Go to Hell!!!

Summary

Armstrong & Getty On Demand

Episode: Go to Hell!!!
Date: May 21, 2026
Host: iHeartPodcasts (Joe & Michael)

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the transformation of infamous serial killer David Berkowitz, known as the "Son of Sam," who terrorized New York City in the late 1970s. Joe and Michael discuss the concept of redemption, forgiveness, and whether profound change is possible for even the darkest offenders. The episode also touches on personal anecdotes about public libraries and ends on a lighter note with a debate on Pop Tart flavors.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Public Libraries and Urban Decay

• Timestamps: 02:30–04:46
• Michael recounts a personal story inspired by a headline: "Save LA's libraries from violent vagrants."
• Observations about the decline of public library environments due to homelessness and substance use are shared.
• Michael no longer frequents his local library, citing safety and comfort concerns:
  • “I stopped going to the public library quite a while back for the very reason is because it just got to be. It's just full of bums.” (02:50, Michael)
• Michael's son experienced the issue firsthand: computers were largely being used by people appearing to be homeless, one of whom was “watching Mall Cop and eating Pop Tarts.”
• Joe humorously questions the appropriateness of paying to watch the film:
  • “No human being should pay money to watch Paul Blart Mall Cop comedy classic.” (04:37, Joe)

2. The Son of Sam: David Berkowitz’s Transformation

• Timestamps: 08:03–16:41
• Joe introduces the topic of “Go to Hell” by recounting the origins of the Son of Sam murders and his own memories of that era as a child near New York City:
  • “If you're old enough, you remember The Son of Sam killings in New York City...as a kid, you could not escape the Son of Sam headlines and stories.” (08:03, Joe)
• They discuss Berkowitz’s claim that a neighbor's dog commanded him to kill; Michael is surprised he remains in prison and that he doesn’t claim insanity.
• Joe cites a recent interview where Berkowitz says he’s found salvation in Christianity, ministers to other inmates, and feels his “home is in heaven, not the Bronx”—he is not seeking parole and believes his purpose is to help others behind bars:
  • “My home is in heaven, not the Bronx. I’m already free and the only place I’m looking forward to going to is to be in heaven with the Lord.” (12:21, Joe quoting Berkowitz)
• The conversation pivots to whether such transformation is genuine and if it changes society’s view of accountability and justice. Michael points out:
  • “...the idea that you can't get into any place so dark that the light can't penetrate it and overcome it. And he was in about as dark a place as you could possibly be.” (14:41, Michael)
• Joe references the biblical Saul:
  • “You got to cast your mind back to Saul of Tarsus, right, who ended up being the Apostle Paul... he persecuted Christians, and that doesn’t mean gave them parking tickets.” (14:59, Joe)
• They debate if Berkowitz's transformation argues against the death penalty since he has become, potentially, “a net plus for society”:
  • “At this moment, in quite a few years, he’s a net plus for society, not a net negative.” (15:59, Michael)
• They recognize the difficulty and discomfort in weighing earthly versus spiritual forgiveness:
  • “Maybe you just stand up at a place psychologically where there’s no forgiveness for you on earth, brother. But if there is, in the kingdom of heaven, as you understand it, that’s for God to decide. But, no, not down here.” (13:49, Joe)

3. Pop Tart Flavor Debate

• Timestamps: 16:41–18:05
• Michael shifts to a lighter topic, asking about favorite Pop Tart flavors as an “out” from the grim previous discussion.
• Michael picks blueberry; Joe calls Apple Cinnamon the “obvious best,” and both deride chocolate as “a child’s Pop Tart.”
  • “Blueberry. Joe says, easy. It's gonna be interesting to.” (16:48, Michael)
  • “What's the obvious? Best flavor of Pop Tart Apple cinnamon.” (17:08, Joe)
  • “That's a child's Pop Tart.” (17:33, Joe)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the modern library experience:
  • “All the computers were being taken up by what looked to be vagrants...you got bums looking at porn.” (03:55, Michael/Joe)
• On David Berkowitz’s repentance:
  • “He does not claim that he was insane. He claims that he got swept away in a bizarre fantasy and is deeply ashamed of it.” (10:54, Joe)
  • “He claims that he’s got a higher calling... my work is in prison where God has his people confined. These men need guidance, help and encouragement. I'm an elder and this is my calling.” (13:09, Joe quoting Berkowitz)
• On theology and evil:
  • “The light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not.” (15:22, Michael)
• Earth vs. heaven—on forgiveness:
  • “If there is [forgiveness], in the kingdom of heaven...that’s for God to decide. But, no, not down here.” (13:49, Joe)
• On Pop Tart choices:
  • “Chocolate Pop Tarts...they don’t taste like chocolate. They taste like something kind of like chocolate blueberry.” (17:48, 17:53, Michael/Joe)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Time | Segment Description | |----------|-----------------------------------------------| | 02:30 | Discussion of public libraries and vagrancy | | 04:46 | Transition to Son of Sam coverage | | 08:03 | Deep dive into Berkowitz story | | 09:37 | Joe’s memories of the era | | 10:41 | Berkowitz’s conversion and current activities | | 12:21 | Berkowitz’s interview quotes | | 14:41 | Light and darkness—redemption discussion | | 15:59 | Death penalty debate in light of transformation| | 16:41 | Pop Tart flavor debate—lighthearted closer |

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Tone and Style

Joe and Michael balance gravity and levity, diving deep on moral and societal questions before lightening the mood with banter. Their conversational, sometimes sardonic style keeps heavy content accessible and engaging.

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Summary

This episode explores how society and theology reckon with heinous crime, repentance, and the possibility of personal change. Through the lens of David Berkowitz, the “Son of Sam,” Armstrong and Getty consider redemption, justice, and whether true transformation alters the moral calculus for the worst among us—while never losing their trademark touch of humor. The concluding minutes offer classic, lighthearted debate over the best Pop Tart, showcasing the show's ability to handle both the profound and the playful.

Transcript

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[Joe]

Go to hell. It's one more thing.

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[Michael]

Before we get to go to hell, I just saw this headline. It reminded me a story from my own child's life. Save LA's libraries from violent Vagrants. There's a push from the California Post editorial board about how Los Angeles libraries have been overrun by shocking scenes of ex cons Drugs and chaos, overwhelming staff, terrifying visitors at the public library. And then so regular people aren't going. I stopped going to the public library quite a while back for the very reason is because it just got to be. It's just full of bums. The library I went to in downtown Sacramento, the main public library in Sacramento, I used to go to weekly. I would check out audiobooks. I'd check out books rather than buy them. But it became just.

[Joe]

There's just too many drug addicts. There's anyone.

[Michael]

I'll just don't. Don't pay for it. And I don't know what it's like now. I haven't been there in 20 years, but I know it's a common experience in public libraries. And my son was at the public library the other day. For whatever reason, he's got a homeschool thing and so he's working on a paper. All the computers were being taken up by what looked to be vagrants. He finally got. And the computers are supposed to be there for you to be able to, you know, for those who don't. Acts have access to WI fi and modern technology, and that's what's holding them back in the world. We're providing computers and Internet service here

[Joe]

at the library for those who don't have technology privilege. Right, Exactly. And so you got bums looking at porn.

[Michael]

Well, in this case, the. The person sitting next to Henry, he noticed it was a. What certainly appeared to be a street person watching Mall Cop and eating Pop Tarts. Huh. So probably stole the Pop Tarts. Or maybe my fine city hands them out and I pay for them. I do not know. And watching Mall Cop, which I guess means. This is what Henry said. So does that mean he has a streaming service somehow? Does he have that he logged into Netflix or. Or does that provided by the library too? I have no idea.

[Joe]

No human being should pay money to watch Paul Blart Mall Cop comedy classic. Yeah, that's giving that away.

[Michael]

I'm glad that while I was at work this gentleman could enjoy a fine comedy and have some Pop Tarts in the middle of the day. And the air conditioning.

[Joe]

What was his flavor of choice? Was it the ubiquitous strawberry or something a bit more esoteric?

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[Joe]

Go to hell, I said in the introduction. Here's what I'm talking about. Excuse me. Damn allergies. If you're old enough, you remember The Son of Sam killings in New York City was 48 years ago. 49 years ago, that one David Berkowitz, pudgy 23 year old semi delusional idiot, decided his neighbor's dog was telling him to kill people. And he murdered six people in cold blood and shot several others who survived. Their lives changed physically and psychologically forever.

[Michael]

I didn't realize he was the guy from the original. My dog told me to do it.

[Joe]

Yeah. Yes. Sam was his. Either his neighbors neighbor's dog and he claimed the dog was telling him to kill people. But. And he's allegedly not insane. He's still in prison.

[Michael]

I didn't know that.

[Joe]

Yeah. And always will be. I happened to spend a good deal of that summer in New Jersey, in Teaneck, New Jersey, right across the river from New York City. And we were in no danger, obviously. But as a kid, you could not escape the Son of Sam headlines and stories. They were everywhere all the time. So there was a real feeling of unease as a serial killer was killing people as we spoke.

[Michael]

What year did you say that is?

[Joe]

See, it was 77.

[Michael]

I was about to say. How close to 77 was it?

[Joe]

There's 76 and 77.

[Michael]

Wow. Because there have been a number of documentaries talking about that. That was the height of fear in a, in America, certainly in New York City, which drove the fear in America because New York news dominates our culture so much. But that was the height of. New York is a dangerous place to be. Movies, TV shows, everything. And there you were right next to the, the metropolitan area in the outer

[Joe]

ribs of the arms of the belly of the beast. Anyway, so Berkowitz is 72 years old now. He's, he's still in prison, maximum security in New York. And he gave an interview recently, I guess partly because he didn't bother showing up for a parole hearing. And what he said was that he wouldn't leave prison if you asked him to. He converted to Christianity, found salvation in Jesus, and his entire life now is ministering to and teaching inmates about the gospel.

[Michael]

Was he not crazy anymore? How do you go from your dog, the neighbor's dog tells you to kill people, to, you know, an understanding of theology that allows you to or compels you to try to help other people.

[Joe]

Yeah. He does not claim that he was insane. He claims that he got swept away in a bizarre fantasy and is deeply ashamed of it. He's horrified by what he did.

[Michael]

That's fascinating.

[Joe]

Yeah, yeah. In, in front of a parole board in 2024. He said he made a pact with the devil. It sounds just so ridiculous looking back at it now, but I was thoroughly enmeshed in that mindset and I was on a mission for human sacrifices and I'm ashamed of that.

[Michael]

Wow. So is there any mention of like, medication? Was he any kind of, any brand of schizophrenic or borderline personality?

[Joe]

No.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Joe]

No mention of that. Which, you know, seems, I mean, to anybody who's at least semi normal, including you good people, it's impossible to, to wrap your head around doing things as horrifying as he did just because you kind of got swept up in something. But, you know, during the radio show today, we happen to be slash, podcast. We were talking about people who get swept up in ideologies and decide that it's so righteous you can kill people over it. And generally it's younger people who this happens to because once you get older, a little more perspective and develop a little more compassion for others, you're not going to get swept up like that. There are certainly exceptions. They tend to be, you know, older, middle aged, really embittered men. But anyway, so I think there's a relationship here. He was young and foolish and a half wit and fell into this fantasy and probably got excited by the thrill of killing people. Anyway, so he was talking to the New York Post and he said, my home is in heaven, not the Bronx. I'm already free and the only place I'm looking forward to going to is to be in heaven with the Lord. Now they sought out some of his victims who survived and the families of those victims who, who say it takes. Well, I'm going to quote one guy who was shot in the head by Berkowitz and survived. That takes some pair of balls to say the least. I sincerely doubt he's going to heaven. He's lucky he's not already in hell. And similar quotes from other people like that. He said he. He said, I'm not seeking parole. I opted not to attend. Right now I have other things to do which I feel are more meaningful. He said he believes a higher calling brought him to prison where he oversees a thriving congregation and preaches the gospel to troubled inmates. My work is in prison where God has his people confined. These men need guidance, help and encouragement. I'm an elder and this is my calling. What the hell do you make of that?

[Michael]

I don't know. That's pretty interesting.

[Joe]

Lord knows I have only a seekers knowledge of Christian doctrine, but a fairly decent amount of that completely repented lives his life now, to bring comfort to others, has confessed his sins, expressed his regret. You know, maybe because a lot of the victims can't forgive them. Maybe you just stand up at a place psychologically where there's no forgiveness for you on earth, brother. But if there is, in the kingdom of heaven, as you understand it, that's for God to decide. But, no, not down here.

[Michael]

Theological perspective, it would be the idea that you can't get into any place so dark that the light can't penetrate it and overcome it. And he was in about as dark a place as you could possibly be.

[Joe]

And, you know, if you're familiar with the Gospels at all, you got to cast your mind back to Saul of Tarsus, right, who ended up being the Apostle Paul. He persecuted Christians, and that doesn't mean gave them parking tickets. I think that story's in there for a reason.

[Michael]

And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not.

[Joe]

What the hell's that? Said the darkness.

[Michael]

Anyway, that's an interesting story. I might look into more on that

[Joe]

final note from the murderous monster.

[Michael]

Is that an argument against the death penalty? That somebody could turn their life around, let good as opposed to evil into their heart, and try to help other people?

[Joe]

Because right at this moment, yeah, clearly it's an argument. Whether you buy it or not is up to you. But, yeah, that's a pretty powerful argument

[Michael]

at this moment, in quite a few years, he's a net plus for society, not a net negative. If you start, you know, at whatever point after the killings, obviously he's in prison trying to turn people around. That's a net plus for society, so you better.

[Joe]

I hate to do that grim math, but I admire your willingness to do it. So. Asked by the New York Post what he'd do if he received freedom, Berkowitz said, I'm already free. Jesus, who is my Lord and Messiah, set me free from the power of sin and Satan.

[Michael]

That's a good one.

[Joe]

Wow.

[Michael]

Wow is right.

[Joe]

I'm glad I'm not in charge of figuring this stuff out. I'm a simple man.

[Michael]

I got a perfect way to get out of this favorite pop tart flavor, Michael.

[Joe]

Oh, please.

[Michael]

Blueberry. Joe says, easy. It's gonna be interesting to.

[Joe]

Blueberries. I shot off my mouth, Michael. That's a good choice. Blueberry. Ah, yeah, like blueberry.

[Michael]

Never liked the blueberry ones.

[Joe]

Wow. My.

[Michael]

My brother's favorite flavor, which I thought was disgusting, I'll tell you that. Next, Joe went with, well, it's obvious.

[Joe]

What's the obvious? Best flavor of Pop Tart Apple cinnamon.

[Michael]

Yeah, it is. It is like having a little piece of flavor. It's like a little piece of pie.

[Joe]

So good.

[Michael]

Those apple maple, whatever that is. Oh, those are good. And I've eaten a ton of strawberries in my life because often that's all they had at the store. But my brother liked the chocolate Pop Tarts and I thought, gross.

[Joe]

That's a child's Pop Tart.

[Michael]

Well, we were children, which makes it easier.

[Joe]

Speaking of good defenses, it's a pretty good one.

[Michael]

We were children. But even as a kid I thought they were disgusting chocolate Pop Tarts.

[Joe]

And they don't taste like chocolate. They taste like something kind of like chocolate blueberry.

[Michael]

Michael, you constantly amaze me.

[Joe]

Yeah. Fascinating guy with jazz hands. Hansen says confetti. Oh, that's. Oh, disgusting.

[Michael]

I don't know what to think. Well, on that thought, I guess that's it.

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[Martha Stewart]

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[Coldwater Creek Advertiser]

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