Going After the Proxies.  Gordon Chang Talks to A&G

Summary

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Armstrong & Getty On Demand

Episode: Going After the Proxies. Gordon Chang Talks to A&G
Date: April 10, 2026
Host: Armstrong & Getty
Guest: Gordon Chang (Author & Columnist)

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Armstrong & Getty welcome renowned China expert and commentator Gordon Chang for an incisive discussion on current U.S.-China relations amid geopolitical tensions. The conversation explores China’s stance on the conflict in the Gulf, Xi Jinping’s sweeping military purges, U.S. foreign policy under President Trump, and the strategy of targeting China's proxies. The hosts and Chang also reflect on the big picture of China's evolving global role and prospects for its political system.

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Key Topics & Insights

1. China’s Perspective on the Gulf Conflict

• Chinese Response: The episode opens with examination of a strong statement from the Chinese government regarding military escalation and the Strait of Hormuz crisis.
  • Guest’s View: Chang argues China sees President Trump as willing to use force, but they may still try to back him down. Iran's violation of the ceasefire will test if Trump is willing to impose costs.
  • Quote:
    "They're seeing that President Trump is determined that he is willing to use force and they believe that they can back him down."
    — Gordon Chang [01:53]

2. China and the Risk to Taiwan

• Host’s Question: Does China see an opportunity to move on Taiwan due to U.S. distraction in the Gulf?
• Chang’s Assessment: Xi Jinping's purges in the military have crippled Chinese military leadership, making a direct Taiwan invasion unlikely now. Still, provocations could lead to conflict elsewhere.
  • Quote:
    "The risk that people think about all the time, which is the one you mentioned, is, I think, off the table because of Xi Jinping's purges."
    — Gordon Chang [02:31]

3. Strait of Hormuz and Economic Leverage

• Host’s Query: Is China taking notes on Iran’s use of shipping lanes as economic blackmail?
• Chang’s Take: Iran’s tolls (payable in Chinese yuan) disrupt global trade and help China promote de-dollarization. The U.S. could take a decisive stance by blocking ships that pay such tolls.
  • Quote:
    "Iran is helping China by de dollarizing the world by requiring the toll be paid in China's currency, the renmindi."
    — Gordon Chang [03:28]

4. Xi Jinping’s Military Purges

• Host: Requests context on military purges’ significance.
• Chang: Explains deep infighting and instability within China’s military due to Xi’s anti-corruption purges. The situation is opaque but shows serious internal turmoil.
  • Quote:
    "There is all out fighting among the generals and admirals...the regime has become even more opaque over the last three or four years."
    — Gordon Chang [04:32]

5. Trump’s Current China Strategy

• Host: Notes a shift in Trump’s strategy to a more conciliatory tone, differing from his first term.
• Chang: Highlights that Trump seems eager for a meeting with China, which may project weakness. Advises the U.S. to reverse roles and make China chase dialogue to better use American leverage.
  • Quote:
    "That makes it much harder for him to accomplish what he wants with China...We have chased the Chinese for dialogue, and that has inflated their already big sense of self importance."
    — Gordon Chang [05:33]

6. Enduring U.S. Strategic Weakness

• Hosts & Chang: Agree the U.S. has historically shown weakness in dealings with China, hoping integration and generosity would lead to change, which has not succeeded.
  • Quote:
    "They have seen even strong American presidents act weak towards China...What we're doing right now, it has no chance of success."
    — Gordon Chang [06:30]

7. The “Big Picture” in U.S.-China Relations

• Host: Asks what the media misses about U.S.-China relations.
• Chang: Praises Trump’s strategy of targeting China’s global proxies (Venezuela, Cuba, Iran), weakening China indirectly. He also points out that China’s economic pivot away from consumption will ultimately harm its stability.
  • Quote:
    "President Trump is going after China's proxies...China is basically losing its pause. So this is really good for us."
    — Gordon Chang [07:31]

8. Chang’s Predictions & Reflections on China’s Future

• Host: References Chang’s first book, asking how his prediction of Communist Party collapse has aged.
• Chang: Admits his predicted timeline was off (missed the impact of 2008 financial crisis stimulus), but insists the regime is currently very fragile, especially economically. Trump could exploit this fragility if he wishes.
  • Quote:
    "China is right now at a very fragile point and President Trump can exploit that if he chooses to do so."
    — Gordon Chang [09:39]

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Notable Quotes

• "They're seeing that President Trump is determined that he is willing to use force and they believe that they can back him down."
  — Gordon Chang [01:53]
• "The risk that people think about all the time, which is the one you mentioned, is, I think, off the table because of Xi Jinping's purges."
  — Gordon Chang [02:31]
• "Iran is helping China by de dollarizing the world by requiring the toll be paid in China's currency, the renmindi."
  — Gordon Chang [03:28]
• "That makes it much harder for him to accomplish what he wants with China...We have chased the Chinese for dialogue, and that has inflated their already big sense of self importance."
  — Gordon Chang [05:33]
• "They have seen even strong American presidents act weak towards China...What we're doing right now, it has no chance of success."
  — Gordon Chang [06:30]
• "President Trump is going after China's proxies...China is basically losing its pause. So this is really good for us."
  — Gordon Chang [07:31]
• "China is right now at a very fragile point and President Trump can exploit that if he chooses to do so."
  — Gordon Chang [09:39]

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Memorable Moments & Tone

• Candid Assessment: Chang’s critiques of both U.S. foreign policy consistency and Chinese internal dynamics are direct and unvarnished, fitting the episode’s serious, analytical tone.
• Host’s Appreciation: The hosts repeatedly affirm the unique depth of Chang’s analysis, underscoring the importance of going beyond headline news.
• Expert Distillation: Chang succinctly connects economic policy, military turmoil, and geopolitical strategy to provide a comprehensive overview rarely heard in mainstream discussion.

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:53] – Chang on China’s view of Trump and Iran
• [02:31] – On the unlikelihood of a China move on Taiwan
• [03:28] – Strait of Hormuz and de-dollarization
• [04:32] – Significance of Xi’s military purges
• [05:33] – Trump’s approach and diplomatic dynamics
• [06:30] – Why the old U.S. approach to China fails
• [07:31] – Big picture: going after China’s proxies and economic impacts
• [09:39] – On the fragility of China’s regime today

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For listeners seeking a nuanced, up-to-the-minute perspective on U.S.-China relations and the broader implications of current global crises, this conversation with Gordon Chang is essential: sharp, timely, and accessible to a broad audience.

Transcript

[Gordon Chang]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Podcast Host (possibly Armstrong or Getty)]

Guaranteed Human.

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[Podcast Host (possibly Armstrong or Getty)]

Start your free [e-mail] we also heard

[News Reporter or Correspondent]

from the Chinese spokesperson who said that military means cannot fundamentally solve this problem and that the escalation of the conflict is not in the interest of either side. The root cause of the Strait of Hormuz blockage, they said, is the illegal military operation in Iran. So this is the strongest we've heard from the Chinese as well.

[Podcast Host (possibly Armstrong or Getty)]

Whenever we're talking about China, we always want to know what Gordon Chang has to say. Gordon is an author and columnist. He is clear eyed, he is direct and knows what he's talking about. Also, for folks who live in the area of our flagship station in the capital of Cal, Unicornia, Gordon Chang's going to be appearing at the Capitol Lincoln Club's inaugural Freedom awards dinner on May 2nd at the Sutter Club. Get info online at CapitolLinkInCOlub.com we'll have a link at Armstrongandgetty.com I would love to be there. Sounds great. Gordon Chang, welcome. How are you?

[Gordon Chang]

I'm fine, thank you. And thank you so much.

[Podcast Host (possibly Armstrong or Getty)]

Oh, it's our pleasure. I was just touting your upcoming appearance in Sacramento. So we've covered that and we'll have a link at our website so people can get more information easily. But we played a clip on the way back that mentioned the Chinese made comments about the war in the Gulf and what was going on there. Why don't we start there? What do you think? What lessons do you think the Chinese leadership are taking from what they're seeing unfold right now?

[Gordon Chang]

They're seeing that President Trump is determined that he is willing to use force and they believe that they can back him down. I'm not sure that they're convinced of the last one, but they're certainly trying to do that. We now have that cease fire. The Iranians violated the cease fire from the get go and I guess we're going to see if President Trump imposes costs on Tehran for doing that.

[Podcast Host (possibly Armstrong or Getty)]

Now every time the wind changes direction, somebody brings up, will China take advantage of this to move on Taiwan. How concerned are you about that in the near term? And how do you see that situation in general?

[Gordon Chang]

Yeah, I don't see the Chinese taking advantage of the situation. There clearly is one. We've been moving military assets out of East Asia, especially South Korea. But unfortunately for Xi Jinping, he has decimated the top of the Chinese military with his purges, which means that they are not capable of starting hostilities by launching an invasion on the main island of Taiwan. Now, China can blunder into a war elsewhere. They're engaged in very provocative activities in the South China Sea, for instance. So the risk of war is still high, but the risk that people think about all the time, which is the one you mentioned, is, I think, off the table because of Xi Jinping's purges.

[Podcast Host (possibly Armstrong or Getty)]

Do you think Xi and his leadership are looking at the Straits of Hormuz and thinking. So extracting a toll or blackmailing the world through closing shipping lanes is on the table now?

[Gordon Chang]

Oh, certainly, because Iran has been charging tolls. It's been blocking shipping since Tuesday, the announcement of the cease fire. And basically Iran is helping China by de dollarizing the world by requiring the toll be paid in China's currency, the renmindi. So Iran is trying it on. If the United States has had any consistent foreign policy over the course of 250 years, it's been keeping the global commons open. China and Iran are challenging that. And we're going to see if President Trump opens the strait. President Trump has the power to do it. We can even do it without putting boots on the ground. We can do that, for instance, by closing the strait to all shipping that has paid the toll. That would force the Iranians to stop the toll. But we're going to see if President Trump will do that.

[Podcast Host (possibly Armstrong or Getty)]

Hey, let's hit rewind real quickly. It flitted out of my mind. I'd meant to follow up. You talked about the purge of the top generals in the ch Communist military. What was that all about? Help us understand that dynamic.

[Gordon Chang]

Yeah, this is one of the most important things that have gone on in the world. And basically Xi Jinping, through his corruption purges, has removed a lot of officers. Now, some of those officers have been engaged in removing Xi Jinping's loyalist from the top of the top of the military from all we can see, which means that there is all out fighting among the generals and admirals. There's a lot we don't know because the regime has become even more opaque over the last three or four years. But we are Seeing signs that show turmoil at the top of the People's Liberation Army.

[Podcast Host (possibly Armstrong or Getty)]

We're talking to author and commentator Gordon Chang. Gordon, I saw a piece in the Journal today that bothered me. Trump quietly scraps his own playbook on China. The White House walks back. The aggressive approach of the first administration Trump won, which I praised heartily for helping the American people understand that, no, China's not our buddy, they're our adversary. Have you been watching that? And what do you make of it? More conciliatory approach.

[Gordon Chang]

You know, President Trump wants this meeting that is now scheduled for May 14th. The White House announced it, but China hasn't announced it. And that's making President Trump look a little bit needy, which is not a good look for the United States, because that means it makes it much harder for him to accomplish what he wants with China. Sometimes, you know, for four decades, and this goes back to the Nixon era, we have chased the Chinese for dialogue, and that has inflated their already big sense of self importance. So I think the way we get things from China is we stop talking to them and we make them chase us for once. If we do that, then we are able to use our leverage. But if we appear desperate to talk to China, China would certainly use that against us.

[Podcast Host (possibly Armstrong or Getty)]

All right. They're absolutely relentless and remorseless in exploiting any weakness. Correct?

[Gordon Chang]

Correct. And they have seen even strong American presidents act weak towards China. We have done that to be generous, to be indulgent, to try to integrate the Chinese into the international system, to try to entice them. But although that sounds like it should work, it hasn't worked. So we've got to pivot and try something that might work. What might work, may not work, but at least it has a chance of working. What we're doing right now, it has no chance of success.

[Podcast Host (possibly Armstrong or Getty)]

Wow, that is so interesting and troubling, and I hope they figure that out quickly. So one of the recurring themes of the show, whether today or in general, Gordon, is that it makes me insane when the media reports, you know, the day to day, you know, occurrences, the happenings around the world, but they completely miss the big picture. When you think about the big picture with US China relations, what do you think is left out of the discussion usually? What do people not understand about China?

[Gordon Chang]

Well, the most important thing which sometimes gets discussed is that President Trump is going after China's proxies. China doesn't want to take on the world directly. So what President Trump has been doing is going after Venezuela, going after Cuba now, going after Iran, and China is basically losing its pause. So this is really good for us. The other big story that people don't talk about is that because. Because China has turned its back on consumption as the basis of the Chinese economy. The only way China can grow is to export more. Xi Jinping, by disrupting the world through various stratagems, is basically globalizing the world. He's making trade more difficult. And I think that ultimately Xi Jinping is working against his own economy. He works against his own economy, that economy will fail. And if that fails, the political system will be in deep trouble.

[Podcast Host (possibly Armstrong or Getty)]

Interesting. So, and I appreciate you talking about the actions against China's proxies, and you're absolutely right. So am I just wrong in believing that the approach is more conciliatory or is it, you know, just choosing different avenues to exert pressure?

[Gordon Chang]

It's choosing different areas to exert pressure. And Trump is messing with the Chinese. On the one hand, when you look at the substance of his policies, they're mostly really good. But when you look at the rhetoric, it isn't good. And so there is a. The Chinese must be totally confused by Trump because there's only one person in the world who knows what Trump is doing, and that is our president. President himself.

[Podcast Host (possibly Armstrong or Getty)]

Right, Right. And this is the sort of commentary, Gordon, you just don't get elsewhere, which is why it's a pleasure to talk to you. So final question. Your first book, if I'm correct, was the Coming Collapse of China, which you wrote in 2001. Maybe you could explain very briefly the premise of the book, but how is it aging? What has changed? What are your thoughts on the longer term trajectory of China right now?

[Gordon Chang]

In that book, I said the Communist Party would fail within 10 years. I was wrong. What happened is the 2008 downturn, which gave a lot of confidence and strength to the regime, but they overstimulated their economy. They now basically having their 2008 debt crisis while their economy is really deteriorating fast. So China is right now at a very fragile point and President Trump can exploit that if he chooses to do so.

[Podcast Host (possibly Armstrong or Getty)]

Okay. Interesting, interesting. Gordon Chang is upcoming appearance in Sacramento again is at the Sutter Club on May 2nd. And we'll have all the info readily available at Armstrongandgetti.com Gordon, it's always stimulating. Thanks for the time. Let's do it again soon.

[Gordon Chang]

Oh, well, thank you. I really appreciate it and stay safe.

[Podcast Host (possibly Armstrong or Getty)]

Thanks. Thanks. Indeed.

[Gordon Chang]

Armstrong and Gettysburg.