18 Strikes & You're Out!

Summary

Armstrong & Getty On Demand – Episode 18: "Strikes & You're Out!"

Release Date: May 16, 2025

In episode 18 of the "Armstrong & Getty On Demand" podcast, hosts Jack Armstrong and Joe Getty tackle two significant and timely issues: the recent Supreme Court oral arguments concerning birthright citizenship and nationwide injunctions, and the escalating problem of online scams on Meta's platforms. The episode offers insightful discussions, expert opinions, and real-world anecdotes that illuminate these complex topics for listeners.

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1. Supreme Court Oral Arguments: Birthright Citizenship and Nationwide Injunctions

A. Birthright Citizenship and the 14th Amendment

The episode begins with a deep dive into the Supreme Court's recent oral arguments regarding birthright citizenship as outlined in the 14th Amendment. The hosts explore the historical context and contemporary implications of this constitutional provision.

• Key Discussion Points:

  • Interpretation of "Subject to the Jurisdiction Thereof": The phrase from the 14th Amendment is scrutinized to determine whether it implies mere legal obedience or requires allegiance to the United States.
  • Legal Precedents and Challenges: The conversation touches upon the scant historical challenges to birthright citizenship and the potential ramifications of reinterpreting this long-standing principle.

• Notable Quote:

  "The first sentence of the 14th Amendment says all persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof are US Citizens."
  — Tim Sandifer [45:04]

B. Nationwide Injunctions by Federal Judges

Transitioning to the procedural aspects of the judiciary, Armstrong and Getty examine the surge in nationwide injunctions issued by individual federal judges, questioning the balance of judicial power in the American legal system.

• Key Discussion Points:

  • Legitimacy and Frequency: The hosts debate whether the increased use of nationwide injunctions is a necessary check on executive power or an overreach of judicial authority.
  • Implications for Federal Policies: The potential for single judges to halt significant federal actions raises concerns about consistency and the separation of powers.

• Notable Quotes:

  "Nationwide injunctions are perfectly fine. They're the ordinary way of doing business in the courts."
  — Tim Sandifer [35:16]

  "If you don't respect the Constitution, you don't love it, it cannot protect us."
  — Tim Sandifer [36:09]

C. Expert Insights with Tim Sandifer

Tim Sandifer, Vice President for Legal Affairs at the Goldwater Institute, joins the conversation to provide expert analysis on these judicial matters.

• Key Insights:

  • Restoration of Constitutional Respect: Sandifer emphasizes the need to uphold constitutional principles to maintain individual freedoms.
  • Challenges of Modern Governance: He highlights how contemporary political actions test the robustness of constitutional safeguards.

• Notable Quote:

  "We have to restore respect for the Constitution in this country."
  — Tim Sandifer [36:52]

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2. Meta's Battle with Online Scams

Shifting focus, the podcast delves into the persistent issue of scams on Meta’s platforms, such as Facebook and Instagram, highlighting the company's struggle to combat fraudulent activities effectively.

A. Surge in Online Scams

The hosts reference a Wall Street Journal report detailing Meta's challenges in curbing scams, which have intensified over the past six months.

• Key Discussion Points:

  • Types of Scams: From fake Apple Vision Pro headsets to stolen product listings, the variety and sophistication of scams have grown.
  • Impact on Consumers: Personal stories, like Armstrong's attempt to purchase a headset, illustrate the real-world consequences of these scams.

• Notable Quotes:

  "Newly active advertisers on the platform are promoting scams, illicit goods or low-quality products."
  — Jack Armstrong [08:18]

  "If enough people bail from the marketplace because they think there's too many fraudsters, then you get nothing."
  — Jack Armstrong [15:11]

B. Meta's Response and Regulatory Findings

The conversation critiques Meta's response to the scam epidemic, pointing out internal documents and external regulatory findings that reveal the depth of the problem.

• Key Discussion Points:

  • Internal Inaction: Meta's reluctance to swiftly remove fraudulent advertisers despite clear evidence of wrongdoing.
  • Regulatory Scrutiny: British and Australian regulators have noted similar issues, indicating a global challenge for Meta.

• Notable Quotes:

  "Meta is reluctant to add impediments for ad buying clients who drove a 22% increase in advertising last year to over $160 billion."
  — Jack Armstrong [11:14]

  "They are run out of China, Sri Lanka, Vietnam and the Philippines."
  — Jack Armstrong [08:44]

C. The Human Cost of Scamming Operations

Sandifer adds depth to the discussion by highlighting the human toll of organized scamming operations, often involving forced labor under brutal conditions in Southeast Asia.

• Key Discussion Points:

  • Pig Butchering Groups: These operations involve coercing individuals into committing scams, often through extreme abuse.
  • Ethical Implications: The moral responsibility of tech companies in preventing such crimes.

• Notable Quote:

  "They have warehouses full of people who will be whipped, beaten, and tortured if they don't try to scam you."
  — Jack Armstrong [13:31]

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3. Cultural Reflections and Personal Anecdotes

Between the heavy discussions, Armstrong and Getty weave in personal stories and cultural observations, making the episode relatable and engaging.

• Personal Experience:

  • Armstrong shares his own experience with Facebook Marketplace, highlighting the ease with which scams can proliferate on large-scale platforms.

• Media Bias and Information Consumption:

  • The hosts reflect on changing media landscapes, discussing recommendations for unbiased news sources and the challenges of finding factual reporting amidst sensationalism.

• Notable Quotes:

  "If you grew up in a family that had lots of drama and then you go and hang out with some family that has zero drama, maybe it seems like uncomfortably boring to you."
  — Jack Armstrong [22:58]

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4. Key Takeaways and Conclusions

• Judicial Power and Constitutional Safeguards: The episode underscores the delicate balance between judicial oversight and executive actions, advocating for the preservation of constitutional protections against potential governmental overreach.

• Tech Platforms and Ethical Responsibility: Meta’s struggle with online scams serves as a case study in the broader responsibility of tech companies to protect their users from fraudulent activities and the ethical implications of their inaction.

• Importance of Constitutional Literacy: Through the discussions on the 14th Amendment, the hosts highlight the need for greater public understanding of constitutional principles to foster a more informed citizenry.

• Call to Action for Listeners: Armstrong and Getty encourage listeners to stay informed about legal debates and advocate for accountability in both the judiciary and tech industries to uphold individual rights and consumer safety.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Tim Sandifer on Nationwide Injunctions:
  "Nationwide injunctions are perfectly fine. They're the ordinary way of doing business in the courts."
  — [35:16]

• Jack Armstrong on Meta Scams:
  "Newly active advertisers on the platform are promoting scams, illicit goods or low-quality products."
  — [08:18]

• Tim Sandifer on Constitutional Respect:
  "We have to restore respect for the Constitution in this country."
  — [36:09]

• Jack Armstrong on User Trust:
  "If enough people bail from the marketplace because they think there's too many fraudsters, then you get nothing."
  — [15:11]

---

Final Thoughts

Episode 18 of "Armstrong & Getty On Demand" masterfully combines legal analysis with real-world implications, offering listeners a comprehensive understanding of both judicial power dynamics and the pervasive issue of online scams. Through engaging dialogue and expert insights, the hosts provide a balanced and informative perspective on topics that significantly impact society and individual rights.

---

Transcript

[Jack Armstrong]

You're listening to an iHeart podcast.

[Joe Getty]

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[Joe Getty]

Broadcasting live from the Abraham Lincoln Radio studio at the George Washington Broadcast Center. Jack Armstrong and Joe Getty.

[Jack Armstrong]

Armstrong and Getty. And now here's Armstrong and G.

[Joe Getty]

Speaking.

[Jack Armstrong]

Of the Pope, the trading card company.

Topps said that Pope Leo's new card.

[Joe Getty]

Just became their best selling non sports.

[Jack Armstrong]

Trading card of all time.

My guess is if you collect Pope trading cards, you're probably more celibate than the Pope.

[Tim Sandifer]

That's it.

[Jack Armstrong]

I'm just saying. Oh boy.

Ouch.

I see his point.

No kidding.

Talking to Tim Sandifer this hour of the Goldwater Institute about the recent Supreme Court oral arguments about ostensibly the birthright citizenship question, the 14th Amendment. But what most of the hearing was about was can a single federal judge issue a nationwide injunction and stop an administration from executing its policy for a significant amount of time? What are the reasons why that's a good idea and what are the reasons why it's a bad idea? And we'll, we'll discuss that.

Yeah.

Looking forward to it. Will be a little cerebral so you know, get yourself in the right mood. Bring your brain.

Well, it's, it sure is tiring to every time the a president does something then you get alerts on your phone. A judge in Minneapolis has said no, Joe Biden can't do that. And then another judge somewhere else says yes, he can. It's back on. And you know, the back and forth.

Right? Yeah, exactly. It's an interesting challenge because that sort of thing has been skyrocketing in recent Years, they it was practically unknown for the first 150 years of our country. And then there. It happened once or twice here and there every decade and a half and now it's like every three weeks. So anyway, more on that to come headline today. Of more immediate concern I think to most folks is from the Wall Street Journal tech department. Meta battles an epidemic of scams as criminals flood Instagram and Facebook. And this is by the standards of like six months ago. It's a flood compared to that. Fake puppies and phony offers of mouth watering bargains are often ceded by overseas crime networks. Employees see that say the company is reluctant to impede its advertising juggernaut.

Ah, so I did start to get into Facebook Marketplace because somebody told me I mentioned I was using craigsl for something. They said Craigslist. Nobody uses Craigslist anymore. Everything's on Facebook Marketplace. I thought, okay, I'm probably behind the times, but particularly I was looking for coincidentally an Apple Vision Pro headset. And there were so many so cheap and I was just, it was like, you know, deals too good to be true. And then I started doing a little researching and there's lots of fake Apple products out there. And then, so then I just don't know how much of the marketplace thing is phony and I just kind of bailed on the whole deal, but. Wow.

Yeah. Yeah. They open with a guy who runs a, like a wholesale home improvement supplies garden equipment in bulk out of a suburban Atlanta warehouse. And bunches of people have been ripped off thinking they're buying from him. And when the products never arrive, they all call him to complain. He has to tell them the bad news. They've been swindled.

Oh, that sucks.

Yeah. What sucks, he says, is we have to break it to be Laban scammed. We don't even do online sales. We keep reporting these pages to Meta, but nothing ever happens. Meta platforms, the or companies. Yes.

Or Meta is trying and they can't go as fast as the people keep putting them back up. You can probably have an AI bot that puts them up faster than they could be taken down.

That's possible, although that's not what the article suggests.

Okay.

Meta platforms is increasingly a cornerstone of the Internet fraud economy. According to regulators, banks and internal documents reviewed by the Journal, the company accounted for nearly half of all reported scams on Zelle, its payment service you might use. The peer to peer payment platform is owned by several banking giants, including J.P. morgan and Wells Fargo. Other banks that offer Zell have experienced similarly high fraud claims originating On Meta, British and Australian regulators have found similar levels of fraud originating on Meta's platforms. Internal analysis from 2022 described in company documents, likewise found that 70% of newly active advertisers on the platform are promoting scams, illicit goods or low quality products.

Yeah, it's interesting because Craigslist was huge for a long time, destroyed newspapers across the country. We all went to Craigslist and I'm sure there were plenty of scams on Craigslist, but I didn't, I wasn't never. I used Craigslist a lot, never came up against a scam. But on the Facebook marketplace, it seems to be all over the place. I wonder what the difference is. Just the Internet era that we're in now is different.

Yes, and I think the. The criminal enterprises have caught up to the opportunities. But again, going back two and a half years, seven out of ten of newly active advertisers are scammers of some sort or another. Account information for the scam pages from the guy in Atlanta we talked about show they are run out of China, Sri Lanka, Vietnam and the Philippines. But they use stolen pictures of the warehouse and list its address with more than 3 billion daily users on Meta's platforms. Holy cow.

So those are advertisers, which is different than, like, I just keep focusing on Facebook Marketplace. Right, Advertisers. Well, like, go, go on your Facebook Marketplace, tap in Apple, watch near you and try to figure out which of those ads are real, which aren't. A whole bunch of them have to be fake. Like a lot of them.

Okay, well, 70%, perhaps, but anyway, with more than 3 billion daily users on Meta's platforms, fraud is hardly a new phenomenon for the company. But fed by the rise of cryptocurrencies, generative AI, and vast overseas crime networks based out of Southeast Asia, the immensity of Meta's scam problem is growing and has been regularly flagged by employees over the last several years. But here's where you get into the Are they really trying hard? As Jack, who's plainly under the pay of Mark Zuckerberg, tried to claim, I wish I could.

Hey, Mark. I could be.

Yeah, Mark, reach out. I'm getting to our DMs or whatever you do on Facebook. I'm not on it, but anyway. Current and former employees say Meta is reluctant to add impediments for ad buying clients who drove a 22% increase in advertising last year to over $160 billion, even after users demonstrate a history of scamming. If the checks keep Coming Meta box and removing them.

That's unbelievable. Our whole lives of, you know, if you're anywhere near our age, you grew up with radio and tv. Every single ad you heard minus like three were legit. In your whole life, I mean, just, you didn't have endless scam advertisers on radio and TV all day long.

Right, Right.

There was some sort of gatekeeper involved.

There's the occasional buyer beware question of quality or value or whatever, but not.

Just a flat out right.

You give them your money and never get anything back. Yeah, right. So here's, here's the really damning part of this. Current and former employees say Meta's reluctant to add impediments, Et cetera, et cetera. One late last year document reviewed by the Wall Street Journal shows that the company will allow advertisers to accrue between eight and automated strikes for financial fraud before it bans their accounts. That's between 8 and 32. In instances where a Meta employee personally escalates the problem, the limit can drop to between four and 16.

The correct number is one.

Yeah.

Or zero, depending on how you look at it. You know, one strike and you're out. That's crazy.

And Marketplace is a big part of the problem because that is advertising. But a Meta spokesman says the company's working to address the epidemic of scams that has grown in scale and complexity in recent years, driven by cross border criminal networks.

And I hate to come off as racist or something here, but I would look at, again, looking at Apple Vision Pro headsets, they cost like $3,000 new, and I was seeing them on there sometimes as low as like 800, 900, and it would be attached to some Middle Eastern name. Now that doesn't automatically make it a scam, I know that, but it seemed like all the really low priced ones without a box were some foreign name.

Yeah.

And so I don't know.

And then the other end of this and then we can move on. But, and we talked about this, I think a couple of weeks ago. The report estimated organized scamming operations, often called pig butchering groups, comprise hundreds of thousands of people. Many of the scammers trafficked after falling for fraudulent social media employment ads, themselves kept in prison like compounds, the workers are forced to work under threat of extreme forms of torture and abuse.

In the United States?

No, in Southeast Asia.

In Southeast Asia? I. Yeah, I couldn't tell. That just originated there and they were getting to people there. Okay, so getting.

That's where the. Gotcha. Yeah, they have Warehouses full of people who will be whipped, beaten and tortured if they don't try to scam you, you know, 18 hours a day.

Wow.

And then this law enforcement gal who's looking into this says the growth of this nightmarish industry stems directly from the inaction of Meta and to lesser extent, its social media peers.

Well, all I need to hear is you have an 18 strikes in your out policy. I mean, what the hell is that?

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Beyond buyer beware. I'm not sure I'd even want to. To wade into that.

Like I said, I bailed. I was really interested in buying an Apple product and finally just decided it's too big a mess for me to deal with.

I.

Forget it.

Hey, here's one more example I can't resist because peer to peer sales or trade of live animals are banned on Meta outside of narrow contexts.

Here to peer. So if another talk show host wanted to buy a goat from me.

No. Just like another user. Okay, another Facebooker. But a recent search for puppies yielded thousands of ads, most stating no affiliation with a known dog breeder or rescue organization as met as rules require. Other red flags abounded. Many of the results displayed common hallmarks of scams, including stolen photos of specific pets and ads from sellers supposedly near me who are actually operating out of Cameroon, checking locations. I am not in Cameroon.

I'm going to see. I'm going to see the Cameroon puppies tonight.

They're good, but so loud. Bring earplugs. So, you know, Facebook has these. And Instagram, the Meta, you know, outlets have these alleged rules, but they have zero interest or practically no interest in enforcing them.

Zuckerberg, come on. You're smart, dude. That's some short term thinking. If enough people like me bail from the marketplace because they think there's too many fraudsters, then you get nothing. It's like the Laffer tax curve. I mean, if everybody decides it's full of frauds, you're not going to make more money. You're going to make zero money.

Oh. Oh, I'm. I'm channeling Mark Zuckerberg. I am gifted in the psychic arts. He's speaking to me. Speaking through me. Jack, I'm already a billionaire. Shut up. Oh, Mark Zuckerberg waiting in there.

Or more likely, he's just trying to keep these quarterly numbers up. I'll worry about the next quarter. Next quarter?

Scammers, checks, they. They cash, baby. That's what he's thinking.

Wow, that. I wonder what we'll go to if Mark if back to Craigslist or back to classifieds in your local newspaper.

Tradio. Saturday mornings I got a set of snow tires I'm willing to trade for a lifeboat or something similar. A number is 555-12-12.

Tim sand for this hour to talk about the supreme from yesterday, among other things.

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[Tim Sandifer]

So you want to start a business? You might think you need a team of people and fancy tech skills. But listen to me when I say you don't. You just need GoDaddy arrow. I'm Walton Goggins, an actor and I like the sound of starting my own business. Walton Goggins Goggle Glasses. But I couldn't do this my own. GoDaddy Arrow uses AI to create everything you need to grow a business. It'll make you a unique logo, it'll create a custom website, it'll write social posts for you, and even set you up with a social media calendar. How cool is that? Well, listen to this. For a limited time, you can get Arrow all access for just a dollar a week for 12 weeks. We're talking all the AI power of GoDaddy arrow plus a domain E commerce store, payments, professional email, a unified inbox. All for less money than I spend on deep tanning lotion while sunbathing off the Amalfi Coast. You know what? That sounds like a plan. Get [e-mail] terms apply.

[Jack Armstrong]

Passenger recently shared a video of roaches in the cabin of a Spirit Airlines flight. Wow, they really can survive anything. That's a twist. That's a good punchline. I like that.

Supreme Court arguments yesterday about whether or not all these federal judges across the country can say no to presidents and their executive orders. And we'll discuss that with Tim Sandifer coming up. It's a pretty interesting topic. This is also an interesting topic. Trying to find unbiased or the least biased news out there. This was sent to me from ping pong Olympics broadcaster Jim Kosamor of among other things that he's done in his life. He's a big fan of News Nation and he's been trying to get me to watch News Nation for. He was the first person ever turned me on to fox news like 25 years ago. He said fair and balanced, you gotta watch it. So I started watching Fox after years of CNN and whatever and then he's been hammering News Nation for a while and he sent me this. This is this media bias chart from a company that does this for a living. And as I've been saying, I started watching News Nation a couple of weeks ago and it's, it's so, it's so weirdly non confrontational. It almost feels dry and like boring. And I have to keep reminding myself that confrontation isn't what you're looking for out of every news story. You're just trying to get the facts. And it's just, it's. We're also used to everything being presented in a shouty way from one side. Anyway, this company that looks at media bias, their top four slots were all News Nation programs throughout the day that had the least media bias. With number five being Brett Bear Special Report on Fox, which is another news show we all like around here. So I just say give it a look. It is, it is. It is weird if you're used to like a strong point of view and anger. We've all gotten so, so accustomed to it. It just, I don't know it. I guess it's like people who are addicted to drama. If you grew up in a family that had lots of drama and then you go and hang out with some family that has zero drama, maybe it seems like uncomfortably boring to you to where the family with no drama likes it that way.

Right? Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I once heard a couple of describing the fact that he came from a family that was very. I can't remember which was which and it doesn't matter. That was very English and hers was very Italian. And if you know anything about those cultures, that would be a tough thing to get used to.

Yeah. Either direction. I'm going to both the DMV and the doctor today. Back to back quick doctor's appointment and then to the DMV which will be more bureaucratic unfulfilling I'm sorry, you don't have the right form. It's going to be quite the contest.

Well, in which will just be generally more preferable. Being probed and jabbed with short sharp objects or being subjected to the special mental torture of the dmv.

Right. This is, this isn't the right form. I don't even know what to do at this point. Then that could happen with the insurance or at the dmv. Either one.

Well, that's true. Doctors offices have really upped their game, mostly unintentionally because now they have such compliance hurdles from the many thousands of laws and regulations they're becoming more and more dmv. Like in some ways I've been a.

Couple of times in the last few years, unfortunately where it's like emergency situation and man, they get that paperwork in front of you. Who's paying for this? Again, sorry, trying to talk over your screams. But, but who's paying for this? We need to make sure we know who's paying for this before we start in on any of these.

The DMV has got to come up with an excuse or two to like penetrate your body in one way or another if they're going to keep up with doctor's offices.

Always have to throw in the caveat. If you're like a working honest person who's going to follow the law? Now if I just said no, I'm here illegally from El Salvador, they just go ahead and treat me and write it off somehow and taxpayers would pick up the bill.

It's a good point. Yeah, yeah. We are paying for everyone.

[Tim Sandifer]

Yeah, sure.

[Jack Armstrong]

Congratulations. We thank you. Muchas gracias.

Tim Sandifer's joining us.

Yeah. The 14th amendment, birthright citizenship, nationwide injunctions by a single federal judge. What to make of all this coming up next. Stay with us.

[Joe Getty]

Armstrong and Getty. Get this. Adults with financial literacy skills have 82% more wealth than those who don't. From swimming lessons to piano classes. Us parents invest in so many things to enrich our kids lives. But are we investing in their future financial success? With Greenlight you can teach your kids financial literacy skills like earning, saving and investing. And this investment costs less than that. After school treat start prioritizing their financial education and future. Today with a risk free [e-mail] iheart greenlight.com iheart.com.

[Samsung Representative]

Since its invention, the TV has been just that, a TV. But what if it could be something more? Meet Samsung Vision AI. It makes your old favorites look picture perfect. With AI upscaling for optimal clarity watching the game with a bilingual crowd. Your TV can translate English broadcast subtitles to Spanish live. Or maybe you're watching Samsung TV and you're wondering who that actor is. Samsung Vision AI already knows and even recommends you more content to watch. With Samsung Vision AI you get more from your TV than you ever thought possible. It starts to make you question can you even call it a TV at all? Redefine what it means to watch TV with revolutionary AI powered experiences with Samsung Vision AI. Visit samsung.com to learn more. Vision AI features vary by model. Upscaling utilizes AI based formulas and results may vary based on source content. Translation accuracy not guaranteed. Click to searches on certain models only.

[Tim Sandifer]

So you want to start a business? You might think you need a team of people and fancy tech skills. But listen to me when I say you don't. You just need GoDaddy arrow. I'm Walton Goggins, an actor and I like the sound of starting my own business. Walton Goggins Goggle Glasses. But I couldn't do this my own. GoDaddy Arrow uses AI to create everything you need to grow a business. It'll make you a unique logo, it'll create a custom website, it'll write social posts for you and even set you up with a social media calendar. How cool is that? Well, listen to this. For a limited time you can get Arrow all access for just a dollar a week for 12 weeks. We're talking all the AI power of GoDaddy arrow plus a domain E commerce store, payments, professional email, a unified inbox. All for less money than I spend on deep tanning lotion while sunbathing off the Amalfi Coast. You know what? That sounds like a plan. Get [e-mail] terms apply at&t has a.

[AT&T Representative]

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[Joe Getty]

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[Jack Armstrong]

So we've been living this reality for a while now, and it's growing as a problem. A president decides to do something with an executive order or whatever, often that they promised on the campaign trail. Their voters get all excited, yay, they did it day one like they promised. And then, then I get an alert on my phone. Some judge somewhere I've never heard of has said, no, you can't do that. And then it stops. And everybody's like, groans like, oh, they can do that. And it keeps happening over and over again. And do we want that system to continue that way or not? Is part of what the Supreme Court was arguing about yesterday. And as one of the justices said, there are 600 some federal judges. And while I do not question their motives, sometimes there are. They are wrong. So do we want them to be able to hold up the whole country?

Let us discuss the very interesting and multifaceted oral arguments yesterday before the Supreme Court with Tim Sandifer, Vice President for Legal affairs at the Goldwater Institute. Among other auspicious titles. Author of eight books, including most recently Freedom's Furies, How Isabel Patterson, Rose Wilder and Ayn Rand Foundation, Liberty and Age of Darkness. I've recommended it many times. It's terrific. Tim, how are you, sir?

[J]

Just great. Thanks for having me back, guys.

[Jack Armstrong]

Published poet. Gotta throw that in there.

True. Yes. A polymath, as they say. Anyway, Tim, so ostensibly everybody's talking about that we are gonna discuss birthright citizenship in front of the Supreme Court. And that did come up. But would you agree that the more significant discussion was about nationwide injunctions by individual federal Judges?

[J]

Oh, yes, absolutely. That was the focus of the argument, and it was a very interesting argument, but I don't think that it's a hard question. I think the answer is, obviously nationwide injunctions are perfectly fine. They're the ordinary way of doing business in the courts. And people who complain about them either don't understand the system or are trying to get away with something illegal.

[Jack Armstrong]

Yeah, I don't, I don't always like that it happened, but I can't see what the alternative would be, as somebody pointed out. So you're going to let. I guess it was you that pointed it out yesterday in Twitter. The idea that. So every time a president does something, it's got to work its way all the way through the courts up to the Supreme Court. And then a decision by the Supreme Court before the Supreme Court might say sometimes nine, nothing. You can't do that.

Oh, wait a minute.

[J]

And during that whole period of time, the government is still doing the illegal thing, Right?

[Jack Armstrong]

Right.

Well, so clearly it's 2 to 1 for a judicial takeover of the government. But I will stand up for liberty. Is there middle ground? It's gotta be three judge panel and not a single yahoo in rural Tennessee.

[J]

Yeah, I think having a single yahoo in rural Tennessee is perfectly fine because that's what the appellate process is for. That's why you appeal cases. And by the way, that's why you should avoid appointing yahoos to the federal bench. Might mention that too. The argument against nationwide injunctions always seems to boil down to, well, this is a democracy and the majority should always get what it wants. And the answer to that is no. What happened to all of my friends who used to say, this is a republic, not a democracy? The whole point of our system is that the majority has to act lawfully. And if it acts unlawfully, I can go in front of a judge and get that, get an order from that judge prohibiting the government from violating my rights. And the idea that this, that we should do this piecemeal, that only a judge down here, that his order only applies there, meanwhile the government can do illegal things to everybody else in the country until the case reaches the US Supreme Court makes no sense at all.

[Jack Armstrong]

The underlying theme here being, folks, that what we really need to fear is the power of the government in this country. That's kind of the idea of forming it. So the. There's no question that these nationwide injunctions were relatively or practically completely unknown for 150 years. Then there were a handful of them, and the number of them is now skyrocketing every day.

It seems like on my phone I see a judge jumped in somewhere actually.

Right.

[J]

I actually don't think that that's true. I think that what happened was we just started calling them by a different name. There were an injunctions against unconstitutional government action since before there was a Constitution. One of the points that was brought up during the arguments was that British judges used to do this before the American Revolution, and that was considered perfectly legitimate. It's just that nowadays we call them nationwide injunctions or we have some judges who write sloppily and don't explain what they're actually saying or something. Okay, that's a problem, I suppose. But the idea that you should limit the injunction power of federal courts is what that is, is that's open door to the majority violating individual rights on a scale that, I mean, they already do it. But you can imagine what it would be if we took away one of the most important protections for individual rights in this country, which is getting an injunction from a federal court to protect your freedom. That's insane.

[Jack Armstrong]

So I didn't want to get to this part too fast because you're a lawyer and this part can't be fixed with the law. It seems to me that we've got a. A cultural problem in that presidents are way more likely than they used to be to want to challenge the Supreme Court either to, like, legitimately they don't think the law is correct, or they don't care if they're wrong. They just want to get the political credit for trying. And perhaps I don't know this, but it seems like a likely response. The 600 some federal judges out there, there's a lot more of them who are willing to let their politics get ahead of their judge reasoning and jump in and stop somebody they hate.

[J]

Yes, you're absolutely right about that. And especially the thing about the president and Congress being willing to do things that they know are unconstitutional because they know that the judges are going to strike it down and they can blame the judges and say, oh, those evil activist judges. Or they can get away with their unconstitutional things. So it's win win if you want to do something unconstitutional. And honestly, every president's done this to some degree. Obviously Franklin Roosevelt did this a lot. But the one that always sticks in my memory is George W. Bush when he signed the McCain Feingold campaign finance law and said when he signed it that he thought it was unconstitutional, but that he would leave it to the courts to deal with. Well, I'm sorry, but if you're the president. You take an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States. And if you ignore that oath and sign something that you know is unconstitutional just because you think the courts will clean up your mess for you, I think that's disgraceful.

[Jack Armstrong]

Yeah. Well, a lot of the pieces I've read that have been following the growth of this use that as kind of like the patient zero because he said it out loud and then other presidents thought, hey, I can do that. I just won't say it out loud. And Obama did it and Biden did it and Trump did it in whichever order, and then Trump again and. And it's how. So how do we fix this?

[J]

Well, there's a long answer and a short answer. The short answer is elect good presidents. The long answer is that we have to restore respect for the Constitution in this country. I think it's the long term damage that's been done to Americans. Understanding and appreciation of the Constitution is horrifying. We have prominent law professors. There was a law professor at Georgetown Law School a few years ago published an article in the Washington Post saying the Constitution is obsolete. I don't respect it at all. Well, you're a teacher of constitutional law, for crying out loud. And if we don't respect the Constitution, we don't love it, it cannot protect us. The Constitution is just a promise. And if we don't honor that promise, then it's not worth the paper it's written on.

[Jack Armstrong]

We should have written a law specifically putting him in jail, in my opinion. Tim Sandifer is online from the Goldwater Institute. Little constitutional humor.

Exactly.

Designed for punish one man. That's a good idea. Yeah, let's do it. So, you know, blah, blah, blah, disclaimer about it's difficult to read the tea leaves of the oral arguments, blah, blah, blah. Did it strike you that the justices, the sane ones that we like, were leaning in any particular direction as to the nationwide injunctions, judges, et cetera, that we've been discussing, Some of the judges.

[J]

Have made clear for a long time that they're against these, what they call nationwide injunctions. Justice Thomas in particular, some of the others are a little harder to read. Justice Barrett, for example, and Justice Roberts, who have become really the swing judges on this issue, I thought the most interesting judge, if you want to, if anybody wants to go and listen to the argument online, I thought Justice Jackson was the one who was the most interesting. She clearly understands how this area of the law works and she rightly says there's no there there. Nationwide Injunctions are perfectly legitimate. They always have been, and there's no problem. So she'd be the one that I find most interesting. But how to predict. I think you're gonna get. I think Justice Roberts and Justice Barrett are gonna side with the liberals and say we don't have a problem per se with nationwide injunctions, but maybe some of them aren't very good, but as a blanket matter, they're okay. And then they're going to want to hear the underlying case about birthright citizenship, which obviously is a huge deal.

[Jack Armstrong]

That sounds about right to me.

Is it even worth getting into what happened on that topic yesterday, or do you think it's.

[J]

Well, they really just talk about whether or not they have a legitimate case in the first place, and they haven't really briefed it or argued it yet. But that's important because in order to get an injunction, you kind of have to first show that you have even an arguable point to make. And that was what they were arguing about. And I will say, I know this is talk radio and we're all supposed to think that we clearly have the right answer on everything. I think the birthright citizenship question is a very hard question. I don't think it's an easy question on either side.

[Jack Armstrong]

Let's talk about that when we come back from the break. I want to hear. I want to hear the arguments on both sides of that. That's interesting. And clearly you've probably seen the breakdown of who speaks the most words. The chicks talk too much. Is that a given?

[J]

Well, Justice Sotomayor does love cutting off lawyers and not letting them answer her questions.

[Jack Armstrong]

Yeah, the chicks talk too much. I think that's in.

The new gal talks more than anybody. That shouldn't happen in any organization. All right, more with Tim Sandifer in just a moment or two. But first word from our friends at prize picks. The best place to get in on the action is the basketball playoffs. Build in intensity. Whether it's points, rebounds or assists, she's more or less on two to six player projections for your shot to win up to 2,000 times your cage.

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Tim's gonna stick around and I got this question for him. When we come back. He can think on should the media attach to every judge what president appointed him? Does that help us or hurt us? I love that one. On the way.

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[Tim Sandifer]

So you want to start a business? You might think you need a team of people and fancy tech skills. But listen to me when I say you don't. You just need GoDaddy arrow. I'm Walton Goggins, an actor and I like the sound of starting my own business. Walton Goggins Goggle Glasses. But I couldn't do this my own. GoDaddy Arrow uses AI to create everything you need to grow a business. It'll make you a unique logo, it'll create a custom website, it'll write social posts for you, and even set you up with a social media calendar. How cool is that? Well, listen to this. For a limited time, you can get Aero all access for just a dollar a week for 12 weeks. We're talking all the AI power of GoDaddy arrow plus a domain E commerce store, payments, professional email, a unified inbox, all for less money than I spend on deep tanning lotion while sunbathing off the Amalfi coast. You know what? That sounds like a plan. Get [e-mail] terms apply.

[Joe Getty]

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[AT&T Representative]

Guarantee because most things in life are not guaranteed. Like actually getting the rental car you requested or your wedding turning out just like you dreamed it would and someone making another pot of coffee in the breakroom after drinking the last drop of the last. Yeah, don't get me started. Not guaranteed. In a world where Nothing is guaranteed, AT&T is bringing something new to the table, AT&T is introducing a guarantee with connectivity you depend on, deals you want and service you deserve or they'll make it right. So if you want to know more about the AT&T guarantee, head to att.com guarantee AT&T connecting changes everything. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.comguarantee for details.

[Jack Armstrong]

Hey, we're Armstrong and Getty and I don't know if you know about Shopify. You do actually. If you've ever used our store like Armstrong and Getty T shirts and stuff like that, that's because of Shopify that we have that website. They're the platform so we can just concentrate on the funny T shirt.

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I've always thought it's obvious that now it was designed for slaves and you shouldn't be able to be like a Chinese, a rich Chinese family that comes United States, has your baby in San Francisco and then gets all the benefits of being a US Citizen forever. But, but a lot of really smart people I like think there's a good reason for that. So I'm looking forward to hearing that.

Discussing the oral arguments before the Supreme Court yesterday with Tim Sandifer, Vice President for Legal affairs at the Goldwater Institute. It was advertised as a birthright scissors, citizenship. Hearing it or discussion? It really was much more a discussion of individual federal judges and nationwide injunctions and that sort of thing. But to the question, question of the 14th amendment, Tim, you said before the break that it's not an easy call. I'm glad to hear you agree. I've thought the same thing. What should we know about the 14th amendment to even come to a semi intelligent opinion on this?

[J]

Well, the first sentence of the 14th Amendment says all persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof are US Citizens. And all of this case, all of these arguments turn on that phrase subject to the jurisdiction thereof. What does that mean? Phrase mean? It's really tough because the word jurisdiction is one of those words that can mean all sorts of different things. It basically means power, but there's all sorts of different kinds of power. And so that's what the argument turns on. Does it? Some people think that it means you have to follow the law. If you're born here and you have to follow the law, then you're subject to the jurisdiction thereof and then that means you're a citizen. But that doesn't really make a lot of sense because even foreign tourists who come here for a vacation have to follow the law. I mean, they have to stop at red lights and they can't steal things. So. So that can't be what that means. Right. Instead, the other side argues jurisdiction thereof means some kind of loyalty or allegiance, that there's citizenship jurisdiction as opposed to follow the law jurisdiction. And that difference, you can see that difference, for example, in this. If you're a foreign spy and you sneak into the country and you spy for some foreign country and you get arrested, you can be prosecuted for espionage, but you cannot be prosecuted for treason.

[Jack Armstrong]

Why?

[J]

Because you're not a US citizen and you don't owe loyalty to the US So you cannot commit treason against the US and so there's two different kinds of jurisdiction is the argument. And so Those who are against birthright citizenship, say subject to the jurisdiction thereof, means that your parents owed loyalty to the United States as opposed to some foreign country. And that would mean that illegal aliens, if they have a child here, that child is not a citizen of the United States. Now, that's also. There's a problem with that. There's a couple problems with that. One of the problems with that argument is that nobody has ever said that that's what it means. In the 150 years since this has been in the Constitution, everybody has acted like, if you're born here, you're a citizen all of that time. And so suddenly discovering that it turns out that we've been misreading the Constitution for 150 years would be a huge, enormously radical transformation in how our system works. That would cause tremendous disruption nationwide, and that would be a real problem. But all of this. The real problem here in answering this question is that when the amendment was adopted, there were no such things as illegal aliens because there were no laws against immigration. And that means that if you're an originalist and you think the Constitution should be understood the way it was originally intended, the framers didn't ever think about this because it wasn't against the law back then. So we don't know what they would have thought about this question.

[Jack Armstrong]

Right, Right. Well, at the point that this enormously radical, disruptive president is overturned, that's when you tag me in, Tim, and I come in and explain to the good folks that, look, the nature of global transportation, the movement of people or peoples from one place to another, has changed so vastly.

Joe's a living Constitution guy. You can hear it coming out of it.

What? No. Oh, don't you dare know that. The very nature of comings and goings from countries has been so radically transformed, a Chinese national with not the slightest notion of making life in the United States can. Can depart China, arrive here, give birth, go back to China, all in the span of 72 hours. I'm inducing labor in this case, probably, or getting very lucky, and that child had citizenship. That's eventuality unimaginable back in the day, as the kids say.

[J]

I think that's sort of true. But on the other hand, the Chinese question came up back then because there were so many Chinese in California in the 1860s. And senators were asked, well, isn't this gonna make the children of the Chinese immigrants who back then did not intend to stay in the United States, they intended to go back to China. The senators were asked, does this make their Kids, US Citizens. And the senator from California said yes, and then he was immediately thrown out of office. So what does that mean? And nobody knows what that means?

[Jack Armstrong]

A single case from 1898? Or is there more precedent?

[J]

Really, there really isn't. There's really just a handful of precedents. And no Supreme Court case has ever said that birthright citizenship is in the Constitution. There have been some that have kind of mentioned it or kind of assumed it, but none has said so outright.

[Jack Armstrong]

Right.

I am surprised. The polling shows that only about a third of Americans want to do away with the way we do it. Now. I'm surprised by that. I do want to get to this. This is a journalistic question, but I think it has an effect on people's respect for the law. It has come up recently. It has become a pattern that anytime the media mentions a judge, they mention what president appointed them. Do you think that's a good idea or not?

They didn't just barely got a minute.

[J]

I think it's fine. I think people should know where these. For instance, I think it would help a lot of judges, you know, a lot of Republican appointed judges have been ruling against the Trump administration. And I think it would be helpful for people to know that these questions are not things where it's all partisan. The law is not just partisan politics. It's something much more profound and much more important than that.

[Jack Armstrong]

Yeah, well, I agree, but it implies that judges. I don't know.

[J]

True.

[Jack Armstrong]

I didn't used to think about it ever. If a judge ruled. I just thought, well, that's interesting. Now it's all. Who appointed him? Oh, of course he said that.

[J]

That is true. That is a risk. But I think we should err on the side of informing people as opposed to keeping people in the dark. So I. That's why.

[Jack Armstrong]

Tim Sander for the Goldwater Institute on the line. Tim, final question. I've called for a monarchy. You in favor of it? Yes or no?

[J]

No. I'm against the monarchy. I'm for the Constitution.

[Jack Armstrong]

Joe, one more question. As a published poet, I was thinking about this yesterday. He won the Nobel Prize. Bob Dylan. Good poet or not?

[J]

Lousy poet. No. Read Robert Hayden or Richard Wilbur instead.

[Jack Armstrong]

How about Ringo Starr? Octopus's Garden, Tim, it's always great and enlightening. Thanks a million for the time. Let's talk again soon.

[J]

Thanks, guys.

[Jack Armstrong]

All right.

I was actually thinking about this. Listening to Dylan lyrics. Why do they stick in everybody's head so much? Why do people keep going back to them if it's just gobbledygook like a lot of real poets claim it can't be. It wouldn't lodge. It wouldn't. It wouldn't make the market made, would it? Well, right.

He was famously moody about his career and his music in his life's philosophy. I think some of his stuff is absolutely brilliant and I think some of it's gobbledygook.

Huh. Maybe. Maybe more on that another day. Or maybe not. We got plenty stuff to tell you. I hope you can stick around if you missed a segment. I thought that Tim thing was really, really good. And you want to listen to it again. Get the podcast Armstrong and Yeti on.

[Joe Getty]

Demand Armstrong and Getty.

[Walton Goggins]

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[Tim Sandifer]

So you want to start a business? You might think you need a team of people and fancy tech skills, but listen to me when I say you don't. You just need GoDaddy arrow. I'm Walton Goggins, an actor, and I like the sound of starting my own business. Walton Goggins Goggle Glasses. But I couldn't do this my own. GoDaddy Arrow uses AI to create everything you need to grow a business. It'll make you a unique logo, it'll create a custom website, it'll write social posts for you, and even set you up with a social media calendar. How cool is that? Well, listen to this. For a limited time, you can get Arrow all access for just a dollar a week for 12 weeks. We're talking all the AI power of GoDaddy arrow, plus a domain E commerce store, payments, professional email, a unified inbox. All for less money than I spend on deep tanning lotion while sunbathing off the Amalfi coast. You know what? That sounds like a plan. Get [e-mail] terms apply.

[Joe Getty]

Not everyone who handles your personal information is going to be as careful as you are. And it only takes one mistake to expose it to hackers and identity theft. Maybe that's why there's a new victim of identity theft every five seconds in the United States. Fortunately, there's Lifelock Lifelock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats to your identity. If your identity is stolen, a LifeLock US based restoration specialist will help solve identity theft issues on your behalf, guaranteed or your money back. Plus, all LifeLock plans are backed by the million dollar protection package, meaning Lifelock will reimburse you up to the limits of your plan if you lose money due to identity theft. You can't control how diligent others are with your personal information, but with Lifelock you can help protect it. Act now and save up to 40% your first year. Call 1-800-LIFELOCK and use promo code IHEARTRA or go to lifelock.com iheart for 40% off. Terms apply.

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[Walton Goggins]

You see a headline but don't have.

[Joe Getty]

Time to read the whole story. Or there's so much news you're not sure what is worth your time. I'm Colby Ekowitz, co host of Post Reports, the weekday afternoon podcast from the Washington Post. Post Reports brings you what's relevant and revealing breaking stories, politics, wellness, culture. Each episode goes beyond a headline for the context you need. Find Post Reports now wherever you're listening.

[Jack Armstrong]

You're listening to an iHeart podcast.