DOGE Lives On! Congressman Tom McClintock Talks to A&G

Summary

Armstrong & Getty On Demand

Episode: DOGE Lives On! Congressman Tom McClintock Talks to A&G
Date: July 12, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth conversation with Congressman Tom McClintock (CA-5), Chair of the Immigration Subcommittee, frequent A&G guest, and noted government waste watchdog. The discussion ranges from an assessment of the now defunct DOGE initiative for government waste reduction, to debates on housing policy, immigration (particularly sanctuary cities), and a passionate defense of American exceptionalism versus socialism. The episode is marked by McClintock’s pointed humor, historical references, and candid critique of government inefficiency.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Reflections on 30 Years with Congressman McClintock

• The hosts and McClintock reflect humorously and nostalgically about their long history together.
• McClintock recounts a memorable saying from Barry Goldwater Jr.:
  • "Life was like a roll of toilet paper. The closer you got to the end, the faster it goes." (McClintock, 01:21)

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2. The End of DOGE and Its Legacy

• What Was DOGE?
  A temporary agency (inspired by Elon Musk and others) targeting government waste, fraud, and bureaucracy.
• Results and Challenges:
  • DOGE documented $215B in federal savings—“That’s $1,700 per household. But the work… is now being carried on by the Department of Justice and all the other agencies.” (McClintock, 03:04)
  • Musk's initial savings target was $1T; McClintock believes that was possible given the scale of fraud now being investigated.
  • Fraud investigation staffing in Medicaid was highlighted:
    • At Biden’s entry: 80 fraud investigators for a trillion-dollar program, slashed to 8 (Becerra’s HHS tenure), now ramped up to ~1200.
    • Return on investment: “For every dollar that they’re spending on fraud detection, they’re producing about $22 in savings. And… Doge’s former acting director, Amy Gleason, is heading up that effort at CMS. So Dodge is living on through these agencies.” (McClintock, 03:59)
• Memorable Moment:
  • McClintock’s sarcasm on California waste:
    • "California was saying, you know, hold my EBT card." (Armstrong, 05:18)

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3. Government Waste & Bureaucratic Culture

• McClintock underscores the systemic nature of bureaucratic inefficiency and the importance of government restraint:
  • “That’s bureaucratic behavior… The founders had it right—the best way to deal with it is to provide for limited government and to trust the people… rather than having the government try to run their lives for them.” (McClintock, 04:41)

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4. Housing Policy & The "21st Century Road to Housing Act" (06:29)

• Legislation Overview:
  Meant to address affordability by limiting corporate home ownership and regulating housing more stringently.
• McClintock’s Critique:
  • Calls the bill counterproductive:
    • "The Wall Street Journal's done several editorials against it... all the additional regulations... actually [are] going to drive up the cost of housing..." (06:45)
  • Notes that restricting corporate ownership may slightly reduce housing prices, but will raise rental costs.
  • Blames high regulation, restrictive zoning, excessive fees, and over-permitting in California for stark price differences:
    • “There were more housing permits granted in Dallas and Houston last year than were granted in the entire state of California combined. The median price of a home in Texas is $360,000. In California, it’s $910,000.” (McClintock, 07:36)
  • Also blames the impact of illegal immigration on demand.

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5. Sanctuary Cities, Immigration, and Tragic Outcomes

• Legislative Push:
  McClintock is leading a bill to preempt state "sanctuary" laws, allowing local sheriffs to cooperate with ICE, and enable "angel families" to sue over harm from ICE non-cooperation.
  • Explains:
    • “Sanctuary laws… are specifically aimed at protecting criminal illegal aliens from being deported. Last year, sanctuary jurisdictions in the United States refused to honor 17,864 ICE detainer requests. A quarter... in California.” (McClintock, 09:27)
• Heartbreaking Testimonies:
  • Shares the story of Sheridan Gorman’s mother, whose daughter was killed by an illegal immigrant released by sanctuary policy:
    • “The ranking Democrat... told her to her face… we had better things to do than another hearing on the sanctuary policies that killed her daughter. Can you believe that?” (McClintock, 10:43)
  • Details another case: Stephanie Minter in Fairfax County.
• Memorable Quotes:
  • Armstrong on ideology:
    • "I don't know how you sleep at night. That's the weird thing about ideology... where you think, you know what. I believe in diversity. So I'm gonna let criminals back onto the street. I just, I don't get it." (09:52)
  • McClintock on sanctuary policies:
    • "These stories keep piling up and they're going to pile up until we deal with these sanctuary jurisdictions." (12:00)

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6. American Exceptionalism, Socialism, & The Founding

• With the 250th Independence Day as backdrop, McClintock offers a passionate defense of America's founding and a critique of socialism:
  • “What we're facing is a fundamental question between two antithetical principles that simply can't coexist: Freedom and socialism.” (McClintock, 13:01)
  • Ties socialism and slavery to the same root:
    • "Slavery and socialism spring from exactly the same rotten principle that Lincoln described as the same spirit that says, you work and toil and make bread and I will eat it." (13:08)
  • Explains the mutual benefit of capitalism vs. the coercion of socialism:
    • “The only possible way to succeed in a free capitalist society is that you have to figure out what somebody else needs and how to get it for them better than they can get it for themselves... Socialism is taking what one person has earned... and giving it to somebody who hasn't.” (13:36)
    • Cites Milton Friedman:
      • "You can't say government's going to help one person without... saying it's going to hurt somebody else. But what you've really done is you rob both Peter and Paul of a dollar's worth of incentive to help each other.” (14:05)
    • Emphasizes capitalism requires consent, socialism requires force.
• Armstrong praises McClintock’s explanation:
  • “I wish you could get into every school and, and you know, have everybody hear that at least once before they graduate high school.” (15:00)

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Notable Quotes & Meme-Worthy Moments

• Barry Goldwater Jr. (as told by McClintock):
  "Life was like a roll of toilet paper. The closer you got to the end, the faster it goes." (01:21)

• McClintock on bureaucratic waste:
  “You realize they're not very good at running their own lives either is often the case.” (05:15)

• On California government waste:
  "California was saying, you know, hold my EBT card." (Armstrong, 05:18)

• Armstrong on ideology and sanctuary policy:
  "That's the weird thing about ideology that I don't quite get. That you can, like, trump your common sense... I'm gonna let criminals back onto the street. I just, I don't get it." (09:52)

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Important Timestamps

• DOGE’s impact and waste suppression: 02:23 – 05:15
• Shocking Medicaid fraud investigation numbers: 03:03 – 03:57
• Bureaucratic inefficiency and founding principles: 04:41 – 05:15
• California vs. Texas housing statistics: 07:36 – 08:20
• Sanctuary cities and poignant testimonies: 09:27 – 12:04
• Explanation of American exceptionalism, critique of socialism: 13:01 – 15:15

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Tone and Takeaways

This conversation balances deep policy discussion, candid critique, and moments of humor and passion. McClintock is sarcastic and blunt on government dysfunction, emotional and moralistic on immigration and sanctuary cities, and almost professorial when defending classic American/constitutional values. The episode is a primer on the real-world consequences of abstract policies, grounded in both data and personal stories.

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For listeners wanting a clear-sighted conservative critique of bureaucracy, housing regulation, and sanctuary policies—with a rousing defense of American capitalism versus socialism—this episode is essential and accessible.

Transcript

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[Tom McClintock]

here's Armstrong and Getty.

[Jack Armstrong]

We've been Talking to Tom McClintock for 25 years, something like that, on the Armstrong and Getty show, going way back to when we were all much younger and he was a just a California assemblyman and then eventually making it into the Congress of the United States of America. Currently representing the 5th district of California, he's the chair of the immigration subcommittee. Tom McClintock, welcome back to the Armstrong and Getty Show.

[Tom McClintock]

Well, thanks for having me back. And you realize it's been closer to 30 years now, Jack.

[Jack Armstrong]

Really?

[Tom McClintock]

Yeah, man, I hate doing that math, but there it is.

[Jack Armstrong]

I know the way time moves when you get older is shocking.

[Tom McClintock]

Barry Goldwater Jr. Once told me that life was like a roll of toilet paper. The closer you got to the end, the faster it goes.

[Jack Armstrong]

That certain? Absolutely true. I'm going to give you a little warning that you can work on in your subconscious before we do these other topics because it was driving me crazy over the 4th of July, 250th anniversary. Some of the stuff flying around on social media and on cable news of people that hate this country and think it's, you know, a force for evil because you're so good at your up with the United States and, and why we're a good country stuff. I'm going to hit you with that before we let you go today. But starting here, Doge, I guess officially wrapped up Elon Musk and others efforts to try to rein in government spending and waste and all that sort of stuff is, is how successful were they? Why was it so hard for them to do anything about government waste? We've had stories exploding just in the last couple of weeks in the California Post and other places about the amount of waste of federal dollars in California. Where are we on that story?

[Tom McClintock]

Well, again, that's largely because of the work that Doge did, turning over rocks and shining a light on the bureaucracy and watching the bureaucrats scurry for cover. It was always slated to expire on July 4th of 2026. It was never to be a permanent agency. You know, Musk thought that they could eliminate a trillion dollars in waste. And it's possible. When you look at the Medicaid, hospice, daycare, student aid, dei, and other frauds that are now being fully investigated by the Department of Justice, I think he was in the ballpark. They documented savings about $215 billion. That's nothing to sneeze at.

[Jack Armstrong]

No, it is not.

[Tom McClintock]

$1,700 per household. But the work they did is now being carried on by the Department of Justice and all the other agencies. Just to give you one example, Mehmet Oz told us recently that when Biden entered office, there were just 80 fraud investigators in the entire Medicaid program. That's nearly a trillion, doll.

[Jack Armstrong]

That is incredible.

[Tom McClintock]

It gets worse. Biden's HHS secretary, one Javier Becerra, who's now waiting to be anointed governor of California. When he came in, he cut that number to just eight.

[Jack Armstrong]

Well, Oz is just. We got it. We gotta. We gotta spend a little time on this. There were eight people overseeing the spending of how much money to make sure there was no fraud.

[Tom McClintock]

Not overseeing, investigating fraud. Eight fraud investigators.

[Jack Armstrong]

That's amazing.

[Tom McClintock]

But now that's being amped up to about 1200. And they're currently estimating that for every dollar that they're spending on fraud detection, they're producing about $22 in savings. And by the way, guess who's heading up that effort at cms? Doge's former acting director, Amy Gleason. So. So Dodge is leading, is living on through these agencies.

[Jack Armstrong]

The. It's amazing. And conservatives know this and also know that the only way to keep government from wasting money is to not give it to them in the first place. That's really your only hope. But it's amazing how freely governments at all levels are willing to waste taxpayers money.

[Tom McClintock]

Yeah, well, that's bureaucratic behavior. It's in the system itself. And as you said, the founders had it right. The best way to deal with it is to provide for limited government and to trust the people with the judgment over how to run their own lives, rather than having the government try to run their lives for them. I mean, you know, I've been in this business a long time, and you know, these, these leftists who think they're so good at running their own lives that they're also entitled to run everybody else's. You get to know them, you realize they're not very good at running their

[Jack Armstrong]

own lives either is often the case.

[HomeServe Announcer]

Yeah.

[Jack Armstrong]

And you know, when the story exploded in Minnesota with the waste, a lot of people knew and it turned out to be true. California was saying, you know, hold my EBT card. It turned out California is going to be once we uncover all this. And federal taxpayers should be angry all across the country about this spending.

[Tom McClintock]

Oh, sure, because it's their money and it's disappearing into this gigantic kleptocracy. And for. No, there's no excuse for it. You know, California's state auditor looked at all of these fraudulent hospice programs. They actually produced a map of this huge concentration of hospice agencies in Los Angeles. Took that to Governor Newsom and nothing happened. Same story with the whistleblowers in Minnesota. Took it to Tim Waltz. He did absolutely nothing. Now, I will say in defense of the hospice providers in Los Angeles, not a single hospice patient died. So they're that good.

[Jack Armstrong]

Fantastic. Switching topics because I know you have a limited time. 21st century road to Housing Act. Affordability is the word that's on everybody. Lip everybody's lips, it seems to be in both parties. What is the 21st century road to Housing act and how could that help people?

[Tom McClintock]

Well, I don't think it's going to help people. In fact, the Wall Street Journal's done several editorials against it, pointing out that all of the additional bureau you see that they're creating all the additional regulations that actually going to drive up the cost of housing. The most popular feature of it is that it prohibits corporations from buying homes and then renting them out. Well, that's about 1% of the market. And it will slightly reduce the price of housing, but at the same time it will slightly increase the price of rentals because you're reducing the supply of rentals. Increasing supply of housing, decreasing supply of rentals. That doesn't accomplish anything. Look, if you want to know everything there is about what's wrong with with housing prices and how government. Reagan was right. Government's not the solution to these problems. Government is the problem. But one statistic tells you a lot. There were more housing permits granted in Dallas and Houston last year and were granted in the entire state of California combined. The median price of a home in Texas is $360,000. In California it's $910,000. We've done it to ourselves by imposing exp mandates on construction, limiting the permits to be issued, charging exorbitant fees when they do issue permits, restricting the land that's available for Housing, flooding the market with subsidies. And by the way, the demand pressure of adding 10 million illegal aliens to the market during the Biden years didn't help either.

[Jack Armstrong]

Since you brought up illegal aliens and illegal immigration, where are we on sanctuary cities? Because I know you're on the immigration subcommittee, you're the chair actually. Where's the whole sanctuary city story?

[Tom McClintock]

Well, we've got a bill that will preempt sanctuary jurisdictions and allow the local sheriffs, who desperately want, many of them, desperately want to cooperate with ICE but are forbidden by state, state law. We preempt those state laws, allow them to enter into direct agreements with ICE for enforcement, and it also allows the angel families to sue ICE jurisdictions who recklessly released criminal alien rather than turning them over to ICE for deportation. I mean, people have to understand these sanctuary laws do not. This is not general immigration enforcement. They're specifically aimed at protecting criminal illegal aliens from being deported. So instead of turning over prisoners in their custody to ICE for deportation, these sanctuary jurisdictions instead release them back into our communities. And you heard of the countless tragedies that resulted. Last year, sanctuary jurisdictions in the United States refused to honor 17,864 ICE detainer requests. And a quarter of the releases, by the way, were in California. Now these were criminals in custody whom federal law requires be deported. Instead, the sanctuaries release them back into our community.

[Jack Armstrong]

God, that's just, that's unconscionable. I don't know how you sleep at night. That's the weird thing about ideology that I don't quite get. That you can like trump your common sense where you think, you know what. I believe in diversity. So I'm gonna let criminals back onto the street. I just, I don't get it.

[Tom McClintock]

Well, we just had appear before our committee the mother of Sheridan Gorman. She's the 18 year old college student in Chicago. She went out for a night to look at the northern lights with her friends. She was shot in the back of the head by an illegal alien who had been arrested in Chicago. Should have been turned over to ice, instead was released back in the community. That's the reason she's dead. Her mother came to testify. It was heartbreaking testimony, but the ranking democrat on our committee told her to her face, and by the way, there are probably a dozen other angel families in the audience, told her to her face that we had better things to do than another hearing on the sanctuary policies that killed her daughter. Can you believe that?

[Jack Armstrong]

It's just, it's.

[Tom McClintock]

I.

[Jack Armstrong]

Like I said, I don't know how some of these people sleep at night. I don't know. I don't know how they justify this to themselves.

[Tom McClintock]

Well, we had it. We had another hearing. The mother, Stephanie Minter, was there. She was a young lady stabbed to death by an illegal alien that Fairfax county had in custody for other crimes. Had an ICE detainer, a request to turn over to ice instead released this murderer back into the community where he murdered Stephanie Mitter. The awoke sheriff who had released her said that, well, they just didn't have money in their budget to cooperate with ice. And I said, all you had to do was make a phone call, tell ICE you had this guy in your custody so they could come pick him up. They've got an $82 million budget. But she couldn't spare a dime to call ICE to pick up this dangerous criminal. She released him back onto the streets, and Stephanie Minter's dead as a result. I mean, these stories keep piling up and they're going to pile up until we deal with these sanctuary jurisdictions.

[Jack Armstrong]

Yeah. Making the transition to final topic here, I'm starting to believe that there is something like to this idea of a woke mind virus that fits in with Marxism or something where it just, it's like a mental disease. Speaking of which, I was following the national debate over the last weekend, 250th anniversary of independence Day. All the great stuff that I was coming across with our history and our founding and why America is an exceptional country. Then you had the pushback from some people in the crowd, whether it's Mayor Mamdani in New York or others floating around on Twitter or whatever, on how the world would be better without the United States and we're a force for evil and this and that. And you're one of my favorite amateur historians when it comes to the founding and what's good about America. Hit us with a little spiel of why America is an exceptional country and good for the world.

[Tom McClintock]

Well, what we're facing is a fundamental question between two antithetical principles that simply can't co exist. Freedom and socialism. We had that problem before, more than a hundred years ago, when the question was freedom or slavery. And if you think about it, slavery and socialism spring from exactly the same rotten principle that Lincoln described as the same spirit that says, you work and toil and make bread and I will eat it. So you hear from people like Tim Walsh, well, one man's socialism is another man's neighborliness. And you hear all capitalism, that's just dog eat dog, selfishness looking out for yourself. Socialism is sharing and caring. They have that completely backwards. The only possible way to succeed in a free capitalist society is that you have to figure out what somebody else needs and how to get it for them better than they can get it for themselves. It might be mowing their lawn, it might be doing brain surgery on their child, but you have to help somebody else. Socialism is taking what one person has earned by helping another and giving it to somebody who has it. It's true. If I take a dollar from Peter and give it to Paul, Paul's got an extra dollar that spend. Paul's better off. We've now hurt Peter to the same degree. That's what Milton Friedman warned. You can't say government's going to help one person without the same breath saying it's going to hurt somebody else. But what you've really done is you rob both Peter and Paul of a dollar's worth of incentive to help each other. Paul no longer needs to help Peter. He already has his dollar. Peter no longer has to help Paul because he doesn't profit from it anymore. And the glue that holds a civilization together breaks apart. And the other thing is you need tons of force in a social assistant because you have to compel people to act against their own interest and judgment. Capitalism requires no force because people make their own decisions. So that's that. That's the great question that we're facing. And that's the question that's going to be resolved, I think, over the next several elections.

[Jack Armstrong]

I've heard that story before, and I love it from you. The Peter Pay and Paul thing. I wish you could get into every school and, and you know, have everybody hear that at least once before they graduate high school. He's from the fifth district of California. He's their congressman. Tom McClintock. Thanks for your time today, Tom.

[Tom McClintock]

My pleasure, Jack. Thanks for having me.

[Jack Armstrong]

Boy, and that stuff about the force required to make socialism work, that's where you end up with the millions dead. But anyway, we'll be plenty talking about that plenty over the next, you know, days, weeks, years and centuries probably. I want to tell you about rough greens, which is a good idea for your dog. It's something you sprinkle on your dog's food. You stay with your dog's food. You just add, add more nutrition to it. All natural, made in the USA and over 20 vitamins and minerals. We're going to get to get live probiotics, enzymes, omega oils, that sort of stuff. Why not try it? It's free. All you do is pay the shipping. Get a free Jump Start trial bag today. When you cover the shipping, go to roughgreens.com and use a discount code Armstrong that's R U F F greens.com discount code Armstrong Rough Greens makes any dog food better. I knew Tom would be good on the whole what's good with America versus Socialism, et cetera. Again, you can graduate high school and never hear a spiel at all about why socialism is bad and capitalism is good, even though that's the system we have. Stunning. Okay, a lot more on the way. Stay here.

[Tom McClintock]

Armstrong and Gettysburg A burst pipe, A

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