I'm Trying To Make A Case For Public Hangings

Summary

Armstrong & Getty On Demand – Episode: "I'm Trying To Make A Case For Public Hangings" Release Date: June 4, 2025

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Introduction to the Debate

In this provocative episode of Armstrong & Getty On Demand, hosts Jack Armstrong, Joe Getty, and Katie Green delve into a contentious and timely discussion: the proposition of reinstating public hangings. The conversation unfolds with a blend of humor and serious analysis, challenging listeners to reconsider historical practices in the context of modern justice systems.

Public Executions: A Historical Perspective

Katie Green introduces the topic by referencing Placerville, California, formerly known as "Hangtown," highlighting its historical significance in public executions. She states:

"...they'd bring criminals out who, who deserved the death penalty and they'd hang them there and everybody gather around and watch."
[03:26] Katie Green

Jack Armstrong concurs, expressing discomfort with the idea but acknowledging the cultural shift:

"I think the cloaking, the hiding of executions is a bad idea."
[05:05] Jack Armstrong

Cultural Shifts and Their Consequences

The hosts explore how societal changes have moved away from public displays of punishment:

• Katie Green emphasizes the contrast between past and present, noting that such public acts were once normalized but are now unthinkable.

• Jack Armstrong argues that the deterrent effect of executions diminishes when they are no longer visible to the public:

  "If it is so cloaked in secrecy and quiet... I mean that has zero deterrent effect."
  [05:28] Jack Armstrong

The Deterrence Debate

A significant portion of the discussion centers on whether public executions serve as an effective deterrent:

• Katie Green raises the point that witnessing punishments could instill a stronger sense of justice and consequence.

• Jack Armstrong counters with the idea that the obscurity of modern executions fails to achieve the intended deterrent effect.

Modern Implications and Ethical Considerations

The conversation shifts to broader implications of reinstating public hangings:

• Jack Armstrong expresses ambivalence about the death penalty itself, questioning the morality of government-sanctioned execution.

• Katie Green reflects on how shielding society, especially children, from harsh realities like executions might contribute to increased anxiety and fear.

  "People are scared and anxious."
  [12:10] Katie Green

Historical Practices vs. Contemporary Society

Katie shares anecdotes illustrating how societal norms have evolved:

• Katie Green discusses adopting past practices, such as educational demonstrations of butchering, to instill a clearer understanding of life and death.

  "I'm gonna figure it out today. I'm gonna go down to the grade school and I'll shoot a number of animals right in front of the children."
  [12:10] Katie Green

• The hosts debate the potential psychological impacts of reintroducing such practices, weighing educational benefits against ethical concerns.

Broader Societal Reflections: Male Friendships Crisis

In an unexpected pivot, the hosts transition to another pressing issue: the decline of male friendships in America. Referencing a 2024 study by the Survey Center on American Life, Katie points out:

"Only a quarter of men reported having six or more close friends... The zero crowd went from... roughly three to 17 percent."
[30:00] Katie Green

Jack Armstrong and Katie Green discuss possible reasons, including increased screen time, societal expectations of masculinity, and the erosion of traditional bonding activities. This segment underscores the interconnectedness of societal practices and individual well-being.

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

As the episode winds down, the hosts reflect on the complexities of societal change:

• Jack Armstrong highlights the need for balance between maintaining order and preserving humane treatment within the justice system.

• Katie Green emphasizes the importance of fostering genuine human connections to combat the growing sense of isolation among men.

The episode concludes without definitive answers, instead encouraging listeners to ponder the ramifications of reintroducing archaic practices and addressing modern social issues.

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Notable Quotes:

• "If it is so cloaked in secrecy and quiet... I mean that has zero deterrent effect."
  — Jack Armstrong [05:28]

• "People are scared and anxious."
  — Katie Green [12:10]

• "Only a quarter of men reported having six or more close friends... The zero crowd went from... roughly three to 17 percent."
  — Katie Green [30:00]

---

This episode of Armstrong & Getty offers a compelling examination of historical justice practices and their relevance today, intertwined with a critical look at emerging social challenges. Through engaging dialogue and thought-provoking insights, the hosts encourage listeners to reflect on the evolution of societal norms and their impact on both collective and individual well-being.

Transcript

[Jack Armstrong]

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[Joe Getty]

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[Katie Green]

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[Michaelangelo]

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[Jack Armstrong]

So good.

[Joe Getty]

Your bill ladies.

[Katie Green]

I got it.

[Joe Getty]

No, I got it. Seriously, I insist. I insisted first.

[Katie Green]

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[Michaelangelo]

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[Joe Getty]

You don't be silly.

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[Jack Armstrong]

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[Jack Armstrong]

Broadcasting live from the Abraham Lincoln radio studio, the George Washington Broadcast Center. Jack Armstrong and Joe Getty. Armstrong and Getty. And now here's Armstrong and Yeti. The Los Angeles Police Department has launched an investigation after an officer accidentally fired a round from their personal rifle in a parking garage.

[Joe Getty]

Well, that's one way to remember where you parked.

[Jack Armstrong]

I thought it was G7.

[Joe Getty]

No, it's definitely the one with the bullet hole.

[Katie Green]

How you doing? So we just did a story on the news that maybe you didn't hear and Joe made a joke about. Well, he asked the question, would we be better off bringing back public handing hangings or not? Yes. And we all had an enthusiastic yes.

[Jack Armstrong]

But we're just hangings.

[Katie Green]

We're just being snarky. Although, was I, was I Pom pom pom.

[Jack Armstrong]

I think the cloaking, the hiding of executions is a bad idea.

[Katie Green]

Well, so are you trying to make an argument against executions or.

[Jack Armstrong]

I'm trying to make an argument in favor of public hangings. Michael, at some point he is going to understand that I am serious.

[Katie Green]

It could take a while. So. At the very least though, the reason I brought this back up is how different and there, there has to be a result from this. You can't have a cultural shift this huge without it resulting in something either good or bad. But it wasn't that long ago. I mean, we broadcast from Northern California and there's a town called Placerville that used to be called Hangtown. And they still have a thing downtown where that's kind of like got a plaque on it or whatever. Is a California historic something or other where they used to hang people. And I've talked to my kids about it before when you look at it. Yeah, they used to. They'd bring criminals out who, who deserved the death penalty and they'd hang them there and everybody gather around and watch. And I don't know if you clapped or danced or sang or cried or.

[Jack Armstrong]

I don't know what people did, but dance. I'd rather not dance under any circumstances, particularly at a hanging.

[Katie Green]

Put me in the noose. I ain't dancing. But that's a major cultural shift. From you watch a man being hung with your child to we can't even imagine it. And of course that's going to have a result. And what do you think the result has been?

[Jack Armstrong]

Well, the deterrent effect of execution is lost. When I was, that's what I was driving toward. If it is so cloaked in secrecy and quiet and, and you just see if you happen to be a news junkie, a reference that the guy who, you know, raped and murdered three women has been executed 37 years after his crime. I mean that has zero deterrent effect.

[Katie Green]

I thought you were making the panty waste liberal argument that if we saw executions and we would understand how horrific they are and be against the death penalty.

[Jack Armstrong]

Need I show you my panty free waist, sir?

[Katie Green]

This is our favorite sitcom from the 70s hanging clip.

[Jack Armstrong]

You see in this country we're very proud to have a process known as the law. And under the law a man is.

[Joe Getty]

Presumed innocent until he's proven guilty.

[Katie Green]

Sure, dad.

[Jack Armstrong]

Right, dad.

[Joe Getty]

In other words, we don't hang anybody.

[Jack Armstrong]

Without a fair trial.

[Katie Green]

Everybody knows that.

[Jack Armstrong]

Sure, but sometimes we tend to forget. Well, I'm glad you understand. I'll see you kids later.

[Joe Getty]

I have to go shopping with your mother.

[Katie Green]

And by the way, Mom's a beard.

[Jack Armstrong]

And by the way, shopping with your mother is a fate worse than hanging. Mike Brady knew that sometimes a hanging was justified.

[Katie Green]

Maybe it's odd that that conversation in a sitcom was seemed normal in the 70s and now strikes us as ridiculous than a sitcom. You'd have dad sit the kids down and say, you know, we don't hang a man unless you say, sure dad. Right, dad. Now I've got to go shopping with your mother after this quick hanging discussion.

[Jack Armstrong]

A quick reference to hanging a man by the neck until death, my eight year old lad. Now you go play in the backyard. I'm off to shop with your mother.

[Katie Green]

In the town I live in. Most kids that age would just sit there wide eyed, crying, sobbing themselves asleep if you had that conversation.

[Jack Armstrong]

Yeah, yeah, I see you.

[Katie Green]

See you. I don't know if I see it as more of the deterrent advantage as well. I guess it is ultimately just a crime and punishment. Just like you do bad things, bad things happen to you. There's a result to live in a life of crime. Here it is. Look at that guy. Dangling, still twitching.

[Jack Armstrong]

Yeah, I have a lot of ambivalence about the death penalty. Honestly, I just. There are certain. You remember we used to have the.

[Katie Green]

Armstrong horse and what? Gold mine. What was that?

[Jack Armstrong]

Claim jumpers.

[Katie Green]

Claim jumpers, horse thieves and claim jumpers. Hang them.

[Jack Armstrong]

All right, Maybe hang them outside the claim jumper, then we can all go in for lunch. Reasonably priced and delicious. Now, I have a lot of ambivalence about the death penalty in general. Just the idea of the government being able to take somebody's life. But when you get. Oh, that's right, I was going to bring up the Armstrong and get a super guilty doctrine where, I mean, just somebody like the guy who set fire to those people in Boulder, he's admitting it.

[Katie Green]

He would be screaming, I'd like to kill more Jews. As the noose tightened around his neck.

[Jack Armstrong]

And his crimes were so completely horrific and, you know, irredeemable. He's suitable for a hanging today. Hang him today.

[Katie Green]

Due process, shmoo, process. That's what I say. We saw it on television, We've all seen it. Hang him.

[Jack Armstrong]

Well, maybe we can come to middle ground on that one. But yeah, I just, Here's a serious point, and I mean this straight from a ticker. The post WW2 era of peace and prosperity, some of the Cold War stuff notwithstanding, lulled us into becoming a very gentle, very soft, tolerant to the point of foolishness society. I mean, tolerant to the point of we didn't lock our doors and we live in the most dangerous neighborhood in the city. Millions of people flooding across the borders. You know, criminal gangs, crime rampant. Progressives who hold bizarre Marxist, Marxist beliefs. Well, some, some understand what they're doing, but some have bought the argument from the Marxists that we ought to turn all the criminals loose because it's not their fault they're criminals. Oh, that reminds me, I've got a really interesting study on criminality coming up. Anyway, the era of that softness is ending and it's going to be ending in ways that are a little tough to take, whether it is the growing threat of homegrown or imported Islamists who are willing to murder Jews or anybody who sympathizes with them. Chinese agents, saboteurs, you know, the threat from China, our whole. No, these, they're just Chinese students and researchers. There are hundreds of thousands of them. And anybody who has any suspicion of them is a racist. Racist. As we wake up to those realities and that's just two of them. It's. It's going to be unpleasant coming out.

[Katie Green]

Coming out of our softness. Yeah, but like, so I was just thinking about this. So people used to go, and it wasn't that long ago, you go watch somebody be executed. I've told this story many times. I, I Was in a relationship with a woman who offered their grade school field trip in a little town in Nebraska. They walked down to the butcher shop. The guy walked a steer in, shot it in front of the kids with a rifle, then cut it up to show him about how, like, where meat comes from.

[Jack Armstrong]

Right.

[Katie Green]

That happens a million times.

[Jack Armstrong]

The guy who just unleashed that screed 90 seconds ago, I'm saying, holy crap.

[Katie Green]

So my thought was the people that went.

[Jack Armstrong]

That was not 1932.

[Katie Green]

No, that would have been, I'm guessing, roughly late 70s. Okay, so I'm thinking the people that in grade school shot us saw a steer shot in front of them or hanging. Damn. Whooping. God. How many of those kids were suffering from anxiety or having panic attacks or, you know, couldn't. Couldn't go outside today because just people were too scary. Now I'm not thinking very many. Yeah, so it didn't. Like, we feel like we're shielding ourselves from these. The troubling things that would cause you nightmares, but we're getting the reverse result. People are scared and anxious.

[Jack Armstrong]

Correlation or causation? Honestly, no.

[Katie Green]

I'm gonna figure it out today. I'm gonna go down to the grade school and I'll shoot a number of animals right in front of the children.

[Jack Armstrong]

Barbaric. Well, it's a start. Yeah. It might be microplastics that's causing all this. I don't know. I suspect it's environmental. Like, you're talking. I'm sorry, like psycho.

[Katie Green]

Well, no, obviously you could be right. But it's not a stretch to think that everybody. That is everybody, being shielded from all the difficulties of life or the reality of life and death are all kinds of different. You know, you can't play in the. No monk, no monkey bars, so you don't get scared. You don't know hangings, no shooting steers, none of that. But everything in between.

[Jack Armstrong]

Vastly reduced employment among teenagers, of course.

[Katie Green]

With that crowd, just like everyday life is horrifyingly scary.

[Jack Armstrong]

One of the smartest things I've ever heard on this topic is you can't possibly become a confident adult unless you've been lost and found your way back twice. And we don't let our kids do that anymore. Wow.

[Katie Green]

Shot a steer in front of grade schoolers.

[Jack Armstrong]

Son of a.

[Katie Green]

Where do you think meat comes from? You panty waist. What does panty waist mean? Means you're wearing panties, you're there for a girl, therefore you're weak. Not a very good term.

[Jack Armstrong]

Then it's fine. Could we, like, work up to the whole, you know, popping a cap in the stairs dome. Could we just maybe watch Butcher cut a side of beef out already dead. Right? Exactly. And the kids who have a particular interest in animal husbandry could perhaps go to the advanced class.

[Katie Green]

Yes, Michael, that reminds me of the Napoleon Dynamite I know. Exactly. Exactly. The bus comes to a stop, that old farmer shoots the cow. The kids in the bus. Exactly.

[Jack Armstrong]

Oh my. What were we talking about?

[Katie Green]

This one got into the onion patch. I didn't get to my topic about men and friends and a bunch of other stuff, so stay tuned.

[Michaelangelo]

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[Joe Getty]

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[Katie Green]

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[Jack Armstrong]

And so appropriate to talk about fathers and sons and daughters because Father's Day is coming up. I know my dad absolutely loves the Omaha Steaks packages we send every year because he doesn't need steaks stuff. He needs deliciousness grilling deliciousness.

[Katie Green]

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[Jack Armstrong]

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[Katie Green]

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[Michaelangelo]

Wasn't that delicious?

[Jack Armstrong]

So good.

[Joe Getty]

Your bill, ladies. I got it.

[Katie Green]

No, I got it.

[Joe Getty]

Seriously, I insist. I insisted first.

[Katie Green]

Don't be silly.

[Unnamed Advertiser]

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[Joe Getty]

Okay. Rock, paper, scissors for it. Rock, paper, scissors.

[Jack Armstrong]

Shoot.

[Katie Green]

No.

[Unnamed Advertiser]

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[Katie Green]

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[Katie Green]

No deaths or illnesses have been reported. I saw on the label or on the News that it was a level one concern, so.

[Jack Armstrong]

Oh, no. Or. Oh, okay, right.

[Joe Getty]

Exactly.

[Jack Armstrong]

What's the concern scale? Does anybody know it? Oh, speaking of which, we mentioned it earlier today, but it seems infinitely clear now. That University of Michigan researcher, Chinese national, and his. His wife smuggled in deadly. Well, not well, deadly, I suppose. Incredibly injurious pathological funguses into the US that appear to be a known agroterrorism agent that could decimate billions and billions of dollars worth of crops.

[Katie Green]

She's a known Communist Party member as a researcher here in the United States.

[Jack Armstrong]

Yeah, it's her boyfriend. I'm sorry, who is the researcher.

[Katie Green]

Yeah, but he, he brought it in and was working with her. He lied about bringing it in. They figured out he was lying. She claimed she didn't know anything about it. Then they came up with emails and texts showing that they'd been discussing it. So. Yeah.

[Jack Armstrong]

And speaking of threats to the homeland, it is now undeniable. And everybody's talking about how the Ukrainian breakthrough attack on Russia with all the drones and the trucks and the rest of it, although it was not quite as devastating as Ukraine was originally claiming, it was still quite, quite notable. And everybody agrees, as the editorial board at the Wall Street Journal says Ukraine's drone strike is a warning for the us The American homeland is also vulnerable to drone and missile attacks, as is everywhere on earth. Another headline I thought was at least worth touching on or referring to. The incredibly just, just shockingly hypocritical Democrats who are celebrating the fact that Elon Musk is criticizing the big beautiful bill. He called it a slight misstep.

[Katie Green]

Jack.

[Jack Armstrong]

Was that the phrase or what did he call it?

[Katie Green]

An incorrigible abomination.

[Jack Armstrong]

Disgusting abomination, yes. He called the big beautiful bill a disgusting abomination. Speaking of the Wall Street Journal editorial board, they make a pretty good point. Whose pork do you mean? Elon Musk. Elon, in criticizing the bill, says, quote, this massive, outrageous pork filled congressional spending bill is a disgusting abomination. He's right. Shame on those of you who voted for it. You know, you did wrong. You know it. Pork filled spending bill asks the Journal what else is new? And they go into, you know, the fact that it always is. There's some good stuff. There could be some better stuff. They're working on the bill and yes, it does overspend. But. But it also ends most of the Inflation Reduction Act's green energy subsidies. Ah, but Mr. Musk doesn't want to eliminate that pork. There's no change to Tax incentives for oil and gas, just EV and solar, he said on X.com last week, retweeting another user post that said slashing solar energy credits is unjust. But what's more unjust is the damage that is done to people's lives during storms and blackouts because ultimately you can't replace a human life. Well, that.

[Katie Green]

But this is what's always so crazy about the Elon Musk thing and then people's views of him. He is a big climate change is an existential threat guy, always has been. That's why he started electric car company and then lefties turns against him because he likes Trump and right wingers embraced him. He's still climate change is the biggest threat once electric cars guy. I mean, just, you know, pick the things you believe in, but you just can't keep switching around.

[Jack Armstrong]

You love him, you hate him, you love him, you hate him, even though he still agrees with you. Final note on this, Mr. Musk is parroting the climate lobby's specious claim that tax breaks like depreciation that are available to all manufacturers are really a special benefit for the oil and gas industry. But it's rich that he is denouncing the House bill for not cutting spending enough, while he is also fuming that it kills green energy tax credits as if they are a matter of life and death for Tesla.

[Katie Green]

Well, he believes it's a matter of life and death for human beings, though. That's why he started the company in the first place. So, I mean, he's wants to blast.

[Jack Armstrong]

Us to Mars for when the planet melts.

[Katie Green]

Yeah, he. Exactly. He's an ideologue on climate change, which everybody on the right conveniently forgot, or the left when they decided to hate it. That's why I got flipped off again yesterday in my cyber truck. Almost daily do I get either flipped off, thumbs down, or booed in my cybertruck. It's hilarious, I'm sure. Well, it might happen anywhere. I was going to say it might be because of where I live, but if I lived in the Midwest, it'd just be because it's an electric car.

[Jack Armstrong]

You've got to have a line to yell at them or say to them, roll down your window and say, elon Musk has done more for the environment than anyone else in America with his electric car company. Let's see what they say.

[Katie Green]

Which is pretty accurate, arguably. Yeah, yeah, he's done more for electric cars than anybody in the world, probably.

[Jack Armstrong]

And then when they say, you know, you make an interesting point, Bear Spray him right in the face. No, that is illegal, folks. You can't do that. Don't do that. That was me. A joke from old Uncle Joe.

[Katie Green]

I can't tease the same story for the 50th time, can I? I'll finally get to it. Is there a crisis with friendship and males in this country?

[Michaelangelo]

Armstrong and Getty. The last thing anyone wants is to leave behind confusion, stress or worse, family conflict. That's why estate planning isn't just for the wealthy. It's for families like mine and probably like yours. With trust and will. I created my estate plan in minutes. From naming guardians for my kids to putting our house in a trust to avoid probate. Fast, affordable and way easier than I thought. Every plan is designed by estate planning attorneys and customized for your state. Plans start at just $199 and include essentials like healthcare directives and power of attorney. With Trust and Will's bank level security and built in privacy protections, your personal information and your wishes stay safe. Whether you're newly married, raising kids, caring for aging parents, or just want peace of mind, trust and will makes it easy to protect what matters Most. Go to trustandwill.com, use code RADIO at checkout and save 20% on your personalized plan because there's no better time to protect the people you love. Trust and Will is an online estate planning service. See website for details.

[Jack Armstrong]

And here we have a specimen from the early 2000s. A legacy investing platform. Please don't touch the exhibit, folks. It could crash.

[Joe Getty]

Ready to step out of the financial history museum? At public.com you can invest in almost everything. Stocks, bonds, options and more. You could even put your cash to work at an industry leading 4.1% APY. Leave your clunky, outdated platform behind. Go to public.com and fund your account in five minutes or less. Paid for by Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC. Full [e-mail] disclosures.

[Michaelangelo]

Wasn't that delicious?

[Jack Armstrong]

So good.

[Joe Getty]

Your bill, ladies. I got it. No, I got it.

[Katie Green]

Seriously, I insist.

[Joe Getty]

I insisted first.

[Katie Green]

Don't be silly.

[Joe Getty]

You don't be silly.

[Unnamed Advertiser]

People with the Wells Fargo Active Cash credit card prefer to pay because they earn unlimited 2% cash back on purchases.

[Joe Getty]

Okay. Rock, paper, scissors for it. Rock, paper, scissors.

[Jack Armstrong]

Shoot.

[Katie Green]

No.

[Unnamed Advertiser]

The Wells Fargo ActiveCash credit card. Visit Wells Fargo.comActiveCash terms apply.

[Cindy Crawford]

Now I'd like to introduce you to Meaningful Beauty, the famed skincare brand created by iconic supermodel Cindy Crawford. It's her secret to absolutely gorgeous skin Meaningful Beauty makes powerful and effective skin care simple and it's loved by millions of women. It's formulated for all ages and all skin tones and types and it's designed to work as a complete skin care system, leaving your skin feeling soft, smooth and nourished. I recommend starting with Cindy's full regimen which contains all five of her best selling products including the Amazing Youth Activating Melon Serum. This next generation serum has the power of melon Melonleaf stem cell technology. It's melon leaf stem cells encapsulated for freshness and released onto the skin to support a visible reduction in the appearance of wrinkles. With thousands of glowing five star reviews, why not give it a try? Subscribe today and you can get the Amazing Meaningful Beauty system for just $49.95. That includes our introductory five piece system, free gifts, free shipping and a 60 day money back guarantee. All of that available@meaningful beauty.com busy work.

[Katie Green]

Weeks and weekends can leave you feeling drained. Prolon's five day nutrition program works at the cellular level to rejuvenate you with boxes labeled by day so you know exactly what to eat. Developed at USC's Longevity Institute, this science backed program makes your cells believe they are fasting to support fat loss, skin appearance and healthy blood sugar levels. Feel the difference and get real results in just five days. Get 15% off today plus a $40 bonus gift when you subscribe to their five day program at prolonlife.com iheart that's prolonlife.com iheart so I got this new talkback feature that we're gonna try and we're, we're in the, we're in the what the, what do they call it? The beta phase of figuring out how we're gonna utilize this on the show or whatever. And I threw out the first question to try this out to somebody. This is somebody called in and then we record them and. Or whatever. Because we stopped taking calls years ago for a variety of reasons that listeners would know. So I throw out the question of what do you like about the Armstrong and Getty show?

[Unnamed Advertiser]

Hey, you could be the first.

[Katie Green]

Call it Hitler, Muslim, extremist. That's good stuff. So hey, you could be the first. So, so, so okay, we don't need to hear twice. So, so we're off to a good start. And I again, do we need to reiterate why we stopped taking calls? But apparently this is some more on the question of what do you like about the Armstrong and Getty show? You are my favorite people you make.

[Jack Armstrong]

Me laugh in the morning when I'm.

[Katie Green]

Taking the train to work.

[Jack Armstrong]

I love it.

[Katie Green]

Thank you for being you. I do have to agree. Joe's looks are rough, but then again, he has beautiful hair. Why do you lie?

[Jack Armstrong]

Is it your greed?

[Katie Green]

The best part of Armstrong and Giddy is Katie. And when she was gone for a week, that was like a void I couldn't believe.

[Jack Armstrong]

You make me laugh, you make me.

[Katie Green]

Cry, you make me mad. But in the end, you make the.

[Jack Armstrong]

First three or four hours of my day at least a good, informative day. Thanks, guys.

[Katie Green]

He was paragliding wise.

[Jack Armstrong]

Have a good one.

[Katie Green]

What do I like about the Armstrong and Getty show? I like the fact that you don't take calls. We'll see how this little experiment goes, but I'm not optimistic. Neither am I. Now.

[Jack Armstrong]

Have a nice day, brother.

[Katie Green]

Don't let your meatloaf.

[Jack Armstrong]

All right.

[Katie Green]

Don't let your hot dog stand.

[Jack Armstrong]

Don't let your wrist watch. Okay, that made me incredibly uncomfortable.

[Katie Green]

Me, too. Why? Why did that make me so. Why did you ask that question?

[Jack Armstrong]

All right. We have important things to talk tomorrow.

[Katie Green]

You come up with the question. We'll try it again.

[Jack Armstrong]

Better than that.

[Katie Green]

So I just. I wanted something I knew people would respond to. To get the first one. So. This was in the New York Times the other day. It was an opinion piece, but a lot of fact built into it. The question was, American men are getting worse at maintaining friendships. I think. Have I actually heard this before? Have I heard. Just heard people in real life mention it to me? Anyway, American men are getting worse at maintaining friendships. Is it a lack of time or energy or is it something else? And then getting into some of the details that this person writes. What I didn't know is that American men are getting significantly worse at friendship. A study in 2024 by the Survey center on American Life found that only a quarter of men reported having six or more close friends. That seems like a lot to me. Polling a similar question in 1990, Gallup had put this figure at. Over half of men had six or more close friends. The same survey center found that 17% of men had zero close friends. That was a five fold increase from 1990. The zero crowd went from. Well, it increased five times. Yeah, probably roughly three to 17.

[Jack Armstrong]

Awful. I agree six seems like a lot, but, yeah, zero is too few.

[Katie Green]

The lack of intimacy among male friends may seem normal because it's what we're accustomed to, but it isn't. Until the 20th century, it was not uncommon for men in this country to openly hold hands, sit on each other's.

[Jack Armstrong]

Laps in public parties. Wait, whoa, whoa, wait a minute.

[Katie Green]

Yeah, that happened all the time.

[Jack Armstrong]

Wait a minute.

[Katie Green]

I don't know if I believe this. Until the 20th century, it was not uncommon for men in this country to openly hold hands, sit on each other laps in public parts, and write each other passionate, platonic love letters. You know, my desire to befriend you is everlasting. Abraham Lincoln wrote to his friend Joshua Speed, blah, blah, blah. Herman Melville, who wrote Moby Dick, once wrote. Yes, Katie, you already have a comment. I can tell. I was just gonna say, if this is true, you guys should bring that back.

[Jack Armstrong]

I've ever heard in my life. Oh, kill me.

[Katie Green]

Oh, my God. So is it. Herman Melville once wrote to Nathaniel Hawthorne. What's he famous for? Red Badge of Courage. Not Stephen Crane. What Hawthorne wrote.

[Jack Armstrong]

Anyway, the. The Scarlet Letter might be Kebab Crane.

[Katie Green]

Two. Two famous authors from the 1800s. Melville wrote to Hawthorne that. Hawthorne's heart beat in my ribs and mine in yours, and described their friendship as an. Friendship as an infinite fraternity of feeling. That is not the sort of thing I would write to a friend other than, yo, did you see that game last night? Would be closer to it. Can I sit on your lap in the park?

[Jack Armstrong]

Hey, when we played golf, that was an infinite. What did you say?

[Katie Green]

Fraternity of feeling.

[Jack Armstrong]

Yeah, today, dude, it was fun. Thanks for writing.

[Katie Green]

I gotta know this, Katie. Who's Nathaniel Hawthorne? What did he write? Scarlet Letter. Scarlett there. Joe was right.

[Jack Armstrong]

Congratulations.

[Katie Green]

Yes, today we may see these gestures as homoerotic, but men at the time, gay and straight, talk to one another in this way. I don't know that we have to go back to holding hands as we walk down the street or sitting on each other's lapse. But I don't. I don't. I don't know. But you don't even see grown women sitting on each other's laps. So it's not a male thing. What the hell is that?

[Jack Armstrong]

Is there a lack of seating? Back in the day, Was that what was going on?

[Katie Green]

You absolutely do see women sitting on each other's laps. You do?

[Jack Armstrong]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Katie Green]

All the time. Where? Bars, concerts. Okay. Absolutely. If there's only one chair, do they ever accidentally kiss?

[Jack Armstrong]

Yes.

[Katie Green]

All the time. It's crazy how it happened.

[Joe Getty]

Yes.

[Katie Green]

Okay, well. So I guess I'm wrong about that. I still don't know if that's got much to do with the friendship thing.

[Jack Armstrong]

Something tells me there's a greater point here beyond the Lap sitting in hand holding, though. Right.

[Katie Green]

Well, so. So for the. I have a bunch of questions. Define good friend, close friend. I. I feel like I need a definition on that.

[Jack Armstrong]

Oh, I think we all have one in our heads, don't we? Beyond a companion, you do stuff with, you talk about your lives and ups and downs in a sincere way. If you have to call on them to help you, even if it is inconvenient, expensive or difficult, they'll come through for you.

[Katie Green]

How often do you need to talk to them to qualify?

[Jack Armstrong]

Depends, I suppose. You know, it's. It's funny. This should come up. I missed the last hour of the show yesterday, an unexcused absence which will go on my permanent record. But I had the opportunity to reconnect with a friend who I had not seen in far too long, and because of his travel schedule and all, and I had to, like, go where he was. It's something I had to give. And so I missed an hour of the show, which I never would have done for years and years and years. But I. Because, partly because I'm a little obsessive about this job, I have not prioritized friendships and it has left me a less happy person. So it's funny that this should come up today.

[Katie Green]

Hmm. Do you think that's what people are doing? Men are doing. They're working too much to have friends.

[Jack Armstrong]

Or other entertainment is always there. It's the same thing that keeps guys from going out and finding a girlfriend and, you know, actually having delightful physical relations. They're so entertained, they're on their couch, they don't bother.

[Katie Green]

Yeah, so that's. That's kind of where I was going is just thinking it's probably the same phenomenon of not needing to date or have sex. I mean, if you can overcome the strongest desire that all beasts have to have sex, then you can certainly give up, you know, hanging out with another dude now and then and talking.

[Jack Armstrong]

Yeah, right.

[Katie Green]

For whatever it is that you're doing instead, which I assume is, I don't know, video games, porn hanging out. I don't know what it is, but.

[Jack Armstrong]

Yeah, porn, video games. I think it all is under the awful, evil umbrella of disconnectedness. I've got another big fat article that I've. I've got in my queue to read about, you know, that topic again. I mean, it's just undeniably at the root of so much that's going on right now in. In human society, particularly the Western world again. And we've made this point many times, forgive us if you've heard it before. But the idea that catastrophic plunges in the birth rate are merely interesting is that would not apply if there were any beast on earth that had a catastrophic drop in its birthright. Remember when we scientists would be obsessed with it?

[Katie Green]

Remember when we're getting so many news stories about bees because bees might go away. How about human beings going away?

[Jack Armstrong]

That seems like these.

[Unnamed Advertiser]

Jack.

[Joe Getty]

Ooh.

[Katie Green]

Yeah.

[Jack Armstrong]

So I, I stupid. I'm ashamed of that.

[Katie Green]

I had my. I had my guard up a little bit and still do for it just being a There's something wrong with men story when it's Homo sapiens. Clearly there's something wrong with human beings. We're not getting together at all. So trying to turn it into a wide. Why. Why are men so worried about sitting, you know, being seen holding hands that they don't have friends anymore? I just, I feel like they're going for an angle there.

[Jack Armstrong]

Yeah. That was a particularly New York Times ish. Guys really ought to be able to hold hands and maybe kiss and stuff like that because, you know, traditional masculinity is stupid. It had a bit of a feel.

[Katie Green]

Right. And that's why you don't have friends anymore, because you're too homophobic.

[Jack Armstrong]

Yeah. Right. That isn't it.

[Katie Green]

I don't know if I noticed that it's different than it was decades ago. Like 1990. I was a 25 year old in 1990. So I don't know. It's either a crisis or it's not. Well, but, but again, there is a crisis that people, people in general don't hang out with other people, period. So don't try to make it a There's something wrong with men's story.

[Jack Armstrong]

No.

[Katie Green]

In my mind.

[Jack Armstrong]

No, No. I think it's the canary in the coal mine or the owl or something. I don't know. But because women have so much stronger, generally speaking, so much stronger an urge to build coalitions and social groups than men do. And it's different. I think you're seeing it first among men, especially because. And it's funny, we were talking about this in the context of the Democratic Party trying to understand why they've lost young men and how masculinity and traditional roles have been demonized, especially on the progressive left.

[Katie Green]

Yeah.

[Jack Armstrong]

The things that brought men together traditionally for years and years. And it's funny the New York Times should suddenly be enamored with traditional male roles and the way males acted. A lot of that's gone.

[Katie Green]

Yeah. One note before we take a break. Is Just I was thinking at the gym because everybody. Where is this? I'm sure this is TR for you, Katie, the gym you go to. But everybody wears earbuds. So everybody's got earbuds in. And I go to the gym every single day. And I was just sitting there with my earbuds listening to a podcast. Sitting there in between sets the other day thinking, I have been going to the same gym with the same people oftentimes for what, nine months now. I don't know anybody's name. I've never spoken a word to any of these people. You go back pretty wearing earpieces. I think I would know everybody in here. Just because you couldn't help it. I mean, you would, you couldn't help being in the same room with all those people in silence or maybe with a, with a, a jam box playing in the corner that you wouldn't have started up again hot today. And yeah, I know I supposed to go golfing with some friends, but I could. And the conversation starts and now you know, I play. Yeah. And then something happens.

[Jack Armstrong]

Yeah.

[Katie Green]

And you get to know her and everybody know. But now nobody. I have never said a word to a single person at my gym.

[Jack Armstrong]

Maybe are you dog the other day and our neighbor came out with her dog and I shouted a happy greeting intending to converse, but she had the earbuds going and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which I do all the time. I'm not faulting her.

[Katie Green]

No, no, no. Yeah, it works both ways. But anytime I tried to say something like are you done here? Or whatever, so they always gotta pause their device and what was that? So that might have something to do with it. We will finish strong.

[Michaelangelo]

Next, Armstrong and Getty. The last thing anyone wants is to leave behind confusion, stress or worse, family conflict. That's why estate planning isn't just for the wealthy. It's for families like mine and probably like yours. With trust and will, I created my estate plan in minutes. From naming guardians for my kids to putting our house in a trust to avoid probate. Fast, affordable and way easier than I thought. Every plan is designed by estate planning attorneys and customized for your state. Plans start at just $199 and include essentials like healthcare directives and power of attorney. With trust and will's bank level security and built in privacy protections, your personal information and your wishes stay safe. Whether you're newly married, raising kids, caring for aging parents, or just want peace of mind. Trust and will makes it easy to protect what matters most most. Go to trustandwill.com, use code RADIO at checkout and save 20% on your personalized plan because there's no better time to protect the people you love. Trust and Will is an online estate planning service. See website for details.

[Joe Getty]

You know what's great about your investment account with the big guys? It's actually a time machine. Log in and zoom. Welcome back to 1999. It's time for an upgrade. At public.com you can invest in almost everything. Stocks, bonds, options and more. You could even put your cash to work at an industry leading 4.1% APY. Leave your clunky, outdated platform behind. @Public.com Go to Public.com and fund your account in five minutes or less. Pay for by Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC. Full [e-mail] disclosures Wasn't that delicious?

[Jack Armstrong]

So good.

[Joe Getty]

Your bill ladies.

[Katie Green]

I got it. No, I got it.

[Jack Armstrong]

Seriously, I insist.

[Joe Getty]

I insisted first.

[Katie Green]

Don't be silly.

[Joe Getty]

You don't be silly.

[Unnamed Advertiser]

People with the Wells Fargo Active Cash credit card prefer to pay because they earn unlimited 2% cash back on purchases.

[Joe Getty]

Okay. Rock, paper scissors for it. Rock, paper, scissors.

[Jack Armstrong]

Shoot.

[Katie Green]

No.

[Unnamed Advertiser]

The Wells Fargo Active Cash credit card. Visit Wells Fargo.com ActiveCash terms apply.

[Cindy Crawford]

Now I'd like to introduce you to Meaningful Beauty, the famed skincare brand created by iconic supermodel Cindy Crawford. It's her secret to absolutely gorgeous skin. Meaningful Beauty makes powerful and effective effective skin care simple and it's loved by millions of women. It's formulated for all ages and all skin tones and types. And it's designed to work as a complete skin care system, leaving your skin feeling soft, smooth and nourished. I recommend starting with Cindy's full regimen which contains all five of her best selling products including the Amazing Youth Activating Melon Serum. This next generation serum has the power of melon leaf stem cell technology. Its melon leaf stem cells include encapsulated for freshness and released onto the skin to support a visible reduction in the appearance of wrinkles. With thousands of glowing five star reviews, why not give it a try? Subscribe today and you can get the Amazing Meaningful Beauty system for just $49.95. That includes our introductory five piece system, free gifts, free shipping and a 60 day money back guarantee. All that [e-mail].

[Joe Getty]

Millions of people have turned to Claude, the AI assistant from Anthropic because it just feels different. Where other AIs often sound a little robotic, Claude has been designed with special research that informs its character. Meaning that Claude Just gets it when it comes to empathy and emotional intelligence. That's why Claude has become the if you know, you know, choice for dating advice, career coaching, gathering your thoughts for those important life decisions, and more. Give Claude a try for free at Claude.com. that's C-L-A-U-E.com and let us know how you feel the difference.

[Katie Green]

We're talking about friendship and whether there's a crisis in men among friendship or whatever. If you didn't hear it, get the podcast. But Jack and Joe. Katie is right. Girls will absolutely sit on each other's laps. We will also sleep in the same bed for girls trips. According to my husband, he would never would men share a bed, ever. Which I really don't understand. This may be part of why guys are losing good friendships because we won't sleep in the same bed. Can we get, why would we get one king when we can get two queens in a hotel room?

[Jack Armstrong]

Yeah. Unless you're bi curious. That's just, it's non starter. I was talking to my wife about this because she will do, you know, girls trips, quilting retreats, whatever, and they'll, you know, if necessary, for a limited, you know, whatever, share a bed. And I'm like, no, no, I'm sleeping on the floor. And Judy's like, come on now. I'm like, no, seriously? Yeah, throw me a pillow. I'm on the floor.

[Katie Green]

Floor. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I'd sleep on the floor. Yeah. See, the sharing a bed thing I.

[Jack Armstrong]

Did maybe in my 20s, but now.

[Katie Green]

I'm on the floor as a grown woman.

[Michaelangelo]

Yeah.

[Katie Green]

Because on the floor or why did, did I share a bed with my friend? Why won't you anymore? I just, my personal space, I value it too much. I don't know, it just weird me out, you know, Is it homophobia to not want to be in the same? Because, you know, if it's a big bed, we're not gonna touch each other.

[Jack Armstrong]

And I, well, I, I, I question the term homophobia, but I see what you're driving at. Yeah.

[Katie Green]

What does make a person, a man, uncomfortable about that? I'm not doing it, but I mean.

[Jack Armstrong]

Because back in the day, you know, they were talking about men sitting on each other's laps and holding hands and, and the rest of it. But unquestionably you would share a bad bed.

[Katie Green]

Yeah.

[Jack Armstrong]

In a hotel. You know, on the legal circuit, you know, there are various gay activists who were trying to pitch the idea that Lincoln was gay because he shared a bed with other lawyers on the circuit. But no, that's just what he did.

[Katie Green]

Yeah, well, my dad grew up seven kids and all the boys would sleep in one bed and all the girls would sleep in another bed. It was just the way you had to do things. Yeah.

[Jack Armstrong]

Yeah. Anyway, that is interesting, though.

[Katie Green]

I don't even know myself why I don't want to do that. It's not like I'm afraid I'm gonna all of a sudden turn gay or they're gonna turn gay or anything, you know? So what is that? I don't wanna.

[Jack Armstrong]

That's why. Don't psychoanalysize. Psychoanalyze me. I just don't wanna.

[Katie Green]

And now Final Thoughts with Armstrong and Giddy.

[Jack Armstrong]

Engage.

[Katie Green]

You know, it's. I got a good story about that. I'll save for the podcast. Podcast.

[Jack Armstrong]

Oh, boy.

[Katie Green]

The one time I did share a bed because it was freezing. And what happened? That'll be in the One More Thing Podcast. Here's your host for final thoughts, Joe Getty.

[Jack Armstrong]

I'm busy that day. All right, let's get a final thought from everybody on the show to wrap things up for the day. There he is, Michelangelo, our technical director. Michael, lead us off if you got. You got to watch the movie Planes, Trains and Automobiles. Steve Martin and John Candy share a bed in that movie and it's quite funny.

[Katie Green]

It is funny.

[Unnamed Advertiser]

Those.

[Katie Green]

Those aren't pillows.

[Jack Armstrong]

Famous punchline, right? Those aren't pillows. Yes. Katie Green, our esteemed newswoman, has a final thought. Katie, what's your final thought?

[Katie Green]

Well, today is my wonderful husband's birthday, so happy birthday, Drew. Fabulous.

[Jack Armstrong]

Jack, any final thought for us?

[Katie Green]

Yes. My son passed his swimming test in Boy Scouts last night. So at the camps he gets to participate in all the swimming stuff. If you don't pass your swimming test, you go to the camps and you stand up and watch people do the swimming stuff, which would have sucked hard. So glad that happened.

[Jack Armstrong]

So, final thought is to anybody else who's done a major house remodel in the last several years, it started with the.

[Joe Getty]

Hm.

[Jack Armstrong]

There seems to be a lot of water penetration here. Who? There's rot. Wait a minute, there's signs of termites. Blah, blah, blah. I think I'm going to be living in a hole in the ground by the time we're done with this.

[Katie Green]

It looks like somebody around here at one point. Armstrong and Getty wrapping up another grueling four hour workday.

[Jack Armstrong]

And rats. So many rats. So many people. Thanks. A little time go to Armstrong and getty.com. many pleasures await you there friends, we.

[Katie Green]

Will see you tomorrow. God bless America. Armstrong and Getty. I will not sugarcoat this. This is a disappointing day for us.

[Jack Armstrong]

I expected more the the catch up of journalism with the mustard of undercover work, but there's no freaking burger.

[Katie Green]

This is insane. So I'm going to get some cheeks after this.

[Jack Armstrong]

Oh really?

[Katie Green]

But you have to pay attention to.

[Jack Armstrong]

The cries that people have.

[Michaelangelo]

It's true.

[Jack Armstrong]

What Now?

[Katie Green]

I haven't said a word, so stop yelling at me.

[Jack Armstrong]

Okay?

[Unnamed Advertiser]

Thank you all very much.

[Jack Armstrong]

Armstrong and Getty the following heartwarming yet.

[Joe Getty]

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[Katie Green]

Work on this car together and when.

[Joe Getty]

I'm gone, I want you to have it.

[Katie Green]

Wow.

[Jack Armstrong]

Thanks dad.

[Joe Getty]

Doesn't count. What you need is a will. Luckily, trust and will makes it easy. Designed by attorneys but customized by you, you can easily create a state specific, legally valid document that actually counts. Now let's let the engine do the talking.

[Jack Armstrong]

Am I right?

[Joe Getty]

Start your [e-mail] use offer code, count for 20% off and make it count. Trust and Will is an online estate planning service. For details, see trustandwill.com and here we.

[Jack Armstrong]

Have a specimen from the early 2000s. A legacy investing platform. Please don't touch the exhibit folks.

[Joe Getty]

It could crash. Ready to step out of the Financial history [e-mail] you can invest in almost everything, stocks, bonds, options and more. You could even put your cash to work at an industry leading 4.1% APY. Leave your clunky, outdated platform behind. Go to public.com and fund your account in five minutes or less. Paid for by Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC. Full [e-mail] disclosures want to feel more creative but don't have the right laptop? Lenovo.com can help. Look through our legendary lineup of AI powered PCs and devices and find the one that fits your passion. Our PCs, powered by Intel Core Ultra processors as well as cutting edge AI tools, allow students to focus, learn and create with ease. That's the power of lenovo with intel inside. Plus, college students and teachers can get 5% off their order. Shop now on lenovo.com the future's waiting and it needs you.

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[Katie Green]

You know, some people say that Odoo business management software is like fertilizer, the way it promotes growth and all. But other people say Odoo is like a magic beanstalk because it grows with your company and is also magically affordable. And there's some people who would even say Odoo's individual software programs come together to build the perfect suite. Like building blocks. Well, Odoo is all of these things. Fertilizer, magic beanstalk, building blocks for business. So sign up [e-mail] o d o o.com this is an I Heart podcast.