A Free Speech Crisis. Greg Lukianoff Talks to A&G

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Armstrong & Getty On Demand

Episode: A Free Speech Crisis. Greg Lukianoff Talks to A&G
Release Date: September 19, 2025
Guests: Greg Lukianoff (President, FIRE; Author), Armstrong (Co-host)

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Episode Overview

In this timely episode, Armstrong welcomes Greg Lukianoff—prominent First Amendment advocate, president of FIRE (Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression), and author of several books on free speech and cancel culture—for an in-depth examination of America's intensifying free speech crisis. The conversation revolves around the rhetorical conflation of "words as violence," the consequences of recent political violence (specifically, the assassination of Charlie Kirk), the cultural and institutional underpinnings of cancel culture, and the worrying trend of both left- and right-wing censorship—from academia to broadcasters like Jimmy Kimmel. Lukianoff sounds the alarm about the U.S. entering a new, dangerous phase of free speech repression, emphasizing the urgent need for clear boundaries, philosophical rigor, and cross-ideological support for First Amendment principles.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The "Words as Violence" Cliché & Its Dangers

• [04:18] Greg Lukianoff traces the rise of the activist rhetoric equating words to physical violence.
  • "When I first started my job, the sort of activist argument that words can be just like bullets was something that people kind of rolled their eyes at... But...this started to become a common argument that I would hear on campus." (Greg Lukianoff, 04:18)
  • This framing, according to Lukianoff, is neither progressive nor intellectually defensible, but "gets you back to the 13th century, either AD or BC" (04:57).
• Consequences:
  • It fuels a mindset where people feel justified resorting to actual violence in response to speech, as seen in the murder of Charlie Kirk.
  • Distinction between violence and speech is "a bright line" central to democratic society.

2. Attitudes Toward Violence in Response to Speech, Especially Among Students

• [06:26] Lukianoff shares disturbing findings:
  • "About one third of the students we surveyed...said that at least in rare cases, violence can be acceptable in response to speech. Some schools...over 50%."
    • "We have done something terribly wrong if educated people...think that violence in response to words...is sometimes even noble." (Greg Lukianoff, 06:26)
  • "It’s bad for people’s mental health to have this kind of catastrophizing way of thinking about [speech]" (06:26).

3. Free Speech and Censorship on Campus—Who’s Doing What

• [07:43]
  • Armstrong: "It's pretty one sided, isn't it, that liberals can say whatever they want and conservatives can't?"
  • Lukianoff: The situation is more nuanced but generally, on campus, censorship is from the left (due to demographics); off campus, right-wing censorship and pressure are growing.
    • "If the censorship comes from on campus, it comes from the left...If it comes from off campus, it tends to come from the right." (07:43)

4. The Impact of Catastrophic Thinking & Optimism for Change

• [08:44] Lukianoff warns that accepting "words = violence" leads to a dangerous emotional state as everyone anticipates violence for mere words.
• When asked if he’s optimistic post-Kirk assassination:
  • "I would like to say I'm optimistic, but I think that we're probably in the beginning of an intensifying sort of free speech crisis. And it's happening not just in the US—it's happening globally." (Greg Lukianoff, 09:23)
  • Both hosts discuss disturbing trends in the UK: "Horrifying. And my mom is British, so it's very personal...the sheer number of people that they're arresting...has no parallel in British history." (Greg Lukianoff, 09:47)

5. Cancel Culture, Government Pressure & Jimmy Kimmel’s Firing

• [12:55] Armstrong and Lukianoff tackle the "canceling" of public figures, using Jimmy Kimmel as an example.
  • "Should the government be getting involved in putting pressure on broadcast licenses to get rid of someone like Jimmy Kimmel because they don't like what they say?" (Armstrong, 12:55)
  • Lukianoff: Each case is nuanced, but Kimmel's ouster is exceptional in scale.
    • "I've never seen something quite like this...I just haven't seen this level of pressure on mainstream networks to silence a comedian." (Greg Lukianoff, 15:11)
• Both warn about the danger of allowing government agencies (like the FCC) to decide who can speak:
  • "If the FCC can pressure him off the air, they can pressure Joe and I off...in a different administration." (Armstrong, 15:36)
  • Lukianoff emphasizes: "Right now, the rules of the road matter more than ever, and it’s our job to defend them." (16:54)

6. Charlie Kirk, Productive Campus Dialogue & The Backlash to Political Violence

• [17:04] Armstrong asks if Charlie Kirk’s presence on campus was good for free speech.
  • Lukianoff: Generally yes, despite his disagreements with some Turning Point USA tactics.
    • "Charlie's murder has led me to go back and look at some of his discussions with students...and he dealt with them usually...pretty civilly. So I've left with an impression that it was a productive dialogue." (Greg Lukianoff, 17:42)
  • On backfire: "Political violence tends to backfire." (17:42)

7. Overcoming Fear & Standing Up for Free Speech

• [18:19] Lukianoff confesses to being "spooked" about speaking at Utah Valley after violent incidents, but insists:
  • "You can't ever let the, you know, assassin veto win. You have to actually show up...Free speech belongs to us all or belongs to nobody." (Greg Lukianoff, 18:19)
  • Warns that younger people are being "miseducated" to believe free speech is only for “the bully, the bigot, and the robber baron," insisting “that is just bad history.” (18:50)

8. The Call to Action for Listeners

• [19:29] Lukianoff invites support for FIRE, warning that the organization is "overwhelmed," and urging principled defenders of free speech to get involved.
  • "Right now to use a pun, it's free speech is kind of a house on fire." (Greg Lukianoff, 19:29)

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Notable Quotes

• "We have a societal agreement...there's a bright line distinction between physical violence and expression of opinion."
  — Greg Lukianoff (04:18)

• "If educated people...almost half of them think that violence in response to words [is acceptable]...we have done something terribly wrong."
  — Greg Lukianoff (06:26)

• "If the censorship comes from on campus, it comes from the left...If it comes from off campus, it tends to come from the right."
  — Greg Lukianoff (07:43)

• "I would like to say I'm optimistic, but...we're probably in the beginning of an intensifying sort of free speech crisis."
  — Greg Lukianoff (09:23)

• "I've never seen something quite like this...this level of pressure on mainstream networks to silence a comedian."
  — Greg Lukianoff (15:11)

• "Right now, the rules of the road matter more than ever, and it’s our job to defend them."
  — Greg Lukianoff (16:54)

• "You can't ever let the, you know, assassin veto win. You have to actually show up...Free speech belongs to us all or belongs to nobody."
  — Greg Lukianoff (18:19)

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Timeline of Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:05 | Armstrong introduces Greg Lukianoff and sets up the free speech discussion | | 04:18 | "Words as violence": Where the idea came from and why it's dangerous | | 06:26 | Survey: 1/3 of students say violence can be acceptable in response to speech| | 07:43 | Censorship breakdown: Left vs Right, on- vs off-campus | | 08:44 | The dangers of emotional reasoning: escalating to violence | | 09:23 | Outlook for free speech: global crisis and pessimism | | 12:55 | Cancel culture, Kimmel, and government interventions | | 15:11 | Unprecedented pressure to silence mainstream comedians | | 16:54 | First Amendment principles and the importance of neutral rules | | 17:04 | On Charlie Kirk's campus engagements and productive dialogue | | 18:19 | Refusing to give in to fear/violence—speaking at Utah Valley | | 19:29 | Call for support: FIRE is overwhelmed |

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Tone & Language

The conversation is thoughtful, urgent, and at times alarmed—especially about society’s direction regarding free speech. Both Armstrong and Lukianoff maintain a conversational, candid style. Lukianoff adopts a reasoned tone, referencing data and legal principles, while Armstrong interjects skepticism about both sides’ abuses of power and emphasizes the need for consistent standards.

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Conclusion

This episode offers a rigorous and timely exploration of the escalating threats to free speech in America, paying special attention to the cultural, institutional, and psychological roots of the crisis. Lukianoff argues forcefully for drawing clear lines between speech and violence, warns of the dangers of government censorship, and calls for renewed principled defense of First Amendment rights—regardless of political affiliation.

If you care about the future of free speech, this is a vital listen and a rallying cry for action.

Transcript

[Greg Lukianoff]

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[Armstrong]

Man, did we get lucky with the timing of this. Our next guest we could talk to, I could talk to for the next three hours easily, because he's one of the leading thinkers in a couple of the hottest topics going right now. So Greg Lukanov, New York Times best selling author, the president of fire, which is a foundation for individual rights and expression, all about free speech. That's with Jimmy Kimmel losing his job. Does that fit into that whole topic? Is the author of Unlearning Liberty, Campus Censorship and the End of American Debate. Canceling of the American Mind. Cancel Culture. All about cancel culture, which is hot right now, of course. And then part of this Free Press series on repairing America after the murder of Charlie Kirk. And this particular piece that I've got in front of me from Greg Lukianoff. Barry, the whole words are violence, cliche, which I would agree with. Anyway, welcome back to the Armstrong and Getty Show, Greg Lukianoff. Greg, thanks for joining us today.

[Greg Lukianoff]

Great to be back, man.

[Armstrong]

You obviously are the man of the moment for a whole bunch of these topics. Let's start with what you just wrote, the bury the words or violence cliche around the whole Charlie Kirk thing. What are you talking about?

[Greg Lukianoff]

Yeah, you know, I've been, I've been defending free speech at fire for 24 years now. And I'd say when I first started my job, the sort of activist argument that words can be just like bullets was something that people kind of rolled their eyes at because it was obviously a sort of self serving rhetorical flourish. Right. But I, but I'd say like 10 years ago, or maybe even as long as 15 years ago, this really started to become a common argument that I would hear on campus. And then you started having people who should have known better actually saying, well, words can cause stress. So therefore that is a lot like violence. And you know, me and John Haidt, who I wrote Paddling the American Mind with, we wrote a piece in the Atlantic saying, no, this is crazy words. We have a societal agreement essentially, and you're supposed to have it in a democratic society that there's a bright line distinction between physical violence and expression of opinion. And I was, I've been, you know, screaming to high heaven to say like, no, this is an incredibly foolish idea. It's not progressive. It gets you back to the 13th century, either AD or BC. It doesn't matter.

[Armstrong]

Yeah, I mean just, just, just as an aside on that, I remember at one point when the New York Times a couple of years ago actually said intent doesn't matter. So not only had words become violence, but sometimes the way they took your words, even if you didn't intend it that way. So man, you're really into pre enlightenment then, but go ahead.

[Greg Lukianoff]

Yeah, no, no, exactly. And the thing is, of course this kind of, you know, foolish self serving rhetoric actually turns into a situation that justifies violence for speech. And this is oftentimes coming from people who think that they're anti totalitarian. It's like there's nothing more totalitarian than saying that I get to respond to your words with violence. Or in the case, the horrifying case last week, murder.

[Armstrong]

Right, so you want to do away with that because you think it's leading to violence. The saying words are violence because that can justify this particular maniac nut job as feeling like he's meeting violence with violence.

[Greg Lukianoff]

Yeah, yes. But also I think it's bad for people's mental health to have this kind of like catastrophizing way of thinking about that. And here's the most horrifying thing. We just released a massive study for our campus free speech ranking. About one third of the students we surveyed in about out of like 70 said that at least in rare cases, violence can be acceptable in response to speech. Some schools that answer was over 50% of them. We have done something terribly wrong. If educated people are being educated and almost half of them think that violence in response to words. And the funny thing is, oftentimes it's not that they think it's just acceptable. They think in some cases it's noble to respond to speakers with usually lighter forms of violence like shout downs or blocking people school's access. But here we see it at its most chilling and horrifying.

[Armstrong]

All right, since you make this list every year of where at what campuses have the least free speech, there's this contest going on right now, you know, who, who's worse, which side is worse, which side commits more violence, which side does more cancel culture, that sort of thing. But when it comes to college campuses, it's pretty one sided, isn't it, that liberals can say whatever they want and conservatives can't.

[Greg Lukianoff]

It's a little more complicated than that. But you know, fire has been a second to no one in taking on sort of like what might be called woke censorship. But generally the rule is if the censorship comes from on campus. It comes from the left. If the censorship. Because it's just not that many conservatives on campus in the first place. But if it comes from off campus, it tends to come from the right. And what we're seeing right now is a big surge of cancellations, of censorship actually being pressured from the right as well.

[Armstrong]

So would the hope be that. Because I think you're right. I think this puts us in a bad headspace if we buy into the idea that words are violence. You've been taught that you should react as if somebody's threatening to punch you or shoot you when you hear something you don't like. And that gets everybody's emotions running really, really high. And then if we could get away with that, maybe we wouldn't have things like Riley Gaines having to fight her way out of Berkeley or Charlie Kirk being shot to death.

[Greg Lukianoff]

Exactly. It's a foolish idea. I think people, you know, people who are actually thinking people know that it's just kind of a rhetorical flourish. But I believe some of these younger people really do feel like they're in a simplistic battle of good versus evil and evil must be stopped. And by the way, that's an anti intellectual way of thinking about. That's not an intellectual way of thinking about the world, man.

[Armstrong]

No doubt. Before I move on to the Jimmy Kimmel thing and how it fits into everything, how optimistic are you for us? Like really learning a lesson from this horrible assassination and turning some sort of corner?

[Greg Lukianoff]

I would like to say I'm optimistic, but I think that we're probably in the beginning of a intensifying sort of free speech crisis. And it's happening not just in the US it's happening globally.

[Armstrong]

Right.

[Greg Lukianoff]

So unfortunately, business is booming in free speech land. So I'm not going to get a lot of sleep, nor will the good people at fire.

[Armstrong]

Yeah, what's going on in England is just horrifying.

[Greg Lukianoff]

Horrifying. And my mom is British, so it's very personal to me. And they will continue to. I did a piece on my sub sack. The eternally radical idea where just pointing out the sheer number of people that they're arresting. It has no parallel. I don't think it has any parallel in British history. It certainly doesn't have a parallel in American history in terms of the scale.

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[Armstrong]

So you've written a lot about cancel culture over the years and we've Got an example in the last 24 hours and since Charlie Kirk's death. So you've got people being canceled from their jobs for saying sometimes really awful, awful things. But should they lose their jobs over it? Should the government be getting involved in. In putting pressure on broadcast licenses to get rid of someone like Jimmy Kimmel because they don't like what they say? Where are you on this whole thing?

[Greg Lukianoff]

Oh, yeah. So, you know, really is a case by case thing and canceling of the American mind. You know, we give a definition of cancel culture, which is the uptick of campaigns to get people fired or otherwise punished, starting around 2014, for speech that would be protected for, say, a public employee. So we introduce a lot of, like, nuance and common sense to it. But to be clear, some of the people who are getting punished, you know, we're saying things relatively tameful things that we're seeing, at least some of the stuff we're seeing on campus. It's not all. That guy had it coming. It's a little bit like, I really disagree with that guy on a lot of things, which is, of course, you know, completely within bounds. But the Jimmy Kimmel stuff, I mean, like, yeah, he. Jimmy Kimmel was kind of a typical kind of Hollywood guy. Like, he. He just. He was desperate that this guy be right wing. And I saw this, like, in the media as well, as kind of embarrassed for a lot of mainstream media to be kind of like, well, look, his parents are Republican. He must be. I'm like, in what universe is it the case that your parents are Republican?

[Armstrong]

Because no conservative family sends their kids off to college and they come back, you know, with completely different politics.

[Greg Lukianoff]

Well, I was just thinking about family ties, like sitcom we watched as a kid, like conservative kids. That's more the way it goes. The technical term is skinmogenesis. But the. So, you know, it's kind of typical that he was kind of implying that this guy's gotta be MAGA in some of his. In his comedy routine on Monday. But then you, you know, the campaign. And it was really clearly a campaign to get Jimmy fired. Taking this opportunity really got going, you know, with Brendan Carr being really clear about it. And another thing that's really important to point out is that, you know, months ago they were saying, Jimmy Kimmel's next, you know.

[Armstrong]

Yeah.

[Greg Lukianoff]

So this was, you know, I think a target of opportunity to get this guy fired. And I've never. And to be clear, I've never seen something quite like this. And people will always do, what about ism, like, what about. What about, like, Roseanne Barr or some of these other cases? It's like, I just haven't seen this level of pressure on. On mainstream networks to silent, to silence a comedian. Right.

[Armstrong]

Well, because of my politics, I'm highly annoyed by the treating anybody to the right side of the aisle as a moron, the way Colbert and Kimmel did. But the problem with the government putting pressure on networks to get rid of them or broadcast licenses or whatever is there's gonna be a Democratic president someday. And I don't want President Gavin Newsom telling his fcc, hey, right wing talk radio is out of control and we need to do something about this.

[Greg Lukianoff]

Yeah, it is interesting the way the Trump administration has been running things. It seems like they don't care about the fact that someone else could have used this power in the future with kind of like an idea that they're always gonna be the ones who are making these calls, which I think is foolish. But it's also, by the way, rightfully banned in a lot of these cases by the First Amendment. And Fire's job in a situation like this is to call balls and strikes. And I will get people sometimes saying, oh, the political situation is so intense right now. You have to pick a side that your quaint little First Amendment thing, you know, doesn't really apply in this kind of battle. And I'm always like, no, right now, the rules of the road matter more than ever, and it's our job to defend them.

[Armstrong]

Specifically, Charlie Kirk, while he was out there doing his thing, going to college campuses, did you think that was a productive thing for free speech in America?

[Greg Lukianoff]

I did. Actually. My disagreement with Charlie Kirk is mostly due to their Scholar database, the Scholar watch list, which I was not a big fan of because it resulted in a lot of people. A lot of attempts to get people fired, a lot of, you know, a lot of cancel culture. We made a big distinction between just calling out professors, which you totally can do. But, you know, when you put, like, this is their supervisor and like, all this kind of stuff to try to get them fired, I got an issue with that. However, you know, Charlie's murder has led me to, you know, go back and look at some of his discussions with students. And I think this is having this effect all over the country, by the way.

[Armstrong]

Yeah, definitely.

[Greg Lukianoff]

Political violence tends to backfire. And I'm like, wow. Like, he think he dealt with some frustrating questions, and he dealt with them usually, like, at least the one that I saw with pretty civilly. So I've left with a Impression that, that it was a productive dialogue.

[Armstrong]

Right. I don't know if you've seen the. It's on YouTube. Charlie Kirk with Bill Maher. They had like a two hour conversation in Bill Maher's basement a couple months ago fairly recently. And it was as. It was civil is civil between two guys that agree on nothing, as you could possibly imagine. And if we can't do that, we're doomed.

[Greg Lukianoff]

Yeah. And I'm actually speaking at Sun Valley, not Sun Valley, at Utah Valley on October 30th. And what's crazy, I'm just gonna admit it, you know, am I a little spooked? You know, of course I am. And it. But you can't ever let the, you know, assassin veto win. You have to actually show up. You have to, you know, pick up the mantle. You have to have that discussion. And I'm hoping to go there with a message of essentially, free speech belongs to us all or belongs to nobody. Because I think younger people are being taught that freedom of speech is the weapon of the bully, the bigot, and the robber baron. And as I say all the time, that is just bad history. You are being miseducated on this topic. So hopefully I'm going to try and. Fire is always trying to contribute to a deeper, more philosophical understanding of the frankly beautiful role of free speech in human history.

[Armstrong]

Well, we talk about your books all the time. The Coddling of the American Mind is. My partner Joe's one of his favorite books of all time. We mentioned stuff that you write all the time. What particularly would you like us to point people to right now before I let you go?

[Greg Lukianoff]

Sure. I mean, the most important thing is that Fire is currently overwhelmed. So we could really use support from people. And we need the people who care about free speech for their own side, but also for everyone else. We need those principled people out there to come and help. Because right now, to use a pun, it's free speech is kind of a house on fire. Yeah.

[Armstrong]

Greg Lukiana, thanks for your time.

[Greg Lukianoff]

Take care.

[Armstrong]

Yeah, he is. He is really good. And he is absolutely right. Like, I can't stand Jimmy Kimmel. I mean, he makes my skin crawl. He's so smug. That's the word I was looking for. He is so freaking smug. But if the FCC can pressure him off the air, he can pressure Joe and I off. They can pressure Joe and I off the air in a different administration. Absolutely. So that bothers me. I want to tell you about trust and will real quick. This is just a really, really good idea. If you don't have a trust and will or trust or will, you could end up in a situation. If you were to pass on where there's expensive legal battles for your family to figure out who gets what, the state could jump in and make all kinds of decisions that would horrify you. Avoid all that. It starts at $199 to start setting up a trust. Trust based plan. Start at 4.99 and you could manage this trust and will online easy to use website. They're all state specific based on the laws wherever you live bank level encryption live customer support through chat, phone or email so it's easy. Secure your assets, protect your loved ones with trust and we'll get 20 off on your estate plan documents by visiting trustandwill.com Armstrong that's trustandwill.com Armstrong I know a lot of you are going to be angry and feel like I'm standing up for Jimmy Kimmel because I'm not just really rolling around in glee that he got fired. But once once you allow that weapon of canceling people from the FCC to be wielded against your enemies, it's going to come back. I just know it is. We got a lot more time to talk about this and other stuff. I hope you can stick around.

[Greg Lukianoff]

Armstrong and Getty.

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Vibrant sound wherever you go. Elevate your listening experience to new heights because let's be real, your music deserves it. The future of sound is now with LG XBoom and for a limited time save 25% at LG.com with code fall25 bring the boom X Boom.

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[Variety Podcast Host]

There's a lot going on in Hollywood. How are you supposed to stay on top of it all? Variety has the solution. Take 20 minutes out of your day and listen to the new daily Variety podcast for breaking entertainment news and expert perspectives.

[Greg Lukianoff]

Where do you see the business actually heading?

[Variety Podcast Host]

Featuring the iconic journalists of Variety and hosted by co editor in chief Cynthia Littleton.

[Greg Lukianoff]

The only constant in Hollywood is change.

[Variety Podcast Host]

Open your free iHeartRadio app, search Daily Variety and listen now.

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[Asma Khalid]

Check us [e-mail] America is changing and so is the world.

[Tristan Redman]

But what's happening in America isn't just a cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.

[Asma Khalid]

I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. i'm.

[Tristan Redman]

Tristan Redman in London, and this is the Global Story.

[Asma Khalid]

Every weekday, we'll bring you a story from from this intersection where the world and America meet.

[Tristan Redman]

Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Greg Lukianoff]

This is an iHeart podcast.