.

[Dan Shepard]

Right?

[Monica Isaacson]

You know, it's like this.

[Dan Shepard]

Born in an airplane. Yeah.

[Monica Isaacson]

So this was very curious.

[Dan Shepard]

Do you know, I have a friend who maybe I've Already told you this story. But he had. It must have been diamond status or something. Right.

[Monica Isaacson]

Elusive.

[Dan Shepard]

And when you have that one, you get the free upgrade like every time.

[Monica Isaacson]

Right.

[Dan Shepard]

You can buy a coach ticket if you're diamond. You will get upgraded to first class almost all the time. He had this crazy status and he liked to travel and he wasn't rich.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah.

[Dan Shepard]

And his weird thing was, and I remember one time, it was like the end of the year was approaching and he needed another 15,000 miles and he went online and he found like, just started searching for like the longest trip possible, possible for the cheapest.

[Monica Isaacson]

Uhhuh.

[Dan Shepard]

I want to say on like December 30, he flew to Malaysia and then just flew back. No. Yes. That's where it's getting to keep his diamond status. Oh.

[Monica Isaacson]

But see, I get it. I get you want. You want it. It's very.

[Dan Shepard]

You don't want to lose it. It's the by loss bias or whatever they call it.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You have a little bit of glitter, I see.

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah. You know I put on that birthday hat at Bricktop.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yes.

[Dan Shepard]

And I still have glitter in all these places. Yeah. That thing got everywhere. Somehow I have washed my face, rest assured. I don't know. It's embedded or maybe I consumed some and they're now getting expressed out of the pores.

[Monica Isaacson]

I think that's fun. Maybe all year there's just gonna be glitter popping out.

[Dan Shepard]

So back to line. We discover your platinum and we discover I'm gold. Well, I tell you. Oh, that's weird. I just got an email and I'm terrible at logging, putting my number in when I fly, and I got a whole reason why. And you know, it's so boring. But it's like every time I've ever tried to use those miles, it's a joke. Every time it's a blackout. Every. It ends up when I've used it, it ends up being like120,000 miles to get a coach seat or something. And I'm like, this thing's a record now. A lot of people have great luck with it. And I. And I concede to that. All to say, I go up to the counter first with the girls, check in, and the woman behind the counter at some point, thank you for your gold status. And then you start laughing immediately, kind of behind. And then I like look at you. And then obviously she clocks this whole thing somehow. And so then I step away. I've checked in the bags and now you step up and we're like, whatever. Eight feet away from you. And when she checks you and she's like, oh my, we are so delighted to have your platinum status. Did she like scream platinum status? It was status.

[Monica Isaacson]

It was really funny.

[Dan Shepard]

She hit platinum stats status like three times.

[Walter Isaacson]

She did.

[Dan Shepard]

She was a party.

[Monica Isaacson]

She was, she was really fun and it was very funny.

[Dan Shepard]

And then the flight. Yeah. Me holding in the farts and the.

[Monica Isaacson]

Well, yeah, you. You had a lot of farts and pee that you kept in.

[Dan Shepard]

The gal next to me was asleep.

[Walter Isaacson]

Yeah.

[Dan Shepard]

And boy, she looked like she was really peacefully sleeping. I could not bring myself to wake her up to. To get out.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah.

[Dan Shepard]

And a couple things happened. One, I had to pee really bad.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah.

[Dan Shepard]

Two, I had a fart so bad.

[Monica Isaacson]

And I'm just really surprised you didn't do it.

[Dan Shepard]

I couldn't do it. Cuz I was like, if this a woman wakes up cuz she smells something, I just, I. I couldn't do it. And I had a bad hunch it was going to be aromatic.

[Monica Isaacson]

Right.

[Dan Shepard]

So I held it and it was so uncomfortable. And then additionally, mid flight, Delta comes up to my seat and she goes, will you get my bag down, daddy? And I go, I can't because she's sleepy and I can't step over, blah, blah, blah. And she looked like kind of frustrated to the point where I felt really bad.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah.

[Dan Shepard]

So she left. She went back to her seat and I was thinking, I was like, God, if you're a little person and you just can't reach your bag, how powerless that is. But you have a daddy. And so you ask him and he says no. I started feeling really kind of quite bad about it to the degree that when we landed, I wanted. I said to her, hey, if I were you and I were little and I couldn't reach my bag and I. I'd be very frustrated and I'm really, really sorry, but I just really didn't want to make. And then she hit us with. She had had an enormous calamity of.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She had.

[Dan Shepard]

She had poured an orange juice all over her shirt, all over her pants, through her underwear. So this poor girl, when she was wanted her luggage, she was soaking wet with apple juice and sticky. And then the best part is she was explaining to us how she dealt with it, which again, I'm kind of glad I didn't get her bag because she just had to deal with it.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah, true.

[Dan Shepard]

And she, I think she told us she was pulling her pants down.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah. But no one could see.

[Dan Shepard]

But no one could see.

[Monica Isaacson]

They could air out just a man.

[Dan Shepard]

Imagine like walking by in one of the rows and there's just this little kid with their pants down. Yeah.

[Monica Isaacson]

Just watching their iPad with their pants down.

[Dan Shepard]

Watching 10 Things I Hate about you.

[Walter Isaacson]

Yeah.

[Monica Isaacson]

But okay, so there was a guy next to me on the flight and.

[Dan Shepard]

Oh, I peeped him.

[Monica Isaacson]

Oh, you did? Yeah.

[Dan Shepard]

I mean I saw that there was. You were sitting next to this man.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah, I was sitting next to this man and in the middle of the fight.

[Dan Shepard]

Sorry.

[Monica Isaacson]

Okay.

[Dan Shepard]

I did receive a text message at one point before we took off and I looked and it was a text message from my friend Monica who is several rows behind me. And she just said, I heard you cough. I am the worst man. I'm just. I am the worst.

[Monica Isaacson]

It's. It's distinct your cough, but I just know your cough. Everyone, no one else, everyone just hears people coughing.

[Dan Shepard]

I just really can't figure out if it's a tick or I have a condition cuz I have a lot of stuff. It's not like I'm just dry coughing. Coffee. God, this is disgusting.

[Monica Isaacson]

I'm so happy you say you're saying this out loud.

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Isaacson]

Because I didn't feel like I could ever say this to you.

[Dan Shepard]

I think you've already said this to me. I have. Yeah. About the nose blowing.

[Monica Isaacson]

I just think you have some tit.

[Dan Shepard]

I do.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah. I have text you. We all have things. But like I think you have. I know. I notice it in editing. That's when I really notice him where I'm like, like he's not. He. It's. It's like it's a tick that you're coughing and like clearing and stuff and like nose blowing and stuff. Because, Because I know. I don't. It's like anthropologically interesting. It's not annoying. It's fine.

[Dan Shepard]

But is it chicken or the egg? I think I have like some issues. I had asthma.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah. I don't think it's like out of nowhere.

[Dan Shepard]

Right. It's not entirely psychosomatic.

[Monica Isaacson]

It's not, but it's 50.

[Walter Isaacson]

50.

[Monica Isaacson]

Say it's 80 20.

[Dan Shepard]

It might be 80, 20.

[Monica Isaacson]

I mean in here. Sometimes I feel like it happens.

[Dan Shepard]

Oh, you're really scared to say this. I can.

[Monica Isaacson]

Well like either you're like a little. If you get a little like agitated or something. I think, I think like something.

[Dan Shepard]

Or even you saying I was like.

[Monica Isaacson]

Like, I know that face.

[Dan Shepard]

I just felt like I was like, oh.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah, it's really funny. We all, we have so many idiots.

[Dan Shepard]

I just don't want to thank everyone in my life. Like, clearly everyone in my life is very tolerant of the amount of noises I'm making.

[Monica Isaacson]

It's fine. Who cares? Anyway, so there was a guy next to me and, and he was young and.

[Dan Shepard]

What did you say, fit? Yeah, yeah.

[Monica Isaacson]

No, he was like, he seemed a little younger than me, so he was prime. And he was reading his book and stuff. He was, it seemed like he was so solo. Right?

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Isaacson]

Some point in the flight, like, look over and he's talking to the. A girl, a young woman next to him on. But I was, I noticed that too. Okay. Yeah, he was reading his book and he was just like being. I. He wasn't talking to her until all of a sudden he was. And to me in the middle of the flight, like, like I look over and he's just like talking, you know, And I kind of am looking and I'm trying to listen a little bit, but I have headphones in you, so I couldn't really hear, but it seemed to me they were meeting.

[Dan Shepard]

Oh, meet cute.

[Monica Isaacson]

And I was, I was like, oh my God, meet cute is happening. Yeah, yeah. And then. This is funny. Yeah. Then I was like, you got jealous. Yeah, I did, I did. I was like, what the f. I'm sitting right here.

[Dan Shepard]

Hey. Hello.

[Monica Isaacson]

Sitting right here.

[Dan Shepard]

Diamond status. Platinum. What are you? Platinum? I'm pleather status.

[Monica Isaacson]

And he, he hates me so much. I'm so gross. He has to go across the aisle.

[Dan Shepard]

He'd rather cross the aisle.

[Monica Isaacson]

Exactly.

[Dan Shepard]

No, but hold on now you. I gotta. Yeah, you can't build this argument because I was already witnessing it before you ever sat down.

[Monica Isaacson]

I know, but listen, okay, the trolley had left the station, so. So they're falling in like, you know, they're, they're flirting so they're chitchatting. And I was like, oh my God, a meet cute. And I was like, man, I feel conflicted about this cuz I love meet cute. So I'm like, I'm happy this is happening for them, but also like, hello, I'm right here. Like, this is so rude.

[Dan Shepard]

So. And then, well, could have turned into a challenger situation.

[Monica Isaacson]

Oh, I know. And I looked for the movie on the plane. It wasn't.

[Dan Shepard]

That's safest.

[Monica Isaacson]

So. So then I would have really got his attention.

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah, yeah. You nudged him and you pointed during the three way and then you nudged him and said, nudge her. Hey, you see what's happening here? Does this interest you? This concept of three people getting together intimately?

[Monica Isaacson]

Okay. So then at one point and I am an observer and I am kind of closing my eyes a bit. Little lot in the flight. So this is part of it. I guess so. Then at one point I look over and I'm like, oh, he has a wine. He hadn't had a wine.

[Dan Shepard]

Right?

[Monica Isaacson]

Or a drink or anything.

[Dan Shepard]

But his date was going great.

[Monica Isaacson]

Exactly. I was like, oh my God, he has a wine now. Like they're like literally on a date. But then I look over and I was like, oh, she's not there anymore. Okay. Then I was like, oh my God, she went to the bathroom, she asked him to hold her wine. I was like, what a move.

[Dan Shepard]

Hold on a second. Well, that's an interesting conclusion. Why isn't it his wine?

[Monica Isaacson]

I know.

[Dan Shepard]

Did you think you would have saw him order it?

[Monica Isaacson]

I was like, I would have known that.

[Dan Shepard]

I got you. Look over and the wine had just materialized. Exactly, I got you. That's more.

[Monica Isaacson]

It had materialized. It was a white wine. I was like, I know her. She was like, do you mind holding my wine? Like she didn't want to leave it out in the open. Like with this other stranger. Like the counterpart to think how that guy felt. I know, I felt horrible for him.

[Dan Shepard]

What if you two would have caught eyes and rolled your eyes.

[Monica Isaacson]

We got to meet cute.

[Dan Shepard]

That would be fun. But what would be more fun is if you guys just caught. You guys were both watching them and then you got caught eyes with each other and you both rolled your eyes. These two losers. Cuz you were hurt.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah, exactly. These two. What the.

[Walter Isaacson]

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

[Monica Isaacson]

So I, I was like, I put it together. I was like, oh my God, what a move. Rewind. But it's also scary move because she doesn't know him. Like he could put something in there. She should have asked me if she was being smart. But anyway. And then I do see her come back and she, you know, she's smiling at him. And then she sits down and I am, I'm watching at this point, I'm watching them, my show, my TV show. And he gives her the wine.

[Dan Shepard]

You were right.

[Monica Isaacson]

I was right.

[Dan Shepard]

Oh, wow, thank you.

[Monica Isaacson]

Then I really in my head was like, they are just mean. Like the way she said thank you did not feel like if you held my wine.

[Dan Shepard]

Right, right, right.

[Monica Isaacson]

And I was like, oh my God, it's for sure meet cute.

[Dan Shepard]

How do you know they weren't together then? Oh, I forgot. We're in a Seinfeld episode. I forgot.

[Monica Isaacson]

Stop, stop cutting to the end. Stop fast forwarding. So Then I'm, you know, stewing.

[Dan Shepard]

Wow, you had a lot going on back there.

[Monica Isaacson]

I did. And I was like, God, I, you know, I can't get a stylist. No one wants to meet you.

[Walter Isaacson]

Me.

[Monica Isaacson]

And, and, and then there was like a second of turbulence. Like not very long.

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah. I don't even remember it exactly.

[Monica Isaacson]

And you know, I'm kind of like just close my eyes and then I look over. They're holding hands.

[Dan Shepard]

Monica. They were already together.

[Monica Isaacson]

Nope. They're holding hands across the aisle. I was like, oh my, They've gone from strangers to in love on this.

[Dan Shepard]

No way. They just went on the flight and they were holding hands during the turbulence.

[Monica Isaacson]

This went from 0 to 100 so fast. And then I did have to think, wait, did they come together? But how? Because like he was just reading his book. He wasn't talking to her pre flight at all. I don't know. Still unclear. But I do think they went home together.

[Walter Isaacson]

Yeah.

[Dan Shepard]

Cuz they came together.

[Monica Isaacson]

No, cuz they fell in love. It was an eventful flight.

[Dan Shepard]

It was.

[Monica Isaacson]

A lot happened.

[Dan Shepard]

We got home very late.

[Monica Isaacson]

We did.

[Dan Shepard]

Very, very late.

[Monica Isaacson]

We really did.

[Dan Shepard]

But we had so much fun in Nashville.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yes, we did.

[Dan Shepard]

Yes. We had a very fun birthday party. Yeah.

[Monica Isaacson]

It was your birthday. We went to your favorite restaurant. It was so good.

[Dan Shepard]

It was so delicious. And I want to give a shout out to my neighbor Nate. I got so lucky with our neighbors in Nashville.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah.

[Dan Shepard]

One of them is Nate, my neighbor who we're the same age. Yeah, I kind of like that.

[Monica Isaacson]

That's fun.

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah, it is. I really like it. But he has grandkids.

[Monica Isaacson]

Oh wow.

[Dan Shepard]

Cuz he started real early.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dan Shepard]

In some ways we're living different lives. Cuz he already has grandkids. But I just, I guess if I see a guy my age that's like crazy active with his grandkids. He's so active with his grandkids. I just immediately go like, that's a guy right there.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah.

[Dan Shepard]

That's a standup dude.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah.

[Dan Shepard]

And my experience having neighbors in Michigan way different than my experience is having neighbors in LA in general. I don't know people that are friends with their neighbor. I don't have a single friend in LA and I have 35.

[Monica Isaacson]

Right.

[Dan Shepard]

They do not hang out with their neighbors.

[Monica Isaacson]

That's true.

[Dan Shepard]

I'm friendly to my neighbors.

[Walter Isaacson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dan Shepard]

But when I go back to Aaron's house in Michigan, there's no fences in the backyards. And when it's summertime, it's like, everyone's grilling, everyone's talking. People are walking back and forth in the. The yards. You know, it's a community here. We're just very anonymous. You know, there's just so many of us and we're very anonymous. And so whatever. It's just been 30 years since I had that kind of neighborly feeling. And I really love it.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah, it's nice.

[Dan Shepard]

It's special. It feels like, protective, like, I got your back. I'm watching out for. Hey, I noticed this thing at your house and I, you know.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah.

[Dan Shepard]

It's just very nice. I like it.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah. Actually.

[Walter Isaacson]

Yeah.

[Monica Isaacson]

That's funny. I noticed that when I was in. When I was home in Georgia, I was at my friend's house, Christina. Kids were coming over and I was like, that's so cute. And I did have that growing up also in Georgia and in Tennessee, we would just like go to each other's houses.

[Dan Shepard]

Just in general. I do cherish that whole neighborhood vibe with a bunch of little kids.

[Monica Isaacson]

It is really nice. I agree.

[Dan Shepard]

I think we need to do one last thing.

[Monica Isaacson]

Okay.

[Dan Shepard]

And it's a New Year's resolution update. Cause it's pretty comical.

[Monica Isaacson]

Okay.

[Dan Shepard]

Which is if people remember, my resolutions were sprints.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yes.

[Dan Shepard]

And not being affected by people's emotions.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah.

[Dan Shepard]

And so January 2nd on my birthday. And this part I feel a little guilty about. But I didn't ask anyone to do it. But I think people did sprints. Cause it was my birthday.

[Monica Isaacson]

Sure they did. Yeah.

[Dan Shepard]

So it turns out like six of us. Not me, not you. You knew better. And mind you, we made a ton of jokes about don't get hurt. Also, I laid out this whole strategy. Like anytime I get back into sprints, I like to do like 70% the first time, then 80 and a build.

[Walter Isaacson]

My.

[Dan Shepard]

Maybe my fifth time doing sprints, I'm full out.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah.

[Dan Shepard]

There were six of us.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah.

[Dan Shepard]

And my f. I caught. My competitiveness took over and Eric was like. I could hear Eric behind me. So I was like turning on the turbo jets. And the goal was to do six 30 second sprints, which again, too long. Not the boy, anyone. When I've done the sprints in the past, it's generally like 40 yard dash.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah.

[Dan Shepard]

A 30 second sprint's like 200 meters.

[Monica Isaacson]

I. I said this on the last. I was like, that's too long.

[Dan Shepard]

It's too long. Anyways, on the fourth one, we're walking back and I'm like, ooh, my calf feels dicey. But I can get through two more sprints. And then on that same walk back, Eric was like, I'm out. Just tore something in my butt cheek. And I'm like, I'm still in. And I got a third of the way through my fifth sprint. I was like, oh, my God, I got to stop. I think I might be tearing something.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah, I'm glad you stopped.

[Dan Shepard]

All to say, the sprinting resolution is. Is proving to be more challenging. We're hoping that was Friday. I'm hoping by this Friday my cat feels good enough to resume.

[Monica Isaacson]

You're going to do it again?

[Dan Shepard]

Got to.

[Monica Isaacson]

Okay.

[Dan Shepard]

But it was very comedic to wake up the following morning and Eric and I can't walk. We're both, like, hobbling around the house. Welcome to fif 50s.

[Monica Isaacson]

No, that. I said. I said no one above 35 should be doing this. Is hard on the body. Really Too hard. Anyway, yeah, so that's over. Also, I want to give an update, too. I do have a stylist now.

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah, so.

[Monica Isaacson]

And I'm really, really excited about her, and she seems awesome. And so we're gonna. We're gonna give it a whirl. All right, well, do some facts.

[Dan Shepard]

Yes, ma'.

[Walter Isaacson]

Am.

[Monica Isaacson]

Okay. So, Walter, I got my dad this book for Christmas, and he read it all. Read the whole thing in an hour. It's a small book, but. Yeah, he. He blew through it. And he loved it.

[Dan Shepard]

He loved it.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah.

[Dan Shepard]

Well, did. Did he. Well, like, when he reads a book like that, will he then want to talk about some of the things he learned in. Or he just wants to say he liked it.

[Monica Isaacson]

He does want to talk about it, but I had to go to my room. Room. Because I was tired.

[Dan Shepard]

So he did want to talk about it?

[Monica Isaacson]

No, he just said, oh, I read one of the books.

[Dan Shepard]

And you go, okay, I'm going to bed. Wake me up when you don't want to talk about that book.

[Monica Isaacson]

No, he just was like, yeah, it was really interesting. And, I mean, he said a few things about it. Yeah, but they were watching a movie. I don't know. Like, anyway. And now he's reading Sapiens. I bought him that, too.

[Dan Shepard]

He had not ever read it.

[Monica Isaacson]

He doesn't read a lot.

[Dan Shepard]

Not a big reader.

[Monica Isaacson]

He's busy.

[Dan Shepard]

But now that he's fake retired.

[Monica Isaacson]

Exactly. That was sort of it. He was like, you know, I wanna.

[Dan Shepard]

We had a riot talking about his retirement last night.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah. Yeah. My sweet dad.

[Dan Shepard]

I was saying, because your dad is retiring, but he's also coming back as a consultant. Yeah.

[Monica Isaacson]

A contract. Yeah.

[Dan Shepard]

Contractor or whatever.

[Monica Isaacson]

Contractor.

[Dan Shepard]

And I was Saying I would be a little mad if I was one of his co workers. And we threw a big, big retirement party on Friday. Everyone got hammered and they had a hangover. And then you got to work on money. You saw a sh. Sitting at his desk drinking coffee. You be like, what? That's not how this works.

[Monica Isaacson]

I know, I know. Luckily, no one threw him a party. Well, exactly.

[Dan Shepard]

Is he sad about that?

[Walter Isaacson]

Did you.

[Monica Isaacson]

He doesn't care about anything.

[Dan Shepard]

He doesn't care about anything. I love how you like. We both agree your dad's one of the smartest people on the planet, but then you also make room for him being the one. One of the dumbest people on the planet.

[Monica Isaacson]

Not dumb. Not dumb.

[Dan Shepard]

Just unaware.

[Monica Isaacson]

Just not like, what he's not interested in, he's not interested in right at all. Like, he. He doesn't care about a lot of things. Oh, you know what's fun? You just don't get to see your parents in other environments often than. Than them being your parent.

[Dan Shepard]

You don't get to see them with their other identities.

[Monica Isaacson]

Exactly. But one of my dad's co workers came over to pick something up, and she's a friend of my dad's, too, and they worked together for a long time, but now she's in another department or something. But anyway, she was chatting with us, and, like, it was so fun to see, like, him in with her, talking about their work and their history and, like, you know, my. The her. His friend was like, I'm glad I'm not in that department anymore. It would be too sad to know you were retiring. Yeah.

[Dan Shepard]

And, like, also, she loved working with your dad.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah. And then even talking about, like, how my dad is, and I mean, I shouldn't be surprised by this, but, like, the best one there.

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah. Not a joke. Yeah, no doubt.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah.

[Dan Shepard]

Oh, your dad was a love team hearing that.

[Monica Isaacson]

I know.

[Walter Isaacson]

Yeah.

[Monica Isaacson]

And. And, I mean, I was so proud of him.

[Walter Isaacson]

Yeah.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah.

[Dan Shepard]

You got a very good one. I know there's a lot of them out there, and you got a very.

[Monica Isaacson]

I got a really good pair. I have to say, I. Even. So I was getting my nails done this morning, and I was talking to the nail esthetician, and. Yeah. We got on the subject of my parents, and we. Because I was talking about moving into the house, and. And she was like, wow, that's such a big deal. And I was like, yeah, it is exciting. And she was asking about, like, why Cam, and I was like, oh, for acting and commercials, whatever. And I was talking about my first Commercial. My first big commercial, the Herbal Essence commercial. And I'd forgotten some details, but I was telling the story and I was remembering that, you know, I had like, it was like three callbacks for that commercial. My agent called me and was like, can you be here in like, two hours? Can you come in in, like, two hours or doing another callback? It's like three people. It's down to three people. You and two other people. And my parents were in town. I was with them. We were in Santa Barbara.

[Dan Shepard]

Oh, we're their favorite place.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yes. India. And I said, I'm in Santa Barbara with my parents. Parents. Like, no, I can't.

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Monica Isaacson]

And then, you know, my dad was like, what's going on? And I was like, well, there's a call back. And, you know, I can. He was like, we're going. Yeah, right now. And I was like, what? I was like, I don't think. Well. And he was like, we're going. Like, I. We didn't come out here to do that.

[Dan Shepard]

To quit on the 99th yard line.

[Monica Isaacson]

Hang out in Santa Barbara, like. So he drove us back immediately. And then, you know, I booked it and that was my first big commercial. And they were there. And they were there for my booking. And my dad said, he said on that trip, because, you know, obviously we had been driving around LA and looking at houses and all these things, and he said, you're gonna have one of those houses one day, and I'm about to move into it, so. And then I was telling her this, and I was like. She was like, that's, she was like, what, What a good dad. And I was like, he is. Is like, they are. And I really do not.

[Dan Shepard]

It's your right as the child.

[Monica Isaacson]

I don't, I don't think about those specificities. I know, and I know, like, how good I have it, but those things, it's like, yeah, they're just really good ones.

[Walter Isaacson]

Yeah.

[Monica Isaacson]

And I'm very, very, very lucky. But. Yes, but I hate them.

[Dan Shepard]

But you finish.

[Monica Isaacson]

But they drive me nuts. Sure, they're family, but that's because they're family. But I, I, I love them very much.

[Dan Shepard]

So anyway, well, I'm emotional now.

[Monica Isaacson]

I understand. I understand. They're nice people. Well, I have a birthday present for you.

[Dan Shepard]

You do?

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah.

[Dan Shepard]

Oh, my God. Oh, my goodness. This is fun. This is unconventional size box.

[Monica Isaacson]

I know you like.

[Dan Shepard]

Generally, when you get me something, it's a clothing item and it's in a bigger box.

[Monica Isaacson]

Okay. It is a clothing item in a tiny box.

[Dan Shepard]

Oh, my God. No way. A Kmart shirt.

[Monica Isaacson]

It's a Kmart shirt, but it's also a dare shirt.

[Dan Shepard]

Oh, my God. Kids against drugs.

[Walter Isaacson]

Lame.

[Monica Isaacson]

I know. I thought it was a double whammy for you.

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah. The bumper says Kmart kids race against drugs. There's a lot going on here. Why are they Kmart kids?

[Monica Isaacson]

Exactly.

[Dan Shepard]

How does one race drugs?

[Monica Isaacson]

Correct. How do you race?

[Dan Shepard]

You can race on drugs.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah. It was a race. It was a race where they were against drugs.

[Dan Shepard]

Do you know how old you were when the shirt was made?

[Monica Isaacson]

No.

[Dan Shepard]

You were 11 years old.

[Monica Isaacson]

Oh, wow.

[Dan Shepard]

You were just about to start racing against drugs.

[Monica Isaacson]

Oh, I had been racing. Racing. I've been racing since I was five against drugs.

[Dan Shepard]

And in 98, I was 23, I was on drugs.

[Monica Isaacson]

The kids weren't really doing it for you, though.

[Dan Shepard]

You know, they're racing me, but they couldn't keep up.

[Monica Isaacson]

No, they couldn't.

[Dan Shepard]

Oh, my God. This is great.

[Monica Isaacson]

I just. It's a Kmart shirt. You had to have. Yes.

[Dan Shepard]

Oh, I love it. I was just telling you that I watched a YouTube video on the history. It was. It wasn't like the history of Kmart. It was just this graph that changed, and it gave you the amount of Kmarts in different states, starting, I think, 63 or 8.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah.

[Dan Shepard]

And when it occurred to me, I had no idea, and I'm bummed about it.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah.

[Dan Shepard]

It started in Michigan, and there was so many more in Michigan all the way up until the 80s.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah.

[Dan Shepard]

We were, like, blowing the rest of the country away. Eventually it got passed by maybe California or a couple. But it stayed really high. And I was like, oh, yeah. I was. My opinion of Kmart's skewed by being.

[Monica Isaacson]

Born in Michigan blood.

[Dan Shepard]

I thought it was, like, as ubiquitous as Walmart.

[Monica Isaacson]

Right. We had a lot of them in Georgia, but maybe later.

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah, I think later.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah.

[Dan Shepard]

And. And. And in Michigan, they were more numerous than Walmart.

[Monica Isaacson]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's in your history and your lineage. But you told me that story. But I had already. I had your shirt already. Excited.

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Isaacson]

Um, okay. So Walter. So he mentioned a room where people gather that has a couch on the outside and cushions in the middle. It kind of sounds like a riddle, you know, it does, but I looked it up. It says, the room design you are describing is commonly known as a conversation pit or a sunken seating area.

[Dan Shepard]

I want one of those so bad.

[Monica Isaacson]

You did?

[Dan Shepard]

Yes. They're kind of making a comeback. I saw in some architectural magazine.

[Monica Isaacson]

Oh, wow.

[Dan Shepard]

But as a kid, Those were big in the 70s. And so when I was a kid, they kind of had gone out of vogue, but you could still bump into them. And I was like, I want a sunken in living room so bad.

[Monica Isaacson]

Oh, yeah. I don't really know about them.

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah. Like, just imagine the floor levels this and then it drops down another 2 and 12ft so that the couch hole area square is like. So your shoulders are like just above the floor line.

[Monica Isaacson]

Interesting.

[Dan Shepard]

Oh, I love it.

[Monica Isaacson]

Okay, well, that's what he's talking about.

[Dan Shepard]

It was on the back of TV Guide a lot.

[Monica Isaacson]

Oh, is it Bill Gates, sis? That's tricky. Mom named Mary? Yes, Mary Maxwell Gates.

[Dan Shepard]

Mary Maxwell Gates.

[Monica Isaacson]

I like that. Maxwell.

[Dan Shepard]

Did you have Max and Irma's down there in Georgia?

[Monica Isaacson]

Yes, we did.

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yes, we did. At Max and Irma's.

[Dan Shepard]

We were alive at the Bullseye of the franchise restaurant.

[Monica Isaacson]

No.

[Dan Shepard]

Like, there was no such thing as a Chili's in my youth. And then around my teenage years, all of a sudden, and it was the most exciting thing in the world.

[Monica Isaacson]

Listen, I was by a Chili's last week and I asked my mom, I was like, have you guys been to Chili's late? She's like, we went last week.

[Walter Isaacson]

Oh, great.

[Monica Isaacson]

I was like, yeah. And I kind of. I was like, I want to go.

[Dan Shepard]

It's fucking delicious.

[Monica Isaacson]

I know. I loved it.

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah.

[Monica Isaacson]

They used to have chicken tacos, but they took them off the menu.

[Dan Shepard]

They did, yeah. Oh, no.

[Monica Isaacson]

I know.

[Dan Shepard]

Yeah. Not caloric enough.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah, I guess not. Okay, well, so that is all of the facts.

[Dan Shepard]

That concludes the fact portion of the program.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah, he's too smart. What are we going to do?

[Dan Shepard]

Thank you for my Kmart shirt, Monica.

[Monica Isaacson]

You're welcome.

[Dan Shepard]

Thank you so much. It was fun to open up a box.

[Monica Isaacson]

It was a trick, cuz it was a big shirt in a small box. Yeah, I liked that.

[Dan Shepard]

That's a metaphor. Yeah. Big things come in very small packages.

[Monica Isaacson]

Yeah. Yeah, we got there.

[Dan Shepard]

All right. Love you, love. Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondry app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad free right now by joining Wondry plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short [e-mail] survey.