Thane Rosenbaum (2:59)

Welcome Thane Rosenbaum to The show now. CBS News legal analyst. So what is going on with TikTok? Is it going to exist in the United States and is it going to be the same algorithm?

Jack Armstrong (3:08)

So jacket, we won't know for another 90 days. This is now the fourth attempt to stave off forcing TikTok to end operations in the United States. Remember, this started with legislation during the Biden administration that essentially had a, you know, we're not interested in social media companies that mine data of Americans that come from putative enemies of ours and that there was no sufficient insulation or Chinese wall, so to speak, between the Chinese government and TikTok.

Thane Rosenbaum (3:43)

That's a reasonable stance, in my opinion.

Jack Armstrong (3:46)

Yeah, yeah. And the TikTok, we're not really owned by Chinese. Come on. And so there became a fight about that when in fact, bytedance did have relationships with the Chinese government. And it's, it's not as if they could refuse a request. Right. You know, it's like the Chinese government is like the Godfather. You don't request. If they had asked for something, they would have said yes. So the Biden administration said, look, you either sell yourself to an independent corporation or you shut down your operation in the United States. You want to do whatever you do in Europe, that's fine, but not here. Donald Trump said, well, wait a minute, I think I won this election in part because of TikTok.

Thane Rosenbaum (4:28)

Probably true.

Jack Armstrong (4:30)

It rallied an audience that I didn't really even have the last time. And everyone seems to have it. And there were an enormous amount of. It's not just, apparently, I wouldn't know this Jack, but apparently it's not just images of people dancing with their cats. There are in fact, small businesses all over the United States that depend on TikTok as their main marketing technique. So there was a movement among American businesses that said, well, wait a minute, we're a small business. This is how we could be. We need TikTok. So Donald Trump signed a series of executive orders, just one the other day, that extended the time period for either shutting down or selling. And he claims that he knows of a consortium of venture capital companies, private equity and tech companies, including Oracle. And as you know, Larry Ellison has just. His wealth has increased enormously. And I think he's interested in this too. So he apparently is part of this consortium. And the argument is that, well, you, you, you, you. We need a. We have to add a board of director. Someone on the board of director who has some American affiliation. That's a requirement. And, and will extend the deadline for 90 days, hoping that the consortium can pull together the funds and meet with the regulatory approval that this no longer presents a national security risk to the United States.

Thane Rosenbaum (6:05)

So do you have TikTok on your phone?

Jack Armstrong (6:08)

No.

Thane Rosenbaum (6:08)

No, me neither. And I can't.

Jack Armstrong (6:11)

I don't know. I vaguely know what it is, but. Jack, Jack, if you'll remember, you had trouble calling me.

Thane Rosenbaum (6:20)

Yeah, well, I didn't personally, but obviously.

Jack Armstrong (6:23)

Right. I'm saying. No, I'm blaming myself since I don't have Tick Tock. I don't even know how to use a phone, apparently, so I'm not the right guy.

Thane Rosenbaum (6:33)

Do you not have Tick Tock because you're worried it's a Chinese data harvesting tool?

Jack Armstrong (6:39)

No, not really.

Thane Rosenbaum (6:40)

You're just not interested in social media.

Jack Armstrong (6:43)

I'm a writer by trade and I just don't live in a world where everything has to be visual. And I work for CBS Radio. Yeah, I don't, you know, I don't. I don't focus. I don't need videos all day to keep me entertained.

Thane Rosenbaum (6:57)

Yeah. And I understand completely. The only reason I ever got Instagram, which was fairly recently, is it's kind of a marketing tool for the show. But. Yeah, but, but we've had the stats before and you've probably seen them of how many hours a day young people spend on TikTok. I mean, it's crazy, they almost seem made up. But I assume they're true because I've seen study after study say that, you know, it's five hours for this group or seven hours for that group. I don't even know how that's possible.

Jack Armstrong (7:24)

But it's even worse than that, Jack, because if they were just watching videos of people dancing with their cats, that would be one thing. It would be. It would be stupid as all get out. But if that's how you want your kid to spend your day with another cat, that's dancing, fine. But what we're really learning, which is really distressing and it raises First Amendment issues and other regulatory issues, is that most young people get their news from TikTok.

Thane Rosenbaum (7:51)

Yeah.

Jack Armstrong (7:52)

So that's where it's worse than being entertained by silly videos. It's that algorithms that can easily be manipulated are tailor making a newsfeed they tailor it for certain age groups, for certain sensibilities, perspectives, where they live, you know, whatever information. So that's really what national security means. It doesn't necessarily mean a bomb is going to go off. It means that you're going to mine data that tells you everything you need to know about America, where we're vulnerable, what kind of stuff we believe in, how easy it is to manipulate us. Just give us a video or shade.

Thane Rosenbaum (8:28)

News stories, a certain direction that's in your favor.

Jack Armstrong (8:32)

Exactly right. As I'm saying about, you know, tailoring news feeds or blocking news feeds, for instance, make sure that Jack Armstrong never sees a story about this.

Thane Rosenbaum (8:43)

Right.

Jack Armstrong (8:44)

He cannot see a story about this because he's the kind of guy that will, It'll, It'll. He'll talk about it on a show. So you're saying that's the kind of manipulation. And, you know, remember, the social media companies are protected. The government doesn't. Can't interfere with their First Amendment rights. So if TikTok is an American company, if it becomes one, the government really can't regulate it because they're saying, look, we have First Amendment rights. We're essentially like a newspaper. You can't tell us what to publish or what not to publish.

Thane Rosenbaum (9:15)

Right. My final question, you're the CBS News legal analyst, but I'm going to quote. So CNBC reported the other day that the algorithm was going to, that the, for the, for the deal to happen, it was going to have to be a different algorithm then I think it was. The Wall Street Journal reported that though it was going to be the same algorithm. Well, that's a pretty big difference because if it's a different algorithm, it's. It, you can call it TikTok, but it's not the same thing. And from what I understand from people who love TikTok, it's all about that amazing algorithm that can pretty predict what you want to be entertained by.

Jack Armstrong (9:48)

Yeah, I mean, that's the, that's the problem, the algorithm. Although I read somewhere else that they're saying, well, nowadays, at the time that this legislation was created, you know, algorithms were impenetrable and could never be duplicated. Okay. And apparent. And apparently that's no longer true. Gotcha. You know, we've, we've cracked, we've cracked the code and people can actually duplicate it themselves. That doesn't change the fact that we don't obligate social media companies or Internet companies to tell balanced stories. It doesn't, you know, doesn't change the fact that, you know, should we be regulating? Should there be subject to the FEC and other regulations? You know, there used to be something called, you're probably way too young for this, Jack. The Fairness Doctrine, which ended, I think, in the late 80s, where if you had a license for broadcasting, NBC, ABC, CBS, you had to present controversial views and you had to present other views so that it was more balanced. They got rid of that. So that's why when I was a kid and Walter Cronkite was the anchor for CBS News and a third of the country, or half of the country was watching him, no one knew if he was a Democrat or Republican, you had no way of knowing. That was a different time. Now it's clear the politics is on your sleeve, no matter who you are. We tell you up front and we protect you from differing opinions.

Thane Rosenbaum (11:09)

So I got one question. This is a Thane Rosenbaum question. So TikTok is beneath you. Are chatbots beneath you to use ChatGPT and stuff like that?

Jack Armstrong (11:19)

Not yet.

Thane Rosenbaum (11:20)

Not yet. Good for you.

Jack Armstrong (11:21)

Not yet. I'm not saying that I won't, but, you know, I'm a writer and a novelist and that stuff scares me.

Thane Rosenbaum (11:28)

Here, I'll get my card. I am currently reading ulysses and I'm 40% of the way through. I'm fighting my way through that book. So to give myself some credibility in your world, the higher thinking world.

Jack Armstrong (11:40)

You really impressed the hell out of me, Jack. That was pretty good. You're the only radio guy that I've talked to in years who says anything like that. James Joyce is something you're reading. Yeah. There you go. Thank you.

Thane Rosenbaum (11:54)

Rosenbaum, CBS News legal analyst. Thanks for your time today. I appreciate it.

Jack Armstrong (11:58)

Thank you, Jack.

Thane Rosenbaum (11:59)

I liked his personality. Very entertaining guy. Okay, we got more on the way. Stay here.

Jack Armstrong (12:06)

Armstrong and Getty.

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Jack Armstrong (15:20)

This is an iHeart podcast.