Armstrong & Getty On Demand

Episode: Beyond a Reasonable Doubt. Judge Larry Goodman Talks to A&G

Date: September 17, 2025
Podcast Host: iHeartPodcasts
Guest: Judge Larry Goodman (Retired Superior Court Judge, Alameda County)

Episode Overview

This episode dives into the American justice system, focusing on the recent high-profile assassination of Charlie Kirk. The hosts bring on retired Judge Larry Goodman to analyze the case, discuss the challenges of presiding over high-stakes trials, and reflect on what makes the American courtroom unique. They explore the likelihood of conviction in the Utah case, the ethics around the death penalty, and the fascinating, at times exasperating realities of seeing justice served—or not—in a court of law.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Utah Kirk Assassination Case: Open-and-Shut?

• The hosts recap the initial hearing for Kirk's alleged assassin, who confessed to his family and communicated his guilt to others. With evidence like text messages and confessions, the guest and hosts agree conviction is all but inevitable.

  • Judge Goodman: "It sounds like from the news reports and what little bit I've read that he's pretty much confessed... We used to call it a slow plea—you’re going to be found guilty, we all know it, but we have to go through the process." ([05:04])

• Judge Goodman explains the likely strategy for defense attorneys:

  • "They probably don't want to irritate the jury too much... They might raise issues about his mental health, his competency type of thing. But... you don't want [the jury] mad at you by the time you start the penalty trial." ([05:43])
  • Focus will likely shift to avoiding the death penalty rather than beating the charges.

2. The Realities of Guilt and Innocence in Court

• Judge Goodman shares personal courtroom war stories, including a four-month death penalty trial where a man accused of killing his sisters and attempting to kill his parents was acquitted.
  • "My OJ Simpson trial...the jury found him not guilty...and then about two hours later they met him across the street from margaritas." ([07:09])
• He reflects on the emotional difficulty of seeing someone he was convinced was guilty walk free—a reality of the system.

3. Is the American System the Best?

• The hosts question whether the US justice system is superior to others or just better than nothing.
  • Judge Goodman: "We do have probably the best system. The problem with our system now is [it's] become subject to a lot of politics... I've seen judges...that do things they probably shouldn't do if they were upholding their oath." ([08:42])
  • Goodman prefers "better to have a guilty person go free than have an innocent person be executed or spend thirty years in prison" ([08:42]). He stands by the principle, even when it means letting someone go who, in his view, was certainly guilty.

4. Consequences of Justice System Errors

• Sometimes justice is blind because it has to be:
  • Goodman recounts a painful case where crucial victim testimony could not be admitted due to legal technicalities (hearsay), even though he believed it would have resulted in a conviction. He struggled with the decision but affirms, “I had to make the ruling in favor of the defense...I still live with that one.” ([08:42])

5. The Role (and Problem) of Cameras in the Courtroom

• The hosts and Judge Goodman are wary of media exposure.
  • "I never let cameras in the courtroom ... Lawyers play to the cameras, they get a little more outrageous...sometimes it makes the jury feel uncomfortable..." ([11:21])
  • On “transparency,” Goodman is skeptical: "Judges will play to the camera... You can become famous." ([12:10])
  • He prefers people observe in person if they wish.

6. Utah’s Strict Death Penalty Standards

• Judge Goodman notes that Utah has a stricter approach to aggravating factors in death penalty cases compared to California, focusing on whether others were put at risk during the crime.
  • "They have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he put other people's lives at risk...and that the death penalty is justified and appropriate and that's a pretty good standard." ([12:45])

7. What Kind of People Commit Heinous Crimes?

• The hosts quiz Goodman on the intelligence and intentions of the guilty.
  • Interviewer: "How often are they idiots and how often are they too smart for their own good?"
  • Judge Goodman: "I'd say most of them are idiots...but I would have a third category—some of them are just pure evil." ([13:56–14:31])
  • The concept of “shark eyes”—a term repeated for soulless, irredeemable defendants.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On procedural inevitability:
  "It's going to be more like a slow plea...You're going to be found guilty, we all know it, but we have to go through the process."
  — Judge Larry Goodman ([05:04])

• On the justice system's design:
  "It's better to have a guilty person go free than have an innocent person be executed or spend thirty years in prison. The consequences are...shocking when you know somebody's guilty...and they walked out—but you have to do it."
  — Judge Larry Goodman ([08:42])

• Personal consequence of tough rulings:
  “I had to make the ruling in favor of the defense and I think that played a big part. I still live with that one.”
  — Judge Larry Goodman ([08:42])

• On courtroom media:
  "I never let cameras in the courtroom...it changes the whole dynamics...I get the transparency thing but there's really not a good upside."
  — Judge Larry Goodman ([11:21], [12:16])

• On criminal defendants:
  "Most of them are idiots...some of them are just pure evil...this guy in Utah might just be evil."
  — Judge Larry Goodman ([13:56–14:47])

• On the “shark eyes” of true evil:
  "If you look at his booking photo, he's got those shark eyes..."
  — Judge Larry Goodman ([15:00])

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:05] – Recap of Kirk assassination case and suspect’s confession
• [04:11] – Judge Goodman’s credentials/introduction
• [05:04] – “Slow plea,” overwhelming evidence, likely defense strategy
• [07:09] – Goodman’s high-profile, shocking acquittal story
• [08:42] – US justice system strengths, weaknesses, & ethics
• [10:01] – Legal technicalities, victim testimony, and tough calls
• [11:21] – Cameras in the courtroom; how they distort proceedings
• [12:45] – Utah’s standard for the death penalty, aggravating factors
• [13:56] – The “idiots” vs. “evil” debate in criminal defendants
• [15:00] – “Shark eyes”—recognizing irredeemable criminals

Tone & Takeaway

Well-informed but conversational, Armstrong & Getty and Judge Goodman deliver a candid, sometimes biting reality check on the messiness of the American criminal justice system. Their discussion centers on how even airtight cases can go sideways, the necessity of upholding legal principles even when the outcome chafes, and the tension between transparency and sensationalism. Judge Goodman’s war stories offer rare insight into the stakes, successes, and soul-searching that define real courtroom drama.

Who should listen: Anyone interested in law, true crime, or the complexities (and frustrations) of the American justice system.