Beyond a Reasonable Doubt. Judge Larry Goodman Talks to A&G

Summary

Armstrong & Getty On Demand

Episode: Beyond a Reasonable Doubt. Judge Larry Goodman Talks to A&G

Date: September 17, 2025
Podcast Host: iHeartPodcasts
Guest: Judge Larry Goodman (Retired Superior Court Judge, Alameda County)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the American justice system, focusing on the recent high-profile assassination of Charlie Kirk. The hosts bring on retired Judge Larry Goodman to analyze the case, discuss the challenges of presiding over high-stakes trials, and reflect on what makes the American courtroom unique. They explore the likelihood of conviction in the Utah case, the ethics around the death penalty, and the fascinating, at times exasperating realities of seeing justice served—or not—in a court of law.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Utah Kirk Assassination Case: Open-and-Shut?

• The hosts recap the initial hearing for Kirk's alleged assassin, who confessed to his family and communicated his guilt to others. With evidence like text messages and confessions, the guest and hosts agree conviction is all but inevitable.

  • Judge Goodman: "It sounds like from the news reports and what little bit I've read that he's pretty much confessed... We used to call it a slow plea—you’re going to be found guilty, we all know it, but we have to go through the process." ([05:04])

• Judge Goodman explains the likely strategy for defense attorneys:

  • "They probably don't want to irritate the jury too much... They might raise issues about his mental health, his competency type of thing. But... you don't want [the jury] mad at you by the time you start the penalty trial." ([05:43])
  • Focus will likely shift to avoiding the death penalty rather than beating the charges.

2. The Realities of Guilt and Innocence in Court

• Judge Goodman shares personal courtroom war stories, including a four-month death penalty trial where a man accused of killing his sisters and attempting to kill his parents was acquitted.
  • "My OJ Simpson trial...the jury found him not guilty...and then about two hours later they met him across the street from margaritas." ([07:09])
• He reflects on the emotional difficulty of seeing someone he was convinced was guilty walk free—a reality of the system.

3. Is the American System the Best?

• The hosts question whether the US justice system is superior to others or just better than nothing.
  • Judge Goodman: "We do have probably the best system. The problem with our system now is [it's] become subject to a lot of politics... I've seen judges...that do things they probably shouldn't do if they were upholding their oath." ([08:42])
  • Goodman prefers "better to have a guilty person go free than have an innocent person be executed or spend thirty years in prison" ([08:42]). He stands by the principle, even when it means letting someone go who, in his view, was certainly guilty.

4. Consequences of Justice System Errors

• Sometimes justice is blind because it has to be:
  • Goodman recounts a painful case where crucial victim testimony could not be admitted due to legal technicalities (hearsay), even though he believed it would have resulted in a conviction. He struggled with the decision but affirms, “I had to make the ruling in favor of the defense...I still live with that one.” ([08:42])

5. The Role (and Problem) of Cameras in the Courtroom

• The hosts and Judge Goodman are wary of media exposure.
  • "I never let cameras in the courtroom ... Lawyers play to the cameras, they get a little more outrageous...sometimes it makes the jury feel uncomfortable..." ([11:21])
  • On “transparency,” Goodman is skeptical: "Judges will play to the camera... You can become famous." ([12:10])
  • He prefers people observe in person if they wish.

6. Utah’s Strict Death Penalty Standards

• Judge Goodman notes that Utah has a stricter approach to aggravating factors in death penalty cases compared to California, focusing on whether others were put at risk during the crime.
  • "They have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he put other people's lives at risk...and that the death penalty is justified and appropriate and that's a pretty good standard." ([12:45])

7. What Kind of People Commit Heinous Crimes?

• The hosts quiz Goodman on the intelligence and intentions of the guilty.
  • Interviewer: "How often are they idiots and how often are they too smart for their own good?"
  • Judge Goodman: "I'd say most of them are idiots...but I would have a third category—some of them are just pure evil." ([13:56–14:31])
  • The concept of “shark eyes”—a term repeated for soulless, irredeemable defendants.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On procedural inevitability:
  "It's going to be more like a slow plea...You're going to be found guilty, we all know it, but we have to go through the process."
  — Judge Larry Goodman ([05:04])

• On the justice system's design:
  "It's better to have a guilty person go free than have an innocent person be executed or spend thirty years in prison. The consequences are...shocking when you know somebody's guilty...and they walked out—but you have to do it."
  — Judge Larry Goodman ([08:42])

• Personal consequence of tough rulings:
  “I had to make the ruling in favor of the defense and I think that played a big part. I still live with that one.”
  — Judge Larry Goodman ([08:42])

• On courtroom media:
  "I never let cameras in the courtroom...it changes the whole dynamics...I get the transparency thing but there's really not a good upside."
  — Judge Larry Goodman ([11:21], [12:16])

• On criminal defendants:
  "Most of them are idiots...some of them are just pure evil...this guy in Utah might just be evil."
  — Judge Larry Goodman ([13:56–14:47])

• On the “shark eyes” of true evil:
  "If you look at his booking photo, he's got those shark eyes..."
  — Judge Larry Goodman ([15:00])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:05] – Recap of Kirk assassination case and suspect’s confession
• [04:11] – Judge Goodman’s credentials/introduction
• [05:04] – “Slow plea,” overwhelming evidence, likely defense strategy
• [07:09] – Goodman’s high-profile, shocking acquittal story
• [08:42] – US justice system strengths, weaknesses, & ethics
• [10:01] – Legal technicalities, victim testimony, and tough calls
• [11:21] – Cameras in the courtroom; how they distort proceedings
• [12:45] – Utah’s standard for the death penalty, aggravating factors
• [13:56] – The “idiots” vs. “evil” debate in criminal defendants
• [15:00] – “Shark eyes”—recognizing irredeemable criminals

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Tone & Takeaway

Well-informed but conversational, Armstrong & Getty and Judge Goodman deliver a candid, sometimes biting reality check on the messiness of the American criminal justice system. Their discussion centers on how even airtight cases can go sideways, the necessity of upholding legal principles even when the outcome chafes, and the tension between transparency and sensationalism. Judge Goodman’s war stories offer rare insight into the stakes, successes, and soul-searching that define real courtroom drama.

Who should listen: Anyone interested in law, true crime, or the complexities (and frustrations) of the American justice system.

Transcript

[Host]

This is an iheart podcast.

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[News Reporter]

Utah county attorney says charlie kirk's alleged assassin used his grandfather's rifle to kill kirk and afterwards praised that gun just one of the deeply disturbing details authorities revealed this afternoon a short while ago the twenty two year old suspect appeared remotely from the utah county jail for his first court appearance since the assassination of kirk robinson wore a suicide prevention smock and did not show any emotion as the charges were read he did clearly speak his name the utah county attorney says the alleged assassin confessed to his family and his lover seven charges against robinson were announced including aggravated murder.

[Interviewer]

Anyway i know they're going for the they're likely to go for the death penalty in this case and in utah they shoot you so i got no problem with that shoot this scumbag after a trial doesn't sound like it's gonna be too complicated well actually we could ask a judge about that larry goodman joins us this is katie's dad who was a judge for the superior court of alameda county for those of you across the country don't know that's where oakland is alameda county for a very long time how long were you a.

[Host]

Judge judge larry i was a judge a little over thirty three years thirty.

[Interviewer]

Three years wow so you got a bachelor's degree at stanford what'd you get your bachelor's degree in political science okay and did were you planning to become.

[Host]

A judge no i with a political science degree there's not a lot you can do except teach political science or go to law schools okay and then.

[Interviewer]

You went to law school do do do you have to go to law school to become a judge yes you do you have to be a lawyer to be a judge that makes sense yes okay so i just want to get that out of the way so any thoughts first of all just as you've been following this as a you know as a citizen of the country who just happens to have a hell of a lot of background knowledge on the way court procedures go and whether or not people are found guilty or not is he looking pretty dead to.

[Host]

Rights i would say so i mean it sounds like from the news reports and what little bit i've read that he's pretty much confessed and they can use all those text messages as statements against his own interests with his roommate that he said that he did it so yeah i think it's going to be more like a slow plea what we used to call when the evidence is so overwhelming of guilt that the person insists upon having a trial we used to call it a slow plea you're going to be found guilty we all know it but we have to go through the process what will the.

[Interviewer]

Defense attorneys even try do you suppose.

[Host]

You know in a case like this it's going to if they the jury they probably won't do a lot because it'll be the same jury that tries the case that will decide the penalty and so they probably don't want to irritate the jury too much so i think though they won't be trying any hail mary type passes they might raise issues about his mental health his competency type of thing but when you're talking about the same jury deciding that your client state is the client decides your client's guilt or innocence you don't want to mad at you by the time you start the penalty trial okay so.

[Interviewer]

There'S a chance that the lawyers are thinking the best thing we could do for this guy is keep him from getting the death penalty exactly exactly and if he's found guilty he's never getting.

[Host]

Out right well i can't imagine i mean crazy things happen i mean even during the trial itself you may have a every time you put a case in front of a jury there's always the danger of having a lawless juror or a juror that has their own agenda that throws everything off track but i would say that he's going to be found guilty and that if he is he'll either get the death penalty or life without parole okay we'll get.

[Interviewer]

Back to him and i got some questions about that but have you been a judge in cases with a scumbag that you like you fully believe they're guilty but they ended up walking absolutely.

[Host]

One of my one of my big death penalty cases were the charge was he killed both his sisters and tried to kill his parents and it was it was my oj simpson trial it lasted four months and the jury found him not guilty of two counts of murder and two counts of attempted murder and then about two hours later they met him across the street from margaritas.

[Interviewer]

Wow and when they when the foreman read out we find you know so and so not guilty were you just.

[Host]

Like what well i was i used to get the verdicts before they were read i wanted to make filled out properly and the jury came back after a four month trial they came back with a verdict in less than two and a half hours and the defense was so sure that there was going to be a guilty verdict that they as soon as we found out there was a verdict they asked if i would put their client on suicide watch before we started the penalty trial and that wasn't necessary because the jury found him not guilty so where does that.

[Interviewer]

Leave you after years of doing this a couple of different things one where do you rank our justice system compared to others in other countries or throughout history are we doing it better than anybody ever has that's always been my belief but maybe i'm you know maybe i'm wrong about that and where are you on the whole better to have a hundred men go free than an innocent man found guilty well i think.

[Host]

We do have probably the best system the problem with our system now is become subject to a lot of politics jurors come sometimes come in with their own agendas i've seen judges that get appointed to the bench that have their own agendas and do things that probably they shouldn't do if they were upholding their oath and not being partial in part and trying to be impartial and i think it's better to have a guilty person go free than have an innocent person be executed or spend thirty years in prison the consequences are it's shocking when you know somebody's guilty like i did in this case and they walked out but you have to do i had to actually make a call in that case that probably led to him being found not guilty because it was a crucial piece of evidence that the police messed up and i spent three days trying to find out a way to let it in so the jury could hear it and there just was no legal way to do that so i had to make the ruling in favor of the defense and i think that played a big part i still live with that one well a.

[Interviewer]

Big picture though the way we're supposed to look at it is that forces cops to just be better right yeah.

[Host]

I mean it wasn't just the cops fault it was just the circumstances of a key witness that was going to testify matter of fact it was one of the victims who eventually died but she targeted her brother and said he did it and i saw his face in the shotgun blast and this was after she'd been in the hospital for two months and the day before she was supposed to testify she through an air embolism and died and the statements that she made were not admissible because they weren't excited utterances or statements made in anticipation of death so it was hearsay and wasn't admitted so back to.

[Interviewer]

Utah scumbag there's going to be a tremendous amount of attention paid to this trial obviously every aspect of it this story is now what going on a week old and still leads everywhere all the time so it's it's had you know it's really gotten a lot of people's attention i don't know if utah has any specific rules around cameras in the courtroom or if it's a case by case circumstance but what are you what's your opinion of cameras in the courtroom it seem while i'm as interested in anybody is watching these sorts of things and obviously transparency is a good thing for our justice system i just feel like it distorts things so much i'm mostly against it well i tried.

[Host]

A lot of high publicity cases excuse me and i never let cameras in the courtroom that would have been your decision yeah when the cameras are in yell generally it's up to the judge to make a decision and when cameras are in the courtroom is try as hard as they may lawyers play to the cameras they get a little more outrageous they get a little more flamboyant little more aggressive sometimes makes the jury feel uncomfortable because they don't want to have a camera person slip up and show their face it changes the whole dynamics of a courtroom so i never.

[Interviewer]

Let them in that's really interesting.

[Host]

You.

[Interviewer]

Had friends i assume judges that did that would would allow cameras in though what was their argument transparency yeah transparency.

[Host]

I mean and sometimes the judges will play to the camera right you become.

[Interviewer]

You can become famous think of lance.

[Host]

Ito yeah yeah so if there's a camera there and you're feeling all judicial and everything then you act a little differently if the camera pans on the bench so there's just not a good i get the transparency thing but there's really not a good upside to having that kind of transparency if people want to see the trial they can come down and sit in the audience anything.

[Interviewer]

Before we let you go anything surprise you over the last several days since they got him arrested him you know he showed up in the courtroom first time anything we should be on the.

[Host]

Watch out for no it's interesting utah has a very strict death penalty i was doing a little research on it and the aggravation factor is that he exposed others to the risk of death or injury when he killed charlie kirk and that's what they're going to hang the whole aggravating circumstance on to try to get the death penalty in california there was a lot wider area of aggravation circumstances that you can use but this is they have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he put other people's lives at risk and proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the aggravating circumstances outweigh mitigating and that the death penalty is justified and appropriate and that's a pretty good standard so it'll be interesting to see plays out i got another.

[Interviewer]

Question before we let you go all these years of watching people come before you the ones that are guilty how often are they idiots and how often are they and how often are they too smart for their own good i think that's what this kid's deal is he's too smart for his own good he thinks he you know can fix the world and get away with it.

[Host]

And all that well i had my share of well i'd say most of them are idiots most of them are idiots most of them are idiots but i had a little high publicity cases where the guy was just thought he was smarter than everybody else in the courtroom right and it turned out but.

[Interviewer]

Yeah yeah that's that's got to be something when you when you're looking at an idiot who committed a crime you know let's not talk about really hurting somebody because there's no excusing that but you know you try to pull off a robbing a bank or whatever you must look at some of these people and think god dang it you had no shot in life you're a well.

[Host]

Yeah i mean most of them are like that particularly in oakland i mean that's that's just kind of a way of life i would i would have a third category is some of them are just pure evil ah that's a good one this guy in the room you can have the idiot then you've got the ones that are just pure.

[Interviewer]

Evil yeah and that that might be what this this shooter in utah is also he might just be evil we.

[Host]

Talked about it before the shark eyes you know and if you look at his booking photo he's got those shark.

[Interviewer]

Eyes again wow yeah that is something you've talked to us about before hey judge larry larry goodman thanks for coming on the air today appreciate it sure.

[Host]

Jack thanks for having me yeah if.

[Interviewer]

You didn't hear us talking about that before there are some people the judge said and cops will tell you this too you do look at them or they look at you and you can just see there's no soul in there for whatever reason you know whatever's going.

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[Host]

Lenovo lenovo.

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[Host]

Is an iheart podcast.