Free Speech is in Trouble--Globally.  Greg Lukianoff Talks to A&G

Summary

Armstrong & Getty On Demand
Episode: "Free Speech is in Trouble--Globally. Greg Lukianoff Talks to A&G"
Date: April 10, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Joe Getty of the Armstrong & Getty Show welcomes Greg Lukianoff, President and CEO of the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression (FIRE), for a compelling discussion on the current global crisis facing free speech. The conversation spans the erosion of free speech rights in Western democracies, the culture of censorship in the U.S., cancel culture, the influence of critical theory, threats on college campuses, and practical steps for defending free expression.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Dire State of Free Speech—Globally and in the U.S.

[03:44–05:38]

• Global Decline:
  • Lukianoff opens by stressing that free speech is “in trouble globally.”
  • Totalitarian states like China, Iran, and Russia are increasing their grip via surveillance and AI.
  • Formerly free societies such as the UK and the EU are now using hate speech laws—“arresting something like 12,000 people a year in Britain now for essentially hate speech.”
• Western Backslide:
  • Canada and Ireland have considered laws making hate speech a potential life sentence offense.
  • The U.S. remains unique (“the only country left that really cares about free speech...down to our core”), but Lukianoff warns, “We’re blowing it as well due to partisan politics.”
• Generational Divide:
  • Lukianoff notes older generations across the spectrum understand the value of free speech, but worries that commitment is vanishing among the young.

Quote:

“Here I’m afraid we’re blowing it as well due to partisan politics. ... The only way you really prove that you care about free speech is not defending the free speech that you already agree with, but the stuff that you actually disdain.”
—Greg Lukianoff [04:08]

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2. Free Speech’s Role as a Check on Power

[06:38–07:42]

• Bulwark Against Extremes:
  • Getty considers how free speech is a defense against “any out of control cause or philosophy.”
• Founders’ Wisdom:
  • Lukianoff connects this to lessons from the founders, who understood the dangers of governmental rationalization for censorship.
  • He stresses the First Amendment’s design to shield truth from power-grabbing authorities.
  • Current threats come “by a death of a thousand cuts.”

Quote:

“Power will always rationalize its ability to be like, I should be able to shut up people who really piss me off. … But we’re undermining [the First Amendment] by a death of a thousand cuts at the moment.”
—Greg Lukianoff [06:38]

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3. Cancel Culture—Definition and Dangers

[09:30–11:56]

• Defining Cancel Culture:
  • Lukianoff explains the blurry line: Yes, private companies may fire employees for speech, but a climate where “you can have an opinion or a job, but not both” is deeply unhealthy.
• Loss of Pluralism:
  • American idioms like “everyone’s entitled to their opinion” and “to each their own” expressed vital democratic values—now losing ground.
• Washington Post Example:
  • Lukianoff cites a reporter almost fired for “retweeting one slightly—very slightly—edgy joke” as a litmus test.
  • Calls for a culture that refrains from punishing minor transgressions.

Quote:

“Do you want to live in the kind of country where you can have an opinion or a job, but not both? ... It’s a free country—we said all the time—are really important, small-d democratic values.”
—Greg Lukianoff [09:53]

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4. Political Disagreement as Moral Sin

[11:56–12:28]

• Changing Attitudes:
  • Getty cites the shift: “Political disagreement is increasingly treated as a serious moral offense rather than a simple difference of opinion.”
  • Lukianoff agrees: “That really could be any of us, come to think of it.”

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5. The Campus Crisis—How Higher Ed Abandoned Free Speech

[12:28–14:21]

• Student Intolerance:
  • Lukianoff: About 70% of college students think professors should be reported for “offensive speech”—often facts rather than insults.
  • The rise in students policing not just hate but factual debate reflects a deep philosophical shift.
  • Examples: Professors faulted for stating “biological sex is real” or citing reputable academic studies.
• Cancel Culture Roots:
  • FIRE’s shift from focusing on campus (“foundation for individual rights in education”) to broader society in 2020 stemmed from the pandemic's “free speech disaster.”

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6. Ideological Origins—Critical Theory’s Influence

[17:43–20:49]

• Roots in Critical Theory:
  • Getty connects campus censorship, microaggressions, and “banning” hate speech to critical theory, specifically French philosophers like Foucault and Fanon.
• Marcuse & Repressive Tolerance:
  • Lukianoff adds Herbert Marcuse’s explicit argument: free speech should only apply to the left, not the right.
  • Warns that much anti-speech activism stems from these “old European style, Frankfurt School left” traditions—often called "liberal" today.
  • Argues that “center left and center right have more in common” than with ideological extremes.

Quote:

“This sort of... old European style, Frankfurt School left that is very hostile to free speech, but calls itself liberal. … We have to talk back to these people who don’t realize that they're spouting Marcuse and Foucault...”
—Greg Lukianoff [18:37]

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7. Action Plan—How to Defend Free Speech

[20:49–22:20]

• Speak Out for Everyone’s Rights:
  • Supporting organizations like FIRE is one avenue.
  • Most crucial: “When someone gets in trouble for speech you personally disagree with, you do not think they should be fired, you do not think they should be arrested... stand up for them unapologetically.”
• Historical Inspiration:
  • Cites the ACLU’s defense of Nazis in Skokie, Illinois, as a high-water mark of principled free speech defense—“it belongs to everyone or it belongs to no one.”
  • Both Getty and Lukianoff recount personal and family histories shaped by the fundamental American belief in free speech.

Quote:

“Free speech belongs to everyone or it belongs to no one.”
—Greg Lukianoff [21:05]

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Notable Quotes

• On the core free speech challenge:
  “We need people to come together to defend [free speech] for opinions they don’t like, just like we used to in the old days.”
  —Greg Lukianoff [04:08]

• On cancel culture:
  “Do you want to live in the kind of country where you can have an opinion or a job, but not both?”
  —Greg Lukianoff [09:53]

• On defending free speech’s enemies:
  “Free speech belongs to everyone or it belongs to no one.”
  —Greg Lukianoff [21:05]

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Memorable Moments & Segment Timestamps

• Introduction and Lukianoff background: [03:06–03:44]
• Global state of free speech: [04:08–05:38]
• Free speech as a protection against power: [06:38–07:42]
• The pandemic as a turning point and cancel culture rise: [08:08–09:53]
• Defining cancel culture and pluralistic values: [09:53–11:56]
• Political disagreement as moral failing: [11:56–12:28]
• Crisis on college campuses: [12:28–14:21]
• Critical theory’s role in anti-speech activism: [17:43–20:49]
• Action items and personal stories: [20:49–22:20]

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Conclusion

This episode offers a sobering tour of free speech challenges—from authoritarian states to Western democracies, from college campuses to mainstream culture. Greg Lukianoff and Joe Getty urge listeners to defend expression—especially dissent and unpopular speech—before it’s eroded further. Their message is clear: the fight for free speech requires civic courage, moral clarity, and a recommitment to old democratic values in new, uncertain times.

Resources:

• Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression (FIRE): thefire.org
• Greg Lukianoff’s books (notably “Unlearning Liberty,” “Freedom from Speech,” and "The Canceling of the American Mind")

Transcript

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[Joe Getty]

what a pleasure this is to talk about the freedom of speech, the First Amendment, the perhaps most vital principle any self governing people can hold, with Greg Lukianoff of the foundation for Individual Rights and Expression. Greg is actually the President and CEO, also the author of a handful of books that I have really really enjoyed, including Unlearning Liberty, Campus Censorship and the End of American Debate Freedom from Speech. And I really enjoyed a shortish book that'd be a place to start the War on Words Arguments Against Free Speech and why they Fail with Nadine Strossen. Greg, welcome. How are you?

[Greg Lukianoff]

I'm pretty good. Unfortunately, business is booming for First Amendment attorneys these days and that's never a good sign for the country.

[Joe Getty]

Yeah, yeah. And I think both sides indulge too frequently, too easily in let's silence the other guys because we don't like what they say, obviously. How would you characterize these the state of free speech in the US right now? And we'll just go from there.

[Greg Lukianoff]

Well, you know, I want to expand it even from there because I think people really need to get and I want to say this to your entire audience, free speech is in trouble globally. Obviously China and Iran and Russia were not free countries, but the level of totalitarianism that you can deliver with a combination of surveillance and AI is terrifying. The European Union and the UK have completely turned turned around on free speech. They're arresting something like 12,000 people a year in Britain now for essentially hate speech in Britain. I mean, my mother's British. They used to laugh at us for Political correctness here, and now they're enforcing it by law. Canada and Ireland were playing with actually passing a hate speech code that would, that could result in life in prison and even within the U.S. like, we're the only country left that really cares about free speech, you know, down to our core. And here I'm afraid we're blowing it as well due to partisan politics. So I know, like, I'm a Gen Xer people my age and older, whether we're right, left or center, we get freedom of speech. But we need people to come together to defend it for opinions they don't like, just like we used to in the old days. Because the only way you really prove that you care about free speech is not defending the free speech that you already agree with, but it's the stuff that you actually disdain, that that's how you show your commitment.

[Joe Getty]

Precisely. I think we need to teach over and over again that it's the sort of speech that anybody would object to that needs to be protected. Because speech nobody objects to doesn't need protection, you ninnies.

[Greg Lukianoff]

You know, it strikes me, well, except on campus, sometimes something can get you in trouble on campus. Sometimes it's like I don't even understand how people manage to be offended by that.

[Joe Getty]

You know, I want to get to campuses specifically in a minute. But it struck me, as you were describing the global free speech issues, that the motivations behind the cracking down on speech were different in different places. Rampant immigration from the Muslim world in the UK in particular, and Canada is one of the core issues there. Very different issues in the U.S. but the thought that clicked in my brain and give me long enough, I'll come up with the obvious, is that the right to free speech is a bulwark against like any out of control cause or philosophy.

[Greg Lukianoff]

It absolutely is. Because here's the thing, you know, our founding fathers were brilliant. They were basically proto neuroscientists. Like, they understood that we, our brains are incredibly good at rationalizing our way into something that suits our interests, that we can, you know, kid ourselves. We're actually thinking of all humankind. And power always wants greater control over speech and even more dramatically, truth. And this is one of the reasons why we have the protections of the First Amendment. That's why we have an establishment clause, for that matter. These are things that our system of government really understood. But power will always rationalize its ability to be like, I should be able to shut up people who really piss me off. You know, like, I should be able to go after that Speech, and here's my high minded sounding reason to do it. And having something as powerful as the First Amendment to say, no, we're not doing this easily. Year has been one of our real saving graces, but we're undermining it by a death of a thousand cuts at the moment.

[Joe Getty]

Well, and as you mentioned, it is highly disturbing that a lot of the younger generations have, and this is entirely our fault, have been anesthetized into either not noticing the incursions in free speech or encouraging them. The COVID period was an absolute nightmare, in my opinion. The exercise of government control, quashing of dissent and that sort of thing, but

[Greg Lukianoff]

also the cultural aspect of it. So Covid in 2020, fire. You know, my organization, the foundation for Individual Rights and Expression used to be the foundation for individual rights in education because we were focused on the really severe threats to free speech, academic freedom, et cetera in higher ed. But it was 2020 that made us decide that we have to become the foundation for individual rights and expression to defend free speech for everybody, even beyond campus. Because we also saw one government coercion. But even scarier to us in a lot of ways was a lot of Americans saying, I'm going to get you. It was cancel culture. I wrote a book called Canceling of the American Mind about this to demonstrate with data that this really happened. And it was insane because there's still people who are claiming that this didn't happen. No, it was a free speech disaster. Disaster during that time. And we realized that if we have a situation where people really think that you have a right not to be offended and that it's actually noble to censor what you consider to be bad people, we've really fallen astray. So one of the things that makes FIRE different is we don't just fight in court. And believe me, we do fight in court. We are also trying to get people to understand the philosophy of freedom of speech, how to live with it, and all the benefits of it as well. Because we want to make sure we pass this down to our grandkids.

[Joe Getty]

Amen to that. We're talking to Greg Glucianoff from fire. So let's talk a little bit about cancel culture. One of the more interesting conversations I've been following through the last several years is what is quote, unquote, cancel culture? As opposed to the birds of what you say coming home to roost, taking responsibility for what you say. How can you tell if it's quote unquote, cancel culture?

[Greg Lukianoff]

Cancel culture. The thing that lawyers sound so frustrating about Cancel Culture is that because it's about a cultural norm, it has to be a little. A little looser, but really kind of like, what? And I try to get people to think about this in the aggregate, that essentially, yes. Can a private company decide to fire someone because they don't like their expression? Absolutely, they can. And actually, under the First Amendment, I'd fight for the right to do that. But I'm always trying to get people to take a deep breath and ask themselves, do you want to live in the kind of country where you can have an opinion or a job, but not both and rethink that? Because one of the things that really is falling away is this sense of pluralism that essentially it's okay if my pizza boy wants to vote for Trump or Biden. Like, it doesn't. Like, that's fine. I think of these old American idioms that we used to say a lot of times when we were kids that have lost favor and kids today don't know as much, that are as simple as, everyone's entitled to their opinion, to each their own. You know, walk a mile in a man's shoes is kind of saying essentially, essentially the same thing. It's a free country. We said all the time are really important, small d democratic values. And I think that if you're seeing a situation in which someone, you know, like, yeah, sure, someone's being unprofessional in their job, you know, there's no question, you know, you can fire them. But, for example, there was a case at the Washington Post where there was an opinion reporter. He retweeted one slightly. I mean, very slightly edgy joke. Retweeted it. And then, of course, there was this huge, you know, backlash to get him suspended or fired. And I was like, listen, if you want to know what cancel culture and free speech culture look like, what free speech culture looks like is to say, do we really want to punish this Washington Post reporter just for retweeting a joke?

[Joe Getty]

Right? Yeah. Yeah. So it's funny. I wrote down this quote and posted on the studio wall here, and I didn't write who said it. And, God, it could have been you. It might be Peter Boghossian or Jonathan Haidt, I'm not sure. But what they said was, political disagreement is increasingly treated as a serious moral offense rather than a simple difference of opinion. When you see the world that way, punishing someone for holding different views becomes a moral good.

[Greg Lukianoff]

That really could be any of us, come to think of it.

[Joe Getty]

Well, I'm stealing it,

[Greg Lukianoff]

and I hope you will, because we want this to catch on because it really is very much with our own lifetime that we had very different attitudes about free speech as a society. And I will say that the role that K through PhD has played in that erosion is really shameful. So there was someone who wrote recently on Twitter like given. And we are absolutely, we fight people all across the spectrum. We were suing the Trump administration. We're in a lawsuit against Trump himself on free speech grounds. We are the most nonpartisan institution in the country. But someone actually wrote to my co author Ricky Schlott on Twitter of canceling of the American Mind. You know, don't you feel like by comparison, you know, what was happening on college campuses was no big deal or sort of quaint? And I'm like, absolutely not. Have a situation in which people can, I mean, something like 70% of students think their professors should be reported for offensive speech. And when they actually drilled down into what did they mean by offensive speech, it wasn't for sexually harassing students. It was for saying things like biological sex is real. Or, you know, someone who actually would repeat the data of Roland Fryer, you know, from Harvard, who basically pointed out there isn't that much evidence that there's wildly disproportionate shootings of unarmed black people versus white people by police. And now to be clear, Roland Fryer said, actually our overall take is that police shoot too many people in the United States, but that ultimately that disparity isn't there as much. They were basically saying the students themselves were being taught to police factual statements that in some cases are probably true. Right. In order to, in order to achieve something, to protect their ears or something.

[Joe Getty]

Oh, yeah. Well, I think it's more than that. And if you don't mind, we need to take a quick break and follow up on that thought and talk about the philosophy that's driving a lot of what the college kids just think is, you know, outlawing hate speech and objectionable speech. But Greg Luciano for Fire. Greg, great to talk to you. Hang around around just a couple minutes. We'll continue in moments.

[Greg Lukianoff]

Armstrong and Getty.

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[Joe Getty]

We are midway through a conversation With Greg Lukianoff, the president and CEO of the foundation for Individual Rights and Expression and the author of many fine books and co author on that topic. Greg, thanks for hanging around. Really appreciate it.

[Greg Lukianoff]

Yeah, no, I'm always happy to.

[Joe Getty]

So, as I often point out on the show, I, Joe Getty, am the last thing I am is a conspiracy theorist. I'm somebody who's been studying political systems and political movements since I was literally a teenager. And it's the most fascinating subject on earth. And one thing that has really frustrated me is how few people understand that a lot of what we've been talking about, the censorship on campus, the microaggressions, the banning hate speech, quote, unquote, a lot of it is people who've bought the moral argument that that's what they should do. But it is driven by, and nobody talks about this, the critical theory crowd, the folks who are fans of Michel Foucault and Frantz Fanon, the French philosophers of the mid 20th century and into the 1970s. As I often say, they wrote books, they put their names on the spine, they explained exactly what they wanted to do, and it's exactly what we're witnessing. Any comment? Agree, disagree? Thoughts?

[Greg Lukianoff]

Oh, no, absolutely. Although I would actually go after, you know, because it's not a thinker. I have a lot of respect for Herbert Marcuse because Herbert Marcouz was a Marxist. He had to flee Germany when the Nazis took over. He lived in academia, I think, at Brandeis and ucsd, I think UC San Diego. And he sort of was trying to sort of like reform Marxism because it turned out the proletariat didn't really like the intellectuals. So he kind of like remodeled it so that essentially it would be a combination of the intellectuals, the educated in the United States versus with what he very sensitively called ghetto populations against the right. He. He was incredibly clear that he thought there should be free speech for the left and not for the right. He couldn't have said it more primitively than he did in a essay called Repressive Tolerance. And that view that you can't really be equal if the bad guys are allowed. Free speech has taken over in a lot of spaces. Even when I was at school, even when I was in law school back in 97, I was running into this argument already and I was like, I worked at the aclu. I grew up believing that free speech was like the defining sort of liberal characteristic. But unfortunately, we have this sort of terminological term where you have this kind of like much more typically old European style, Frankfurt School left that is very hostile to free speech, but calls itself liberal. And so I personally think right now, the center left and the center right have much more in common with each other than they do with their wings. And when you look at the data, we are the majority and then some. And we believe in freedom of speech. And we have to talk back to these people who don't realize that they're spouting Marcuse and Foucault and all these people who, by the way, people in their own lifetimes like Habermas who just died, did an incredible job of refuting. These weren't, in my opinion, particularly deep thinkers or good historians, but unfortunately, we have a lot of people who think that the morality is on the side of the censor.

[Joe Getty]

Greg, we only have about two minutes left. What is. Let's. Let's jump to an action plan. Now. I support FIRE in every way I can, including financially. What's the most important thing everybody listening can do or things they can do to help fight for free speech?

[Greg Lukianoff]

You know, please find out more about us. But the most important thing you can do is to make it known that when someone gets in trouble for speech you personally disagree with, you do not think they should be fired, you do not think they should be arrested, you do not think and stand up for them unapologetically. Because that's the thing that brought people like me into this business. Seeing the ACLU stand up for the rights of the Nazis, you know, Jewish lawyers standing up for them, that was the most principled thing I'd ever even heard of in my entire life. And that's the kind of thing that gets people to understand that free speech belongs to everyone or it belongs to no one.

[Joe Getty]

Right here, here. You know, I grew up only a few miles from Skokie, Illinois, and following that drama as a, gosh, a kid, teenager, whatever I was, and having my parents explain that principle to me, it gives me chills thinking about it because it was such a formative moment.

[Greg Lukianoff]

Yeah. My parents were both immigrants, and I grew up in a neighborhood with a lot of immigrant kids. And the idea that our families fled countries where they didn't have freedom of speech. And we were finally in a country that was so principled that people would even defend their enemies.

[Joe Getty]

Let's not give it up. Greg Lukianoff of fire. We'll have a link so you can find it easily enough in his books and that sort of [e-mail] Greg, it's always a pleasure. It's been too long. I hope we can do it again.

[Greg Lukianoff]

Absolutely.

[Joe Getty]

All right. Thanks. Thanks Greg Lukianoff yeah, I seriously get so fired up about this stuff. I've threatened many times to get a first Amendment tattoo, but I don't want a tattoo at all. So I don't think that's going to happen.

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