A Different Algorithm. Thane Rosenbaum Talks to A&G

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Armstrong & Getty On Demand

Episode: "A Different Algorithm. Thane Rosenbaum Talks to A&G"
Date: September 19, 2025
Host: Jack Armstrong (Armstrong & Getty Show)
Guest: Thane Rosenbaum, CBS News Legal Analyst

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the legal and political controversy surrounding TikTok’s operations in the United States, the implications of its Chinese ownership, concerns around user data and national security, and the powerful influence of its content algorithm. Jack Armstrong and guest Thane Rosenbaum explore the ongoing legislative back-and-forth, potential outcomes for TikTok, and broader issues of information control and First Amendment rights in the era of algorithm-driven media.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Legal Battle Over TikTok in the U.S. (03:08 – 06:05)

• Background & Timeline:

  • The current standoff is the "fourth attempt" by U.S. officials to force TikTok to either divest from Chinese parent company ByteDance or end U.S. operations.
  • Stemming from Biden-era legislation targeting "social media companies that mine data of Americans that come from putative enemies of ours" and concerns about direct or indirect control by the Chinese government.
  • The primary issue: ByteDance’s inseparable relationship with Chinese authorities and the reality that “it’s not as if they could refuse a request” from Beijing (Jack Armstrong, 03:47).

• Cross-Administration Action:

  • Trump also took executive action, extending deadlines, and cited TikTok's impact on his political reach, notably among younger audiences.

• Economic Impact:

  • Not just about cat videos: "There are in fact, small businesses all over the United States that depend on TikTok as their main marketing technique." (Jack Armstrong, 04:30)

• Possible Solution:

  • "A consortium of venture capital companies, private equity and tech companies, including Oracle" is reported to be organizing a U.S. takeover. Regulatory requirements would include "someone on the board of directors who has some American affiliation." (Jack Armstrong, 05:13)

2. Personal Perspectives on TikTok and Social Media (06:05 – 07:24)

• Neither Guest nor Host Use TikTok:

  • Both Armstrong and Rosenbaum admit they don’t have TikTok, with Rosenbaum joking about being out of touch with the tech.

    “Do you not have TikTok because you're worried it's a Chinese data harvesting tool?”
    “No, not really. … I'm just not interested in social media.”
    (Thane Rosenbaum & Jack Armstrong, 06:33–06:43)

• Generational Divide:

  • The only reason Rosenbaum started using Instagram was to promote the show. Both are baffled by statistics about youth usage, e.g., "five hours for this group or seven hours for that group...I don't even know how that's possible." (Thane Rosenbaum, 06:57)

3. Algorithm as National Security Threat (07:24 – 09:15)

• Beyond Entertainment – News & Information:

  • The TikTok threat is not limited to entertainment; its algorithmic newsfeed is “tailormade for certain age groups, sensibilities, perspectives, where they live...that’s really what national security means,” gathering data and potentially shaping beliefs (Jack Armstrong, 07:52–08:28).
  • Algorithmic manipulation enables both injection and suppression of information:

    “Make sure that Jack Armstrong never sees a story about this ... He cannot see a story about this because he's… the kind of guy that will... talk about it on a show.” (Jack Armstrong, 08:32–08:44)

• Regulatory and First Amendment Complications:

  • If TikTok becomes an American company, government regulation is limited: “We have First Amendment rights. We're essentially like a newspaper. You can't tell us what to publish or what not to publish.” (Jack Armstrong, 08:55)

4. The Algorithm Question: Different or the Same? (09:15 – 11:09)

• Deal Terms Unclear:

  • Conflicting reports:

    “CNBC reported ... for the deal to happen, it was going to have to be a different algorithm. Then … The Wall Street Journal reported ... it was going to be the same algorithm. Well, that's a pretty big difference.” (Thane Rosenbaum, 09:15)

• Algorithm is Core to TikTok's Success:

  “From what I understand from people who love TikTok, it's all about that amazing algorithm that can pretty [much] predict what you want to be entertained by.” (Thane Rosenbaum, 09:37)

• Is the Algorithm Still Unique?

  • Armstrong notes the growing belief that TikTok's algorithm is no longer impenetrable—"people can actually duplicate it themselves."
  • Raises the question of media regulation and balance, referencing the now-defunct Fairness Doctrine:

    “Now it's clear the politics is on your sleeve... We tell you up front and we protect you from differing opinions.” (Jack Armstrong, 10:46)

5. Attitudes Toward AI & Literature (11:09 – 11:54)

• Chatbots:

  • Rosenbaum teases about using ChatGPT and other AI tools, to which Armstrong admits, "Not yet… I'm a writer and a novelist and that stuff scares me." (Jack Armstrong, 11:19–11:28)

• Impressing Each Other:

  • Rosenbaum earns literary points mentioning he's reading Ulysses:

    “You really impressed the hell out of me, Jack. ... James Joyce is something you're reading.”
    (Jack Armstrong, 11:40)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On TikTok's relationship with the Chinese government:

  “It’s not as if they could refuse a request. Right. You know, it's like the Chinese government is like the Godfather. ... If they had asked for something, they would have said yes.”
  — Jack Armstrong (03:54)

• On TikTok’s real threat:

  “It's even worse than that... if they were just watching videos of people dancing with their cats, that would be one thing... What we're really learning... is that most young people get their news from TikTok.”
  — Jack Armstrong (07:24)

• On algorithmic manipulation:

  “Algorithms that can easily be manipulated are tailor making a newsfeed... So that's really what national security means... how easy it is to manipulate us. Just give us a video or shade news stories a certain direction that’s in your favor.”
  — Jack Armstrong (07:52–08:28)

• On differences in proposed TikTok deal:

  “If it's a different algorithm, ... you can call it TikTok, but it's not the same thing.”
  — Thane Rosenbaum (09:20)

• On news media then and now:

  “When I was a kid and Walter Cronkite was the anchor for CBS News... no one knew if he was a Democrat or Republican, you had no way of knowing. That was a different time. Now... We tell you up front and we protect you from differing opinions.”
  — Jack Armstrong (10:41–10:46)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:08 – TikTok's legal/political context, cross-administration conflict
• 04:30 – TikTok as a lifeline for small businesses
• 06:05 – Personal views: Neither host nor guest uses TikTok or social media much
• 07:24 – The deeper threat: TikTok as a news source for the young
• 08:28 – Algorithmic newsfeed manipulation and national security implications
• 09:15 – Will the U.S. version use a different algorithm?
• 10:15 – Reference to Fairness Doctrine & decline of media balance
• 11:09 – Chatbots and literary credibility banter

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Tone & Style

Lively, conversational, with a mix of humor and concern. Armstrong and Rosenbaum balance technical/legal explanations with relatable anecdotes and self-deprecation, making the conversation accessible but thoughtful.

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Summary

This episode presents a nuanced look at the TikTok controversy, illustrating its complexity beyond politics into the realms of security, commerce, technology, and free expression. Armstrong and Rosenbaum explore not only the legal maneuvering over TikTok’s fate but also the algorithmic core driving both its popularity and controversy. Engaged, skeptical, and witty, the duo leave listeners with an understanding of why the TikTok debate matters—far beyond lip-syncing teens, and into the heart of how Americans form their views in the digital era.

Transcript

[Jack Armstrong]

This is an iHeart podcast.

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[Thane Rosenbaum]

Welcome Thane Rosenbaum to The show now. CBS News legal analyst. So what is going on with TikTok? Is it going to exist in the United States and is it going to be the same algorithm?

[Jack Armstrong]

So jacket, we won't know for another 90 days. This is now the fourth attempt to stave off forcing TikTok to end operations in the United States. Remember, this started with legislation during the Biden administration that essentially had a, you know, we're not interested in social media companies that mine data of Americans that come from putative enemies of ours and that there was no sufficient insulation or Chinese wall, so to speak, between the Chinese government and TikTok.

[Thane Rosenbaum]

That's a reasonable stance, in my opinion.

[Jack Armstrong]

Yeah, yeah. And the TikTok, we're not really owned by Chinese. Come on. And so there became a fight about that when in fact, bytedance did have relationships with the Chinese government. And it's, it's not as if they could refuse a request. Right. You know, it's like the Chinese government is like the Godfather. You don't request. If they had asked for something, they would have said yes. So the Biden administration said, look, you either sell yourself to an independent corporation or you shut down your operation in the United States. You want to do whatever you do in Europe, that's fine, but not here. Donald Trump said, well, wait a minute, I think I won this election in part because of TikTok.

[Thane Rosenbaum]

Probably true.

[Jack Armstrong]

It rallied an audience that I didn't really even have the last time. And everyone seems to have it. And there were an enormous amount of. It's not just, apparently, I wouldn't know this Jack, but apparently it's not just images of people dancing with their cats. There are in fact, small businesses all over the United States that depend on TikTok as their main marketing technique. So there was a movement among American businesses that said, well, wait a minute, we're a small business. This is how we could be. We need TikTok. So Donald Trump signed a series of executive orders, just one the other day, that extended the time period for either shutting down or selling. And he claims that he knows of a consortium of venture capital companies, private equity and tech companies, including Oracle. And as you know, Larry Ellison has just. His wealth has increased enormously. And I think he's interested in this too. So he apparently is part of this consortium. And the argument is that, well, you, you, you, you. We need a. We have to add a board of director. Someone on the board of director who has some American affiliation. That's a requirement. And, and will extend the deadline for 90 days, hoping that the consortium can pull together the funds and meet with the regulatory approval that this no longer presents a national security risk to the United States.

[Thane Rosenbaum]

So do you have TikTok on your phone?

[Jack Armstrong]

No.

[Thane Rosenbaum]

No, me neither. And I can't.

[Jack Armstrong]

I don't know. I vaguely know what it is, but. Jack, Jack, if you'll remember, you had trouble calling me.

[Thane Rosenbaum]

Yeah, well, I didn't personally, but obviously.

[Jack Armstrong]

Right. I'm saying. No, I'm blaming myself since I don't have Tick Tock. I don't even know how to use a phone, apparently, so I'm not the right guy.

[Thane Rosenbaum]

Do you not have Tick Tock because you're worried it's a Chinese data harvesting tool?

[Jack Armstrong]

No, not really.

[Thane Rosenbaum]

You're just not interested in social media.

[Jack Armstrong]

I'm a writer by trade and I just don't live in a world where everything has to be visual. And I work for CBS Radio. Yeah, I don't, you know, I don't. I don't focus. I don't need videos all day to keep me entertained.

[Thane Rosenbaum]

Yeah. And I understand completely. The only reason I ever got Instagram, which was fairly recently, is it's kind of a marketing tool for the show. But. Yeah, but, but we've had the stats before and you've probably seen them of how many hours a day young people spend on TikTok. I mean, it's crazy, they almost seem made up. But I assume they're true because I've seen study after study say that, you know, it's five hours for this group or seven hours for that group. I don't even know how that's possible.

[Jack Armstrong]

But it's even worse than that, Jack, because if they were just watching videos of people dancing with their cats, that would be one thing. It would be. It would be stupid as all get out. But if that's how you want your kid to spend your day with another cat, that's dancing, fine. But what we're really learning, which is really distressing and it raises First Amendment issues and other regulatory issues, is that most young people get their news from TikTok.

[Thane Rosenbaum]

Yeah.

[Jack Armstrong]

So that's where it's worse than being entertained by silly videos. It's that algorithms that can easily be manipulated are tailor making a newsfeed they tailor it for certain age groups, for certain sensibilities, perspectives, where they live, you know, whatever information. So that's really what national security means. It doesn't necessarily mean a bomb is going to go off. It means that you're going to mine data that tells you everything you need to know about America, where we're vulnerable, what kind of stuff we believe in, how easy it is to manipulate us. Just give us a video or shade.

[Thane Rosenbaum]

News stories, a certain direction that's in your favor.

[Jack Armstrong]

Exactly right. As I'm saying about, you know, tailoring news feeds or blocking news feeds, for instance, make sure that Jack Armstrong never sees a story about this.

[Thane Rosenbaum]

Right.

[Jack Armstrong]

He cannot see a story about this because he's the kind of guy that will, It'll, It'll. He'll talk about it on a show. So you're saying that's the kind of manipulation. And, you know, remember, the social media companies are protected. The government doesn't. Can't interfere with their First Amendment rights. So if TikTok is an American company, if it becomes one, the government really can't regulate it because they're saying, look, we have First Amendment rights. We're essentially like a newspaper. You can't tell us what to publish or what not to publish.

[Thane Rosenbaum]

Right. My final question, you're the CBS News legal analyst, but I'm going to quote. So CNBC reported the other day that the algorithm was going to, that the, for the, for the deal to happen, it was going to have to be a different algorithm then I think it was. The Wall Street Journal reported that though it was going to be the same algorithm. Well, that's a pretty big difference because if it's a different algorithm, it's. It, you can call it TikTok, but it's not the same thing. And from what I understand from people who love TikTok, it's all about that amazing algorithm that can pretty predict what you want to be entertained by.

[Jack Armstrong]

Yeah, I mean, that's the, that's the problem, the algorithm. Although I read somewhere else that they're saying, well, nowadays, at the time that this legislation was created, you know, algorithms were impenetrable and could never be duplicated. Okay. And apparent. And apparently that's no longer true. Gotcha. You know, we've, we've cracked, we've cracked the code and people can actually duplicate it themselves. That doesn't change the fact that we don't obligate social media companies or Internet companies to tell balanced stories. It doesn't, you know, doesn't change the fact that, you know, should we be regulating? Should there be subject to the FEC and other regulations? You know, there used to be something called, you're probably way too young for this, Jack. The Fairness Doctrine, which ended, I think, in the late 80s, where if you had a license for broadcasting, NBC, ABC, CBS, you had to present controversial views and you had to present other views so that it was more balanced. They got rid of that. So that's why when I was a kid and Walter Cronkite was the anchor for CBS News and a third of the country, or half of the country was watching him, no one knew if he was a Democrat or Republican, you had no way of knowing. That was a different time. Now it's clear the politics is on your sleeve, no matter who you are. We tell you up front and we protect you from differing opinions.

[Thane Rosenbaum]

So I got one question. This is a Thane Rosenbaum question. So TikTok is beneath you. Are chatbots beneath you to use ChatGPT and stuff like that?

[Jack Armstrong]

Not yet.

[Thane Rosenbaum]

Not yet. Good for you.

[Jack Armstrong]

Not yet. I'm not saying that I won't, but, you know, I'm a writer and a novelist and that stuff scares me.

[Thane Rosenbaum]

Here, I'll get my card. I am currently reading ulysses and I'm 40% of the way through. I'm fighting my way through that book. So to give myself some credibility in your world, the higher thinking world.

[Jack Armstrong]

You really impressed the hell out of me, Jack. That was pretty good. You're the only radio guy that I've talked to in years who says anything like that. James Joyce is something you're reading. Yeah. There you go. Thank you.

[Thane Rosenbaum]

Rosenbaum, CBS News legal analyst. Thanks for your time today. I appreciate it.

[Jack Armstrong]

Thank you, Jack.

[Thane Rosenbaum]

I liked his personality. Very entertaining guy. Okay, we got more on the way. Stay here.

[Jack Armstrong]

Armstrong and Getty.

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[Jack Armstrong]

This is an iHeart podcast.