Defining Intelligence

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Armstrong & Getty On Demand

Episode: Defining Intelligence
Date: November 5, 2025
Hosts: Rodney Williams & Travis Holloway

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the question: What is intelligence, really? Rodney Williams and Travis Holloway dissect traditional and modern definitions of intelligence, debate what “being smart” truly means in real life, and explore whether intelligence is as measurable or developable as society believes. Drawing on recent research, military anecdotes, and the hosts’ personal experiences, the discussion challenges long-standing academic perspectives, advocating for a broader and more practical understanding of intelligence.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining Intelligence—Beyond Book Smarts

• Rodney Williams initiates the discussion by questioning the academic definition of intelligence, which tends to prioritize skills beneficial to academia itself—such as analytical reasoning, memorization, and verbal proficiency.
  • Quote (08:13): “Academics have mostly defined... intelligence in a way that suits them. It’s the kind of intelligence they have. Oh, what a shock.”
• Rodney asserts that true intelligence should be measured by one’s ability to succeed in life—not simply by test scores or academic achievement.
  • Quote (08:47): “Shouldn’t intelligence be whatever mental ability allows you to succeed in the world best?... Whichever combination allows you to succeed as a human being, that’s what should be called smart.”
• Travis Holloway adds that being “book smart” is often disconnected from real-world capability, highlighting people who excel academically but struggle with basic life skills.
  • Quote (09:14): “I know a couple of people... that are book smart that are just completely stupid when it comes to everything.”

2. The Real-Life Test: Succeeding Outside the Classroom

• Rodney reflects on parenting and his concerns about focusing too much on traditional metrics for intelligence:
  • Quote (10:11): “Now that I’ve got kids, I’m only worried about what kind of skills or way of looking at the world they need to go out there and succeed... The test is living life and surviving and being happy.”
• Both hosts agree that life skills and adaptability outperform academic accolades when it comes to thriving in the real world.

3. Primal Intelligence vs. Data-Driven Intelligence

• Drawing from an interview with author Angus Fletcher (as heard on Econ Talk), Rodney introduces the notion of “primal intelligence”:
  • The uniquely human ability to think and plan in situations with incomplete information—valuable in business, the military, and daily problem-solving.
  • Quote (11:37): “The ability to think and plan in situations with incomplete information. And people who can do that well make it through life OK. And people who can’t, don’t.”
• Travis contrasts this with the more conventional view of intelligence as simply “accumulated knowledge.” While knowledge is valuable, it doesn’t necessarily predict effectiveness or success in unpredictable real-world scenarios.
  • Quote (12:22): “Let’s contrast that with... the ability to spout... accumulated knowledge. Which is not a terrible standard... but... just another tool or something.”

4. Narrative, the Brain, and Adaptability

• Rodney discusses Fletcher’s background in Hollywood and the military, exploring how encountering and analyzing complex narratives helps humans develop adaptability.
  • Quote (13:36): “[Fletcher] showed how narratives aren’t just entertainment, they’re the foundation of human intelligence... We learn from those things about dealing with unexpected situations and what to do in that circumstance.”
• Reading challenging literature, according to Fletcher, literally rewires the brain for better adaptability.

5. Can Intelligence Be Developed?

• Both hosts wrestle with whether adaptability—this “real” intelligence—can be meaningfully improved:
  • Travis posits that, as with traits like extraversion or musical ability, most people can probably only get about “20% better” at things through effort and practice.
  • Quote (14:53): “You can probably get about 20% more extroverted if you work at it... but you’re never going to become an extrovert. And if you are, you know, bad at math, you can bust your butt and get at least functional, but you’re never gonna... start lecturing people on string theory.”
• There’s skepticism about how much core abilities can change, but agreement that developing adaptability even a little is worthwhile—especially in high-stakes situations.
  • Quote (16:14, Travis): “If you’ve got Boko Haram shooting at you and you can tell me if you do this, you’ll get 20% better at... staying alive... I’m really, really interested in that 20%.”

6. Why Do We Measure Intelligence the Way We Do?

• Rodney and Travis speculate that academia favors intelligence metrics it excels at simply because they are easier to measure and suit its own strengths.
  • Quote (16:35): “Academics measure it in such a way that prizes what they’re good at. That might be a lot of it.”
• But, as Travis notes, the challenge is that measuring real-world success—especially when fulfillment might mean social impact, happiness, or resilience, not just wealth or prestige—is extraordinarily complex.
  • Quote (17:45): “How do you measure what you’re talking about, like ability to thrive in life?... You have that ability in spades, and you decide to dedicate your life to educating poor kids... who’s in charge of counting the number of little kids whose lives you’ve changed?”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Real-World Intelligence:
  • Rodney Williams (08:47): “Whichever combination allows you to succeed as a human being, that’s what should be called smart.”
• On Book Smarts vs. Life Skills:
  • Travis Holloway (09:46): “It pains me to admit this... but verbal intelligence is overrated.”
• On Raising Kids:
  • Rodney Williams (10:11): “The test is living life and surviving and being happy. That’s the test.”
• On Incomplete Information:
  • Rodney Williams (11:37): “The ability to think and plan in situations with incomplete information. That’s about as good a definition of what intelligence ought to be as anything I can come up with.”
• On Personal Development Limits:
  • Travis Holloway (14:53): “You can probably get about 20% more extroverted if you work at it... but you’re never going to become an extrovert.”
• On Academic Measures:
  • Rodney Williams (16:35): “I may have answered the question. The beginning academics measure it in such a way that prizes what they’re good at.”

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Important Timestamps

• 02:59 — Bear trapped in car: comic relief before the main topic
• 07:36 — Transition into discussion about intelligence, real-life problem-solving
• 08:13-08:47 — Critique of academic definitions of intelligence
• 09:14-09:46 — Book smarts vs. life skills, and limits of current intelligence labels
• 10:11-10:42 — Focus on parenting and preparing kids for real life
• 11:00-12:05 — Introduction of Angus Fletcher’s ideas: data vs. primal intelligence
• 12:33-13:36 — The power of narrative and adaptability
• 14:18-14:50 — Can core problem-solving/adaptability be improved?
• 14:53-15:43 — “20% improvement” hypothesis; limits to talent development
• 16:35-17:45 — Why we measure intelligence the way we do; challenges in quantifying “life success”

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Tone and Style

• Conversational: Friendly banter, personal anecdotes, and humor throughout.
• Reflective: Open-minded questioning, with both hosts acknowledging their biases and being unafraid to challenge their own assumptions.
• Practical: Frequent tie-backs to parenting, the workplace, military, and daily life.

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Summary

“Defining Intelligence” calls into question everything we’ve been taught about what it means to be smart. The hosts argue that academic definitions are narrow and self-serving, overlooking the importance of adaptability, resilience, and practical success. Drawing on current research, personal experience, and relatable examples, they build the case for “primal intelligence”—the essential ability to navigate the unknown and thrive in real life. While both acknowledge that core talents may be hard to radically improve, they agree that even small gains in adaptability are invaluable, and society should rethink how it measures and values intelligence.

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Transcript

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[Travis Holloway]

One more I don't think I can.

[Rodney Williams]

Before we get to the intelligence thing or whatever the hell I'm talking about, we have this. Michael, can you explain what we're about to hear? Yeah. In Colorado we have a driver who went out to his car and there Was a bear inside and the bear had gotten in and got trapped. And so he calls the sheriff and the two of them try and get this bear out of his car.

[Travis Holloway]

I find myself wondering how the bear got trapped exactly. Did it shut the door behind itself or something?

[Rodney Williams]

I find myself wondering what I would do if I walked out and there were a bear sitting in my, my car with the doors closed. I might stand there for a while and think, who do you call for this problem? He called the sheriff. I'm not sure that's the animal control or.

[Travis Holloway]

Yeah, I think I would probably. But if you're out in the country. Yeah, a lawyer. Let's hear how the manufacturer.

[Rodney Williams]

Yeah, exactly. The Ford dealer. Very large bear in the front seat. Oh yeah, he looks pissed. So we can type, tie some, paracord the door and then we can get back and we can pull it open. Yogi, calm down. I hit it. Come on, Yogi. Auto car. You're fine. You can buff that out. It'll buff out. You guys are totally fine. I think what's more impressive is that he opened it and then proceeded to close it behind him. Yeah. Yogi has been released from the vehicle. I get it. The idea was how we need to figure out a way to open the doors but not be like so close that if it comes out mad.

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[Rodney Williams]

It tears our faces off. Yeah.

[Travis Holloway]

The video is way longer than that. But yeah, they come up with this plan and tie a couple of things together and stand back and pull the handle and. Couldn't do that with your modern Tesla, could you?

[Rodney Williams]

Huh?

[Travis Holloway]

No, the bear would just stay in there, probably drive away with your car.

[Rodney Williams]

That was charming.

[Travis Holloway]

So there's a bear in the car where the driver was. Somebody see ting berries on your feet.

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Yeah, I know a couple of people.

[Rodney Williams]

That are book smart that are just completely stupid when it comes to everything. That's what I'm saying. We have our labels. Our labels are so insufficient for what I just defined, which should be the only way to define smart. You're able to make your way in the world. We all know plenty of people that are what we usually define as smart who function horribly in the world. Right. Whether it's with their own finances or relationships or can't hold a job or whatever it is. Right.

[Travis Holloway]

And it pains me to admit this as somebody who's fairly verbal, but verbal intelligence is overrated. Being glib, being an effective communicator. Although it is a great skill.

[Rodney Williams]

It is.

[Travis Holloway]

I know people who are fairly quiet, maybe a little bit shy, but they are spectacularly effective at planning, running, growing a business, for instance.

[Rodney Williams]

I'm working towards something with a guy who's got a book out about this, but it just, it's, you know, it scratched me where I itch because I've wondered about this for a long time and like I said, now that I've got kids, I'm. I'm only worried about what kind of skills or way of looking at the world they need to go out there and succeed. I don't care about a score on any particular kind of test or anything. The test is living life and surviving and being happy. That's the test.

[Travis Holloway]

And really it's good to bottom line it like that because getting your kid into the perfect kindergarten there in Manhattan or whatever, and then the perfect school, $75,000 a year to get an Ivy League education, a degree, blah blah blah. It all boils down to can they be successful at life. However you want to define that.

[Rodney Williams]

So I picked this up from Econ Talks. Russ Roberts. That's one of the best podcasts that's ever existed. He is one of the very first people to have a podcast in 2006. So it caught on. Super smart guy. It's almost never about economics. He went through all the economic stuff like 20 years ago. It's called Econ Talk still because that is the name of the popular show. But he talks about everything. Historians, musicians, whatever the hell. And he had this author on Yesterday, guy named Angus Fletcher who says we've misdefined intelligence, which I've long believed, equating it with data driven reasoning in place of what he calls primal intelligence, which is as good a phrase as any force. Just what's going to allow you to survive in the world. The uniquely human ability to think and plan in situations with incomplete information. That's about as good a definition of what intelligence ought to be as anything I can come up with. The ability to think and plan in situations with incomplete information. And people who can do that well make it through life okay. And people who can't. Don't.

[Travis Holloway]

Wow. Let's contrast that with a more conventional description of intelligence, which might well be the ability to spout, which is a prejudicial word. Accumulated knowledge.

[Rodney Williams]

Right.

[Travis Holloway]

Which is not a terrible standard. Having more knowledge is good generally, but.

[Rodney Williams]

Just another tool or something.

[Travis Holloway]

I love that definition.

[Rodney Williams]

Yeah, it's pretty good. And this guy is. Got a bunch of degrees in a bunch of different things. But he worked in Hollywood for quite a while, working with screenplays and stuff like that. How they hold together and how it fits in with the human brain and understanding things, which was really interesting. Drawing on years of work in Hollywood and working with elite military operators, he showed how narratives aren't just entertainment, they're the foundation of human intelligence. He reveals why military special operations personnel need to create new plans on the fly and how a lot of great literature, movies and that sort of stuff, unexpected things happen and people have to deal with them. And we learn from those things about dealing with unexpected situations and what to do in that circumstance. I just thought that was a really fascinating way to look at a definition of intelligence. He believes now, of course, I like this because I do this. So I've confirmation bias on this. Why? Reading challenging literature literally rewires your brain for greater, greater adaptability, he says. I read a lot of complicated literature. I always have. I enjoy it. Has that improved my life any in that manner? I don't know. But he said he believes he has proof of that. And also working with lots of military people whose whole thing is, all of a sudden your plan ran up against reality. Your plan no longer works. Now you got to come up with something new with what little information you have to go forward. That's all of life. That's. That's every bit of life. The new job you started, the raising kids. Every day it's raising kids, your marriage, you're just everything. Yeah.

[Travis Holloway]

Wow, that's thought provoking.

[Rodney Williams]

It really is. I wonder how much you can get better at it, though. He suggests in his book, and I listen to the podcast, that we can improve that skill. Normally, the insufficient terms we use for intelligence is kind of like baked in. You either are or aren't. I don't know how much you could. You can get. You can get more knowledge. Can't really change the wattage of your brain power. But he seems to believe that you could. You can become much better at adapting to new storylines, new narratives.

[Travis Holloway]

Yeah, I've often thrown around 20% just because, I don't know, it seems right. You're an introvert. You can probably get about 20% more extroverted if you work at it and talk to yourself about why that's worth it and how you're glad you went to the gathering, blah, blah, blah. But you're never going to become an extrovert. And if you are, you know, bad at math, you can bust your butt and get at least functional, but you're never gonna, you know, start lecturing people on string theory or whatever. It's so different. You see my point? I mean, if you have no musical talent. I've known people who, I remember this in grade school, it struck me at the time as we would do little melodies on the xylophones and stuff. I had a great music teacher as an elementary school kid, but there were some kids who just had nothing.

[Rodney Williams]

That's join the xylophone right there.

[Travis Holloway]

And. And they couldn't carry a tune from childhood through adulthood. You might be able to get 20% better, but you are never going to sing at the Met or even like, you know, busk on a street corner. You're just not. So I can see that Sort of problem solving ability getting somewhat better. But I think that's probably one of those distinct kinds of intelligence that either have it or you don't. Of course, if you've got Boko Haram shooting at you and you can tell me if you do this, you'll get 20% better at, you know, fixing problems, overcoming obstacles, and staying alive. I'm really, really interested in that 20%. So I'm intrigued whether. Whether you can develop it a lot or a little. It's worth developing.

[Rodney Williams]

Why do you think it's so? I may have answered the question. The beginning academics measure it in such a way that prizes what they're good at. That might be a lot of it, but I understand why we don't have a more clear cut way of kind of ascertaining where people are on the gonna succeed at life scale, as opposed to you're gonna succeed in college. Whoopty shit. I mean, you know, whatever.

[Travis Holloway]

Yeah, yeah, right. I think part of it is that it's much easier to measure and it's not useless. I mean, you. You throw around phrases like whoopty shit, and I quote, which is a little dismissive.

[Rodney Williams]

That's from my dad. That was his. His phrase for things.

[Travis Holloway]

Because it's not useless. But how, how do you measure what you're talking about, like ability to thrive in life, especially here's where it gets crazy complicated. You have that ability in spades, and you decide to dedicate your life to educating poor kids.

[Rodney Williams]

So who.

[Travis Holloway]

Who's in charge of counting the number of little kids whose lives you've changed? I mean, accumulating wealth obviously comes to mind, but there are plenty of people who decide that's not what I'm about or having accumulated to get rid of it all or most of it. So I don't. Maybe it's so difficult to measure. If I was smarter, I could answer your question, but clearly. Sorry, I failed.

[Rodney Williams]

Huh. Well, I guess that's it. I'm Rodney Williams. And I'm Travis Holloway. Welcome to the wealthbreak podcast, a real conversation about finance. Let's be honest, building wealth doesn't look the same for everyone.

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I feel like sometimes being broke is a cycle and that we might have.

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To revisit that and we're not stopping at success stories.

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