An Early Independence Day Special!

Summary

Armstrong & Getty On Demand: An Early Independence Day Special!

Host: Armstrong & Getty
Guest: Tim Sandifer, Vice President for Legal Affairs at the Goldwater Institute
Release Date: June 27, 2025

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Introduction

In this special early Independence Day episode of the Armstrong & Getty On Demand podcast, hosts Jack Armstrong and Joe Getty delve deep into the significance of the Declaration of Independence with renowned legal scholar Tim Sandifer. The conversation bridges historical insights with contemporary legal interpretations, offering listeners a comprehensive understanding of America's founding principles and their enduring impact on modern jurisprudence.

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Current Supreme Court Rulings and Universal Injunctions

Tim Sandifer begins the discussion by addressing recent Supreme Court decisions, particularly focusing on the concept of universal injunctions.

• Universal Injunction Definition: "Universal injunctions are when a plaintiff goes to court and says the government is doing something unconstitutional, and the judge orders the government to stop that action universally" (04:19).

Tim criticizes a recent ruling that restricts federal judges from issuing universal injunctions, arguing that it undermines the judiciary's role in enforcing constitutional rights. He highlights Justice Jackson's dissent, emphasizing that the ruling diminishes the court's ability to prevent unconstitutional government actions beyond just the parties involved in a lawsuit.

Notable Quote:

"What the ruling today says is, now the judge has to write in his opinion, 'I'm only saying this applies to the plaintiffs in this lawsuit.'" — Tim Sandifer (06:08)

Tim underscores the importance of an active judiciary in upholding constitutional principles, rejecting the notion that a non-activist judiciary is desirable. He argues that allowing judges to refrain from enforcing constitutional rights in broader contexts is detrimental to civil liberties.

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The Declaration of Independence as Law

A significant portion of the conversation centers on Tim Sandifer's thesis that the Declaration of Independence is not merely a historical document but a foundational legal instrument.

• Legal Status of the Declaration: Tim asserts, "The Declaration of Independence is law. It's the law of the land. It is as much the law as the federal Constitution itself" (08:09).

He elaborates that the Declaration sets forth essential principles like equality of rights, individual liberty, and limited government, which inform the interpretation of the Constitution. Tim criticizes figures like Justice Barrett for dismissing the Declaration's legal significance, emphasizing that these foundational principles are integral to understanding and applying constitutional law.

Notable Quote:

"The Declaration of Independence tells us that the Constitution has a moral direction to it. And that is that individual freedom is the primary political value, not democracy." — Tim Sandifer (09:53)

Tim discusses how the Declaration influences key judicial decisions, such as those involving affirmative action and equal protection under the law. He references Justice Thomas's use of the Declaration in modern cases to argue against policies perceived as violating the principle that "all men are created equal."

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Tim Sandifer’s Upcoming Book: "Proclaiming Liberty"

Tim introduces his forthcoming book, "Proclaiming Liberty," which delves into the history and meaning of the Declaration of Independence.

• Book Focus: The book offers a clause-by-clause analysis of the Declaration, exploring the historical grievances against British rule and the philosophical underpinnings of American liberty.

• Purpose: Tim aims to clarify misconceptions and highlight the Declaration's role in shaping American legal and political thought, particularly in opposition to narratives that downplay its significance.

Notable Quote:

"It's about the history of the Declaration and what exactly are all of the grievances talking about and what exactly Britain was doing." — Tim Sandifer (08:05)

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Historical Context: Writing the Declaration of Independence

The discussion transitions to the origins of the Declaration, focusing on the collaborative efforts and the contentious debates that shaped its final form.

• Jefferson’s Draft: Tim explains that Thomas Jefferson initially included a strong anti-slavery clause in his draft, aiming to condemn slavery as an evil and shift public perception against it.

• Congressional Edits: The Continental Congress, seeking unanimity among the diverse colonies, removed Jefferson's anti-slavery passages to maintain unity, particularly appeasing pro-slavery southern states.

Notable Quote:

"The Declaration of Independence is a statute. It was passed by the Continental Congress. It's in the Statute Books, Volume 1, Page 1 of the United States Code." — Tim Sandifer (08:09)

Tim emphasizes that understanding these historical nuances is crucial for appreciating the Declaration's comprehensive intentions beyond its well-known summary of grievances.

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Underappreciated Founding Fathers

Tim highlights several lesser-known figures who played pivotal roles in America's founding, challenging the common focus on prominent figures like Jefferson and Franklin.

• George Mason: Author of the Virginia Bill of Rights and a mentor to George Washington. Tim praises Mason's contributions, noting his advocacy for individual rights and limited government.

• Haim Solomon: A Polish Jewish financier and patriot who secretly funded the American Revolution. Despite his significant contributions, Solomon remains obscure in mainstream historical narratives.

Notable Quote:

"George Mason was the author of the very first Declaration of Rights or the very first Bill of Rights in America." — Tim Sandifer (44:33)

Tim's acknowledgment of these figures underscores the diverse and collaborative nature of the American Revolution, highlighting contributions that extend beyond the commonly celebrated leaders.

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Critique of Modern Historical Narratives

Tim expresses strong opinions against contemporary re-interpretations of American history, specifically criticizing projects like the 1619 Project for distorting the foundational narratives of the nation.

• 1619 Project: Tim dismisses claims that America was founded on slavery, reiterating that the Founding Fathers actively opposed and sought to eliminate slavery, despite its persistence due to political compromises.

Notable Quote:

"It was the last of a long series of documents that explained the causes of dispute between America and Britain... otherwise it really was oppressive and tyrannical." — Tim Sandifer (16:18)

By reaffirming the Declaration's anti-slavery intentions, Tim challenges narratives that seek to reframe America's origins through a lens that emphasizes slavery as a central founding principle.

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Educational Shortcomings and Advocacy for Liberty

Tim critiques the current state of education for neglecting the depth and complexity of the Declaration of Independence and its philosophical foundations.

• Lack of Depth: He points out that modern educational systems fail to impart a comprehensive understanding of the political philosophy embedded in the Declaration, leading to superficial interpretations.

• Advocacy Efforts: Through his work at the Goldwater Institute and his upcoming book, Tim aims to revive and reinforce the principles of liberty and constitutional law that underpin American governance.

Notable Quote:

"We want judges to be active in enforcing the Constitution. We don't want them to be wrong, of course, but we don't want the Congress or the President to be wrong either." — Tim Sandifer (07:13)

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts

As the episode wraps up, Jack Armstrong reflects on the importance of actively teaching and defending the principles of liberty that the Declaration of Independence embodies. He underscores the necessity of understanding foundational documents to navigate and uphold the nation's legal and moral compass.

Final Notable Quote:

"There was a great book that came out called the 'Radicalism of the American Revolution' by Gordon Wood... It shows just how rapidly and extensively the idea of equality transformed American culture." — Tim Sandifer (38:05)

Jack and Tim conclude with a mutual appreciation for the enduring relevance of the Declaration and the need for continuous advocacy and education to preserve America's foundational values.

---

Key Takeaways

• The Declaration of Independence should be regarded as a fundamental legal document that continues to influence contemporary constitutional law.
• Recent Supreme Court rulings on universal injunctions reflect broader debates about judicial activism and the enforcement of constitutional rights.
• Understanding the historical context and philosophical underpinnings of the Declaration is essential for interpreting its relevance today.
• Lesser-known founding figures like George Mason and Haim Solomon played crucial roles in shaping America's fight for liberty and deserve greater recognition.
• Modern reinterpretations of American history often overlook or misrepresent the anti-slavery intentions of the Founding Fathers.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Tim Sandifer: "The Declaration of Independence is law. It's the law of the land." (08:09)
• Tim Sandifer: "Justice Jackson, in her dissenting opinion, has it exactly right." (06:10)
• Tim Sandifer: "All men are created equal. These kinds of racist government policies violate that principle." (14:59)
• Tim Sandifer: "The Declaration tells us that the Constitution has a moral direction to it." (09:53)
• Tim Sandifer: "George Mason was the author of the very first Bill of Rights in America." (44:33)

---

This summary encapsulates the core discussions and insights from the "An Early Independence Day Special!" episode, providing a comprehensive overview for those who haven't listened to the full podcast.

Transcript

[Tim Sandifer]

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Broadcasting live from the Abraham Lincoln radio studio at the George Washington Broadcast Center. Center, Jack Armstrong and Joe Getty.

[Jack Armstrong]

Armstrong and Getty. And now he's Armstrong and Yeti. Goodness sakes, what a day. The crew's taking the week off next week to enjoy Independence Day and a little summer fun, family time travel, etc. Today is the last show, obviously before that. Jack is winging his way toward Florida with his boys. And I decided I would love to talk to Tim Sandifer, the vice president for legal affairs at the Goldwater Institute, about the Declaration of Independence, Independence Day, and one of my favorite books. Tim wrote the Conscience of the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, and the Right to Liberty. And by coincidence, today is also the day that the Supreme Court is handing out rulings right and left. Tim Sandifer joins us. Tim, how are you?

[Tim Sandifer]

I'm just great. Thanks for having me back.

[Jack Armstrong]

Oh, it's always a pleasure. Have you gotten a chance to take in some of the. The SCOTUS's recent issuances?

[Tim Sandifer]

I had to skim some of them. And then this universal injunction decision is. Is really unfortunate. It's a, it's a bad ruling and honestly, it's a really stupid ruling because what. Here's the thing. So universal injunctions, that's when a plaintiff goes to court and says the government doing something unconstitutional and the judge says, that's right, the government must stop doing this unconstitutional thing. That's a universal injunction. What the opponents of universal injunctions complain about is they say, well, why should a judge in California be able to bar the federal government from doing something in Florida? And the answer to that is because it's unconstitutional. What the ruling today says is, now the California federal judge can only issue a ruling barring the unconstitutional thing from happening to the particular people in that particular lawsuit. Well, of course, that's how injunctions work anyway. So all that this ruling says today is that the judge has to write in his opinion. I'm only saying this applies to the plaintiffs in this lawsuit. Well, of course, everybody knows that's already the rule. It's just that the federal government has to follow the law. So if it's doing something in Florida that's unconstitutional in California, it's still unconstitutional wherever it's happening. So it's illegal. So it's really just creating this weird new formality in how courts go about enforcing the Constitution. And Justice Jackson, in her dissenting opinion, has it exactly right. She says now a court's power to prevent constitutional violations comes with an asterisk. A court can make the executive cease its unconstitutional conduct asterisk, but only with respect to the particular plaintiffs named in the lawsuit before them, leaving the government free to violate the constitutional rights of anyone and everyone else. That's a terrible thing. And it's just. Anyway, it's frustrating.

[Jack Armstrong]

Are you surprised by it?

[Tim Sandifer]

No. Because there's been a lot of talk among the conservative legal community about trying to stop nationwide injunctions. Because a lot of conservative lawyers and judges are scared of what they call activist judges. I am not scared of activist judges. I'm scared of judges getting things wrong. Whether it be conservative or liberal judges getting things wrong. But activists, it's much worse to have a passive judge who does nothing. Right? That's much worse when the government does something unconstitutional and you go to a judge to get them to stop and the judge says, oh, I'm not, I'm. I'm just gonna let them do whatever. I'm not gonna be active. That's terrible. That's Kelo versus New London, right? Where the government comes along and steals your house to hand over to Catio or something, and the court stands back and refuses to enforce the Constitution. That's a passive judge. That's not what we want. We want judges to be active in enforcing the Constitution. We don't want them to be wrong, of course, but we don't want the Congress or the President to be wrong either. So the idea that what we want is a non activist judiciary is just crazy.

[Jack Armstrong]

Right? So people who object to the high number of these injunctions and how they've interfered with federal policy, that's in quotes. I mean, you can agree with that or not. The answer is that's why we have the appeals process. And it'll be fine. Just give it a little time.

[Tim Sandifer]

Yep, exactly. And the reason why we have so many of these injunctions going on right now is because the President is doing so many unconstitutional things. That's what.

[Jack Armstrong]

Oh, look at you. See, if you expected pandering, you're not going to get it here. So the specific reason I invited Tim to be on the show today is we're leading up to Independence Day, July 4th. And I know how much you like to talk about the Declaration of Independence, liberty in general. And one of my favorite books of yours, as I mentioned, was the Conscience of the Constitution, which to my horror, came out like 11 years ago.

[Tim Sandifer]

I know.

[Jack Armstrong]

Why did you write the book? What argument are you making?

[Tim Sandifer]

Well, so I'll preface this by saying if you like this book, you'll be excited to know I've got a new book about the Declaration of Independence that's scheduled to come out next year in time for the 250th anniversary. I just finished what I hope is the final draft of it, and I hope people will read and enjoy. It's about the history of the Declaration and what exactly are all of the grievances talking about and what exactly Britain was doing? Because it really bothers me that people say, oh, it was just a fight over attacks on tea. And they ignore that British colonial rule really was oppressive and tyrannical. But that aside, the reason I wrote Conscience of the Constitution is to argue that the Declaration of Independence isn't just a piece of political rhetoric. It's law. It's the law of the land. It is as much the law as the federal Constitution itself is law. And we tend to kind of shrug that aside for a couple of reasons. In fact, worse than that, when Justice Barrett was at her confirmation hearing, she was directly asked, is the Declaration of Independence law? And she answered, no. Well, she would have flunked my con law class for saying that. The Declaration of Independence is a statute. It was passed by the Continental Congress. It's in the Statute Books, Volume 1, Page 1 of the United States Code, Declaration of Independence. And for good reason. It sets forth the principles that make our government justified, that make it a legitimate government instead of just an arbitrary rule. And those principles are equality of rights, individual liberty, limited government, the people rule, and so forth.

[Jack Armstrong]

How do you suppose somebody is learned and intelligent as Justice Barrett would come to that conclusion?

[Tim Sandifer]

Well, so I mentioned earlier that a lot of our conservative friends are so scared about judicial activism, and so they think the way to fight back against judicial activism is to say that judges are never supposed to draw any kind of moral or normative distinctions, that judges are supposed to be just as Chief Justice Roberts said, we're just umpires calling balls and strikes. And that theory is that the Constitution has no moral direction to it, that it's just sort of this value neutral framework for democracy. And that's not correct. The Declaration of Independence tells us that the Constitution has a moral direction to it. And that is that individual freedom is the primary political value, not democracy. And today we're so propagandized to, to believe that democracy is the most important thing about our system that we forget that in fact the, the word democracy doesn't even appear in the constit of the United States. And on the contrary, the reason we have a Constitution is to limit democracy to prioritize individual rights over majority rule. But because that seems to lead to judicial activism, a lot of our conservative lawyers and judges don't like the Declaration of Independence, particularly Justice Scalia. Justice Scalia had this sort of fight with Thomas over this issue. Thomas is a pro Declaration of Independence justice and Scalia was anti Declaration of Independence. And the reason why was because Scalia thought it led to judicial activism. And Justice Thomas believes, at least to some degree in natural rights, that there really are individual rights and government must respect those in all cases. And so there's a very interesting opinion they wrote called Troxell vs. Granville where Scalia agreed with Thomas except for two sentences. And he specifically said he did not agree with those two sentences. And those are the two sentences where Justice Thomas quotes the Declaration of Independence. So it's really, this is not just a bunch of abstract theorizing. This relates to how the government actually operates in daily day to day work. Whether you believe, really believe in the principles of the Declaration or whether you just recite them without thinking what they mean.

[Jack Armstrong]

Right. And I certainly count myself among those who believe in the principles fervently. I don't know exactly how to ask this question, but on a practical level, you said, you know, the Declaration is a law. The first really on a practical level, as I look at the truths that we hold to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, among these life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Do I then look at everything that happened after that through the lens of that Declaration and assess whether it holds true to those principles or not? I mean, on a practical level, how do I use the Declaration as law?

[Tim Sandifer]

Well, the Declaration is a very broad law. A lot of one. For example, this brings up an interesting point. So a lot of the reason why lawyers or judges say the Declaration is not law is because they say, well, it doesn't have any kind of an enforcement mechanism. And usually laws say if you, you know, if you run the stop sign, you'll get a ticket, you know, and there's, there's some sort of punishment involved. But that not all laws do that. Laws that say how you write a will or how you get married. Those laws don't contain any kind of punishment to them. And yet there's still laws. Right? And a lot of the time, what law does is it announces broad, abstract principles that the government should aim at. For example, here's an example I use in the book that's coming up soon. There's a law that declares how the International Space Station program should operate. And it says in there, in all cases, the government shall prioritize the following considerations. Well, that's still a law, right? The Declaration of Independence is kind of like that. The Declaration says everything the government does is legitimate only if it respects the principles of all men are created equal with fundamental rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness and so forth. And that's obviously the most important time that that was ever applied is in the controversy over the Civil War. Right. In talking about whether or not the Constitution guarantees slavery or not, that turns on whether you think black people qualified as part of the people of the United States, as part of the one people referred to in the Declaration of Independence. And when you read Lincoln and Douglas and their debates over the meaning of the Constitution and slavery, they're constantly referring to the Declaration. The Dred Scott opinion itself talks about whether the Declaration of Independence means what it says. So, of course, this is a crucial element in analyzing whether government is doing something justly. And that's why you find the Declaration quoted in cases involving affirmative action programs, like the recent Harvard case. Justice Thomas says, the Declaration of Independence is part of our law. It says, all men are created equal. These kinds of racist government policies violate that principle.

[Jack Armstrong]

Wow, interesting. So I don't wanna get hung up on the point. We need to take a break. But. So what would you say to somebody who's defending a policy that you found to be antithetical to the themes of the Declaration? Would you declare it undeclarational? Or what would your objection sound like?

[Tim Sandifer]

Maybe the Declaration informs how we interpret the Constitution, which informs how we understand the law. And so it's kind of, you know, it's like multiple layers here. So if a question comes up about whether something violates the equal protection of the laws which the 14th amendment to the Constitution protects, then we look back at what do we mean by equal protection. Is it okay for government to give some people an advantage over others based on the color of their skin? Well, that turns on whether. What do we mean by the people of the United States who are citizens? What is the substantive values that the law is protecting and enforcing here. And to understand that, we have to read the Declaration and understand also the context the Declaration was written in, which is the principles of classical liberal political philosophy that underlie the American Revolution.

[Jack Armstrong]

I wanted to get into that very thing, the origin of the Declaration, why was written and why it was written the way it was in a moment or two. Tim Sandifer, the Goldwater Institute Much more to come.

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[Jack Armstrong]

Extended conversation this hour with Tim Sandifer, Vice President for Legal affairs with the Goldwater Institute about the Declaration of Independence as Independence Day approaches rapidly. Tim, this is a short segment and I hesitate to ask one of the big questions in a short segment, but what the heck, we'll get started and see how it goes. Why was the Declaration of Independence written? Why not just say I'm out listing all those grievances? Did they just not want to make King George mad or what? What was the purpose?

[Tim Sandifer]

So between people forget that the American Revolution was a very long process. It actually began in 1764 when Parliament passed a law called the Sugar act, which was the first attempt by Parliament to impose taxes on the colonies. And for over a decade there were these angry disputes over Parliament's authority over the American colonies. And Americans insisted that they were loyal to the King but not to Parliament. And they were very consist about this that Parliament had no authority to pass laws over them. That's why Parliament isn't even mentioned in the Declaration. Instead they use the phrase a power foreign to our jurisdiction is the phrase they use. They don't even want it to use Parliament's name in the Declaration of Independence because they say it has never had any authority over America. But the King started saying no, no. Parliament is what governs the colonies. And so after years and years of begging the King to change his mind, and he kept ignoring them, finally he sent AR to the United States, started making war on Americans. And so they said, all right, we're done having any kind of loyalty to the King also. And they had to issue a declaration that explained why and what they were fighting for. And so that's why they wrote the Declaration. But it was the last of a long series of documents that explained the causes of dispute between America and Britain. You know, and so you have to understand that history to get what they're referring to when they list all their grievances against Parliament and the King.

[Jack Armstrong]

But it seems to me it was a message to the Crown in Parliament. It was a message to other countries who may or may not be helpful, and a message to the American people as well.

[Tim Sandifer]

Yes, and that last part is really important. A lot of people overlook the fact that the Continental Congress was speaking to Americans also. They weren't just speaking to Britain, and they weren't just speaking to France and other countries. They were explaining to Americans themselves what it is we're fighting over. And that's why Jefferson tried to put in a provision damning slavery as evil, because he thought, maybe if I can sneak this provision in here, it will sort of force Americans to view slavery as un American, and that would enable us to later abolish slavery. And unfortunately, that tactic didn't work.

[Jack Armstrong]

Yeah, I want to get into that in particular next segment when we'll have a lot of time to stretch out. But I think it's one of the more insidious lies of, for instance, the 1619 Project that claims that the country was founded on slavery. And the Founding Fathers were big fans of it. A lot of them spoke openly of its evil and how they had to get rid of it somehow.

[Tim Sandifer]

That's right. That's right.

[Jack Armstrong]

Tim Sanford of the Goldwater Institute on the line. We are going to come back after a brief break full of fascinating and helpful commercial messages and. And continue on our discussion of the Declaration of Independence. I want to get into Thomas Jefferson's role, what got left out, who fought for what. Because, like every process that's ever happened in this country, it was full of bloody knuckles and differing opinions and that sort of thing, which is why I love this place so much. And Tim also mentioned that he's working on a book soon to come out about the Declaration of Independence in time for the anniversary thereof. So we will discuss that and much more. Also, get back to some of the Supreme Court decisions and check in with Jackson from sunny, humid Florida. I think before long. Stay with us. Glad you're here.

[Various Advertisers]

Thanks Armstrong and Getty.

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Full [e-mail] disclosures Summer's here and it's officially the season of wellness. For me, that means feeling energized, focused and confident and Symbiotica has become a key part of my routine. I take their magnesium L threonate and liposomal glutathione every morning. It's an easy ritual that gives me sustained energy and focus all day long. Every formula is science backed and highly absorbed so I know I'm actually getting what my body needs. Go to symbiotica.com and use code iheart to get 20 off your order. That's symbiotica.com and code iheart for 20% off today.

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[Jack Armstrong]

Tim Sandifer is the Vice President for Legal affairs with the Goldwater Institute, longtime friend of the Armstrong and Getty Show. And we're doing a slightly premature Independence Day show just because we are off next week and I really, really wanted to so here we are. I was centering the discussion I'd planned to around Tim's 2014 book, the Conscience of the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, and the Right to Liberty, but he unleashed on us the news that you're working on a new book on a somewhat similar topic.

[Tim Sandifer]

Yes, I'm doing a book called Proclaiming Liberty, which is about the writing of the Declaration, what it means, and then, you know, going clause by clause through the Declaration, explaining what each of the references are, and then concludes with sort of a My slap at the 16:19 project should be out in April of 2026 in time for the bis sesquitennial, whatever they call it.

[Jack Armstrong]

Right, right. Yeah. Give the 1619 project a good solid slap if you can. We mentioned just before the break, Tim mentioned that Thomas Jefferson, who allegedly wrote the Declaration of Independence, wanted a clause in there about the need to eliminate slavery, which runs so counter to some of the woke narratives these days. First of all, to what extent was this a solo writing project by Thomas Jefferson? And what else was fought over? What to leave in what to leave? What should we know?

[Tim Sandifer]

Oh yeah. So it's a wonderful and complicated story, which I'll get into in my book. But yes, Jefferson was the primary draftsman on a committee of five, and really it was primarily him, John Adams, and Benjamin Franklin, who were primarily responsible. Franklin was sick, so he was working from home. And so they didn't really consult him very often. And so it was primarily Jefferson and Adams. And Jefferson did the first draft. He wrote it in about two weeks and, you know, got two days, I'm sorry, and had it all ready to present to them. And then they added and took some things out, out, and then presented it to the con, to the Congress as a whole, which then went over it all over again, editing it, taking things out and putting in things and all that sort of stuff. And he had wanted to include an attack on the slave trade. Jefferson, when he was. He was already young. He's one of the youngest members of the continental Congress in 76. But even before that, he had been in his colonial legislature and he had tried to get laws passed restricting the trade in slaves as a first step to attacking slavery itself. And because, you know, you got to get your camel's nose under the tent, right? And that was the plan. And that failed because the king issued an order saying colonies may not pass any kinds of restrictions on the importation of slaves, because he said, because that harmed the profits of the Royal Africa Company, which was the Imperial Slave Trade Corporation. And so when he got a chance to write the Declaration of Independence, Jefferson says, well, I'm going to include an attack on the king for blocking our efforts to limit the slave trade. And what he wrote was the single longest passage in the Declaration of really passionate paragraphs. I mean, he's using all capital letters and underlining things because he was really into this. And he was partly hoping to persuade his fellow Americans to see slavery as an evil thing that could be blamed on Britain. Now today we say, oh, how silly for him to blame Britain for providing Americans with slaves when Americans bought slaves perfectly happily. Well, that's kind of true. But look at our own day. Look what we do today. Nowadays, we blame oil companies for global warming. We blame fast food companies for making us fat. We blame tobacco companies for selling us cigarettes. It's basically the same thing. It's blaming the company for providing you with the evil thing. As a matter of political rhetoric, it was just a handy technique that Jefferson was trying to get away with. And Adams and Franklin liked it, but unfortunately the rest of the Congress didn't. They took it out. And Jefferson was so upset about this that for years afterwards, he sent copies of his original draft to a bunch of friends. And he said, don't you think it's better the way I wrote it? And even in his Memoirs. When he was retired, he did the same thing. He put his original version in there as a way of saying, look what I tried to do and what they wouldn't let me.

[Jack Armstrong]

You know, obviously getting the southern colonies to go around, go along and stay unified was, was an ever present concern too, I would guess.

[Tim Sandifer]

Yeah, because you. The most important thing above all else was to keep all of the colonies united. If one colony peeled away and said, well, we're going to make a separate priest with Britain, that would have been a disaster because then another colony, another colony, pretty soon there would be no way of fighting back against Britain. So South Carolina and Georgia, according to Jefferson were really anti, really opposed to his anti slavery passage. And a few of the northern states he said too, although he didn't say which ones. And so it was taken out because you had to have unanimity. That was the most important thing.

[Jack Armstrong]

I'm so intrigued by your mention of Ben Franklin's role in the process, though he was sick and it was somewhat limited. I think most Americans have a view of Ben as sort of a learned godfather of witty sayings and occasional scientific discoveries. And then he went to France and had a big party and represented us. But how would you describe Franklin's role there? In the very early days, pre declaration.

[Tim Sandifer]

And post, Franklin started out as a really as loving the connection between England and America. He thought that was really valuable and wonderful and important. And he gradually came to see that Britain viewed the colonies as subordinate and that Britain thought of the colonists as their job was to work, pay taxes and shut up. And that started to really grate on Franklin over the years. And eventually he became one of the most intense pro independence guys. He was, you know, famously disowned his own son who was the royal governor of the colony of New Jersey, and disowned him for siding with the king over America. So this was not a, this was not just a lovely grandfather figure. He was a very passionate revolutionary.

[Jack Armstrong]

Right. And I remember, I can't remember where it was that I read about it, but I was somewhat surprised to read of the overt shameless bigotry of a lot of Brits and specifically British troops who came to pacify the colonies. They actually looked at us, quote unquote, as a bunch of loud, idiotic rubes.

[Tim Sandifer]

Yeah, A lot of the officers especially, and you know, with some, there is some legitimacy to that. I mean, Americans were country bumpkins, but on the other hand we were the ones doing the working and the fighting and having to pay the taxes and then you have a bunch of aristocrats who were sent over here a lot of the time. These especially the royal governors who were sent over to govern, a lot of them were just, you know, some kind of aristocrat who had gone bankrupt and needed to get away from his creditors and would come over to America to rule for his own wealth. I mean, the governor of Virginia was quite open, Governor Dunmore was quite open about the fact that he had come to America to make a fortune because he needed money from the old country, you know, and a lot of the time these governors wouldn't even come to America. Virginia, for example, was governed by, for almost a decade by a governor who never even bothered to visit Virginia. Wow. The British colonial policy was crazy and it was very oppressive. You know, there was no freedom of speech. You could be executed for expressing your political views in a newspaper. Your property basically existed it at the will of Parliament. If Parliament decided to take your stuff away. They claimed literally absolute power. And in fact, that's the most important thing that led to the revolution. Parliament passed a law in 1766 called the Declaratory act that said that Parliament had the authority to legislate for the colonies, quote, in all cases whatsoever. End quote.

[Jack Armstrong]

Wow.

[Tim Sandifer]

And that line ends up. Yeah, right. That line ends up in the Declaration of Independence, because that's really the source of all the other problems. Right. If they can legislate for us in all cases whatsoever, then your property rights and your free speech rights and your freedom of religion count nothing. And you really are a slave. If that's the case, what do you.

[Jack Armstrong]

Think is most underappreciated about the Declaration of Independence?

[Tim Sandifer]

Oh, that's a great question. I think it's probably people don't know what the grievances referred to. If you read the Declaration, it says, it has those beautiful opening paragraphs about all men are created equal, these things. And then it lists the things that Britain has done, and they're written in kind of general terms like the first one, you know, the King has refused his assent to laws the most wholesome and necessary for the public good. And people don't know what they're talking about nowadays. And what it is, is actually Britain, the King's deputy claimed the authority to veto any colonial legislation. And they did this a lot. I mean, for example, it was illegal to get a divorce in the colonies. The colonies weren't allowed to pass laws for divorce. You had to get the King's own permission to get a divorce in colonial America. But of course, the most important one is laws banning the slave trade. The king said no to any of those. People don't know this history, and it's starting to fade. And that leads to this general impression of, well, the British rule over America wasn't really so bad. The patriots were just a bunch of whiners and all this, which really ticks me off.

[Jack Armstrong]

Right. And also in the particulars, I think. And this gets back to the theme that we began with, that it's Tim's fervent belief that the Declaration of Independence is indeed law and an important, important United States law, a founding document in the truest sense, as you get into the particulars and work through them. And maybe Jefferson should add footnotes, but it further illustrates what sort of country we did not want to be and what we wanted to be in a fair amount of detail, because it's easy enough and sometimes funny to portray it as the king's a jerk and we don't want to be under him anymore. We're going to start a new country. But the thought of what sort of country was thought out very, very carefully.

[Tim Sandifer]

Oh, yeah, there's a lot of political philosophy that's distilled into the Declaration of Independence. And I mentioned that there was well over a decade of political arguments that had gone on before independence. There had been a first continental Congress, and they had also issued a declaration. And if you read their declaration, they actually list by number the particular parliamentary laws that they're objecting to. So they get into a great deal of detail. And there were pamphlets and speeches that talked about political philosophy. And Jefferson's distilling this all down into a single page because he wants it to be easy to read and understand. But we're talking about ideas that go back to ancient Greece and ancient Rome in the Declaration. So to really get a grasp of that, it requires a good deal of depth, which, you know, of course, our. Our educational institutions don't give students nowadays because we're. We're all supposed to believe that the. That the founders are just these evil white guys who wanted to. Wanted independence because they wanted to perpetuate slavery, which is a complete lie, of course.

[Jack Armstrong]

Right. Forgive me if this is inaccurate, but I think Jack mentioned that one of his sons knew all about Cesar Chavez, who was an admirable fellow in a lot of ways, but knew nothing about Thomas Jefferson, which is.

[Tim Sandifer]

Yeah, the only thing people know about Jefferson is. Is Sally Hemings nowadays.

[Jack Armstrong]

Yeah. What's your favorite Jefferson biography, by the way?

[Tim Sandifer]

Alf Mapp, M A P P. He wrote two volumes. The first One is called Thomas Jefferson A Strange Case of Mistaken Identity. And the second volume is called Thomas Jefferson Passionate Pilgrim. And those. That's my favorite biography. If you only want a one volume biography, I really like the Jon Meacham biography that came out a few years ago. The only thing wrong with it is the title. It's called the Pursuit of Power, which is a crazy title because Jefferson did not pursue power. And the book makes clear that Jefferson did not pursue power. I don't know why they called it that. Incidentally, talking about books, I want to mention you mentioned about the Declaration setting forth the ideas of a new country. So clearly there was a great book that came out what, 30 years ago now called the Radicalism of the American Revolution by a historian named Gordon Wood. And it is a hugely important book, very famous in history circles because it shows just how rapidly and extensively the idea of equality transformed American culture, that within a single lifetime people went from a sleepy colonial society where, you know, you had to take your hat off, to somebody who was higher than you on the social ladder, to a bustling industrial country with railroads and democracy and all these sort of things. And it's a very. It really tells the story beautifully and I would really strongly recommend it because a lot of people think, oh, well, it was a, you know, it was a very conservative revolution. It wasn't. It was a radical revolution in many ways.

[Jack Armstrong]

Great. I hear the audience shouting, wait, wait, I'm trying to write this down. So, Tim, if you could text that to me or executive producer Hanson, we will post [e-mail] so you can find it easily. One more segment with Tim Sandifer of the Goldwater Institute coming up. Stay with us, Armstrong and Getty.

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[Jack Armstrong]

Final segment with Tim Sandifer of the Goldwater Institute. It's our Independence Day show. A little bit early and Tim, one of the main reasons I wanted to do this is I've come to believe that the idea of liberty has become like the furniture, the background of our national discussions. We've got the people and the food and there's a TV going in the corner. And sometimes somebody mentions liberty, but we don't teach it, we don't teach enthusiasm for it, reverence for it. I think maybe it's my generation that's at fault. We just assume that everybody would always love liberty and want to defend it. And, and I've become convinced that's not the case. And so I've become a bit of a zealot for trying to do that. So thanks for helping. We're talking about the.

[Tim Sandifer]

Thank you.

[Jack Armstrong]

Oh, yeah. Goodness. I tried to stop me, but we've been talking about the Declaration of Independence. Excited to hear that Tim has a book on that topic coming out before too terribly long. My daughter went to undergrad at George Mason University and I knew the name and I thought, oh, George Mason. And I started doing some reading and realized that he, in my mind, is one of your great underrated founding fathers. Who are your favorite underrated founding fathers?

[Tim Sandifer]

Well, I would agree with you about not enough people knowing about George Mason. He was the author of the very first Declaration of Rights or the very first bill of rights in America, the Virginia Bill of Rights. And he was, he was the mentor of George Washington and the. An elder statesman that Jefferson and all the others looked up to. A really great man. Years ago, I was at a conference in Washington, D.C. this is when I was in college conference. It was a week long conference, but we had one day off to go explore a town. And so I came down that morning and I'm sitting at the breakfast table and a bunch of these other college students sitting around and I was planning on going to George Mason's house, which is just a little south of Washington D.C. and I hear them talking about what they're gonna do And I'm just sitting there quietly. I hear one of them say, where are you gonna go? And the other one said, I'm gonna go to Jamestown. And I thought, wow, that's kind of far. And then the first one says, well, what's that? And the other one says, that's where the Pilgrims landed.

[Jack Armstrong]

Oh boy.

[Tim Sandifer]

So I had to. I said, I'm sorry. I said, I'm sorry to interrupt, but the Pilgrims landed in Massachusetts. You're thinking of Jamestown is quite a distance from here and I don't think you could really get there in time. And one of them. And they go, wow, you really know this stuff. Where are you gonna go? And I said, well, I'm going to Gunston Hall. Blank stairs. I said that that was George Mason's house. Blank stairs. And one of them turns it. One of them turns to the other, it says, I'm really embarrassed. I don't know who George Mason was. I go to George Mason University. So I made them go with me. I ordered them to come with me. And we all three went down to see Gunston Hall.

[Jack Armstrong]

Oh, that's great. All right, who else?

[Tim Sandifer]

My other favorite, totally unknown founding father is a guy named Haim Solomon. H A Y M Solomon. He was a Polish Jew who came to America and became a financier and was a spy for the patriots. Was captured twice by the British for spying and managed to escape and later on became a prominent banker and lender who helped to finance the revolution in part by directly paying people like James Madison when they weren't getting their paychecks from home. You know, mail was slow, so he would just give them money to pay their rent. He died bankrupt because he gave away all of his money to the American cause. There's a statue of him in Chicago and he was very much of the view that America, because of religious freedom, was the promised land for Jews. And I have. I'm getting moved even talking about it because he was, he was a great hero. We all should remember.

[Jack Armstrong]

Yeah. Wow, that is fantastic and moving. This stuff is not over studied. It's understudied and underappreciated. Especially now. Tim, thanks so much for the time and back to work on that dang book of yours. I know you have so little more editing to do. What for advocating for liberty with the Goldwater Institute. Tim, great to talk to you. Best to the Mrs. And we will talk against soon.

[Tim Sandifer]

Thank you. See you later.

[Jack Armstrong]

All right. Yep. Jack is going to join us in the next hour from Florida, I think. I think they're already there on vacation, but he is he already has stories to tell. Probably alligator related. I'm looking forward to that. If you happen to not get our for the show or you got to go do something, that's fine. Just subscribe to our podcast. Armstrong, you get he on demand and the radio show is available to you whenever you want it. We'll also hit some of the the news of the day because there's a good bit of it and goodness knows whatever comes. Oh, Clips of the Week. We have a super bonus Clips of the Week for you to kick off next hour. Stay tuned if you can. Tom McClintock, Congressman will join us as well. Armstrong and Getty and here we have a specimen from the early 2000s, a legacy investing platform. Please don't touch the exhibit folks. It could crash.

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[Tim Sandifer]

Georgia from My favorite Murder.

[Various Advertisers]

Thanks to Hyundai, we got to take.

A post show drive in the Ionic five.

[Tim Sandifer]

We had snacks, laughs, and we even.

[Jana Kramer]

Recorded a special episode featuring some unforgettable car themed stories.

[Various Advertisers]

Take a listen. So I'm gonna tell you a story today, Karen.

[Tim Sandifer]

It's about a pivotal role that cars.

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Played in none other than the Montgomery Bus Boycott.

[Tim Sandifer]

Okay, well, yes, it's right there in the title, right?

[Jana Kramer]

This episode is brought to you by.

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You're great at protecting your own personal information. You probably even use things like two factor authentication, strong passwords and a vpn. But as much as you try to be in control of how your information is protected, there are lots of places that also have it and they might not be as careful as you are. That's why LifeLock monitors millions of data points every second for identity threats. If your identity is stolen, a LifeLock US based restoration specialist will help solve identity theft issues on your behalf, guaranteed or your money back. Plus, all LifeLock plans are backed by the million dollar protection package, meaning LifeLock will reimburse you up to the limits of your plan if you lose money due to identity theft. You might not be able to control how others handle your personal information, but you can help protect it with LifeLock. Save up to 40% your first year. Call 1-800-LIFELock and use promo code iheart or go to lifelock.com iheart for 40% off. Terms apply.

[Tim Sandifer]

This is an iheart podcast.