Destroyed Means Destroyed. Mike Lyons Talks to A&G

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Armstrong & Getty On Demand

Episode: Destroyed Means Destroyed. Mike Lyons Talks to A&G

Date: December 2, 2025

Host: iHeartPodcasts

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EPISODE OVERVIEW

This episode features military analyst Mike Lyons joining the Armstrong & Getty team to discuss the controversy surrounding alleged U.S. military actions—a follow-up strike on a boat off the coast of Venezuela that resulted in casualties and political fallout. The conversation dives into military protocols, legality, politics versus procedure, and broader implications for military conduct. In the second segment, Lyons examines potential Ukraine “peace” negotiations, drawing analogies with the Korean War armistice and exploring risks, Russian strategy, and NATO’s role.

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KEY DISCUSSION POINTS & INSIGHTS

1. The Venezuela Military Strike Controversy

Background:

• The focus is on reports that several follow-up missile strikes, after an initial attack on a boat connected to narco-terrorists, killed 11 people. There is public debate regarding whether these were legitimate military actions or unlawful targeting of survivors (02:01).

Military Orders & Legalities:

• Mike Lyons emphasizes the importance of understanding exactly “what was ordered, when, by whom, and whether it was legal.”

  “You want to know what the facts are, and then you want to compare that with the relevant [procedures] and figure out what’s the correct lawful way to do things.” – Mike Lyons, 01:45

• The current scrutiny is unprecedented, with significant political overlay, and past similar missions have faced far less attention.

Destroyed Means Destroyed – Legal and Ethical Considerations

• Mike Lyons asserts that once a target is legally approved, “destroyed means destroyed,” and if there are survivors still considered part of the original target (i.e., combatants or adversaries), subsequent strikes are not inherently unlawful.

  “This is a military target...the initial target was approved legally and the target is to be destroyed. And destroyed means destroyed.” – Mike Lyons, 04:15

• Lyons stresses that U.S. forces are not targeting “sole survivors waving their hands in the water,” separating wartime targeting from classic war crimes scenarios.

  “We're not going to target sole survivors waving their hands in the water, let's say. Right. Especially with a Hellfire missile.” – Mike Lyons, 05:42

Context & Political Fallout

• Lyons sees the uproar and congressional investigation as highly politicized, linked to ongoing conflict between military necessity and civilian oversight.

  “This is a Shame. Now, we've seen the Secretary of Defense throw this over to the SOCOM commander and this admiral now will testify in front of Congress. But these missions go on all the time. They're approved legal.” – Mike Lyons, 04:55

• He points to the timing of a video released by politicians, suggesting it has influenced the current narrative and political hearings (07:04).

Professionalism within the Military

• Lyons reaffirms the professionalism and adherence to rules of engagement by U.S. operators, relaying the sentiment of former JSOC commanders.

  “The people that are on these missions are professional, they're doing things exactly by the book. And if they thought for one second that that was an illegal target...they wouldn't have fired again.” – Mike Lyons, 08:27

Memorable Exchange:

• Co-host presses on Nuremberg precedent about not targeting non-threatening survivors; Lyons contextualizes why he believes that doesn’t apply here, pending further evidence.
• Lyons is clear: the situation is murky, and more facts are needed (05:42–07:33).

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2. The Proposed Ukraine Deal – Lessons from Korea

Nature of the “Peace” Proposal

• Lyons describes any upcoming deal as a “freeze” akin to the Korean armistice, not a genuine peace treaty.

  “It’s a freeze. And you know, it’s a classic trading land for some kind of freedom or immediate relief from stopping the war. We all want the war to stop, but there’s no guarantees...” – Mike Lyons, 11:45

• He doubts Russia will genuinely accept any deal as written and sees the arrangement as a likely prelude to future conflict—a setup for “round two.”

Comparative Dangers with Korea

• Co-host points out that unlike Korea’s DMZ and robust defenses, the Ukraine arrangement would weaken Ukrainian security, making future Russian aggression more likely.

  “This is calling for Ukraine to more or less disarm...It wouldn't take 10 minutes for Putin to violate the agreement and...take even more land a year or two hence.” – Co-host, 13:37

• Lyons calls for NATO to enforce a “security umbrella” or risk perpetual instability; suggests air defenses or a no-fly zone, but acknowledges this could escalate conflict (14:05).
• He references 1938 appeasement and its failures, arguing that such “freezes” often breed further war instead of preventing it.

Battlefield Technology & the Future of War

• Notably, Lyons highlights that Russia and Ukraine are now at technological parity with drones, emphasizing the need for U.S. innovation and adaptation in future conflicts.

  “The Russians have caught up with the Ukrainians when it comes to their drone technology...We've got to leapfrog this technology...look over the horizon...” – Mike Lyons, 12:53

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NOTABLE QUOTES & TIMESTAMPS

• “This is a military target...and destroyed means destroyed.” – Mike Lyons, 04:15
• “We're not going to target sole survivors waving their hands in the water...Especially with a Hellfire missile.” – Mike Lyons, 05:42
• “The people that are on these missions are professional, they're doing things exactly by the book.” – Mike Lyons, 08:27
• “It’s a freeze...classic trading land for...immediate relief...but there’s no guarantees...” – Mike Lyons, 11:45
• “This is calling for Ukraine to more or less disarm...It wouldn't take 10 minutes for Putin to violate the agreement...” – Co-host, 13:37
• “The Russians have caught up with the Ukrainians when it comes to their drone technology...” – Mike Lyons, 12:53

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IMPORTANT SEGMENT TIMESTAMPS

• Background on Venezuela strikes and political controversy: 01:39–03:24
• Mike Lyons’ assessment of military protocols and legality: 03:24–05:27
• War crimes precedent and context: 05:27–06:54
• Analysis of political motives behind controversy: 06:54–08:05
• Professionalism in U.S. military operations: 08:05–09:27
• Ukraine “armistice” analysis and comparison to Korea: 11:30–14:51

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FINAL THOUGHTS

Mike Lyons delivers a forceful, nuanced perspective, distinguishing political posturing from military professionalism. The episode underscores the complexity of modern warfare, the perils of politicizing military action, and the immense challenge of crafting viable, lasting peace in geopolitically fraught regions like Ukraine. The Armstrong & Getty team aims to clarify, not sensationalize, these issues, offering listeners both sober analysis and a sense of the high stakes involved.

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Transcript

[Podcast Host]

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[Mike Lyons]

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[Co-host]

When and.

[Mike Lyons]

You know, what orders were given. I think all the, all the particulars.

[Co-host 2]

You want to know what the facts.

[Mike Lyons]

Are and then you want to compare that with the relevant and figure out, you know, procedurally, you know, what's the, you know, the correct lawful way to do things and determine whether or not everything was followed.

[Co-host 2]

Of course we're talking about the second strike on the boat. Turns out second, third and fourth. Maybe strikes on the boat off the coast of Venezuela and whether or not Pete Hegseth ordered it or not, and.

[Co-host]

Exactly what was ordered, when, by whom and whether it was legal. It's worth noting that voice you heard was Senator John Thune, the Republican leader of the Senate.

[Co-host 2]

The very latest is from the New York Times, citing five U.S. officials today that Hegseth called for the original strike but did not specify what should happen if survivors remained. And then Admiral Frank Bradley, who you've now heard his name a lot, ultimately signed off on the initial strike and several follow up strikes that killed 11 people. Okay.

[Co-host]

Interesting. To gain a little perspective, we have invited on the terrific Mike Lyons, military analyst, who is also, I was happy to see, writing for Real Clear Defense, including a great piece about the possible Ukraine deal, which we'll touch on in a minute. But first, Mike, welcome. How are you?

[Mike Lyons]

Hey, good morning, guys. Thanks for having me back.

[Co-host]

Trust you and the family. Had a great Thanksgiving. Good to talk to you.

[Mike Lyons]

Yeah, it was good. I didn't have my son home and my daughter home, but hopefully we'll get him at Christmas time at this point. So. Looking forward to that.

[Co-host]

Onto that part of life. Yeah. So, Mike, let's talk a little bit about your impressions of the, you know, what is known thus far about the alleged targeting of survivors. What do you think?

[Mike Lyons]

Yeah, you know, so I avoided this story for a while because I just thought of it as 100% politics. That video that was released I guess 10 days ago, almost two weeks ago by the congressmen and senators over, you know, not find, not obeying legal orders. I thought that pierced this veil between the military and the civilians like I've never seen before and set this path on to where I think we are today. And the fact that this mission is being so scrutinized because I can give you multiple examples of previous missions that and people have testified in front of Congress about these kinds of double taps that we've done in the past, but for now, it's now reached this hyperbolic boiling point over what went on here.

[Co-host 2]

Well, let's make sure we understand what you're saying there. Are you saying the sort of thing that is being alleged here happens regularly?

[Mike Lyons]

Well, no. First of all, nobody in the military is committing war crimes, which is where this has gone to. It's gone to, you know, we're murdering people that are hanging off of know ship parts in the Caribbean or the Pacific or wherever the mission was. I mean, you know, it's not like Robinson Crusoe or Rose hanging off the side of the Titanic here. I mean, it's insane that we're still having this conversation. This is a military target that the initial target was approved legally and the target is to be destroyed. And destroyed means destroyed. And so if the first target hits and there are still survivors and there's still a target in the water, well, those survivors were still part of the original target to begin with. So they are legal targets as well. But this is all about context. It's all about what people want to view and how they want to see this. And from my perspective, it's a Shame. Now, we've seen the Secretary of Defense throw this over to the SOCOM commander and this admiral now will testify in front of Congress. But these missions go on all the time. They're approved legal. And once they are are approved legal and they start, it's pretty hard to bring that Hellfire missile back.

[Co-host]

So there's a pretty good history, including the Nuremberg trials of prosecutions for targeting survivors of an attack on a ship who no longer posed any threat. Are you saying this doesn't apply here or that's wrong or what?

[Mike Lyons]

Yeah, I don't know enough about it. I'd have to see a lot more, but sure, we're not going to target sole survivors waving their hands in the water, let's say. Right. Especially with a Hellfire missile. And again, I don't know what visual is on them with SEAL Team Six close to them. I mean, there's just so much information that needs to come out that would figure out whether or not. I mean, I saw this one report that said maybe they thought that there was another boat in the area and this boat could have came and picked up some of the cargo of this ship. I don't know. Again, I haven't seen the battle damage assessment or anything, but all I know is that so many different opinions are being layered into this contextually that is now clouded it to the point of we don't. It's going to get this mission accomplished of stopping what they're trying to do. I think it's a pure political situation. The Democrats don't want anything to do with what Trump is doing in the Caribbean. I think he needs to say what that strategy is. I still don't know what that is as well. But this is not the way to do it, to use the military because basically if he's going to accuse Hegseth of a war crime, you're going to accuse him of war crime. You're accusing everybody to pull the trigger all the way down to who fired that missile.

[Co-host]

Okay, just for the record, obviously, you know, we're not engaging in hyperbole or trying to cloud new waters. In fact, we're trying to do just the opposite and help people understand what are the actual issues going on here.

[Mike Lyons]

Yeah, so, yeah, no, I don't think you are. This is. Again, I avoided this just for this reason. I think it's more political. I think it's a shame that we're at this place that now the military is going to be questioned about this going forward. We're going to drag this admiral into this political hearing. And this is all about getting Secretary Hegseth, frankly, from my perspective and interesting. So it just seems too close to the video that was released 10 days ago to have this situation come up right now.

[Co-host 2]

Yeah, we wanted. We wondered about that yesterday. The timing seems pretty suspicious.

[Mike Lyons]

And then the initial Washington Post article now is proven wrong. When the New York Times is throwing the Washington Post off under the bus over there, then, you know, something is up.

[Co-host 2]

So, so is your take. And I just want to make sure I completely understand what you're saying is that we are entering into getting way too lawyerly on this sort of thing or much more lawyerly than we usually are in reality, you know, in a war situation.

[Mike Lyons]

Well, my take is that I think they decided that these are legal targets, and they are. They're military targets as they've been declared narco terrorists and enemies of the state. And each one is evaluated separately with regard to how they're going to take it out and what they'll want to do and what the definition of destroyed means. And I think that once the initial shot was fired, then. And if that was determined legal, then any shot fired after it is determined legal as well. Again, I got to think there's not a video and audio of Hegsett standing up saying kill them all and all these other things that are coming out of this. I mean, it's just not the case. The people. You know, I had a chance to talk to some of the former JSOC commanders the last few days, and they wanted me to reiterate to everybody that the people that are on these missions are professional there doing things exactly by the book. And if they thought for one second that that was an illegal target or they were survivors, and the fact that they thought that the target wasn't destroyed, they wouldn't have fired again. Why didn't a couple weeks later we turned two people back over to the host country? Why did that happen? Well, they must have thought that situation was different from this. I'm sure that would be explained in the Senate Armed Services Committee. But the professionals in the military are looking at every single aspect, and there's just no way they were going to fire on a target that wasn't legal.

[Co-host]

All right, well said. We will wait for more facts to come out.

[Co-host 2]

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[Mike Lyons]

Shh.

[Podcast Host]

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[Co-host]

Now to your piece about the still taking shape Ukraine deal. I thought the way you framed it was so interesting that it's not exactly a peace treaty. It's more a Korean style armistice or freeze. Tell us about that.

[Mike Lyons]

Yeah, it's a freeze. And you know it's a classic trading land for some kind of freedom or immediate relief from stopping the war. We all want the war to stop, but there's no guarantees of what specifically what that means without NATO being involved, for example. I still don't believe Russia will accept anything, any peace agreement or any agreement that they come to right now anyway. And I'll kind of put this out preemptively because it's going to force the United States to try to create more leverage at some point. But if they did accept what's currently on the table right now, all it does is it's going to set up round two at some point. I mean, it's appeasement to try to stop a war. 1938, let's say that was kind of a peace appeasement to try to keep a war from happening. This is the flips it on its head. It's Korea, 1953 in the same regard, that will create a DMZ and will create this, this line, but it can always be restarted. And I just don't believe this is good for the long term of Eastern Europe. And I don't think it's in the long term interest for the United States.

[Co-host 2]

Well, we were wondering yesterday, why would Putin quit? If you're Russia with Russia's goals, would you keep prosecuting the war?

[Mike Lyons]

Exactly. Not for one second would I quit. So that's the thing. And the battlefield math has not changed. There's nothing differently on the battlefield. In fact, the Russians have caught up with the Ukrainians when it comes to their drone technology. It's incredible. The fiber optic drones that are being used right now and they're tethered and they're ubiquitous to the weather and they're not impervious to electronic warfare. We need to be paying close attention. I know we are at the military academy of this because we've got to leapfrog this technology. We can't be satisfied with what's good enough on the battlefield right now. We've got to be looking over the horizon and figuring out what it's going to take, what the drone technology looks like on the next battlefield, because right now it's very, very advanced right now. And the Russians have caught right up with Ukrainians on it.

[Co-host]

Right. And final point on the comparison with Korea, the thing that bothers me as somebody has been standing up for Ukraine is that unlike the Korean deal where you got your demilitarized zone, but then everybody's armed to the teeth on both sides of it. This is calling for Ukraine to more or less disarm, to weaken their own military, become a just. It wouldn't take 10 minutes for Putin to violate the agreement and beat the hell out of Ukraine, take even more land a year or two hence.

[Mike Lyons]

Exactly. They would have interior lines. They would take land that they haven't conquered yet. You know, in Korea, we poured in 45,000 troops. There's 10,000 artillery rounds, you know, targeting each other. Right now. That's a tinderbox on some level, and we've talked about that before. But this, this in particular would be. It would clearly lead to a round two at some point, unless NATO, for example, provide an air defense umbrella over Ukraine that guaranteed all missiles coming from Russia would be shot down. Perhaps a no fly zone, although a no fly zone is technically an act of war. But. And what are the troops? Where do the troops come from? So NATO has to be in the game or NATO countries have got to be in the game from a security perspective or to exact your point, they would roll right through Ukraine once they were disarmed.

[Co-host]

Military analyst Mike Lyons will post his piece forum real clear defensemstrongeghety.com Mike, really interesting perspective. Thanks so much for the time.

[Mike Lyons]

Yeah, great, guys. Thanks for having me. And thanks for having this kind of conversation because I'm not sure other people are having it. And I think it's important to recognize that our military is professional and not murdering people in the water. I just think that. I just want to make that point clear.

[Co-host]

Yeah, we'd probably be better off pandering, but we're too stubborn to do it. So anyway, thanks, Mike. Great to talk to you.

[Mike Lyons]

Great guys. Great out here.

[Co-host 2]

So do these two things go together, though? That our military is professional and we're not in the business of murdering people in the water and things aren't quite as delineated as you think they are in TV shows or whatever around these issues.

[Co-host]

Well, and to what extent is a drug cartel an enemy force? And to what extent are we at war? Because that's there's an underlying set of questions before we even get to the specifics.

[Mike Lyons]

Armstrong and Gettysburg.

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[Mike Lyons]

Shh.

[Podcast Host]

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[Mike Lyons]

Guaranteed human.