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- [00:00]
Jack Armstrong
This is an I Heart podcast. If you need advice on love, I'll tell you who to go to. 2000 year old dead guys. It's One more thing. Armstrong and Getty. One more thing. I remember you mentioned this headline the other day and I went digging into the story and there's an even longer version of this, but I mean, it's like a scholarly paper, but I found this so compelling and amusing. 1. One difference between conservatives and progressives, generally speaking, is that there's an. If you. If you want to read like smart people talking about this, read Thomas Sowell's A Conflict of Visions. But people on the progressive end of things often think human beings can be changed fundamentally. We can reshape humanity according to our desires, whereas conservatives think no people have been people. Human nature has not changed in thousands of years. Just what surrounds us has. And I fervently agree with the, you know, latter point of view. I'm sure you're not surprised to hear that. But this. This story about ancient dating tips is so perfect, partly because it illustrates the point I was going to make.
- [01:21]
Joe Getty
The Roman there was dating 2,000 years ago.
- [01:25]
Jack Armstrong
100%. Yeah. Yeah. As this makes clear. I mean, I'm sure the rituals and traditions were different, but. So you got the Roman poet Ovid, who lived B, C, E. That's. Oh, that's. So you don't have to reference Jesus.
- [01:41]
Joe Getty
Right.
- [01:42]
Jack Armstrong
AD and BC Right Before Common era.
- [01:45]
Joe Getty
Yeah, that got it. Yeah. People didn't like, kind of.
- [01:49]
Jack Armstrong
Yeah, he's. Go ahead.
- [01:51]
Joe Getty
People didn't like Christ in their B.C. so.
- [01:53]
Jack Armstrong
Right. He actually spanned the life of Jesus, interestingly enough, during his life. But the Roman. Roman poet Ovid wrote a poem called the Art of Love in Latin, Ars Amatoria. In it, he offered advice for singles. First, he says, you should make an effort to find someone you're interested in. Interested in? Quote, your lover will not come floating down to you through the tenuous air. She must be sought.
- [02:21]
Joe Getty
Wow, that's a good one. You're not gonna run into Mrs. Mr. Right or Mrs. Right sitting here in the living room watching television.
- [02:28]
Jack Armstrong
Right. Get out there, meet people, do stuff. Ancient advice hasn't changed an iota, this has. Suitable places to find a lover. Ovid recommends walking in porticos. Oh, the number of hotties I've met in porticoes.
- [02:45]
Joe Getty
I thought he was going to say, go watch some Christians get eaten by lions. Lots of chicks there. Hot and cold running chicks.
- [02:52]
Jack Armstrong
Wow, look, the line just pulled the guy's leg off. What do you think of that? You're pretty good looking. Walk in porticos or gardens. Attend the theater, or surprisingly enough, linger near law courts. For some reason, I don't catch a diva. Or say, I don't know. And he says you need to catch someone's eye and then invent an excuse to talk with them. Oh, wow. W. Wow.
- [03:16]
Joe Getty
Telling you, I've always been really good at that. Inventing a reason to talk to someone.
- [03:21]
Jack Armstrong
Oh, I'm terrible at it. Seek your lover in the daytime, advises Ovid. Be careful of the night. You won't choose the right person if you're drunk. Wow. Geez. And you can't see their face properly if it's too dark. They might not be as good looking as you think. You combine a little abuse with a little dark and, you know, you wake up next to God knows what badge and beer goggles. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, goggles. Wow. There's more. Ovid says you need to look presentable. Make sure your clothes are clean. You have a good haircut.
- [03:58]
Joe Getty
Yeah.
- [03:58]
Jack Armstrong
Keep yourself pressure.
- [03:59]
Joe Getty
Tunic.
- [04:02]
Jack Armstrong
A nice, well, starched tunic draws the female eye like nothing else. Moreover, keep yourself groomed properly at all times. He says. And this is a quote. It's translated, obviously. But do not let your nails project. Be free of dirt.
- [04:17]
Joe Getty
Talking about your toenails because you're wearing.
- [04:18]
Jack Armstrong
Sandals and your fingernails. Or let in. Nor. Evidently he was a real stickler. Nor let any hair be in the hollow of your nostrils.
- [04:28]
Joe Getty
Wow. I appreciate these tips. Yeah, that's modern. I think that's a must. I'm surprised that back in the day, pre. Some of the mechanical devices we have now, that they had the ability to deal with nose hair.
- [04:49]
Jack Armstrong
Stick it up there.
- [04:50]
Joe Getty
Get a sharp rock.
- [04:54]
Jack Armstrong
And this one. Let not the breath of your mouth be sour and unpleasing. Oh, amen.
- [05:00]
Joe Getty
I wonder what they used to freshen their breath. I wonder how they trimmed their nose hair. Or did they yank them out?
- [05:06]
Jack Armstrong
Ow. Oof. The only insight I have on that first question is a scene from the movie Aladdin, which I think we're not supposed to like anymore because it included Arab stereotypes. But at one point, a vendor says to Aladdin, some sweet dates for sweet breath. Or maybe you chew on a mint leaf, you know, I don't know. Let's see. He suggests, if you're having no luck, you can use a matchmaker. The Athenian writer Xenophon, who is like way before the birth of Jesus, says people were sometimes victims of deception in the matchmaking process.
- [05:50]
Joe Getty
No way.
- [05:51]
Jack Armstrong
The matchmaker was just more into earning their commission. Than a good match, folks. Human nature does not change.
- [05:59]
Joe Getty
Yeah, see match.com.
- [06:02]
Jack Armstrong
Yeah, so the ancients recognized that being in not being in love can be a problem. They thought it was bad for your mental and physical health, but also for society more broadly. For instance, the Roman writer Claudius Alien 2 or 3 centuries CE. Oh, that's like post Jesus in his major publication that historians know about. Say soldiers who are in love will fight better than soldiers who are not in love.
- [06:29]
Joe Getty
Absolutely.
- [06:31]
Jack Armstrong
Quote, in the heat of battle, when war brings men into combat, a man who is not in love could not match one who is the man untouched by love, avoids and runs away from the man who loves as if he were an outsider uninitiated into the God's rights. And his bravery depends on his character and physical strength.
- [06:50]
Joe Getty
No doubt. But that's interesting that they recognize that at the time you got something to fight for, something to protect.
- [06:56]
Jack Armstrong
And the Spartans believe that so fervently they had a punishment for men who did not have a mate. Any man of good appearance and character who did not fall in love with someone well bred was also fined because despite his excellence, he did not love anyone. Lovers affection for their beloved has a remarkable power of stimulating the virtues.
- [07:17]
Joe Getty
I was about to say, me in high school, I got punished, but it said of good appearance or character. They'd say, yeah, you don't have anybody. But we understand. So we get it.
- [07:26]
Jack Armstrong
We're just going to put you on parole. Yeah, everybody gets it. During the radio show we were talking about a couple of prominent mainstream Democrats had Republicans they had branded Gen Z is the useful idiot generation. And the youthful radicalism that a lot of people have is not changing among them because they don't have a mate, they don't have a family, they, they live their lives online, that sort of thing. And it hadn't even occurred to me what, what Claudius Alien and the Spartans were talking about, even though I've observed it many times in my own life. Um, and I will speak mostly for men. For a man, a good man, the desire to not disappoint his woman is the most powerful motivator that's ever existed on earth, in my opinion. Speaking for myself and a lot of guys I know because we would have been willing to be dipshits till the day we died, at least on some.
- [08:33]
Joe Getty
Absolutely. Mattress on the floor in the living room till the day I die.
- [08:37]
Jack Armstrong
Right. At least get pulled in that direction. Yeah, yeah. Not to mention, you know, you just, you want to be admired by the person you love and we've lost a lot of that as a society, which is interesting. When people are in love, they can inspire each other and bring out the best in one another, et cetera, et cetera.
- [09:01]
Joe Getty
Claudius over there who smells like a goat, breath like a dragon, and his dirty toenails sticking out over his sandals. No wonder you're alone.
- [09:08]
Jack Armstrong
Claudius can't fight worth a damn either.
- [09:13]
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- [10:13]
Jack Armstrong
Let's see. Then they talk about let's not start.
- [10:17]
Joe Getty
On your nose hairs. Good Lord.
- [10:18]
Jack Armstrong
God, braid that stuff, please. It's like you inhaled the bear. Then they talk about the conflicts of love. For example, the Roman orator and politician Marcus Tullius Cicero, the great Cicero, one of the great thinkers of all time, tells how Gaius Memmius, Roman tribune of the year 11, apparently took out a took a bite out of his love rival's arm, quote when he had a quarrel with him at Racina over a girlfriend. You know all the fascinating stuff we wish we knew about the ancient world that's been lost, but this guy's hey, did you hear about Gaius? He took a bite out of some dude's arm over a girl that has been preserved. Let's see some ways to keep one's lover interested that are mentioned in ancient sources. Back to our main theme is includes showing off one's wealth. Wait a minute. In the ancient world, being wealthy and successful would help you land a girl. Now.
- [11:24]
Joe Getty
So you got the coolest chariot in town, huh?
- [11:27]
Jack Armstrong
Right?
- [11:27]
Joe Getty
See, these are round wheels. It's a new thing. Only the rich guys have it.
- [11:31]
Jack Armstrong
In one of the plays of the poet Alexis, a young man who is in love puts on a large banquet to impress his girlfriend with a display of wealth. Engagements were at that time sometimes canceled if it turned out that the husband was too poor and had misrepresented his wealth.
- [11:45]
Joe Getty
Oh yeah, pretended to you. He had a. He had his hundred dollar, whatever coin they used on top, and then underneath it, it was all ones.
- [11:59]
Jack Armstrong
This was one of my favorites. And of course, things did not always work out and people had grievances against their exes. One particularly famous invective was from the poet Marshall, again around the time of Jesus to a woman called Mania. I think I'm pronouncing that right. This is the quote from his. His poem Mania. Your little dog licks your face and lips. Small wonder that a dog likes eating dung. Wow.
- [12:25]
Joe Getty
Geez, that's a burn.
- [12:27]
Jack Armstrong
Oh, wow. Dude, dude, hang on to your dignity. Look, she's just not that into you. You don't have to call her old dung face. No wonder your little dog licks your face because you're made of poop. What? Marshall. Yeah, that's not good. And then why don't we make this the last note? This is. This is so good. And again, I rested my case a while ago, but I effing double rest it now that human nature does not change. 4th century before Christ, a play by Aerophoros. It's. It's. Oh, that's the century. I'm sorry. It's by Menander. The poem Ander. The title is the Pipe Girl. One character says, if you haven't got any sense, you won't get married. I married my. I'm married myself. Which is why I'm telling you not to. So it's just a Rodney Dangerfield don't get married. I am. Trust me.
- [13:35]
Joe Getty
That reminds me of a good Rodney Dangerfield joke, but it's. It's dirt. Too dirty. Too dirty.
- [13:40]
Jack Armstrong
That's.
- [13:41]
Joe Getty
Okay, tell it. Yeah, it's.
- [13:44]
Jack Armstrong
It's coarse.
- [13:45]
Joe Getty
Well, we'll cut it out.
- [13:46]
Jack Armstrong
Gentlemen. God. Ladies and gentlemen, if you don't hear the joke Jack has referred to in the podcast, it's because we've decided it's too horrifying.
- [13:53]
Joe Getty
Okay? Because his nightclub act was dirtier than like, what he did on TV and stuff, obviously.
- [14:00]
Jack Armstrong
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [14:02]
Joe Getty
My wife and I, we got a lot of common. Huh? We got a lot in common. I don't like giving blow jobs either. Yeah, he didn't do that on Carson.
- [14:13]
Jack Armstrong
I. I suggest cutting that from the place. I greenlined it.
- [14:22]
Joe Getty
Well, I guess that's it.
- [14:25]
Jack Armstrong
This is an I Heart podcast.